I'm in the timing chain club, if you don't have to deal with this issue in a very long time or maybe never in your ownership time that's a budget friendly solution.
What I can say about timing chains is that they are fantastic if they're properly designed. So many engines that eat the guides even with proper maintenance, making for an extremely costly repair.
My biggest gripe with it is that is way too difficult to find out if it’s an interference engine or not when shopping around for cars. On a badly maintained car with a timing belt I would just lose all interest in it if it has an interference engine out of fear that it’ll destroy itself at any moment when the belt slips.
Usually non-interference engines suffer in terms of efficiency. That said, some of the (what are now older... ~15 years 😨) Hyundai engines had belts, were non-interference, and were decent for the time. But man, the number of Aveo that destroyed themselves with premature belt breakage...
@@Hamachingo basically if it’s made within the past 10 years it’s an interference engine. For efficiency’s sake, I don’t think any manufacturers are making non-interference engines anymore.
Well… my 06’ Toyota Corolla has 290k miles on it with the original chain and have had zero issues with my timing. I’m sure reliability of a chain is different between manufacturers, but there’s a reason most Toyotas produced today have chains
I’ve thought about this debate a lot and I used to be 100% in the timing chain camp. I thought belts were crap and that belt failure and subsequent engine damage was a frequent occurrence. A few years ago I bought an 07 TL-S and did a timing belt job as it had 150,000 miles on it and was due. It was the original belt that was still perfectly fine well after its scheduled maintenance should have been done. That changed my perspective on timing belts as I had thought of them as flimsy and ready to grenade at any second. Then on the other hand I started watching a lot of FordTechMakuloco videos on timing jobs for the 5.4 ford v8. The timing related failures on that engine are so bad that it took away that image I had of timing chains being “bullet-proof” and lasting forever. And as Eric pointed out, timing chains are a lot harder to service and because it’s not a regularly scheduled item, they generally require many more components to be removed than a timing belt job requires. I will say that a timing chain is the only way to go for a pushrod engine as they are so short and stretching isn’t nearly as big of a concern. I guess I wrote a lot to say that timing chains aren’t indestructible and timing belts are more durable and reliable than you might think.
100% agree. 154,000 miles on a 2001 civic ex when I did the timing belt and pump. Belt looked just a slight bit smaller than they new one, you know worn but not worn out. Had no issues just one of those things. 50k later still running great. Gonna replace the factory clutch pack and some other goodies this summer.
Oil change interval dictates the life of a chain. They are the last of the oil shearing actions, now that roller lifters are the norm. Keep the oil fresh, & your chain will last.
I changed the timing belt on my Alfa Romeo GT diesel. The interval is every 4 years or 40.000 Miles. I replaced the whole package which is: timing belt, water pump, timing ideler (roller), timing belt tensioner, aux belt, aux tensioner, aux roller. +coolant +alternator bearings (this is not in the interval but I accidentally found out that they were out). It's the most satisfying feeling you know you replaced everything that needs to be replaced and enjoy driving the car! I think the issue with "chain people" is they forget they need to change the water pump (often driven on aux belts), aux belt, aux tensioner etc - because they think it "needs no chain service". Good video Eric, cheers from Europe! ;)
I think both are excellent as long as each are implemented correctly. Timing belts should be relatively easy to change so need to be accessible. Timing chains need high quality guides and tensioners as these are most often the weak links in the system.
Amen! BMW needs to go sit in the corner for their timing chain designs. And their rod bearing designs. And their crank hub designs. And their vanos hub designs...
@@bikeman1x11 Yes, but they also had a less than 2 foot timing chain going from the crank to an in-block cam versus a very long chain with guides and tensioners to accommodate overhead cams. I personally prefer pushrod engines because they almost never have timing issues, but they are limited when it comes to emissions and VVT/VVL to get more bang for your buck so to speak.
@@bikeman1x11 When they went to fiber sprockets in 70s and early 80s they regularly failed. I've had both. An easy to change belt (not driving any ancillaries) is the way to go. I could change the belt on my turbo 2.3 Ford in a short afternoon. A chain with failed tensioners is a PIA.
So my '89 Toyota pickup 22RE with 278,000 miles has a chain, my '99 Camry 4-cylinder has a belt, and my '06 Camry 4-cylinder with VVT (variable valve timing) has a chain. I was curious why Toyota would switch back to chains, considering the points about maintenance and upkeep brought up in this video, so I Googled the idea. One of the results from that search was a video from Scotty Kilmer discussing that exact idea. You can go find Scotty's video on your own, but the key element in modern engines is getting the best of everything involving performance and emissions in the same engine package, hence the variable valve timing. The problem with belts and VVT is that belts stretch and wear much faster than chains, so belt driven VVT engines have performance and emissions issues much much sooner than chain driven engines. Certainly changing the belts sets the timing back to spec, but you will have many belt changes before your chain-driven engine gets mechanically far enough out of time to fail an emissions test or have a degradation in performance. Oh, and the service interval to maintain proper timing for emissions has nothing to do with the service life of the belt. My '99 Camry has a belt, and a NON-interference engine, so run that belt till it breaks. (Not really!) It'll pass an emissions test just before that belt breaks, because there isn't enough change in the valve timing to change the engine emissions and performance values. It's a simpler engine.
This video is perfect "timing" because one of my Civics is due for a timing belt and I just ordered the parts about an hour before you uploaded this video.
just wanted to say thank you for everything eric. You have always been my instructor in my journey in automotive repair. Your guidance will be missed. Enjoy your vacation good sir.
I have both timing belt in Acura TL and chain in Acura RDX . Like you said keep up on service intervals ,and don't run the crap out of them they will run for a long time. Great video Eric. Also buy OEM parts when you can.
IMO the belt vs chain thing goes back to the idea of the old reliable & DIY serviceability (aka push rod engines). People hear "Chain" now, and their brain triggers to Grandpa's 1968 Ford F100 that's still running with the original chain in it, or the time Dad's 1975 Chevy needed a chain & they did it in the garage in under 2 hours with a set of Craftsman tools. But it's NOT the same anymore. IMO if car makers would've given just 2 more inches of room in an engine bay, belts would've never fell out of favor, because they are actually easier to change than chains....... just harder to get to than the timing chains that were still in use at the time. Kinda like "In Tank Fuel Pumps", everybody hated them until car makers started to put access holes in the cars, so you don't have to drop the tanks anymore. What do I prefer? Well I'm one of those guys that puts a gear drive in a push rod V8 so I get the raw mechanical "sound" of the early 50's & 40's.
Some belts are good, some chains are bad. But for the average person having a chain means less cost for a longer time. It's also sometimes just as expensive/difficult to change the belt.
@@zachm7916 A chain can cause similar damage. If the tensioner fails or if the guide breaks, the chain can easily jump time and valves can kiss the pistons. If a tensioner fails or the chain "lengthens" itself and it rattles long enough in its housing, the metal shards of that housing can cause internal wear and damage.
Replacing a timing belt here in Canada from the Honda/Acura dealer for a V6 is over $2000. About $1200 from a private mechanic. Over time that costs will add us. Timing chain is the way to go.
Both my vehicles are chain driven. It happened to be the vehicles I was looking to own and worked out that way. I personally don't care, but sure appreciate the lower maintenance factor. As a past mechanic, I can say that a stretched chain typically can mean some kind of major work is required as things wear over time. When people ask me about chains or belts, I simply tell them something similar to what you said about more maintenance vs less. One thing I do think about when buying a used car on a budget, is that the purchaser does not need to worry about the last time the belt was replaced, when the motor is chain driven. That doesn't mean it is bulletproof, but can help someone tight on cash.
I was always told that a belt tends to be a quieter running engine vs a chain, but also it's always a good idea to at least look at the chain as often as you would a belt if you like your car. Those also who say you don't need to really do any maintenance to a chain are usually the ones who forget or have family members that'll take that info and roll with it and have a good car ruined at 250k miles because something with the chain went bad.
I Do Cars regularly tears down engines, most seem to have timing chains, and there is almost always a chain or guide, or tensioner problem encountered. I’d say your advice regarding good preventive maintenance is the key to long engine life.
chains are stretching up and can make a noise and jump over a teeth or two if they are stretched too much. As well, i seen chains do make timing a bit off, so, engine doed not idles smooth.
They are both flawed but atleast belts are honest, "change me or else". Chains act like your best friend untill your engine is full of metal shaving from a loose timing chain. Or if your 20/22r person they will wear through the timing cover and mix oil and water.
I've had both. Chains last longer before replacement is needed but once high mileage is incurred, a timing belt is usually easier to replace. Long timing chains have been problematic in many brands.
Regular maintenance, I don't care what you say regular maintenance does not work on a VW / Audi . You could pamper those cars to death and they will still squeeze the shit out of your balls. I've had both an Audi A4 and a VW VR6 and I've had both timing chains destroy themselves and that's not because of a lack of maintenance on my part, it was a failed component because of a bad engineered part. I'm surprised nobody mentioned interference and non-interference because as long as it's a non-interference both of those types belts or chain can destroy themselves and it wouldn't even matter cuz nothing will happen to the engine.
I agree with Eric. I drive a 2006 Honda Accord with a timing chain. I too, firmly believe, with regular oil changes, getting the fresh oil in on a normal schedule, you can prolong the performance life of a chain. I have maintained my car with very regular oil changes. The car has given me 328,200 miles to this point. I think both types of timing engineering are excellent. Each comes with its own set of maintenance practices. If we respect them, they can give us plenty of engine performance life.
I don’t like the long chain setups with V engines. The crank to cam long chain and if dual overhead, then a another chain from cam to cam. So much area for slop to accumulate and just things to go wrong. Pushrod Vs with the short chain are my favorite.
Honda's typically use belts for weight reduction/ gas mileage. That bieng said I have heard horror stories about certain Ford engines with chain issues. Gears are the most reliable. But expensive and heavy. Can't gain without giving something up. Great video.
My first car was a vauxhall corsa 1.2 petrol. The timing chain went slack which is a common fault for this model and it ended up cost me an absolute fortune to fix. Personally I now prefer timing belts as its easy to visually check them and service if required. But clearly the best possible timing system is timing gears. I owned a Honda vfr750 which had timing gears. The noise alone of the cogs whiring was 1 of the best features of the bike. Kinda sounded like there was a supercharger fitted to the bike. HRC engineering at its finest 👌
Timming belt if put over too tight can create a load on the crank bearing and crank shaft leading to crank shaft bends or cracks... OverTightening will let to this damage.. Nicely put...
I used to be very reluctant to tackle a timing belt replacement-but with the wealth of knowledge/examples on TH-cam (looking at you, ETCG!) I did a complete R&R with water pump on a J-series Honda 3.5 V6 in a Saturn Vue Redline. Was almost paranoid verifying and re-verifying all timing marks...but due diligence meant that the engine fired with no problems. If you consider yourself even "okay" with wrenchwork, it's doable. Pay attention to the task at hand, educate yourself, and get dirty!
European interference cars: timing belt. So many faulty chain designs. Japanese interference cars: chain. Ideal scenario: belt-driven non-interference engine with serpentine belt running the water pump.
i've come across engines that had the wp driven by the serpentine belt but the timing belt was in the way of removing it, so it still had to be removed/replaced at the same time.. if my memory serves me wel it was a mazda
Yes, having a non interference belt engine is great. However, from what I can see, that puts a huge limit on how much valve lift and how much compression an engine can have. The original Toyota 1MZ-FE engine was a non-interference belt engine. However, when they added VVT, that made it an interference engine. What I find incredibly sucky is that the Nissan VG30ET had 7.8:1 compression, but was still and interference engine. The VG30DETT had 8.5:1 compression and was also interference. Turbo engines without VVT tend to have mild cams, and low compression, but Nissan still made those into interference engines. Yes, some timing belt engines require the WP to be removed even if the pump is not belt driven. I had to do that to a Toyota Tercel. That engine was known as the 3E/3EE engine.
The 2.2L in my old 84 Dodge Aries was a belt-driven non-interference engine. Water pump was externally driven as well. Was sitting at a light one day and the engine just shut off. Hit the key and whirrrrrrrrrrr...no compression whatsoever.
I've had all three timing systems. A belt on a Honda Accord that I replaced myself it was time consuming but doable. I've had a few timing chain engines that I serviced one the nylon gear broke on the cam luckily it didn't damage anything. Another one is a twin cam with over 3 hundred thousand miles on it and it still runs great and I had a Honda VFR with gears so I really don't have any preference. Your channel is excellent thank you for sharing
I think it comes to exactly what you said. Maintain your vehicle. Doesn’t matter if it’s a chain or a belt if you’re not maintaining the vehicle you’re looking at a problem.
Well said. Both have benefits and possible issues over the other. Like anything else, do research on what you're buying and decide what is best for you and/or what you're able or willing to live with.
Excellent choice of a RARE subject! Said with all due respect, IMHO you should have said something about interference and non interference engines (less catastrophic threat if the belt breaks).
I've had both belt and chain engines. Eric, your right! Maintenance is the key to it all! I'm currently in the chain camp by pure lazyness. It's easier to do an oil and filter change than a belt. I've owned and worked on some tiny cars meaning no space to work and no skin on your knuckles when your done. On one I was forced to drop the engine!!
Timing chain and it's not even close. Stronger, reliable, and as long as you keep up with oil changes, it'll last forever. Timing belts are just cost-saving measures, and things go horribly wrong when they shread apart.
Thanks Eric. My take away from this video - love your car! My 'daily' has a timing chain, and my 'fun' car has a timing belt. I love 'em both. Oh, and I like that my fun car has a non-interference engine.
Great points! This is what I have been saying for years. A properly designed and well maintained system is much more important than whether it has a belt or chain as either can be designed very well or very poorly and both will fail without proper maintenance. I don't mind changing my D series powered Civic's timing belt every 5 or so years (which it's due for now), but it's also nice to not have to worry about remembering to change my K24 swapped Civic's timing belt.
I’m in the same boat. Original owner of ‘03 civic em2 D17a1. Bought an ‘07 accord k24 5 speed a few years back. That car is so solid and smooth compared to the civic
I love having a chain. My old 2000 Civic blew the motor because the timing belt failed. I am sure someone else swapped the motor and is still driving it.
LOL, neither rubberband nor bicycle chain for me! *TIMING GEARS* [EDIT: seriously, I think the waterpump should not ever be driven by a timing chain. The pump will begin leaking long before the chain should require replacement. I give preference to chain with external belt driven waterpump over belt. Chain driving waterpump is nfg imao.]
My buddy had a VW with a chain that failed hilariously, broke the sprocket right off of the camshaft. I have no idea what he did that caused this to happen. My 04 TL keeps on truckin' but I have to do this particular service every 80k or so (just to be safe.) I am not a mechanic, but was able to figure it out using your videos. I still kind of feel like the chain is a better option, assuming you take care of the vehicle and it wasn't designed poorly from the start. That VW, IDK man... My buddy is kind of an idiot though, so there's no telling what was going on maintenance-wise or what flaws already existed in the design. I believe it was an 04' Passat or similar era. Your video series on the TL has saved me a ton of money, appreciate that!
My "favorite" would be those poorly-designed (I'm looking at you, GM) timing chain sets with the aluminum cam gear capped with plastic teeth. I can't count how many of those I've replaced, then having to go into the oil pan to remove the plastic shrapnel. Oh yeah, fun times.
@@workingcountry1776 Even many pre bailout GM cars were built that way. They wanted their luxury divisions to have quieter engines, that's why they had nylon teeth on the cam gear. It was common with other companies as well. Sometimes they used fiberglass teeth, but the result was much the same. I never once saw a replacement timing set that used those stupid nylon or fiberglass teeth. Nobody needs that crap, and it never did that much to quiet the engine anyway.
Many cars besides GM (coughAudicough) have plastic coatings on the chain guides and tensioners which similarly disintegrate and can clog up the oil pickup screen.
It really depends on the design of the engine. I have a 2012 Ford Explorer with the 3.5L V6, and the infamous timing-chain-driven water pump that fails and leaks coolant into the engine oil. In fact, I'm having said timing-chain and water-pump replaced this week because at 140K miles it has finally started to leak coolant into the engine oil. 😞 I can't help but think that it would be an easier (and cheaper) repair if it had had a timing belt instead of a timing chain -- since belts are *designed* to be replaced, and chains are *not.* Having said that -- engineers that design their engines to have timing belts could do a *FAR* better job at making those timing belts easier to replace! There are far too many timing belts that are *supposed* to have been designed to be replaced, yet take 10 to 15 damn hours of labor to do it. (I'm looking at you, Volkswagen!) What the hell were they thinking with that?! So really, it all depends on the design. I think engineers should be forced to repair their engines themselves -- *THAT* would go a long way towards making designs better for both timing chains and timing belts!
Chrysler on the 2.7 added a port that goes through the block and out of the thermostat housing to keep coolant from entering the engine it pretty much made that engine more reliable and last longer I have 146,000 on mine currently and people need to maintain these cars or it will go bad
1.2L CBZA Audi engine says high. You have to replace timing chains on these things every 50-60k miles because the chain wears out and starts rattling. Not only you pay 2 times the amount for chain replacement comapred to belt on similar engine but you also have to do it 2 times as often.
@@beekeeper8474 the old water pump had a plate in between the pump and the engine which had problems. The new design had a better gasket, no plate and a weep hole that would leak out by the thermostat housing on the driver side of the engine.
I recently had a timing belt fail with 30k miles on it on my 09 odyssey, causing severe damage within both heads. Ive been in my feelings and talking almost non stop crap about timing belts since. Thanks for helping me be more "reasonable"
Was the engine actually damaged, or assumed? Did you try a new belt before condemning the engine? If not, you might have missed out. th-cam.com/video/enPNb8dxCZk/w-d-xo.html
@@wiimaster2847 I second the counterfeit belt kit theory. Even ETCG1 was duped by the counterfeit parts from Amazon/eBay. I've seen many of them failing. Not only does it cost the owner a ton of money it helps create the ignorant comments as in the one above by @Bikeman
Most of the intake valves were bent, one of the rocker arm bearing blew apart and damage to lobes of both cam shafts. Yep the kit I ordered off ebay was a scam, everything came in labeled as honda parts, but now after the failure i noticed both bearings were dkf bearings instead of koyo and now the belt has no markings on it at all. I ordered reman cylinder heads from a company, and they heads the sent me had several significant issues, feel free to look at my post here with pictures and videos. I'm still talking with them before i throw their name in the trash. www.odyclub.com/threads/remanufactured-cylinder-heads-major-issues.367022/
I have been a technician since 1986 and seen both chains and belts fail and cause bent valves and other damage. Non interference engines are the best belt driven engines because most people don't do oil changes much less a timing belt. Dual overhead cam V6 engines are lots of fun either way. I was a GM tech during the chain failure wave on Equinox and Traverse engines under warranty. If the chain and components are made correctly I prefer them. A belt is great on 4 cylinder non interference engines.
A good chain is fantastic. They're rock solid on the Honda R18 engine in my Civic, but a bad chain (VW, BMW, Mini etc) can be an absolute disaster and cost you huge amounts once they start rattling. Changing the belt on my old 1.8T was less than £400. Getting a chain replaced on a newer TSI/TFSI is easily 2x that.
I remember the old ford pinto engine here in the uk, the camshaft oil spray bar would block and the cams would nip the followers and spit them out! I found several engines with spat out followers and metal shavings everywhere You had to remove the head to replace the knackered camshaft as it came out from the rear, the belt was a doddle to change and you could always leave the cover off i did lots of these as a young man in the 80s, one thing ive noticed with modern belts is the materials they're made from seem so much tougher an more durable, i just changed a belt on a Citroen Berlingo with the 1.6 hdi turbo diesel engine with 90,000 miles on it 12 yrs old and it was in excellent condition
I had a 2000 toyota sienna equipped with a timing belt. I replaced it twice in the time I owned it. It had over 340,000 kilometers on it and would have gone even further had it not been for an unfortunate encounter with an elk. I then acquired 2009 sienna equipped with a timing chain. Even though I kept up with regular oil changes, etc., it only lasted just over 320,000 km. when it was found that the timing chain had stretched. The cost of replacing the chain was so prohibitively high it was deemed that replacing the whole engine would be a cheaper option. As the vehicle was already 11 years old, I decided to replace the vehicle.
I had to change the water pump on my 2003 Neon. It had lasted 301,000km / 187,000 miles. Changing the timing belt was an obvious job to do while I was in there. There were no signs of wear on the belt to speak of. The recommended service interval for changing the belt is 120,000 km / 75,000 miles. It isn't a job I'd want to do again any time soon. Space is TIGHT in there.
By golly there is always the exception. American made V8 engines back in the day had no tensioner. The crank gear and cam gear had to be installed with the chain simultaneously. Chains do stretch though. A double roller as it was called was the next step before a gear drive. As always very informative. Thanks Eric
Either works for me, belts or chains. I replace both if needed. Our 3 vehicles have chains and did one replacement already on a '93 Toyota pickup. Did several Honda Accord and Civic belts along with water pumps. Chains are more labor intensive as I had to drop the front diff to drop the oil pan to remove the plastic chain guide pieces.
My Mazda problem you described was solved was solved by using the same plugs and wires that came with the car (Japanese OEM). I used Bosch once and it didn't fix my misfire. The Mazda mechanic said it had to the with higher resistance of the Bosch plug. He switched them out to NGK or Denso and everything was fine.
I have one of each 3.5 L Ridgeline with a timing belt and a Honda fit with a timing chain. both systems work good. I have change the timing belt and water pump and idler pulleys once on my Ridgeline. What I like about the timing belt is it brings everything back to specs from day one when you change it, and engine runs quieter than a chain. If the chain ever does go on my Honda fit, it’ll probably be cheaper just to put another engine in it for the price of the parts to fix it and my time.
Timing chain for me. All five of the vehicles I've owned, had timing chains. My mom gave me her old 1977 AMC Concord, back in 1990. I only had it six months before the timing chain broke. (She didn't maintain the vehicle) We currently have an 07 Toyota Camry, with 143K+ miles and 01 DGC EX, with 308K+ miles. Both running strong with a lot of life left in them. I replaced the timing chain and gear, on our DGC, back in 2015 at 171K miles, because it was noisy. (Confirmed it was stretched) That job was pretty easy, but time consuming. (Parts was less than $100) As long as you do regular oil changes and use good oil, a timing chain will last the life of the vehicle.
I've had vehicles with timing belts and others with timing chains. As far as I'm concerned, there really is nothing to gripe about one compared to the other. They each have their place. Last year I replaced the chain, cam and crank gears on my 2000 5.7 Dodge engine at 167K miles. The water pump and thermostat, upper and lower radiator hoses were all replaced at the same time and the coolant system flushed. A friend helped with some of the labor, so my bottom dollar was less than had it been taken to a shop. The old chain definitely had developed some slack. It was obvious. The gears were actually fine and showed no evidence of wear, but we had new ones so put them in. When it was all done the vehicle honestly didn't perform any differently. Was I upset; no. I knew the work we did would last the remaining life of the truck. Years ago my family had to Ford Escorts, an '86 and an '87. When they got about 95K miles on them the belts were replaced. We knew the risk we were taking ignoring replacement of these belts. Both cars were sold at about 135K miles and were running great. These vehicles were considered toss or throw away cars by Ford, but with proper upkeep were great cars. I routinely got over 40 mpg on interstate driving.
I generally prefer chains, but the caveat I think of is as Eric said: there are still wear items within the chain system. Those guides will absolutely wear out one day and it's not always easy to check them. And you don't want to run out of oil in a chain driven engine. It really is a pick your poison deal. Take care of the belt and related components every few years or rely on a chain you rarely see. I prefer the chain poison, but I won't scoff at a belt.
My favorite is definitely timing chain as you don't have as many exterior oil seals (like cam seals). I don't mind the extra noise. Just seems simpler to me somehow.
I like having an interval to change because that's like the definitive "replace" time. For a chain I feel there's too much iffy involved. And yes, I'm a torque-to-spec guy
I agree. And assuming you use quality parts, once the timing belt and its components are replaced, you know it's good to go until it's due again and don't have to think about it for a while.
I've been a timing belt fan ever since I started my career in this trade😉 Timing belts are always fun to change (at-least for those who like'em) the process is different depending on the displacement & drivetrain of the vehicle, an engine with timing belt, is a lot quiter & smoother when maintained/tuned properly compared to the one with a timing chain👍 Honestly timing chains also have a life & they make a bad rattling noise when loose or when their guides go bad & this too happens within 150k kilometers, I've never seen them go beyond this mileage, they will have some type of a ticking sound even with regular oil changes Honestly, we all know the best & most reliable Honda Accord's & Lexus, both came with engines that had timing belts😉 Thanks for starting this debate Eric, Stay Safe👍
My question has always been why did the public think the imports (belts by in large) were reliable but domestics(chains by in large) were unreliable--but after 150k-200k miles the total cost were the same (multiple belts versus one transmission rebuild).
I'll try and keep this short. Domestic vehicles often used nylon coatings on timing gears to keep them quiet during operation. When the nylon failed, so did the chain. Also, as the chain wears over time, engine timing, and often ignition timing, are effected and performance decreases. Conversely changing out a timing belt at a given interval sets everything back up the way it was when it was new and mechanical timing is restored every time you replace the belt.
@@ETCG1 I wasn't referring to timing sets (to which I know GM used non oil resistant nylon as opposed to FoMoCo) but the publics perceived reliability of imports. When at the end of the day similar money was being put into them, imports in routine maintenance (timing sets and valve adjustments) and domestics on major wear items (transmission rebuild).
I had a blast doing the timing belt and water pump on my old tundra with the 4.7 V8. It comes down to manufacturers having a “lower maintenance cost.” If that’s a real thing. I like both.
I replaced the timing belt (kit, water pump, thermostat, antifreeze, serpentine belt, tensioner, hoses, oil cooler hoses too) in the wife’s 07 sequoia’s 4.7L and even though it wasn’t hard but I had to laugh when I had to unbolt and push aside the alternator, power steering pump & of course even the A/C compressor (it didn’t want to be left out) all to get to the timing belt. All in all I feel more in tune with my engines the father in I go.
@@Glocktard Yeah I remember doing the exact same thing! If I remember right the AC compressor has a bolt that goes through into the water pump. It’s pretty easy to do just a bit time consuming.
Had a 2003 toyota v6 with a belt .best engine ever.. so quiet too... Yes a little expensive to do the belts and water pump.. but only needs to be done every 100.000 ml...
2:08 "Because you dont necessarily wanna get engine oil on your timing belt" Ford may want to have a word with you on that subject. They had the "bright" idea to let the TB run in a very special engine oil so that it makes less noise. They do that in their Eco Boost engines, afaik. Causes a lot of broken engines because people may not use the very special oil to top it of or garages may not use the proper one when doing an oil change. Heck, I even know about a case where a Ford dealer did an oil change on such an engine, used the wrong oil and caused engine damage.
You are correct, its the same for diesel, in the UK my 06 galaxy has the 1.8 tdci engine, they called it lynx because ford were desperate to keep it as part of the PUMA project with PSA (1.6 tdci and 2.0 tdci are PSA engines and are timing belt). Mine because its an 06 is a timing chain to join crank to the high pressure diesel pump, then a timing belt joining high pressure pump too the camshaft, bonkers design if you ask me, sure one chain / belt would do. Anyway from oct 07 the 1.8 tdci came with an upper timing belt and a lower timing belt in oil for "depollution and noise reasons". However they are well known to break prematurely despite ford saying they have the same service interval as the chain... theres even an aftermarket for lower belt in oil to chain conversions 😅. Lets be honest ford is fooling no one, the belt in oil is cheaper to manufacture and if it breaks earlier then you might buy a new ford 😅
@@markhart3432 honestly, if i have an engine which breaks early due to bad design, i aint gonna buy another from the same company. but yeah, ford is or at least was quite bonkers... i never heard anyone complain about noise from a timing belt... chain on the other hand...
My car has a timing chain and one on the reasons why I bought that model. Also I have machines I service that are past 50 years, some with timing chain, spring and hydraulic tensioners and teflon guides that are hardly worn. The chains are the only things that show no signs of wear. In contrast, those that are belt driven get broken often along with bearings and worn pulleys because of the tension involved. Its true that once you service on time it makes no difference really. The problem is that you are sure your chain is getting lubricated but you cant even guess the state of your timing belt especially with heat involved.
my 1977 mustang v6 had timing gears. I found out the top gear was plastic when I floored the gas and popped it into drive trying to do a burn out 🤣 lots of tiny plastic teeth in the oil pan...
I had a 79 v6 and had a friend who was working on it decide to see "what it could do"...next thing I know he's calling me up telling me that in addition to the tune up he was doing I needed a new timing gear set!!
I'm going to fence sit on this one. I have both a chain driven and a belt driven engine. On one hand, yes the chains tend to last longer, but for me who has had to replace my chains, guides and tensioner -- the cost outweighed the longevity, especially in terms of a belt driven engine. I just got done doing a water pump, chain, guides and tensioner on my 2013 Ford Taurus, where the Water pump sits internal with the engine. When all was said and done, it cost me a little over $2800 to do everything. In that same breath, I bought a 2004 Volvo V70 which also needed a timing service done. I never prior knew how to do it and I wanted a "dummy" vehicle to try my hand at a first time timing job. For my first ever timing service, it took all of about 3 hours to do (half of which was making 100% certain I got everything correct). It was surprisingly simple and straight forward and best yet, it cost me a whole $200 for the whole set, which also came with a serpentine belt too. To have someone else do it, it would of cost approximately $600, still far cheaper than the aforementioned. I expected to grenade the Volvo engine with my lack of understanding, but I succeeded in doing it and it felt fantastic and honestly, it's a awesome little wagon, I love it. All in all, I think I'd rather spend $200 every 100k miles than spend almost $3000 every 200k. But I can see the positives in both, so to each their own.
Ahh, the 3.5/3.7 Ford. I did one a while back. I literally just did the water pump since was leaking. $100 in parts and 4 hours is what it took me. Timing chain/guides were "visually" good so they remained.
I agree completely. Also, for emphasis, the worst of all worlds is where the manufacturer uses a timing chain and also drives maintenance items like water pumps off the chain. By doing this, the manufacturer makes timing chain replacement an expensive maintenance item.
@@mph5896 Yeah, the pump was leaking externally on mine. Not bad, but from what I read it basically means imminent danger or failure. To do just the pump alone was $2300, but the mechanic basically said might as well do it all since they were already in there. I concurred hesitantly, but that's a fairly steep slope. There were cheaper alternatives, as in cheaper mechanics and quotes, but I wanted a mechanic that has done these before, so I would rather the job done well and cost a bit more than do it incorrectly and have to do it again.
Yes, this is an absolute nightmare. It was one reason the Chrysler 2.7 V6 was such junk. This would happen on Nissan VQ engines, but typically they had 180,000 miles or more, so the car was barely worth it anyway. Years ago, DIY-ers would buy a 1995 to 2004 Maxima for cheap because they needed to replace the water pump, timing chain, and chain hardware. The leak would always destroy the RH control arm bushings, so just refilling the reservior occasionally wasn't an option. A DIY-er would buy such a car cheap, replace the water pump, timing chain stuff, and control arm, then drive for many miles after that. Those kinds of Maximas didn't cause much trouble anywhere else.
after I have done some research on both . and that's why I own V6 Toyota Venza . the only one thing it will take care of the timing chain. is change oil regularly. never to over due on oil change . and that one reason alone can cost timing chain replacement.. correct me if I'm wrong .. thank you for the video ..
I much prefer a chain. Only ever had to replace 1 and that was becomes the prior owner kept letting the oil get low (Saturns burn oil, just how it is). Usually if you keep the oil good, chains can easily outlive the care if implemented right.
Good video, very informative! I'm ok with either really. I prefer working on a belt vs. a chain though just because I don't have to worry about sealing the timing cover back up again and then waiting for the gasket maker dry before the engine can start. Thanks for the content!
Agree with the comments that say if you're going to do a belt...it needs to accessed easily and be somewhat serviceable. We all know the best design. Oil submerged belts.
I'm for neither. I like both and they have their benefits. Belts require more maintenance and most likely $ and chains are more robust but cost big if you do have any issue and very difficult to replace.
my 1991 GMC 1500 with 460 km on it ,same motor 5.7 same chain , oil changed every 5000 km ,its sloppy ,time to change it thanks for the reminder E T C G . used 10/30 oil from the start.
I've dealt with the aftermath of both outright failing. Chain tensioners wearing to the point of jumped timing and shrapnel in the oil pan on a 5.4 triton. And a belt that broke at highway speed from lack of regular replacement on an f22a1. I've replaced chains in small and big block chevy's, ls v8's. A Ford 351 and the 5.4 dilemma. Belts in Honda j, k and f series. And one Subaru. I believe they both have their place and their own weaknesses. Never seen either fail under normal driving conditions, with good routine maintenance. But... I do tend to prefer a timing chain🙂
Recently worked on a customer's '01 camry with the 2.2L. 225k on the clock. Couldn't believe it still had the OEM timing belt that snapped and boy was it dry rotted and cracks every which way surprised it lasted this long. It's a non interference engine, so I put a component kit on it and off it went! Like nothing ever was wrong with it. Dang, I need to find one of these cars!
I replaced the timing belt on my 2.3 ‘93 ranger a few years ago. The belt was very cracked and possibly original at 180k. Along with the belt I replaced the water pump, radiator, timing belt tensioner and a squeaky pulley. It took a weekend and cost around $200. It was reassuring getting all those new parts on the truck. All that same maintenance might be more easily neglected with a timing chain as there’s less of a reason to replace unless broken. Then again, I’m sure plenty of people never change their belts and let them snap.
Wow, That digital confection looks very fancy 😋. I don’t mind timing belt driven engines at all, I believe the V6 Honda are still being driven by timing belt along with the straight 6 cylinder 3.0L duramax diesel found in half ton GM trucks.
I have owned four cars that used belts, A Volvo 240, Volvo 850, Geo Metro and Kia Sportage, the 240 and the Geo were very easy to replace the belt and I was able to do it in under an hour. The 850 having a transverse mounted 5 cyl motor was way to hard for me to do, the Kia was also very hard to do and in addition the second belt, (a factory part not a cheap replacement part) failed 20,000 miles before it was due for replacement. My last car was a Hyundai Sonada with the 2.4 liter 4 cyl. I drove that car over 345,000 miles with the original timing chain and today my son still drives it. I am a firm believer staying on top of oil changes and using a good quality oil allowed me to keep that car for as long as I did.
My 05 scion tc has 167k miles and still runs great. Have no idea how many miles are on my '68 coronet 440, my '69 gto, or either of my '70 super bees but none of my latter cars have a hydraulic tensioners. Ya just slip the chain and gears on simultaneously. I'm happy with what I have. They are easy to change as well. I prefer chains but to each their own.
Well, I have new shape ford transit with 2.0 ecoblue diesel engine. It has belt inside the engine lubricated by the oil - same as chain was before.They use special oil in these engines which will not eat the rubber.They do this to reduce noise and weight.The service interval for these belts are 150,000 miles.
My dad had a 2000 Mitsubishi Space Star (van type car sold in Europe) with a timing belt. On the Autobahn it made a weird noise at a certain rpm range. When the spark plug cables failed, the shop told us the timing was way off and that the timing belt should have been replaced 30000km ago.... The noise was the belt hitting the plastic cover.
I’m really old school, I replaced the chain on my Cleveland V8 with gears……….. more reliable than a chain, and no stretching, but noisy, and expensive. No doubt there are other issues with gears too. I realise that this isn’t a readily available option for most modern street cars.
It depends on the design of the engine. On old school American OHV V8s, which used a simple and very short timing chain, under a cover behind the water pump, with no guides or tensioners, they work great (like the bottom picture @ 0.32) I do recommend replacing them every 75K miles or so, because they do start to show some wear around that mileage. I consider that to be routine maintenance on those engines. Taking your time, it can be done in about 90 minutes. If you have a PLASTIC cam sprocket, definitely replace it with a steel one. However, on late model engines with double overhead cams, super long timing chains, tensioners and guides that are not readily accessible without disassembling the engine, an external belt is BY FAR the best. Those long flimsy chains (they look almost like a bicycle chain) the tensioners and PLASTIC guides also wear out at around 75K miles, and it is a VERY expensive job to replace them. Sometimes more than the engine is even worth. I have a 1972 Pinto Squire wagon that I have owned for 21 years. I have replaced the engine once. It has a SOHC 2.0L inline four, with a timing belt. Originally the belt had a cover with several bolts in it. When I replaced the engine, I left the cover off. It really serves no purpose. This belt is out in the open where it can be inspected, and it takes about half an hour to replace it. It does have a tensioner, and it is also on the outside and super easy to get to. I keep wondering why modern engines can't be this simple. This has been the most reliable and easy to work on car I've ever owned. Engineers these days seem to do their absolute best to make things as complicated and hard to work on as possible. On any old school small block Chevy, the simple timing chain can be replaced with a gear drive, which has twice the life of the chain. I have one on the engine in my 1982 S-10 drag race truck. It does have a whine to it, but i like that. Sounds a lot like a blower whine.
2 things I've noticed from working on my own cars for decades. 1. Timing chains give you a warning when they're getting worn out. They rattle a bit at startup until the tensioner's oil pressure builds up. You hear nothing from timing belts. 2. It seems to me like replacing a timing chain is easier than replacing a timing belt. At least on the cars I've owned. (Toyotas, GMs, and Fords.) Of course, others' experiences may be different...
Just going to say that in a long ( ish ) motoring life with a variety of cars , I have suffered only 1 failure of a Timing Set and that was a BELT ( on a Toyota ). It wasn't an interference engine so there was no catastrophic damage , just inconvenience . The mileage was low but the car wasn't often used so the belt was old . Never had a hassle with chains .
Just changed my timing belt. 200,000 km. (125,000 miles.) Scheduled change. Cost $200 for the kit including the water pump, took a few hours. A dollar for every thousand km. Doesn't seem that big a deal to me. I've had belt, chain and gear driven cams. The only one that ever failed was a gear. That did major damage, bent valves, bent pushrods, broken rockers. The sump had to come off too, to clean out all the gear fibre from the oil pump pick-up. My current car is a DOHC diesel with belt driven camshafts, but interestingly there are rockers too. Because it's diesel the valves are near vertical, and in the event they hit the piston the valves don't bend, the rockers break. Which makes for a comparatively easy repair, since the head doesn't have to come off.
had a Chevy HHR timing chain tensioner fail and found that was common with that engine bent and broken valves was the out come - had a PT Cruiser timing belt break NO bent valves or damaged engine replaced broken belt back on the road again - Change my thinking what is a good engine!
Objectively, both have there pros and cons. In or houses hold me and my dad have owned several cars with timing belts and timing chains. Or daily drivers always had timing belts and we checked the service history of it before buying it. Always replaced the belts on any car we owned once the mileage or age interval was due. Did it ourselves (always checked how involved the jobs where first), bought the OEM kit. For someone that does their own maintenance it's an amazing piece of mind that the belt is fresh and replaced with a quality part, including water pump, tensioner. But for non-car people buying a car with timing belt motor is risky. Replace it just in case or walk away from the car if it's unknown when the last service was. Or replace it asap after purchase. I agree with the timing chain fan boys that it is mostly less to worry about. But, you have to keep in mind that the thick, overbuild timing chain from the past (like for example on my 70's classic mini) aren't the standard for the past 10 years or so. Modern chains are lightweight, thin, and have often fragile guides (Like on BMW's R51 Mini's) that could start rattling sooner than you think (especially high mileage ones). And replacing a timing chain on a modern car often means engine out, and doing some seals (like the front crankshaft seal) while your in there. Moral of the story. If you buy cars often and don't keep them long term (flipping them, our just like changing them frequently) buy something with a chain or belt that still has some live left before its interval. But if you want to keep it long term buying a car with fresh timing belt, or replacing it when necessary after purchase, that's the most safevest bet.
Definitely a chain fan here although I wouldn't thumb my nose at a car with a belt driven cam if it checked most of my boxes otherwise. I watched a friend and his wife go through two Ford Escorts many years ago. Ford recommended a routine changing of the cam belts at 60k miles. Neither car made it that far. Both had belt failures between 50 and 55k miles. Fortunately, the engines were not interference engines so no harm done and they were close to home both times so getting the car towed to a mechanic wasn't a big deal but it didn't encourage a lot of trust.
I have a timing chain on my 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4.7L V8 VIN-N Selec-Trac. Never had to replace, 224K miles currently. Have had to replace: Starter, Alternator, Tie Rods, Control Arms, Sway Bar Links/Bushings but those are regular maintenance components at my milage. Very robust engine and transmission though. The power steering rack has issues if you dont use MS-5931 equivalent. Ask me how i know.
Chains are cool. Still get them inspected at 100k. Replace if wanted. I am replacing mine at 100k to 150k with factory updated parts. 2014 3.7 v6 mustang.
They both have their pros and cons. Pick the vehicle you want and maintain it appropriately. Got it. I do prefer the belt only because that is what my truck has.
I’d probably have to side with a timing chain on this. My 05 mini has 122k miles on it. I replaced the head gasket December 2020 and considered replacing the timing chain while I was at it until I opened up the engine to find it looked to be in good shape along with the guides. But I’m going to anticipate replacing it here soon as a preventative measure. I can’t get financing on a vehicle at a reasonable APR at the moment.
I'm in the timing chain club, if you don't have to deal with this issue in a very long time or maybe never in your ownership time that's a budget friendly solution.
This. I've seen cars pass through two generations, and not once mind the chain.
Chain wins every time
more upfront cost…
What I can say about timing chains is that they are fantastic if they're properly designed. So many engines that eat the guides even with proper maintenance, making for an extremely costly repair.
I am in the same club. In a well-designed, well-maintained engine, a chain should last forever.
A discussion of the pros/cons of interference engines would make a great follow up video. Keep up the great work.
My biggest gripe with it is that is way too difficult to find out if it’s an interference engine or not when shopping around for cars.
On a badly maintained car with a timing belt I would just lose all interest in it if it has an interference engine out of fear that it’ll destroy itself at any moment when the belt slips.
Usually non-interference engines suffer in terms of efficiency. That said, some of the (what are now older... ~15 years 😨) Hyundai engines had belts, were non-interference, and were decent for the time.
But man, the number of Aveo that destroyed themselves with premature belt breakage...
Yeah...my 06 Subaru outback didn't like it when the belt broke.....pretty spendy fix. But I'm sure my 01 Camry won't care if it happens lol.
Manufacturers should indicate whether the vehicle you're buying has a interference or non interference engine. Also timing belt or chain.
@@Hamachingo basically if it’s made within the past 10 years it’s an interference engine. For efficiency’s sake, I don’t think any manufacturers are making non-interference engines anymore.
Well… my 06’ Toyota Corolla has 290k miles on it with the original chain and have had zero issues with my timing. I’m sure reliability of a chain is different between manufacturers, but there’s a reason most Toyotas produced today have chains
My commonly serviced Celica at 205k sounds like a sewing machine I'm sure because of the chain stretch. Kinda wish it had a belt
@@cory45x but it's just as hard to change the belt and the chain takes longer to go
@@cory45x more likely needs a valve adjustment.
03 Corolla 248k here, same chain no issues yet.
The 1ZZ motor is bullet proof
I’ve thought about this debate a lot and I used to be 100% in the timing chain camp. I thought belts were crap and that belt failure and subsequent engine damage was a frequent occurrence. A few years ago I bought an 07 TL-S and did a timing belt job as it had 150,000 miles on it and was due. It was the original belt that was still perfectly fine well after its scheduled maintenance should have been done. That changed my perspective on timing belts as I had thought of them as flimsy and ready to grenade at any second. Then on the other hand I started watching a lot of FordTechMakuloco videos on timing jobs for the 5.4 ford v8. The timing related failures on that engine are so bad that it took away that image I had of timing chains being “bullet-proof” and lasting forever. And as Eric pointed out, timing chains are a lot harder to service and because it’s not a regularly scheduled item, they generally require many more components to be removed than a timing belt job requires. I will say that a timing chain is the only way to go for a pushrod engine as they are so short and stretching isn’t nearly as big of a concern. I guess I wrote a lot to say that timing chains aren’t indestructible and timing belts are more durable and reliable than you might think.
100% agree. 154,000 miles on a 2001 civic ex when I did the timing belt and pump. Belt looked just a slight bit smaller than they new one, you know worn but not worn out. Had no issues just one of those things. 50k later still running great. Gonna replace the factory clutch pack and some other goodies this summer.
I changed the belt on my Mitsubishi 380 (Galant ) after 105km, belt looked perfect but tensioner was shot😅.
Oil change interval dictates the life of a chain. They are the last of the oil shearing actions, now that roller lifters are the norm. Keep the oil fresh, & your chain will last.
I will stick with timing chains my silverado 94 4.3 is hitting 250k miles with original timing chain
I changed the timing belt on my Alfa Romeo GT diesel. The interval is every 4 years or 40.000 Miles.
I replaced the whole package which is: timing belt, water pump, timing ideler (roller), timing belt tensioner, aux belt, aux tensioner, aux roller. +coolant +alternator bearings (this is not in the interval but I accidentally found out that they were out). It's the most satisfying feeling you know you replaced everything that needs to be replaced and enjoy driving the car!
I think the issue with "chain people" is they forget they need to change the water pump (often driven on aux belts), aux belt, aux tensioner etc - because they think it "needs no chain service". Good video Eric, cheers from Europe! ;)
I think both are excellent as long as each are implemented correctly. Timing belts should be relatively easy to change so need to be accessible. Timing chains need high quality guides and tensioners as these are most often the weak links in the system.
Amen! BMW needs to go sit in the corner for their timing chain designs. And their rod bearing designs. And their crank hub designs. And their vanos hub designs...
classic v8s rarely had timing chain issues except high HP racing uses
@@bikeman1x11 Yes, but they also had a less than 2 foot timing chain going from the crank to an in-block cam versus a very long chain with guides and tensioners to accommodate overhead cams. I personally prefer pushrod engines because they almost never have timing issues, but they are limited when it comes to emissions and VVT/VVL to get more bang for your buck so to speak.
@@bikeman1x11 When they went to fiber sprockets in 70s and early 80s they regularly failed. I've had both. An easy to change belt (not driving any ancillaries) is the way to go. I could change the belt on my turbo 2.3 Ford in a short afternoon. A chain with failed tensioners is a PIA.
@@cgmoog problem is feaw are easty to change- and no one should have to look forward - near $1k bills for maintenance of a $%@%@ belt
So my '89 Toyota pickup 22RE with 278,000 miles has a chain, my '99 Camry 4-cylinder has a belt, and my '06 Camry 4-cylinder with VVT (variable valve timing) has a chain. I was curious why Toyota would switch back to chains, considering the points about maintenance and upkeep brought up in this video, so I Googled the idea. One of the results from that search was a video from Scotty Kilmer discussing that exact idea. You can go find Scotty's video on your own, but the key element in modern engines is getting the best of everything involving performance and emissions in the same engine package, hence the variable valve timing. The problem with belts and VVT is that belts stretch and wear much faster than chains, so belt driven VVT engines have performance and emissions issues much much sooner than chain driven engines. Certainly changing the belts sets the timing back to spec, but you will have many belt changes before your chain-driven engine gets mechanically far enough out of time to fail an emissions test or have a degradation in performance. Oh, and the service interval to maintain proper timing for emissions has nothing to do with the service life of the belt. My '99 Camry has a belt, and a NON-interference engine, so run that belt till it breaks. (Not really!) It'll pass an emissions test just before that belt breaks, because there isn't enough change in the valve timing to change the engine emissions and performance values. It's a simpler engine.
This video is perfect "timing" because one of my Civics is due for a timing belt and I just ordered the parts about an hour before you uploaded this video.
just wanted to say thank you for everything eric. You have always been my instructor in my journey in automotive repair. Your guidance will be missed. Enjoy your vacation good sir.
I have both timing belt in Acura TL and chain in Acura RDX . Like you said keep up on service intervals ,and don't run the crap out of them they will run for a long time. Great video Eric. Also buy OEM parts when you can.
IMO the belt vs chain thing goes back to the idea of the old reliable & DIY serviceability (aka push rod engines). People hear "Chain" now, and their brain triggers to Grandpa's 1968 Ford F100 that's still running with the original chain in it, or the time Dad's 1975 Chevy needed a chain & they did it in the garage in under 2 hours with a set of Craftsman tools. But it's NOT the same anymore. IMO if car makers would've given just 2 more inches of room in an engine bay, belts would've never fell out of favor, because they are actually easier to change than chains....... just harder to get to than the timing chains that were still in use at the time. Kinda like "In Tank Fuel Pumps", everybody hated them until car makers started to put access holes in the cars, so you don't have to drop the tanks anymore.
What do I prefer? Well I'm one of those guys that puts a gear drive in a push rod V8 so I get the raw mechanical "sound" of the early 50's & 40's.
Some belts are good, some chains are bad. But for the average person having a chain means less cost for a longer time.
It's also sometimes just as expensive/difficult to change the belt.
When I was a new driver my dad always said replace the belts and water pump after 100k miles. I wonder if there is similar wisdom for the chain guides
Plus chains tend to fail less catastrophically. They will rattle and throw timing codes.
@@zachm7916 A chain can cause similar damage. If the tensioner fails or if the guide breaks, the chain can easily jump time and valves can kiss the pistons.
If a tensioner fails or the chain "lengthens" itself and it rattles long enough in its housing, the metal shards of that housing can cause internal wear and damage.
@@blockbertus Id agree that can happen, but it seems to me to be more common on engines that are designed poorly in the first place.
@@blockbertus True, but I know from experience that most customers will just crank up the radio and ignore the check engine light.
Replacing a timing belt here in Canada from the Honda/Acura dealer for a V6 is over $2000. About $1200 from a private mechanic. Over time that costs will add us. Timing chain is the way to go.
You could do it yourself for about $300. th-cam.com/video/lDSoQD1H0zY/w-d-xo.html
Both my vehicles are chain driven. It happened to be the vehicles I was looking to own and worked out that way. I personally don't care, but sure appreciate the lower maintenance factor. As a past mechanic, I can say that a stretched chain typically can mean some kind of major work is required as things wear over time. When people ask me about chains or belts, I simply tell them something similar to what you said about more maintenance vs less. One thing I do think about when buying a used car on a budget, is that the purchaser does not need to worry about the last time the belt was replaced, when the motor is chain driven. That doesn't mean it is bulletproof, but can help someone tight on cash.
I was always told that a belt tends to be a quieter running engine vs a chain, but also it's always a good idea to at least look at the chain as often as you would a belt if you like your car.
Those also who say you don't need to really do any maintenance to a chain are usually the ones who forget or have family members that'll take that info and roll with it and have a good car ruined at 250k miles because something with the chain went bad.
I Do Cars regularly tears down engines, most seem to have timing chains, and there is almost always a chain or guide, or tensioner problem encountered. I’d say your advice regarding good preventive maintenance is the key to long engine life.
chains are stretching up and can make a noise and jump over a teeth or two if they are stretched too much. As well, i seen chains do make timing a bit off, so, engine doed not idles smooth.
They are both flawed but atleast belts are honest, "change me or else". Chains act like your best friend untill your engine is full of metal shaving from a loose timing chain. Or if your 20/22r person they will wear through the timing cover and mix oil and water.
I've had both. Chains last longer before replacement is needed but once high mileage is incurred, a timing belt is usually easier to replace.
Long timing chains have been problematic in many brands.
@@grantsnell6782 Who said VAG?
Regular maintenance, I don't care what you say regular maintenance does not work on a VW / Audi . You could pamper those cars to death and they will still squeeze the shit out of your balls. I've had both an Audi A4 and a VW VR6 and I've had both timing chains destroy themselves and that's not because of a lack of maintenance on my part, it was a failed component because of a bad engineered part.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned interference and non-interference because as long as it's a non-interference both of those types belts or chain can destroy themselves and it wouldn't even matter cuz nothing will happen to the engine.
I agree with Eric. I drive a 2006 Honda Accord with a timing chain. I too, firmly believe, with regular oil changes, getting the fresh oil in on a normal schedule, you can prolong the performance life of a chain. I have maintained my car with very regular oil changes. The car has given me 328,200 miles to this point. I think both types of timing engineering are excellent. Each comes with its own set of maintenance practices. If we respect them, they can give us plenty of engine performance life.
I don’t like the long chain setups with V engines. The crank to cam long chain and if dual overhead, then a another chain from cam to cam. So much area for slop to accumulate and just things to go wrong. Pushrod Vs with the short chain are my favorite.
This might explain why when Nissan built their first V6, they chose to use a belt. They had no problems using a chain in their inline sixes.
First time viewer...I like the simple, unbiased, straightforward and logical discussion/explanation. Thanks for this video!
Honda's typically use belts for weight reduction/ gas mileage. That bieng said I have heard horror stories about certain Ford engines with chain issues. Gears are the most reliable. But expensive and heavy. Can't gain without giving something up. Great video.
My first car was a vauxhall corsa 1.2 petrol. The timing chain went slack which is a common fault for this model and it ended up cost me an absolute fortune to fix. Personally I now prefer timing belts as its easy to visually check them and service if required. But clearly the best possible timing system is timing gears. I owned a Honda vfr750 which had timing gears. The noise alone of the cogs whiring was 1 of the best features of the bike. Kinda sounded like there was a supercharger fitted to the bike. HRC engineering at its finest 👌
The sound of gear driven Honda bikes reminded me of the Triumph 3 cylinder whistle
@@bikersquest the triumphs sound very unique. My dad had a 2007 1050 speed triple gorgeous bike. 1 of the best road bikes ever made. 🇬🇧
Timming belt if put over too tight can create a load on the crank bearing and crank shaft leading to crank shaft bends or cracks... OverTightening will let to this damage.. Nicely put...
I used to be very reluctant to tackle a timing belt replacement-but with the wealth of knowledge/examples on TH-cam (looking at you, ETCG!) I did a complete R&R with water pump on a J-series Honda 3.5 V6 in a Saturn Vue Redline. Was almost paranoid verifying and re-verifying all timing marks...but due diligence meant that the engine fired with no problems.
If you consider yourself even "okay" with wrenchwork, it's doable. Pay attention to the task at hand, educate yourself, and get dirty!
in line 6 cylinders 292 GM , 300 Ford in line six ,gear driven , I've never changed one in forty years and there still around .
European interference cars: timing belt. So many faulty chain designs. Japanese interference cars: chain. Ideal scenario: belt-driven non-interference engine with serpentine belt running the water pump.
i've come across engines that had the wp driven by the serpentine belt but the timing belt was in the way of removing it, so it still had to be removed/replaced at the same time.. if my memory serves me wel it was a mazda
Yes, having a non interference belt engine is great. However, from what I can see, that puts a huge limit on how much valve lift and how much compression an engine can have. The original Toyota 1MZ-FE engine was a non-interference belt engine. However, when they added VVT, that made it an interference engine.
What I find incredibly sucky is that the Nissan VG30ET had 7.8:1 compression, but was still and interference engine. The VG30DETT had 8.5:1 compression and was also interference. Turbo engines without VVT tend to have mild cams, and low compression, but Nissan still made those into interference engines.
Yes, some timing belt engines require the WP to be removed even if the pump is not belt driven. I had to do that to a Toyota Tercel. That engine was known as the 3E/3EE engine.
I agree with you 100 percent. I wonder why the Japanese engines are interference engines. I have been driving hondas for over 30 years.
The 2.2L in my old 84 Dodge Aries was a belt-driven non-interference engine. Water pump was externally driven as well. Was sitting at a light one day and the engine just shut off. Hit the key and whirrrrrrrrrrr...no compression whatsoever.
I've had all three timing systems. A belt on a Honda Accord that I replaced myself it was time consuming but doable. I've had a few timing chain engines that I serviced one the nylon gear broke on the cam luckily it didn't damage anything. Another one is a twin cam with over 3 hundred thousand miles on it and it still runs great and I had a Honda VFR with gears so I really don't have any preference. Your channel is excellent thank you for sharing
I think it comes to exactly what you said. Maintain your vehicle. Doesn’t matter if it’s a chain or a belt if you’re not maintaining the vehicle you’re looking at a problem.
Well said. Both have benefits and possible issues over the other. Like anything else, do research on what you're buying and decide what is best for you and/or what you're able or willing to live with.
Excellent choice of a RARE subject! Said with all due respect, IMHO you should have said something about interference and non interference engines (less catastrophic threat if the belt breaks).
I am very glad that you proved me wrong And you were able to get your J32 back up and running
belts for OHC V engines, chains for in-line or pushrod engines
Great video brother. I may be referring some of my customers to this video
I've had both belt and chain engines. Eric, your right! Maintenance is the key to it all! I'm currently in the chain camp by pure lazyness. It's easier to do an oil and filter change than a belt. I've owned and worked on some tiny cars meaning no space to work and no skin on your knuckles when your done. On one I was forced to drop the engine!!
I change my oil at 50 percent engine life. Oil is cheap timing chains are expensive.
Timing chain and it's not even close. Stronger, reliable, and as long as you keep up with oil changes, it'll last forever. Timing belts are just cost-saving measures, and things go horribly wrong when they shread apart.
Thanks Eric.
My take away from this video - love your car!
My 'daily' has a timing chain, and my 'fun' car has a timing belt.
I love 'em both.
Oh, and I like that my fun car has a non-interference engine.
Good to see the TL in the background, eager to hear what happened there. Based on the context of the video, maybe a timing belt???
Great points! This is what I have been saying for years. A properly designed and well maintained system is much more important than whether it has a belt or chain as either can be designed very well or very poorly and both will fail without proper maintenance. I don't mind changing my D series powered Civic's timing belt every 5 or so years (which it's due for now), but it's also nice to not have to worry about remembering to change my K24 swapped Civic's timing belt.
I’m in the same boat. Original owner of ‘03 civic em2 D17a1. Bought an ‘07 accord k24 5 speed a few years back. That car is so solid and smooth compared to the civic
I love having a chain. My old 2000 Civic blew the motor because the timing belt failed. I am sure someone else swapped the motor and is still driving it.
LOL, neither rubberband nor bicycle chain for me! *TIMING GEARS*
[EDIT: seriously, I think the waterpump should not ever be driven by a timing chain. The pump will begin leaking long before the chain should require replacement. I give preference to chain with external belt driven waterpump over belt. Chain driving waterpump is nfg imao.]
So Ford i6 from 1996 and older or industrial diesels....
My buddy had a VW with a chain that failed hilariously, broke the sprocket right off of the camshaft. I have no idea what he did that caused this to happen. My 04 TL keeps on truckin' but I have to do this particular service every 80k or so (just to be safe.) I am not a mechanic, but was able to figure it out using your videos. I still kind of feel like the chain is a better option, assuming you take care of the vehicle and it wasn't designed poorly from the start. That VW, IDK man... My buddy is kind of an idiot though, so there's no telling what was going on maintenance-wise or what flaws already existed in the design. I believe it was an 04' Passat or similar era. Your video series on the TL has saved me a ton of money, appreciate that!
My "favorite" would be those poorly-designed (I'm looking at you, GM) timing chain sets with the aluminum cam gear capped with plastic teeth. I can't count how many of those I've replaced, then having to go into the oil pan to remove the plastic shrapnel. Oh yeah, fun times.
Post bailout GM build quality for you
@@workingcountry1776 Even many pre bailout GM cars were built that way. They wanted their luxury divisions to have quieter engines, that's why they had nylon teeth on the cam gear. It was common with other companies as well. Sometimes they used fiberglass teeth, but the result was much the same.
I never once saw a replacement timing set that used those stupid nylon or fiberglass teeth. Nobody needs that crap, and it never did that much to quiet the engine anyway.
@@skylinefever those nylon coated gears seemed the height of stupidity to me too. Silly method to quiet things down.
watching the timing mark jump between 4 and 12 while trying to tune er up fun times
Many cars besides GM (coughAudicough) have plastic coatings on the chain guides and tensioners which similarly disintegrate and can clog up the oil pickup screen.
It really depends on the design of the engine. I have a 2012 Ford Explorer with the 3.5L V6, and the infamous timing-chain-driven water pump that fails and leaks coolant into the engine oil. In fact, I'm having said timing-chain and water-pump replaced this week because at 140K miles it has finally started to leak coolant into the engine oil. 😞
I can't help but think that it would be an easier (and cheaper) repair if it had had a timing belt instead of a timing chain -- since belts are *designed* to be replaced, and chains are *not.*
Having said that -- engineers that design their engines to have timing belts could do a *FAR* better job at making those timing belts easier to replace! There are far too many timing belts that are *supposed* to have been designed to be replaced, yet take 10 to 15 damn hours of labor to do it. (I'm looking at you, Volkswagen!) What the hell were they thinking with that?!
So really, it all depends on the design. I think engineers should be forced to repair their engines themselves -- *THAT* would go a long way towards making designs better for both timing chains and timing belts!
Chrysler on the 2.7 added a port that goes through the block and out of the thermostat housing to keep coolant from entering the engine it pretty much made that engine more reliable and last longer I have 146,000 on mine currently and people need to maintain these cars or it will go bad
I totally agree
1.2L CBZA Audi engine says high. You have to replace timing chains on these things every 50-60k miles because the chain wears out and starts rattling. Not only you pay 2 times the amount for chain replacement comapred to belt on similar engine but you also have to do it 2 times as often.
So the timing chain didn't fail it was the water pump
@@beekeeper8474 the old water pump had a plate in between the pump and the engine which had problems. The new design had a better gasket, no plate and a weep hole that would leak out by the thermostat housing on the driver side of the engine.
I recently had a timing belt fail with 30k miles on it on my 09 odyssey, causing severe damage within both heads. Ive been in my feelings and talking almost non stop crap about timing belts since. Thanks for helping me be more "reasonable"
Was the engine actually damaged, or assumed? Did you try a new belt before condemning the engine? If not, you might have missed out. th-cam.com/video/enPNb8dxCZk/w-d-xo.html
You probably had a counterfeit belt kit. Quite common actually
they suck and are just a way to get repair jobs- otherwise most good modern enginers need little service until 100k
@@wiimaster2847 I second the counterfeit belt kit theory. Even ETCG1 was duped by the counterfeit parts from Amazon/eBay. I've seen many of them failing. Not only does it cost the owner a ton of money it helps create the ignorant comments as in the one above by @Bikeman
Most of the intake valves were bent, one of the rocker arm bearing blew apart and damage to lobes of both cam shafts.
Yep the kit I ordered off ebay was a scam, everything came in labeled as honda parts, but now after the failure i noticed both bearings were dkf bearings instead of koyo and now the belt has no markings on it at all.
I ordered reman cylinder heads from a company, and they heads the sent me had several significant issues, feel free to look at my post here with pictures and videos. I'm still talking with them before i throw their name in the trash.
www.odyclub.com/threads/remanufactured-cylinder-heads-major-issues.367022/
I have been a technician since 1986 and seen both chains and belts fail and cause bent valves and other damage. Non interference engines are the best belt driven engines because most people don't do oil changes much less a timing belt. Dual overhead cam V6 engines are lots of fun either way. I was a GM tech during the chain failure wave on Equinox and Traverse engines under warranty. If the chain and components are made correctly I prefer them. A belt is great on 4 cylinder non interference engines.
A good chain is fantastic. They're rock solid on the Honda R18 engine in my Civic, but a bad chain (VW, BMW, Mini etc) can be an absolute disaster and cost you huge amounts once they start rattling. Changing the belt on my old 1.8T was less than £400. Getting a chain replaced on a newer TSI/TFSI is easily 2x that.
I remember the old ford pinto engine here in the uk, the camshaft oil spray bar would block and the cams would nip the followers and spit them out! I found several engines with spat out followers and metal shavings everywhere
You had to remove the head to replace the knackered camshaft as it came out from the rear, the belt was a doddle to change and you could always leave the cover off i did lots of these as a young man in the 80s, one thing ive noticed with modern belts is the materials they're made from seem so much tougher an more durable, i just changed a belt on a Citroen Berlingo with the 1.6 hdi turbo diesel engine with 90,000 miles on it 12 yrs old and it was in excellent condition
I had a 2000 toyota sienna equipped with a timing belt. I replaced it twice in the time I owned it. It had over 340,000 kilometers on it and would have gone even further had it not been for an unfortunate encounter with an elk. I then acquired 2009 sienna equipped with a timing chain. Even though I kept up with regular oil changes, etc., it only lasted just over 320,000 km. when it was found that the timing chain had stretched. The cost of replacing the chain was so prohibitively high it was deemed that replacing the whole engine would be a cheaper option. As the vehicle was already 11 years old, I decided to replace the vehicle.
I had to change the water pump on my 2003 Neon. It had lasted 301,000km / 187,000 miles. Changing the timing belt was an obvious job to do while I was in there. There were no signs of wear on the belt to speak of. The recommended service interval for changing the belt is 120,000 km / 75,000 miles. It isn't a job I'd want to do again any time soon. Space is TIGHT in there.
By golly there is always the exception. American made V8 engines back in the day had no tensioner. The crank gear and cam gear had to be installed with the chain simultaneously. Chains do stretch though. A double roller as it was called was the next step before a gear drive. As always very informative. Thanks Eric
Either works for me, belts or chains. I replace both if needed. Our 3 vehicles have chains and did one replacement already on a '93 Toyota pickup. Did several Honda Accord and Civic belts along with water pumps. Chains are more labor intensive as I had to drop the front diff to drop the oil pan to remove the plastic chain guide pieces.
My Mazda problem you described was solved was solved by using the same plugs and wires that came with the car (Japanese OEM). I used Bosch once and it didn't fix my misfire. The Mazda mechanic said it had to the with higher resistance of the Bosch plug. He switched them out to NGK or Denso and everything was fine.
I have one of each 3.5 L Ridgeline with a timing belt and a Honda fit with a timing chain. both systems work good. I have change the timing belt and water pump and idler pulleys once on my Ridgeline. What I like about the timing belt is it brings everything back to specs from day one when you change it, and engine runs quieter than a chain. If the chain ever does go on my Honda fit, it’ll probably be cheaper just to put another engine in it for the price of the parts to fix it and my time.
Timing chain for me. All five of the vehicles I've owned, had timing chains. My mom gave me her old 1977 AMC Concord, back in 1990. I only had it six months before the timing chain broke. (She didn't maintain the vehicle)
We currently have an 07 Toyota Camry, with 143K+ miles and 01 DGC EX, with 308K+ miles. Both running strong with a lot of life left in them. I replaced the timing chain and gear, on our DGC, back in 2015 at 171K miles, because it was noisy. (Confirmed it was stretched) That job was pretty easy, but time consuming. (Parts was less than $100)
As long as you do regular oil changes and use good oil, a timing chain will last the life of the vehicle.
I've had vehicles with timing belts and others with timing chains. As far as I'm concerned, there really is nothing to gripe about one compared to the other. They each have their place. Last year I replaced the chain, cam and crank gears on my 2000 5.7 Dodge engine at 167K miles. The water pump and thermostat, upper and lower radiator hoses were all replaced at the same time and the coolant system flushed. A friend helped with some of the labor, so my bottom dollar was less than had it been taken to a shop. The old chain definitely had developed some slack. It was obvious. The gears were actually fine and showed no evidence of wear, but we had new ones so put them in. When it was all done the vehicle honestly didn't perform any differently. Was I upset; no. I knew the work we did would last the remaining life of the truck.
Years ago my family had to Ford Escorts, an '86 and an '87. When they got about 95K miles on them the belts were replaced. We knew the risk we were taking ignoring replacement of these belts. Both cars were sold at about 135K miles and were running great. These vehicles were considered toss or throw away cars by Ford, but with proper upkeep were great cars. I routinely got over 40 mpg on interstate driving.
I generally prefer chains, but the caveat I think of is as Eric said: there are still wear items within the chain system. Those guides will absolutely wear out one day and it's not always easy to check them. And you don't want to run out of oil in a chain driven engine. It really is a pick your poison deal. Take care of the belt and related components every few years or rely on a chain you rarely see. I prefer the chain poison, but I won't scoff at a belt.
My favorite is definitely timing chain as you don't have as many exterior oil seals (like cam seals). I don't mind the extra noise. Just seems simpler to me somehow.
Eric. So happy to find you years ago from the super small shop. You knowledge made smart to a point.
I like having an interval to change because that's like the definitive "replace" time. For a chain I feel there's too much iffy involved.
And yes, I'm a torque-to-spec guy
I agree. And assuming you use quality parts, once the timing belt and its components are replaced, you know it's good to go until it's due again and don't have to think about it for a while.
I've been a timing belt fan ever since I started my career in this trade😉
Timing belts are always fun to change (at-least for those who like'em) the process is different depending on the displacement & drivetrain of the vehicle, an engine with timing belt, is a lot quiter & smoother when maintained/tuned properly compared to the one with a timing chain👍
Honestly timing chains also have a life & they make a bad rattling noise when loose or when their guides go bad & this too happens within 150k kilometers, I've never seen them go beyond this mileage, they will have some type of a ticking sound even with regular oil changes
Honestly, we all know the best & most reliable Honda Accord's & Lexus, both came with engines that had timing belts😉
Thanks for starting this debate Eric, Stay Safe👍
i would never buy a car with a belt
@@Monza62000 I would take any Honda or Toyota with a timing belt over any German car with a chain...
My question has always been why did the public think the imports (belts by in large) were reliable but domestics(chains by in large) were unreliable--but after 150k-200k miles the total cost were the same (multiple belts versus one transmission rebuild).
I'll try and keep this short. Domestic vehicles often used nylon coatings on timing gears to keep them quiet during operation. When the nylon failed, so did the chain. Also, as the chain wears over time, engine timing, and often ignition timing, are effected and performance decreases. Conversely changing out a timing belt at a given interval sets everything back up the way it was when it was new and mechanical timing is restored every time you replace the belt.
@@ETCG1 I wasn't referring to timing sets (to which I know GM used non oil resistant nylon as opposed to FoMoCo) but the publics perceived reliability of imports. When at the end of the day similar money was being put into them, imports in routine maintenance (timing sets and valve adjustments) and domestics on major wear items (transmission rebuild).
I had a blast doing the timing belt and water pump on my old tundra with the 4.7 V8. It comes down to manufacturers having a “lower maintenance cost.”
If that’s a real thing. I like both.
I replaced the timing belt (kit, water pump, thermostat, antifreeze, serpentine belt, tensioner, hoses, oil cooler hoses too) in the wife’s 07 sequoia’s 4.7L and even though it wasn’t hard but I had to laugh when I had to unbolt and push aside the alternator, power steering pump & of course even the A/C compressor (it didn’t want to be left out) all to get to the timing belt.
All in all I feel more in tune with my engines the father in I go.
@@Glocktard Yeah I remember doing the exact same thing! If I remember right the AC compressor has a bolt that goes through into the water pump. It’s pretty easy to do just a bit time consuming.
If I had to make a call between the two, I’d say a timing chain is better because that’s what the LS7 uses and I heard it’s a great motor.
Had a 2003 toyota v6 with a belt .best engine ever.. so quiet too...
Yes a little expensive to do the belts and water pump.. but only needs to be done every 100.000 ml...
2:08 "Because you dont necessarily wanna get engine oil on your timing belt" Ford may want to have a word with you on that subject. They had the "bright" idea to let the TB run in a very special engine oil so that it makes less noise. They do that in their Eco Boost engines, afaik.
Causes a lot of broken engines because people may not use the very special oil to top it of or garages may not use the proper one when doing an oil change. Heck, I even know about a case where a Ford dealer did an oil change on such an engine, used the wrong oil and caused engine damage.
You are correct, its the same for diesel, in the UK my 06 galaxy has the 1.8 tdci engine, they called it lynx because ford were desperate to keep it as part of the PUMA project with PSA (1.6 tdci and 2.0 tdci are PSA engines and are timing belt). Mine because its an 06 is a timing chain to join crank to the high pressure diesel pump, then a timing belt joining high pressure pump too the camshaft, bonkers design if you ask me, sure one chain / belt would do. Anyway from oct 07 the 1.8 tdci came with an upper timing belt and a lower timing belt in oil for "depollution and noise reasons". However they are well known to break prematurely despite ford saying they have the same service interval as the chain... theres even an aftermarket for lower belt in oil to chain conversions 😅. Lets be honest ford is fooling no one, the belt in oil is cheaper to manufacture and if it breaks earlier then you might buy a new ford 😅
@@markhart3432 honestly, if i have an engine which breaks early due to bad design, i aint gonna buy another from the same company.
but yeah, ford is or at least was quite bonkers...
i never heard anyone complain about noise from a timing belt... chain on the other hand...
My car has a timing chain and one on the reasons why I bought that model. Also I have machines I service that are past 50 years, some with timing chain, spring and hydraulic tensioners and teflon guides that are hardly worn. The chains are the only things that show no signs of wear. In contrast, those that are belt driven get broken often along with bearings and worn pulleys because of the tension involved. Its true that once you service on time it makes no difference really. The problem is that you are sure your chain is getting lubricated but you cant even guess the state of your timing belt especially with heat involved.
my 1977 mustang v6 had timing gears. I found out the top gear was plastic when I floored the gas and popped it into drive trying to do a burn out 🤣 lots of tiny plastic teeth in the oil pan...
I had a 79 v6 and had a friend who was working on it decide to see "what it could do"...next thing I know he's calling me up telling me that in addition to the tune up he was doing I needed a new timing gear set!!
I'm going to fence sit on this one. I have both a chain driven and a belt driven engine. On one hand, yes the chains tend to last longer, but for me who has had to replace my chains, guides and tensioner -- the cost outweighed the longevity, especially in terms of a belt driven engine. I just got done doing a water pump, chain, guides and tensioner on my 2013 Ford Taurus, where the Water pump sits internal with the engine. When all was said and done, it cost me a little over $2800 to do everything. In that same breath, I bought a 2004 Volvo V70 which also needed a timing service done. I never prior knew how to do it and I wanted a "dummy" vehicle to try my hand at a first time timing job. For my first ever timing service, it took all of about 3 hours to do (half of which was making 100% certain I got everything correct). It was surprisingly simple and straight forward and best yet, it cost me a whole $200 for the whole set, which also came with a serpentine belt too. To have someone else do it, it would of cost approximately $600, still far cheaper than the aforementioned. I expected to grenade the Volvo engine with my lack of understanding, but I succeeded in doing it and it felt fantastic and honestly, it's a awesome little wagon, I love it. All in all, I think I'd rather spend $200 every 100k miles than spend almost $3000 every 200k. But I can see the positives in both, so to each their own.
Amen. This is where belts shine.
Ahh, the 3.5/3.7 Ford. I did one a while back. I literally just did the water pump since was leaking. $100 in parts and 4 hours is what it took me. Timing chain/guides were "visually" good so they remained.
I agree completely. Also, for emphasis, the worst of all worlds is where the manufacturer uses a timing chain and also drives maintenance items like water pumps off the chain. By doing this, the manufacturer makes timing chain replacement an expensive maintenance item.
@@mph5896 Yeah, the pump was leaking externally on mine. Not bad, but from what I read it basically means imminent danger or failure. To do just the pump alone was $2300, but the mechanic basically said might as well do it all since they were already in there. I concurred hesitantly, but that's a fairly steep slope. There were cheaper alternatives, as in cheaper mechanics and quotes, but I wanted a mechanic that has done these before, so I would rather the job done well and cost a bit more than do it incorrectly and have to do it again.
Other problem with T-chains is when the have the water pump inside the chain cover and the pump goes bad the cost is a lot higher than t-belts.
Yes, this is an absolute nightmare. It was one reason the Chrysler 2.7 V6 was such junk.
This would happen on Nissan VQ engines, but typically they had 180,000 miles or more, so the car was barely worth it anyway. Years ago, DIY-ers would buy a 1995 to 2004 Maxima for cheap because they needed to replace the water pump, timing chain, and chain hardware. The leak would always destroy the RH control arm bushings, so just refilling the reservior occasionally wasn't an option. A DIY-er would buy such a car cheap, replace the water pump, timing chain stuff, and control arm, then drive for many miles after that. Those kinds of Maximas didn't cause much trouble anywhere else.
after I have done some research on both . and that's why I own V6 Toyota Venza . the only one thing it will take care of the timing chain. is change oil regularly. never to over due on oil change . and that one reason alone can cost timing chain replacement.. correct me if I'm wrong .. thank you for the video ..
I've been an auto tech for 19 years. I would take a timing belt engine over a chain engine any day. Preach on brother Eric.
My birthday is tomorrow! Close but thank you Eric!
I much prefer a chain. Only ever had to replace 1 and that was becomes the prior owner kept letting the oil get low (Saturns burn oil, just how it is). Usually if you keep the oil good, chains can easily outlive the care if implemented right.
Good video, very informative! I'm ok with either really. I prefer working on a belt vs. a chain though just because I don't have to worry about sealing the timing cover back up again and then waiting for the gasket maker dry before the engine can start. Thanks for the content!
Agree with the comments that say if you're going to do a belt...it needs to accessed easily and be somewhat serviceable.
We all know the best design. Oil submerged belts.
I'm for neither. I like both and they have their benefits. Belts require more maintenance and most likely $ and chains are more robust but cost big if you do have any issue and very difficult to replace.
my 1991 GMC 1500 with 460 km on it ,same motor 5.7 same chain , oil changed every 5000 km ,its sloppy ,time to change it thanks for the reminder E T C G . used 10/30 oil from the start.
I've dealt with the aftermath of both outright failing. Chain tensioners wearing to the point of jumped timing and shrapnel in the oil pan on a 5.4 triton. And a belt that broke at highway speed from lack of regular replacement on an f22a1. I've replaced chains in small and big block chevy's, ls v8's. A Ford 351 and the 5.4 dilemma. Belts in Honda j, k and f series. And one Subaru. I believe they both have their place and their own weaknesses. Never seen either fail under normal driving conditions, with good routine maintenance. But... I do tend to prefer a timing chain🙂
Recently worked on a customer's '01 camry with the 2.2L. 225k on the clock. Couldn't believe it still had the OEM timing belt that snapped and boy was it dry rotted and cracks every which way surprised it lasted this long. It's a non interference engine, so I put a component kit on it and off it went! Like nothing ever was wrong with it. Dang, I need to find one of these cars!
I replaced the timing belt on my 2.3 ‘93 ranger a few years ago. The belt was very cracked and possibly original at 180k. Along with the belt I replaced the water pump, radiator, timing belt tensioner and a squeaky pulley. It took a weekend and cost around $200.
It was reassuring getting all those new parts on the truck. All that same maintenance might be more easily neglected with a timing chain as there’s less of a reason to replace unless broken. Then again, I’m sure plenty of people never change their belts and let them snap.
Wow, That digital confection looks very fancy 😋.
I don’t mind timing belt driven engines at all, I believe the V6 Honda are still being driven by timing belt along with the straight 6 cylinder 3.0L duramax diesel found in half ton GM trucks.
I have owned four cars that used belts, A Volvo 240, Volvo 850, Geo Metro and Kia Sportage, the 240 and the Geo were very easy to replace the belt and I was able to do it in under an hour. The 850 having a transverse mounted 5 cyl motor was way to hard for me to do, the Kia was also very hard to do and in addition the second belt, (a factory part not a cheap replacement part) failed 20,000 miles before it was due for replacement. My last car was a Hyundai Sonada with the 2.4 liter 4 cyl. I drove that car over 345,000 miles with the original timing chain and today my son still drives it. I am a firm believer staying on top of oil changes and using a good quality oil allowed me to keep that car for as long as I did.
My 05 scion tc has 167k miles and still runs great. Have no idea how many miles are on my '68 coronet 440, my '69 gto, or either of my '70 super bees but none of my latter cars have a hydraulic tensioners. Ya just slip the chain and gears on simultaneously. I'm happy with what I have. They are easy to change as well. I prefer chains but to each their own.
Well, I have new shape ford transit with 2.0 ecoblue diesel engine. It has belt inside the engine lubricated by the oil - same as chain was before.They use special oil in these engines which will not eat the rubber.They do this to reduce noise and weight.The service interval for these belts are 150,000 miles.
Rotary engine!!! NO timing apparatus needed! 😂
Sorry Eric, you said 3 ways, but you forgot about method ZERO: no timing belt or gears!
😆
RX7?
My dad had a 2000 Mitsubishi Space Star (van type car sold in Europe) with a timing belt. On the Autobahn it made a weird noise at a certain rpm range. When the spark plug cables failed, the shop told us the timing was way off and that the timing belt should have been replaced 30000km ago.... The noise was the belt hitting the plastic cover.
I’m really old school, I replaced the chain on my Cleveland V8 with gears……….. more reliable than a chain, and no stretching, but noisy, and expensive. No doubt there are other issues with gears too. I realise that this isn’t a readily available option for most modern street cars.
It depends on the design of the engine. On old school American OHV V8s, which used a simple and very short timing chain, under a cover behind the water pump, with no guides or tensioners, they work great (like the bottom picture @ 0.32) I do recommend replacing them every 75K miles or so, because they do start to show some wear around that mileage. I consider that to be routine maintenance on those engines. Taking your time, it can be done in about 90 minutes. If you have a PLASTIC cam sprocket, definitely replace it with a steel one.
However, on late model engines with double overhead cams, super long timing chains, tensioners and guides that are not readily accessible without disassembling the engine, an external belt is BY FAR the best. Those long flimsy chains (they look almost like a bicycle chain) the tensioners and PLASTIC guides also wear out at around 75K miles, and it is a VERY expensive job to replace them. Sometimes more than the engine is even worth.
I have a 1972 Pinto Squire wagon that I have owned for 21 years. I have replaced the engine once. It has a SOHC 2.0L inline four, with a timing belt. Originally the belt had a cover with several bolts in it. When I replaced the engine, I left the cover off. It really serves no purpose. This belt is out in the open where it can be inspected, and it takes about half an hour to replace it. It does have a tensioner, and it is also on the outside and super easy to get to. I keep wondering why modern engines can't be this simple. This has been the most reliable and easy to work on car I've ever owned. Engineers these days seem to do their absolute best to make things as complicated and hard to work on as possible.
On any old school small block Chevy, the simple timing chain can be replaced with a gear drive, which has twice the life of the chain. I have one on the engine in my 1982 S-10 drag race truck. It does have a whine to it, but i like that. Sounds a lot like a blower whine.
International Harvester gas engines used only two gears with a reverse spinning camshaft. Quiet & bulletproof.
I think that the first domestic auto manufacture to use a timing belt was Pontiac back in 1966 on their Overhead Cam straight 6.
2 things I've noticed from working on my own cars for decades. 1. Timing chains give you a warning when they're getting worn out. They rattle a bit at startup until the tensioner's oil pressure builds up. You hear nothing from timing belts. 2. It seems to me like replacing a timing chain is easier than replacing a timing belt. At least on the cars I've owned. (Toyotas, GMs, and Fords.) Of course, others' experiences may be different...
Just going to say that in a long ( ish ) motoring life with a variety of cars , I have suffered only 1 failure of a Timing Set and that was a BELT ( on a Toyota ). It wasn't an interference engine so there was no catastrophic damage , just inconvenience . The mileage was low but the car wasn't often used so the belt was old . Never had a hassle with chains .
Just changed my timing belt. 200,000 km. (125,000 miles.) Scheduled change.
Cost $200 for the kit including the water pump, took a few hours.
A dollar for every thousand km.
Doesn't seem that big a deal to me.
I've had belt, chain and gear driven cams.
The only one that ever failed was a gear. That did major damage, bent valves, bent pushrods, broken rockers. The sump had to come off too, to clean out all the gear fibre from the oil pump pick-up.
My current car is a DOHC diesel with belt driven camshafts, but interestingly there are rockers too.
Because it's diesel the valves are near vertical, and in the event they hit the piston the valves don't bend, the rockers break. Which makes for a comparatively easy repair, since the head doesn't have to come off.
Very reasonable explanation.😊
had a Chevy HHR timing chain tensioner fail and found that was common with that engine bent and broken valves was the out come - had a PT Cruiser timing belt break NO bent valves or damaged engine replaced broken belt back on the road again - Change my thinking what is a good engine!
Objectively, both have there pros and cons. In or houses hold me and my dad have owned several cars with timing belts and timing chains. Or daily drivers always had timing belts and we checked the service history of it before buying it. Always replaced the belts on any car we owned once the mileage or age interval was due. Did it ourselves (always checked how involved the jobs where first), bought the OEM kit. For someone that does their own maintenance it's an amazing piece of mind that the belt is fresh and replaced with a quality part, including water pump, tensioner. But for non-car people buying a car with timing belt motor is risky. Replace it just in case or walk away from the car if it's unknown when the last service was. Or replace it asap after purchase. I agree with the timing chain fan boys that it is mostly less to worry about. But, you have to keep in mind that the thick, overbuild timing chain from the past (like for example on my 70's classic mini) aren't the standard for the past 10 years or so. Modern chains are lightweight, thin, and have often fragile guides (Like on BMW's R51 Mini's) that could start rattling sooner than you think (especially high mileage ones). And replacing a timing chain on a modern car often means engine out, and doing some seals (like the front crankshaft seal) while your in there. Moral of the story. If you buy cars often and don't keep them long term (flipping them, our just like changing them frequently) buy something with a chain or belt that still has some live left before its interval. But if you want to keep it long term buying a car with fresh timing belt, or replacing it when necessary after purchase, that's the most safevest bet.
Definitely a chain fan here although I wouldn't thumb my nose at a car with a belt driven cam if it checked most of my boxes otherwise. I watched a friend and his wife go through two Ford Escorts many years ago. Ford recommended a routine changing of the cam belts at 60k miles. Neither car made it that far. Both had belt failures between 50 and 55k miles. Fortunately, the engines were not interference engines so no harm done and they were close to home both times so getting the car towed to a mechanic wasn't a big deal but it didn't encourage a lot of trust.
I have a timing chain on my 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4.7L V8 VIN-N Selec-Trac.
Never had to replace, 224K miles currently.
Have had to replace:
Starter, Alternator, Tie Rods, Control Arms, Sway Bar Links/Bushings but those are regular maintenance components at my milage.
Very robust engine and transmission though.
The power steering rack has issues if you dont use MS-5931 equivalent. Ask me how i know.
Chains are cool. Still get them inspected at 100k. Replace if wanted. I am replacing mine at 100k to 150k with factory updated parts. 2014 3.7 v6 mustang.
They both have their pros and cons. Pick the vehicle you want and maintain it appropriately. Got it. I do prefer the belt only because that is what my truck has.
Thanks Eric. Today is actually my birthday. You are the only one to give me a digital cake.
I’d probably have to side with a timing chain on this. My 05 mini has 122k miles on it. I replaced the head gasket December 2020 and considered replacing the timing chain while I was at it until I opened up the engine to find it looked to be in good shape along with the guides. But I’m going to anticipate replacing it here soon as a preventative measure. I can’t get financing on a vehicle at a reasonable APR at the moment.
I like the timing chains. Even though they don't have a regular service interval i still check them once every 20 or 30,000 miles