The Giraud is insanely fast if you aren't only loading insane precision ammo. I borrowed one when I first started reloading and immediately ordered one. I've trimmed somewhere between 40-50k .223 cases. You can just rip through them while watching TV or listening to a podcast. It trims to length consistently less than +/-.001 all day.
Great video John. I love how you are as open and unbiased as you can possibly be. Thank you for all the information you provide. This game isn't cheap and reviews like this are a great help before spending a good chunk of hard earned money. It's greatly appreciated 👍
I certainly try my best. I'm human so you can't remove bias 100% no matter how hard you try but I just try to go over items the way I'd want to watch someone do it and hope it helps.
Please follow up with more long term data on ES/SD. Considering we are using all these tools specifically to lower ES/SD, that in and of itself would be a pretty compelling argument for the Henderson. Also opening my eyes to the importance of trimming.
Maybe not quite 2 Project Farm YT channel level comparison yet, but getting there 🤣. I sure appreciated the time & effort spent to show us the comparison,pro's,cons, & to make it a fair comparison.
Great job. I have had my Giraud for 10 years and have done 25K on it. Love it. That being said, I would be open to try a Henderson. Both have a great amount of appeal. Thanks for sharing the honest evaluation.
Thanks John. I have had a Giraud on order for 3 months... not going to cancel it. Might have been a different story if neck turning was a current option on the Henderson.
Variation in seating pressure could also be a impacted by slight variations in the bullets boat tail, diameter, smoothness, etc. There are many variations as you indicated that are caused by us, the previous operations, etc. I wonder if the age of the cutter in the Giraud could have anything to do with it. From using a lot of carbide lathe tooling, I can tell you that everything wears out. Unless we have a lab with equipment that allows us to standardize every operation this is about as good as you are going to get. Nice job John. One thing I would like to see, is how much difference there is between the Henderson and say the Lyman Express Trimmer that you featured in another episode. Might help explain the value or expectations.
Thank you very much John. As you might guess, some of us can not afford those nice tools and hope to learn something from you generously sharing with your followers. As I suspected the Henderson looks more precise in that trim/chamfer. If I am looking at this correctly, the AmpPress is showing the difference. The amount of difference where the line starts on the graph is much narrower than with the Giraud. That spike hmmm.. Is the chamfer angle the same with both trimmers? ohhh wait, you spun necks on the mandrel. hmmm
Been using the Giraud for years producing very accurate ammo. I think the biggest difference between the two is what you pointed out; the Giraud indexes off the shoulder and the Henderson the base of the case. I suspect the spike in the seating pressure is because the Henderson rotates the case mouth on a mandrel and the Giraud does not. I think a worthwhile addendum to this test would be to run the expander back through both sets of brass and then see of the results are not more similar. And, are you lubing the inside of the case mouth with the Henderson? I cannot help but think the mandrel in the mouth of the case on the Henderson is completely responsible for the bullet seating ease. Not saying it is good or bad only that it is the obvious difference. I would also be interested in the overall case length of the Girauds as compared to the Hendersons. The shoulder bump and case prep is far more important using a Giraud since it indexes off the shoulder.
John, thanks for this video! Just got done trimming 462 6mm GT cases using a WFT in my drill press and my hands hurt holding onto cases in the 18 degree temperature of my garage. 🙃 Then chamfer and deburring in the house by hand... order placed and I am looking forward to see how much this will change my ES/SD.
@@FClassJohn I went with the Henderson primarily because it's obviously quieter, bullet diameter specific rather than shoulder and bullet... and your seating pressure test at the end finalized my decision.
John, you are a star...just ask Erik. He constantly tells us to watch your channel. I ordered a Giraud about 6 weeks ago. Still waiting, but when you ask every shooter on the F-Class line which trimmer they use, and they all respond, "Giraud", well then that's what Ima gettin. I really look forward to never having to chamfer and debur separately again.
Love watching these videos even though my financial status doesnt allow me to get one of these. I was using the trim pro 2 for a year and worked good, but noticed it really destroyed the inside of the neck. Made a crazy U shape on one side and didnt touch the other side. Ended up getting the lyman xpress trimmer, and so far its a solid unit. Dont really have much time on it yet but initial setup ane trim was easier and better vs the trim pro. Also like the idea of indexing off the shoulder vs the base.
Yes, I totally agree. The depths of the inside chamfer, and the amount of material removed for de-burring the neck can be excessive with some other 3 way trimmers, depending on the factory carbide cutter settings. Would have been great to see a closeup of the neck for both units.
Which method of trimming produces the best effect on target for you? The Giraud method makes more sense to me since it is determining actual neck length vs. the shoulder instead of overall case length with the Henderson. If you neck/shoulder length is consistently cut to the same length, you are essentially eliminating neck tension variations due to a longer or shorter surface area the bullet contacts. So, even if you have different case lengths, when the firing pin strikes the primer, forcing the cartridge forward in the chamber, the bullet will still have consistent take off from the neck. The Henderson method only determines COAL, meaning that your neck lengths will inevitably vary. In this case, when the firing pin strikes the primer and forces the cartridge forward into the chamber, the bullet will have varying take off surfaces because the necks will be different lengths. I have no idea to what degree these variations will translate to on target. Have you seen any difference?
I am stuck between trying to upgrade my rcbs trim pro and just diving into one of these. I'm going to start trim chamfer debur every case every time so I definitely want an all in one process. I do 17, 22, 30 cal now and might add more so the extra cartridge tooling cost starts to even out the price
Only downside to the Giraud is that I can do 1k in a little over an hr which by then I get blisters on my fingers haha. Thanks for the great comparison as this will save me alot in not buying the Henderson.
I use the "Dead on case trimmer" for some time now (easy to set up). Does not chamfer but I like a very small chamfer so secondary ID/OD manual ok (set up for different cases or calibers seem like pain for 3 way trimming cutter). Cheap drill press off CL, reloading is fun again!
I’m surprised you didn’t mention how you can automate the Giraud 😉. That was a huge selling point for me, honestly. And after watching this whole video, I’d make the same decision again on going with the Giraud. Both are obviously great machines though. Nice work on this video, John.
I own a Giraud And me and a buddy of mine were talking about how come there isn’t an aftermarket handle or something made for this unit. Hawkeye What do you mean by automated can you elaborate I already have the machine the unit that goes on my desk I didn’t think you could get more automated than that can you elaborate
Great video series. The question is how do the loaded rounds compare on the 21st Century shoulder to ogive measurements? Is that more important to have case length vs shoulder to neck?
i do not like that you measured the distance of the neck to the mouth of the case on the giraud since I am using the trimmer for overall case length and not distance form neck to mouth but a great video. thank you for the time you put in. I defiantly am going to order the henderson. and i subscfribed
Measuring the case for overall case length on the giraud doesn't make sense because it is shoulder referenced. This means that case rim thickness can impact the result if you measure the overall case length, also inconsistent shoulder bump can impact it as well. For example, the giraud could be trimming perfectly everytime but if you measure the entire case you could still see variance due to case rim thickness, or a variance in shoulder bump. This isn't the case with the henderson because it is actually trimming the overall case length to your setting.
Thank you John - really appreciated the thoroughness and objectivity you put in this test. In addition to knowing that these two units are both very good for their intended use, what I found interesting are: (1) the differences in the traces from the press - I would attribute this to differences in cut angles for the chamfering of the inside neck: obviously with the Giraud, the bullets needed more force to be pushed when inserted through the neck (I also found big first bump in the trace when testing the AMP press with brass with no chamfering at all); and (2) the differences in ES. For (1), it would be great if could post close-up pictures of the neck mouth after trimming with each trimmer. I am guessing that differences in cut angles should be visible to the naked eye. For (2), I am wondering how the ES would compare if you remove the round that showed a tighter ID neck on the Giraud sample (the round with the large first spike on the AMP Press). Good stuff John! Thanks again for this test.
I'm glad you enjoyed the video and I think you're spot on with your assumptions. As I've told others, I don't think it's the Giraud's fault as much as it had a different adjustment on it at the time but there is a light difference in the cut angle either way which does of course make a small difference as well.
I have had the Giraud for a long time now which is a good trimmer but I like the Henderson Gen 3 better. It puts a more precise bevel on the case. The Giraud did not leave as concentric of a bevel on the inside of the case. I use the collet that came with the Giraud and not a custom one made from a reamer. This can be seen on initial seating pressures with the AMP Press. I am also getting even more repeatable trim lengths with the Henderson (less than + or - .001"). They have also redesigned the motor to a single speed motor that is very a sleek compact design. Very Smooth.
Hi John, great comparison! Do you have a idea why the sd and es is so much lower? I checked the chamfer angles and the Henderson is 14 and the giraud 15 degrees. I can’t image that this one degree does the job. Is it possible that the giraud is set to do less a chamfer as the Henderson?
HI John - thanks for the great review/comparison. WRT to repeatability, in addition to the far more wonky method of measuring the Giraud, another factor is the precision of your shoulder bump when sizing. Since the Giraud trims based on the shoulder (vs OAL for the Henderson), your sizing will have an impact, no? PS - Ooops, just watched a few more minutes and see you addressed this! haha
A borescope video of the case mouths would have been interesting. With that much difference in seating force there is likely a visible difference… perhaps visible chatter. Also… is the blade worn on your giraud?… potentially affecting results? Your henderson was newer. Cheers!
Have you assessed how square the case mouthes are? Wondering if that may be some of the variance in length until you spinned them. Non-square necks are the main reason I start with a powered trimmer and then finish with a WIlson hand trimmer. Granted both of those are way above the other powered trimmers that I have used, but would love to get any thoughts
Honestly no, I've never thought about it. I've been happy with the Giraud and how it's trimmed and definitely happy so far with the Henderson so it never crossed my mind.
@@FClassJohn I watched your video again and pulled the trigger on the Henderson. WAYYY more than I ever thought I would spend on a trimmer, but I timed myself trimming with my current method and came out to over a minute per case on average to power trim, precision trim, chamfer, debur.... Granted these were on cases that were longer than they should be-- but my hatred of trimming has kept me from trimming very often on my practice brass. Thanks so much for approaching as you did. From your video, I have to take that the case holder and guide provide a more square case mouth. Dollars spent = much time given back to me. And now ALL of my brass will get the attention it deserves. Great video. Thanks again
Thanks for this review. I think since neck turning isn’t on n my future, I’ll go with the simplicity of the Giraud. With the Whidden click die, I should be able to buy a 6.5 setup on the Giraud and then then just dial out for 6mm CM as well, right?
Thank you for the very informative video John, I like watching your videos. I have 2 questions- 1) do you think that initial seating pressure spike or lack there of is caused by the Henderson using a pilot? 2) you measured the giraud brass off of the neck, how consistent do you think it would be if you measured off the case head? I know that’s not what you indexed off of for trimming but curious to see consistency there. Hey, we measure primer seating depth off of case head but index off of rim! Thanks again for your cool videos!
Thank you for the kind words. As for 1)not sure, maybe the pilot does a little but I think that entry force is more dictated by chamfer and neck tension. 2)I've measure OAL after the Giraud and it'll vary just a little about the same and any variance of shoulder to mouth variance.
Hi John, I’m looking at buying one of these but which one. Now, the Henderson drives onto a pilot so would you trim before sizing or do you get a smaller pilot so you can trim after to sizing .The giraud you can set the cutter to what ever you want so you can trim before or after. Your thoughts on when to trim will be greatly appreciated
Ate they both cutting with vld angle? Im getting more seating force at the beginning of seating with vld cut angles, thinking its do to more surfacearea between bullet and neck with vld angle like you got with Rhen geraud.
Thank you for doimg this! Two questions, are those groups really at 600 yards or did I misunderstand. Secondly, what seating die is that you are using?
Thanks, I realize you are great shooter, but thought that would be rather inpressive even at 300, atleast compared to me and my STR200. Thanks again for the great video!
@@wathaet1386 Thank you. Typically I look for something 1/4moa or less at 100yds (all one hole). These groups were pretty bad all things considered but they can't all be winners and I didn't want to mislead anyone so I showed the actual groups. I just got new barrels yesterday and will be working them in this week and by next week they should both be shooting close to .15" groups after powder, seating and tuning. I'll get some video showing the process.
Would love the Henderson but the adjustment screw to set the cartridges is a little draw back. Giruad is my preference but will not be cheap getting it to Australia
John - many thanks for doing this review. We varmint hunt and shoot a lot of brass and I have been looking for a "all in one" trimmer. I have used all of the popular ones, but the handling of brass multiple times is tedious and a time sink. One thing that I am curious about is the Giraud seems like it would be tiring if trimming a lot of brass (500+) at a time versus the Henderson where you are not holding the brass in your hand, but affixed in the tool. Can you give me some thoughts about that? Thanks in advance.
For me personally I find it less tiring to use the Henderson then when I was using the Giraud. It’s just a different kind of use of the hand but for me I find it more comfortable and not as tiring on my wrist.
@@FClassJohn - thanks John. That was my thought as well. I have used the typical hand crank trimmers and even a (dare I say it) Lee and having to hold the brass against the cutting head is tiring when trimming large quantities. I think the Henderson is what I have been looking for.
What I want to know is did you use the Giraud to trim the bullets you loaded into the Henderson trimmed brass, and now that you don’t have the Giraud do you have a different tool for meplat trimming or is meplat trimming not a part of your process?
I did try trimming bullets on the Giraud for a little while and I've trimmed on other systems as well but honestly it's just not part of my process right now. I only point.
On the Henderson, How confident are you on squareness? My flags go off looking at a motor hanging off the back end, the cutter turns instead of the case turning rotationaly. Seems like a easy way to get a non square “even” chamfer? It would seem that ruing in the vertical position would be better? I am also curious about a possible new ID/OD necker turner from Henderson. This looks like a nice piece, but it may have a inherent design flaw of maintaining and repeating bore parallelism or chamfer squareness.
It's probably a valid question but I'm not worried about it honestly. As for an inside/outside option I think he has talked about working on something but I have no idea where that idea is at.
Thank you for your review. After watching this I really into buying one from Henderson. But can not quite figure out the steps of my reloading procedures. So a Henderson requires prior to cutting have all cases sized and then necks opened up with mandrel to fit onto pilot and then resized again to desired neck tension? Is that right?
Typically you'd only need to size once. You would size your brass, then expand the necks with whatever mandrel size you use and then trim. Then you're done.
Maybe I missed it, but why didn't you measure both batches the same way? You are measuring the case overall length, right? Why do you use a different method of measurement? The seating pressure measurement using the AMP press may not be reliable when doing a direct comparison. This is because the cutter blades of the respective trimmers can be adjusted to different angles causing measurement variability. I've tried both trimmers and have experienced this. Adjusting the blades does result in different in seating pressure.
Hey John I was wondering if you could fill me in on the neck adjustment did you have on the giraud I’m setting up my dream bench and knowledge is greatly appreciated as I want to get things right the first time with what I believe the right way is. If you could give me information on that giraud holder with .001 adjustment and how you use it varying cases I’d appreciate it.
What would you guys recommendation be for bulk “range brass” prep. I would like to get one of these two bc I also shoot precision rifle but I process quite a bit of range brass (as safely as possible) for 5.56, .300 blk, some 7.62 (gas gun brass) etc…. I use alpha munitions for my precision stuff but at 1.08ea not going that route for carbine stuff. I have also looked at the Dillon and FA options but kinda keep coming back to these two. Load .204 ruger - .338 Lapua. Thanks for any direction!! Great videos Also do 45-70 and 375 big bore but figure I’m relegated to hand trimming for those!!😊
At the most basic, the Giraurd will get incrementally more expensive every time you add a cartridge while the Henderson largely stays the same since the Henderson uses a collet systole and pilot so you can do a lot of cartridges with minimal cost difference. The Giraud requires a different holder for every cartridge. Both a good systems and both can work for people, just take a look and figure out which looks like it would fit for you the best.
As a new reloader... I'm wondering what is more important: 1. The measurement of brass OAL (Henderson) or 2. The measurement of the neck length (Giraud). It seems to me that the Henderson cutting the overall length would be pretty important if nothing else in terms of ability to verify accuracy.
I’m curious if the pilot on the Henderson cutter is leaving marks on the inside of the neck. I use to use a RCBS trimmer that used the same style shell holder and piloted cutter, I also tried their three way cutter and both left marks inside the neck.
@@ajgraf122 I now own a Henderson and love it! .308 cases are FL sized in a SAC die with a .3065 expander and there are no marks left on the inside of the necks. I have 1000 cases through this trimmer with no issues.
If I have multiple 7mm cartridges I shoot, will the "caliber conversion cost" be significantly higher on the Giraud since I need a guide for each to index off the shoulder? Or am i misunderstanding the setup of the Henderson? Nice video.
Yes that’s correct. The Giraud needs a guide for every caliber whereas the Henderson only needs one cutter per caliber and that’s all because the collet system hold the brass. It doesn’t care which 7mm you’re trimmer for instance as long as the collet can hold the base.
Hey John, did you size the cases in the same order with both trimmers? Or have to use a special step to open up necks for henderson? I know you mentioned something but forgot, I’ll rewatch, thanks for great videos
@@FClassJohn but im wondering did you size before trimming on both the Giraud and henderson cases in this video? The ones you did the amp press test on? Id be curious if just the order difference would change the seating force results
I’ve owned one but it’s really not a fair comparison because the Dillon is basically an end mill so you still have to chamfer and deburr some other way. Whereas the Henderson and Giraud both trim chamfer and debur all at once.
Unfortunately Henderson deosn`t make sped adjustable version anymore. It is constant 1700rpm motor available only. Was thinking if you just debur brass lower rpm would ne better. In that case Giaurd might be better option, but driver/seating die isn1 great. Is anyone knows where I can get something similar as John has ? Just want upgrade factory one comes with Giaurd.
I bought the Henderson based on how much quieter it is. I can’t stand to be in the reloading room with loud noise anymore. Losing my hearing pretty rapidly.
No, there’s no expanding man roll. The only force applied is with your hand and that would never work properly to expand anything. You need to make sure you expand Before trimming so that it fits properly.
Giraud immediately wins for me, since they have the option to trim .416 Rigby, 8x57 Mauser, and other cartridges that imma use but Henderson cannot trim
There's basically three levels of ammo at a match. Blow-offs, which are round that have bad bullets or something just wasn't right but they work fine for fouling a barrel. Sighters are bullets that are just about perfect but I don't want to shoot for record so they are used to get the gun sighted it. Record rounds are as perfect as possible.
why would you measure the brass lengths using two different methods? You could of done base to neck measuring on the giraud trimmed brass, or used the same adapter to measure the henderson trimmed brass to have a consistency on the measuring methods.... that's just adding an inconsistency on your measuring method, hence only hurting when trying to compare overall trimming lengths or differences of
The reason I used two different methods is that each one cuts using a different process. I measured overall length because that’s how the Henderson trims and I measured off the shoulder because that is how the Giraud trims.
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I bought a Henderson and it drastically reduced my brass prep time. I'm completely happy with the unit.
Glad you like it and it's helpful for you.
The Giraud is insanely fast if you aren't only loading insane precision ammo. I borrowed one when I first started reloading and immediately ordered one. I've trimmed somewhere between 40-50k .223 cases. You can just rip through them while watching TV or listening to a podcast. It trims to length consistently less than +/-.001 all day.
Plus or minus .001 is a total possible variance of .002
@@SCORESHOT990 Thanks Einstein.
Great video John. I love how you are as open and unbiased as you can possibly be. Thank you for all the information you provide. This game isn't cheap and reviews like this are a great help before spending a good chunk of hard earned money. It's greatly appreciated 👍
I certainly try my best. I'm human so you can't remove bias 100% no matter how hard you try but I just try to go over items the way I'd want to watch someone do it and hope it helps.
Finally a good in depth comparison on the tubes between these two. Thank you John!
But damn it I still want both.
Thank you and I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Please follow up with more long term data on ES/SD. Considering we are using all these tools specifically to lower ES/SD, that in and of itself would be a pretty compelling argument for the Henderson. Also opening my eyes to the importance of trimming.
Maybe not quite 2 Project Farm YT channel level comparison yet, but getting there 🤣. I sure appreciated the time & effort spent to show us the comparison,pro's,cons, & to make it a fair comparison.
Thank you. I appreciate the kind words.
Great job. I have had my Giraud for 10 years and have done 25K on it. Love it. That being said, I would be open to try a Henderson. Both have a great amount of appeal. Thanks for sharing the honest evaluation.
Thank you.
Good comparison. I've had a gen 2 Henderson for 3 years now and love it. I have no experience with the Giraud.
Great video! Thanks for the attention to detail and unbiased opinions.
Thanks John. I have had a Giraud on order for 3 months... not going to cancel it. Might have been a different story if neck turning was a current option on the Henderson.
Both great units and I have no doubt you'll love it when you get it.
Great explanation of both trimmers.
I have ordered the Henderson after this video. Chamfering and deburing by hand has sucked.
Variation in seating pressure could also be a impacted by slight variations in the bullets boat tail, diameter, smoothness, etc. There are many variations as you indicated that are caused by us, the previous operations, etc. I wonder if the age of the cutter in the Giraud could have anything to do with it. From using a lot of carbide lathe tooling, I can tell you that everything wears out. Unless we have a lab with equipment that allows us to standardize every operation this is about as good as you are going to get. Nice job John.
One thing I would like to see, is how much difference there is between the Henderson and say the Lyman Express Trimmer that you featured in another episode. Might help explain the value or expectations.
Thank you very much John. As you might guess, some of us can not afford those nice tools and hope to learn something from you generously sharing with your followers.
As I suspected the Henderson looks more precise in that trim/chamfer. If I am looking at this correctly, the AmpPress is showing the difference. The amount of difference where the line starts on the graph is much narrower than with the Giraud.
That spike hmmm.. Is the chamfer angle the same with both trimmers? ohhh wait, you spun necks on the mandrel. hmmm
Somehow, I missed this video, I had to go back and check. Thank You John. 👍👍👍👍👍👀😎
Great video. Subbed to patreon just to support you and encourage more approaches like this. Thanks.
Thank you so much!!!
I just bought the giraud tri-way trimmer. Can't wait to use it
Do you shoulder bump your cases or Full Length size before trimming
Been using the Giraud for years producing very accurate ammo. I think the biggest difference between the two is what you pointed out; the Giraud indexes off the shoulder and the Henderson the base of the case. I suspect the spike in the seating pressure is because the Henderson rotates the case mouth on a mandrel and the Giraud does not. I think a worthwhile addendum to this test would be to run the expander back through both sets of brass and then see of the results are not more similar. And, are you lubing the inside of the case mouth with the Henderson? I cannot help but think the mandrel in the mouth of the case on the Henderson is completely responsible for the bullet seating ease. Not saying it is good or bad only that it is the obvious difference. I would also be interested in the overall case length of the Girauds as compared to the Hendersons. The shoulder bump and case prep is far more important using a Giraud since it indexes off the shoulder.
A paint key works great on a case as a extractor. I keep one in all my range bags.
Great video F-Class John , it was a very informative comparison of the two best trimmers going around.
Thank you and I’m glad it helped.
I just watched your great video. However, the video didn't show the side by side case photos when you point with your finger. I wonder what happened?
John, thanks for this video! Just got done trimming 462 6mm GT cases using a WFT in my drill press and my hands hurt holding onto cases in the 18 degree temperature of my garage. 🙃 Then chamfer and deburring in the house by hand... order placed and I am looking forward to see how much this will change my ES/SD.
Which one did you decide on?
@@FClassJohn I went with the Henderson primarily because it's obviously quieter, bullet diameter specific rather than shoulder and bullet... and your seating pressure test at the end finalized my decision.
John, you are a star...just ask Erik. He constantly tells us to watch your channel. I ordered a Giraud about 6 weeks ago. Still waiting, but when you ask every shooter on the F-Class line which trimmer they use, and they all respond, "Giraud", well then that's what Ima gettin. I really look forward to never having to chamfer and debur separately again.
Thank you and you’re going to love your Giraud.
Love watching these videos even though my financial status doesnt allow me to get one of these.
I was using the trim pro 2 for a year and worked good, but noticed it really destroyed the inside of the neck. Made a crazy U shape on one side and didnt touch the other side. Ended up getting the lyman xpress trimmer, and so far its a solid unit. Dont really have much time on it yet but initial setup ane trim was easier and better vs the trim pro. Also like the idea of indexing off the shoulder vs the base.
This is a really good informative video. I only wish we could have seen the inside and outside chamfer under a magnifying glass.
Yes, I totally agree. The depths of the inside chamfer, and the amount of material removed for de-burring the neck can be excessive with some other 3 way trimmers, depending on the factory carbide cutter settings. Would have been great to see a closeup of the neck for both units.
Which method of trimming produces the best effect on target for you?
The Giraud method makes more sense to me since it is determining actual neck length vs. the shoulder instead of overall case length with the Henderson. If you neck/shoulder length is consistently cut to the same length, you are essentially eliminating neck tension variations due to a longer or shorter surface area the bullet contacts. So, even if you have different case lengths, when the firing pin strikes the primer, forcing the cartridge forward in the chamber, the bullet will still have consistent take off from the neck.
The Henderson method only determines COAL, meaning that your neck lengths will inevitably vary. In this case, when the firing pin strikes the primer and forces the cartridge forward into the chamber, the bullet will have varying take off surfaces because the necks will be different lengths. I have no idea to what degree these variations will translate to on target.
Have you seen any difference?
AMEN. Same here. Agreed 100%. I have Giraud for that reason also.
The Giraud tri-way for a drill press is a heck of a value for $110; same cutter as the bench top unit.
Trim enough, you may surrender to the Giraud power trimmer and just change out the cutter heads.
I am stuck between trying to upgrade my rcbs trim pro and just diving into one of these. I'm going to start trim chamfer debur every case every time so I definitely want an all in one process. I do 17, 22, 30 cal now and might add more so the extra cartridge tooling cost starts to even out the price
Thanks John fair comparison for both going with the henderson
Only downside to the Giraud is that I can do 1k in a little over an hr which by then I get blisters on my fingers haha. Thanks for the great comparison as this will save me alot in not buying the Henderson.
Excellent, thank you for doing this. For the way I reload, I think the Henderson is best for me but they’re obviously both great
Thank you
I like working off the shoulder of the case instead of oal. Just like the accuracy one gauge you use
I use the "Dead on case trimmer" for some time now (easy to set up). Does not chamfer but I like a very small chamfer so secondary ID/OD manual ok (set up for different cases or calibers seem like pain for 3 way trimming cutter). Cheap drill press off CL, reloading is fun again!
Incredible video, definitely solidified my choice in what trimmer to buy for my new reloading room 😁
Yay! I'm glad it helped.
John, great comparison. The dog barking sounds like my yorkie.
That's my frenchie Stan
Awesome comparison. Have you looked into making any adjustments to smooth out the Giraud? I have one and had to play with the cutter a bit.
Great review and comparison. I think I will stay with my Forster .I don't have that much variation in any of my brass.
That's great to hear and if you're happy with your results there's no reason to change. Sounds like if you do upgrade it would be to the Giraud.
Awesome video
I have been looking at both and this helped out tremendously.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention how you can automate the Giraud 😉. That was a huge selling point for me, honestly. And after watching this whole video, I’d make the same decision again on going with the Giraud. Both are obviously great machines though. Nice work on this video, John.
That's another good point. Glad you enjoyed the video and thank you for watching.
I own a Giraud And me and a buddy of mine were talking about how come there isn’t an aftermarket handle or something made for this unit. Hawkeye What do you mean by automated can you elaborate I already have the machine the unit that goes on my desk I didn’t think you could get more automated than that can you elaborate
Great video series. The question is how do the loaded rounds compare on the 21st Century shoulder to ogive measurements? Is that more important to have case length vs shoulder to neck?
If you read the info on the henderson website I believe it’s a 15 degree chamfer on the inside. There’s also one on the outside
Thank you for the great comparison
i do not like that you measured the distance of the neck to the mouth of the case on the giraud since I am using the trimmer for overall case length and not distance form neck to mouth but a great video. thank you for the time you put in. I defiantly am going to order the henderson. and i subscfribed
Measuring the case for overall case length on the giraud doesn't make sense because it is shoulder referenced. This means that case rim thickness can impact the result if you measure the overall case length, also inconsistent shoulder bump can impact it as well. For example, the giraud could be trimming perfectly everytime but if you measure the entire case you could still see variance due to case rim thickness, or a variance in shoulder bump. This isn't the case with the henderson because it is actually trimming the overall case length to your setting.
Both are nice trimmer’s. Thanks for the video and information
Thanks for watching!
Thank you John - really appreciated the thoroughness and objectivity you put in this test. In addition to knowing that these two units are both very good for their intended use, what I found interesting are: (1) the differences in the traces from the press - I would attribute this to differences in cut angles for the chamfering of the inside neck: obviously with the Giraud, the bullets needed more force to be pushed when inserted through the neck (I also found big first bump in the trace when testing the AMP press with brass with no chamfering at all); and (2) the differences in ES. For (1), it would be great if could post close-up pictures of the neck mouth after trimming with each trimmer. I am guessing that differences in cut angles should be visible to the naked eye. For (2), I am wondering how the ES would compare if you remove the round that showed a tighter ID neck on the Giraud sample (the round with the large first spike on the AMP Press). Good stuff John! Thanks again for this test.
I'm glad you enjoyed the video and I think you're spot on with your assumptions. As I've told others, I don't think it's the Giraud's fault as much as it had a different adjustment on it at the time but there is a light difference in the cut angle either way which does of course make a small difference as well.
I have had the Giraud for a long time now which is a good trimmer but I like the Henderson Gen 3 better. It puts a more precise bevel on the case. The Giraud did not leave as concentric of a bevel on the inside of the case. I use the collet that came with the Giraud and not a custom one made from a reamer. This can be seen on initial seating pressures with the AMP Press. I am also getting even more repeatable trim lengths with the Henderson (less than + or - .001"). They have also redesigned the motor to a single speed motor that is very a sleek compact design. Very Smooth.
Hi John, great comparison! Do you have a idea why the sd and es is so much lower? I checked the chamfer angles and the Henderson is 14 and the giraud 15 degrees. I can’t image that this one degree does the job. Is it possible that the giraud is set to do less a chamfer as the Henderson?
Do both machines use industry-standard tooling? Well done video. Thanks.
HI John - thanks for the great review/comparison. WRT to repeatability, in addition to the far more wonky method of measuring the Giraud, another factor is the precision of your shoulder bump when sizing. Since the Giraud trims based on the shoulder (vs OAL for the Henderson), your sizing will have an impact, no?
PS - Ooops, just watched a few more minutes and see you addressed this! haha
No problem. Glad you enjoyed the video.
I'd like to see AMP curves for brass trimmed via a slower hand method with hand chamfering with a VLD reamer.
Would be interesting to separately polish the inside of the Gerode brass and see if the difference lessens.
Good suggestion. The Henderson pilot is going to modify the neck inside while the Giraud doesn't touch it.
Thanks for the detailed comparison.
Glad it was helpful!
A borescope video of the case mouths would have been interesting. With that much difference in seating force there is likely a visible difference… perhaps visible chatter.
Also… is the blade worn on your giraud?… potentially affecting results? Your henderson was newer.
Cheers!
Excellent video and review of both units. Thanks
Thank you
@@FClassJohn you're more than welcome
Have you assessed how square the case mouthes are? Wondering if that may be some of the variance in length until you spinned them. Non-square necks are the main reason I start with a powered trimmer and then finish with a WIlson hand trimmer. Granted both of those are way above the other powered trimmers that I have used, but would love to get any thoughts
Honestly no, I've never thought about it. I've been happy with the Giraud and how it's trimmed and definitely happy so far with the Henderson so it never crossed my mind.
@@FClassJohn I watched your video again and pulled the trigger on the Henderson. WAYYY more than I ever thought I would spend on a trimmer, but I timed myself trimming with my current method and came out to over a minute per case on average to power trim, precision trim, chamfer, debur.... Granted these were on cases that were longer than they should be-- but my hatred of trimming has kept me from trimming very often on my practice brass.
Thanks so much for approaching as you did. From your video, I have to take that the case holder and guide provide a more square case mouth.
Dollars spent = much time given back to me. And now ALL of my brass will get the attention it deserves.
Great video. Thanks again
Thanks for this review. I think since neck turning isn’t on n my future, I’ll go with the simplicity of the Giraud. With the Whidden click die, I should be able to buy a 6.5 setup on the Giraud and then then just dial out for 6mm CM as well, right?
Thank you for the very informative video John, I like watching your videos. I have 2 questions- 1) do you think that initial seating pressure spike or lack there of is caused by the Henderson using a pilot? 2) you measured the giraud brass off of the neck, how consistent do you think it would be if you measured off the case head? I know that’s not what you indexed off of for trimming but curious to see consistency there. Hey, we measure primer seating depth off of case head but index off of rim!
Thanks again for your cool videos!
Thank you for the kind words. As for 1)not sure, maybe the pilot does a little but I think that entry force is more dictated by chamfer and neck tension. 2)I've measure OAL after the Giraud and it'll vary just a little about the same and any variance of shoulder to mouth variance.
Outstanding John.
Thank you
My Wilson trimmer makes no noise 😅
Hi John, I’m looking at buying one of these but which one. Now, the Henderson drives onto a pilot so would you trim before sizing or do you get a smaller pilot so you can trim after to sizing .The giraud you can set the cutter to what ever you want so you can trim before or after. Your thoughts on when to trim will be greatly appreciated
Cool video John. Thanks. FYI, TH-cam polluted your video with ads, including one for an anti-gun politician, Josh Gottheimer…
Son of a..... Sorry..
@@FClassJohn not your fault. No need to apologize
That was extremely useful data.
Ate they both cutting with vld angle?
Im getting more seating force at the beginning of seating with vld cut angles, thinking its do to more surfacearea between bullet and neck with vld angle like you got with Rhen geraud.
Thank you for doimg this!
Two questions, are those groups really at 600 yards or did I misunderstand.
Secondly, what seating die is that you are using?
Those were only 100yd tests. I honestly don't test much at 600yds. As far as the seating die, I have a custom Newlon.
Thanks, I realize you are great shooter, but thought that would be rather inpressive even at 300, atleast compared to me and my STR200. Thanks again for the great video!
@@wathaet1386 Thank you. Typically I look for something 1/4moa or less at 100yds (all one hole). These groups were pretty bad all things considered but they can't all be winners and I didn't want to mislead anyone so I showed the actual groups. I just got new barrels yesterday and will be working them in this week and by next week they should both be shooting close to .15" groups after powder, seating and tuning. I'll get some video showing the process.
Learning a lot from you, so keep it up!
@@wathaet1386 Thank you. I'm glad it's helpful.
Love my Giraud case trimmer,
Well done, relevant video
Would love the Henderson but the adjustment screw to set the cartridges is a little draw back. Giruad is my preference but will not be cheap getting it to Australia
Either way is a good choice but seriously don't let that screw deter you. It's actually way more accurate to adjust than you'd expect.
John - many thanks for doing this review. We varmint hunt and shoot a lot of brass and I have been looking for a "all in one" trimmer. I have used all of the popular ones, but the handling of brass multiple times is tedious and a time sink. One thing that I am curious about is the Giraud seems like it would be tiring if trimming a lot of brass (500+) at a time versus the Henderson where you are not holding the brass in your hand, but affixed in the tool.
Can you give me some thoughts about that? Thanks in advance.
For me personally I find it less tiring to use the Henderson then when I was using the Giraud. It’s just a different kind of use of the hand but for me I find it more comfortable and not as tiring on my wrist.
@@FClassJohn - thanks John. That was my thought as well. I have used the typical hand crank trimmers and even a (dare I say it) Lee and having to hold the brass against the cutting head is tiring when trimming large quantities. I think the Henderson is what I have been looking for.
What's the clamp down track system on bench? And did u hav to route the table to install? Thnx
It's the Rockler system and can be found here amzn.to/3ppJ6xv
What I want to know is did you use the Giraud to trim the bullets you loaded into the Henderson trimmed brass, and now that you don’t have the Giraud do you have a different tool for meplat trimming or is meplat trimming not a part of your process?
I did try trimming bullets on the Giraud for a little while and I've trimmed on other systems as well but honestly it's just not part of my process right now. I only point.
On the Henderson, How confident are you on squareness?
My flags go off looking at a motor hanging off the back end, the cutter turns instead of the case turning rotationaly. Seems like a easy way to get a non square “even” chamfer?
It would seem that ruing in the vertical position would be better?
I am also curious about a possible new ID/OD necker turner from Henderson.
This looks like a nice piece, but it may have a inherent design flaw of maintaining and repeating bore parallelism or chamfer squareness.
It's probably a valid question but I'm not worried about it honestly. As for an inside/outside option I think he has talked about working on something but I have no idea where that idea is at.
Thank you for your review. After watching this I really into buying one from Henderson.
But can not quite figure out the steps of my reloading procedures. So a Henderson requires prior to cutting have all cases sized and then necks opened up with mandrel to fit onto pilot and then resized again to desired neck tension? Is that right?
Typically you'd only need to size once. You would size your brass, then expand the necks with whatever mandrel size you use and then trim. Then you're done.
Maybe I missed it, but why didn't you measure both batches the same way? You are measuring the case overall length, right? Why do you use a different method of measurement? The seating pressure measurement using the AMP press may not be reliable when doing a direct comparison. This is because the cutter blades of the respective trimmers can be adjusted to different angles causing measurement variability. I've tried both trimmers and have experienced this. Adjusting the blades does result in different in seating pressure.
ultimate fabrication make one for the Henderson?
I don't use inline fab, so I'm not sure. Sorry
Hey John I was wondering if you could fill me in on the neck adjustment did you have on the giraud I’m setting up my dream bench and knowledge is greatly appreciated as I want to get things right the first time with what I believe the right way is. If you could give me information on that giraud holder with .001 adjustment and how you use it varying cases I’d appreciate it.
Here's a video I did on it th-cam.com/video/fqX4-zko32E/w-d-xo.htmlsi=sAmrNRH6Wd9AKCxa
What would you guys recommendation be for bulk “range brass” prep. I would like to get one of these two bc I also shoot precision rifle but I process quite a bit of range brass (as safely as possible) for 5.56, .300 blk, some 7.62 (gas gun brass) etc…. I use alpha munitions for my precision stuff but at 1.08ea not going that route for carbine stuff. I have also looked at the Dillon and FA options but kinda keep coming back to these two. Load .204 ruger - .338 Lapua.
Thanks for any direction!! Great videos
Also do 45-70 and 375 big bore but figure I’m relegated to hand trimming for those!!😊
At the most basic, the Giraurd will get incrementally more expensive every time you add a cartridge while the Henderson largely stays the same since the Henderson uses a collet systole and pilot so you can do a lot of cartridges with minimal cost difference. The Giraud requires a different holder for every cartridge. Both a good systems and both can work for people, just take a look and figure out which looks like it would fit for you the best.
I noticed your reloading room confession guys all have and swear by the Giraud. I think Erik mentioned preferring the Henderson...
Erik uses the Giraud. Me personally I prefer the Henderson but they’re both great units. Just different.
As a new reloader... I'm wondering what is more important: 1. The measurement of brass OAL (Henderson) or 2. The measurement of the neck length (Giraud). It seems to me that the Henderson cutting the overall length would be pretty important if nothing else in terms of ability to verify accuracy.
In the grand scheme of things as long as your sizing is consistent then either method will yield similar results.
@@FClassJohnAnd "sizing" inconsistency (shoulder bump) is a variable that does not effect the Henderson COL. Advantage: Henderson
I’m curious if the pilot on the Henderson cutter is leaving marks on the inside of the neck.
I use to use a RCBS trimmer that used the same style shell holder and piloted cutter, I also tried their three way cutter and both left marks inside the neck.
Depends on whether or not you are expanding the case mouths.
@@ajgraf122 I now own a Henderson and love it! .308 cases are FL sized in a SAC die with a .3065 expander and there are no marks left on the inside of the necks. I have 1000 cases through this trimmer with no issues.
@@Carney556 Absolutely love mine. The biggest single time saving reloading device I have.
Is the chamfer and demurred picture similar to the emperors new clothes??
Oops, OMG I totally forgot to insert those pics. Guess I'll have to make a new video showing that. I'm so sorry. 😬
If I have multiple 7mm cartridges I shoot, will the "caliber conversion cost" be significantly higher on the Giraud since I need a guide for each to index off the shoulder? Or am i misunderstanding the setup of the Henderson? Nice video.
Yes that’s correct. The Giraud needs a guide for every caliber whereas the Henderson only needs one cutter per caliber and that’s all because the collet system hold the brass. It doesn’t care which 7mm you’re trimmer for instance as long as the collet can hold the base.
Hey John, did you size the cases in the same order with both trimmers? Or have to use a special step to open up necks for henderson? I know you mentioned something but forgot, I’ll rewatch, thanks for great videos
I just had to move steps. I used to size after trimming but now I just size before trimming. No big deal.
@@FClassJohn but im wondering did you size before trimming on both the Giraud and henderson cases in this video? The ones you did the amp press test on? Id be curious if just the order difference would change the seating force results
@@zoidelux Yeah I sized both before trimming.
thank yiu very much for the informative video
Do you think the difference in the sound of the machines is because the Giraud is well used and the Henderson isn't?
No, it's been the same since day one.
@f-classjohn after a year of use what do you use more the henderson or giraud?
I sold the Giraud a month or so after getting the Henderson. It’s a still a great unit, I just prefer the Henderson.
Would love to see a head to head with the dillon rt1500.
I’ve owned one but it’s really not a fair comparison because the Dillon is basically an end mill so you still have to chamfer and deburr some other way. Whereas the Henderson and Giraud both trim chamfer and debur all at once.
Unfortunately Henderson deosn`t make sped adjustable version anymore. It is constant 1700rpm motor available only.
Was thinking if you just debur brass lower rpm would ne better.
In that case Giaurd might be better option, but driver/seating die isn1 great.
Is anyone knows where I can get something similar as John has ? Just want upgrade factory one comes with Giaurd.
hi, which whidden click die thing did you buy? got a link? thanks, kevin
It's this one www.whiddengunworks.com/universal-click-adjustable-lock-ring/
I bought the Henderson based on how much quieter it is. I can’t stand to be in the reloading room with loud noise anymore. Losing my hearing pretty rapidly.
I have arthritis and bad thumb pain. Would someone please comment which trimmer is better? Thanks much
With my hands always hurting I've found the Henderson was easier and more comfortable to use but everyone's idea of comfort may be different.
Does the Henderson have an expander mandrel? Amazing if it did expanding too. Not sure how’s that work when spinning
No, there’s no expanding man roll. The only force applied is with your hand and that would never work properly to expand anything. You need to make sure you expand Before trimming so that it fits properly.
Makes sense Thanks
Do you have a link to that Whidden die your using for adjustment on the Giraud?
www.whiddengunworks.com/universal-click-adjustable-lock-ring/
Thanks.
Does the Henderson burr and chamfer at the same time it cuts, like the Giruad??
Yes it does.
Excellent
Brass size has alot to do with what one you buy too.. 556 or 300 blackout kills the fingers after a while.. guess what on i purchased lol
Giraud immediately wins for me, since they have the option to trim .416 Rigby, 8x57 Mauser, and other cartridges that imma use but Henderson cannot trim
Yep that's a totally valid decision point.
What is the difference between your sighters and your other ammunition? Strictly a beginner.
There's basically three levels of ammo at a match. Blow-offs, which are round that have bad bullets or something just wasn't right but they work fine for fouling a barrel. Sighters are bullets that are just about perfect but I don't want to shoot for record so they are used to get the gun sighted it. Record rounds are as perfect as possible.
@@FClassJohn Thank You!
@@billy19461 No problem
why would you measure the brass lengths using two different methods? You could of done base to neck measuring on the giraud trimmed brass, or used the same adapter to measure the henderson trimmed brass to have a consistency on the measuring methods.... that's just adding an inconsistency on your measuring method, hence only hurting when trying to compare overall trimming lengths or differences of
The reason I used two different methods is that each one cuts using a different process. I measured overall length because that’s how the Henderson trims and I measured off the shoulder because that is how the Giraud trims.
Where do you get your Die clicker?
Here's a video I did on it th-cam.com/video/fqX4-zko32E/w-d-xo.html and here's where to find it www.whiddengunworks.com/click-adjustable-sizer-die/
Well...1-3 delivery for the Henderson vs 3 months with the Giraud??? Hummmm
The one that was 4 1/2 to 5 thou was in the negative look at the video again lol
Good stuff!
Glad you enjoyed it