Hey Zeroden, as your Perma Red Shai friend, and here's my take on your proposal: Overall I think this is a good idea, but I do think the developers will never implement something like this. I personally think it's a fine change, but I think it goes against the current purpose of karma. Karma is currently in the game to penalize a player for killing a player who doesn't want to fight, while in your system Karma is a resource to see how many unique players you can engage. While similar, these are very different in execution for the exact reason you want it changed. Your system would allow for tunneling on one player and actively camping them with no penalties. While we can definitely point to examples where this makes sense, I think we all could see a new player getting camped. While this situation is unlikely your system wouldn't protect that new player. From what I have seen and heard the devs seem to value this hypothetical new player a lot when designing the current systems. Also I believe a system that requires 1 hour of pvp to penalize someone is flawed. I get stream sniped for hours as a red player because there's no penalties, but if you made a system like this it would allow for many people to stream snipe. Think about how quickly you can farm Karma, and if the streamer has gear then you probably can take the hit super easily. This might actually make the game more toxic and be more abused than the current Karma system. Finally with the checking bags/storage for gear, while good in concept I think it is important to specify the changing of gear after the first engagement rather than the possession. If I attack a lifeskiller, even if they have gear, they aren't wearing it for a good reason, and I am taking a cheap shot at them. This is something the current Karma system is in place to prevent, but your system would not penalize me as hard. Therefore I think this part of the system is also a hard sell for the devs. This is why I think a good alternative is checking gear after the first engagement. If I attack you and you take off gear to bait me into killing you, that is very different than you never having worn the gear in the engagement. I think the current Karma system is very flawed but I am just not certain this is a solution the devs would ever be willing to go with. ------------------------------------- However the second half of the system about heal/buffs while 49 or under protection I think is extremely reasonable and I think that's worth pushing for. I see no reason why that would go against the dev's vision of the game. I appreciate you Zeroden sorry for my take
The current system has it's flaws, and while my recommendation is not flawless, I think it's objectively better than what's there now. While a player can be targetted for an hour, he's also not forced to stay and deal with that situation of getting flagged on by the same person, but they can. The current system forces a player to leave or lose potentially billions in silver in the form of crystals, or just accept the griefing of a player not willing to flag, but willing to mob feed. In my opinion, it's far worse. I feel for the new player, but we've introduced shorter channel cooldowns and marni realms where these circumstances would fall more outside of the norm than Karma bombing/mob feeding/dfs/decing over grindspots would.
@Zeroden I typed up a massive reply then refreshed so I am going to retype it. I think your solution is not better than the current system and I will explain why. I do not think your solution fixes the issues you claim it does. Lets look at some plausible situations within your system: Situation 1 Person A is grinding a rotation and Person B shows up. Person A and Person B have about equal gear. Person B flags on Person A, killing them, then Person A respawns and kills Person B. This cycle repeats and a war dec is given, allowing both players to start a war over the rotation. Situation 2 Person A is grinding a rotation and Person B shows up. Person B has significantly more gear than Person A. Person B flags on Person A, killing them. Person A respawns, and realizes they have no chance of killing Person B. They end up repeatedly suiciding into Person B attempting to feed Person B to mobs. Eventually they succeed. Situation 3 Person A is grinding a rotation and Person B shows up. Person B says to Person A that they will grief the next hour of Person A's grind unless they win a duel for the rotation. Person A while not wanting to duel, is forced to because Person B would have very little to lose by suiciding into Person A. Situation 4 Person A is grinding a rotation and Person B shows up. Person B calls his friend Person C and they grief Person A's rotation. Person A flags, but notices that Person C's account is brand new. Person A ends up losing over 300k Karma and is forced to leave. All of these situations are very possible within your solution. All of these are problems you pointed out with the current Karma system, but they are also present in your solution. War decs, Mob Feeding, Duel for Spot, and Karma Bombing are all still very viable options when it comes to taking a spot forcefully from another player within your system. I think your solution is very favored towards hyper geared players, and does not acknowledge anything below that. This is why I think you might not see how big the flaws are. If you are able to die to the other player in these encounters, they become nearly identical in their endpoints to the current Karma system. ----------------- So while your solution ends up with similar flaws to the current Karma system, it actually creates more problems. Harassment would be a major effect of your solution, because the lack of Karma punishment repeat kills allows a single player to force another player to swap servers or sit in safezone for an hour. The current Karma system would penalize a player for griefing another player this hard, but your system does not account for that. Therefor streamsnipers that are very prevelant on arsha will become prevelant on all servers. Even if swapping resets the timer, there are many reasons a player may not want to swap servers. They might not even be grinding at the time the attacks happen. Finally the biggest problem of your proposal is the devs themselves. The devs have shown consistently that they have very strong visions of how the game is supposed to be and changes that go against their visions are rare. This is most notable in class balance(Shai for instance is never going to get a skill designed around her 1v1 ability, even if I ask really really nicely D;). Because of their strong views around Karma, your solution is going to be a very hard sell. Karma to the devs is a resource and this resource is to stop you from ruining the game for other players without penalties. Your system allows for a good amount of this. Also the devs value a new player's experience, and your system actively says that the new player's experience matters less than the veteran's. It is going to be very hard to ever convince them this should be the case regardless of the reality. ------------------------------------------------ So what should we do instead? I think these are the most reasonable Karma changes you could realistically push to the devs: *No mob feeding. Just remove it. If you were damaged by a player, and that player has the combat flag, just make death to mobs count as their kill with no karma loss. *-500k degrades. Losing enhancement on items is a very steep penalty for red players. However this most commonly preys on new players rather than permareds like me. If a player does not understand how the Karma system works, they might not understand you can lose enhancement level on gear when you die. My simple proposal is have this only be a possibility for people under -500k Karma. This simply targets this penalty at people like me, while still a low risk due to crystal protection. *Your proposal for flagging green/guild protected players that buff allies in combat. D; sorry for long reply
@Remminia in situation 1, no one turns red for the Altercation, resulting in potentially billions of silver lost. In situation 2, if player combat detection is enabled, the mob feed results in no loss to the player. He spawns node or town, and saves potentially billions of silver. In situation 3, this currently exists right now, except the person grinding cannot adequately defend themselves. If they allow the other person to flag on them repeatedly, the situation is no different than it is right now. If they decide to opt-in for the first strike advantage for flagging, they will go negative and potentially lose billions of silver. The recommended system prevents that. Situation 4 exists in the current system, only it does not even require person C. The fact that it doesn't require person C at all means that instances of this are likely to reduce substantially. In all versions if this, the proposed system is superior to the existing system.
@Zeroden Two of my issues are not addressed by this response. I pointed to possible solutions that I feel are viable changes to the system. Why would my few Karma changes be worse than your diminishing system? And again this does not seem viable to push for, as the devs clearly have a vision for this system that diminishing Karma kills goes against. D;
For anyone that's worried about someone getting focused killed for a hour. They aren't forced to stay there and get killed lol. Idk how possible it is with BDO's spaghetti code, but if you could have the penalty per server it would work out well. Ie, if you swap server you lose your penalty vs the player killing you, but if you swap back to the original server before the hours over your still debuffed. Only other options I could think of is like: - A Zone mechanic. Where flagging penalties greaten or lessen based on what grind spots your at. This way you could duke it out in hex but get punished for killing noobs at sulpher mine. - Or a gear system, where can only flag on people within X gear range of yourself.
I have had people follow me around. I literally was doing horse training. Then I went to killing Bison. Then I went to Sheep. The same person kept following me around targeting me. This is a griefers wet dream.
It wont work because they have to consider bullying before they can even modify the karma system. Don't know how it is on pc but on console, people can get very toxic bullying people they know full well they out gear and will say its fair. The best way to deal with it in my opinion (and this might not sit well with the people who like to pvp) Is to remove the Karma system on normal servers and create purely pve servers for the people who don't want to experience pvp. They'll also have to come up with a solution so that players can comfortably grind on these pve servers without worrying about player interference. No one will go for this of course because it would basically limit pvp interactions and create dead pvp servers. Karma bombing sucks yeh, but getting bullied in a game you’re suppose to be enjoying sucks more. This is the player bases fault to be honest and unless players can come to an agreement and draw the line where it needs to be drawn, nothing will change. Stick to Arsha if you don't want to worry about losing karma. Thats what the servers for after all.
Terrible idea. This would allow a single player or group of players to target and harass others indefinitely. Only a malicious individual could come up with this and see it as a positive. Karma system sucks but it's there to protect us from abusive players.
Groups of players can do that right now with little or no repercussions. Player combat detection will eliminate the mob-feeding toxicity from it, and treat it like an ordinary PvP death rather than a loss of Crystals or Exp. Could a player get camped out of a spot? Yes, in both circumstances it can happen right now, but one does not result in players who are defending themselves going red & losing their crystals.
@@Zeroden except that's the risk you take when engaging in forced PvP, losing crystals and going red. If you're defending your spot you won't go red, and if you're that worried about your crystals there's V and esc+esc. Really, the only thing they need to change is instant flagging so grab classes can't just run up to you for free and force a V. They're not interested in griefing multiple players, 99% of them want their preferred grind zone/spot. Nobody goes around killing multiple players multiple times on non Arsha servers. If they do, they're in an extreme minority. People care a lot less about losing crystals, save for a few exceptionally rare ones, than you lead on. And exp loss can be prevented entirely by elion's tears, nobody cares about exp loss.
@@Zeroden the current system doesnt force anyone to do anything. it just doesnt work. but that doesnt mean it forces you. if you dont kill the player, you dont need to go.you can both grind the same spot less effectively.
I strongly disagree about dfs. If you refuse dfs, it is you that is the griefer, not the person grinding over you, by virtue of this being a pvp based game. If someone wants your spot and you don't want to fight for it but you still want to keep it, that's griefing.
@@Zeroden Yeah and that's a choice you make. However, this game is still supposed to be about pvp. If I want to take your spot and I beat you, the spot should be mine, without an option for you to not only not care, but also be able to punish me for playing the game as it is supposed to.
@YberDC I know, and we agree on this, that's what deminishing returns adresses. You don't need to DFS and can't be karma griefed for refusing one. You can still die and lose the spot.
@@Zeroden Personally I'd like something more extreme. Karma should be lost by the person who is being killed too, inversely proportional to the method you proposed, but more severe, so that the person being killed turns red sooner and loses his crystals, xp and gear. Only something like this would stop blatant karma abuse.
@@YberDC what would stop me from killing strangers and making them go red in that karma system? It sounds like everybody is being punished for my actions except me.
Not sure what you mean. This was a reshoot of something I discussed live. I don't think I did anything of consequence yesterday other than train horses. 🤔
Thanks for coming to my TED Talk
Hey Zeroden, as your Perma Red Shai friend, and here's my take on your proposal:
Overall I think this is a good idea, but I do think the developers will never implement something like this. I personally think it's a fine change, but I think it goes against the current purpose of karma.
Karma is currently in the game to penalize a player for killing a player who doesn't want to fight, while in your system Karma is a resource to see how many unique players you can engage. While similar, these are very different in execution for the exact reason you want it changed. Your system would allow for tunneling on one player and actively camping them with no penalties. While we can definitely point to examples where this makes sense, I think we all could see a new player getting camped. While this situation is unlikely your system wouldn't protect that new player. From what I have seen and heard the devs seem to value this hypothetical new player a lot when designing the current systems.
Also I believe a system that requires 1 hour of pvp to penalize someone is flawed. I get stream sniped for hours as a red player because there's no penalties, but if you made a system like this it would allow for many people to stream snipe. Think about how quickly you can farm Karma, and if the streamer has gear then you probably can take the hit super easily. This might actually make the game more toxic and be more abused than the current Karma system.
Finally with the checking bags/storage for gear, while good in concept I think it is important to specify the changing of gear after the first engagement rather than the possession. If I attack a lifeskiller, even if they have gear, they aren't wearing it for a good reason, and I am taking a cheap shot at them. This is something the current Karma system is in place to prevent, but your system would not penalize me as hard. Therefore I think this part of the system is also a hard sell for the devs. This is why I think a good alternative is checking gear after the first engagement. If I attack you and you take off gear to bait me into killing you, that is very different than you never having worn the gear in the engagement.
I think the current Karma system is very flawed but I am just not certain this is a solution the devs would ever be willing to go with.
-------------------------------------
However the second half of the system about heal/buffs while 49 or under protection I think is extremely reasonable and I think that's worth pushing for. I see no reason why that would go against the dev's vision of the game.
I appreciate you Zeroden sorry for my take
The current system has it's flaws, and while my recommendation is not flawless, I think it's objectively better than what's there now.
While a player can be targetted for an hour, he's also not forced to stay and deal with that situation of getting flagged on by the same person, but they can. The current system forces a player to leave or lose potentially billions in silver in the form of crystals, or just accept the griefing of a player not willing to flag, but willing to mob feed.
In my opinion, it's far worse. I feel for the new player, but we've introduced shorter channel cooldowns and marni realms where these circumstances would fall more outside of the norm than Karma bombing/mob feeding/dfs/decing over grindspots would.
@Zeroden I typed up a massive reply then refreshed so I am going to retype it.
I think your solution is not better than the current system and I will explain why.
I do not think your solution fixes the issues you claim it does. Lets look at some plausible situations within your system:
Situation 1
Person A is grinding a rotation and Person B shows up. Person A and Person B have about equal gear. Person B flags on Person A, killing them, then Person A respawns and kills Person B. This cycle repeats and a war dec is given, allowing both players to start a war over the rotation.
Situation 2
Person A is grinding a rotation and Person B shows up. Person B has significantly more gear than Person A. Person B flags on Person A, killing them. Person A respawns, and realizes they have no chance of killing Person B. They end up repeatedly suiciding into Person B attempting to feed Person B to mobs. Eventually they succeed.
Situation 3
Person A is grinding a rotation and Person B shows up. Person B says to Person A that they will grief the next hour of Person A's grind unless they win a duel for the rotation. Person A while not wanting to duel, is forced to because Person B would have very little to lose by suiciding into Person A.
Situation 4
Person A is grinding a rotation and Person B shows up. Person B calls his friend Person C and they grief Person A's rotation. Person A flags, but notices that Person C's account is brand new. Person A ends up losing over 300k Karma and is forced to leave.
All of these situations are very possible within your solution. All of these are problems you pointed out with the current Karma system, but they are also present in your solution. War decs, Mob Feeding, Duel for Spot, and Karma Bombing are all still very viable options when it comes to taking a spot forcefully from another player within your system. I think your solution is very favored towards hyper geared players, and does not acknowledge anything below that. This is why I think you might not see how big the flaws are. If you are able to die to the other player in these encounters, they become nearly identical in their endpoints to the current Karma system.
-----------------
So while your solution ends up with similar flaws to the current Karma system, it actually creates more problems. Harassment would be a major effect of your solution, because the lack of Karma punishment repeat kills allows a single player to force another player to swap servers or sit in safezone for an hour. The current Karma system would penalize a player for griefing another player this hard, but your system does not account for that. Therefor streamsnipers that are very prevelant on arsha will become prevelant on all servers. Even if swapping resets the timer, there are many reasons a player may not want to swap servers. They might not even be grinding at the time the attacks happen.
Finally the biggest problem of your proposal is the devs themselves. The devs have shown consistently that they have very strong visions of how the game is supposed to be and changes that go against their visions are rare. This is most notable in class balance(Shai for instance is never going to get a skill designed around her 1v1 ability, even if I ask really really nicely D;). Because of their strong views around Karma, your solution is going to be a very hard sell. Karma to the devs is a resource and this resource is to stop you from ruining the game for other players without penalties. Your system allows for a good amount of this. Also the devs value a new player's experience, and your system actively says that the new player's experience matters less than the veteran's. It is going to be very hard to ever convince them this should be the case regardless of the reality.
------------------------------------------------
So what should we do instead? I think these are the most reasonable Karma changes you could realistically push to the devs:
*No mob feeding. Just remove it. If you were damaged by a player, and that player has the combat flag, just make death to mobs count as their kill with no karma loss.
*-500k degrades. Losing enhancement on items is a very steep penalty for red players. However this most commonly preys on new players rather than permareds like me. If a player does not understand how the Karma system works, they might not understand you can lose enhancement level on gear when you die. My simple proposal is have this only be a possibility for people under -500k Karma. This simply targets this penalty at people like me, while still a low risk due to crystal protection.
*Your proposal for flagging green/guild protected players that buff allies in combat.
D; sorry for long reply
@Remminia in situation 1, no one turns red for the Altercation, resulting in potentially billions of silver lost.
In situation 2, if player combat detection is enabled, the mob feed results in no loss to the player. He spawns node or town, and saves potentially billions of silver.
In situation 3, this currently exists right now, except the person grinding cannot adequately defend themselves. If they allow the other person to flag on them repeatedly, the situation is no different than it is right now. If they decide to opt-in for the first strike advantage for flagging, they will go negative and potentially lose billions of silver. The recommended system prevents that.
Situation 4 exists in the current system, only it does not even require person C. The fact that it doesn't require person C at all means that instances of this are likely to reduce substantially.
In all versions if this, the proposed system is superior to the existing system.
@Zeroden Two of my issues are not addressed by this response.
I pointed to possible solutions that I feel are viable changes to the system. Why would my few Karma changes be worse than your diminishing system?
And again this does not seem viable to push for, as the devs clearly have a vision for this system that diminishing Karma kills goes against.
D;
For anyone that's worried about someone getting focused killed for a hour. They aren't forced to stay there and get killed lol.
Idk how possible it is with BDO's spaghetti code, but if you could have the penalty per server it would work out well. Ie, if you swap server you lose your penalty vs the player killing you, but if you swap back to the original server before the hours over your still debuffed.
Only other options I could think of is like:
- A Zone mechanic. Where flagging penalties greaten or lessen based on what grind spots your at. This way you could duke it out in hex but get punished for killing noobs at sulpher mine.
- Or a gear system, where can only flag on people within X gear range of yourself.
I have had people follow me around. I literally was doing horse training. Then I went to killing Bison. Then I went to Sheep. The same person kept following me around targeting me. This is a griefers wet dream.
One thing you forget since this is role-playing game, pa literally thinks killing someone in bdo is role-playing of is killing someone in real world
This would benefit a player that wanted to grief other players too, so I don't think it will work
The current system also does that, is the issue, but the way it does it can cost you billions in crystals.
Love it 👍🏻
\o/
👍
It wont work because they have to consider bullying before they can even modify the karma system. Don't know how it is on pc but on console, people can get very toxic bullying people they know full well they out gear and will say its fair. The best way to deal with it in my opinion (and this might not sit well with the people who like to pvp) Is to remove the Karma system on normal servers and create purely pve servers for the people who don't want to experience pvp. They'll also have to come up with a solution so that players can comfortably grind on these pve servers without worrying about player interference. No one will go for this of course because it would basically limit pvp interactions and create dead pvp servers. Karma bombing sucks yeh, but getting bullied in a game you’re suppose to be enjoying sucks more. This is the player bases fault to be honest and unless players can come to an agreement and draw the line where it needs to be drawn, nothing will change. Stick to Arsha if you don't want to worry about losing karma. Thats what the servers for after all.
Gg like 👍
Terrible idea. This would allow a single player or group of players to target and harass others indefinitely. Only a malicious individual could come up with this and see it as a positive. Karma system sucks but it's there to protect us from abusive players.
Groups of players can do that right now with little or no repercussions. Player combat detection will eliminate the mob-feeding toxicity from it, and treat it like an ordinary PvP death rather than a loss of Crystals or Exp. Could a player get camped out of a spot? Yes, in both circumstances it can happen right now, but one does not result in players who are defending themselves going red & losing their crystals.
@@Zeroden except that's the risk you take when engaging in forced PvP, losing crystals and going red. If you're defending your spot you won't go red, and if you're that worried about your crystals there's V and esc+esc. Really, the only thing they need to change is instant flagging so grab classes can't just run up to you for free and force a V. They're not interested in griefing multiple players, 99% of them want their preferred grind zone/spot. Nobody goes around killing multiple players multiple times on non Arsha servers. If they do, they're in an extreme minority. People care a lot less about losing crystals, save for a few exceptionally rare ones, than you lead on. And exp loss can be prevented entirely by elion's tears, nobody cares about exp loss.
current karma system is fine what your proposing allows a single player to target someone without any downside for a hour
If the person stays there and refuses to leave, I can agree that's true. The current system forces you to leave, though. That's also not ideal.
@@Zeroden the current system doesnt force anyone to do anything. it just doesnt work. but that doesnt mean it forces you. if you dont kill the player, you dont need to go.you can both grind the same spot less effectively.
I strongly disagree about dfs. If you refuse dfs, it is you that is the griefer, not the person grinding over you, by virtue of this being a pvp based game. If someone wants your spot and you don't want to fight for it but you still want to keep it, that's griefing.
This system addresses that so it's unnecessary. Personally, I never genuinely DFS. I ask people how long they have, and wait it out.
@@Zeroden Yeah and that's a choice you make. However, this game is still supposed to be about pvp. If I want to take your spot and I beat you, the spot should be mine, without an option for you to not only not care, but also be able to punish me for playing the game as it is supposed to.
@YberDC I know, and we agree on this, that's what deminishing returns adresses. You don't need to DFS and can't be karma griefed for refusing one. You can still die and lose the spot.
@@Zeroden Personally I'd like something more extreme. Karma should be lost by the person who is being killed too, inversely proportional to the method you proposed, but more severe, so that the person being killed turns red sooner and loses his crystals, xp and gear. Only something like this would stop blatant karma abuse.
@@YberDC what would stop me from killing strangers and making them go red in that karma system? It sounds like everybody is being punished for my actions except me.
pk'er/griefer outlaw complaining the law exists, he just wants to ruin everybody's day and increase own ego
dislike
This is a griefers/harassers wet dream. No thanks.
A more entertaining video would have been what happened to you right before you got off the game and made this video. Lol
Not sure what you mean. This was a reshoot of something I discussed live. I don't think I did anything of consequence yesterday other than train horses. 🤔
@@Zeroden 🤡
@@TheMrNickP A more entertaining video would have been finding who asked 💀💀💀
@@pixiedandruff224 aw look at the simp👆
@@TheMrNickP you legit make no sense.