@@abigailguessis1218 ty! I didn’t mean that I was like trying to top this with my more recent uploads, more just saying how it’s funny that what I consider a very mid video is the one that got so many views compared to what I usually post. I’m not really genuinely embarrassed or bothered it’s more just a joke about how random TH-cam’s algorithm is. Glad you enjoyed!
@@mercurialrose So to help sway the algorithm, what would be one of your best videos that I can go watch? (That are Doctor Who, I'm also sadly suffering from autism.)
"I have autism, and one of the major symptoms of this terrible illness is caring about the Doctor Who franchise." That line is like, for me, it's like the moment Martha told Ten about the professors fob watch. Oh crap, I might not be the only one...
One can care about the Doctor Who franchise _without_ having autism, these two things are not synonymous. Also, there are possibly autistic persons _not_ interested in Doctor Who either...
While I am het-cis, can’t lie he is pretty damn hot. Plus I always thought he had some of the best outfits; by far and away the best dressed since Three. :)
I think the “You don’t see me” line at the end of Deep Breath is incredible. He spends most of the episode either too high on regeneration energy or too busy to react to how Clara’s feelings have changed, but in that moment he makes it clear that he’s hurt by it and it’s really impactful. Maybe shouldn’t have been all we got, but it’s great nonetheless.
I remember I loved Doctor Who when I was really little, and capaldi became doctor when i was 11 years old, i was sooo upset that he was old now! Now, 10 years later, the GUILT that I felt when he said that line, oh my lord, u can really tell that line is written for clara AND the audience to hear
I don't think that is all we got. I think 12's general rudeness to Clara about her appearance ("Well you can't go back [to danny] now, you've already taken off your makeup." Clara: "NO I HAVE NOT") is him dissing her for not seeing him. He doesn't see her, because 1) He's not her boyfriend and 2) she doesn't see him. He seems salty. This treatment also lessens after Mummy on the Orient Express, which is when she finally accepts him. And to be clear, because I was struggling with my wording: I don't mean that he's salty that he isn't her boyfriend. I just mean that he is upholding that boundary while also being pissed that she doesn't see him as the doctor anymore. There are also lots of other moments in their characterization that directly reflect this change in their dynamic, but I think his "faceblindness" is one of the clearest and most literal examples of this.
I think that the show makes the point that 11th was "masking", it is implied since his debute that he acts that way both because he is an old being that after having suffered for a long time due to his long life span he wants to hide his dark side and pain and act nice and playfull to the younglings (as a grampa would do) and because he wants to be accepted and hide that old side of himself. That's the point they make in his ending, that he is finally able to come terms with himself and his next persona, therby letting his mask go and being more honest with the man he is wich would explain why he acts like that in contrast to his previous incarnations
Matt Smith confirmed that his portrayal of the Doctor was not meant to be akin to autism. What, just because the Doctor acts infantile, doesn't understand humans, and then shows his true age every now and then? He's an ALIEN. Saying that alien and childish behaviour are autistic traits is not right either for ppl who are autistic, or for people who aren't
As an autistic person, I was furious with Moffatt’s writing for Clara in Deep Breath. She honestly seemed like the modern companion (other than Jack) most likely to welcome the Doctor in any form. I’ve been a Doctor Who fan since my childhood, and I’m old! I always thought of them as ‘one of us’, & also cried about not living in their reality. And yes, 12 is my favourite, with 9, 7, & 2 being next. (In no particular order) I like my Doctors a little… spiky with a side of ‘working out their trauma in their interactions with others’.
I think you're totally right, poor Clara was forced into being a strawman for the fans who would or who had complained about the new dr being old. Which doesn't suit her character at all, however the scene with the veil was rather well done I think.
I believe it's just because she was unfamiliar with the regeneration trauma. As soon as the Doctor regenerated, the Doctor: Forgot how to drive the TARDIS Somehow travelled to Late Cretaceous and managed to get them swallowed by a T-Rex, Travelled to London whilst in the throat of said T-Rex, Got spat out by the dinosaur, The Doctor confused Clara with a potato (Strax) and also a robot head (Handles), the collapsed There were probably other things on top of that. Clara understands the Doctor had many incarnations (she even met the War incarnation), so to say that she should be totally fine, discounts the fact the Doctor went loopy as the Doctor usually does when they regenerate). Is it any wonder why Clara thought the regeneration went wrong? Clara only really accepts this Doctor once this incarnation really gets solidified (as with his actual initial costume). In terms of New Who, the only other companion to really witness a regeneration (minus fake outs) is Rose, and the Doctor was inconveniently asleep for the majority of the story.
@@MrsMoores I like this idea but I swear I've seen Moffatt say in an interview the scene was written to address a lot of the fandoms reaction to Capaldi's age
@VampireDragon9 Maybe so, but Clara did explicitly say she never had any interest in pretty young men to Vastra. Then she also says in the episode that "I never thought you were" when the Doctor said "Clara, I'm not your boyfriend." So there's a bit of a disjoint there.
Capaldi's run was over by the time I got my autism diagnosis. When I went back to watch his run again, I saw the parallels right away. I am so glad I'm not the only one who saw ND traits in the Doctor.
I've seen fans talking about how 12 had a 'character development' bc by the end of his run he was more open to hugs. I never saw that as a 'development', as an autistic person who's not a fan of hugs either, I simply see that as 12 being himself. I'm not a fan of hugs but it doesn't mean I never hug ever. I like hugging specific ppl in specific situations. I think 12 has just got 'attached' to those character to the point of not being so uncomfortable with their hugs. I think in terms of autism i'm a mix of 12 and 13. Sometimes I say things and ppl see me as rude bc of that, it seems like im not emphatetic but I actually am, but i have more of a bubbly personality and can talk too much, also a lot of social awkwardness lol I think every doctor is sooo neurodivergent but i've never been one to participate with fandoms so I didn't even truly reflect in all details of that. I have always said tho that the Doctor is a very human alien, and I've always felt like a very alien human great video btw!
Since I first started watching Doctor Who - well into my forties already at the time - I've never quite understood the notion that the companions are the ones with whom the audience is expected to empathize, that THEY are the audience surrogate. I have always identified most with the Doctor (and when in a bad mood...the Master). And 12 is by far the one who most feels like someone I can appreciate and with whom I can identify, possibly because I'm somewhat older and have been through lots of catastrophic sh*t brought about at least partly by my own almost certain, but undiagnosed, autism. So as soon as I saw this video pop up in my suggestions by TH-cam, I clicked it as my next. Thank you for this.
I think 12 (including his character arc) just reminds me a lot of myself. I first watched Deep Breath when I was 11 and was a lot like Clara and had a lot of internalized stuff. It's interesting to look back now, 8 years later, and relate the most to 12 in that episode and throughout his era. I really like what you said about how even when episodes are saying to sympathize w the weird, they're still targeted at neurotypicals and not at comforting and speaking to us.
I'm glad little autistic me crying in a closet because the doctor wasn't real and I couldn't travel interdimensionally along his side wasn't just a me experience
I'm not autistic, and I'm a Whoosier Whovian (a Doctor Who fan from Indiana). The title of your post caught my eye; I've always been curious how different people experience things that I value, and I have never heard autism in any conversation about the Doctor before now. Thank you for bringing that new type of conversation to me. Also, thank you for pointing out how difficult it is to find accurate portrayals of the neural divergent (and thank you for expanding my vocabulary, btw). I hope you continue to awaken the general public to the issues here and trigger change!
18:33 "...neurotypical's guide to tolerance, overly sympathising and focusing on clara's feelings with little regard to how the doctor is experiencing, following her while she has a crisis and explaining oppression to her" *bang bop whack nail on the head*
The Doctor always related to me as a kid and I always just thought I was odd and never knew why, and although his autistic traits may have been used as jokes or strangeness for the average person... For me it never felt bad? Like I'd laugh at the scenes in a "that's me" kind of sense and at the end of the day it actually helped me a ton to be who I am. In spite of whether it was used for comedy or any of the likes, these traits were rarely ever seen as problems for the doctor - like had these traits and oddities that made him different to the norm... But he held them with pride and never really cared if people laughed or felt bad for his differences, and this helped me become so confident in my traits and the way I act. I'm very desensitised and uncaring if the average person sees me as weird or doesn't like me and I'm me through and through and the doctor is a massive part of that. To me even when it was used as jokes it only made me feel more comfortable in myself, and maybe it's unhealthy but I often try to interact with people using comedy because if it since I understand my "weirdness" will either be seen as unlikeable or funny. This is just me personally tho, so other people from different situations may be insulted or upset just... I'm not... Especially when i was little my parents struggled to deal with me and it felt more I was a problem with how I was, the doctor made me feel like I wasn't.
This is one of the main reasons I love the Doctor so much and see myself in him as well. It's a very refreshing perspective, and thank you for putting it into words
As an ND person, though probably (maybe?) not autism, I like your interpretation of both the show/the Doctor and Deep Breath. I always felt that episodes like that one are meant more to help the audience come to terms with the fact that there is a different person, using at least a somewhat different personality, playing a beloved character. No one really wants a Bewitched switch where the change is completely ignored as if nothing happened. It's something I love about Doctor Who, that different people can play the same character in their own way. However, upon hearing your take, I completely get the crossover to someone unmasking. I think I've always been a bit bad at both recognizing masking and actually doing it myself (possibly because I've only recently been diagnosed at nearly 40), so I like this perspective.
Capaldi really was one of the very best doctors. Some of the writing was less than perfect, but he always shone. I also found Clara an absolute delight, and I am aware that this may not be a popular opinion.
They wanted to make someone who acted just off enough to be alien. The best way I can describe my autism is... alien. Match made in heaven if you ask me.
This video has completely changed my perspective on Deep Breath, and I was thinking what a contrast it is to one of Eleven's first scenes - fish fingers and custard. In my mind, that's a scene that celebrates the Doctor's weirdness in its entirety. As a tiny autistic child I LOVED that scene. The Doctor is disregarding all social norms and politeness and eventually finds that the food he likes is an "abnormal" combination that would get him weird looks in many situations - but in the scene, it's celebrated. It's fun! His willingness to disregard social norms leads to both him and Amelia discovering a fun new thing! This is exactly how the Doctor should be! little me was thinking. Why would they ever make him anything but weird? The Doctor is a fun character who provides the best kind of escapism - showing the world that weirdness is something to be celebrated, because it leads to new fun experiences. As a child I latched onto the Doctor because I didn't know/care about the times his quirkiness was played for laughs - what I saw was a character with no desire to fit in or be normal, whose weirdness was the very thing that made them cool. Everyone loves the Doctor, BECAUSE he's a space alien with no understanding of social rules or the status quo, because what's outside of "normal" is so much better than what's inside it. God, no wonder I latched onto this show so hard.
wait..we arnt supposed to? but...but... litrally this made my mind short circet cos i relate to hevily to the doctor its unreal. how can people not relate to him. litrally does not compute.
I called this too... Entire time watching with my also Autistic GF - I was like "he's totally Autistic". Matt Smith as Eleven is totally ADHD. I relate to both Doctor incarnations!
I have always interpreted 12 as rejecting a lot of the closeness with others they had developed in previous seasons that kept causing them pain (Rose, Donna, Amy, but also others) and retreating to a place of intentionally not engaging emotionally with others. They somewhat intentionally (subconsciously) regenerated into someone who doesn't use so much of their energy being affected by the feelings of others. But also I felt this incarnation was bringing to the fore a lot of Classic Who traits that had always been there, such as their casual arrogance and self-centredness and interest in science/knowledge over people (e.g. 1 and 3). 12 seems WEIRD to many people in contrast to how the previous New Who Doctors had been caring, passionate, huggers (and kissers) etc. but it never felt weird to me. I've always loved bringing back aspects of the Doctor I'd been missing. But I have to say that after watching your video (which I loved), I think your interpretation of them being unintentionally ND-coded also makes total sense. It doesn't even necessarily clash with my interpretation. ...After all, the Doctor is inherently NOT neuro typical since they don't even have a human brain. They were always ND in some sense. And theoretically, if they can change their face for each regeneration, why can't they sometimes end up with a brain that works more like a human ASD brain, right? Interesting to ponder, I think.
Just finished watching this video about a Neruodivergent that bought every kind of gender at the store rant for 22 minutes and 57 seconds about why my favorite rendition of a British Deity is Autistic, and safe to say I finally figured out why Peter Capaldi is my favorite Doctor. Thank you Mercurial Rose, have my subscribed and respect.
"A neurotypical's guide to tolerance"... Yes! That is literally what "Deep Breath" is. And hurrah for that! There are still far too bloody few of those, given how bloody ubiquitous *utterly clueless* neurotypicals are!!! To the best of my knowledge, Moffat has never either self-identified as autistic, nor been diagnosed as such. I don't think Moffat was "pretending to be on my/our/your side". I think he was doing his best, as a neurotypical who was starting to understand the whole concept of "neurodiversity" (which, N.B., is not just about the "autistic"-"neurotypical" axis (I know you probably know this already, but other readers might not), but also a whole bunch of other axes (some of which I'm sure we haven't discovered yet!) )... to tell less enlightened/experienced members of the audience (especially kids!): "Hey! Other people's strangeness might be startling, and uncomfortable, and annoying... but it's not *WRONG*. It's just *DIFFERENT*. Whatever your first instincts are, well, try to shush them for a minute, and try to see the situation from the '*strange*' person's point of view." This is a life-lesson that has universal applicability, far beyond our own autism/neurotypical struggles. It applies to meeting refugees from a war-torn country (i.e. people who not only come from a different culture and speak a different language, but may also be suffering from PTSD), and welcoming them into your home town... let alone your *actual* home! (P.S. I would kill - or at list, risk a parking ticket - to see/hear a decent rendering of Jenny's first meeting with Vastra!). Signed, a 57-year-old British white dude who "failed" his NHS autism assessment by not realising you need to leave your mask(s) at the door. =:o/ (God(s) help any foreign women-of-colour who ever go for assessment, under the current assessment regime! ). (P.S.: Also been a confirmed Doctor Who fan since January 1975.)
Of course! As I said, there’s absolutely a place for stories like this one I just find it disheartening how rare stories that cater to an autistic audience are.
No. It's just dumb. Listen, I am neurodivergent in a way far more debilitating than autism - BPD. One thing that helps about it, though: overpowered empathy. And I can tell you that acting like neurotypical people need a guide in order to be tolerant is both stupid, insulting, anti-empathy, and completely, utterly ineffective at making the non-tolerant ones tolerant.
I remember that when i first began the process of figuring out that im autistic, i told my dad that sheldon from big bang theory is autistic, and he got really mad. He wouldn’t/couldn't explain why, but it's exactly like you said: he didn't want to be seen as someone who makes fun of an autistic person. I never realized what that was before, but hearing you explain that made something click! Thanks random content creator : )
I am on the neurodiversity aspecter, but not as an authistic, but I always related so much with the doctor in certain points, on how he doesn't know how to properly deal with feelings most of the time and sometimes is rude without intentions... It is a really good video!!! Thanks for this (btw, I'm watching u from Brazil and omg, how do I want this video in portuguese)
My older brother is autistic, and while I am not (that I know of) we both love watching doctor who and I can DEFINITELY see some of my brother in 12’s character.
Thank you for your thoughts! I’d like to add that Clara is not het, she talks about crushing on and kissing women. And unrelated, I read their time together as 11/Clara as very flirty and at the beginning of 12s tenure he put a stop to it with his “im not your boyfriend” and “I never said it was your mistake”, but by the end of their run having come to something much, much deeper than flirting. I am a whouffaldi shipper at heart and I wish everyone else saw how romantic their relationship was
UGH thanks for reminding me of that I’d actually forgotten she alludes to being queer a few times! sorry for the accidental bi erasure Clara fans, I’ll try and not make the same mistake again!
9th resonated with me as autistic, but maybe that's because I'm a level 2 female who's good at masking. I saw so many traits just watching the first episode, but then again, maybe I did not.
It might also be worth mentioning that Moffat wrote Sherlock, another show where the main character is seemingly autistic, despite Cumberbatch's own opinions.
Sherlock was called in autistic in the script, unlike in Doctor Who. I think that was unnecessary and can be hurtful, but it is important for analysis of the shows. Judge based on what people say, not what you think they think.
@@susannahstiles2403 are you saying in the script, which I've not read, refers to Sherlock as being autistic? In the A Study in Pink, Sherlock refers to himself as a "High Functioning Sociopath."
As a person on the spectrum, I feel that Peter Capaldi's incarnation exhibits several Aspergic traits, as does Colin Baker's Sixth Doctor before him. At the latter's convention tables I have seen people approach him and tell him they are autistic and identified with his Doctor in their teens (as did I). One lady even said she related to the Doctor's self-loathing in the aftermath of attacking Peri in The Twin Dilemma---the bit where he recoils at the console and whimpers---she used to have meltdowns like that herself. Colin was both touched and fascinated to hear it.
vaguely unrelated but i latched on to absent friends (doom coalition 3.1) so hard when i first listened to it cause the doctor is so autistic in it. there’s this bit near the end when helen is distraught over the very recent death of her brother she accidentally estranged, and to cheer her up the doctor suggests going to the place she spoke about going to at the start without knowing that the place was her brother’s house and that her brother is dead. helen says no and walks off without actually explaining to him why and he just kinda goes oh. humans. ill never understand them and i went oh god he’s literally me
Interesting take that actually makes a lot of sense. As a father of a 17 year old autistic daughter I find that many of the Doctor's traits and mannerisms do resemble that of an autistic individual. 12 is my favorite Doctor, but now taking into account this autistic angle of him just makes him even more enduring to me. We all can be put in the place of Clara not being able to understand what the Doctor is doing or even to comprehend what kind of person that that they are. To outsiders, people who have Autism are alien in many ways, which is a good allegory to Doctor Who since the Doctor literally is an alien who is so different from us human beings reagardless of how similar they look like us. There are times I don't understand my daughter though I understand her patterns and habitual actions after having observed her for 17 years, I say this because I cannot go into her mind and try to see what she sees, how to view the world as she must see it. She can become overstimulated, and often times wish to remain alone doing her own thing not being observed by anyone, so this interpretation of 12 really hits home to me, not only because it's a charachter I have already grown to love, but because now I can associate him to someone close to me and rewatch his episodes in a totally different way and have an even greater appreciation for what he is doing looking at it from a viewpoint of an individual who shares many of the same characteristics as my own daughter. Well done Mercurial!
this video is hands down one the greatest experience from start to finish, the thumbnail alone was gold but your comedic timing is so on point and hilarious. anyway, each the doctor is autistic as fuck and i feel that, i'm autistic as fuck too, like i adore clara in her best but man i was so frustrated with her in this episode in ways that i couldn't explain until i watched this video and Yeah, you totally got what i couldn't. and i've been in that situation myself too, where i unmasked around people i trust and they start to act weird, ive lost friends to it and seeing it spelled out in this video i feel it so hard. so thanks from one autist to another. also yeah peter capaldi is sexy and that's coming from a lesbian, especially as his hair just gets wilder and yeah lmao.
Right, so first of all, as an autistic, trans Whovian, I found the intro to be the most relatable thing I've probably ever heard lol. I would have totally loved to be your friend as a kid :) Other than that, I agree with almost everything you've said - Your autistic reading of 12 is actually fairly similar to mine, and you've put so much of it into words better than I ever could.. So thank you for that! In my personal head-cannon, I do feel like every incarnation of the Doctor has some ND traits, just that the presentation is different (they all display different traits in varying levels of intensity, have different senses that are hypo/hyper etc). This makes a lot of sense to me, since the whole point of regeneration as we understand it, is that they get a whole new body, including a new brain - while still retaining their core personality and memory. So, still an ND brain every time, just on different spots "along the spectrum", if that makes sense. 10 for example, has a bunch of ADHD traits, while also being overtly characterised as "rude" (failing to notice social cues and regulate his tone/bluntness) , while 11 is more "pure" ADHD imo. 12 is probably the one who displays the most common (typically male) autistic traits, while not necessarily being as hyper as the others, which to me makes it seem like he might for a change be autistic and not ADHD. And, as an afab person, I also feel like 13 is actually a fairly good representation of some autistic traits that are considered "typically" female (on top of some more ADHD traits) - And yeah, most of it is due to the poor writing... But it still works. She's basically always masking, has a very herd time recognizing and/or verbalising her own emotions (even when she does seemingly want to open up), literally described as "socially awkward" (fails to notice social cues fairly often), has issues with eye-contact etc. I've noticed you didn't mention 13, but I would love to hear your thoughts about her autistic reading, if you have some. Anyway, what's beautiful to me about the Doctor as a character, is that they do all share clear special interests in technology, time and the universe - While most incarnations (especially the more ADHD ones) tend to also have side-interests which they hyperfixate about for a while before abandoning and moving on lol. They also all share a deep sense of empathy and social justice. I love that these are still ND traits which are carried across regenerations, since to me they're the core of what makes the Doctor who they are, and the main reason I find them so relatable. I actually think that it's really cool that each incarnation has slightly different traits/personality, and therefore faces different struggles and is perceived slightly differently by others. Some people who don't read the Doctor as ND might claim that these differences in how they're treated have more to do with their visual appearance changing - But I've always felt like that's a very superficial way to view it. Sure, as a trans person I'm in no way naive enough to think that appearances and/or gender have no effect on how someone is viewed and treated - But I would like to believe that at least the type of people which the Doctor would usually invite to become their companion, are genuine and openminded enough to look beyond those things (heck, especially in new who, most of them are actually queer themselves). All that being said, In the case of Deep Breath, I think that you're totally right about the episode not showing enough of 12's own journey, but I guess that's because it's told from Clara's POV. I feel like you've raised a lot of valid points, but also feel like I have to defend Clara a little bit here. As she explains in the episode, she doesn't actually have an issue with 12 appearing older - And I honestly, believe her. We know she's a bi woman, we know she tends to be a bit vain and self-centered, but there's no reason to believe that she can't find 12 attractive imo.. She's seen all the Doctor's past faces, she's known for a while that this was a possibility and I genuinely don't think that his face/body changing was ever a problem for her. I think what she did have issues with, is the way in which he's treated her, leading up to and following his regeneration. I 100% agree with you that a lot of said behaviour, could be attributed to autistic traits, and I get that it's the whole point you were trying to make - But I also think people seem to not think about everything that led up to Deep Breath, from Clara's POV. The Doctor showed up naked to her family thanksgiving dinner, before sending her back to Earth against her will, leaving her to deal with the fallout alone, while also having to worry about her best friend and being unable to help him. Then, once she finally got back, only to find him literally aging and getting ready to die - not only did he never apologize, he actually did it to her again (!), without explaining and again without her permission. In fact, the second time he did it right after explicitly promising not to. She then finally got back to him once again, landing right in the middle of a battlefield where the Doctor was literally dying, only for him to immediately regenerate - At which point they proceeded to crash through time and space, because he forgot how to fly the TARDIS and apparently couldn't remember basic details like Clara's name. He then proceeded to pass out, leaving her alone with people who to her were strangers (and non-human at that), in the 19th century. Yeah, from the Doctor's POV it's been centuries, and for the viewers we had months between these two episodes - But for Clara? This all canonically happened on the same day! I think it's totally understandable that she'd be pissed, offended and honestly worried about him, since he never actually explained to her about post-regeneration sickness/confusion. If you think about all this as Clara's starting point in the episode, I feel like it's much easier to understand why she reacted like she did by the end of it - Especially after she felt like the Doctor left her again in that restaurant, this time while she was actively in danger. Of course he hadn't, and it was supposedly a plan of his to buy time, but when you consider how he'd already "left" her in a sense so many times earlier that same day, I think her reaction is honestly pretty justified. You can totally see it when in the end of the episode, she's afraid he's completely left her stranded there and took off in the TARDIS (which to be fair, he kinda did, even if he came right back). I think anyone would be worried in this situation, especially after everything she's been through with him over the past 48 hours, and I can totally see why it might make her feel like she doesn't know him/can't trust him anymore. Unlike Vestra or the Doctor himself (as well as many viewers) like to think, I never believed Clara actually had an issue with 12's appearance, but their personalities did clash more than her and 11 ever did. That being said, by the end of their run, I feel like there's no doubt still some unspoken romantic feelings on both sides tbh. Like, yeah, he told her "I'm not your boyfriend" (cause he was scared and had a hard time seeing her perspective of things), and she accepted it and started dating someone else... But we all know that she never stopped caring about him, often more than she did about her bf. On the Doctor's side of things, he literally spent 4.7 billion years in a torture chamber, then gave up so many of his own principles to save her. I don't think they had a healthy relationship by any means lol.. But I think it's undeniable that it was always still more than a simple friendship, and I feel like even cannon supports this reading, with "we should say what we feel" and zoom-out of the capital while they (probably) confess their love lol. Yeah, sorry about rambling so much - Can you tell Doctor Who is a major special interest for me and that I've thought about this A LOT? lol This was a very interesting video essay, and thank you for sharing it
AWESOME COMMENT. YES. I love comments like this never apologise. Looking back at this video I was definitely too hard on Clara and you’re not the first person to point it out, I’ll be nicer to her if I ever make a doctor who video featuring her again lol. I’m very defensive of 12 but the majority of Clara haters are just misogynistic with no valid points so I definitely don’t want to give the impression that I’m part of that crowd, even if I personally find aspects of her character annoying.
I like getting comments like this on older videos because I often don’t have a good sense of the flaws my videos have when I first post them, so this is an opportunity to reevaluate the points I made in the heat of the moment with less bias. So in short yeah awesome comment big fan of this comment
@@mercurialrose Thank you :) And nah, I don't think you were necessarily too harsh on Clara. You're totally entitled to have your opinion! I did understand that it came from a place of protectiveness over 12, and I honestly felt very much the same when watching this episode for the first time. I did try to focus on expanding about Clara's perspective of things - Just to maybe offer some counterbalance to the (again, very valid and well-put) points you've made in the video.. But I never thought you were one of those misogynistic haters, so don't worry about that! Also, it's super valid for your opinions to change and shift over time, this video still has a lot of merit! It made some ND whovians like me feel seen, and created some very interesting discussions here in the comments. And if you ever feel the need to rehash any of these points, you can always make another video on this topic ;) (Totally not saying this because I'm biased and want to hear your ND reads on other Doctors/an expansion on 12's ND read haha)
@@micron000 I’m currently working on a long term project that will cover every single doctor to a certain degree, so while it won’t be for a while I for sure will talk about all of them at some point, and it’s hard to do without bringing up how neurodivergent they all are so you can look forward to that for sure lmao
I'd never noticed how much more consistent twelve's characterisation vis a vis being social around humans was. Really good point, and good video overall.
THANK YOU FOR THIS, GOD, for years (as i grew to love 12 more and more) something about this season and this episode in particuler really bugged me and i could never really put in into words that explained it well to myself and others!! thank you for this!! i love 12 now, as i come into my own autistic dignosis that i recived recently. gosh, this interpatation of completely losing his preevios ability to mask, ie controlling his social preception that 11 almost prefected, and thus giving birth to 12, is such a good analysis and i adored watching this !! now, for years my autistic ass related the most to 11, as he managed to be a combo of masking and non masking that i relate to in real life a lot. because to me it feels like 11 was the one who sort of started to accept his strangeness and how sometimes he does not have to make it palatable to others, while still masking so heavily on purcpe of "being liked at all" which is an unhealthy show of it that i am happy the univerce had to littirly change about him as he became 12 this has blown my mind and i adore it dearly, if you ever feel like doing this kind of analysis of the rest of 12s era, i would be delighted. but his video was a delight either way!! thank you for this i cannot explain how my mind was blown
i (autistic) showed my partner (autistic) deep breath and cried at the bit at the end where 12 briefly gets to tell clara to stop treating him like shit. very on the autistic 12 train and really love this video!! would be interested to hear any thoughts you might have about 13 being autistic - i find it almost entirely frustrating whereas 12 being autistic is a source of joy for me
I’m too much of a chibnall hater to make a video about 13 lol but I do think that her autistic traits were treated a lot more maliciously than 12’s were
lmao fair enough probably not worth the time / effort! it does feel more malicious especially when it's used as an excuse for her to take no action or to just be generally unpleasant to her companions without much to remind you that she's not horrible to them too? shouldn't be a huge surprise given the attempt at dyspraxia rep but hey ho
13 is a jerk, not autistic. Why did 12 become 13? 13 is not relatable at all. I'd be interested in a discussion on how traumatic experiences influence autistic behavior and character development.
Thank you! My channel definitely doesn’t have enough doctor who content I feel so I’ll definitely be talking more shit about this silly autism show in future lol
I watched this episode before realising i might be autistic/ getting diagnosed, and i always interpreted this episode as a way of dealing with clara's greatest flaw: her narrowmindedness. But this makes a lot more sense.
"My" Doctor was initially number 4 (Tom Baker) version, hence I've always seen the Doctor as Different in many fundamental ways; I did enjoy number 12's (Peter Capaldi) early 'eccentricities' despite the usual ableism throughout; representation matters to me, however my own internal ableism is such that I need to see these things for myself; (a Late diagnosed AuDHDer her!!!)
The speed and the way you talk is exactly how I talk to myself in my head it's so satisfying. And 12 is my favourite too, had some of the best episodes I think about constantly (aka heaven sent). Now that you've mentioned it, I realise why Clara felt more like the main character instead of the doctor in some scenes, is that we always see her reactions to things that he did, but rarely we see his reactions to things Clara did. Like the one where she throws his Tardis keys into lava, and he's just like "I forgive you bc I still care about you" but that's like it??? I would've loved to see his opinion of her change at least a little, like a scene where he rehides the Tardis keys afterward or something, instead of what felt like 'you're a human so ofc you're dumb i forgive you'. Also, having your own subtitles in videos would be awesome for my ~auditory processing~ :D
Putting this here purly for my own joy and for the sake of conversation I guess and it doesn't actually have much to do with the main point of the video anyways the doctor and his touch adversion means so much to me because of the way if sort of evolves with clara and their relationship Course I read him as he's just like me fr, so context, beyond general touch adversion, a lot of my dislike of it is the fact that touch is just another form of communication and its like I never learned that language, its stressful not to know what you're communicating, etc yknow. The first time he seeks out touch is when he's afraid in Sleep No More (if I remeber correctly) and he asks clara to hold his hand. HE ASKS. and tells her its because he's scared. He wanted clara's comfort in that moment and so he cut out the hand-holding-nonverbal-touch-mystery-communication which makes so much sense to me. Also people dont usually ask him if its okay to touch him, and he does because well he thinks people should and he wishes people would. And he clearly verbally communicates it. Btw when he says he doesn't like hugs because its just a way to hide your face is sooooooooo proving my point rn like he doesn't like it. because its using a different form of communication (than expression or words which he understands better than whatever the fuck touch is). Actually I take it back I got really tired half way through writing just that but case in point while I think part of 12s touch adversion going away later in s9 is in part writing for the sake of a dramatic meaningful scenes to the audience while forgetting character traits (clara touching his face like three times (ew)) I also think it can be evidence of their little character growth. Hear me out cause I feel like I sounds crazy when I talk about this but I'm currently loosing my mind over the concept of people and characters showing their love for each other by (in small acts, at least) acomidating for each other. Acomidating, for lack of a better word, I know there's a better one out there somewhere. Anyways, for a 12 example he does things to show river that he loves her in ways that she would see as romantic but he wouldn't normally (like the entire final scene from The Husbands of River Song, dressing up and complimenting her looks etc) because River wasn't feeling loved. So he shows her he loves her by mimicking her. Maybe it was intended to be a rather questionable flaw or maybe it was just disregard but I always read it as a choice between the two of them. The doctor being okay with clara touching him because he trusts her and loves her and, between them, understands the language(even by the end the amount clara touches him is still minimal). THIS BEING SAID like you mentioned there is a huge lack of sympathy for the doctors perspective in the writing, and while the two examples I gave were the doctors act-of-love-accomidations there may be examples of the reverse that I cant remember right now that are actually framed in a way that isn't like the doctors autistic or otherwise weird traits are a burden or something the other characters have to work around. Instead rather also being forms of this love language. Anyways that was approximately three points in one- Ive just been thinking about the doctor and clara and the doctors touch adversion a lot so you must forgive me. I like the actual point of ur video btw very good
Thank you for explaining why the NT companions, as surrogates for "the audience", most often annoy and bewilder me! Of course I'm going to empathise much more strongly with the ND main character. And I love Capaldi's characterisation - it made me feel as though the classic era Doctors were finally showing up in the reboot era.
I really enjoyed your commentary! Peter Capaldi is awesome, LOVE 12 - hate most of the stories tho. I think Moffatt's really weak on plot and far too ready to throw the companions in the fire for the sake of tragic drama. I think he created a great doctor here, but didn't know what to do with him, but - again - that's Moffatt for you. Totally agree with your assessment about coming at it all from the neurodivergence-as-comedy POV (autism makes neurotypicals uncomfortable, as a rule), but on the other hand at least they allow him to *have* neurodivergent traits without seeming to expect him to change who he is. On some level, at least, his companions (in most incarnations) have to adapt to *him*. It's a start.
Always wondered why I found Deep Breath to be so unbearably frustrating to watch. Little autistic me was SO confused as to why Clara couldn't wrap her head around him just now showing his less desirable eccentricities. And being so weirded out by him that she forgot it's the same person??? I could probably enjoy the ep more now if I watched it from a different lens but yeah you definitely hit the nail on the head. Banger video
this is such an interesting video essay, thank you for making it! as someone whose simultaneous favourite and least favourite seasons came from the capaldi era, i definitely relate to the ideas here of loving and also hating competing aspects of the same episode. i personally love how shittily clara reacts in this episode, because it (kind of inadverdently? or scuffed-ly, maybe is more accurate) also serves as commentary on her own masking/performative behaviour. it shows clara and 11 both knew on some level they were bullshitting each other (eleven never says anything nearly as incisive or true about clara as twelve - very earnestly and sweetly! - saying he doesn't want her to stop being a needy egotistical game player, but he hasn't like, seen anything New about clara in between then and regenerating. he's just willing to be honest now) playing paticularly perfect versions of themselves, and its genuinely fascinating that clara gets like. offended? when 12 first takes that mask down. she doesn't want authenticity, she wants her storybook fairytale ('that wasn't a leaf, that was page one') and the masked version of the doctor is a better story. but then, like you said, the behaviours that the twelfth doctor reveals/unmasks abt are on a very different axis to clara's. when he's the butt of the joke it's almost always neurodivergent and autistic traits the audience is cued to laugh at, compared to clara where the joke is that she's an asshole (/beloved). of course, that's more of a season long arc, since at this point the average watcher thinks clara's a mary sue, but does that mean the doctor has to be treated as terrifying/a freak by every lay person until 11's phone call? again: simultaneously great and terrible. maybe it would've undercut the significance of the doctor unmasking, but i think if instead of the homeless guy being terrified of him, he reacted much more neutrally or positively towards him ('hey, this guy seems upset, i wonder if i can help') that in itself would've been a really important critique of clara's attitude. she got so worried about the optics of the regeneration she skipped over being concerned about how distressed the doctor was, and so the episode kind of does too (w the exception of the dinosaur's death, where the audience is encouraged to sit with how sad + lonely that is). okay ive kind of lost the point of this. insert that one tumblr post here where if art is terrible it slides frictionlessly out of ur life and if its a specific type of bad with potential you will never stop thinking about it ever.
The 11th Doctor has always been ADHD to me. Constantly seeking validation and stimulation from his environment, literally can't sit still, "flapping his hands about"... it was comforting to me as a neurodivergent kid to see a competent adult character who wasn't afraid to enjoy silly things sometimes :)
As an autistic person who only got into Doctor Who in 2022 in preparation for the 60th anniversary specials while everyone else in my family is a Whovian, reading any version of the Doctor, especially the revival series Doctors, as neurodivergent makes a lot of sense.
I cannot relate enough to the point about autistic coding in comedy. There's been so many times where I watched a movie/series with other people, and the whole room would burst with laughter at scenes with behavior which I found perfectly normal and acceptable, if not outright relatable. The other day I watched Yorgos Lanthimos' "The Lobster" which featured very heavy autism coding for all its characters (overt bluntness, inability to understand social structures, socializing through infodumping and SO much more). I enjoyed it a lot, and got curious how other people experienced it, so I googled up some reviews. To my shock, many people found it a hilarious comedy. One review went so far as to say "the dialogue was a brilliant satirization of today's social landscape". And I'm like "No it wasnt?!" During the viewing I have multiple times made the "DiCaprio pointing at TV meme", amazed at how accurately some of my personal quirks/behaviors were represented in the characters. And then I find out that apparently all of that is just a joke. And to be clear I absolutely believe that The Lobster can be viewed as absurdist comedy, but so many people were pointing out how they found the behavior (which I so strongly related to) as explicitly comedic. And don't get me started on the amount of times a neurotypical person I know reacted to me stimming as "doing a funny dance"
In media, there's really only 2 kinds of autistic characters that neurotypical audiences recognize: the savant and the nonverbal. And the savant gets this weird fascination that essentially allows the audience to erase the rest of what being autistic is, UNLESS it is a struggle for neurotypical characters around them. Then it is how hard it is for those characters to cope with an autistic person, but hey, it's "worth it" because they are a genius. This framing has erased all neurodivergence in between. I think it also takes away from the fact that all characters, no matter who they are, can be funny, but what you play for laughs is different. The 10th doctor had some neurodivergent qualities to him that could not be chalked up to "quirkiness" or "being weird," they were specifically from his personality change from his regeneration. 12's regeneration, as far as what he looked like, was a reminder to himself instead of a mask for everyone else. It was more important, and he was treated poorly for it, just like when neurodivergent people unmask for themselves, they get treated poorly. Then his interactions with people is a whole other conversation that could fill a book. I think a lot of the hate that some of the episodes get was confusing to me because I accepted the doctor how he was presented to me. "Oh the doctor would never" doesn't mean the same when you are judging it off of the actions of 9, 10, or 11 when looking at 12. I think they actually would, but the reasons would have been communicated differently. But 12 doesn't communicate with Clara the same way 11 did. Even if the writers didn't intentionally write 12 as autistic, that is how he ended up, essentially. If the behaviors and ways of communication you write in for the doctor are often identical to neurodivergent people, and they can't all be explained by "oh, he's just an alien," that character is neurodivergent. You can't write a character who keeps falling in love with people of the same gender and wonder why the audience keeps assuming they are gay or bisexual, no matter how many times your character says they are straight. That's literally how you are writing your character.
@@mercurialrose no, your video was wonderful! I have only just started my doctor who journey lol. But I do have a lot of trouble with change, which is what kept me from watching any of it, seeing as the doctor changes all the time lol. But I watched Good Omens, and that made me decide that the one doctor I would pick would be 10. Then I saw a clip of 12, and I thought... eh, with the Scottish accent, I could kinda see myself tricking me into watching him as well without the change feeling as jarring... (there were other factors too, like based on the anniversary I watched that had 10 and 11, 11 seems to simplify the nerdy science stuff a lot, 10 rambled through it all, and 12 loves it and I saw bits of him explaining abstract concepts, stuff like that). Then I saw your video pop up. I just watched it now, because I wanted to save it until after. But seeing it was that final push to try out 12. I probably never would have experienced the 12th doctor if you hadn't made this video. So thank you 💙
@@mercurialrose and I also just wanted to mention that, while my comment may be relatively coherent, I'm in my 30s and I am just figuring out that I'm autistic. I was given an adult adhd diagnosis a while ago, but as a woman with my.... super complicated past, no one ever thought to diagnose me, I had to learn to mask way more than the average autistic person (I grew up in a dangerous situation, and everywhere I was at required lying about something on top of masking). I also can't safely get a diagnosis, because my parents have gotten around HIPAA for other things. It isn't the only medical thing I've had to ignore. So being able to come to videos like this where there is a dialogue from that perspective is a ton of help for me. At the very least I know I'm not going crazy, lol. I can see a lot of what is happening from the outside, how different characters or other people are recieved, and the amount I have had to mask to make sure most people just forget I exist. But this video, and others like it, feel so safe, and let me enjoy characters/shows with people who see it through the same lens. So I truly do appreciate it. 💙
@@darkermatter125.35 this makes me so unbelievably happy, I don’t have exactly the same experience as I was diagnosed quite young (around 8) but I definitely had to mask a lot due to bullying or even just people who knew I was autistic that didn’t realise when my behaviours were autism symptoms and not just a “bad attitude”. I’m glad you have the language to talk about your experiences now it helps a great deal! I was feeling pretty uninspired today because I’m having technical difficulties with my current video WIP but reading this definitely makes me want to make more videos about being neurodivergent, it’s wonderful that my perspectives and ideas are able to help people feel more seen and I hope that talking about these things will become more destigmatised soon!
When I hear that loving Doctor Who is a symptom of Autism, I think: maybe I am Autistic after all. But then I remember that I got tested Years ago and the test basically said "No, you are just weird, live with it."
In Deep Breath there is that wonderful scene where there is ambiguity as to whether the T-Rex or the Doctor is expressing bewilderment and the desire to be seen which underlined in the phone call scene. This gets a beautiful pay off in Twice Upon A Time where glass Bill is also pleading to be seen for what she is but the Doctor is in denial.
As a person that suffers from autism, I wondered why i fell in love with the 11th and 12th doctors. Since my first episode of doctor who was silence in the library; And i fell in love with it sense.
My favourite types of media is when the writer is so obviously undiagnosed so practically every character is autistic and well written without those two stereotypical categories you listed
In defence of Clara in Deep Breath: I believe it's just because she was unfamiliar with the regeneration trauma. As soon as the Doctor regenerated, the Doctor: Forgot how to drive the TARDIS Somehow travelled to Late Cretaceous and managed to get them swallowed by a T-Rex, Travelled to London whilst in the throat of said T-Rex, Got spat out by the dinosaur, The Doctor confused Clara with a potato (Strax) and also a robot head (Handles), the collapsed There were probably other things on top of that. Is it any wonder why Clara thought the regeneration went wrong? I agree that Clara needed a mediator but not because she is ableist but because she just needed to come to terms with the Doctor. Clara only really accepts this Doctor once this incarnation really gets solidified (as with his actual initial costume). In terms of New Who, the only other companion to really witness a regeneration (minus fake outs) is Rose, and the Doctor was inconveniently asleep for the majority of the story.
Yeah valid, I’m talking more about what the doctors regeneration could represent to the audience in an allegorical sense rather than analysing the literal events of the episode, that’s why I said there’s endless possible interpretations :)
@mercurialrosevalentine I understand where you're coming from. I kind of watched it as a representation of grief (as she saw the Eleventh Doctor age over time (and actually give up before the Timelords intervention)). And they do end up having one of the most strongest relationships in the show (in spite of being matched by Missy).
I am autistic and i didnt think of this episode like that, but i know next time i do watch it i will look at it from this perspective as well [i really did take it literally as to clara being no longer attracted to the doctor for looking older.... which i also agree is stupid cause 12 is SOOOO much better than 11 in every way] i will say... there is a short where 12 talks about having adhd which i genuinely love!! I love every version of the doctor having different variations of autism, which is really fun! I also love how even by galifrayan standards, the doctor really is fucking weird... which kinda helps against the whole alien=autistic thing... thank you for this video!
I saw the 12th Doctor as someone who is autistic and I myself have Autism! As he grew, I developed throughout that time!!! Is saw 11 with ADHD and I likewise have ADHD! *I didn't have it when Smith aired, I was a Kid* I feel like Steven Moffat time *Despite I am Nostalgia* Understood these Disorders and, as an adult can see my Doctors as myself more insight!!! Also, That scene in Deep Breath did so much for 13 YO me who was still dealing with Post Smith!!!
As an autistic person I based all my mannerisms on the 11 and 12th docs. I don’t like physical contact or get social cues like 12 but I talk with my hands like 11
I am in my final year of high school, and I am doing autism representation for my Society and culture PIP. Every single person I have told this to has told me “watch doctor who”. So yes. I *will* be using this video as a source. Thank you.
For me, I have severe ADHD so often resonated with the 11th doctor because I saw a lot of myself in that character but to your point, I also would like to add that I know that a lot of the symptoms between autism and ADHD can overlap each other but these symptoms might be triggered from different circumstances and also there is some people who have both autism and ADHD
I'm not autistic but I found this interesting :) thank you for the video. I hope you're channel will grow and you will be able to invest in a better quality microphone soon 😉
trans autistic doctor who fan here! i really love your take on deep breath, first time watching the episode i thought the sentiments clara expressed felt really weird and i for a hot minute associated it with transphobic sentiment in my head lmao but your take on it really makes it click as to why i felt so little sympathy for the clara plot, while still really truly enjoying all of twelve's screentime in the episode. i don't care about all that clara girl you saw all the doctors' incarnations before, get over it
Guys I have videos better than this one I swear
No need to make up for this one, it’s really great
@@abigailguessis1218 ty! I didn’t mean that I was like trying to top this with my more recent uploads, more just saying how it’s funny that what I consider a very mid video is the one that got so many views compared to what I usually post. I’m not really genuinely embarrassed or bothered it’s more just a joke about how random TH-cam’s algorithm is. Glad you enjoyed!
@@mercurialrose yeah, you know I stopped telling people I have autism, they just treat me like an idiot, like I don’t understand what’s going on
@@mercurialrose So to help sway the algorithm, what would be one of your best videos that I can go watch? (That are Doctor Who, I'm also sadly suffering from autism.)
@@Adam-fz6rj probably my most recent one! Tysm
"I have autism, and one of the major symptoms of this terrible illness is caring about the Doctor Who franchise." That line is like, for me, it's like the moment Martha told Ten about the professors fob watch. Oh crap, I might not be the only one...
same...
One can care about the Doctor Who franchise _without_ having autism, these two things are not synonymous.
Also, there are possibly autistic persons _not_ interested in Doctor Who either...
@@deavacui2825idk man I like the blanket statement without nuance for the sake of comedy better
I think Ops joke is because autistic people appear to be over represented in the dw fandom. @@deavacui2825
as an autistic scottish person its hard to toe the line between where the rude bluntness comes from....his autism or his scottishness lmao
The two genders: autistic and Scottish
You call it "autism", I call it "Chadpaldi Sigma Grindset". We are not the same.
Renouncing my diagnosis from now on I’ve just got that chadpaldi sigma grindset
Are you sure it's not "scottishness"?
Finally someone brave enough to admit that Peter Capaldi is the hottest doctor
I thought I was the only one who thought he was hot.
@@megangoddess79 no he's definitely hot
While I am het-cis, can’t lie he is pretty damn hot. Plus I always thought he had some of the best outfits; by far and away the best dressed since Three. :)
@@craig.a.glesner the dark reddish purple velvet jacket?? The black one with the red lining? He definitely has the best fits
Twelve is the best.
And, yes, the hottest.
"...seeing her time-hunk get reincarnated into an old autistic Scottish man" is one of the most iconic lines I have ever heard in a TH-cam video
I think the “You don’t see me” line at the end of Deep Breath is incredible. He spends most of the episode either too high on regeneration energy or too busy to react to how Clara’s feelings have changed, but in that moment he makes it clear that he’s hurt by it and it’s really impactful. Maybe shouldn’t have been all we got, but it’s great nonetheless.
I remember I loved Doctor Who when I was really little, and capaldi became doctor when i was 11 years old, i was sooo upset that he was old now!
Now, 10 years later, the GUILT that I felt when he said that line, oh my lord, u can really tell that line is written for clara AND the audience to hear
I don't think that is all we got. I think 12's general rudeness to Clara about her appearance ("Well you can't go back [to danny] now, you've already taken off your makeup." Clara: "NO I HAVE NOT") is him dissing her for not seeing him. He doesn't see her, because 1) He's not her boyfriend and 2) she doesn't see him. He seems salty. This treatment also lessens after Mummy on the Orient Express, which is when she finally accepts him.
And to be clear, because I was struggling with my wording: I don't mean that he's salty that he isn't her boyfriend. I just mean that he is upholding that boundary while also being pissed that she doesn't see him as the doctor anymore. There are also lots of other moments in their characterization that directly reflect this change in their dynamic, but I think his "faceblindness" is one of the clearest and most literal examples of this.
The way vastra literally puts on a veil during that conversation about the doctor masking
There's that "Just see me" bit at the end. I feel like that's the Doctor reacting to the way Clara has been treating him
I agree.
@@robertelessar Yes, agreed as well.
I relate to that line so much, i definitely view it as a reaction to Clara’s treatment, as I have said similar things to people’s reactions to me.
I think that the show makes the point that 11th was "masking", it is implied since his debute that he acts that way both because he is an old being that after having suffered for a long time due to his long life span he wants to hide his dark side and pain and act nice and playfull to the younglings (as a grampa would do) and because he wants to be accepted and hide that old side of himself. That's the point they make in his ending, that he is finally able to come terms with himself and his next persona, therby letting his mask go and being more honest with the man he is wich would explain why he acts like that in contrast to his previous incarnations
Yeah of course lol, this is an autistic analysis of the episode but as I said there’s many interpretations a person could have :))
@@mercurialrose 11 had a lot of 'old man' energy :)
Matt Smith confirmed that his portrayal of the Doctor was not meant to be akin to autism. What, just because the Doctor acts infantile, doesn't understand humans, and then shows his true age every now and then?
He's an ALIEN. Saying that alien and childish behaviour are autistic traits is not right either for ppl who are autistic, or for people who aren't
This Doctor is so much more relatable. My obsession with this show is unreal but he’s my comfort character.
As an autistic person, I was furious with Moffatt’s writing for Clara in Deep Breath. She honestly seemed like the modern companion (other than Jack) most likely to welcome the Doctor in any form.
I’ve been a Doctor Who fan since my childhood, and I’m old! I always thought of them as ‘one of us’, & also cried about not living in their reality.
And yes, 12 is my favourite, with 9, 7, & 2 being next. (In no particular order) I like my Doctors a little… spiky with a side of ‘working out their trauma in their interactions with others’.
I think you're totally right, poor Clara was forced into being a strawman for the fans who would or who had complained about the new dr being old. Which doesn't suit her character at all, however the scene with the veil was rather well done I think.
@@VampireDragon9 absolutely, & I will always take more of the Paternoster gang!
I believe it's just because she was unfamiliar with the regeneration trauma.
As soon as the Doctor regenerated, the Doctor:
Forgot how to drive the TARDIS
Somehow travelled to Late Cretaceous and managed to get them swallowed by a T-Rex,
Travelled to London whilst in the throat of said T-Rex,
Got spat out by the dinosaur,
The Doctor confused Clara with a potato (Strax) and also a robot head (Handles),
the collapsed
There were probably other things on top of that.
Clara understands the Doctor had many incarnations (she even met the War incarnation), so to say that she should be totally fine, discounts the fact the Doctor went loopy as the Doctor usually does when they regenerate). Is it any wonder why Clara thought the regeneration went wrong?
Clara only really accepts this Doctor once this incarnation really gets solidified (as with his actual initial costume).
In terms of New Who, the only other companion to really witness a regeneration (minus fake outs) is Rose, and the Doctor was inconveniently asleep for the majority of the story.
@@MrsMoores I like this idea but I swear I've seen Moffatt say in an interview the scene was written to address a lot of the fandoms reaction to Capaldi's age
@VampireDragon9 Maybe so, but Clara did explicitly say she never had any interest in pretty young men to Vastra. Then she also says in the episode that "I never thought you were" when the Doctor said "Clara, I'm not your boyfriend." So there's a bit of a disjoint there.
“When did you stop wearing your veil?”
“When you stopped seeing it?”
That really hits as a bar.
Capaldi's run was over by the time I got my autism diagnosis. When I went back to watch his run again, I saw the parallels right away. I am so glad I'm not the only one who saw ND traits in the Doctor.
I've seen fans talking about how 12 had a 'character development' bc by the end of his run he was more open to hugs. I never saw that as a 'development', as an autistic person who's not a fan of hugs either, I simply see that as 12 being himself. I'm not a fan of hugs but it doesn't mean I never hug ever. I like hugging specific ppl in specific situations. I think 12 has just got 'attached' to those character to the point of not being so uncomfortable with their hugs.
I think in terms of autism i'm a mix of 12 and 13. Sometimes I say things and ppl see me as rude bc of that, it seems like im not emphatetic but I actually am, but i have more of a bubbly personality and can talk too much, also a lot of social awkwardness lol
I think every doctor is sooo neurodivergent but i've never been one to participate with fandoms so I didn't even truly reflect in all details of that. I have always said tho that the Doctor is a very human alien, and I've always felt like a very alien human
great video btw!
I feel you so much on being a mix of 12 and 13, basically story of my life lol
Since I first started watching Doctor Who - well into my forties already at the time - I've never quite understood the notion that the companions are the ones with whom the audience is expected to empathize, that THEY are the audience surrogate. I have always identified most with the Doctor (and when in a bad mood...the Master). And 12 is by far the one who most feels like someone I can appreciate and with whom I can identify, possibly because I'm somewhat older and have been through lots of catastrophic sh*t brought about at least partly by my own almost certain, but undiagnosed, autism. So as soon as I saw this video pop up in my suggestions by TH-cam, I clicked it as my next. Thank you for this.
I think 12 (including his character arc) just reminds me a lot of myself. I first watched Deep Breath when I was 11 and was a lot like Clara and had a lot of internalized stuff. It's interesting to look back now, 8 years later, and relate the most to 12 in that episode and throughout his era.
I really like what you said about how even when episodes are saying to sympathize w the weird, they're still targeted at neurotypicals and not at comforting and speaking to us.
Capaldi is the best Doctor the show has ever had!
I'm glad little autistic me crying in a closet because the doctor wasn't real and I couldn't travel interdimensionally along his side wasn't just a me experience
I'm not autistic, and I'm a Whoosier Whovian (a Doctor Who fan from Indiana). The title of your post caught my eye; I've always been curious how different people experience things that I value, and I have never heard autism in any conversation about the Doctor before now. Thank you for bringing that new type of conversation to me.
Also, thank you for pointing out how difficult it is to find accurate portrayals of the neural divergent (and thank you for expanding my vocabulary, btw). I hope you continue to awaken the general public to the issues here and trigger change!
The cue cards in the underwater episode… the *cue cards telling him how to emote correctly*…
18:33 "...neurotypical's guide to tolerance, overly sympathising and focusing on clara's feelings with little regard to how the doctor is experiencing, following her while she has a crisis and explaining oppression to her" *bang bop whack nail on the head*
Interesting and well said.
It's not just acceptance, it can be a desire to avoid harming others as well.
The Doctor always related to me as a kid and I always just thought I was odd and never knew why, and although his autistic traits may have been used as jokes or strangeness for the average person... For me it never felt bad? Like I'd laugh at the scenes in a "that's me" kind of sense and at the end of the day it actually helped me a ton to be who I am. In spite of whether it was used for comedy or any of the likes, these traits were rarely ever seen as problems for the doctor - like had these traits and oddities that made him different to the norm... But he held them with pride and never really cared if people laughed or felt bad for his differences, and this helped me become so confident in my traits and the way I act.
I'm very desensitised and uncaring if the average person sees me as weird or doesn't like me and I'm me through and through and the doctor is a massive part of that.
To me even when it was used as jokes it only made me feel more comfortable in myself, and maybe it's unhealthy but I often try to interact with people using comedy because if it since I understand my "weirdness" will either be seen as unlikeable or funny.
This is just me personally tho, so other people from different situations may be insulted or upset just... I'm not...
Especially when i was little my parents struggled to deal with me and it felt more I was a problem with how I was, the doctor made me feel like I wasn't.
This is one of the main reasons I love the Doctor so much and see myself in him as well. It's a very refreshing perspective, and thank you for putting it into words
As an ND person, though probably (maybe?) not autism, I like your interpretation of both the show/the Doctor and Deep Breath. I always felt that episodes like that one are meant more to help the audience come to terms with the fact that there is a different person, using at least a somewhat different personality, playing a beloved character. No one really wants a Bewitched switch where the change is completely ignored as if nothing happened. It's something I love about Doctor Who, that different people can play the same character in their own way. However, upon hearing your take, I completely get the crossover to someone unmasking. I think I've always been a bit bad at both recognizing masking and actually doing it myself (possibly because I've only recently been diagnosed at nearly 40), so I like this perspective.
"The Doctor doesn't get to react to her cos he's too busy yelling about Dinosaurs"
Tbh, that's very autistic...
OMG this comment made me laugh for like a whole minute. You're actually so right tho lol
I was at a house party defending the 12th doctor stoned hope you're proud
Capaldi really was one of the very best doctors. Some of the writing was less than perfect, but he always shone.
I also found Clara an absolute delight, and I am aware that this may not be a popular opinion.
The Doctor being some form of space autistic is a general headcannon of mine.
They wanted to make someone who acted just off enough to be alien. The best way I can describe my autism is... alien. Match made in heaven if you ask me.
heaven? heaven sent?? doctor who chadpaldi reference?
"A Universe where a skinny Brit is the world's only hope for survival" is a great way to sum up Who
This video has completely changed my perspective on Deep Breath, and I was thinking what a contrast it is to one of Eleven's first scenes - fish fingers and custard. In my mind, that's a scene that celebrates the Doctor's weirdness in its entirety. As a tiny autistic child I LOVED that scene. The Doctor is disregarding all social norms and politeness and eventually finds that the food he likes is an "abnormal" combination that would get him weird looks in many situations - but in the scene, it's celebrated. It's fun! His willingness to disregard social norms leads to both him and Amelia discovering a fun new thing! This is exactly how the Doctor should be! little me was thinking. Why would they ever make him anything but weird? The Doctor is a fun character who provides the best kind of escapism - showing the world that weirdness is something to be celebrated, because it leads to new fun experiences. As a child I latched onto the Doctor because I didn't know/care about the times his quirkiness was played for laughs - what I saw was a character with no desire to fit in or be normal, whose weirdness was the very thing that made them cool. Everyone loves the Doctor, BECAUSE he's a space alien with no understanding of social rules or the status quo, because what's outside of "normal" is so much better than what's inside it.
God, no wonder I latched onto this show so hard.
Realising why I was perturbed by people saying that you're not supposed to relate with the Doctor given that I've always related to him most
wait..we arnt supposed to? but...but... litrally this made my mind short circet cos i relate to hevily to the doctor its unreal. how can people not relate to him. litrally does not compute.
I called this too... Entire time watching with my also Autistic GF - I was like "he's totally Autistic". Matt Smith as Eleven is totally ADHD. I relate to both Doctor incarnations!
I have always interpreted 12 as rejecting a lot of the closeness with others they had developed in previous seasons that kept causing them pain (Rose, Donna, Amy, but also others) and retreating to a place of intentionally not engaging emotionally with others. They somewhat intentionally (subconsciously) regenerated into someone who doesn't use so much of their energy being affected by the feelings of others.
But also I felt this incarnation was bringing to the fore a lot of Classic Who traits that had always been there, such as their casual arrogance and self-centredness and interest in science/knowledge over people (e.g. 1 and 3). 12 seems WEIRD to many people in contrast to how the previous New Who Doctors had been caring, passionate, huggers (and kissers) etc. but it never felt weird to me. I've always loved bringing back aspects of the Doctor I'd been missing.
But I have to say that after watching your video (which I loved), I think your interpretation of them being unintentionally ND-coded also makes total sense. It doesn't even necessarily clash with my interpretation.
...After all, the Doctor is inherently NOT neuro typical since they don't even have a human brain. They were always ND in some sense. And theoretically, if they can change their face for each regeneration, why can't they sometimes end up with a brain that works more like a human ASD brain, right? Interesting to ponder, I think.
Just finished watching this video about a Neruodivergent that bought every kind of gender at the store rant for 22 minutes and 57 seconds about why my favorite rendition of a British Deity is Autistic, and safe to say I finally figured out why Peter Capaldi is my favorite Doctor.
Thank you Mercurial Rose, have my subscribed and respect.
Okay... that Lizard F*krer bit caught me off guard XD
"A neurotypical's guide to tolerance"...
Yes! That is literally what "Deep Breath" is. And hurrah for that! There are still far too bloody few of those, given how bloody ubiquitous *utterly clueless* neurotypicals are!!!
To the best of my knowledge, Moffat has never either self-identified as autistic, nor been diagnosed as such. I don't think Moffat was "pretending to be on my/our/your side". I think he was doing his best, as a neurotypical who was starting to understand the whole concept of "neurodiversity" (which, N.B., is not just about the "autistic"-"neurotypical" axis (I know you probably know this already, but other readers might not), but also a whole bunch of other axes (some of which I'm sure we haven't discovered yet!) )... to tell less enlightened/experienced members of the audience (especially kids!): "Hey! Other people's strangeness might be startling, and uncomfortable, and annoying... but it's not *WRONG*. It's just *DIFFERENT*. Whatever your first instincts are, well, try to shush them for a minute, and try to see the situation from the '*strange*' person's point of view."
This is a life-lesson that has universal applicability, far beyond our own autism/neurotypical struggles. It applies to meeting refugees from a war-torn country (i.e. people who not only come from a different culture and speak a different language, but may also be suffering from PTSD), and welcoming them into your home town... let alone your *actual* home! (P.S. I would kill - or at list, risk a parking ticket - to see/hear a decent rendering of Jenny's first meeting with Vastra!).
Signed, a 57-year-old British white dude who "failed" his NHS autism assessment by not realising you need to leave your mask(s) at the door. =:o/ (God(s) help any foreign women-of-colour who ever go for assessment, under the current assessment regime! ). (P.S.: Also been a confirmed Doctor Who fan since January 1975.)
Of course! As I said, there’s absolutely a place for stories like this one I just find it disheartening how rare stories that cater to an autistic audience are.
No. It's just dumb. Listen, I am neurodivergent in a way far more debilitating than autism - BPD. One thing that helps about it, though: overpowered empathy. And I can tell you that acting like neurotypical people need a guide in order to be tolerant is both stupid, insulting, anti-empathy, and completely, utterly ineffective at making the non-tolerant ones tolerant.
I remember that when i first began the process of figuring out that im autistic, i told my dad that sheldon from big bang theory is autistic, and he got really mad. He wouldn’t/couldn't explain why, but it's exactly like you said: he didn't want to be seen as someone who makes fun of an autistic person. I never realized what that was before, but hearing you explain that made something click! Thanks random content creator : )
I am on the neurodiversity aspecter, but not as an authistic, but I always related so much with the doctor in certain points, on how he doesn't know how to properly deal with feelings most of the time and sometimes is rude without intentions... It is a really good video!!! Thanks for this (btw, I'm watching u from Brazil and omg, how do I want this video in portuguese)
I totally 100% UNIRONICALLY feel that "I'm right but I have to maintain the pretense of subjectivity". That's how I feel ALL THE TIME.
My older brother is autistic, and while I am not (that I know of) we both love watching doctor who and I can DEFINITELY see some of my brother in 12’s character.
Thank you for your thoughts! I’d like to add that Clara is not het, she talks about crushing on and kissing women.
And unrelated, I read their time together as 11/Clara as very flirty and at the beginning of 12s tenure he put a stop to it with his “im not your boyfriend” and “I never said it was your mistake”, but by the end of their run having come to something much, much deeper than flirting. I am a whouffaldi shipper at heart and I wish everyone else saw how romantic their relationship was
UGH thanks for reminding me of that I’d actually forgotten she alludes to being queer a few times! sorry for the accidental bi erasure Clara fans, I’ll try and not make the same mistake again!
It does chime with the Sherlock Holmes influence too which goes back to the classic era as a trope 👍
9th resonated with me as autistic, but maybe that's because I'm a level 2 female who's good at masking.
I saw so many traits just watching the first episode, but then again, maybe I did not.
It might also be worth mentioning that Moffat wrote Sherlock, another show where the main character is seemingly autistic, despite Cumberbatch's own opinions.
Sherlock was called in autistic in the script, unlike in Doctor Who. I think that was unnecessary and can be hurtful, but it is important for analysis of the shows. Judge based on what people say, not what you think they think.
@@susannahstiles2403 are you saying in the script, which I've not read, refers to Sherlock as being autistic? In the A Study in Pink, Sherlock refers to himself as a "High Functioning Sociopath."
*nods vigorously in autistic* you get me op
3rd, 4th, 7th, and 12th are my favourites
As a person on the spectrum, I feel that Peter Capaldi's incarnation exhibits several Aspergic traits, as does Colin Baker's Sixth Doctor before him. At the latter's convention tables I have seen people approach him and tell him they are autistic and identified with his Doctor in their teens (as did I). One lady even said she related to the Doctor's self-loathing in the aftermath of attacking Peri in The Twin Dilemma---the bit where he recoils at the console and whimpers---she used to have meltdowns like that herself. Colin was both touched and fascinated to hear it.
vaguely unrelated but i latched on to absent friends (doom coalition 3.1) so hard when i first listened to it cause the doctor is so autistic in it. there’s this bit near the end when helen is distraught over the very recent death of her brother she accidentally estranged, and to cheer her up the doctor suggests going to the place she spoke about going to at the start without knowing that the place was her brother’s house and that her brother is dead. helen says no and walks off without actually explaining to him why and he just kinda goes oh. humans. ill never understand them and i went oh god he’s literally me
Interesting take that actually makes a lot of sense. As a father of a 17 year old autistic daughter I find that many of the Doctor's traits and mannerisms do resemble that of an autistic individual. 12 is my favorite Doctor, but now taking into account this autistic angle of him just makes him even more enduring to me. We all can be put in the place of Clara not being able to understand what the Doctor is doing or even to comprehend what kind of person that that they are. To outsiders, people who have Autism are alien in many ways, which is a good allegory to Doctor Who since the Doctor literally is an alien who is so different from us human beings reagardless of how similar they look like us.
There are times I don't understand my daughter though I understand her patterns and habitual actions after having observed her for 17 years, I say this because I cannot go into her mind and try to see what she sees, how to view the world as she must see it. She can become overstimulated, and often times wish to remain alone doing her own thing not being observed by anyone, so this interpretation of 12 really hits home to me, not only because it's a charachter I have already grown to love, but because now I can associate him to someone close to me and rewatch his episodes in a totally different way and have an even greater appreciation for what he is doing looking at it from a viewpoint of an individual who shares many of the same characteristics as my own daughter.
Well done Mercurial!
this video is hands down one the greatest experience from start to finish, the thumbnail alone was gold but your comedic timing is so on point and hilarious. anyway, each the doctor is autistic as fuck and i feel that, i'm autistic as fuck too, like i adore clara in her best but man i was so frustrated with her in this episode in ways that i couldn't explain until i watched this video and Yeah, you totally got what i couldn't. and i've been in that situation myself too, where i unmasked around people i trust and they start to act weird, ive lost friends to it and seeing it spelled out in this video i feel it so hard. so thanks from one autist to another.
also yeah peter capaldi is sexy and that's coming from a lesbian, especially as his hair just gets wilder and yeah lmao.
Right, so first of all, as an autistic, trans Whovian, I found the intro to be the most relatable thing I've probably ever heard lol. I would have totally loved to be your friend as a kid :)
Other than that, I agree with almost everything you've said - Your autistic reading of 12 is actually fairly similar to mine, and you've put so much of it into words better than I ever could.. So thank you for that!
In my personal head-cannon, I do feel like every incarnation of the Doctor has some ND traits, just that the presentation is different (they all display different traits in varying levels of intensity, have different senses that are hypo/hyper etc). This makes a lot of sense to me, since the whole point of regeneration as we understand it, is that they get a whole new body, including a new brain - while still retaining their core personality and memory. So, still an ND brain every time, just on different spots "along the spectrum", if that makes sense.
10 for example, has a bunch of ADHD traits, while also being overtly characterised as "rude" (failing to notice social cues and regulate his tone/bluntness) , while 11 is more "pure" ADHD imo. 12 is probably the one who displays the most common (typically male) autistic traits, while not necessarily being as hyper as the others, which to me makes it seem like he might for a change be autistic and not ADHD. And, as an afab person, I also feel like 13 is actually a fairly good representation of some autistic traits that are considered "typically" female (on top of some more ADHD traits) - And yeah, most of it is due to the poor writing... But it still works. She's basically always masking, has a very herd time recognizing and/or verbalising her own emotions (even when she does seemingly want to open up), literally described as "socially awkward" (fails to notice social cues fairly often), has issues with eye-contact etc. I've noticed you didn't mention 13, but I would love to hear your thoughts about her autistic reading, if you have some.
Anyway, what's beautiful to me about the Doctor as a character, is that they do all share clear special interests in technology, time and the universe - While most incarnations (especially the more ADHD ones) tend to also have side-interests which they hyperfixate about for a while before abandoning and moving on lol. They also all share a deep sense of empathy and social justice. I love that these are still ND traits which are carried across regenerations, since to me they're the core of what makes the Doctor who they are, and the main reason I find them so relatable. I actually think that it's really cool that each incarnation has slightly different traits/personality, and therefore faces different struggles and is perceived slightly differently by others. Some people who don't read the Doctor as ND might claim that these differences in how they're treated have more to do with their visual appearance changing - But I've always felt like that's a very superficial way to view it. Sure, as a trans person I'm in no way naive enough to think that appearances and/or gender have no effect on how someone is viewed and treated - But I would like to believe that at least the type of people which the Doctor would usually invite to become their companion, are genuine and openminded enough to look beyond those things (heck, especially in new who, most of them are actually queer themselves).
All that being said, In the case of Deep Breath, I think that you're totally right about the episode not showing enough of 12's own journey, but I guess that's because it's told from Clara's POV. I feel like you've raised a lot of valid points, but also feel like I have to defend Clara a little bit here.
As she explains in the episode, she doesn't actually have an issue with 12 appearing older - And I honestly, believe her. We know she's a bi woman, we know she tends to be a bit vain and self-centered, but there's no reason to believe that she can't find 12 attractive imo.. She's seen all the Doctor's past faces, she's known for a while that this was a possibility and I genuinely don't think that his face/body changing was ever a problem for her. I think what she did have issues with, is the way in which he's treated her, leading up to and following his regeneration. I 100% agree with you that a lot of said behaviour, could be attributed to autistic traits, and I get that it's the whole point you were trying to make - But I also think people seem to not think about everything that led up to Deep Breath, from Clara's POV.
The Doctor showed up naked to her family thanksgiving dinner, before sending her back to Earth against her will, leaving her to deal with the fallout alone, while also having to worry about her best friend and being unable to help him. Then, once she finally got back, only to find him literally aging and getting ready to die - not only did he never apologize, he actually did it to her again (!), without explaining and again without her permission. In fact, the second time he did it right after explicitly promising not to. She then finally got back to him once again, landing right in the middle of a battlefield where the Doctor was literally dying, only for him to immediately regenerate - At which point they proceeded to crash through time and space, because he forgot how to fly the TARDIS and apparently couldn't remember basic details like Clara's name. He then proceeded to pass out, leaving her alone with people who to her were strangers (and non-human at that), in the 19th century.
Yeah, from the Doctor's POV it's been centuries, and for the viewers we had months between these two episodes - But for Clara? This all canonically happened on the same day! I think it's totally understandable that she'd be pissed, offended and honestly worried about him, since he never actually explained to her about post-regeneration sickness/confusion. If you think about all this as Clara's starting point in the episode, I feel like it's much easier to understand why she reacted like she did by the end of it - Especially after she felt like the Doctor left her again in that restaurant, this time while she was actively in danger. Of course he hadn't, and it was supposedly a plan of his to buy time, but when you consider how he'd already "left" her in a sense so many times earlier that same day, I think her reaction is honestly pretty justified. You can totally see it when in the end of the episode, she's afraid he's completely left her stranded there and took off in the TARDIS (which to be fair, he kinda did, even if he came right back). I think anyone would be worried in this situation, especially after everything she's been through with him over the past 48 hours, and I can totally see why it might make her feel like she doesn't know him/can't trust him anymore.
Unlike Vestra or the Doctor himself (as well as many viewers) like to think, I never believed Clara actually had an issue with 12's appearance, but their personalities did clash more than her and 11 ever did. That being said, by the end of their run, I feel like there's no doubt still some unspoken romantic feelings on both sides tbh. Like, yeah, he told her "I'm not your boyfriend" (cause he was scared and had a hard time seeing her perspective of things), and she accepted it and started dating someone else... But we all know that she never stopped caring about him, often more than she did about her bf. On the Doctor's side of things, he literally spent 4.7 billion years in a torture chamber, then gave up so many of his own principles to save her. I don't think they had a healthy relationship by any means lol.. But I think it's undeniable that it was always still more than a simple friendship, and I feel like even cannon supports this reading, with "we should say what we feel" and zoom-out of the capital while they (probably) confess their love lol.
Yeah, sorry about rambling so much - Can you tell Doctor Who is a major special interest for me and that I've thought about this A LOT? lol
This was a very interesting video essay, and thank you for sharing it
AWESOME COMMENT. YES. I love comments like this never apologise. Looking back at this video I was definitely too hard on Clara and you’re not the first person to point it out, I’ll be nicer to her if I ever make a doctor who video featuring her again lol. I’m very defensive of 12 but the majority of Clara haters are just misogynistic with no valid points so I definitely don’t want to give the impression that I’m part of that crowd, even if I personally find aspects of her character annoying.
I like getting comments like this on older videos because I often don’t have a good sense of the flaws my videos have when I first post them, so this is an opportunity to reevaluate the points I made in the heat of the moment with less bias. So in short yeah awesome comment big fan of this comment
@@mercurialrose Thank you :)
And nah, I don't think you were necessarily too harsh on Clara. You're totally entitled to have your opinion! I did understand that it came from a place of protectiveness over 12, and I honestly felt very much the same when watching this episode for the first time. I did try to focus on expanding about Clara's perspective of things - Just to maybe offer some counterbalance to the (again, very valid and well-put) points you've made in the video.. But I never thought you were one of those misogynistic haters, so don't worry about that!
Also, it's super valid for your opinions to change and shift over time, this video still has a lot of merit! It made some ND whovians like me feel seen, and created some very interesting discussions here in the comments. And if you ever feel the need to rehash any of these points, you can always make another video on this topic ;)
(Totally not saying this because I'm biased and want to hear your ND reads on other Doctors/an expansion on 12's ND read haha)
@@micron000 I’m currently working on a long term project that will cover every single doctor to a certain degree, so while it won’t be for a while I for sure will talk about all of them at some point, and it’s hard to do without bringing up how neurodivergent they all are so you can look forward to that for sure lmao
I have autism.
And I relate so hard with the opening line of this video.
Subbed.
I'd never noticed how much more consistent twelve's characterisation vis a vis being social around humans was. Really good point, and good video overall.
THANK YOU FOR THIS, GOD, for years (as i grew to love 12 more and more) something about this season and this episode in particuler really bugged me and i could never really put in into words that explained it well to myself and others!! thank you for this!! i love 12 now, as i come into my own autistic dignosis that i recived recently. gosh, this interpatation of completely losing his preevios ability to mask, ie controlling his social preception that 11 almost prefected, and thus giving birth to 12, is such a good analysis and i adored watching this !!
now, for years my autistic ass related the most to 11, as he managed to be a combo of masking and non masking that i relate to in real life a lot. because to me it feels like 11 was the one who sort of started to accept his strangeness and how sometimes he does not have to make it palatable to others, while still masking so heavily on purcpe of "being liked at all" which is an unhealthy show of it that i am happy the univerce had to littirly change about him as he became 12
this has blown my mind and i adore it dearly, if you ever feel like doing this kind of analysis of the rest of 12s era, i would be delighted. but his video was a delight either way!! thank you for this i cannot explain how my mind was blown
i (autistic) showed my partner (autistic) deep breath and cried at the bit at the end where 12 briefly gets to tell clara to stop treating him like shit. very on the autistic 12 train and really love this video!! would be interested to hear any thoughts you might have about 13 being autistic - i find it almost entirely frustrating whereas 12 being autistic is a source of joy for me
I’m too much of a chibnall hater to make a video about 13 lol but I do think that her autistic traits were treated a lot more maliciously than 12’s were
lmao fair enough probably not worth the time / effort! it does feel more malicious especially when it's used as an excuse for her to take no action or to just be generally unpleasant to her companions without much to remind you that she's not horrible to them too? shouldn't be a huge surprise given the attempt at dyspraxia rep but hey ho
13 is a jerk, not autistic. Why did 12 become 13? 13 is not relatable at all. I'd be interested in a discussion on how traumatic experiences influence autistic behavior and character development.
You're right about everything especially the attractiveness point
the show and this video has done so much for my autism i love hearing your passionate talk and analysis :)
Thank you! My channel definitely doesn’t have enough doctor who content I feel so I’ll definitely be talking more shit about this silly autism show in future lol
I know 12 had bad scrips and stories, but I love him. He's my favorite Docter.
I watched this episode before realising i might be autistic/ getting diagnosed, and i always interpreted this episode as a way of dealing with clara's greatest flaw: her narrowmindedness. But this makes a lot more sense.
no wonder why 12 is my favorite
and i relate to him a lot, huh
"My" Doctor was initially number 4 (Tom Baker) version, hence I've always seen the Doctor as Different in many fundamental ways; I did enjoy number 12's (Peter Capaldi) early 'eccentricities' despite the usual ableism throughout; representation matters to me, however my own internal ableism is such that I need to see these things for myself; (a Late diagnosed AuDHDer her!!!)
oh so THAT why i love capaldi so much.......
The speed and the way you talk is exactly how I talk to myself in my head it's so satisfying. And 12 is my favourite too, had some of the best episodes I think about constantly (aka heaven sent).
Now that you've mentioned it, I realise why Clara felt more like the main character instead of the doctor in some scenes, is that we always see her reactions to things that he did, but rarely we see his reactions to things Clara did.
Like the one where she throws his Tardis keys into lava, and he's just like "I forgive you bc I still care about you" but that's like it??? I would've loved to see his opinion of her change at least a little, like a scene where he rehides the Tardis keys afterward or something, instead of what felt like 'you're a human so ofc you're dumb i forgive you'.
Also, having your own subtitles in videos would be awesome for my ~auditory processing~ :D
I’ll be sure to add subtitles on my next video just for you!
Putting this here purly for my own joy and for the sake of conversation I guess and it doesn't actually have much to do with the main point of the video anyways the doctor and his touch adversion means so much to me because of the way if sort of evolves with clara and their relationship
Course I read him as he's just like me fr, so context, beyond general touch adversion, a lot of my dislike of it is the fact that touch is just another form of communication and its like I never learned that language, its stressful not to know what you're communicating, etc yknow.
The first time he seeks out touch is when he's afraid in Sleep No More (if I remeber correctly) and he asks clara to hold his hand. HE ASKS. and tells her its because he's scared. He wanted clara's comfort in that moment and so he cut out the hand-holding-nonverbal-touch-mystery-communication which makes so much sense to me. Also people dont usually ask him if its okay to touch him, and he does because well he thinks people should and he wishes people would. And he clearly verbally communicates it.
Btw when he says he doesn't like hugs because its just a way to hide your face is sooooooooo proving my point rn like he doesn't like it. because its using a different form of communication (than expression or words which he understands better than whatever the fuck touch is).
Actually I take it back I got really tired half way through writing just that but case in point while I think part of 12s touch adversion going away later in s9 is in part writing for the sake of a dramatic meaningful scenes to the audience while forgetting character traits (clara touching his face like three times (ew)) I also think it can be evidence of their little character growth.
Hear me out cause I feel like I sounds crazy when I talk about this but I'm currently loosing my mind over the concept of people and characters showing their love for each other by (in small acts, at least) acomidating for each other. Acomidating, for lack of a better word, I know there's a better one out there somewhere. Anyways, for a 12 example he does things to show river that he loves her in ways that she would see as romantic but he wouldn't normally (like the entire final scene from The Husbands of River Song, dressing up and complimenting her looks etc) because River wasn't feeling loved. So he shows her he loves her by mimicking her.
Maybe it was intended to be a rather questionable flaw or maybe it was just disregard but I always read it as a choice between the two of them. The doctor being okay with clara touching him because he trusts her and loves her and, between them, understands the language(even by the end the amount clara touches him is still minimal).
THIS BEING SAID like you mentioned there is a huge lack of sympathy for the doctors perspective in the writing, and while the two examples I gave were the doctors act-of-love-accomidations there may be examples of the reverse that I cant remember right now that are actually framed in a way that isn't like the doctors autistic or otherwise weird traits are a burden or something the other characters have to work around. Instead rather also being forms of this love language.
Anyways that was approximately three points in one- Ive just been thinking about the doctor and clara and the doctors touch adversion a lot so you must forgive me. I like the actual point of ur video btw very good
I AM ALSO 100% PROJECTING LIKE DONT GET ME WRONG
I don't have much to add, but I just had to say that I love and agree with everything you've written here
Thank you for explaining why the NT companions, as surrogates for "the audience", most often annoy and bewilder me! Of course I'm going to empathise much more strongly with the ND main character. And I love Capaldi's characterisation - it made me feel as though the classic era Doctors were finally showing up in the reboot era.
I really enjoyed your commentary! Peter Capaldi is awesome, LOVE 12 - hate most of the stories tho. I think Moffatt's really weak on plot and far too ready to throw the companions in the fire for the sake of tragic drama. I think he created a great doctor here, but didn't know what to do with him, but - again - that's Moffatt for you. Totally agree with your assessment about coming at it all from the neurodivergence-as-comedy POV (autism makes neurotypicals uncomfortable, as a rule), but on the other hand at least they allow him to *have* neurodivergent traits without seeming to expect him to change who he is. On some level, at least, his companions (in most incarnations) have to adapt to *him*. It's a start.
Always wondered why I found Deep Breath to be so unbearably frustrating to watch. Little autistic me was SO confused as to why Clara couldn't wrap her head around him just now showing his less desirable eccentricities. And being so weirded out by him that she forgot it's the same person??? I could probably enjoy the ep more now if I watched it from a different lens but yeah you definitely hit the nail on the head. Banger video
this is such an interesting video essay, thank you for making it! as someone whose simultaneous favourite and least favourite seasons came from the capaldi era, i definitely relate to the ideas here of loving and also hating competing aspects of the same episode.
i personally love how shittily clara reacts in this episode, because it (kind of inadverdently? or scuffed-ly, maybe is more accurate) also serves as commentary on her own masking/performative behaviour. it shows clara and 11 both knew on some level they were bullshitting each other (eleven never says anything nearly as incisive or true about clara as twelve - very earnestly and sweetly! - saying he doesn't want her to stop being a needy egotistical game player, but he hasn't like, seen anything New about clara in between then and regenerating. he's just willing to be honest now) playing paticularly perfect versions of themselves, and its genuinely fascinating that clara gets like. offended? when 12 first takes that mask down. she doesn't want authenticity, she wants her storybook fairytale ('that wasn't a leaf, that was page one') and the masked version of the doctor is a better story.
but then, like you said, the behaviours that the twelfth doctor reveals/unmasks abt are on a very different axis to clara's. when he's the butt of the joke it's almost always neurodivergent and autistic traits the audience is cued to laugh at, compared to clara where the joke is that she's an asshole (/beloved). of course, that's more of a season long arc, since at this point the average watcher thinks clara's a mary sue, but does that mean the doctor has to be treated as terrifying/a freak by every lay person until 11's phone call? again: simultaneously great and terrible. maybe it would've undercut the significance of the doctor unmasking, but i think if instead of the homeless guy being terrified of him, he reacted much more neutrally or positively towards him ('hey, this guy seems upset, i wonder if i can help') that in itself would've been a really important critique of clara's attitude. she got so worried about the optics of the regeneration she skipped over being concerned about how distressed the doctor was, and so the episode kind of does too (w the exception of the dinosaur's death, where the audience is encouraged to sit with how sad + lonely that is).
okay ive kind of lost the point of this. insert that one tumblr post here where if art is terrible it slides frictionlessly out of ur life and if its a specific type of bad with potential you will never stop thinking about it ever.
The 11th Doctor has always been ADHD to me. Constantly seeking validation and stimulation from his environment, literally can't sit still, "flapping his hands about"... it was comforting to me as a neurodivergent kid to see a competent adult character who wasn't afraid to enjoy silly things sometimes :)
My autistic self reads most of the Doctors as some variant of neurodivergent, honestly.
As an autistic person who only got into Doctor Who in 2022 in preparation for the 60th anniversary specials while everyone else in my family is a Whovian, reading any version of the Doctor, especially the revival series Doctors, as neurodivergent makes a lot of sense.
Me when I'm making (badly):
11th doctor.
Me when I lose the ability to mask due to stress/anxiety/tiredness/ect:
12th doctor.
I love 12. Yes there are some auty traits but they are alien
I cannot relate enough to the point about autistic coding in comedy. There's been so many times where I watched a movie/series with other people, and the whole room would burst with laughter at scenes with behavior which I found perfectly normal and acceptable, if not outright relatable.
The other day I watched Yorgos Lanthimos' "The Lobster" which featured very heavy autism coding for all its characters (overt bluntness, inability to understand social structures, socializing through infodumping and SO much more). I enjoyed it a lot, and got curious how other people experienced it, so I googled up some reviews. To my shock, many people found it a hilarious comedy. One review went so far as to say "the dialogue was a brilliant satirization of today's social landscape". And I'm like "No it wasnt?!" During the viewing I have multiple times made the "DiCaprio pointing at TV meme", amazed at how accurately some of my personal quirks/behaviors were represented in the characters. And then I find out that apparently all of that is just a joke. And to be clear I absolutely believe that The Lobster can be viewed as absurdist comedy, but so many people were pointing out how they found the behavior (which I so strongly related to) as explicitly comedic.
And don't get me started on the amount of times a neurotypical person I know reacted to me stimming as "doing a funny dance"
In media, there's really only 2 kinds of autistic characters that neurotypical audiences recognize: the savant and the nonverbal. And the savant gets this weird fascination that essentially allows the audience to erase the rest of what being autistic is, UNLESS it is a struggle for neurotypical characters around them. Then it is how hard it is for those characters to cope with an autistic person, but hey, it's "worth it" because they are a genius. This framing has erased all neurodivergence in between. I think it also takes away from the fact that all characters, no matter who they are, can be funny, but what you play for laughs is different. The 10th doctor had some neurodivergent qualities to him that could not be chalked up to "quirkiness" or "being weird," they were specifically from his personality change from his regeneration. 12's regeneration, as far as what he looked like, was a reminder to himself instead of a mask for everyone else. It was more important, and he was treated poorly for it, just like when neurodivergent people unmask for themselves, they get treated poorly. Then his interactions with people is a whole other conversation that could fill a book. I think a lot of the hate that some of the episodes get was confusing to me because I accepted the doctor how he was presented to me. "Oh the doctor would never" doesn't mean the same when you are judging it off of the actions of 9, 10, or 11 when looking at 12. I think they actually would, but the reasons would have been communicated differently. But 12 doesn't communicate with Clara the same way 11 did. Even if the writers didn't intentionally write 12 as autistic, that is how he ended up, essentially. If the behaviors and ways of communication you write in for the doctor are often identical to neurodivergent people, and they can't all be explained by "oh, he's just an alien," that character is neurodivergent. You can't write a character who keeps falling in love with people of the same gender and wonder why the audience keeps assuming they are gay or bisexual, no matter how many times your character says they are straight. That's literally how you are writing your character.
Yep! Might as well not even have made this video lol you summed it up perfectly
@@mercurialrose no, your video was wonderful! I have only just started my doctor who journey lol. But I do have a lot of trouble with change, which is what kept me from watching any of it, seeing as the doctor changes all the time lol. But I watched Good Omens, and that made me decide that the one doctor I would pick would be 10. Then I saw a clip of 12, and I thought... eh, with the Scottish accent, I could kinda see myself tricking me into watching him as well without the change feeling as jarring... (there were other factors too, like based on the anniversary I watched that had 10 and 11, 11 seems to simplify the nerdy science stuff a lot, 10 rambled through it all, and 12 loves it and I saw bits of him explaining abstract concepts, stuff like that). Then I saw your video pop up. I just watched it now, because I wanted to save it until after. But seeing it was that final push to try out 12. I probably never would have experienced the 12th doctor if you hadn't made this video. So thank you 💙
@@darkermatter125.35 AWESOME I’m always happy to indoctrinate more people into being 12th doctor enjoyers I’m so glad
@@mercurialrose and I also just wanted to mention that, while my comment may be relatively coherent, I'm in my 30s and I am just figuring out that I'm autistic. I was given an adult adhd diagnosis a while ago, but as a woman with my.... super complicated past, no one ever thought to diagnose me, I had to learn to mask way more than the average autistic person (I grew up in a dangerous situation, and everywhere I was at required lying about something on top of masking). I also can't safely get a diagnosis, because my parents have gotten around HIPAA for other things. It isn't the only medical thing I've had to ignore. So being able to come to videos like this where there is a dialogue from that perspective is a ton of help for me. At the very least I know I'm not going crazy, lol. I can see a lot of what is happening from the outside, how different characters or other people are recieved, and the amount I have had to mask to make sure most people just forget I exist. But this video, and others like it, feel so safe, and let me enjoy characters/shows with people who see it through the same lens. So I truly do appreciate it. 💙
@@darkermatter125.35 this makes me so unbelievably happy, I don’t have exactly the same experience as I was diagnosed quite young (around 8) but I definitely had to mask a lot due to bullying or even just people who knew I was autistic that didn’t realise when my behaviours were autism symptoms and not just a “bad attitude”. I’m glad you have the language to talk about your experiences now it helps a great deal! I was feeling pretty uninspired today because I’m having technical difficulties with my current video WIP but reading this definitely makes me want to make more videos about being neurodivergent, it’s wonderful that my perspectives and ideas are able to help people feel more seen and I hope that talking about these things will become more destigmatised soon!
When I hear that loving Doctor Who is a symptom of Autism, I think: maybe I am Autistic after all. But then I remember that I got tested Years ago and the test basically said "No, you are just weird, live with it."
12th is my fav doctor and now I think I better understand why
In Deep Breath there is that wonderful scene where there is ambiguity as to whether the T-Rex or the Doctor is expressing bewilderment and the desire to be seen which underlined in the phone call scene. This gets a beautiful pay off in Twice Upon A Time where glass Bill is also pleading to be seen for what she is but the Doctor is in denial.
yay! i love the 12th doctor and autism :)
arnold rimmer from red dwarf is a really good example of a character who's autistic traits are there solely to be laughed at 👍
As a person that suffers from autism, I wondered why i fell in love with the 11th and 12th doctors. Since my first episode of doctor who was silence in the library; And i fell in love with it sense.
My favourite types of media is when the writer is so obviously undiagnosed so practically every character is autistic and well written without those two stereotypical categories you listed
In defence of Clara in Deep Breath:
I believe it's just because she was unfamiliar with the regeneration trauma.
As soon as the Doctor regenerated, the Doctor:
Forgot how to drive the TARDIS
Somehow travelled to Late Cretaceous and managed to get them swallowed by a T-Rex,
Travelled to London whilst in the throat of said T-Rex,
Got spat out by the dinosaur,
The Doctor confused Clara with a potato (Strax) and also a robot head (Handles),
the collapsed
There were probably other things on top of that. Is it any wonder why Clara thought the regeneration went wrong?
I agree that Clara needed a mediator but not because she is ableist but because she just needed to come to terms with the Doctor. Clara only really accepts this Doctor once this incarnation really gets solidified (as with his actual initial costume).
In terms of New Who, the only other companion to really witness a regeneration (minus fake outs) is Rose, and the Doctor was inconveniently asleep for the majority of the story.
Yeah valid, I’m talking more about what the doctors regeneration could represent to the audience in an allegorical sense rather than analysing the literal events of the episode, that’s why I said there’s endless possible interpretations :)
@mercurialrosevalentine I understand where you're coming from. I kind of watched it as a representation of grief (as she saw the Eleventh Doctor age over time (and actually give up before the Timelords intervention)).
And they do end up having one of the most strongest relationships in the show (in spite of being matched by Missy).
I am autistic and i didnt think of this episode like that, but i know next time i do watch it i will look at it from this perspective as well [i really did take it literally as to clara being no longer attracted to the doctor for looking older.... which i also agree is stupid cause 12 is SOOOO much better than 11 in every way]
i will say... there is a short where 12 talks about having adhd which i genuinely love!!
I love every version of the doctor having different variations of autism, which is really fun!
I also love how even by galifrayan standards, the doctor really is fucking weird... which kinda helps against the whole alien=autistic thing...
thank you for this video!
Thank you for helping me further understand my everlasting love for Capaldi
i have autism and adhd as well and love the doctor for also being so.
I saw the 12th Doctor as someone who is autistic and I myself have Autism! As he grew, I developed throughout that time!!!
Is saw 11 with ADHD and I likewise have ADHD! *I didn't have it when Smith aired, I was a Kid*
I feel like Steven Moffat time *Despite I am Nostalgia* Understood these Disorders and, as an adult can see my Doctors as myself more insight!!! Also, That scene in Deep Breath did so much for 13 YO me who was still dealing with Post Smith!!!
as an autistic person i never thought about this but thanks for the free headcanon
this thumbnail is the funniest thing ive seen in my entire life
As an autistic person I based all my mannerisms on the 11 and 12th docs. I don’t like physical contact or get social cues like 12 but I talk with my hands like 11
I’ve never thought of Carlos having NPD. You should definitely make a video on that
I definitely will as soon as my idea list runs dry it’s a long time coming lol
I am in my final year of high school, and I am doing autism representation for my Society and culture PIP. Every single person I have told this to has told me “watch doctor who”. So yes. I *will* be using this video as a source. Thank you.
For me, I have severe ADHD so often resonated with the 11th doctor because I saw a lot of myself in that character but to your point, I also would like to add that I know that a lot of the symptoms between autism and ADHD can overlap each other but these symptoms might be triggered from different circumstances and also there is some people who have both autism and ADHD
Hes just scottish.
I'm not autistic but I found this interesting :) thank you for the video. I hope you're channel will grow and you will be able to invest in a better quality microphone soon 😉
you have such good opinions
trans autistic doctor who fan here! i really love your take on deep breath, first time watching the episode i thought the sentiments clara expressed felt really weird and i for a hot minute associated it with transphobic sentiment in my head lmao but your take on it really makes it click as to why i felt so little sympathy for the clara plot, while still really truly enjoying all of twelve's screentime in the episode. i don't care about all that clara girl you saw all the doctors' incarnations before, get over it
I'm autistic and love doctor who so this is great!