I know, it looks like one...but it isn't. Close, but no cigar etc. Known as 'Audrey' to its owner, this 1970 Citroën D Special cut out on me during a test drive recently. I'm looking to see if I can get it to recreate this on the dyno using a special mode.
Yeah i had to look up what that was! I somehow think following distance would have been more useful info, but peoples perception of distance varies so much anyway. That dash is a thing of beauty!
I was going to ask about that, because I couldn't locate the index or the scale on the dial. Not that it would help me, because I don't trust my absolute judgement of distance, but time separation seems to work (I find it much easier to count "One hippopotamus, two hippopotamus ..." than judge metres or car lengths.
D special. The D is the D and the S is the S of the first letter of the word Special, so in a way it is a DS. This D Special model was replacing the ID, the DS less expensive sister.
@@bernardchesneau3091 The D series and Renault 20 never shared engines. The D Super 5 used the same engine as the outgoing DS21 (2175 cc) when it became the DS23 (2347 cc). It was the CX and 20 that shared the Douvrin four cylinder engine.
I just came across your channel as I love Citroën, as my parents had a GS the smaller version and air cooled and I did all my early days driving on it! And still miss that little dear!! We had a friend in Belgium that had one of those and it was just magical having a ride in it! Bravo! Good luck too with it!
What an amazing car. It still looks timeless all these years later. It may as well be a DS to me it certainly looks the part. Also I really enjoy how your channel is coming along Keep up the great content 👍
Watching Audrey manoeuvre off the rollers and out of the garage took me back to watching a similar looking car in a mews in Edinburgh many years ago, I was so fascinated by the movement and look of the car I just stood and gawped, and I'd seen several previously. The old gent that drove the car gave me a nod and a wave as he drove off down the cobbles. Such experiences must have been influential to be so vivid decades later.
DS or not it's still a looker eh? I love that you remind the owner. I too have been assigned to remind my friend on a near daily basis that his Dino is not, as he clames, a Ferrari. These things are important!
Well, given it was made by Ferrari, and it does actually have a Ferrari badge on it, it would be a Ferrari. Unless it's one of the very few rare ones that didn't get that Ferrari badge. But that would still be a Ferrari. Because it's a Ferrari.
@@L5GUK no Ferrari badges on his example. Came from the factory that way. I know who built it obviously. If we apply the true chassis makers name to every car then we would be in a world of shit eh? Bet if you drove a lexus you wouldn't refer to it as your Toyota.
@@Klutch58Customs What team did the Dino cars race under in LeMans/F2/Sports Cars? I'm not sure I ever heard of a Dino racing team (except for the old video game, but that was about dinosaurs). Not Ferarris racing in the Ferrari factory racing teams 🤔 Also not aware of any Dino dealerships in period either, but I will admit I'm in my 30s, so happy to be shown otherwise; certainly would be interesting. To put it frank, the snobbery within car loving communities is obscene. Dinos are Ferraris. Your mate has a Ferrari.
@@L5GUK I wouldn't be too hurt about it. I genuinely couldn't give a toss. He could call it a Lada for all I care. I don't need schooling on Ferrari but thanks anyway. I finished my mechanic's apprenticeship on Italian sports and racing cars probably around the time you were born!
Interesting... I've owned a number of D series cars, the best being an automatic Pallas. Those engines are capable of being tuned to well over 110hp. More than that and it all gets very expensive. Whether it's the video sound quality or not, I don't know, but that engine sounded pretty rough. Being 54 years old will account for some of it of course, but those engines were made to be very smooth and quiet. I'd suggest a thorough overhaul to bring the car back to its original excellence. When the "Diesse" (DS) was launched back in 1955, it was hailed as being 25 years ahead of its time. In my opinion, the DS is still ahead on design and comfort. Only the engineering hasn't kept up. Brilliant cars!
I would be surprised if the breaking down problem isn't carburettor icing. As exhaust emission legislation in the USA began to bite carb manufacturers around the world went back to the drawing board in an attempt to reduce emissions and many decided moving air faster through the carburettor would be easy answer number one as it would create smaller fuel droplets so the fuel charge would have a greater surface area and give a more complete burn resulting in lower tailpipe emissions. The result of this was to increase the risk of carburettor icing necessitating the need to warm the air entering the carb, an arrangement that often fell quickly into disrepair and became ineffective. The surprising thing is the weather didn't have to be particularly cold and the right combination of cool and damp mostly did the trick and manifested as a progressive loss of power until it was pointless continuing. Once stopped, the heat from the engine quickly melts the ice and the engine can be restarted a few minutes later...
The hubcap reminds me of a time when I made a very slow eight mile journey looking for the cover for my trailer, which I forgot to lash down. It turned up seven miles later and a mile from home - and some kind soul had tied it to a thorny bush to stop it blowing away again...!! At least it wasn't in a ditch or the middle of a field.
@@ianelliott229 interesting to me naturally, my business man Grandfather had the first Citroen Avant sold in the U.K. (in the late 30s early 40s) evidently that car was the first mass- production car to have front wheel drive ( I believe ). The French were clearly extremely innovative in those days!
A dream of mine is to own a D or DS one day. A slightly feverish dream is to get the Welsh lot to mod it to electric. And then glide long like on a magic carpet! First time I saw a video of yours, your introduction alone was worth a sub 😂
The original car names (DS and ID) were not acronyms. They were French language puns. "DS" is pronounced Déesse ='goddess'. "ID" is pronounced idée = 'idea'. Henri Citroen was a clever guy.
Good chance it's the ignition coil. Insulation inside breaks down when the coil gets hot and you lose spark , coil cools down and it all works again. This kept happening to my MGB and eventually I figured it out
May be totally irrelevant, but in the early 1980s I had a CX ‘Athena’. I had many trouble free miles out of it but it develop a frustrating habit of power fading off until I was compelled to stop. After a few minutes of standing it would immediately start again and run perfectly (until the next time - it happened quite randomly). The local Citroen dealer was useless with ideas and eventually an auto engineer friend took it off my hands. Around 2004, I met a chap who had run Citroens for years, including a CX estate - model I can’t recall. He had the same experience. It was resolved by re-torquing the cylinder head, the studs apparently ‘stretching’ slightly under some conditions.
I had to look it up in my old books: -ID19 is supposed to have 84 SAE HP -DS19 : 90 SAE-HP -D Special (1985cc) 99 DIN -HP + 15.1mkg torque at 3500rpm - D Super5 (2175cc), 106 DIN-HP + 17.0mkg torque at 3500rpm - DS23 (2357cc), 115 DIN -HP + 19.7mkg torque at 3500rpm. - DS23 injection : 130 DIN-HP + 19,5mkg torque at 2550rpm. SAE (society of automotive engineers) measurements were done without all accesories like powersteering pump, alternator, airco compressor, fan drive. DIN (Deutsche Industrie norm) measurements were done with all attatched accesories. In short: SAE numbers should be higher then DIN numbers for the same engine. But you know what it is, when cars are as old as this Citroen who knows what ever happened in the past. Maybe at some point in time it got a fresh engine but with less power...! Only way to know is by doing more research: engine block numbers, carbrettor type, carb jetting.
I was thinking the same thing… with the 1969 Triumph TR6 PI they were originally quoted as 150 BHP but around 1973 they ‘detuned’ it for emissions (cam profiles, compression maybe) and it went to 130-something but DIN not SAE so less drastic a drop than it seemed at the time….
@@UPnDOWN From the little I've seen, it looks as though to get the power for a specific car, you have to take into account year, month, phase of the moon, and majority party in the National Assembly. I've seen 75 bhp quoted, too, but it didn't say what method of measurement was applied, and anyway it was on the internet. Imagine the scene: Punter rolls up and says "I would like to order one of those glorious Citroens." Saleshomme: "Certainly, DS or ID?" and so on and so on in a version of the Cheese Shop, except that they are ALL available.
@@UPnDOWN Difference between SAE horsepower figures and DIN horsepower. Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) pulled every tuning trick in the book to achieve inflated HP figures.
@@johnmoruzzi7236 That was the export version for USA which had strict emmision regulations in california at least. The lucas (changed on most vehicles to Bosch I believe ) PI in the UK was 150 BHP which is not much from a 6 cylinder 2500cc engine. Not the car to have though. Best is the TR5 but they are extremely rare.
Have you checked that the throttle butterfly is opening fully, and that choke is fully off? Something I always used to check on customer cars before a dyno run and it was surprising how many displayed the problem. Spurious cutting out could be vapour lock or carb icing.
I was thinking vapour lock as well. I had an R5 that would run for miles and miles no problem, but in hot weather would cut out after 5 miles due to vapour lock. a small bit of heat shroud had moved and was allowing the exhaust to heat up the fuel line.
@@lordbungle6235 Potentially the problem could become more common due to ethanol blended petrol, as ethanol vaporises more easily. Also, some old rubber fuel lines and hose is porous to ethanol, so this could also cause vapour lock. More recent rubber fuel line, which was developed to resist the more aggressive modern fuels, like super unleaded, should be ok with ethanol.
As a motoring writer from a more genteel time, George Bishop, once wrote "God, what a lovely car!" I actually think he was referring to a DS19, but the comment stands,
Another potential cause can be the venting of the fuel tank. Either in the lid or somewhere else. There are different types of lids with and without venting. If the lid venting is clogged or you bought the wrong type of spare part, you're prone to fuel starvation.
Hello Congratulations. Very nice state of conservation / renovation. I had the same one, at the time (1972), except that it was lagoon blue 😉 You say it's a 1970, but it already has the new steering wheel that appeared in 71. probably built then after September 😉 Thanks for this vidéo
Probably a 71 model year, yeah. Also possible its lost its original interior as so much of it has been lifted from a Pallas. That steering wheel is actually from Clement!
@@UPnDOWN Ah ok, I understand better. Well, unless you want to restore to the original at all costs, it's just as well. I had repainted mine with a 1974 comourants, and I had put in Pallas custods (quarter panels ?) 🤣
I think the speed record for this body shape is i think 212 mph at bonniville salt flats, it did however have a 1200 hp super charged hemi v8, but they did very little mods to the body
My Dad had a 1968 ID19B back in the 90's. It was the first of that shape with the enclosed headlight fairings. We can split hairs about whether it's a DS or not, but definitely a "goddess" in its looks. They all had the same "divine" shape, even though some models were less well endowed mechanically. I think Dad's car had the semi-automatic gearbox and vinyl seats but of course like all of them had that amazing hydropneumatic ride which is now extinct in the Citroen world unfortunately. I had a C5 at one stage but although it had all the trick electronics with the Hydractive suspension, it never had that sublime floatiness of the D models. I'm not sure whether the new hydraulic dampers they have replaced it with on the new C5 are any good, but I somehow doubt it.
The ID19B would have had a four speed manual box. The only models that had the BVH were certain DS or ID Safaris. No ID sedan was ever fitted with BVH as standard or optional equipment.
you were lucky with the wheel trim , wheel trims used to regularly fly off on the bush roads in africa arching away into the distance like some weird silver bird, never to be seen again.
True enough, but since we're not using downforce, 1G max lateral and longtitudinal should be enough, so you could put it on a gimballing platform and tilt it this way and that. You'd want to strap it down properly though! Centripetal force for a car reverts to lateral anyway.
The torque fall-off could be related to things like the exhaust system being an aftermarket or a system that's for another model. Given that age it's probably replaced at least once. In that era the power differences between models were sometimes exhaust system related.
New subscriber here, watched a few of your videos and find them brilliant. Where abouts are you based? Only as you said driving through Wycombe, im in High Wycombe.
Very pretty looking car for such an ancient design, back when different marques designs were more individual. BTW - The rolling rig would need to introduce a few random bumps to replicate driving on the road, random electrical issues come to mind as an obvious culprit.
Where are the "Truman show" cameras when something as perfect as picking up a wheel trim happens!? Fascinated by the dyno, does it have other modes? Have you experimented with after-market vs OEM tyre/wheel sizes vs indicated speeds on the dyno?
Dyno has a few modes, all for testing purposes. I haven't tried altering wheel sizes, no, but I do use another mode called SpeedConstant to set up/calibrate speedos.
I left a parking space with a fresly opened can of Coke on the roof made it to the end of the street before fetching it in to take a sip without spilling a drop no girls were watching ; |
6:36 If you are supposed to input all the correct aero numbers of the car beforehand as well, there is technically nothing stopping the dyno from adding the calculated aero drag at various speeds to the rolling resistance as well, making it be the correct acceleration indeed. Or as close as possible for what is a simulation, which could theoretically be quite close.
I has a 1985 BX (Mk1 1.9 GT). One of many cars I should never have sold. It had a random alternator warning light that caused me to have it rebuilt. There was considerable bearing wear so no complaints to the repair shop. However the fault returned. Then while reversing the car out of my drive, I heard a click and the warning light wet on. Long and short is that it was charging just fine, but the click was caused by a rubbed wire tripping a relay on the battery side of the charging system. The light came on because the battery was not opposing the alternator. I found the wire (rubbed on a body flange) and fixed the problem with a rubber sleeve over the repair. What's the chance this D Special has the same problem?
If that were mine I'd be replacing the fuel filter and checking the level of the fuel in the float bowl. Maybe the float is shutting off the fuel supply too soon or the needle that supplies it isn't perfectly clean leading to the engine using the fuel quicker than the carb can supply it.
Don't manufacturers always use figures from the an engine dyno and not actually in the car?? HP at the wheel is a different ball game. Not that we'd expect a 50 year old engine to put out the same HP it did new, unless its been rebuilt of course. Beautiful car regardless.
While it's possible to stick really thick floor mats in any car, there's not much like that not-DS or an actual DS, and it looks as classy as any of the top cars ever made.. that colour helps too.
These cars are OLD. It means the JETTING in the carb was done on pure ledded petrol. Nowadays petrol has no led and 5% to 10% erhanol in it. This has a leaning effect on the AF-ratio which hurts peak power. Maybe you can compensate for it by tweeking the ignition timing because ethanol is knock resistant and likes advance timing. Also setting the valve lash on the tight side of spec also helps. I'm pretty sure you can achieve the advertised power but it will need some fettling. (Maybe you could reem the main jet just a little? Toolkits do exist for it. motorcycle shops that deal with carbed bikes might have such a tool set.)
that 10% has a leaning effect, but its pretty miniscule. 3-4 percent. And I doubt its linear with power. So maybe a percent or 2. A horsepower and a bit, potentially.
Strangely, I think that is part of the charm of the car. I have seen so many metallic DS (and relatives) of that era with paint mis-matches between panels I almost think a car without isn't quite right.
@@UPnDOWN The silver will be pre basecoat and clear technology .Single layer metallics was very tricky to spray evenly and depending how heavy your coats was determined the shade .Heavy coats equal darker tone .
Sorry but what was the dyno session for? I didn’t actually see him tune the engine at all? (Or even lift the bonnet?) Why wouldn’t you adjust the timing, change the plugs, check the air filter, check the float chamber level before doing a power reading ? ( I’m sure this must be my mistake? - confused!)
This would be brilliant when you are programming diesel injectors on psa cars. On the rolling road you can do 3000 rpk in 6th gear without breaking the law and your also you don't have to find a road with a suitable speed limit.
Nice D...Special , I wonder if that ejecting "enjoliveur" was the cause of the shaking on the dyno ...and you make me wonder why you bring the 16s inside
Ha! No, that'd be the tyres I suspect. Could feel perfectly fine on the road but the rollers are perfectly smooth, so ANY imperfections are felt. BX just came inside that night, just left it in the vid because I realised I'd left the camera on when I edited!
Is the car running 123 ignition? Mine did similar a few times and I thought it was fuel related and took the entire fuel system to pieces and put it back together, made no difference. Changed the distributor for a 123 and it’s never done it since and has indeed never put a foot wrong engine running wise since…
I'm not too familiar with the D citroen's but it did sound like the valve train was a bit noisy, seemed to tick a lot, has it been checked? That might be worth a few more horsepower, also it starts hard, is the choke working and ignition system working well too? As for the fuel starvation, check the petrol tank cap, might be vapor lock.
An O2 sensor would be useful to check air/fuel ratio. Does it have a dual throat carb? Way back in the 1970s power figures were gross. Meaning with no accessories when tested. So real power fitted to car was lower.
@@UPnDOWN Tesla motor, located a long way back for true mid-front. Just a little bit of electronics where it might be helpful. Regard coarse Anglo-Saxons in their vulgar Bentleys and Range Rovers with supercilious scorn.
Love the car, my dad had one from new. Had to watch the video, but could not listen to you repeating yourself and waving your arms around while talking for the sake of it. I got to about the 2 minute point before I turned it off.
Warm weather and/or air pressure could just about account for the power difference. The dyno says 1009mB / 23C on this. the 25hr livestream run was 1013mB / 19C, so... eeeh. Maybe. Just. Wheeltrim recovery... Yeeeah. 😎
The corrected figures account for all those things, so the figure at the flywheel should be the same come winter or summer. The wheel figure and measured figures would change a lot, mind.
You seem, to me at least, neglected to recognise the age and wear on the engine. 89 thousand plus miles? What do you expect? Is it just me? or has no one else considered this? I think it has done rather well considering. Lovely shape of a car. The French designers got it right in my humble opinion.
So you have never had a wheel trim pass you. Have you driven a Austin Princess? Age about 1970s. Mine would throw both front caps off if I broke hard. Yes it had steel wheels.
Correct. Weight, frontal area and drag co-efficient. There's also a rolling resistance factor which you work out based on tyre size/drag, but I've never bothered to read it as I've never needed it to be spot on for stuff like this.
Am not at all surprised that the engine 'only' produced a top of 75 bhp or that the instruments are not all that accurate. That car, most likely, is almost twice as old as he is. Regardless of hp - the easy way to tell a DV from all of the other models, esp on a dyno, is kph vs engine speed - so long as tranny has not been screwed with. The DV's had lower, overall, gear ratios. The other models had a top gear speed of 32.5 to 33.3 kph10ths per 1000 engine RPM.. The DV's were 30kph per 1000 engine RPM. So at 3000rpm that is a 7.5-10 kph difference.
@@UPnDOWN Well to this 79yo you don't look it 🥸. Out of curiosity what year is the XM out in your parking area? Pauline and I are in the US and we have a 92 LHD V6 XM (DRAVI and a brake accumulator) - neither of which were available on RHD cars - that is stable mates with our 72 DS21 BVH Pallas/1969 ID21 Break and 1985 2CV Charleston. Just aside note - does this car have a123 distributor? If not a very worthwhile upgrade.
'Dyno' is short for 'dynamometer', and that certainly isn't a modern term! 'Rolling road' just refers to the fact it's a device with rollers, which equally could be a brake tester.
It's funny, you have Sod's Law and we have Murphy's Law in the US. You can't make up these kinds of things with cars. Good Luck finding the problem. At least it's not Ian.😊
How did you fix the kink in the power graph??? Magic or wishful thinking? Hubcaps tend to come off because of the extreme vertical acceleration of a DS wheel over bumps. I made little stand off brackets to bolt them to in the centre.
I didn't fix the kink, they appear for a number of reasons. Sometimes because the engine is getting too hot. I think the wheel trim came off because the clips are 50-odd years old, to be fair!
![[Sub Thai] APT. - ROSÉ & Bruno Mars](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bYjhzP8x_uc/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm going to assume nobody ever reads the video descriptions these days... 😏
Hahaha, most don't, you're right. And he even says so in the comments 🤣
I'm a bit disappointed he didn't try to tune it up
@@Munakas-wq3gp I wasn't being paid to tune it up, I was being paid to find the cause of it cutting out (I did, it's in the description).
I know, it looks like one...but it isn't. Close, but no cigar etc.
Known as 'Audrey' to its owner, this 1970 Citroën D Special cut out on me during a test drive recently. I'm looking to see if I can get it to recreate this on the dyno using a special mode.
8:00 i love the moving "Distance d'arret (sol sec)" - stopping distance (dry ground) on the speedometer.
Tres Français ❤
Yeah i had to look up what that was! I somehow think following distance would have been more useful info, but peoples perception of distance varies so much anyway. That dash is a thing of beauty!
I was going to ask about that, because I couldn't locate the index or the scale on the dial. Not that it would help me, because I don't trust my absolute judgement of distance, but time separation seems to work (I find it much easier to count "One hippopotamus, two hippopotamus ..." than judge metres or car lengths.
Beautiful isn't it?
Absolument
She might not be a DS, but she is gorgeous!
She is. If it’s possible to break down in style then this is it.
she's special! :)
“A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.” The DS’s visuals are still hypnotic after all these years…
That's one beautiful car.
D special. The D is the D and the S is the S of the first letter of the word Special, so in a way it is a DS. This D Special model was replacing the ID, the DS less expensive sister.
I'm still confused!😂 There's also a D Super5 !
A friend of mine had such a car. If i remember correctly it had 5 speed gbox , hence that 5.
I like this guy.
@@jfv65 The D Super 5 was the more upmarket model with a 5 speed box and the new 103 BHP 2 litre engine shared with the Renault 20 back in the day
@@bernardchesneau3091 The D series and Renault 20 never shared engines. The D Super 5 used the same engine as the outgoing DS21 (2175 cc) when it became the DS23 (2347 cc). It was the CX and 20 that shared the Douvrin four cylinder engine.
D Sausage?
I just came across your channel as I love Citroën, as my parents had a GS the smaller version and air cooled and I did all my early days driving on it! And still miss that little dear!! We had a friend in Belgium that had one of those and it was just magical having a ride in it! Bravo! Good luck too with it!
Damn the car looks fantastic in that colour combo ❤
What an amazing car. It still looks timeless all these years later. It may as well be a DS to me it certainly looks the part.
Also I really enjoy how your channel is coming along
Keep up the great content 👍
Thank you
14:30 Who knew they came in 2 tone silver, très avancé.
Watching Audrey manoeuvre off the rollers and out of the garage took me back to watching a similar looking car in a mews in Edinburgh many years ago, I was so fascinated by the movement and look of the car I just stood and gawped, and I'd seen several previously. The old gent that drove the car gave me a nod and a wave as he drove off down the cobbles. Such experiences must have been influential to be so vivid decades later.
Totally get that. I still enjoy watching old Citroens move around.
DS or not it's still a looker eh? I love that you remind the owner. I too have been assigned to remind my friend on a near daily basis that his Dino is not, as he clames, a Ferrari.
These things are important!
Well, given it was made by Ferrari, and it does actually have a Ferrari badge on it, it would be a Ferrari.
Unless it's one of the very few rare ones that didn't get that Ferrari badge.
But that would still be a Ferrari. Because it's a Ferrari.
@@L5GUK no Ferrari badges on his example. Came from the factory that way. I know who built it obviously. If we apply the true chassis makers name to every car then we would be in a world of shit eh? Bet if you drove a lexus you wouldn't refer to it as your Toyota.
@@Klutch58Customs What team did the Dino cars race under in LeMans/F2/Sports Cars?
I'm not sure I ever heard of a Dino racing team (except for the old video game, but that was about dinosaurs).
Not Ferarris racing in the Ferrari factory racing teams 🤔
Also not aware of any Dino dealerships in period either, but I will admit I'm in my 30s, so happy to be shown otherwise; certainly would be interesting.
To put it frank, the snobbery within car loving communities is obscene. Dinos are Ferraris. Your mate has a Ferrari.
@@L5GUK I wouldn't be too hurt about it. I genuinely couldn't give a toss. He could call it a Lada for all I care.
I don't need schooling on Ferrari but thanks anyway. I finished my mechanic's apprenticeship on Italian sports and racing cars probably around the time you were born!
Luckily, when you have friends who take the piss out of each other, you can have fun with this kind of thing.
What a beautiful black BX Wagon in the background 😀
It's dark grey apparently, I got excited about it in a previous video 😅
@@nstarmore you're right, now I see it's actually grey 😅
Well done Audrey. It's a clean sounding engine.
I once lived with an Audrie.
It didn't end well.
I got to ask, did she have a petite back end like the Citroen?
Interesting... I've owned a number of D series cars, the best being an automatic Pallas. Those engines are capable of being tuned to well over 110hp. More than that and it all gets very expensive. Whether it's the video sound quality or not, I don't know, but that engine sounded pretty rough. Being 54 years old will account for some of it of course, but those engines were made to be very smooth and quiet. I'd suggest a thorough overhaul to bring the car back to its original excellence.
When the "Diesse" (DS) was launched back in 1955, it was hailed as being 25 years ahead of its time. In my opinion, the DS is still ahead on design and comfort. Only the engineering hasn't kept up. Brilliant cars!
why would you want to tune it up to 110hp pointless on an old auto its suicidée
@@Azureecosse My 1974 DS23 Pallas was good for 130 DIN, from the factory. It was a wonderful car, then, and still is now.
I would be surprised if the breaking down problem isn't carburettor icing. As exhaust emission legislation in the USA began to bite carb manufacturers around the world went back to the drawing board in an attempt to reduce emissions and many decided moving air faster through the carburettor would be easy answer number one as it would create smaller fuel droplets so the fuel charge would have a greater surface area and give a more complete burn resulting in lower tailpipe emissions.
The result of this was to increase the risk of carburettor icing necessitating the need to warm the air entering the carb, an arrangement that often fell quickly into disrepair and became ineffective.
The surprising thing is the weather didn't have to be particularly cold and the right combination of cool and damp mostly did the trick and manifested as a progressive loss of power until it was pointless continuing. Once stopped, the heat from the engine quickly melts the ice and the engine can be restarted a few minutes later...
Beautiful looking car
The hubcap reminds me of a time when I made a very slow eight mile journey looking for the cover for my trailer, which I forgot to lash down. It turned up seven miles later and a mile from home - and some kind soul had tied it to a thorny bush to stop it blowing away again...!! At least it wasn't in a ditch or the middle of a field.
Whether D or DS, still one of the most beautiful cars ever made - perhaps second only to the 2 door convertible! OMG, Stunning!
Citroen SM is also nice.
@@philtucker1224 I agree, technologically phenomenal - but maybe not quite as beautiful
@@ianelliott229 agreed.
@@ianelliott229 interesting to me naturally, my business man Grandfather had the first Citroen Avant sold in the U.K. (in the late 30s early 40s) evidently that car was the first mass- production car to have front wheel drive ( I believe ). The French were clearly extremely innovative in those days!
@@ianelliott229 yes ( the SM) - and I recall that everyone hated that electronic foot button for the brakes! 🤣😂
Have you tried putting that wheeltrim on the dyno? Maybe it overtook you because it's got more power than Audrey.
😆
A dream of mine is to own a D or DS one day. A slightly feverish dream is to get the Welsh lot to mod it to electric. And then glide long like on a magic carpet!
First time I saw a video of yours, your introduction alone was worth a sub 😂
Please don't. In 10 years time you would be so sad to have allowed moggy to butcher another classic and make it worthless and undesirable.
Which ones do you have at the moment?
Love the engine/exhaust tone of that d super. Very fitting!
The original car names (DS and ID) were not acronyms. They were French language puns. "DS" is pronounced Déesse ='goddess'. "ID" is pronounced idée = 'idea'. Henri Citroen was a clever guy.
Andre Citroen was dead 20 years before the D came out…
Horsepower at the driven wheels is usually lower than hp at the crankshaft by 20-45%, so these results are pretty good.
What a way to cap off a video. 🥁😎
my DSuper5 did exactly that! When it gets back on the road I will investigate.
Good chance it's the ignition coil.
Insulation inside breaks down when the coil gets hot and you lose spark , coil cools down and it all works again.
This kept happening to my MGB and eventually I figured it out
Could it possibly b a vapour lock that develops when you drive itin certain conditions?
May be totally irrelevant, but in the early 1980s I had a CX ‘Athena’. I had many trouble free miles out of it but it develop a frustrating habit of power fading off until I was compelled to stop. After a few minutes of standing it would immediately start again and run perfectly (until the next time - it happened quite randomly). The local Citroen dealer was useless with ideas and eventually an auto engineer friend took it off my hands. Around 2004, I met a chap who had run Citroens for years, including a CX estate - model I can’t recall. He had the same experience. It was resolved by re-torquing the cylinder head, the studs apparently ‘stretching’ slightly under some conditions.
75 HP at the wheel is easily 90-100 HP at the engine dyno... The factories have always written the engine dyno numbers in the brochures...
The 75bhp figure is the flywheel, not the wheels.
Beautiful car
I had to look it up in my old books:
-ID19 is supposed to have 84 SAE HP
-DS19 : 90 SAE-HP
-D Special (1985cc) 99 DIN -HP + 15.1mkg torque at 3500rpm
- D Super5 (2175cc), 106 DIN-HP + 17.0mkg torque at 3500rpm
- DS23 (2357cc), 115 DIN -HP + 19.7mkg torque at 3500rpm.
- DS23 injection : 130 DIN-HP + 19,5mkg torque at 2550rpm.
SAE (society of automotive engineers) measurements were done without all accesories like powersteering pump, alternator, airco compressor, fan drive.
DIN (Deutsche Industrie norm) measurements were done with all attatched accesories.
In short: SAE numbers should be higher then DIN numbers for the same engine.
But you know what it is, when cars are as old as this Citroen who knows what ever happened in the past. Maybe at some point in time it got a fresh engine but with less power...!
Only way to know is by doing more research: engine block numbers, carbrettor type, carb jetting.
D Super had 99bhp, D Super 5 106bhp. D Special supposed to have 84.
ID19 was down in the high 60bhp region, so your books might be incorrect!
I was thinking the same thing… with the 1969 Triumph TR6 PI they were originally quoted as 150 BHP but around 1973 they ‘detuned’ it for emissions (cam profiles, compression maybe) and it went to 130-something but DIN not SAE so less drastic a drop than it seemed at the time….
@@UPnDOWN From the little I've seen, it looks as though to get the power for a specific car, you have to take into account year, month, phase of the moon, and majority party in the National Assembly. I've seen 75 bhp quoted, too, but it didn't say what method of measurement was applied, and anyway it was on the internet. Imagine the scene: Punter rolls up and says "I would like to order one of those glorious Citroens." Saleshomme: "Certainly, DS or ID?" and so on and so on in a version of the Cheese Shop, except that they are ALL available.
@@UPnDOWN Difference between SAE horsepower figures and DIN horsepower. Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) pulled every tuning trick in the book to achieve inflated HP figures.
@@johnmoruzzi7236 That was the export version for USA which had strict emmision regulations in california at least. The lucas (changed on most vehicles to Bosch I believe ) PI in the UK was 150 BHP which is not much from a 6 cylinder 2500cc engine. Not the car to have though. Best is the TR5 but they are extremely rare.
Have you checked that the throttle butterfly is opening fully, and that choke is fully off? Something I always used to check on customer cars before a dyno run and it was surprising how many displayed the problem. Spurious cutting out could be vapour lock or carb icing.
I was thinking vapour lock as well. I had an R5 that would run for miles and miles no problem, but in hot weather would cut out after 5 miles due to vapour lock. a small bit of heat shroud had moved and was allowing the exhaust to heat up the fuel line.
@@lordbungle6235
Potentially the problem could become more common due to ethanol blended petrol, as ethanol vaporises more easily. Also, some old rubber fuel lines and hose is porous to ethanol, so this could also cause vapour lock. More recent rubber fuel line, which was developed to resist the more aggressive modern fuels, like super unleaded, should be ok with ethanol.
@@turboslag super unleaded is also half the % ethanol of regular
Elle est magnifique
As a motoring writer from a more genteel time, George Bishop, once wrote "God, what a lovely car!" I actually think he was referring to a DS19, but the comment stands,
Sticky float/ valve in the carb. Mine would do it occasionally. Quick tap on the carb, away you go!
Someone read the description!
Another potential cause can be the venting of the fuel tank. Either in the lid or somewhere else. There are different types of lids with and without venting. If the lid venting is clogged or you bought the wrong type of spare part, you're prone to fuel starvation.
Beauty inside and outside
Hello
Congratulations. Very nice state of conservation / renovation. I had the same one, at the time (1972), except that it was lagoon blue 😉
You say it's a 1970, but it already has the new steering wheel that appeared in 71. probably built then after September 😉
Thanks for this vidéo
Probably a 71 model year, yeah. Also possible its lost its original interior as so much of it has been lifted from a Pallas. That steering wheel is actually from Clement!
@@UPnDOWN
Ah ok, I understand better. Well, unless you want to restore to the original at all costs, it's just as well. I had repainted mine with a 1974 comourants, and I had put in Pallas custods (quarter panels ?) 🤣
I think the speed record for this body shape is i think 212 mph at bonniville salt flats, it did however have a 1200 hp super charged hemi v8, but they did very little mods to the body
Beautiful Citroën. Reliability is part of the charm. Like old British made cars.
Yes the charm is suddenly gone when its 5:30pm & starting to rain & the engine quits on the way home.
cool looking Citroen, never knew they made a non DS verison.
My Dad had a 1968 ID19B back in the 90's. It was the first of that shape with the enclosed headlight fairings. We can split hairs about whether it's a DS or not, but definitely a "goddess" in its looks. They all had the same "divine" shape, even though some models were less well endowed mechanically. I think Dad's car had the semi-automatic gearbox and vinyl seats but of course like all of them had that amazing hydropneumatic ride which is now extinct in the Citroen world unfortunately. I had a C5 at one stage but although it had all the trick electronics with the Hydractive suspension, it never had that sublime floatiness of the D models. I'm not sure whether the new hydraulic dampers they have replaced it with on the new C5 are any good, but I somehow doubt it.
The ID19B would have had a four speed manual box. The only models that had the BVH were certain DS or ID Safaris. No ID sedan was ever fitted with BVH as standard or optional equipment.
you were lucky with the wheel trim , wheel trims used to regularly fly off on the bush roads in africa arching away into the distance like some weird silver bird, never to be seen again.
It’s weird that they only come off in Africa though. Not in France?
@@philtucker1224 I dont know he had one come off at 20 miles an hour in the UK. And as I remember the French used to keep their trims in the boot.
8:22 - no centrifugel , centripetal, lateral or longitudinal forces acting on the float chamber /fuel bowl that the rolling riad can’t replicate.
True enough, but since we're not using downforce, 1G max lateral and longtitudinal should be enough, so you could put it on a gimballing platform and tilt it this way and that. You'd want to strap it down properly though! Centripetal force for a car reverts to lateral anyway.
The torque fall-off could be related to things like the exhaust system being an aftermarket or a system that's for another model. Given that age it's probably replaced at least once.
In that era the power differences between models were sometimes exhaust system related.
Wish i had the money back in the day, always wanted a D Special,
Wat a beast it has less than 4 times the HP my lawn mower has what a monster.
New subscriber here, watched a few of your videos and find them brilliant.
Where abouts are you based? Only as you said driving through Wycombe, im in High Wycombe.
Very pretty looking car for such an ancient design, back when different marques designs were more individual. BTW - The rolling rig would need to introduce a few random bumps to replicate driving on the road, random electrical issues come to mind as an obvious culprit.
That little stopping distance dial is a nice feature
@@cbmsysmobile i think its a DS 21 With turnebel head lights .john from 🇳🇱 HOLLAND
louis de funet vibes, thank you..
A Citroën does not break down, she shows character 😅
No doubt with a Galic Hydropneumatic shrug of the shoulders 🤷🏻😎🤣
@@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665 Had a C5 but hydro was ok it was ignition coils 😅
Where are the "Truman show" cameras when something as perfect as picking up a wheel trim happens!?
Fascinated by the dyno, does it have other modes?
Have you experimented with after-market vs OEM tyre/wheel sizes vs indicated speeds on the dyno?
Dyno has a few modes, all for testing purposes.
I haven't tried altering wheel sizes, no, but I do use another mode called SpeedConstant to set up/calibrate speedos.
I left a parking space with a fresly opened can of Coke on the roof
made it to the end of the street before fetching it in to take a sip without spilling a drop
no girls were watching ; |
6:36 If you are supposed to input all the correct aero numbers of the car beforehand as well, there is technically nothing stopping the dyno from adding the calculated aero drag at various speeds to the rolling resistance as well, making it be the correct acceleration indeed. Or as close as possible for what is a simulation, which could theoretically be quite close.
That's what it does.
I has a 1985 BX (Mk1 1.9 GT). One of many cars I should never have sold. It had a random alternator warning light that caused me to have it rebuilt. There was considerable bearing wear so no complaints to the repair shop. However the fault returned. Then while reversing the car out of my drive, I heard a click and the warning light wet on. Long and short is that it was charging just fine, but the click was caused by a rubbed wire tripping a relay on the battery side of the charging system. The light came on because the battery was not opposing the alternator. I found the wire (rubbed on a body flange) and fixed the problem with a rubber sleeve over the repair.
What's the chance this D Special has the same problem?
If that were mine I'd be replacing the fuel filter and checking the level of the fuel in the float bowl. Maybe the float is shutting off the fuel supply too soon or the needle that supplies it isn't perfectly clean leading to the engine using the fuel quicker than the carb can supply it.
No car has the right to look as elegant as that strapped down on the rollers!
Watched this for 5 mins , and that was enough!!
What an amazing story! Thank you so much for sharing it.
Nice to see a gorgeous classic being given the beans! Which engine does this one have? Guessing 19 or maybe 20.
1985cc. Technically Citroen called it the 19 (just the later one)
That happened to me, beauty ring and the hubcap flew off into a grass verge, had to go searching 😂🤣😂
Go on co part there’s a crash damaged sm on there that looks really good other than front end damage
Don't manufacturers always use figures from the an engine dyno and not actually in the car?? HP at the wheel is a different ball game. Not that we'd expect a 50 year old engine to put out the same HP it did new, unless its been rebuilt of course. Beautiful car regardless.
While it's possible to stick really thick floor mats in any car, there's not much like that not-DS or an actual DS, and it looks as classy as any of the top cars ever made.. that colour helps too.
A good reminder that you rarely, if ever, use the maximum power when actually driving.
I feel you need a C15 on that chart, or a Visa, or both. I've owned both (and a BX)
These cars are OLD. It means the JETTING in the carb was done on pure ledded petrol.
Nowadays petrol has no led and 5% to 10% erhanol in it. This has a leaning effect on the AF-ratio which hurts peak power.
Maybe you can compensate for it by tweeking the ignition timing because ethanol is knock resistant and likes advance timing. Also setting the valve lash on the tight side of spec also helps.
I'm pretty sure you can achieve the advertised power but it will need some fettling.
(Maybe you could reem the main jet just a little? Toolkits do exist for it. motorcycle shops that deal with carbed bikes might have such a tool set.)
that 10% has a leaning effect, but its pretty miniscule. 3-4 percent. And I doubt its linear with power. So maybe a percent or 2. A horsepower and a bit, potentially.
Colour match on the front wing is not good . Easily sorted by blending the colour through the door . Amazing beautiful car
Strangely, I think that is part of the charm of the car. I have seen so many metallic DS (and relatives) of that era with paint mis-matches between panels I almost think a car without isn't quite right.
It's not even the same colour, no amount of blending will fix that!
@@UPnDOWN The silver will be pre basecoat and clear technology .Single layer metallics was very tricky to spray evenly and depending how heavy your coats was determined the shade .Heavy coats equal darker tone .
No, it's a different colour! Totally different. Panels have likely come from a different car.
Sorry but what was the dyno session for? I didn’t actually see him tune the engine at all? (Or even lift the bonnet?) Why wouldn’t you adjust the timing, change the plugs, check the air filter, check the float chamber level before doing a power reading ? ( I’m sure this must be my mistake? - confused!)
This would be brilliant when you are programming diesel injectors on psa cars. On the rolling road you can do 3000 rpk in 6th gear without breaking the law and your also you don't have to find a road with a suitable speed limit.
Awesome cars!!! 👍😊
Nice D...Special , I wonder if that ejecting "enjoliveur" was the cause of the shaking on the dyno ...and you make me wonder why you bring the 16s inside
Ha! No, that'd be the tyres I suspect. Could feel perfectly fine on the road but the rollers are perfectly smooth, so ANY imperfections are felt.
BX just came inside that night, just left it in the vid because I realised I'd left the camera on when I edited!
Would you be equally unhappy with ID, D Super, D Special and DW for not being the most expensive DS variant?
Nothing to do with expense, they're from the ID line. CItroen themselves marketed them as a different model. Think Rover 75/MG ZT.
Is the car running 123 ignition? Mine did similar a few times and I thought it was fuel related and took the entire fuel system to pieces and put it back together, made no difference. Changed the distributor for a 123 and it’s never done it since and has indeed never put a foot wrong engine running wise since…
that couldnt pull the skin off a rice pudding !
The graph must have a nice smooth curve if the car's name is Audrey.
I'm not too familiar with the D citroen's but it did sound like the valve train was a bit noisy, seemed to tick a lot, has it been checked? That might be worth a few more horsepower, also it starts hard, is the choke working and ignition system working well too? As for the fuel starvation, check the petrol tank cap, might be vapor lock.
An O2 sensor would be useful to check air/fuel ratio.
Does it have a dual throat carb?
Way back in the 1970s power figures were gross. Meaning with no accessories when tested. So real power fitted to car was lower.
My AFR gauge is dead, sadly. Annoying the dyno is so old it doesn't have it built-in.
I think a black one was used in the Highlander tv series, and was driven by Adrian Paul. 🤔
Perfect car for EV conversion.
I actually agree.
@@UPnDOWN Tesla motor, located a long way back for true mid-front. Just a little bit of electronics where it might be helpful. Regard coarse Anglo-Saxons in their vulgar Bentleys and Range Rovers with supercilious scorn.
Is it though? How on earth do you power the hydraulics? Only sensible way to do it would be a body swap, but is it really still a DS then?
With electric motors. It's been done already.
@@UPnDOWNThat’s what I was envisaging. Two hydraulic pressurisers, for redundancy.
This car would be much more beautiful without that ugly chrome protuberance on the hood !
It breaks up the beautiful lines!
Love the car, my dad had one from new. Had to watch the video, but could not listen to you repeating yourself and waving your arms around while talking for the sake of it. I got to about the 2 minute point before I turned it off.
That's amazing to know, I'll completely reinvent myself next time just in case.
Warm weather and/or air pressure could just about account for the power difference.
The dyno says 1009mB / 23C on this. the 25hr livestream run was 1013mB / 19C, so... eeeh. Maybe. Just.
Wheeltrim recovery... Yeeeah. 😎
The corrected figures account for all those things, so the figure at the flywheel should be the same come winter or summer.
The wheel figure and measured figures would change a lot, mind.
Did you check the fuel pump and carburettor? That dip in the power and torque curve is not normal.
Maybe the fuel is getting too warm before ignition. Basically evaporation in the fuel lines
If only they had gone down the road of fitting the 2.1 V6 which in pre production was good for 155hp
Not heard of that one before. You're not talking about the flat-6, are you?
You seem, to me at least, neglected to recognise the age and wear on the engine. 89 thousand plus miles? What do you expect? Is it just me? or has no one else considered this? I think it has done rather well considering. Lovely shape of a car. The French designers got it right in my humble opinion.
You've probably not been around here long. There are quite a few videos I've done showing that age/mileage don't mean a drop in output.
89,000 miles is nothing for one of these engines.
So sad this extra terrestrial car never had the engine it deserved, same for the SM by the way
It's a pre-CX.
So you have never had a wheel trim pass you. Have you driven a Austin Princess? Age about 1970s. Mine would throw both front caps off if I broke hard. Yes it had steel wheels.
Stellantis should launch this commercially.
So do you need to set the weight and an aero factor in the dyno software for the road simulation mode?
Correct. Weight, frontal area and drag co-efficient. There's also a rolling resistance factor which you work out based on tyre size/drag, but I've never bothered to read it as I've never needed it to be spot on for stuff like this.
Am not at all surprised that the engine 'only' produced a top of 75 bhp or that the instruments are not all that accurate. That car, most likely, is almost twice as old as he is. Regardless of hp - the easy way to tell a DV from all of the other models, esp on a dyno, is kph vs engine speed - so long as tranny has not been screwed with. The DV's had lower, overall, gear ratios. The other models had a top gear speed of 32.5 to 33.3 kph10ths per 1000 engine RPM.. The DV's were 30kph per 1000 engine RPM. So at 3000rpm that is a 7.5-10 kph difference.
"He?" I'm 41!
@@UPnDOWN Well to this 79yo you don't look it 🥸. Out of curiosity what year is the XM out in your parking area? Pauline and I are in the US and we have a 92 LHD V6 XM (DRAVI and a brake accumulator) - neither of which were available on RHD cars - that is stable mates with our 72 DS21 BVH Pallas/1969 ID21 Break and 1985 2CV Charleston. Just aside note - does this car have a123 distributor? If not a very worthwhile upgrade.
Interesting that you can remove the hub nut from a Citroen and it makes no difference. Must have something to do with the suspension.
In 1950's it must seems a space shuttle
is it just the light or is Audrey, 'ow you say?, le two-tone?
Very much two-tone!
A dyno is just a mordern name for " rolling road" its original name back in the 1970ts and 1980ts
'Dyno' is short for 'dynamometer', and that certainly isn't a modern term! 'Rolling road' just refers to the fact it's a device with rollers, which equally could be a brake tester.
Could it be a centrifugal issue with cornering darling the carb?
perhaps had a bouble from 'warm-weather' ...
Yes please! Always been wondering how much some of these make! Shouldnt these be making something like 82hp?
It's funny, you have Sod's Law and we have Murphy's Law in the US. You can't make up these kinds of things with cars. Good Luck finding the problem. At least it's not Ian.😊
How did you fix the kink in the power graph??? Magic or wishful thinking? Hubcaps tend to come off because of the extreme vertical acceleration of a DS wheel over bumps. I made little stand off brackets to bolt them to in the centre.
I didn't fix the kink, they appear for a number of reasons. Sometimes because the engine is getting too hot.
I think the wheel trim came off because the clips are 50-odd years old, to be fair!