The Different Types of Shmup Difficulty, Why it Can Be Hard To Learn New Styles || Patreon Vid for K
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- This is a $5 patreon topic video for K
/ electricunderground
*Gameplay is Armed Police Batrider (my humble Calice Cup Score)
STG Revision 2020 Discord:
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You know what kills me on older shmups? Ground. The stupid ground.
I'm always forgetting you can just crash in these older games.
Ha for sure! I hate that
Ah the ground, your biggest enemy
Yeah I’m one of those people who like classic shmups more than danmaku shmups. I like power ups and macro dodging enemies rather than the puzzle like nature of danmaku shmups. It’s funny that most of the reasons you’re listing as to why you struggle with classic shmups is why I like them. I do wish there were more classic style shmups being made like raiden fighters jet but oh well. Great video nonetheless.
stuff like infinos gaiden is awesome!!!
My dude! I love raiden fighters jet and aces man, those games are so great and (in my opinion) destroy raiden 4 and 5. I'm putting aces on my shortlist of games to play more in the future.
@@TheElectricUnderground Right!? The raiden fighters games are top notch. I just wish that they'd put them on more platforms like the switch
Seibu Kaihatsu's masterpiece. They saved the best for last.
R-Type Dimensions EX is probably the best version to learn the game on since it lets you start at any level you've reached, and looks & sounds amazing. But honestly, a lot of the appeal is the style, the feel of becoming this armoured dreadnaught, and the skill of getting good with the force orb. If that stuff hasn't already grabbed you, it might just not be your game.
Thank you very much for covering my topic!
It's fascinating how different eras and generations of shmups have very different philosophies on game design, and even in those periods there can be such a difference. From the treatment of power up items to score mechanics and hitbox/speed choices, there's no shortage of differences that teach and require many different skills and approaches to play.
I very much like both modern and classic styles of shmups, from the aggressive fast targeting shots of many older games to the slow and dense weaves of danmaku. Then there's all kinds of things like how powerups are handled, enemy design (through bullet use or placement/volume in stages), boss designs, and score mechanics that have a significant effect on how you tackle each game. The genre has all kinds of cool variety that you don't often get to see elsewhere and I think every spin on how to make something difficult or challenging is really cool.
I think it's also very cool how you can trace the emergence of gameplay mechanics and styles from singular releases that made a huge imact as others came along to refine it further and further. It might be something that happens in every faucet of life, but it's still very fun to see how creative developers can be with a genre that could be as simple as "don't get shot, shoot the other ships".
It is really cool to trace the lineage of shmup game design and what titles originated what mechanics. One of my personal favorites is the Rayforce-lock on mechanic that appears in games like CCWI and ZeroRanger!
I grew up on classic shmups, love'em and danmaku but my heart is always in a good cute'em up
Sexy paradious is my favorite cute'em up! I like the title and the gameplay ha.
Does Neko Navy count as a cute'em up? I'm just crazy about that game, its adorable kitties, and the numerous secrets throughout it.
I am curious, what made cute em up even different? Artstyle is obvious, what else?
Oh, I love so much that stage from Zero Wing where there are tight corridors everywhere and a single enemy just assuredly kills you by shooting TWO bullets into your corridor.
R-Type is one of my favorite all time shmups. You have to look at it more like a puzzle game rather than a shmup. You have to figure out how to solve the problem of getting through the level. You are definitely weaker if you die, but at least for most of the game it is by no means impossible to get through without The Force. You've gotta play by R-Type's rules, not your own.
That makes a lot of sense, that's kind of the impression I got for the game. I'm definitely going to give R-type a second chance in the future. It's popular and well-loved for a reason, so I will return to it in the future.
@@TheElectricUnderground I might suggest trying R-Type Delta. I found that every single checkpoint was beatable and enjoyable from a death, given they will throw you powerups whenever they are required for a section (and I know they are all possible given I'm really bad at shmups and died at all the ones from stage 2 onwards). The arcade games got a little too intense later on in terms of coming back from a death, but in Delta, careful use of the charge up attack and the Force ball thing made the game possible to come back from. It has made me want to try the arcade games again.
Agree with everything you say here. Also older shmups betray their arcade origins to a greater extent. They are all about making sure the player has to pay their way if they want to see the end. Progress in classic shooters is tougher because the machines had to earn their keep. It's probably why they suffer from 1 death syndrome where it's hard to recover from losing a life and power ups. Gradius V addressed that issue by leaving the options on screen on life loss - but that's a console game - not an arcade game. One other thing about bullets - in older games bullets hit me, in modern games it feels like I hit the bullets. :)
@pyongyang gang666 Is it? Didn't know that!!! :) Will have to check out the options in that game again! Thanks. :)
Oh man "in older games bullets hit me, in modern games it feels like I hit the bullets" that a great quote man! I may have to mention you and that quote in a future video because that's a great way to describe the difference!
@@TheElectricUnderground :)
Life force in 87 let you recollect your options. You had to be fast and you did still lose missile and shot power ups but you had the chance
Catching up on the old stuff : great topic ! This is something that I don't see discussed all that often when rating a shmup's difficulty, yet the type of difficulty of any shmup and the skills required can feel more natural to some players than others (depending on their shmupping background). Hence it's best to try out a bunch of different shmupstyles in order to improve general shmup skill :)
Oh that's awesome!! Yes these early topic vids have some gems of info, I might actually go back and redo some of them at some point, just because I understand video making a stuff more these days.
I think another important difference between older and newer shmups (and run'n'guns) is the approach to the shooting itself.
Typically older games have a much lower shot count, slower player bullets, and no autofire, making actually lining up your shots much more important compared to modern/bullethell shooters, where the focus is much more on (micro-)dodging and target prioritization, and the actual shooting can feel like an afterthought.
>Why I love Mushihimesama
Original is still the absolute early Toaplan goodness that it is. The score you get is all the gold (no, not amber)- is all the gold/doritos you collect. The enemies you get free tick points from before destroying and the life bonus from the end of the game. Toaplan 4ever
Maniac is basically if Mushi had a first loop of it's own as a normal CAVE game. i tend to skip over this one in favor of Ultra but it's very good for it to be an option anyway. More power to the players.
Ultra is a pure mesmerizing beauty in bullet patterns and game flow, and is a master in boss design. Everyone feels fun to fight. Including Aki. It's fun to have a TLB that has very dodgeable and difficult patterns only for it to ask you to glitch it out. Even Jaimers' method gets tricky every now and then and the cloud can't decide what it wants to do.
Also yes i prefer Mushi over Futari.
I should start a shmup channel. I'm changing the name of this account.
It is cool how Mushi has that classic style in original mode, it honestly confused me when I first played it. I remember thinking "isn't this supposed to be danmaku?" ha. Also, that would be really cool if you started a shmup channel. If you do let me know and I'll sub :-D
Definitely an interesting topic. There are definitely different types of demands and strains that the variety of shmups put on you.
I feel equally at home with hori/vertical but they are definitely different dynamics aside from the side scrolling danmaku titles.
Talking about older Shmups, I've been trying to play G Darius and it is no walk in the park. Raw dodging definitely not always getting it done, and that bigger hitbox definitely doesn't help the matters.
As far as weapons go, if there is an interesting enough variety of weapons or elements to the core gameplay loop then the game can do without power ups, I will say that power up collecting and increasing your weaponry can be a very satisfying element of the game progression (though the whole lot of the if you die once you might as well start the over hori shooters like R Type and Pulstar definitely make that a two sided affair).
Also just thinking about it, would you say ZR kinda straddles the love between modern and classic summer shooter?
I would agree about ZR, another reason why I like the game so much. Yes it definitely does walk the line joaquin phoenix style, which is why I think it can appeal to a ton of different players.
Dude I still play Blazing Star even though I like danmaku more. It’s just so cool and less stressful than the usual classic shmup
blazing star is stone cold classic
you need to check out cosmic cop from irem thats a great oldschool shmup.
also thundercross II from konami
and rtype leo
could be your alley
Thank you for the suggestions man! Cosmic cop is a cool title, so that immediately grabs my attention. I love Konami so I'll have to check thundercross and I have heard a lot about r type leo so I'll check all of them out ha.
Great video! I can't speak for all older shmups, but for Gradius, from my experience - the home console ones (like 3 SNES) and the original (Arcade or PCE, I personally prefer PCE) are quite forgiving and the easiest way to work with them. Gaiden is also really nice - it has quite some things to help the player, such as allowing you to customize the order of your power up bar, though it does have things like the Moai boss which is really tough, but at least you can try to recover in all of those. In arcade 2, 3 and 4? If you die in the wrong spot later on, might as well restart - and restart you will have to a lot. Each of those three is brutal in their own way and I personally don't like that much. I'd recommend Garudius '95 for the NEC PC-98 - it's a Gradius 3 fangame that is honestly more forgiving than the real deal, but still really tough. It has a more comprehensive edit mode (including unique speed ups, which I have no idea what they even do but it's cool) and the bosses are more like 4 or Gaiden, being more focused on just being fun fights. Also has a stage select (though nowhere near as comprehensive as say, PS2 DOJ or X360 DFK - just selecting which stage you begin at) and a difficulty select. It's very impressive for the system and also really fun.
Also level memorization is important for shmups like R-type and Gradius. You can't get through those games on skill alone. You need to learn a path you are comfortable with that gets you through the levels safely and learn to consistently pull it off.
Great video. Also, my last name is pronounced similarly to "Win" but not a big deal.
Sorry man, I m terrible at pronouncing names correctly, do you mind writing it out phonetically for me?
@@TheElectricUnderground You can just say "Win" and it's fine
I never heard the phrase "raw dodge" before but it works!
ha yeah it's a term I made up (at least if I remember right) for basically dodging on reaction without a plan.
Continuing the topic of subgenres, would you make a little episode about Cute'em Ups? I don't know many titles and i'm sure You can shed some light on them. Love your content, keep it up!
Oh yeah I d be happy to do that, cute em ups are great!
Go back a bit further to games like Alcon/Slap Fight and Terra Cresta to git gud at avoiding being hit when the enemies are actually shooting at you rather than doing these impressive fireworks displays like in the danmakus.
Getting pretty good (for me) at Mushihimesama, though I still can't 1cc the game on novice. Just turned on R-Type Delta for a change of pace... within mere moments I was bleeding from the rectum
Ha delta is a tough one
Yeah my dude, the hitbox struggle is TEH REALZ. Like in Xenon 2 on Amiga, the hitbox is the ship sprite. No forgiveness whatsoever. OMG I hit one pixel = DEAD.
Frankly..... Reality is true : you don't get old ... you degenerate (I'm talking about ME...).
Born in the 70ies, I can't play maniac shooters anymore.... So for me it's simple : back to basis !!
I like a good Xevious, R type and other Axelay. Hell , a good viewpoint and I'm happy !!
Maniac shooters are too much for me : between animation, certain Shmups with no clear-cut color(between the bullets and the background) and the loud music, it's not an easy task to concentrate !!
So I get back on my PS2, Dreamcast, neo geo or Xbox "classic".
I still have a lot of admiration for the nice "perfect" play_through on TH-cam made some very good players....
Too bad that this genre is now dead.... but who knows... Shmups will probably rise again one day !!
Never forget Ikaruga : "I will not die until I achieve something. Even though the ideal is high, I never give in. Therefore, I never die with regrets."
What do you think of Skyforce and Sine Mora and from the old ones Raptor and Tyrian?
I'll have to try them out and see, I've never played them before.
@@TheElectricUnderground Would love to see a video about your thoughts on that. Honestly I am surprised you haven't played Raptor or Tyiran :) watching your channel it never occurred to me. Regardless Great content and keep up the good work!
Omg Tyrian and Raptor! So classic !!
I love Skyforce. I wish there were more shooters like Skyforce.
I am new to Shmups (other than I played Gradius and some Psikyo games)
I honestly don't know which style of gameplay suits me more.
Generally speaking.. I think I find better job dodging bullet on old school Shmup mainly due to I am okay with reacting quick but reading on dense bullet for long time can actually give me some headache (may be I am still trying to getting use to the style)
As for old school shmup tho..it is very punishing at the same time..
As of right now I am trying out every single popular Shmup up to date see which one suits me more..
But anyways good video. It gave me the idea of why do I do good and bad on certain aspects of some shmup.
I'm glad to hear that man! Maybe try out some boaderline titles like batsugun and ZeroRanger, they might help inform your taste since they are in the middle. Maybe even a Raizing game like Batrider.
Great video (as usual). You should try some classic Pc Engine games.There are so many good ones on the platform you would probably find something that fit your play style
Yes, try Image Fight it is kind of like R-Type but vertical
Thanks for the kind words my dude! Any particular suggestions that stand out to you? I'm not very knowledgable on the PC engine, as I tend to gravitate to the Saturn and Neo Geo, but I think it's time to take a closer look :-)
Dunno why but are there people here who started with shmups they don't do well in ? I mostly started with the gradius series which i still kinda liked but i suck at but when it comes to danmaku shmups like the strikers series from psikyo from my childhood or the touhou series i don't really suck as hard. Probably because for me reading bullets are way easier in a vertical bullet hell danmaku rather than a side scrolling bullet hells for my experience
Edit : yeah, the gradius syndrome is mostly what i don't really like about gradius because i basically had to brute force through until i had enough power ups to ge through without getting killed every other times
Yeah gradius syndrome is cruel! I do wonder if the element brought in more or less credits than just continuing without checkpoints, I could see it going either way.
Yeah I started with Gradius V (apart from playing a few of the nes/snes shmups a little back in the day). But I’m still awful at it. Lately I mostly play danmaku and have just recently gotten a 1-all clear on DoDonPachi
I'm always with old school horizontals, not really in to bullet hell...I can play it, but nothing like late 80's to mid 90's horizontals, both in arcade and consoles, I prefer too old verticals like Compile, Toaplan ones much more than bullet hell ones. I don't like that they are usually more difficult than "new" bullet hell but even if I can't finish none I like it more
That's right
YES! :-D
The classic arcade shmups are probably more brutal due to commercial reasons i.e they wanted the games to take as much money as possible in the Arcades. Lots of quarters and pounds needed to clock the game:)
Good video, that's batrider playing for a good bit right?
I've been messing around with some of the later Raizing titles and they are kind of and interesting mix of old school shooter along with more added bullet hell type patterns and hit boxes reduced (thought not cave small I don't think).
Some Classic Shmups are rough. Shit like Image Fight or Zero Wing are brutal as I've experienced recently.
Play that R Type ;).
use the konami code noob
up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, a,b,a,start? Ha that's what popped into my mind.