Agreed. What's the point of Terran having range with Thors/Seige Tanks when all of their higher tiered units can be abducted and there's absolutely no way to counter it. This match was over from the beginning, props to Serral for the early mule destruction but these matches are kinda not fun to watch anymore.
@@TheOprostaj i didn't see that many vikings... those shoot down vipers in a hurry. Stop crying about balance. I get crushed by this style that innovation played a lot as zerg. i only have like a 40% win against Terran. Its the hardest to beat as zerg in my opinion.
If Serral keeps this up he's gonna ruin zerg for the rest of us when they nerf zerg into oblivion. We're gonna be left with lings without speed and queens with no legs.
The Viper essentially is just a bug, or maybe a big bug, it doesn’t make any sense to me that it can pull colossal war machines like battle cruisers and thors over so easily. And tanks that are sieged up, they supposed to have dug inches if not feet into the ground when sieged... I think at least for bigger units, it should cost more energy for vipers to pull, like BCs it should take a full energy viper to pull one BC.
@@0909ttt A business that some are better at than others. haha. Serral is stupid good at this game. I think the idea of more energy for larger yoinks might be a good idea. I still think its not imbalanced. Where were the ghosts? Not that many vikings? Innovation knows how to counter he was just flustered from the get go. I get destroyed by this style from T as Z.
Justin Thomason yeah, I agree. I think Innovation got stuck to thors and siege tanks for too long. Putting mass ghosts and Vikings can change the course of this game for sure. From the moment that he got soft contained with 4 bases and not able to expend, I felt like this might be it... he was too busy dealing with all the attacks to think of switching units combinations..
I think Blizz will remove the viper ability to restore energy by sucking thing. they will add an upgrade to get them at high energy when they spawn and that's it. the really OP part of abduct is that vipers can just do it over and over again by recovering their energy, as you can see at the very end of the video
So let me get this straight. Lurker, an unit that was meant to be a strong counter against numberous weak units like terran bio, is actually bad against terran bio due to its mobility, but instead it is extremely strong against terran mech and protoss ground army, something it shouldn't be good against... This doesn't make any sense. Other things I find odd is how hellions have big bonus vs light units, yet Zerg hydras still smash them into pieces. Protoss Adepts have massive damage boost vs light, and yet terran marines and zerg hydras still smash them. Hydras are meant to be zerg AA, yet BC overpower them easily. Protoss Tempest was meant to specialize in hunting massive units, yet BC and Thors are actually counter to them, and Thors that are meant to serve as strong AA for terran gets melted so easily the moment zerg gets a few flying Vipers out. And Terran Vikings that are meant to counter enemy armored air becomes useless when enemy spell casters gets involved. I swear, there's tons of stuff in starcraft that works different than intended, for better or worse.
Kmpg os4 Lurkers are great against both it turns out. Hydra vs Hellion really is just a battle of who kills who first. Hydra DPS is single target and way higher, Hellions do splash and attack quite slowly.
There is more to it than just Rock-Paper-Scissoring through all the units you know. The Zealot vs Marine/Hydra point you made for example, doesnt quite cover all theres to it since it ignores that both Marines and Hydras are ranged, therefore allowing them to attack first, take advantage of highgrounds and kite the Zealots if they dont have charge yet.
@@LowkoTV From what I've seen, Lurker prove less efficient against Bio. Sure, it can kill terran bio quickly if they don't pay attention, but at the same time M-M-M units seem quite capaible to outmanouver them. Mech on the other side lack that mobility, and Viper seem incredibly cost-efficient against any army that have expensive units. While against Bio it can only pull siege tanks and medivacs at best, aginst mech and protoss air it can do far superb damage.
@@YodasMessenger I know it ismore than just Rock-Paper-Scissors, which is why I sad at the end "for better or worse", but it still comes as very odd when specific unit is equipted with really big advantage against specific unit, only for both units to show the opposite in practice. It just feels really weird at times. Also, I wasn't talking about zelots but adepts. Adept have very high bonus vs light, yet other than workers, it seems to fail in direct combat. You can try to shade army of adepts into army of bio/hydras, but we both know who'll come atop in this exchange, and it certainly won't be unit with large bonus vs light.
A "flying" organic unit pulling a THOR (like 5000 kg or something?) while "flying", it's completely logical and fine; a unit named as Lurker dealing slightly reduced damage to some unit types, it's unacceptable. Seriously watching a THOR sized unit getting pulled by a tiny little creature was so cringy.
11:40 Strangely feels like a "Legacy of the Void Gameplay Showcase" first ever footage. As if Serral pulling those units was scripted gameplay and the showcase was displaying Viper Abilities.
Yes, using highly positional units and units that have to be seiged up against casters that were specifically designed to mess up positions and seiged units was braindead. That's kinda how Inno is though. He is not a thinker. But I do think he will watch the meta and practice enough to remain dominant. Man that hydra/lurker/viper combo just horseraped that mech.
Simple fact: Terran lost air superiority and that was the game. Mech ground units don't kill Vipers efficiently. He needed to have conserved the BCs and Yamato'd them down, plus a few Vikings. The Thors were practically glorified loot pinatas for the Zerg player. Not enough range and dead on arrival...
Just playing the game effectively counters Vipers as well. They're expensive late game units and the Terran player let the situation get out of hand with no counter to them, like Yamato cannons or Vikings. It was pretty obvious how this one would end. People jump to conclusions too quickly imho. The whole point of the Zerg race is to overwhelm you with infinite numbers...and if you let it get THAT far, then you should lose. No effective counter attacks either, apart from a few drones (Okay, quite a few drones, but no structural damage). Terran can shut down Vipers easily by sniping them off. Heck, even Ghosts would have been a good counter with snipe and EMP...
Honest question: In lategame zerg with vipers, what are the things that a high level player will take note of when deciding whether or not to plop down 3-5 evo chambers for the task as opposed to siphoning some energy from a lair / hive? I obviously understand that there's time-cost in waiting for the evo chambers to pop out / lost mining time from the drones. I also realize that it's a lot easier to decide to use the hive the way Serral does here at 10:28, because the creep spread and overlord vision meant that the likelihood of the hive needing that HP for an attack was very low. I'm asking about the tipping point between those two extremes. Is there any "correct" way to decide whether to use functioning / needed buildings or to create evo's or use depleted gas extractors in a middle-ground scenario, and how would those decisions be evaluated? Or... Maybe I'm asking the wrong question. I know that back in the early days of HotS (the viper didn't exist in WoL) the meta was rather solidly in favor of creating throwaway buildings to feed the vipers outside of a dire emergency. At the time, the pro-player consensus among pro-gamer replays that the best cost-benefit was evo chambers or depleted vespene extractors if one was available early enough into the lategame. (Costs of minerals, drone, available supply during drone-stage, time spent hatching drone, time spent morphing evo, effort to secure good location for evo's, plus downtime for the vipers spent drawing energy *** benefits of building HP points per cost-unit.) So I guess what I'm asking is, why has that meta fallen away? Was it a case of the viper being a new unit and therefore the full meta took those first few years of HotS to flesh out the meta into what we see today? Have there been balance patches that significantly factor into this viper-management in some way? (Evo cost, evo HP, evo morph time, exact recharge rate of "Consume" ability, Consume ability-distance changes, or some radical set of overlapping factors that really necessitates forgoing the throwaway evo tactics I'm recalling?)
Why is he so good at this comp? Lowko have you forgotten that lategame ZvZ comp is Hydra Lurker Viper? Serral's mastered this style for a while now. Serral vs Dark for the world championship comes to mind especially. Looks like its useful against mech now. Lurkers vs bio? I think they still have the same problems as before.
My thoughts exactly! Serral probably has the best ZvZ in the world, and as an European Zerg, lategame ZvZ (which is all about hydra/lurker/viper control) is his bread and butter. It makes perfect sense that this playstyle would fit him a glove.
You're right, Alex. You will never be this good---because you will be better. I'm pegging you to win Blizzcon WCS next year. Hopefully, you play For The Swarm!
I wonder if going mass ghosts would counter those Vipers and Infestors? Then follow up with Bio. It seems that terran mech is useless against Zerg tier 3 armies.
You get about 6-8 ghost would do but not mass. EMP and Snip is just at the edge of both lurkers and Overseer. So get in and get out quick choosing between snipe vs emp.
As much as i love see terran loose and zerg win i can't help but think, protoss's ability to feedback insta kill energy based units was nerfed to almost uslless, vipers have a simular function (as in yanked into entire army range) for all units but their left alone
They've been nerfing the race of the best current player since forever. Remember the two nerfs of the reaper because Byun was so unbelievably good with them?
So.... what's the risk that Zerg has to take to be able to abduct or blinding cloud units? Sure, they have to go into Thor range, but they won't die to Thors. And their energy is infinitely replenishable and literally unless you fly these vipers into turrets and just hold command them there, you will have infinite cost efficiency. In what way can Terran punish Zerg for building a lot of Vipers?
Not let them build a lot of Vipers. To build a lot of Vipers means that you've not been challenged. No enemy attacks, no run-bys, etc. If you're free to build that many expensive units and supply them with energy via building health, your enemy has made a grave mistake...that mistake here was losing those 4 or 5 BCs to neural parasites, because they were outmaneuvered and the infestors even lived to tell the tale. Yamato Cannon has a cast range of 10. Abduct only a range of 9. Neural parasite range of 8 (14 with upgrade). And a Viper only has 150 HP. In any case you should be able to control a few Vipers with those BCs before they die, then your ground army mops up the Zerg Hydras, because they're terrible against Tanks and Thors. Another viable strategy are Vikings...scout, scout, scout and pick those Vipers off as soon as you see them. You need about 8 or 9 Vikings to oneshot a Viper. Not an unreasonable number. They also have a range of 9. The Ghost also has a larger range with Snipe (Steady Targeting) and kills Vipers with 1 shot. Same goes for EMP...Vipers without energy are useless. It's a tug of war, sure, but as with anything...don't let the Zerg player run rampant. Medivacs with transformed Hellions could also have done a bit more damage. But just stubbornly producing tanks and thors and then 3 liberators...pointless.
They should make it so Vipers can't yoink massive units such as capital ships, Thors, or Collosus. That way, key powerful units would stick around and get their value, while "cheaper" armies could still have immortals, medivacs, siege tanks, and even lurkers pulled around. Not so sure in terms of story telling if a viper can even grab an Archon (wouldn't the tentacle burn up?) but why let role playing get in the way of balancing a game only the pros play....
@@peterc504 Vipers could also just Abduct the Vikings into the hydras. If you mass them, suddenly you have a bunch of vikings vs hydra lurker. This is incredibly annoying to play against as terran. Yes it takes high skill but these players have the APM. The problem I think is that terran mech just is not that micro-able. Marines can be split, kite other units, multi-prong harass into bases, pickup-micro. Vipers are also very good countering near everything Abduct counters siege tanks, thors, BCs, Liberators. Soft counter to vikings in low quantities. Blinding cloud counters all ground units since all terran units are ranged. Plus consume allows you to constantly do it. He needed some Ghosts and EMP. Ghosts are the best terran unit right now since they counter infestors and vipers. Its a new patch and players are just learning what works.
the purpose of the viper is break apart turtling terran defenses or pick apart unbeatable protoss deathballs. why tf would anyone make vipers to abduct a medivac or a fucking viking lmao?
I rarely watch Serral matches, it's like watching a movie you already know the the ending to. But I will say, the Lurkers and Vipers were spiffy, but jeez. No race has a chance against Serral as Zerg. Just conceded all matches against him and save yourself some time.
Now that I think about it, if they made it so Vipers can't abduct massive units: Thors, Carriers, Tempests, Mothership, Battlecruizers, then suddenly zerg late-game wouldn't look so OP against enemy air and terran mech. I mean, I can get behind Vipers being strong counter to Cyclone/Hellion runbys by eliminating enemy expensive and squishy cyclones, but it does seem a bit unfair how they can get super expensive units into zerg's army for quick anihilation. (Also, I doubt in starcraft lore, Viper is big and strong enough to pull away units that are several times bigger and heavier). In any case, in late game Vipers make zerg army very cost-efficient, and it is a bad thing since zerg always have advantage in terms of economy. It really makes terran mech and sometimes even protoss air suffer slow and painful death, being bitten little by little until there's nothing left.
@@louisdrouard9211 How would it make Vipers useless? They still have parasitic bomb that can hurt enemy air units that stick to close to each other. They can still pull medivacs full of units into zerg army, they can still abduct expensive cyclones, siege tanks, voidrays, immortals and so on. The only thing what would change is that: It wouldn't be able to easily tear apart protoss air that is full of super expensive units, and it wouldn't be able to easily dispose of Thor, allowing Mech to defend against Vipers. How else can mech players keep their 300 mineral/200 gas Thors that lack mobility form being shreded to pieces, when it is their main source of AA against Vipers? (Vikings doesn't get bonus from vechicle weapon upgrade and are squishy and weak to parasiting bomb). What I try to say is that Vipers seems too strong counter to any army that have a lot of expensive units, which is why it is a lot safer for terran to go into bio rather than mech. If Viper would have more limitation on what it can pull away, it would let terran and protoss more space for expensive armies.
@Tegridy Farms I dunno about this. Personally, I think it would be better if Vipers couldn't abduct massive units, and in return abduct would become 10-20% less expensive. Or how about something like this. Abducting massive units would be twice more expensive. So Viper would have a choice, to either abduct two siege-tanks, or one thor. The idea behind it is to lessen the pressure that Vipers can put on Protoss Air and Terran Mech. This change would allow Terrans to fight back with Thors without Vipers just abducting them all and getting rid of the only efficient anty-air. And protoss air wouldn'y be teared apart so quickly.
I like all the spells that Viper has except abduct. It's to omnipotent. Would be nice if they made abduct like concussion shell and not effect massive. (That's an example of a balanced ability.) Then reduce microbial shroud cost to half and make it Lair tech. Then give zerg what it needs, a powerful air unit the Devourer morphed from mutalisk with greater spire.
Lmfao, this is pretty much you saying “anything that outrange my high range units from Zerg is OP” even when they have like what, Lurkers and Broodlord and only casters When Protoss and Terrans have like 4-5 direct siege units in them require no casting. Yah sure
i know it's hard to think of this during the game but a couple bashees would of probably stall the zerg push since Serral would need a overseer and even so thors could focus down the overseer
It's absolutely insane how powerful Vipers and Infestors are compared to literally any other spellcasters in the game. Like, Lowko talks about fighting around Vipers and not losing the thors and tanks, but there's not much you can do with that insane range and the fact that Neural Parasite turns your own units against you.
@@peterc504 PS can certainly do some good damage, but it's easy to walk right out of. Fungal makes your enemy slow enough that you can pick off their units easily, and the Vipers pull ability basically can yoink your enemies expensive units into the meatgrinder that is your army. Neural basically gives you free units since it takes control of your enemies units and turns them on each other.
That is why the others races have a way of removing energy. A good emp can force you to kill one of your lair or loose to a push you can not counter without spellcaster.
@@peterc504 Psi storm is basically a fungal on a super slow unit that dies after using it while fungal can be used multiple times, can burrow, can run fast as hell, and can neural.
Hm, I wonder how these pros would handle playing against each other with the Micro Transactions mutator. Not coop or versus, but against each other where microing your units costs...
A mass of Vikings and tanks would do the job, Thor’s aren’t mobile enough for vipers and possibly ravens with the bombs, spider mines can be nasty too if it’s protected by tanks
If only Vikings didn't suck, Terran could have a solution to mass Vipers. What's the Terran solution? Cyclones to target the Vipers? Maybe if they didn't cost as much as a tank each. Ghosts? Overseers and Lurkers hard counter those. Perhaps if EMPs disabled detection by affected units/structures for a short time? Possibly even scans. That way a squad of Ghosts could work together to penetrate enemy positions, assassinate targets, or deploy nukes. I also like the idea of Abduct energy cost scaling to the unit being abducted. Say, 50+unit size. Abducting a Mothership, Carrier, Battlecruiser, Sieged-up Tank, or Thor should cost 175-200 energy. Also, units being abducted should still be able to fire. Abduct seems to stun or disable units, which basically means they're out of the fight the moment Abduct is cast, not when it finishes and the unit gets destroyed.
The answer to mass vipers IS ghost, you emp them. If they have no energy they are useless. And of course the zerg will go for a comp to cover said weaken much like a terran or a protoss do. Serral got slowly but constantly ahead (just think of the damage losing those early mules did to the terran economy) until he could get an army lead with a massive pick comp and cleaned inno army.
Those beholders with tentacles are really slow but the baby bats gathering stuff are so cute. I would not want to meet the mosquitos with tongues as long as John Holmes´s privates, they are really scary and should be eradicated.
Omg, no wonder serral is the best. Those vipers man! Killed so much. I don't know why innovation kept doing the same against that composition, i guess it is very difficult improvise mid game. Lurkers increased range makes it difficult to use ghosts though
Maybe he could make more bcs and yamato those vipers. Interesting to see what top players can comeup for counters. I bet we will see lots of replications of serral composition in this game on lower ladders 😁 beware terrans!
Sina that’s a lot of resources. Even with yamatos, the yoinks can still happen and Hydras will just have a hayday. Last I checked, making a viper statistically is cheaper than BCs. Regarding people saying to use ghosts and EMPS, it’s hard to do that with Lurker’s improved range. Even if EMPS went off that game, the vipers will just sap off energy off a building anyways.
@@hildekrone5108 bcs have lots of health and can jump so they could mostly survive the abductions and attack again and again. But also i guess 8 vikings could single shot any viper that tried to get close for abduction. Either way going for air was a better counter i think
@@Sina-xw4xp For the record, my earlier post wasn't meant to just "counter" your post. Just trying to say it in the context of practicality (especially in that match) Serral already had the contain set up with a respectable amount of vipers, hydras, and lurkers. Viking production could have greatly helped, but it was difficult to deal with the lurkers/hydras sitting outside as a pseudo frontline (saying in the context of that match)
@@mohdrosniezam8779 anti-energy spells like feedback and EMP are inherently worse than spells that use energy to do other things. The counter is only useful some of the time, while powerful spells are useful all the time.
The difference between 9 and 10 range Lurkers is huge, especially in TvZ for the reason you mentioned, they now outrange planetaries. Planetaries used to be the bane of Zergs until Broodlords and Btoodlords were squishy and not as easy to defend from Vikings and Thors. Now with Lurkers it's much easier to assault planetaries and of course lets Zerg go for missile upgrades again over melee which is much more flexible.
How do you beat Serral ? He does his reasearch so perfectly. When you choose a build, he knows it and counters with timed choices. His actions are almost always flawless and mistakes are seen rarely. South Korea will never be on top again just because of Serral:P
If Zerg looks op here, it's only because Innovation decided to play mech vs spec-op units. It's like if zerg tried mass ultras against mass ghosts. Probably voices in Inno's head told him to do so :D
Michael Timothy Nope, Overseer has a range of detection of 11. Ghost has Snipe range of 10. EMP of 10 and 1.5 radius. That’s literally enough to sneak behind the back where lurkers are abit more at the front to either snipe or emp and run away.
My Brotoss friends! If you dont want to see this happen to you, check out Harstem's deadly 5 minutes charglot immortal all in. Guaranteed you won't have to deal with yoinks and neurals
Said it before, I'm sure I'll say it again: Massive units should be immune to Neural and Abduct. (And siege mode should probably be immune to abduct as well.) Or to put it another way: How many zerg spells would the other factions _not_ want to trade for any one of _their_ spells?
@@AngryScissor, but then Blizzard forgot to include viable counterplay options against Neural and Abduct. I don't insist on the immunity, but until there's a way to shut down zerg's ability to arbitrarily and without counterplay force any enemy unit into a killbox, zerg will dominate at the GM/professional level.
Dam first time being early, also a good game I’ve been watching several lately as I’m just starting to play Zerg and I’m in diamond so I watch serial go get new Stewart’s to push for master so this was a good matchup to watch
Well, then let's assimilate this Cheshire Cat, so all of our Zerg units can have a terrifying, shit-eating grin on their faces, as they brutally slaughter Terran and Protoss scum thought the galaxy!? What do you say? You in? For The Swarm!
I think the best solution to increase the range of Ghost's snipe. So they can kill them before it becomes a big problem. Zerg has neural and abduct to counter all the powerful units of Terran. Terran should have long distance sniping to balance it out.
What people seem to be overlooking (mostly due to being triggered as hell) is that innovation made some major mistakes early on in the game due to which serral was able MASSIVELY set back innovation's economy which kept him from maxing on his mech army. That seems to be the entire gameplan of serral after the patch; keep your opponent's economy low early on and prevent them from taking a fourth, because once the terran or protoss maxes out there is no stopping them.
Ghost would get killed by the lurkers improve range. Vikings would get wrecked by hydras. EMP? Vipers can refuel energy on the fly when they consume hatch or other buildings. You think Serral haven't think of all that? That's why he made that army combo. He can counter the counters.
It's pretty funny when zerg was given the most deserving and hard set of nerfs it has gotten in a long time; and at the highest level, it still hasn't seemed to losea beat of its overpoweredness.
This was such an awesome game and both Serral and Inno are so freakishly good. This game though, Serral was dominating because Inno never really got his footing. He went for mech and decided to sit back and bunker up while he maxes out and gets his upgrades. That's mostly how you play mech nowadays with just a few helions running around the map. Serral didn't want to give Inno that opportunity and so he Serral-ed him. With overwhelming macro and micro. It just feels so sad that people look at games like this and go "Nerf zerg!" while 99.9% of all zerg players couldn't pull even half of the stuff Serral does. I'm at Masters and i could only dream to be able to go lurkers/vipers/hydras against mech. They destroy me every time because i don't have an avarage of 450+ APM. Now the only choice you have late game is to go Broodlords and guess what, mech destroys Broodlords if they have any gamesense at all. Nerf zerg because of Serral -> Make the game harder for the avarage player. Hmpf.
Flash Also, just make it so yoink doesn't work against massive units. It's only logical. What are you goinna do, omit all your upgrades and go marines against vipers? Doesn't seem viable. Rally-mech? Gets chewed by lurkers. Mass vikings? Chewed by hydras. Ravens? Maybe... But they'll most likely die before they get seeker missiles off....Maybe ghosts? Idk... Nerfing yoink against massive seems the best choice IMO. I play random btw so I don't have a dog in the fight.
Even if it couldn't pull massive. It would still have loads of units to abduct, blinding cloud, and parasitic cloud. No reason why it wouldn't be used in the late game.
It insect so kind of make sense Don't think insect like human cuz insect have stronger strength compare to human when it comes to how many times body weight it can lift
@@Diree Lol then what is the use of a mothership that so big but easily abduct then got fungal and parasitic then die, or BC which already countered by mass corruptor adding vipers just make them more weaker
I normally agree with Lowko's commentary, but calling this style of play difficult is ridiculous. Even I, at Silver, can build some Hydralisks and use Vipers to yank expensive units into the Hydra ball before running away. Zerg have too many answers. They have the best spellcasters in the game, they have amazing late-game scaling, and they can stopper weaknesses too quickly. Watching games with Zerg are boring; it's the same units and same strategies over and over again. It's why Zerg players get cheesed so hard by cannon rushes, proxy Barracks/Gateways, and early all-ins: you have to destroy them before the Tier 2 units and spellcasters start coming in or it's all over. That does not make for interesting games.
Sure, if you ignore the macro in between and the lurkers management and all the harass and scouting before... Yeah, a silver can do it. If it's so easy... Why are you still silver? Cause it's not when you actually consider everything and not focus on the flashy thing. Reality check, you would have panic died to the 3 BCs way before reaching the death ball of lurkers/hydra/viper to critical mass and working.
@@Ensatzuken You're right, of course. I would not have known what to do against the battlecruisers except to throw queens at them. But then again I'm not a professional. And to a professional, this strategy is beyond easy. Which is my point.
@@Josh-99 Against another professional which make pulling off the strat not easy. On paper any strat is easy "just do x, y and z"... Then you remember the opponent exist and will not let you do it as easily.
Innovation didn't play sc2 in 2011, he played professionnally the game when the kespa pro swtiched from bw to sc2 around 2012/2013 and was considered as the absolute best during the first 6 months of hots. Then he has ups and downs
Innovation: Let's set up these Liberators and Tanks here
Serral: Let's set up these Liberators and Tanks here
LOOL true
same with BC lol
Are you ready to posible Starcraft 3, if Overwatch 2 and Diablo 3 was presented in Blizzcon 2019. Says to 🇵🇪.
Thors need hero tag
@@prixtront7240 medivac-pickup on thors leads to some nuts micro against mutalisks
6:58 It only arrive once the galaxy and the stars are aligned, serral is supply blocked
The end is near
he obviously did it on purpose to make it seem like he is human
@@TheCoastalRipper This makes a lot of sense, he's pretending to be a human to make people feel like they have a chance.
@@TheCoastalRipper shh, you'll blow his cover
Everyone has been freaking out about the infested terran, but I still maintain that yoink is zerg's strongest spell.
In the right hands, definitely yes.
think if high templar could ear shields to get energy its broken
Agreed. What's the point of Terran having range with Thors/Seige Tanks when all of their higher tiered units can be abducted and there's absolutely no way to counter it. This match was over from the beginning, props to Serral for the early mule destruction but these matches are kinda not fun to watch anymore.
@@TheOprostaj i didn't see that many vikings... those shoot down vipers in a hurry. Stop crying about balance. I get crushed by this style that innovation played a lot as zerg. i only have like a 40% win against Terran. Its the hardest to beat as zerg in my opinion.
Are you ready to posible Starcraft 3, if Overwatch 2 and Diablo 3 was presented in Blizzcon 2019. Says to 🇵🇪.
Lowko, you forgot about the greatest player, the filthiest sewer mermaid to ever cannon rush, Florencio!!
Most definitely
But the best ca on rusher is PrintF even Flo recognize it. Flo is the best troller iPod SCII in the World, but the best canon rusher is printF
If Serral keeps this up he's gonna ruin zerg for the rest of us when they nerf zerg into oblivion. We're gonna be left with lings without speed and queens with no legs.
queen with no legs? like brood war version?
@@swordlink93 no the queen will be on the ground wiggling around, the new slowest unit in the game.
Bruh.... The SC2 GOAT is obviously Idra.
*Que epic rage quit against hallucinated army*
I saw that live lol
Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time...
Idra had such a bad attitude and mindset. He was bound to fall to his hubris
The Viper essentially is just a bug, or maybe a big bug, it doesn’t make any sense to me that it can pull colossal war machines like battle cruisers and thors over so easily. And tanks that are sieged up, they supposed to have dug inches if not feet into the ground when sieged... I think at least for bigger units, it should cost more energy for vipers to pull, like BCs it should take a full energy viper to pull one BC.
its a game....
Justin Thomason yeah man, it’s a game, but the tournament winner gets a couple of hundreds K bucks, so it’s also a business.
@@0909ttt A business that some are better at than others. haha. Serral is stupid good at this game. I think the idea of more energy for larger yoinks might be a good idea. I still think its not imbalanced. Where were the ghosts? Not that many vikings? Innovation knows how to counter he was just flustered from the get go. I get destroyed by this style from T as Z.
gameplay > logic
Justin Thomason yeah, I agree. I think Innovation got stuck to thors and siege tanks for too long. Putting mass ghosts and Vikings can change the course of this game for sure. From the moment that he got soft contained with 4 bases and not able to expend, I felt like this might be it... he was too busy dealing with all the attacks to think of switching units combinations..
if terran just had a unit that removes energy from enemys hmm
I think Blizz will remove the viper ability to restore energy by sucking thing. they will add an upgrade to get them at high energy when they spawn and that's it.
the really OP part of abduct is that vipers can just do it over and over again by recovering their energy, as you can see at the very end of the video
yeah, its like using your bombs in Raiden II continuously. but with lots of effort and control
yeah then not a single viper will ever be built again and lazy terrans can just a-move thors to win every game.
So let me get this straight. Lurker, an unit that was meant to be a strong counter against numberous weak units like terran bio, is actually bad against terran bio due to its mobility, but instead it is extremely strong against terran mech and protoss ground army, something it shouldn't be good against...
This doesn't make any sense.
Other things I find odd is how hellions have big bonus vs light units, yet Zerg hydras still smash them into pieces. Protoss Adepts have massive damage boost vs light, and yet terran marines and zerg hydras still smash them. Hydras are meant to be zerg AA, yet BC overpower them easily. Protoss Tempest was meant to specialize in hunting massive units, yet BC and Thors are actually counter to them, and Thors that are meant to serve as strong AA for terran gets melted so easily the moment zerg gets a few flying Vipers out. And Terran Vikings that are meant to counter enemy armored air becomes useless when enemy spell casters gets involved.
I swear, there's tons of stuff in starcraft that works different than intended, for better or worse.
Kmpg os4 Lurkers are great against both it turns out. Hydra vs Hellion really is just a battle of who kills who first. Hydra DPS is single target and way higher, Hellions do splash and attack quite slowly.
There is more to it than just Rock-Paper-Scissoring through all the units you know.
The Zealot vs Marine/Hydra point you made for example, doesnt quite cover all theres to it since it ignores that both Marines and Hydras are ranged, therefore allowing them to attack first, take advantage of highgrounds and kite the Zealots if they dont have charge yet.
@@LowkoTV
From what I've seen, Lurker prove less efficient against Bio. Sure, it can kill terran bio quickly if they don't pay attention, but at the same time M-M-M units seem quite capaible to outmanouver them.
Mech on the other side lack that mobility, and Viper seem incredibly cost-efficient against any army that have expensive units. While against Bio it can only pull siege tanks and medivacs at best, aginst mech and protoss air it can do far superb damage.
@@YodasMessenger I know it ismore than just Rock-Paper-Scissors, which is why I sad at the end "for better or worse", but it still comes as very odd when specific unit is equipted with really big advantage against specific unit, only for both units to show the opposite in practice. It just feels really weird at times.
Also, I wasn't talking about zelots but adepts. Adept have very high bonus vs light, yet other than workers, it seems to fail in direct combat. You can try to shade army of adepts into army of bio/hydras, but we both know who'll come atop in this exchange, and it certainly won't be unit with large bonus vs light.
A "flying" organic unit pulling a THOR (like 5000 kg or something?) while "flying", it's completely logical and fine; a unit named as Lurker dealing slightly reduced damage to some unit types, it's unacceptable.
Seriously watching a THOR sized unit getting pulled by a tiny little creature was so cringy.
11:40 Strangely feels like a "Legacy of the Void Gameplay Showcase" first ever footage. As if Serral pulling those units was scripted gameplay and the showcase was displaying Viper Abilities.
Just realized Several was toying with him the whole game. That last base so close to terran just to feed the viper energy was hilarious.
no such thin ga shilariox ro not, cepux, do, laugh any nmw
Innovation: Let's set up these Liberators and Tanks here as defense....
Vipers: (edit) *HARHARHARHARHAR*
Hahahaha you thought is Carbot? Oh wait that's muta munch and I still can recall those viper annoying laugh
Well good advice, I changed that!
wrg,idts, laugh any nmw
Yes, using highly positional units and units that have to be seiged up against casters that were specifically designed to mess up positions and seiged units was braindead. That's kinda how Inno is though. He is not a thinker. But I do think he will watch the meta and practice enough to remain dominant.
Man that hydra/lurker/viper combo just horseraped that mech.
Simple fact: Terran lost air superiority and that was the game. Mech ground units don't kill Vipers efficiently. He needed to have conserved the BCs and Yamato'd them down, plus a few Vikings. The Thors were practically glorified loot pinatas for the Zerg player. Not enough range and dead on arrival...
I agree. I think this game looks so one-sided because Innovation lost those three battlecruisers early.
Or you know....Ghost???
You guys never build them against zerg casters for some reasons and it can snipe vipers so easily.
I never see Raven either.
Abduct should not work on massive units. Remove Consume. Balanced.
Just making thors immune would be huge.
Just playing the game effectively counters Vipers as well. They're expensive late game units and the Terran player let the situation get out of hand with no counter to them, like Yamato cannons or Vikings. It was pretty obvious how this one would end. People jump to conclusions too quickly imho. The whole point of the Zerg race is to overwhelm you with infinite numbers...and if you let it get THAT far, then you should lose. No effective counter attacks either, apart from a few drones (Okay, quite a few drones, but no structural damage). Terran can shut down Vipers easily by sniping them off. Heck, even Ghosts would have been a good counter with snipe and EMP...
8:18 Spore crawler does the Grampa Simpson hat-off, hat-on lol
Omfg it does! It sees 3 BC and is like "Nope, nope, nope" 🤣
Lowko you are one of the all time greats in my books. Thank you for all that you do.
Nicely casted and explained @Lowko. We basically saw a Zerg hardcounter to Terran mech.
The number of grabs by vipers in this replay was just silly...
Honest question: In lategame zerg with vipers, what are the things that a high level player will take note of when deciding whether or not to plop down 3-5 evo chambers for the task as opposed to siphoning some energy from a lair / hive? I obviously understand that there's time-cost in waiting for the evo chambers to pop out / lost mining time from the drones. I also realize that it's a lot easier to decide to use the hive the way Serral does here at 10:28, because the creep spread and overlord vision meant that the likelihood of the hive needing that HP for an attack was very low.
I'm asking about the tipping point between those two extremes. Is there any "correct" way to decide whether to use functioning / needed buildings or to create evo's or use depleted gas extractors in a middle-ground scenario, and how would those decisions be evaluated?
Or... Maybe I'm asking the wrong question. I know that back in the early days of HotS (the viper didn't exist in WoL) the meta was rather solidly in favor of creating throwaway buildings to feed the vipers outside of a dire emergency. At the time, the pro-player consensus among pro-gamer replays that the best cost-benefit was evo chambers or depleted vespene extractors if one was available early enough into the lategame. (Costs of minerals, drone, available supply during drone-stage, time spent hatching drone, time spent morphing evo, effort to secure good location for evo's, plus downtime for the vipers spent drawing energy *** benefits of building HP points per cost-unit.)
So I guess what I'm asking is, why has that meta fallen away? Was it a case of the viper being a new unit and therefore the full meta took those first few years of HotS to flesh out the meta into what we see today? Have there been balance patches that significantly factor into this viper-management in some way? (Evo cost, evo HP, evo morph time, exact recharge rate of "Consume" ability, Consume ability-distance changes, or some radical set of overlapping factors that really necessitates forgoing the throwaway evo tactics I'm recalling?)
A game of monsters.
Terrified of the rise of Reynor. So much time to improve and already insanely good.
Why is he so good at this comp? Lowko have you forgotten that lategame ZvZ comp is Hydra Lurker Viper? Serral's mastered this style for a while now. Serral vs Dark for the world championship comes to mind especially. Looks like its useful against mech now. Lurkers vs bio? I think they still have the same problems as before.
My thoughts exactly! Serral probably has the best ZvZ in the world, and as an European Zerg, lategame ZvZ (which is all about hydra/lurker/viper control) is his bread and butter. It makes perfect sense that this playstyle would fit him a glove.
Holy cow. That was insane !! I will never be this good
You're right, Alex. You will never be this good---because you will be better. I'm pegging you to win Blizzcon WCS next year. Hopefully, you play For The Swarm!
@@barryclark6119 I will not disappoint you !!! I shall defeat my enemies for the swarm ! 🐝🐜🐛🦗🕷🦂🦂🦟
I wonder if going mass ghosts would counter those Vipers and Infestors? Then follow up with Bio. It seems that terran mech is useless against Zerg tier 3 armies.
You get about 6-8 ghost would do but not mass.
EMP and Snip is just at the edge of both lurkers and Overseer.
So get in and get out quick choosing between snipe vs emp.
As much as i love see terran loose and zerg win i can't help but think, protoss's ability to feedback insta kill energy based units was nerfed to almost uslless, vipers have a simular function (as in yanked into entire army range) for all units but their left alone
2 Innovation video in a week?
That was awesome
Can we have Serral play tournaments with handicap so that they stop nerfing zerg?
Just go ignore every aspect of the game and balance 'couse Serral is good
They've been nerfing the race of the best current player since forever.
Remember the two nerfs of the reaper because Byun was so unbelievably good with them?
All I hear is, Zerg still has a counter to Terran literally just sitting there throwing hellions at drones.
So.... what's the risk that Zerg has to take to be able to abduct or blinding cloud units? Sure, they have to go into Thor range, but they won't die to Thors. And their energy is infinitely replenishable and literally unless you fly these vipers into turrets and just hold command them there, you will have infinite cost efficiency. In what way can Terran punish Zerg for building a lot of Vipers?
Not let them build a lot of Vipers. To build a lot of Vipers means that you've not been challenged. No enemy attacks, no run-bys, etc. If you're free to build that many expensive units and supply them with energy via building health, your enemy has made a grave mistake...that mistake here was losing those 4 or 5 BCs to neural parasites, because they were outmaneuvered and the infestors even lived to tell the tale. Yamato Cannon has a cast range of 10. Abduct only a range of 9. Neural parasite range of 8 (14 with upgrade). And a Viper only has 150 HP. In any case you should be able to control a few Vipers with those BCs before they die, then your ground army mops up the Zerg Hydras, because they're terrible against Tanks and Thors. Another viable strategy are Vikings...scout, scout, scout and pick those Vipers off as soon as you see them. You need about 8 or 9 Vikings to oneshot a Viper. Not an unreasonable number. They also have a range of 9. The Ghost also has a larger range with Snipe (Steady Targeting) and kills Vipers with 1 shot. Same goes for EMP...Vipers without energy are useless. It's a tug of war, sure, but as with anything...don't let the Zerg player run rampant. Medivacs with transformed Hellions could also have done a bit more damage. But just stubbornly producing tanks and thors and then 3 liberators...pointless.
They should make it so Vipers can't yoink massive units such as capital ships, Thors, or Collosus. That way, key powerful units would stick around and get their value, while "cheaper" armies could still have immortals, medivacs, siege tanks, and even lurkers pulled around. Not so sure in terms of story telling if a viper can even grab an Archon (wouldn't the tentacle burn up?) but why let role playing get in the way of balancing a game only the pros play....
Theyd be useless then..In this particular game inno coulda just massed vikings & taken then vipers out instead of massing tanks
@@peterc504
Vipers could also just Abduct the Vikings into the hydras. If you mass them, suddenly you have a bunch of vikings vs hydra lurker.
This is incredibly annoying to play against as terran. Yes it takes high skill but these players have the APM.
The problem I think is that terran mech just is not that micro-able. Marines can be split, kite other units, multi-prong harass into bases, pickup-micro.
Vipers are also very good countering near everything Abduct counters siege tanks, thors, BCs, Liberators. Soft counter to vikings in low quantities. Blinding cloud counters all ground units since all terran units are ranged. Plus consume allows you to constantly do it.
He needed some Ghosts and EMP. Ghosts are the best terran unit right now since they counter infestors and vipers.
Its a new patch and players are just learning what works.
the purpose of the viper is break apart turtling terran defenses or pick apart unbeatable protoss deathballs. why tf would anyone make vipers to abduct a medivac or a fucking viking lmao?
Aw man I was waiting for you to cast this game for so long, so bad they didn't have you during the Grand Final Nation War
18:35 Literally built an offensive proxy hatch at the end just to sap it for energy, so baller.
Blizzard : we remove infested terrans
Serral : let's make a tactic with a kind of infested vipers
I rarely watch Serral matches, it's like watching a movie you already know the the ending to. But I will say, the Lurkers and Vipers were spiffy, but jeez. No race has a chance against Serral as Zerg. Just conceded all matches against him and save yourself some time.
To beat serral. U need Someone as good as reynor and actually use Zerg too
Now that I think about it, if they made it so Vipers can't abduct massive units: Thors, Carriers, Tempests, Mothership, Battlecruizers, then suddenly zerg late-game wouldn't look so OP against enemy air and terran mech. I mean, I can get behind Vipers being strong counter to Cyclone/Hellion runbys by eliminating enemy expensive and squishy cyclones, but it does seem a bit unfair how they can get super expensive units into zerg's army for quick anihilation. (Also, I doubt in starcraft lore, Viper is big and strong enough to pull away units that are several times bigger and heavier).
In any case, in late game Vipers make zerg army very cost-efficient, and it is a bad thing since zerg always have advantage in terms of economy. It really makes terran mech and sometimes even protoss air suffer slow and painful death, being bitten little by little until there's nothing left.
@@louisdrouard9211
How would it make Vipers useless? They still have parasitic bomb that can hurt enemy air units that stick to close to each other. They can still pull medivacs full of units into zerg army, they can still abduct expensive cyclones, siege tanks, voidrays, immortals and so on.
The only thing what would change is that: It wouldn't be able to easily tear apart protoss air that is full of super expensive units, and it wouldn't be able to easily dispose of Thor, allowing Mech to defend against Vipers.
How else can mech players keep their 300 mineral/200 gas Thors that lack mobility form being shreded to pieces, when it is their main source of AA against Vipers? (Vikings doesn't get bonus from vechicle weapon upgrade and are squishy and weak to parasiting bomb).
What I try to say is that Vipers seems too strong counter to any army that have a lot of expensive units, which is why it is a lot safer for terran to go into bio rather than mech. If Viper would have more limitation on what it can pull away, it would let terran and protoss more space for expensive armies.
@Tegridy Farms
I dunno about this. Personally, I think it would be better if Vipers couldn't abduct massive units, and in return abduct would become 10-20% less expensive.
Or how about something like this. Abducting massive units would be twice more expensive. So Viper would have a choice, to either abduct two siege-tanks, or one thor.
The idea behind it is to lessen the pressure that Vipers can put on Protoss Air and Terran Mech.
This change would allow Terrans to fight back with Thors without Vipers just abducting them all and getting rid of the only efficient anty-air. And protoss air wouldn'y be teared apart so quickly.
I like all the spells that Viper has except abduct. It's to omnipotent. Would be nice if they made abduct like concussion shell and not effect massive. (That's an example of a balanced ability.) Then reduce microbial shroud cost to half and make it Lair tech. Then give zerg what it needs, a powerful air unit the Devourer morphed from mutalisk with greater spire.
Lmfao, this is pretty much you saying “anything that outrange my high range units from Zerg is OP” even when they have like what, Lurkers and Broodlord and only casters
When Protoss and Terrans have like 4-5 direct siege units in them require no casting.
Yah sure
I am wondering what kind of option is available to Innovation there. Maybe more liberators instead of siege tanks and thor?
i know it's hard to think of this during the game but a couple bashees would of probably stall the zerg push since Serral would need a overseer and even so thors could focus down the overseer
It's absolutely insane how powerful Vipers and Infestors are compared to literally any other spellcasters in the game. Like, Lowko talks about fighting around Vipers and not losing the thors and tanks, but there's not much you can do with that insane range and the fact that Neural Parasite turns your own units against you.
Psionic Storm is pretty insane
@@peterc504 PS can certainly do some good damage, but it's easy to walk right out of. Fungal makes your enemy slow enough that you can pick off their units easily, and the Vipers pull ability basically can yoink your enemies expensive units into the meatgrinder that is your army. Neural basically gives you free units since it takes control of your enemies units and turns them on each other.
That is why the others races have a way of removing energy. A good emp can force you to kill one of your lair or loose to a push you can not counter without spellcaster.
Well that why emp exist
@@peterc504 Psi storm is basically a fungal on a super slow unit that dies after using it while fungal can be used multiple times, can burrow, can run fast as hell, and can neural.
Jaedong the Tyrant! He was amazing back in the day
Hm, I wonder how these pros would handle playing against each other with the Micro Transactions mutator. Not coop or versus, but against each other where microing your units costs...
Really need to reduce pull range or make bigger units pull for less. Thats just to powerful.
@Lowko - would consider Maru in the Top 5 though?
A mass of Vikings and tanks would do the job, Thor’s aren’t mobile enough for vipers and possibly ravens with the bombs, spider mines can be nasty too if it’s protected by tanks
If only Vikings didn't suck, Terran could have a solution to mass Vipers. What's the Terran solution? Cyclones to target the Vipers? Maybe if they didn't cost as much as a tank each. Ghosts? Overseers and Lurkers hard counter those.
Perhaps if EMPs disabled detection by affected units/structures for a short time? Possibly even scans. That way a squad of Ghosts could work together to penetrate enemy positions, assassinate targets, or deploy nukes.
I also like the idea of Abduct energy cost scaling to the unit being abducted. Say, 50+unit size. Abducting a Mothership, Carrier, Battlecruiser, Sieged-up Tank, or Thor should cost 175-200 energy. Also, units being abducted should still be able to fire. Abduct seems to stun or disable units, which basically means they're out of the fight the moment Abduct is cast, not when it finishes and the unit gets destroyed.
The answer to mass vipers IS ghost, you emp them. If they have no energy they are useless.
And of course the zerg will go for a comp to cover said weaken much like a terran or a protoss do.
Serral got slowly but constantly ahead (just think of the damage losing those early mules did to the terran economy) until he could get an army lead with a massive pick comp and cleaned inno army.
@@Ensatzuken At least someone understands the Basics...thanks!
this match was so beautiful I will watch it again
Those beholders with tentacles are really slow but the baby bats gathering stuff are so cute. I would not want to meet the mosquitos with tongues as long as John Holmes´s privates, they are really scary and should be eradicated.
Omg, no wonder serral is the best. Those vipers man! Killed so much. I don't know why innovation kept doing the same against that composition, i guess it is very difficult improvise mid game. Lurkers increased range makes it difficult to use ghosts though
Maybe he could make more bcs and yamato those vipers. Interesting to see what top players can comeup for counters. I bet we will see lots of replications of serral composition in this game on lower ladders 😁 beware terrans!
Shame ghosts were not used at all.
Sina that’s a lot of resources. Even with yamatos, the yoinks can still happen and Hydras will just have a hayday. Last I checked, making a viper statistically is cheaper than BCs. Regarding people saying to use ghosts and EMPS, it’s hard to do that with Lurker’s improved range. Even if EMPS went off that game, the vipers will just sap off energy off a building anyways.
@@hildekrone5108 bcs have lots of health and can jump so they could mostly survive the abductions and attack again and again. But also i guess 8 vikings could single shot any viper that tried to get close for abduction. Either way going for air was a better counter i think
@@Sina-xw4xp For the record, my earlier post wasn't meant to just "counter" your post. Just trying to say it in the context of practicality (especially in that match) Serral already had the contain set up with a respectable amount of vipers, hydras, and lurkers. Viking production could have greatly helped, but it was difficult to deal with the lurkers/hydras sitting outside as a pseudo frontline (saying in the context of that match)
As a terran, i was sickend by this, i Mean... Man... Thats just so unfair 😭
shoulda built vikings instead of massing tanks and thors...Jeezum vipers are pretty slow.
@@peterc504 Vikings can't fight anything else in the army. Vikings can also be abducted into the Hydras.
It better than getting spam infestor Terran . There a reason why other race have abilities to remove energy
@@mohdrosniezam8779 anti-energy spells like feedback and EMP are inherently worse than spells that use energy to do other things. The counter is only useful some of the time, while powerful spells are useful all the time.
@@JorenMathews well you're correct but better than not countering
OK, right after you've seen the end of the video, just go back on the 16:09 time and watch again that moment when Lowko thinks the assault is over.
As a zerg player Serral is my hero. Not to mention I have some Lithuanian and Estonian heritage so I can claim "Baltic brotherhood", so to speak.
The difference between 9 and 10 range Lurkers is huge, especially in TvZ for the reason you mentioned, they now outrange planetaries. Planetaries used to be the bane of Zergs until Broodlords and Btoodlords were squishy and not as easy to defend from Vikings and Thors. Now with Lurkers it's much easier to assault planetaries and of course lets Zerg go for missile upgrades again over melee which is much more flexible.
broodlords were nerfed hard. now thors counter them very easily. zerg needed an alternate way to break turtling terrans.
How do you beat Serral ?
He does his reasearch so perfectly.
When you choose a build, he knows it and counters with timed choices.
His actions are almost always flawless and mistakes are seen rarely.
South Korea will never be on top again just because of Serral:P
South Korea is not on top because South Korea play other games now.
Great video lowko!
If Zerg looks op here, it's only because Innovation decided to play mech vs spec-op units. It's like if zerg tried mass ultras against mass ghosts. Probably voices in Inno's head told him to do so :D
OMG flawless victory with fatality included!!!
How do you counter vipers normally?
You kill it backup *Hydra*
Lowko for GREATEST SC2 COMMENTATOR OF ALL TIME xD
Is it just me that thinks any time someone is called the short form of "greatest of all times", "why would you insult that person and call it a goat"?
Andreas Müller Yeah it’s funny. The more I think about it tho, the more I actually quite like the term. 😂
OMG I was trying to figure out why he was calling him a goat that's hilarious
Some of my favorite content,
Love you Lowko!!!!
He should have done a tech switch to marines mid game after the first "Thor abductions"
Lowko where do you download replays??
Me, all game long: A GHOST. GET A GHOST. EMP THE VIPERS JESUS
Lurker + Overseer = your Ghost never gets near a Viper.
@@Brooke-rw8rc I know it's Serral, but it's still INnoVation. It's worth a try.
@@Brooke-rw8rc it innovation we talking about
Michael Timothy Nope, Overseer has a range of detection of 11.
Ghost has Snipe range of 10.
EMP of 10 and 1.5 radius.
That’s literally enough to sneak behind the back where lurkers are abit more at the front to either snipe or emp and run away.
Manneged to use that viper/lurker style at 50% pot maybe and even than the terran did not like it abducting feels good man :)
Vipers have unlimited energy, what do you expect.
Abducts range should be smaller, and it should take more time to yoink, cost more energy, and only one at a time.
No, definitely not.
Considering the shit tons of siege Terrans have...just no.
Just shut up really.
My Brotoss friends! If you dont want to see this happen to you, check out Harstem's deadly 5 minutes charglot immortal all in. Guaranteed you won't have to deal with yoinks and neurals
Said it before, I'm sure I'll say it again: Massive units should be immune to Neural and Abduct. (And siege mode should probably be immune to abduct as well.)
Or to put it another way: How many zerg spells would the other factions _not_ want to trade for any one of _their_ spells?
That change will never happen, because NP and abduct designed to counter the units you think should be immune to them.
@@AngryScissor, but then Blizzard forgot to include viable counterplay options against Neural and Abduct. I don't insist on the immunity, but until there's a way to shut down zerg's ability to arbitrarily and without counterplay force any enemy unit into a killbox, zerg will dominate at the GM/professional level.
Dam first time being early, also a good game I’ve been watching several lately as I’m just starting to play Zerg and I’m in diamond so I watch serial go get new Stewart’s to push for master so this was a good matchup to watch
How the heck do you fight Vipers? Just focus on building low cost units like marines?
This video made the zerg in me smile like a Cheshire cat
Well, then let's assimilate this Cheshire Cat, so all of our Zerg units can have a terrifying, shit-eating grin on their faces, as they brutally slaughter Terran and Protoss scum thought the galaxy!? What do you say? You in? For The Swarm!
Wow... that viper control. Amazing.
Zerg spell caster are just too powerful. That is counting the queen too.
I think the best solution to increase the range of Ghost's snipe. So they can kill them before it becomes a big problem. Zerg has neural and abduct to counter all the powerful units of Terran. Terran should have long distance sniping to balance it out.
no u just bad
gotta play ghosts. innovation didn't get a single ghost. empowered EMP and all those vipers would be useless.
I don't think massive units should be yoinkable
That battlecruiser skin is awesome
What people seem to be overlooking (mostly due to being triggered as hell) is that innovation made some major mistakes early on in the game due to which serral was able MASSIVELY set back innovation's economy which kept him from maxing on his mech army. That seems to be the entire gameplan of serral after the patch; keep your opponent's economy low early on and prevent them from taking a fourth, because once the terran or protoss maxes out there is no stopping them.
Does bliz think this is balanced?
It looks like serral needs to mix in a few ghosts to emp those vipers.
Really like this content
ppl that complain ghost emp snipes ez or vikings he didnt make any counters
Ghost would get killed by the lurkers improve range. Vikings would get wrecked by hydras. EMP? Vipers can refuel energy on the fly when they consume hatch or other buildings. You think Serral haven't think of all that? That's why he made that army combo. He can counter the counters.
Kaze nope, it wouldnt.
Have cloak and Snip has range enough to go in and out quickly.
Or just emp.
It's pretty funny when zerg was given the most deserving and hard set of nerfs it has gotten in a long time; and at the highest level, it still hasn't seemed to losea beat of its overpoweredness.
Was it viable? Most probably. Was it better than the old mass Infestor against Mech? Probably not.
Holy Jesus! Inno tapped out, out of pure frustration! I was enjoying this while at the same time being the Terrain. Ohh man that is so strong!
Those abducts disgusted me also
16:38 pretty sure serral was thinking that
This was such an awesome game and both Serral and Inno are so freakishly good.
This game though, Serral was dominating because Inno never really got his footing. He went for mech and decided to sit back and bunker up while he maxes out and gets his upgrades. That's mostly how you play mech nowadays with just a few helions running around the map.
Serral didn't want to give Inno that opportunity and so he Serral-ed him. With overwhelming macro and micro.
It just feels so sad that people look at games like this and go "Nerf zerg!" while 99.9% of all zerg players couldn't pull even half of the stuff Serral does. I'm at Masters and i could only dream to be able to go lurkers/vipers/hydras against mech. They destroy me every time because i don't have an avarage of 450+ APM. Now the only choice you have late game is to go Broodlords and guess what, mech destroys Broodlords if they have any gamesense at all.
Nerf zerg because of Serral -> Make the game harder for the avarage player. Hmpf.
Flash
Also, just make it so yoink doesn't work against massive units. It's only logical.
What are you goinna do, omit all your upgrades and go marines against vipers? Doesn't seem viable. Rally-mech? Gets chewed by lurkers. Mass vikings? Chewed by hydras. Ravens? Maybe... But they'll most likely die before they get seeker missiles off....Maybe ghosts? Idk... Nerfing yoink against massive seems the best choice IMO.
I play random btw so I don't have a dog in the fight.
yoinking massive should use lots of energy. so you can do it once.
Best StarCraft II player of all time?
Of course I know him,
He's me
do you know where can I find the full replay of this game?
drive.google.com/drive/folders/1U0v8QlNzHx3ZK5t5fo8z1RD9PY3In8V1
@@clee89 thankyou,, also where Serral came from? Finland?
@@reeddragon5250 yes. he is from Finland.
@@clee89 It's look like I need to check it one by one,,
Serral is imo the greatest sc2 player in history. No one has been as consistently crushing as him. He basically literally is the zerg incarnate
Jesus those abducts were painfully disgusting to watch. That Vyper/Hydra/Lurker play was beautifu thoughl. Maybe Ghost/Raven is a good counter?
Why do people not use ghost...
That army control from Serral is beautiful. Barely losing any vipers
"Nerfed" Zerg
The viper really need changes so it cant abduct massive units like mothership, bc, thor. Its just makes no sense
Itd be pretty useless then since its mostly late game unit what good is it...
Even if it couldn't pull massive. It would still have loads of units to abduct, blinding cloud, and parasitic cloud. No reason why it wouldn't be used in the late game.
It insect so kind of make sense
Don't think insect like human cuz insect have stronger strength compare to human when it comes to how many times body weight it can lift
What else WOULD you abduct with Vipers then? Marines? Lol...It has counters...you just don't let your enemy get 10 Vipers...
@@Diree Lol then what is the use of a mothership that so big but easily abduct then got fungal and parasitic then die, or BC which already countered by mass corruptor adding vipers just make them more weaker
I normally agree with Lowko's commentary, but calling this style of play difficult is ridiculous. Even I, at Silver, can build some Hydralisks and use Vipers to yank expensive units into the Hydra ball before running away.
Zerg have too many answers. They have the best spellcasters in the game, they have amazing late-game scaling, and they can stopper weaknesses too quickly. Watching games with Zerg are boring; it's the same units and same strategies over and over again.
It's why Zerg players get cheesed so hard by cannon rushes, proxy Barracks/Gateways, and early all-ins: you have to destroy them before the Tier 2 units and spellcasters start coming in or it's all over. That does not make for interesting games.
Sure, if you ignore the macro in between and the lurkers management and all the harass and scouting before... Yeah, a silver can do it.
If it's so easy... Why are you still silver? Cause it's not when you actually consider everything and not focus on the flashy thing.
Reality check, you would have panic died to the 3 BCs way before reaching the death ball of lurkers/hydra/viper to critical mass and working.
@@Ensatzuken You're right, of course. I would not have known what to do against the battlecruisers except to throw queens at them.
But then again I'm not a professional. And to a professional, this strategy is beyond easy. Which is my point.
@@Josh-99 Against another professional which make pulling off the strat not easy.
On paper any strat is easy "just do x, y and z"... Then you remember the opponent exist and will not let you do it as easily.
Innovation didn't play sc2 in 2011, he played professionnally the game when the kespa pro swtiched from bw to sc2 around 2012/2013 and was considered as the absolute best during the first 6 months of hots.
Then he has ups and downs
you should cast the games that Beasty had with Special a couple of days ago!
The greatest sc2 player is without a doubt florencio
But of course
Those lurker position like in broodwar.... Dam I don't really like it, + viper? No wander Zerg too imba