Disagree at with 12:48. I dont want all my decks closer in power level. I like having a mix of lower power, mid, high, & seedy. Edh is big enough for different power levels & better for it.
I think he means at the same table. Not in your collection. When you sit down to play, all the decks should be at similar levels for a fair competition.
The fact that Jeweled Lotus exists is a sign that Wizards is willing to prioritize profits above the quality of the game. It sucks that it got banned but it should never have been printed in the first place.
Jlo was never a problem though, playing your commander is part of the fun, doing stuff is fun, why would you not wanna do that? My omnath locus of rage is like I gotta come down quick so I can actually do something…. If I play it on curve… that’s like 3x 5/5 I get at most and then I die… or someone’s ready to insta remove it and I get nothing anyway
Yeah, that's why I'm suspecting these bans are deliberate protests against Hasbro. The cards are perfect examples of weird things Hasbro has been doing wrong.
100% this. It's was a beyond idiotic idea to print a power nine card into the format, why not a timewalk that works only if your commander is out next? or ancestral recall?
1) A big problem i have is that the bans/ rules comittee dont commit to an idea or value. If you make a banlist it should be to prevent/ ban degenerative cards and make a statement of where you want the game to be. You cant do that if you flip flop these ideas. You cant ban coalition victory and not ban thassas. You cant ban mana crypt and leave sol ring. You cant just ban for the hell of it. HAVE A GOAL AND FOLLOW IT. Like... if you did that they wouldnt have problems. Theres a ton of cards you should ban on principle or are problematic. But when you give yourself legroom like "Oh... but sol ring is iconic" then you arent helping anyone. The one Ring. Thassas. Orcish bowmasters. Rystic. Fierce guardianship. All Cards that in one way or another affect BOTH formats in bad ways or are poorly designed... if you just understood they are degenerative and banned based on that. The community will be happier. 2) Power level in edh honestly doesnt matter too much if everyone is trying to actually play the game. interaction, ramp, etc. Most times power level doesnt really matter if you deckbuild right. A precon thats built right can tussle with myriam and Ur dragon. All you gotta do is hit the pieces they got before they pop off. its moreso a "player skill" rather than "my decks only a 5" But if you give players cards like rystic you just give them crutches. You give them an out to not learn and only rely on value to brute force wins. rather than run interaction. 3) Rules 0 is only as good as a good banlist. Without knowing the goal or flip flopping a rule 0 is useless. It should help tie a knot to the hard stuff. NOT BR A COMPLETE RELIANCE. Cause that means that most people will only play with friends. Cause whats the point of playing the game if i gotta be on my tippy toes on random peoples feelings everyday. Just make a strong banlist. Then if people wanna do whacky stuff like run Golos... you rule 0 that. Im just so angry. These changes dont help casuals. it doesn't help CEDH... and it puts everyone against each other. When it couldve been so easy. im just dissapointed.
I do not understand this take. Their intention is stated in plain English and every decision that has been made moves towards that goal. Maybe you don’t agree with that direction which is totally fair and valid. But to say they don’t have one just isn’t true. And I don’t know about you but it sure as heck will help my casual games 🤷♂️.
You didnt read. They flip flop all the time. Theyll make a reason now and say fast mana is bad... but then wont ban sol ring.Then wont ban thassas but let coalition stay banned. hypocrisy. They dont have a goal cause they dont stick to a decision. its why this banlist felt random. @@Arufonsa1
@@Arufonsa1They dont have a goal cause they keep changing it. Now its fast mana... meanwhile these cards have been here for years. we dont get a thassas ban... but coalition victory is? They dont have a plan. They just hear the backlash for certain cards for a decade and now decide to do something. its never consistent.
I understand Nadu because of P. Engine. Kind of understand Dockside since it was so explosive, but Mana Crypt has been around since the beginning. My only guess is that with the recent increase of its reprints the acceleration has become more noticeable in casual games as people crack packs and open them.
Honestly if they banned Sol Ring alongside Mana Crypt I think it would have gone over a lot easier for the people who like the most powerful decks. Keeping one and not the other because one is cheaper due to being in every precon is a big feels bad.
@@_z3i That isn't the reason. It wasn't about "banning one and not the other", it was about the fact that _one_ bit of S-tier fast mana creates an engaging archenemy dynamic which most tables can deal with in a fun game, but _two_ bits of S-tier fast mana creates an _oppressive_ archenemy which most tables _can't_ deal with. So, if S-tier is crypt, sol ring, and lotus, and you decide that hands with two are the issue (which is a correct assessment), you ban the ones which are _not_ ubiquitous. Some people would question LED, Mox, and Vault. LED is card-negative and only +1 not +2. Hands which accelerate to a 6 mana turn 2 with LED don't have cards left to be oppressive. Same with Chrome Mox. Vault can catapult you forwards, but it can't easily follow up.
The RC can’t ban sol ring. If they did, every commander precon would basically become illegal in commander. And buying when you’re getting into commander only to be told your deck is not legal because of a cars in it is an even worst feel bad. Also, I feel if they didn’t ban Mana crypt, but they banned Dockside and/or Jeweled Lotus, people would be upset at them not banning the crypt. If they wanted to ban fast mana cards, I feel this was the best choice they could have gone with given the hand they had been given.
IMO the only reason they didn't ban Sol Ring is that WOTC reprints it in every commander deck, and they don't want to make every single commander deck have a banned card by default. That's the only reason.
@@icedreamer9629 Based on the reasoning as written the problem is not that you may by some extreme stroke of luck get two pieces of fast mana, it’s that having two makes it more consistent and you will have more games where someone gets very far on turn one. They even refer to that under hypergeometric calculations this will lower the statistical likelihood that someone will get a hand where they get to turn two with more than expected numbers of mana. Hence the main reasoning here would then be to make it more of a rare occurrence that someone gets way out ahead on turn 1 because they luck out and get that 1 in 99 Sol Ring in their opening hand. However, my argument would be that cutting down on redundant effects actually then makes the Sol Ring starts even stronger since you now lower the odds that your opponents get something similar and can keep up with you.
Thank you, Rebell. This is what I've been telling my playgroup for years - what needs to go is the fast mana. No one is playing Ad Naus or Thoracle in casual, but they sure as hell were playing crypt and dockside. Thanks for making these points loud and clear for the people that make the decisions about our format.
There’s nothing to thank, RC and CAG helped wizards sell out of a product the festival in a box. Where wizards promoted a chance to get Mana crypt alt art, and Jeweled lotus. They sold out right before the ban list was launched at us. The RC admitted to being in communications with wizards and now they are trying to cover their behinds after helping wizards sell out of a product and slam the players who bought it. The RC and CAG should be disbanded.
The cEDH meta will be more homogenized (RogSi loses nothing, fringe decks like Korvold or Godo are dead) and turn order will matter even more than it already did. I'm struggling to see the positives here.
RogSi loses nothing? Did you see that mana crypt and dockside were banned? The deck that is supposed go as fast as possible just lost 2 of its best cards.
@@MrSonictheOtterYou’ve clearly never planned RogSi if you think those were its two best cards. Dockside was its third backup plan at best. It never needed that card to win, obviously by that fact that it can win on turn-1 when Dockside is at its worst.
@@MrSonictheOtter I wish I can downvote you harder for how wrong you are. Rog/Si is played because Rog enables all commander free stuff. No one is cheating out Si with crypt. Dockside is a slight hit but it will be fine. This just promotes Rog/Si even more because everything got slower and now there is no punishment for dropping rocks.
As the current meta stands plus the bans? Sure. But there's going to be a major overhaul of the entire meta with these changes so I expect new decks to come up and likely also some old ones to be playable again.
It will not tho. Casuals will still build unoptimised/fun deck, and will still lose to pubstomping spike. Mana crypt/Dockside Ban will not narrow the gap. You need to ban like 5-10 more cards in order to realistically see that result
@@Uefeti I mean, of course people are going to build unoptimized, thematic, or goofy decks. One of my favorites is basically a third slimes against humanity, a third persistent petitioners, a third lands, and like 5 other cards. What I'm trying to say, which to my knowledge is what Rebell was more or less saying, is two part. A) precons have gotten overall stronger. This more or less means that most decks will get stronger since people tend to go from pre con, to upgraded precon, to their own decks. When you're starting at a higher level you're likely to (on the whole) be higher level. Sure, there are people who want to do battle cruiser or other slow shit, but that's not the majority. And B)this removes some of the most explosive cards from well optimized and better decks. One of my favorite decks is Sisay, and losing dockside hurts a lot for that deck, it practically kills chowder. It will lower the overall ceiling of the format, maybe not by a ton but certainly a bit. A cEDH deck will still consistently beat a pod of precons, but that 99% win rate that we would've seen 5ish years ago is probably closer to 95% now. And that's comparing basically the best decks to more or less the worst decks. Once you look at upgraded precons vs high power I'd imagine that gap gets much smaller.
@@AlexM-nl6nx oh, I don't agree with it either. But I also think I might be wrong. Like, I'm upset I have several cards worth a lot less than they did a week ago, and I'm upset I have to rebuild one of my decks that usually won with flickering dockside. But, I hope this might bring the format together and/or slow down cEDH and allow some more interesting decks to shine
@@rudirs3 Oh, In that case, absolutely, yeah. Thought the difference is a bit marginal, precons as well as other commander-oriented products became much better/accessible
The important question. Jeweled Lotus might help prop up expensive commanders, but it doesn't singlehandedly solve the problem. When you choose to handicap yourself by playing less optimally, the onus is on you to recognize that makes you less likely to win. The game cannot bend over backwards to accommodate people who make the "wrong" choice, especially when doing so turbocharges the people who will exploit it (playing cheap to mid-cost commanders with JLo to get huge value bursts out of the gate).
I won't miss them one single bit. The very concept of "as powerful as possible within commander's rules" is utterly antithetical to commander. It is diametrically opposed to what the format was supposed to be, and those people who push the format that direction should just _leave_.
Apologies for what sounds like ignorance, but why would a split be bad? At least to me it would mean we could focus on kitchen table being simple and then a competitive spin off for those who love that style.
Look at the trend for Nadu. It dominated edh early and is OP hence I approve of it's ban. Dockside on a late game can change games from losing to winning. It was mentioned it was in the border of being banned in the first place
Tinetwister is actually significantly more fair than Wheel of Fortune or Windfall. Shuffling everyones graveyard drastically reduces the power of the card. While its definitely not fair (that would be Days Undoing) Timetwister is definitely almost ok
The banlist follows a "Flagpost" dynamic. So if the banlist says to not play Mana Crypt players must understand that any card that follows the same direction of play as Mana Crypt shouldn't be played. It's horrible, but... That's what they wanna do...
2 things about these bans that bother me. 1) The best deck before is still the best deck after, and the margin may have widened. 2) This further splinters relations, which is never great.
THANK YOU FELLOW GOLOS DEFENDER I was so annoyed that it got banned. I wanted to play 5c Enchantress stuff (at the time it was Shrines) and I loved having a way to fix my mana in the command zone. At this point there's already a Shrines commander, so I wouldn't even put the deck back together, but it still really annoyed me. To the point where I was getting genuinely upset that it was banned, mainly because the argument seemed to be that it was "too popular"
Thoughts on a point system similar to Canadian Highlander instead of a banned list? The format is supposed to be casual but it has a vintage card pool and is an eternal format. If we disclose our points before the game it's a quick and easy way to get on the same page of desired gameplay. If sol ring eats up most of my allotted points now I can also run Mana crypt and primeval titan with my remaining points.
Disagreeing with the Jeweled Lotus ban does not mean it is incorrect. Yes, it's fine if you play a silly commander that no one will ever bat an eye to, but the reality is that Jeweled Lotus was used to cheat out Vojas and other gigantic commanders that give you insurmountable advantages, and the price tag it commanded reflects that.
@@Uefeti voja has ward, unless you wipe you pay at least 3 mana to kill it. On turn 2 players can be unable to bypass his ward at all Urza almost always can immediately (using construct and something else) play a stax piece Krenko (or Marvin or vanifar or anything else with a tap=win soon) are a must answer that can come out before any opponent even played a land and require immediate answer
Mama crypt was always a safe add/ buy/ keep type of card. Banning it is just wild imo. It’s been around way too long to just abruptly ban it especially given the level of power creep happening in the game now.
I know these bans have probably been stressful on you. As a bit of good news, I hadn't really heard of you until them due to only vague notions of the CAG, but I find you eminently reasonable and now get to follow your content as a bright spot. Doesn't offset death threats, but I hope it helps you know that you're not universally pitchforked. Thank you for everything you've done that I didn't even know you were doing.
I could gab about my mixed feelings on the ban and how it feels like a half-measure, but I'd rather say that this is an incredibly thoughtful talk that helped me make sense of the bannings. Acknowledging at the beginning how bannings are always bad and talking about all the cards you have that got affected was very kind. I honestly agree with you on every point, and had the exact same opinion on Nadu prior to today. Thanks for the chat Rebel, I know I really appreciated it
I've played in east and west coast US LGSes. NetDecking is rampant, and theres no distinction between a cEDH decklist and a casual list. I've seen "casual" thoracles, t1 mana crypt + jewel lotus into a 6cmc commander with free interaction, and dockside combo looping on t2. These cards are never casual.
I could be sad about the money that ban anouncement cost me today but it the saddest part it that it seems to have evoprated my cedh-playgroup. We're pretty much a non-proxy group, everybodys got his pet-deck blinged out to the max and many ppl. are taking this as the final reason to quit.
Everyone is losing the same card. Each one basically made the game luck based because those who get them first hand are at a clear advantage. Everyone wants to play competitive, but no one actually wants to make a deck, only slap cards around the same 20 staples.
@@schorltourmaline4521 Thats just not true. Some commanders basically got banned because they are literally unplayable now (for example Korvold, Rocco). Me on the other hand on Kinnan could be very happy (Mana crypt so what, I can mike enough mana without it) but I am not because I'm afraid to run in the same 3 decks in the future. So many colorcombinations are unplayable now - same goes basicallyfor 4cmc+ commanders.
@@WeirdPhilosophy "You took my only *mana*. Now I'm gonna starve" you say while probably running 15 mana rocks, a chromatic lantern, every dual/trio land in existence, and enough tutors to run a college curriculum. If your entire deck hinges on you getting the free mana Crypt and Lotus provide just so you can play your high cost commander in a manner that you can be comfortable with, then you probably shouldn't have been running it in the first place. Let's be honest, no one is "locked out" of using these commanders. They are locked out of playing them turn two, or not having to pay tax when their commander gets targeted cause no one wants to deal with that stuff as early as you're trying to play it.
With RC catering to casual tier play, I feel like there should be a shift away from a banlist towards a tiered system for commander staples to better accommodate for the breadth of power levels in the game. Establishing what you'd expect to see in a casual or advanced level table would better set relative power levels of decks. If you're using Jeweled Lotus or Dockside Extortionist, you're expected to play or see those in CEDH tables, not the local casual commander night at a small card shop.
On Jeweled Lotus, as a big fat commander enjoyer, I understand the feeling of it allowing what are otherwise unplayable commanders be played. Buuuuut, thinking on how each new 5+ mv commander printed gets more and more absurd, stopping it from resolving early becomes more important. The existence of JL, for casual tables that allowed it, meant you had to play countermagic to stop the Tiamat or some other "win on ETB" commander from dropping turn 4 or 5. Unless the table agrees on "you can only play this if your commander kind of sucks", big mana commanders today kind of win you the game, or create a pressure that stops the other players from playing. It is sad large bad commanders cannot be played well, but it may also be a bit of future proofing The whole idea of Nadu being pregame conversation-ed out... I dunno, I don't believe it. When Jim presented the question of how often do people see a Pubstomper Nadu played "casually", there was enough people talking about horrid experiences playing against that card, that I guess some people just got lucky avoiding it. Or others were unlucky, I dunno. From a CEDH perspective. I played Tivit. I was building Sissay. Now one went from Tier 2 to unplayable and the other one may drop off Tier 1. And I am not mad! I genuinely like to see a shake up of the format
@@thiagoanbonfim they specifically said win on ETB. Saying a card is fine if you limit yourself to always playing blue so you can deal with it and what it enables isnt the slam dunk defense you think it is.
Sisay can still win easily you just need a selvala and a mana untapper or flicker. Good lord CEDH players need to grow up. The ban could have been a lot worse but everyone is talking about this is the death of CEDH. If your playing a deck around one card your not a good magic player
Yeah, I think you've hit on the fact that Commander, like all other formats, changes as the card pool does and "Battlecruiser Magic" is inherently not a strategy that the game's card pool can support anymore. Jeweled Lotus makes expensive commanders easier, but it also makes cheap commanders easier - the hard reality is that expensive commanders aren't as good in Commander and you just have to deal with that if you want to play one. The entire game cannot be warped around players who want to win _and_ want to make it harder on themselves. The concept of a mana curve is real no matter how badly your inner twelve-year-old wants to cast Shivan Dragon.
@@thiagoanbonfim casual has limitations on card price and quality. The most common "answer" are 5 cmc sorcery board wipes. Second most common is sword/path/pongify/etc. Third is 3 cmc unconditional "remove one permanent" spells. Notice how none of these trade favorably against the player who popped off with JL or MC? Using targeted removal still puts you down a card, your turn and advantages 2 other players. In casual, its typically correct to save your silver bullets to protect your attempt to win the game.
@@alexrowson-brown6568 its definetely not anymore. Godo was pretty mid already, and with these 3 bans godo (along with Winota) are completely dead in cedh.
@@alexrowson-brown6568 i wish you all the luck in the world trying to resolve either post ban. Im not sure where you’ll get the mana from, but it’ll be sick when it happens
The thing with Dockside for me is that it had an insidious effect on deck building, with people opting to play less artifact removal so their dockside would be reliably stronger every game. Now that it's gone, hopefully people will run more artifact removal to keep others in check. EDIT: I've also been advocating for a Sol ring/mana crypt ban for years. I'd be in favor of seeing more fast mana get banned but not necessarily a blanket ban. Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond and Mox Opal should be the top end of what is acceptable. But of course that's as long as we stay below a certain threshold of how many fast mana cards are in the format.
I think the main issue isn’t fast mana, but too much mana too fast. No one won off the back of a late-game chrome mox or even mana crypt, but a late-game dockside could spell ultimate doom for 2 mana. Crypt hurts the early game because WotC keeps printing mid-game value engine goodstuff which makes crypt better and better to land t1-3. Though you also have the crypt into ring into signets start which can swing games by itself. By splitting fast mana into multiple cards for the same amount of mana you then have to decide between a hand of mostly mana or pitch it for a hand with more do-something cards. So hopefully they leave the other fast mana alone 🙏
im sorry its a bit insane to think that we should have to deal with a commander black lotus bc you want to play a unplayable commander that is also so underpowered that if you win with Razzia it means the game was so underpowered that Jewel lotus was out of place
What I love about fast mana and tutors is the ability to tune up and down decks depending on what you play. If it's a trash commander with a hard, slow, bad but fun theme, you can add some tutors and fast mana to bridge the gap to playability. And if you play a strong commander with a strong shell, you can just remove some tutors and fast mana to scale it back. It's literally the Guage you use to adjust power level. Good commanders get boosted by this while nisch, expensive commanders get hurt the most. This is super sad.
"No free mana" is a wild take. What's your thought on red rituals in that case? They act similar to that of Sol Ring except they dontvstick around. Still would count as "free mana" though. Just curious how many cards you think would still be in the format after that. I mean, even Llanowar would be considered free mana once it's able to tap. 😅
@RebellSon I did. You made the statement soon after. That's why I'm curious to know more about your definition of "free mana." Rituals and dorks that give more than one mana were never mentioned. 🤔 I legit watching the Nadu part rn lol. I do respect your concern for the views, though.
For tournament cEDH Rog / Si got a huge boost with these bans. The gap has widened between them and blue farm for sure. However, there are other decks that are completely unplayable now. Niv Mizzet, Korvold, Kennrith, Rocco, etc. These decks may not be at the top of the meta, but are still loved and played by many people. Personally, I love playing Rocco but now I do jot think it is viable. Loosing both Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt is huge for the deck. Dockside is a bog loss, but not as pinnacle. I often wouldn’t need Dockside to win, but now just casting Rocco is a challenge. Even my Malcolm / Vial Smasher deck took a big hit. Still playable, but really have to consider the plan of the deck. Is Magda any good in the deck without Dockside? Are Fierce and Swat any good without Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt? The deck will definitely need to change. This is a deck that I have played in tournaments and done really well with. Now I do not know if it can compete at a tournament level against Rog / Si. For casual the bans make sense, except for Jeweled Lotus and Nadu. At a competitive and higher power level the bans do not make sense.
Do you currently have any plans on finishing and/or sharing your article on escalation theory? It looks like a very good read and resource. No pressure of course
I'm personally in agreement. In multiple formats, I've always had bigger issues with enablers than top ends/interaction, because that was where you kept seeing those formats converge into turning those enablers into staples. A good example for me is the Omnath ban in standard, instead of Lotus Cobra. There was so much discourse about how pushed Omnath was, which he is, but the card that broke standard and continued to enable miserable play patterns was Lotus Cobra. Even a more costly Cobra still ended up being central to the Aftermath Analyst deck that got into Top 8 in the PTs.
I saw Nadu once, and they found a Shuko early. The play pattern was not fun to play against as it just prolonged the game and didn't win the game. I am okay with it being banned in casual commander, but I would be okay with it remaining legal in Cedh.
@@AlexM-nl6nx I would argue that the only one that don't are complaining about lost money (their own fault). It's called risk, and it's why you should sell whenever you can discover you don't need certain cards. You're not entitled to make money off the game.
No one cares if I play dockside because I don't run infinite combos with it. Have adult conversations and leave the RC out of your pod. Now I may win when I cast insurrection and take emiel the blessed and win that way but that is a fun interesting way to win. You keep removing fun and then we stop playing. Bye MTG
I think there bans are good for the health of commander. I feel it is very "the sky is falling" to assume this will cause a cedh and edh split. I hope we are moving towards a direction that (no shade to sheldon and may he rest well) is no longer completely governed by one persons vision of the format, even if it was unintentional.
Recently I've been getting into cedh, which is rough in my country since the exchange rate is 3x USD. Despite that I was steadily saving for dockside since I run a Korvold deck. The reason I wanted to play commander was Korlvod and then cedh because of Korvold's ceiling. Now I'm just disappointed. I didn't manage to get a Dockside, but still, seems like the proyect I've been working for a while is just dead
saved up for a regular mana crypt got it in two weeks ago. Cast it turn 5 one game and now its banned. its not so much crypt getting banned but it feels like a sucker punch or getting the rug pulled out from under me there was no warning or even a notice. it feels bad especially since crypts been around for a decade.
I'm more upset because my youngest pulled a Crypt last year for Christmas as a gift from my fiance (she passed in March) as well as an absolutely adorable proxy of it so she could play with it. This ban is gonna break my daughter's heart knowing her fairy deck now has an illegal card. I understand the why, but as her dad, I have to deal with the fallout
These cards shouldn’t be played in casual decks anyway and rule zero is a thing that exists. this really affects cEDH in a negative way though, Rog/si is by far the best deck in the format now and the formats need to be split so it has its own ban list
it happened long ago, mana crypt was already banned, sol ring: competitive commander is called Duel Commander. In march i played my first tournament , duel commander. Everyone knew Sol Ring is banned. It has been for a while
The problem is that red sort of required Dockside to sit with blue decks. Dockside is a ridiculous card and should be banned, but that's only a symptom. The problem is that blue, as a toolset is just too good. Only color that can reliably stop a "I win now" combo at instant speed...outside of some wonky redirection shenanigans. Blue needs a power down, that or give more counter magic to non-blue. It's dumb that a strategy becomes like 8 times better the moment that blue is in the toolkit. This is why degeneratie shit like RogSi and Kinan is gonna stomp now. If they really want to keep these cards banned, then level the playing field. How? By banning these: - Bowmasters - Rhystic Study - Mystic Remora - Demonic Consultation (either that or Oracle, but DC is the problem that makes it a turn 1 win if you open ritual). The problem in essence next to blue as a color, is that cheaper commanders, cmc-wise, are just better than 6 cmc manders without a "fair" version of fast mana for them.
@@jw7500 that’s another reason this ban sucks. Those explosive starts that allow you to go off before the blue player can get that hand full of counter magic off a rhystic study or fish helped other colours keep up.
As Nadu cEDH player, I appreciate that someone on the CAG had sympathy for our plight. I agree in that I've only ever have seen Nadu self-select into cEDH where it was a non-problem. Nadu was legitimately my favor Commander, and reinvigorated my love for Commander... I wasn't disillusioned to the possibility it could be banned, but this still sucks and it just feels like the 1000+ designated Nadu players in the Discord are getting dogpiled for this...
The Nadu dilema reminds me of gitrog play patterns. sucks to see it go, I saw a TON of variance with buddies of mine whi used Nadu as a secret commander in cEDH. Overall sad to see these go, not only financially, but because these were cards I saw as [pillars (in cEDH of course).
Nah, this ban was crap. These cards are normally not even played in a casual game. I like how RC said they don't ban for cedh then release this bs. Yeah, we see you RC, you ain't slick. Crypt is powerful but is not needed for every single deck. I get it's free but banning this and allowing Sol Ring to exist is just dumb. Dockside is powerful but shouldn't have been banned. Dockside allows Red/x combo decks to compete. Without it all of those decks are no longer viable. Lotus really helped 1 and 2 colored decks to keep pace with multi-colored decks. Commander is a format where generally the more colors you can run, the stronger your deck is. Nadu was the only good ban cause it certainly did create a problem where turns would take forever. Also interacting with this creature was just a nightmare for a lot of decks and in turn would just feed the Nadu player. These bans hurt fringe decks way more than they hurt popular oppressive decks. And like I said, these cards are not even played at casual tables.
From a cEDH perspective, I'm both sad and happy about the bans. Sad because I did enjoy playing GRx decks and those are a lot worse without dockside. But also happy because a lot of the older infinite mana strategies like Food Chain and Worldgorger that weren't as good as looping dockside are more reasonable now. I will also ask, is there a reason to ban Mana Crypt and not Mana Vault? I know it's nowhere near as good, and doesn't as neatly fit your chart in the same way Mana Crypt did, but I'd still be interested to hear your thoughts on Vault.
Hi Lily, Premise: I don't even play cEDH But I think people should play what they like (unless they play a high power deck vs casual... but disgress). Players are realizing that the RC doesn't understand cEDH as a different format than EDH, and for the RC they try to powerdown the format without understanding the types of players that play this for example cEDH. Some of us, started a DIscord Server about a wishful thinking about creating a Rule Committee specifically for cEDH with the hope that WotC will consider cEDH as its own thing, but this project needs the support of big names in the scene like yours.. if you are interested
I think that most problematic games I see at my LGS are from decks that spiral out of control when not bullied, as opposed to decks that run fast mana. I guess this would translate to the graph going vertical out of nowhere as opposed to starting higher but still horizontal.
I have always been a janky/themed casual brewer of EDH. But I actually might try to brew more competitive commander decks with these cards being banned. Does this make eggs, cheerios, enchantment and token strategies more competitive? When deck building I tend to self regulate. (No dual lands, as well as no fast mana) Maybe because I have just found these cards to be un-fun in casual play. now that they don’t exist there isn’t as big of - or if any at all tipping point to competitive. Right now it feels like all my super tuned casual decks are now ‘competitive’. Or is competitive extinct and we will see a smaller range of power lvls in this format moving forwards Leaning towards high power.
I believe Jlotus ban is just crazy. Especially with regards to the fact that its recently been reprinted as a chase card, too. Bait & switch. But thats secondary. Its the way it impacts and invalidates so many decks... Thats just not cool.
I'm happy with all the bans. I know Dockside was on a watch list. I think that Crypt and Lotus should have been on a watch list before they got banned. I bought Mana Crypt about 10 years ago and I'm not too upset they banned it. I NEARLY bought Jeweled Lotus last week. If I had I would be pretty pissed right now. I don't want any of these cards back in Commander, but I hope that cEDH splits away and reinstates them.
Jeweled Lotus is the one that really surprised me. I never really saw anyone playing Lotus casually unless, like you, they were using it to ramp a bad/clunky commander into play. And for cedh, it gave the more commander centric decks a better chance in the low cmc partner ruled world.
if the rc banned based on powerlevel to make "cedh" (edh except people build and play their decks to win optimally) meta balanced or interesting or whatever, then everyone else can rule 0 the "unfun" stuff. I don't mind lots of fast mana in the format, like bring back the old banned moxen if you want, but they gotta be consistent about whether or not they want fast mana. Having very few fast manas in the format reduces the amount of times someone snowballs, but it still feels bad when they do snowball, so why not just get rid of that completely instead of letting sol ring stay because "it defines the format." So they admit fast mana defines the format so why not unban the old moxen and then like officially allow proxies in the format.
I got into magic a few months ago and had saved up for a big expensive pack "double masters collector". Pulled a foil etched dockside and was so freaking exited. I will never play mtg again and I'm definitely never buying packs or cards. Got burned really bad here and I have no joy left for a new hobby I was really exited about just a few days ago.
Ban nadu? Fine, it was just boring for everyone (pilot included) The other 3? They killed all turbo decks and a lot of 4+ mana commanders for no reason
As a cEDH player, these bans didn’t hurt turbo in the slightest. RogSi, the PREMIER turbo list, doesn’t care about any of these cards in a meaningful way. Turn one Ad Naus will always be possible, with or without Mana Crypt.
No it doesn't - Sol Ring is spirit of format. I wouldn't have played commander at all if I couldn't play sol ring. It's what brainstorm is to legacy. Rituals aren't the same thing - a one time shot is okay, I can always 2 for 1 you. Something that stays on the table is bad. Breach is just a win condition.
Breach is a wincon and advantage engine just like dockside, the difference is dockside punished greedy plays it cannot win if others are not greedy. 2nd soul ring was only made the unofficial mascot not because of its deep heritage. It’s that it was more affordable than a 600 dollar mana crypt. If we go by history manacrypt was developed when edh was created, sol ring came out way after.. sol ring still follows the same metrics as mana crypt and should be banned along side it because the argument is the same if not weaker.
And your thing rituals meaning you can 2 for 1 me, is highly unlikely because rogsi has now been cemented as one of the best decks in the format based off fast game ending rituals…
@@MsThatstuff Sol Ring was part of Alpha, Crypt came a little later and was a book promo card. Crypt saw little play for decades, as it was actually quite rare. I believe the first reprint was in a masters set, somewhere in 2015 i believe?
I agree with this, generally. In cedh, mana crypt and dockside were most abused by the highest tier decks of the format. there are some lower tier victims, sure. But now Rogsi is probably net 1 turn slower. That's huge. I own a dockside, a special jeweled lotus, a crypt, and even a nadu. But I truly believe commander is healthier without any of them. I am glad you agree that if you cut off the earliest mana, the lower tier decks are ultimately uplifted.
hi rebell! as a general statement, i'm happy about these bans [talking only about casual] i agree with those kind of bans and i agree with what you said, for example someone i know uses jeweled lotus to cast the uuurrr niv-mizzet which makes sense in terms of "mana fixing" and being a control deck, but then comes what is my opinion which is that if a player is allowed to play temple of the false god and sol ring, what's stopping them to include ancient tomb and mana crypt, they are basically the same cards, no? what about jeweled lotus? it was specifically made for commander, for their commander deck! and since they have a lot of artifacts in their not-in-any-way-artifact-synerigystic deck then they should include mox opal and mana vault as well, right? i see this as a deep spiral downward that can cause problems if a person doesn't realise what they are doing (and anyone can disagree with me and i'm okay with you disagreeing). but yes, jeweled lotus being a commander-only card, made for a commercialised commander product, banned from commander is weird. i'm happy about the ban of nadu because, even with that article we got about nadu's creation, if i read the official oracle text of nadu it's just a disaster in many places, so i'm happy that it's gone from another format. [talking about cedh] dockside hurts a lot, what you said in the video was a lot, everything and enough. it will basically reshape the format. first time i hear the term "untrusted play", only recently i started doing that online because i was so scared of it and i'm still scared (because i'm shy and because of you know what). so far i had one bad experience out of three and with these bans i know i will have less bad experiences in the future.
I feel like Thassa's Oracle should've caught a ban too, base purely off the expected play graph you showed. I'm just happy I can play an artifact deck again without handing the win over to the red deck that found it's dockside
It does kinda feel like that was the reason, doesn't it? There was a big push in Wilds for enchantments, and it seems like we have another one here in DM, but it felt like nobody really built into them because of the (incredibly likely) chance that one of your three opponents will find a Dockside, and you'll just be giving them the win. The same reason nobody has really been playing pure artifacts. Except Urza, because he can outvalue Dockside.
Honestly my way of looking at this is a a fre of the decks I had that ran these cards just got free cuts which makes my life way easier. Honestly I don't have any financial loss in this outside of my dock side that I wasn't really playing anyway and I literally got from a precon ages ago. Anyway I think these bans are generally good for the format overall and those saying doom.and gloom for cedh seem to forget that that format is adaptable and always has been.
That chart is great. It’s basically how I’ve viewed the optimal game for years. Personally I think if you banned all ramp that costs less than two (even dorks like BoP and Llanowar elves) you’d hit that sweet spot automatically. Also Razia was my first ever commander. I got into commander bc I wanted to cast Boros Fury-Shield and Captain’s Maneuver on my friends 😂
Thanks for the vid! From a casual perspective, bans don't mean shit. If your playgroup has spent a bunch of money on these cards and you still want to play with them, then do it. I agree with Rebell, if they want to restructure commander in general, then they need a comprehensive clipping of a whole bunch of cards.
My biggest issue with these bans is the inconsistency with the RC's rulings. I agree with Dockside and Crypt being banned and could be persuaded to Lotus being banned and have always believed that most if not all "free" mana should be banned. But it is so frustrating to see the RC say Sol Ring is fine because its iconic or whatever. If that's the case, then they can't just turn around and ban cards that have been around for 4+ years, because those cards are also iconic to EDH's identity! If the point is self regulation and the banlist is just examples of things you shouldn't play then Nadu shouldn't be banned since they already banned Paradox Engine. If the banlist is moving to regulate power more heavily then why are cards like the one ring, rhystic study, thoricle, timetwister, etc not being mentioned? Anyway, looks like I picked the best time to come back to magic after 4 years lmao.
For the casual side: I can follow your points and I agree that the Nadu ban can be discussed, but I had a different experience. People didn't play it as there commander, but ran it in the 99 and it often became the thing to copy, clone and steal. I understand that's a very narrow regional viewpoint, but I am just trying to give the perspective that the views of the RC are not as far removed as you thought. As far as your take on Jewled Lotus goes, I understand it, but I disagree.Yes, it helps with big mana ckmmanders, but due to it being free it helps with low coloured commanders even more. My casual Pirate deck literally only runs pirates and cards that sound or look like pirate stuff. I tried jelwed lotus ad a proxy in it and T1 Malcolm is busted anf even T1 Breeches is oppressive.
I love your ban theory/theory of escalation. I live playing big dumb things in later game commander as for me that’s kinda what it’s about. I have a dockside and some jewelled lotus which I cracked when drafting/opening packs but I only ever used the dockside and really probably cause he was too good not to use (deck had treasure and token enablers). I would love to see Sol Ring banned as I deliberately don’t use it as it’s too much of an auto include for every deck we may as well be playing a 99 card format rather than 100. As a largely green cantered player I love land ramp and getting value from my lands I’d love to see primeval Titan return as I personally don’t think it’s as bad when you compare it to the current EDH format/meta. But I do recognise I’m biased towards quality land ramp and quality lands. What do you think of land ramp with your escalation theory? Is it ok as you’re expending early game resources to get it going vs aggro decks getting a board presence established? You’re one of my favourite and more thoughtful MTG personalities/content creators. Keep up the great work and I’d love to see the RC take you and your ideas onboard. Would you please do a video on what your bans would be if you and you alone were the current RC with the current cards/sets/decks out there. I think it would be an interesting thought experiment and would love to see it. Thanks
I agree with all that was said in this Video. I own 3 Mana Crypts (1 normal, 1 Special Guest and 1 Fullart Double Masters), but I am still glad that the cards got banned because of the reasons that were already mentioned in this Video. Sol ring is also a Tier 0 card, like the band cards but it is a 1 Dollar card which everyone can afford compared to the band cards, which means that its fine that it stays unbanned. Let the prices drop and make Commander more affordable. I dont mean make all cards worthless, some expensive cards like Rhystic Study for example have a okey Power to Money balance. Just make Commander reasonalby priced and balanced.
Also this is just a Theory (puts Tinfoil hat on): I think WOTC plans to make official Commander Tournaments. This theory is really far fetched and has no Sources. But just based on the last years of heavy Commander support in Magic and now this bann list, I am assuming that they plan to host official Commander Tournaments. We will see if more bann lists will come out, which would maybe make this theory more plausable. But hey thats just a theory.....a Magic Theory. Thanks for reading ;)
This ban doesn't affect me at all, I play at low power pods where we get to make super creative decks and have fun so I consider myself blessed. but when I heard of the ban I immediately thought of your video on mana pips and I thought of my most powerful deck which is Niv MIzzet budget and I thought of all the people that was kinda able to be helped a lot by jeweled lotus and now after the ban they will have to consider to change their maybe fav commander or whatsoever. I have no experience in higher powerlevels but I think as you stated there are a lot of cards that empower other cards and having or not having the commander out is huge for people playing free commander-on-battlefield cards plus maybe we lost some creativity in the process. but then there is the issue that these cards were also marketing machines and very expensive because very broken, creating the idea that they were not for everyone but only for people that could afford them
I say this as a person that lucked into a Crypt, and Jeweled Lotus, with an original Dockside in its precon, never used them, It's strange, because a lot of the barriers that all the most recently banned cards save for Nadu, is the COST of a Dockside, a Crypt, and a Jeweled Lotus monetarily. Unless you luck into one by cracking a pack. Unless you're dealing with a proxy friendly environment at a friend's home is one thing, but public places are entirely a different thing. Overall these choices to ban significantly lower the cost of building a deck. And hopefully push WOTC away from making chase cards specifically made for EDH. I'm sorry that this is so long, but the cynical part of me wonders if the timing of these bans is due to them no longer being reprinted for the foreseeable future so the bans happen. RC takes heat, WOTC/Hasbro doesn't really care since money was already given to them when the cards were initially opened from packs. Secondary market be damned. That's my tinfoil take.
Great analysis 👍 I think they went overboard with the ban hammer. I haven't heard your idea of escalation theory but it's brilliant I love the idea of no free mana rocks in a casual deck. Makes sense
I do have all of those cards except the bird, and I do personally like to be able to take a stupid Idea and make it work by putting in enough staples to carry it. However the reason I disagree with the bans isn't because I have them but because I do think it makes the game worse. That's because they explicitly didn't ban the other free mana, if they leave free mana in the game but ban only a part of it then it will make it so that you will get to it less often and so when you draw it then it will be worse for the table because you just won the game because you got lucky as opposed to having more pieces of it so that most players will get some free mana over the course of the game and it is just powerful but normal effect. If they just erased all the free mana, including sol ring, moxes and stuff like carpet of flowers then I would be more fine with it even if I "loose out" on more of the cards I bought for commander.
My issue with the bans is the people that bought product chasing the cards that got banned. And also kill one or two fast mana sources but let sol ring live. Sol ring is better than crypt to me, yes it cost 1 to cast but there is no draw back to it. At least with crypt you get hit if you lose the flip. Lotus was only for a commander. If you dont see it early its a dead card. What kind of precedent does this set? Are we gonna start having lands get hit because of their utility?
I really feel like the RC is leaning casual. I foresee someone building a banlist for competitive EDH outside of that leadership. Dockside and mana crypt? They're opening the door for a competitive banlist.
So everyone has to stay on the same ramp curve? What about greens mana ramp advantage? What about a deck that is built to ramp and that’s it’s style? What about the imbalance of someone who’s getting card draw advantage? What about people getting creature advantage? What about early combo wins from tons of tutors? What about dropping fast rocks and having no cards in hand now to play with the early mana? All of this breaks your curve.
As someone wanting to get into Canadian Highlander hopefully the prices drop a good amount, I'd like to pick some stuff up
Droppin like a rock
Canlander for life!!!!
Same
Disagree at with 12:48. I dont want all my decks closer in power level. I like having a mix of lower power, mid, high, & seedy. Edh is big enough for different power levels & better for it.
I think he means at the same table. Not in your collection.
When you sit down to play, all the decks should be at similar levels for a fair competition.
The fact that Jeweled Lotus exists is a sign that Wizards is willing to prioritize profits above the quality of the game. It sucks that it got banned but it should never have been printed in the first place.
The card is super fun to play with. It´s a mistake to ban it
Jlo was never a problem though, playing your commander is part of the fun, doing stuff is fun, why would you not wanna do that? My omnath locus of rage is like I gotta come down quick so I can actually do something…. If I play it on curve… that’s like 3x 5/5 I get at most and then I die… or someone’s ready to insta remove it and I get nothing anyway
Yeah, that's why I'm suspecting these bans are deliberate protests against Hasbro.
The cards are perfect examples of weird things Hasbro has been doing wrong.
@@filipefranca5866what’s fun about it to you? I sold mine months back because I don’t like the card in casual.
100% this. It's was a beyond idiotic idea to print a power nine card into the format, why not a timewalk that works only if your commander is out next? or ancestral recall?
1) A big problem i have is that the bans/ rules comittee dont commit to an idea or value.
If you make a banlist it should be to prevent/ ban degenerative cards and make a statement of where you want the game to be. You cant do that if you flip flop these ideas.
You cant ban coalition victory and not ban thassas. You cant ban mana crypt and leave sol ring.
You cant just ban for the hell of it. HAVE A GOAL AND FOLLOW IT.
Like... if you did that they wouldnt have problems. Theres a ton of cards you should ban on principle or are problematic. But when you give yourself legroom like "Oh... but sol ring is iconic" then you arent helping anyone.
The one Ring. Thassas. Orcish bowmasters. Rystic. Fierce guardianship. All Cards that in one way or another affect BOTH formats in bad ways or are poorly designed... if you just understood they are degenerative and banned based on that. The community will be happier.
2) Power level in edh honestly doesnt matter too much if everyone is trying to actually play the game. interaction, ramp, etc. Most times power level doesnt really matter if you deckbuild right.
A precon thats built right can tussle with myriam and Ur dragon. All you gotta do is hit the pieces they got before they pop off. its moreso a "player skill" rather than "my decks only a 5" But if you give players cards like rystic you just give them crutches. You give them an out to not learn and only rely on value to brute force wins. rather than run interaction.
3) Rules 0 is only as good as a good banlist. Without knowing the goal or flip flopping a rule 0 is useless. It should help tie a knot to the hard stuff. NOT BR A COMPLETE RELIANCE. Cause that means that most people will only play with friends. Cause whats the point of playing the game if i gotta be on my tippy toes on random peoples feelings everyday. Just make a strong banlist. Then if people wanna do whacky stuff like run Golos... you rule 0 that.
Im just so angry. These changes dont help casuals. it doesn't help CEDH... and it puts everyone against each other. When it couldve been so easy.
im just dissapointed.
I agree with you one hundo homie.
So incredibly well said. I feel like they really lost all of the community trust here
I do not understand this take. Their intention is stated in plain English and every decision that has been made moves towards that goal. Maybe you don’t agree with that direction which is totally fair and valid. But to say they don’t have one just isn’t true.
And I don’t know about you but it sure as heck will help my casual games 🤷♂️.
You didnt read. They flip flop all the time. Theyll make a reason now and say fast mana is bad... but then wont ban sol ring.Then wont ban thassas but let coalition stay banned. hypocrisy.
They dont have a goal cause they dont stick to a decision. its why this banlist felt random.
@@Arufonsa1
@@Arufonsa1They dont have a goal cause they keep changing it.
Now its fast mana... meanwhile these cards have been here for years. we dont get a thassas ban... but coalition victory is?
They dont have a plan. They just hear the backlash for certain cards for a decade and now decide to do something. its never consistent.
Big props for being one of the few people I've seen critically asses the pros and cons of a Nadu banning!
I understand Nadu because of P. Engine. Kind of understand Dockside since it was so explosive, but Mana Crypt has been around since the beginning. My only guess is that with the recent increase of its reprints the acceleration has become more noticeable in casual games as people crack packs and open them.
I mean, it only became more expensive so I dunno
Honestly if they banned Sol Ring alongside Mana Crypt I think it would have gone over a lot easier for the people who like the most powerful decks.
Keeping one and not the other because one is cheaper due to being in every precon is a big feels bad.
@@_z3i That isn't the reason. It wasn't about "banning one and not the other", it was about the fact that _one_ bit of S-tier fast mana creates an engaging archenemy dynamic which most tables can deal with in a fun game, but _two_ bits of S-tier fast mana creates an _oppressive_ archenemy which most tables _can't_ deal with.
So, if S-tier is crypt, sol ring, and lotus, and you decide that hands with two are the issue (which is a correct assessment), you ban the ones which are _not_ ubiquitous.
Some people would question LED, Mox, and Vault. LED is card-negative and only +1 not +2. Hands which accelerate to a 6 mana turn 2 with LED don't have cards left to be oppressive. Same with Chrome Mox. Vault can catapult you forwards, but it can't easily follow up.
The RC can’t ban sol ring. If they did, every commander precon would basically become illegal in commander. And buying when you’re getting into commander only to be told your deck is not legal because of a cars in it is an even worst feel bad.
Also, I feel if they didn’t ban Mana crypt, but they banned Dockside and/or Jeweled Lotus, people would be upset at them not banning the crypt. If they wanted to ban fast mana cards, I feel this was the best choice they could have gone with given the hand they had been given.
IMO the only reason they didn't ban Sol Ring is that WOTC reprints it in every commander deck, and they don't want to make every single commander deck have a banned card by default.
That's the only reason.
it feels good to people who didnt """"""""""invest"""""""""" in overpriced cardboard
@@icedreamer9629 Based on the reasoning as written the problem is not that you may by some extreme stroke of luck get two pieces of fast mana, it’s that having two makes it more consistent and you will have more games where someone gets very far on turn one.
They even refer to that under hypergeometric calculations this will lower the statistical likelihood that someone will get a hand where they get to turn two with more than expected numbers of mana.
Hence the main reasoning here would then be to make it more of a rare occurrence that someone gets way out ahead on turn 1 because they luck out and get that 1 in 99 Sol Ring in their opening hand.
However, my argument would be that cutting down on redundant effects actually then makes the Sol Ring starts even stronger since you now lower the odds that your opponents get something similar and can keep up with you.
Thank you, Rebell. This is what I've been telling my playgroup for years - what needs to go is the fast mana. No one is playing Ad Naus or Thoracle in casual, but they sure as hell were playing crypt and dockside. Thanks for making these points loud and clear for the people that make the decisions about our format.
We are now. Every black and blue commander possible. Stax until we get it.
There’s nothing to thank,
RC and CAG helped wizards sell out of a product the festival in a box.
Where wizards promoted a chance to get Mana crypt alt art, and Jeweled lotus. They sold out right before the ban list was launched at us.
The RC admitted to being in communications with wizards and now they are trying to cover their behinds after helping wizards sell out of a product and slam the players who bought it.
The RC and CAG should be disbanded.
The cEDH meta will be more homogenized (RogSi loses nothing, fringe decks like Korvold or Godo are dead) and turn order will matter even more than it already did. I'm struggling to see the positives here.
RogSi loses nothing? Did you see that mana crypt and dockside were banned? The deck that is supposed go as fast as possible just lost 2 of its best cards.
@@MrSonictheOtterYou’ve clearly never planned RogSi if you think those were its two best cards. Dockside was its third backup plan at best. It never needed that card to win, obviously by that fact that it can win on turn-1 when Dockside is at its worst.
Rogsi is probably a turn slower. Crypt and dockside were extremely important to their early wins. Without them, other lower tier decks can compete
@@MrSonictheOtter I wish I can downvote you harder for how wrong you are. Rog/Si is played because Rog enables all commander free stuff. No one is cheating out Si with crypt. Dockside is a slight hit but it will be fine. This just promotes Rog/Si even more because everything got slower and now there is no punishment for dropping rocks.
As the current meta stands plus the bans? Sure. But there's going to be a major overhaul of the entire meta with these changes so I expect new decks to come up and likely also some old ones to be playable again.
I do really appreciate the idea of this helping narrow the gap of power level and needing the rule 0 conversation a bit less
It will not tho.
Casuals will still build unoptimised/fun deck, and will still lose to pubstomping spike.
Mana crypt/Dockside Ban will not narrow the gap.
You need to ban like 5-10 more cards in order to realistically see that result
Most of the community does not agree with this ban
@@Uefeti I mean, of course people are going to build unoptimized, thematic, or goofy decks. One of my favorites is basically a third slimes against humanity, a third persistent petitioners, a third lands, and like 5 other cards.
What I'm trying to say, which to my knowledge is what Rebell was more or less saying, is two part. A) precons have gotten overall stronger. This more or less means that most decks will get stronger since people tend to go from pre con, to upgraded precon, to their own decks. When you're starting at a higher level you're likely to (on the whole) be higher level. Sure, there are people who want to do battle cruiser or other slow shit, but that's not the majority. And B)this removes some of the most explosive cards from well optimized and better decks. One of my favorite decks is Sisay, and losing dockside hurts a lot for that deck, it practically kills chowder. It will lower the overall ceiling of the format, maybe not by a ton but certainly a bit. A cEDH deck will still consistently beat a pod of precons, but that 99% win rate that we would've seen 5ish years ago is probably closer to 95% now. And that's comparing basically the best decks to more or less the worst decks. Once you look at upgraded precons vs high power I'd imagine that gap gets much smaller.
@@AlexM-nl6nx oh, I don't agree with it either. But I also think I might be wrong. Like, I'm upset I have several cards worth a lot less than they did a week ago, and I'm upset I have to rebuild one of my decks that usually won with flickering dockside. But, I hope this might bring the format together and/or slow down cEDH and allow some more interesting decks to shine
@@rudirs3 Oh, In that case, absolutely, yeah.
Thought the difference is a bit marginal, precons as well as other commander-oriented products became much better/accessible
How does your Razia deck work when you don't draw jeweled lotus then?
The important question. Jeweled Lotus might help prop up expensive commanders, but it doesn't singlehandedly solve the problem. When you choose to handicap yourself by playing less optimally, the onus is on you to recognize that makes you less likely to win. The game cannot bend over backwards to accommodate people who make the "wrong" choice, especially when doing so turbocharges the people who will exploit it (playing cheap to mid-cost commanders with JLo to get huge value bursts out of the gate).
My biggest fear is that this might trigger the CEDH split that's been threatening to happen for a while now, which isn't good for anybody.
Conquest is having a laugh at us right now.
@@LoboGuarah they deserve some happiness
I won't miss them one single bit. The very concept of "as powerful as possible within commander's rules" is utterly antithetical to commander. It is diametrically opposed to what the format was supposed to be, and those people who push the format that direction should just _leave_.
Apologies for what sounds like ignorance, but why would a split be bad? At least to me it would mean we could focus on kitchen table being simple and then a competitive spin off for those who love that style.
Competitive people should be good at the game, not change the game such a way they turn out to be good
Ah yes, the ones in my decks that were banned were a mistake while the ones I didn't own and were salty about were "Good calls"
Look at the trend for Nadu. It dominated edh early and is OP hence I approve of it's ban. Dockside on a late game can change games from losing to winning. It was mentioned it was in the border of being banned in the first place
How is Time Twister still legal? Mox Diamond? Lion’s Eye Diamond?
Tinetwister is actually significantly more fair than Wheel of Fortune or Windfall. Shuffling everyones graveyard drastically reduces the power of the card. While its definitely not fair (that would be Days Undoing) Timetwister is definitely almost ok
Mox Diamond is card disadvantage. LED is a combo tool, not generic ramp piece. Time Twister for the most part is just an expensive Draw 7.
The banlist is largely based on vibes. Casual players don't know what those cards are so there's no bad vibez.
@@imaginarymatter Worst thing I've heard
The banlist follows a "Flagpost" dynamic. So if the banlist says to not play Mana Crypt players must understand that any card that follows the same direction of play as Mana Crypt shouldn't be played.
It's horrible, but... That's what they wanna do...
2 things about these bans that bother me.
1) The best deck before is still the best deck after, and the margin may have widened.
2) This further splinters relations, which is never great.
Yeah, the fastest deck doesn’t need the catchup mechanic of dockside most of the time.
majority of the time because it abuses black for mana
The best deck (tymna + kraum) is not good at all now. No dockside and no jeweled lotus. The deck is kinda mid now
@@filipefranca5866 Talking about rogsi homie
@@filipefranca5866nah they literally don’t care
THANK YOU FELLOW GOLOS DEFENDER I was so annoyed that it got banned. I wanted to play 5c Enchantress stuff (at the time it was Shrines) and I loved having a way to fix my mana in the command zone. At this point there's already a Shrines commander, so I wouldn't even put the deck back together, but it still really annoyed me. To the point where I was getting genuinely upset that it was banned, mainly because the argument seemed to be that it was "too popular"
Thoughts on a point system similar to Canadian Highlander instead of a banned list? The format is supposed to be casual but it has a vintage card pool and is an eternal format. If we disclose our points before the game it's a quick and easy way to get on the same page of desired gameplay. If sol ring eats up most of my allotted points now I can also run Mana crypt and primeval titan with my remaining points.
Why don't you just play canadian highlander then? Sounds like what you're looking for. I like EDH banlist the way it is.
Disagreeing with the Jeweled Lotus ban does not mean it is incorrect. Yes, it's fine if you play a silly commander that no one will ever bat an eye to, but the reality is that Jeweled Lotus was used to cheat out Vojas and other gigantic commanders that give you insurmountable advantages, and the price tag it commanded reflects that.
And urza turn 1
And Augustin turn 1
And tegrid turn 2 with just lands
And t1 krenko
And so on
What's good for the goose (Intet, the Dreamer) is good for the Gander (Chatterfang)
How is early Voja a problem tho?
It’s a board-based card which needs an untap to do anything.
Augustin is brutal ngl.
Urza is very strong.
But others are not that bad imo
@@Uefeti voja has ward, unless you wipe you pay at least 3 mana to kill it. On turn 2 players can be unable to bypass his ward at all
Urza almost always can immediately (using construct and something else) play a stax piece
Krenko (or Marvin or vanifar or anything else with a tap=win soon) are a must answer that can come out before any opponent even played a land and require immediate answer
Mama crypt was always a safe add/ buy/ keep type of card. Banning it is just wild imo. It’s been around way too long to just abruptly ban it especially given the level of power creep happening in the game now.
This episode was fantastic! I absolutely love hearing your takes and philosophies behind theories such as your escalation theory! Thanks for sharing
I know these bans have probably been stressful on you. As a bit of good news, I hadn't really heard of you until them due to only vague notions of the CAG, but I find you eminently reasonable and now get to follow your content as a bright spot. Doesn't offset death threats, but I hope it helps you know that you're not universally pitchforked. Thank you for everything you've done that I didn't even know you were doing.
Def makes me unwilling to purchase more product, and I'll never not proxy something more than 10 bucks again. This will hurt lgs's
I feel like we need 3 lists. Casual, band as commander, cedh
I could gab about my mixed feelings on the ban and how it feels like a half-measure, but I'd rather say that this is an incredibly thoughtful talk that helped me make sense of the bannings. Acknowledging at the beginning how bannings are always bad and talking about all the cards you have that got affected was very kind. I honestly agree with you on every point, and had the exact same opinion on Nadu prior to today.
Thanks for the chat Rebel, I know I really appreciated it
This feels super weird, like the CRC is trying to force the format split tbh
O believe so
I'd be okay with that. The cEDH cards that got banned might get value again if they did.
I've played in east and west coast US LGSes. NetDecking is rampant, and theres no distinction between a cEDH decklist and a casual list. I've seen "casual" thoracles, t1 mana crypt + jewel lotus into a 6cmc commander with free interaction, and dockside combo looping on t2. These cards are never casual.
100% going to force the split
I could be sad about the money that ban anouncement cost me today but it the saddest part it that it seems to have evoprated my cedh-playgroup. We're pretty much a non-proxy group, everybodys got his pet-deck blinged out to the max and many ppl. are taking this as the final reason to quit.
Everyone is losing the same card. Each one basically made the game luck based because those who get them first hand are at a clear advantage. Everyone wants to play competitive, but no one actually wants to make a deck, only slap cards around the same 20 staples.
@@schorltourmaline4521 Thats just not true. Some commanders basically got banned because they are literally unplayable now (for example Korvold, Rocco). Me on the other hand on Kinnan could be very happy (Mana crypt so what, I can mike enough mana without it) but I am not because I'm afraid to run in the same 3 decks in the future. So many colorcombinations are unplayable now - same goes basicallyfor 4cmc+ commanders.
Yeah as a Niv-mizzet player... I just want to quit now. Every integral part of my deck just got banned.
@@WeirdPhilosophy "You took my only *mana*. Now I'm gonna starve" you say while probably running 15 mana rocks, a chromatic lantern, every dual/trio land in existence, and enough tutors to run a college curriculum.
If your entire deck hinges on you getting the free mana Crypt and Lotus provide just so you can play your high cost commander in a manner that you can be comfortable with, then you probably shouldn't have been running it in the first place. Let's be honest, no one is "locked out" of using these commanders. They are locked out of playing them turn two, or not having to pay tax when their commander gets targeted cause no one wants to deal with that stuff as early as you're trying to play it.
With RC catering to casual tier play, I feel like there should be a shift away from a banlist towards a tiered system for commander staples to better accommodate for the breadth of power levels in the game. Establishing what you'd expect to see in a casual or advanced level table would better set relative power levels of decks. If you're using Jeweled Lotus or Dockside Extortionist, you're expected to play or see those in CEDH tables, not the local casual commander night at a small card shop.
I'm just sad I cannot use a Mana Crypt in my coin flip deck now :(
I wish they had a separate ban list for EDH and cEDH.
I can see a cEDH split coming. And I hope it happens.
On Jeweled Lotus, as a big fat commander enjoyer, I understand the feeling of it allowing what are otherwise unplayable commanders be played. Buuuuut, thinking on how each new 5+ mv commander printed gets more and more absurd, stopping it from resolving early becomes more important. The existence of JL, for casual tables that allowed it, meant you had to play countermagic to stop the Tiamat or some other "win on ETB" commander from dropping turn 4 or 5. Unless the table agrees on "you can only play this if your commander kind of sucks", big mana commanders today kind of win you the game, or create a pressure that stops the other players from playing. It is sad large bad commanders cannot be played well, but it may also be a bit of future proofing
The whole idea of Nadu being pregame conversation-ed out... I dunno, I don't believe it. When Jim presented the question of how often do people see a Pubstomper Nadu played "casually", there was enough people talking about horrid experiences playing against that card, that I guess some people just got lucky avoiding it. Or others were unlucky, I dunno.
From a CEDH perspective. I played Tivit. I was building Sissay. Now one went from Tier 2 to unplayable and the other one may drop off Tier 1. And I am not mad! I genuinely like to see a shake up of the format
Casual players are mortally allergic to interaction?
@@thiagoanbonfim they specifically said win on ETB. Saying a card is fine if you limit yourself to always playing blue so you can deal with it and what it enables isnt the slam dunk defense you think it is.
Sisay can still win easily you just need a selvala and a mana untapper or flicker. Good lord CEDH players need to grow up. The ban could have been a lot worse but everyone is talking about this is the death of CEDH. If your playing a deck around one card your not a good magic player
Yeah, I think you've hit on the fact that Commander, like all other formats, changes as the card pool does and "Battlecruiser Magic" is inherently not a strategy that the game's card pool can support anymore. Jeweled Lotus makes expensive commanders easier, but it also makes cheap commanders easier - the hard reality is that expensive commanders aren't as good in Commander and you just have to deal with that if you want to play one. The entire game cannot be warped around players who want to win _and_ want to make it harder on themselves. The concept of a mana curve is real no matter how badly your inner twelve-year-old wants to cast Shivan Dragon.
@@thiagoanbonfim casual has limitations on card price and quality. The most common "answer" are 5 cmc sorcery board wipes. Second most common is sword/path/pongify/etc. Third is 3 cmc unconditional "remove one permanent" spells. Notice how none of these trade favorably against the player who popped off with JL or MC? Using targeted removal still puts you down a card, your turn and advantages 2 other players. In casual, its typically correct to save your silver bullets to protect your attempt to win the game.
If your jank commander runs Jeweled Lotus, Smothering Tithe etc., is it still jank?
Someone lost to godo and took it a lil personally 😂 not even a real cedh deck
It is real cedh, it’s job is just go fast 😂
@@alexrowson-brown6568 its definetely not anymore. Godo was pretty mid already, and with these 3 bans godo (along with Winota) are completely dead in cedh.
@@M0th3ater win it’s ain’t dead either
@@alexrowson-brown6568 i wish you all the luck in the world trying to resolve either post ban. Im not sure where you’ll get the mana from, but it’ll be sick when it happens
@@M0th3ater 4 mana commanders really ain’t that hard to resolve
The thing with Dockside for me is that it had an insidious effect on deck building, with people opting to play less artifact removal so their dockside would be reliably stronger every game. Now that it's gone, hopefully people will run more artifact removal to keep others in check.
EDIT: I've also been advocating for a Sol ring/mana crypt ban for years. I'd be in favor of seeing more fast mana get banned but not necessarily a blanket ban. Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond and Mox Opal should be the top end of what is acceptable. But of course that's as long as we stay below a certain threshold of how many fast mana cards are in the format.
I think the main issue isn’t fast mana, but too much mana too fast. No one won off the back of a late-game chrome mox or even mana crypt, but a late-game dockside could spell ultimate doom for 2 mana. Crypt hurts the early game because WotC keeps printing mid-game value engine goodstuff which makes crypt better and better to land t1-3. Though you also have the crypt into ring into signets start which can swing games by itself. By splitting fast mana into multiple cards for the same amount of mana you then have to decide between a hand of mostly mana or pitch it for a hand with more do-something cards. So hopefully they leave the other fast mana alone 🙏
im sorry its a bit insane to think that we should have to deal with a commander black lotus bc you want to play a unplayable commander that is also so underpowered that if you win with Razzia it means the game was so underpowered that Jewel lotus was out of place
What I love about fast mana and tutors is the ability to tune up and down decks depending on what you play. If it's a trash commander with a hard, slow, bad but fun theme, you can add some tutors and fast mana to bridge the gap to playability. And if you play a strong commander with a strong shell, you can just remove some tutors and fast mana to scale it back. It's literally the Guage you use to adjust power level.
Good commanders get boosted by this while nisch, expensive commanders get hurt the most. This is super sad.
"No free mana" is a wild take. What's your thought on red rituals in that case? They act similar to that of Sol Ring except they dontvstick around. Still would count as "free mana" though. Just curious how many cards you think would still be in the format after that. I mean, even Llanowar would be considered free mana once it's able to tap. 😅
Did you watch the escalation theory part.
@RebellSon I did. You made the statement soon after. That's why I'm curious to know more about your definition of "free mana." Rituals and dorks that give more than one mana were never mentioned. 🤔 I legit watching the Nadu part rn lol. I do respect your concern for the views, though.
The "they don't stick around" is literally the statement that breaks your argument. Rituals and Sol Ring aren't the same.
@@Arctanis-vt3hl No one is arguing. I asked a question. Lol. Grow up please
For tournament cEDH Rog / Si got a huge boost with these bans. The gap has widened between them and blue farm for sure. However, there are other decks that are completely unplayable now. Niv Mizzet, Korvold, Kennrith, Rocco, etc. These decks may not be at the top of the meta, but are still loved and played by many people. Personally, I love playing Rocco but now I do jot think it is viable. Loosing both Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt is huge for the deck. Dockside is a bog loss, but not as pinnacle. I often wouldn’t need Dockside to win, but now just casting Rocco is a challenge.
Even my Malcolm / Vial Smasher deck took a big hit. Still playable, but really have to consider the plan of the deck. Is Magda any good in the deck without Dockside? Are Fierce and Swat any good without Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt? The deck will definitely need to change. This is a deck that I have played in tournaments and done really well with. Now I do not know if it can compete at a tournament level against Rog / Si.
For casual the bans make sense, except for Jeweled Lotus and Nadu. At a competitive and higher power level the bans do not make sense.
I think it is time for cedh to be separate from edh
Do you currently have any plans on finishing and/or sharing your article on escalation theory? It looks like a very good read and resource. No pressure of course
I'm personally in agreement. In multiple formats, I've always had bigger issues with enablers than top ends/interaction, because that was where you kept seeing those formats converge into turning those enablers into staples. A good example for me is the Omnath ban in standard, instead of Lotus Cobra. There was so much discourse about how pushed Omnath was, which he is, but the card that broke standard and continued to enable miserable play patterns was Lotus Cobra. Even a more costly Cobra still ended up being central to the Aftermath Analyst deck that got into Top 8 in the PTs.
I totally agree with you Lily, nice takes on the bans.
I like and appreciate your thoughts and analysis.
The RC's banlist has always been asinine.. What's a few more inconsistent hits to add to the list? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I saw Nadu once, and they found a Shuko early. The play pattern was not fun to play against as it just prolonged the game and didn't win the game. I am okay with it being banned in casual commander, but I would be okay with it remaining legal in Cedh.
Rule 0 does a lot less than people think. It solves few problems. Bans are necessary and I support these.
Most of the community does not
Still going to get thoracle’d on t1-2 and mass land destructioned from a precon… rule 0 needed expanded not the banned list.
@@AlexM-nl6nx I would argue that the only one that don't are complaining about lost money (their own fault). It's called risk, and it's why you should sell whenever you can discover you don't need certain cards. You're not entitled to make money off the game.
@@AlexM-nl6nx Most of the community had all those cards rule0banned long ago.
No one cares if I play dockside because I don't run infinite combos with it. Have adult conversations and leave the RC out of your pod. Now I may win when I cast insurrection and take emiel the blessed and win that way but that is a fun interesting way to win. You keep removing fun and then we stop playing. Bye MTG
Do we think Talion is dead as a cEDH deck?
I think there bans are good for the health of commander. I feel it is very "the sky is falling" to assume this will cause a cedh and edh split. I hope we are moving towards a direction that (no shade to sheldon and may he rest well) is no longer completely governed by one persons vision of the format, even if it was unintentional.
Recently I've been getting into cedh, which is rough in my country since the exchange rate is 3x USD. Despite that I was steadily saving for dockside since I run a Korvold deck. The reason I wanted to play commander was Korlvod and then cedh because of Korvold's ceiling. Now I'm just disappointed. I didn't manage to get a Dockside, but still, seems like the proyect I've been working for a while is just dead
saved up for a regular mana crypt got it in two weeks ago. Cast it turn 5 one game and now its banned.
its not so much crypt getting banned but it feels like a sucker punch or getting the rug pulled out from under me there was no warning or even a notice. it feels bad especially since crypts been around for a decade.
I'm more upset because my youngest pulled a Crypt last year for Christmas as a gift from my fiance (she passed in March) as well as an absolutely adorable proxy of it so she could play with it. This ban is gonna break my daughter's heart knowing her fairy deck now has an illegal card. I understand the why, but as her dad, I have to deal with the fallout
These cards shouldn’t be played in casual decks anyway and rule zero is a thing that exists. this really affects cEDH in a negative way though, Rog/si is by far the best deck in the format now and the formats need to be split so it has its own ban list
it happened long ago, mana crypt was already banned, sol ring: competitive commander is called Duel Commander. In march i played my first tournament , duel commander. Everyone knew Sol Ring is banned. It has been for a while
Disagree with you, only Nadu needed the ban.
The problem is that red sort of required Dockside to sit with blue decks. Dockside is a ridiculous card and should be banned, but that's only a symptom. The problem is that blue, as a toolset is just too good. Only color that can reliably stop a "I win now" combo at instant speed...outside of some wonky redirection shenanigans.
Blue needs a power down, that or give more counter magic to non-blue. It's dumb that a strategy becomes like 8 times better the moment that blue is in the toolkit.
This is why degeneratie shit like RogSi and Kinan is gonna stomp now. If they really want to keep these cards banned, then level the playing field. How? By banning these:
- Bowmasters
- Rhystic Study
- Mystic Remora
- Demonic Consultation (either that or Oracle, but DC is the problem that makes it a turn 1 win if you open ritual).
The problem in essence next to blue as a color, is that cheaper commanders, cmc-wise, are just better than 6 cmc manders without a "fair" version of fast mana for them.
@@jw7500 that’s another reason this ban sucks. Those explosive starts that allow you to go off before the blue player can get that hand full of counter magic off a rhystic study or fish helped other colours keep up.
Najeela can still be t1 as ancient tomb/city of traitors and a mox is a thing but it’s much rarer
I feel dockside has kinda fallen off and didn't need to be touched. and i won't miss Nadu at all!
Cedh needs to declare a separate banlist that is in line with its philosophy.
As Nadu cEDH player, I appreciate that someone on the CAG had sympathy for our plight. I agree in that I've only ever have seen Nadu self-select into cEDH where it was a non-problem. Nadu was legitimately my favor Commander, and reinvigorated my love for Commander... I wasn't disillusioned to the possibility it could be banned, but this still sucks and it just feels like the 1000+ designated Nadu players in the Discord are getting dogpiled for this...
Razia was my first commander before EDH existed.
Embrace proxies, reject bans
Jeweled Lotus never hurt anyone, weird to ban it on a vibe...
The Nadu dilema reminds me of gitrog play patterns. sucks to see it go, I saw a TON of variance with buddies of mine whi used Nadu as a secret commander in cEDH. Overall sad to see these go, not only financially, but because these were cards I saw as [pillars (in cEDH of course).
I only play Winota in cEDH. Winota is dead unless cEDH gets an alternate ban list.
Nah, this ban was crap. These cards are normally not even played in a casual game. I like how RC said they don't ban for cedh then release this bs. Yeah, we see you RC, you ain't slick.
Crypt is powerful but is not needed for every single deck. I get it's free but banning this and allowing Sol Ring to exist is just dumb.
Dockside is powerful but shouldn't have been banned. Dockside allows Red/x combo decks to compete. Without it all of those decks are no longer viable.
Lotus really helped 1 and 2 colored decks to keep pace with multi-colored decks. Commander is a format where generally the more colors you can run, the stronger your deck is.
Nadu was the only good ban cause it certainly did create a problem where turns would take forever. Also interacting with this creature was just a nightmare for a lot of decks and in turn would just feed the Nadu player.
These bans hurt fringe decks way more than they hurt popular oppressive decks. And like I said, these cards are not even played at casual tables.
From a cEDH perspective, I'm both sad and happy about the bans. Sad because I did enjoy playing GRx decks and those are a lot worse without dockside. But also happy because a lot of the older infinite mana strategies like Food Chain and Worldgorger that weren't as good as looping dockside are more reasonable now.
I will also ask, is there a reason to ban Mana Crypt and not Mana Vault? I know it's nowhere near as good, and doesn't as neatly fit your chart in the same way Mana Crypt did, but I'd still be interested to hear your thoughts on Vault.
Hi Lily,
Premise: I don't even play cEDH
But I think people should play what they like (unless they play a high power deck vs casual... but disgress).
Players are realizing that the RC doesn't understand cEDH as a different format than EDH, and for the RC they try to powerdown the format without understanding the types of players that play this for example cEDH.
Some of us, started a DIscord Server about a wishful thinking about creating a Rule Committee specifically for cEDH with the hope that WotC will consider cEDH as its own thing, but this project needs the support of big names in the scene like yours.. if you are interested
I think that most problematic games I see at my LGS are from decks that spiral out of control when not bullied, as opposed to decks that run fast mana. I guess this would translate to the graph going vertical out of nowhere as opposed to starting higher but still horizontal.
I have always been a janky/themed casual brewer of EDH. But I actually might try to brew more competitive commander decks with these cards being banned. Does this make eggs, cheerios, enchantment and token strategies more competitive? When deck building I tend to self regulate. (No dual lands, as well as no fast mana) Maybe because I have just found these cards to be un-fun in casual play. now that they don’t exist there isn’t as big of - or if any at all tipping point to competitive. Right now it feels like all my super tuned casual decks are now ‘competitive’. Or is competitive extinct and we will see a smaller range of power lvls in this format moving forwards Leaning towards high power.
I believe Jlotus ban is just crazy. Especially with regards to the fact that its recently been reprinted as a chase card, too. Bait & switch. But thats secondary. Its the way it impacts and invalidates so many decks... Thats just not cool.
I love how you and Day9TV both have that RTS background as anecdote for Magic Theory.
As someone who's played Commander since 2010, I can tell you White decks used to actually run cards like Staff of Nin for the extra card draw.
This ban kills nadu, magda (probably), sisay, godo, etali, atraxa, niv mizzet, and dargo so cEDH just got a lot more narrow and blue focused
No point of rule zero, im pub stomping precons now since having the convo of fast mana or not seems to be pointless
we will do has we did before lads
I'm happy with all the bans.
I know Dockside was on a watch list. I think that Crypt and Lotus should have been on a watch list before they got banned.
I bought Mana Crypt about 10 years ago and I'm not too upset they banned it.
I NEARLY bought Jeweled Lotus last week. If I had I would be pretty pissed right now.
I don't want any of these cards back in Commander, but I hope that cEDH splits away and reinstates them.
Jeweled Lotus is the one that really surprised me. I never really saw anyone playing Lotus casually unless, like you, they were using it to ramp a bad/clunky commander into play. And for cedh, it gave the more commander centric decks a better chance in the low cmc partner ruled world.
if the rc banned based on powerlevel to make "cedh" (edh except people build and play their decks to win optimally) meta balanced or interesting or whatever, then everyone else can rule 0 the "unfun" stuff.
I don't mind lots of fast mana in the format, like bring back the old banned moxen if you want, but they gotta be consistent about whether or not they want fast mana. Having very few fast manas in the format reduces the amount of times someone snowballs, but it still feels bad when they do snowball, so why not just get rid of that completely instead of letting sol ring stay because "it defines the format."
So they admit fast mana defines the format so why not unban the old moxen and then like officially allow proxies in the format.
I got into magic a few months ago and had saved up for a big expensive pack "double masters collector". Pulled a foil etched dockside and was so freaking exited. I will never play mtg again and I'm definitely never buying packs or cards. Got burned really bad here and I have no joy left for a new hobby I was really exited about just a few days ago.
Remember, rule 0
What you do at home stays at home in your group
Ban nadu? Fine, it was just boring for everyone (pilot included)
The other 3? They killed all turbo decks and a lot of 4+ mana commanders for no reason
you can still play 4 mana commanders, just not on turn 1!!! That's fair!
As a cEDH player, these bans didn’t hurt turbo in the slightest. RogSi, the PREMIER turbo list, doesn’t care about any of these cards in a meaningful way. Turn one Ad Naus will always be possible, with or without Mana Crypt.
The defense you present eats itself when you look at cards like sol ring, breach, rituals
No it doesn't - Sol Ring is spirit of format. I wouldn't have played commander at all if I couldn't play sol ring. It's what brainstorm is to legacy.
Rituals aren't the same thing - a one time shot is okay, I can always 2 for 1 you. Something that stays on the table is bad. Breach is just a win condition.
Breach is a wincon and advantage engine just like dockside, the difference is dockside punished greedy plays it cannot win if others are not greedy.
2nd soul ring was only made the unofficial mascot not because of its deep heritage. It’s that it was more affordable than a 600 dollar mana crypt. If we go by history manacrypt was developed when edh was created, sol ring came out way after.. sol ring still follows the same metrics as mana crypt and should be banned along side it because the argument is the same if not weaker.
And your thing rituals meaning you can 2 for 1 me, is highly unlikely because rogsi has now been cemented as one of the best decks in the format based off fast game ending rituals…
@@MsThatstuff Sol Ring was part of Alpha, Crypt came a little later and was a book promo card. Crypt saw little play for decades, as it was actually quite rare. I believe the first reprint was in a masters set, somewhere in 2015 i believe?
I checked you are right. But no one played crypt because it was 600 while aol ring was 50
I agree with this, generally. In cedh, mana crypt and dockside were most abused by the highest tier decks of the format. there are some lower tier victims, sure. But now Rogsi is probably net 1 turn slower. That's huge.
I own a dockside, a special jeweled lotus, a crypt, and even a nadu.
But I truly believe commander is healthier without any of them.
I am glad you agree that if you cut off the earliest mana, the lower tier decks are ultimately uplifted.
hi rebell! as a general statement, i'm happy about these bans
[talking only about casual] i agree with those kind of bans and i agree with what you said, for example someone i know uses jeweled lotus to cast the uuurrr niv-mizzet which makes sense in terms of "mana fixing" and being a control deck, but then comes what is my opinion which is that if a player is allowed to play temple of the false god and sol ring, what's stopping them to include ancient tomb and mana crypt, they are basically the same cards, no? what about jeweled lotus? it was specifically made for commander, for their commander deck! and since they have a lot of artifacts in their not-in-any-way-artifact-synerigystic deck then they should include mox opal and mana vault as well, right? i see this as a deep spiral downward that can cause problems if a person doesn't realise what they are doing (and anyone can disagree with me and i'm okay with you disagreeing).
but yes, jeweled lotus being a commander-only card, made for a commercialised commander product, banned from commander is weird.
i'm happy about the ban of nadu because, even with that article we got about nadu's creation, if i read the official oracle text of nadu it's just a disaster in many places, so i'm happy that it's gone from another format.
[talking about cedh] dockside hurts a lot, what you said in the video was a lot, everything and enough. it will basically reshape the format.
first time i hear the term "untrusted play", only recently i started doing that online because i was so scared of it and i'm still scared (because i'm shy and because of you know what). so far i had one bad experience out of three and with these bans i know i will have less bad experiences in the future.
I feel like Thassa's Oracle should've caught a ban too, base purely off the expected play graph you showed. I'm just happy I can play an artifact deck again without handing the win over to the red deck that found it's dockside
It does kinda feel like that was the reason, doesn't it? There was a big push in Wilds for enchantments, and it seems like we have another one here in DM, but it felt like nobody really built into them because of the (incredibly likely) chance that one of your three opponents will find a Dockside, and you'll just be giving them the win. The same reason nobody has really been playing pure artifacts. Except Urza, because he can outvalue Dockside.
Honestly my way of looking at this is a a fre of the decks I had that ran these cards just got free cuts which makes my life way easier.
Honestly I don't have any financial loss in this outside of my dock side that I wasn't really playing anyway and I literally got from a precon ages ago.
Anyway I think these bans are generally good for the format overall and those saying doom.and gloom for cedh seem to forget that that format is adaptable and always has been.
That chart is great. It’s basically how I’ve viewed the optimal game for years. Personally I think if you banned all ramp that costs less than two (even dorks like BoP and Llanowar elves) you’d hit that sweet spot automatically.
Also Razia was my first ever commander. I got into commander bc I wanted to cast Boros Fury-Shield and Captain’s Maneuver on my friends 😂
Thanks for the vid! From a casual perspective, bans don't mean shit. If your playgroup has spent a bunch of money on these cards and you still want to play with them, then do it. I agree with Rebell, if they want to restructure commander in general, then they need a comprehensive clipping of a whole bunch of cards.
I think bannig most of the fast mana could lead to games dragging on for eternity and mit so beloved sceptre rev dying
But I would have like to see the one ring go
My biggest issue with these bans is the inconsistency with the RC's rulings. I agree with Dockside and Crypt being banned and could be persuaded to Lotus being banned and have always believed that most if not all "free" mana should be banned. But it is so frustrating to see the RC say Sol Ring is fine because its iconic or whatever. If that's the case, then they can't just turn around and ban cards that have been around for 4+ years, because those cards are also iconic to EDH's identity! If the point is self regulation and the banlist is just examples of things you shouldn't play then Nadu shouldn't be banned since they already banned Paradox Engine. If the banlist is moving to regulate power more heavily then why are cards like the one ring, rhystic study, thoricle, timetwister, etc not being mentioned?
Anyway, looks like I picked the best time to come back to magic after 4 years lmao.
Seat 4 banned?
For the casual side:
I can follow your points and I agree that the Nadu ban can be discussed, but I had a different experience. People didn't play it as there commander, but ran it in the 99 and it often became the thing to copy, clone and steal. I understand that's a very narrow regional viewpoint, but I am just trying to give the perspective that the views of the RC are not as far removed as you thought.
As far as your take on Jewled Lotus goes, I understand it, but I disagree.Yes, it helps with big mana ckmmanders, but due to it being free it helps with low coloured commanders even more. My casual Pirate deck literally only runs pirates and cards that sound or look like pirate stuff. I tried jelwed lotus ad a proxy in it and T1 Malcolm is busted anf even T1 Breeches is oppressive.
I love your ban theory/theory of escalation. I live playing big dumb things in later game commander as for me that’s kinda what it’s about. I have a dockside and some jewelled lotus which I cracked when drafting/opening packs but I only ever used the dockside and really probably cause he was too good not to use (deck had treasure and token enablers).
I would love to see Sol Ring banned as I deliberately don’t use it as it’s too much of an auto include for every deck we may as well be playing a 99 card format rather than 100.
As a largely green cantered player I love land ramp and getting value from my lands I’d love to see primeval Titan return as I personally don’t think it’s as bad when you compare it to the current EDH format/meta. But I do recognise I’m biased towards quality land ramp and quality lands.
What do you think of land ramp with your escalation theory? Is it ok as you’re expending early game resources to get it going vs aggro decks getting a board presence established?
You’re one of my favourite and more thoughtful MTG personalities/content creators. Keep up the great work and I’d love to see the RC take you and your ideas onboard.
Would you please do a video on what your bans would be if you and you alone were the current RC with the current cards/sets/decks out there. I think it would be an interesting thought experiment and would love to see it.
Thanks
Also what are you thoughts on banned as the commander?
I agree with all that was said in this Video. I own 3 Mana Crypts (1 normal, 1 Special Guest and 1 Fullart Double Masters), but I am still glad that the cards got banned because of the reasons that were already mentioned in this Video. Sol ring is also a Tier 0 card, like the band cards but it is a 1 Dollar card which everyone can afford compared to the band cards, which means that its fine that it stays unbanned. Let the prices drop and make Commander more affordable. I dont mean make all cards worthless, some expensive cards like Rhystic Study for example have a okey Power to Money balance. Just make Commander reasonalby priced and balanced.
Also this is just a Theory (puts Tinfoil hat on): I think WOTC plans to make official Commander Tournaments. This theory is really far fetched and has no Sources. But just based on the last years of heavy Commander support in Magic and now this bann list, I am assuming that they plan to host official Commander Tournaments. We will see if more bann lists will come out, which would maybe make this theory more plausable. But hey thats just a theory.....a Magic Theory. Thanks for reading ;)
You should start the cedh RC and make the banlist that our community is ok with.
My friend is desperate... he have to go to a cedh tournament but his Korvold is kinda nerfed a lot...
This ban doesn't affect me at all, I play at low power pods where we get to make super creative decks and have fun so I consider myself blessed. but when I heard of the ban I immediately thought of your video on mana pips and I thought of my most powerful deck which is Niv MIzzet budget and I thought of all the people that was kinda able to be helped a lot by jeweled lotus and now after the ban they will have to consider to change their maybe fav commander or whatsoever. I have no experience in higher powerlevels but I think as you stated there are a lot of cards that empower other cards and having or not having the commander out is huge for people playing free commander-on-battlefield cards plus maybe we lost some creativity in the process.
but then there is the issue that these cards were also marketing machines and very expensive because very broken, creating the idea that they were not for everyone but only for people that could afford them
"i bought that fuck"
The same for me in my 2 mana crypts...
I say this as a person that lucked into a Crypt, and Jeweled Lotus, with an original Dockside in its precon, never used them, It's strange, because a lot of the barriers that all the most recently banned cards save for Nadu, is the COST of a Dockside, a Crypt, and a Jeweled Lotus monetarily. Unless you luck into one by cracking a pack.
Unless you're dealing with a proxy friendly environment at a friend's home is one thing, but public places are entirely a different thing. Overall these choices to ban significantly lower the cost of building a deck. And hopefully push WOTC away from making chase cards specifically made for EDH. I'm sorry that this is so long, but the cynical part of me wonders if the timing of these bans is due to them no longer being reprinted for the foreseeable future so the bans happen. RC takes heat, WOTC/Hasbro doesn't really care since money was already given to them when the cards were initially opened from packs. Secondary market be damned. That's my tinfoil take.
Great analysis 👍
I think they went overboard with the ban hammer.
I haven't heard your idea of escalation theory but it's brilliant
I love the idea of no free mana rocks in a casual deck. Makes sense
Rebell.. same here. It feels like my collection was stolen. All that money saved for these four cards.. all lost.
I do have all of those cards except the bird, and I do personally like to be able to take a stupid Idea and make it work by putting in enough staples to carry it.
However the reason I disagree with the bans isn't because I have them but because I do think it makes the game worse. That's because they explicitly didn't ban the other free mana, if they leave free mana in the game but ban only a part of it then it will make it so that you will get to it less often and so when you draw it then it will be worse for the table because you just won the game because you got lucky as opposed to having more pieces of it so that most players will get some free mana over the course of the game and it is just powerful but normal effect.
If they just erased all the free mana, including sol ring, moxes and stuff like carpet of flowers then I would be more fine with it even if I "loose out" on more of the cards I bought for commander.
My issue with the bans is the people that bought product chasing the cards that got banned. And also kill one or two fast mana sources but let sol ring live. Sol ring is better than crypt to me, yes it cost 1 to cast but there is no draw back to it. At least with crypt you get hit if you lose the flip. Lotus was only for a commander. If you dont see it early its a dead card. What kind of precedent does this set? Are we gonna start having lands get hit because of their utility?
I really feel like the RC is leaning casual. I foresee someone building a banlist for competitive EDH outside of that leadership. Dockside and mana crypt? They're opening the door for a competitive banlist.
So everyone has to stay on the same ramp curve? What about greens mana ramp advantage? What about a deck that is built to ramp and that’s it’s style? What about the imbalance of someone who’s getting card draw advantage? What about people getting creature advantage? What about early combo wins from tons of tutors? What about dropping fast rocks and having no cards in hand now to play with the early mana? All of this breaks your curve.