FOX Sports’ John Smoltz’s Plan to End Baseball’s Arm Injuries Epidemic | The Rich Eisen Show
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 มิ.ย. 2024
- Baseball Hall of Famer/FOX Sports MLB Analyst John Smoltz tells Rich Eisen the reason for the rash of arm injuries to many star pitchers around MLB.
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Best voice in the MLB. I like the idea of DH being tied with the starter.
It is not a bad idea!
Is that the same thing as the Ohtani rule? 🤔
Great pitcher, great communicator. Props to Mr. Smoltz.
Smoltz playing chess when everyone else playing checkers
You know something is wrong when high school pitchers are getting Tommy John surgery. That never used to happen.
John Smoltz is a smart man! I also hate the way they don't let starting pitchers pitch anymore and complete games have become a big deal because you never see them anymore, when that used to be the expectation.
If you don't go max effort the other team hits homers. That's where we are, it's all about punchies and homers.
You know, I think that it's even more than that. The modern game is saying "complete games, perfect games, or no hitters " AREN'T a big deal, compared to the advantage of 'not tiring out your pitcher or wasting their arm on a meaningless game'. Which to me is even more detrimental to the health of the sport.
@@zachansen8293not necessarily. Home runs are typically the end result of throwing a predictable pitch or a hanger. You get predictable pitch counts when you fall behind, which happens a lot in today’s game, because pitchers have sacrificed control for velocity and movement. You get hangers when you throw too many offspeed pitches, which a lot of pitchers are doing in traditional fastball counts now.
His shirt/camera effect makes me think he’s mid-phase transition into a different dimension.
Did Nolan Ryan play travel ball every summer of his life from the time he was 8 years old?
In my opinion, it’s kids that throw all the time all year long and play no other sport.
Not just baseball. High school football is all year long. Youth sports no longer facilitates multi-sport athletes.
I would be curious to see… since 2000, How many UCL injuries in kids do we see under the age of 17?
And how many did we see in that same age group before 1999?
And then get on the guys like Smoltz and Cox who went in on all this Lakepoint jazz that ruined youth sports at the local level.
Growing up in a county of 27k people (the high school floated around 1,000 students), we had anywhere from 8-12 youth teams… baseball and football. We could compete within our own county and develop kids from within.
It’s not like that anymore! People spend THOUSANDS of dollars for their kid to play travel league sports and wear out their body before it’s even developed. THAT is the detriment of elbows and shoulders.
Kids are resilient, yes. But kids also need a break.
Kids only get 18 summers with their parents.
And what kind of jobs are these parents having to do (or what extra) just to afford this kind of thing? Is it taking time away from their kids?
Signed, a PE teacher, who has been on 10+ win football staffs, 4th place is the worst we’ve finished in wrestling, and I’ve been on multiple baseball staffs with deep playoff runs.
I’ve seen this from multiple areas and multiple states. Let kids be kids again!
How do you explain the pitchers from Japan? They from a young age throw way more than any other pitchers from any other country. Yet, I believe they get injured less than the pitchers state-side.
I don’t think it has much to do with getting a lot of reps…..the velocity and big break mentality has spread into youth sports. No longer changing speeds, pitching to weaknesses, etc. kids emulate what they see…..batting gloves, elbow pads, sliding gloves, you name it…..fastest fastballs and big curves (movement) are what they see and try to emulate from a pitching perspective. Also, some kids have poor throwing motions that are not corrected, because they get people out and everyone knows that winning your next “pool” game is paramount 😮
@@hoanpham4545 this is an excellent point.
Teach guys to PITCH not just throw hard. Learn to change speeds and locate.
I agree with you 100% John Smoltz has said to reduce your pitch speed so that you can put it where you want. Location is the key. Jordan Hicks is a great example, He can pitch over 100, but can't locate his pitches. He has so many Walks, because he can't control them. Learn to pitch rather than just throw. MLB hitters can hit 100 MPH pitches when they are down the middle.
The guys can't just PITCH like back in the day. Pitchers back in the day didn't have every pitched tracked and logged to be used for/against them in arbitration or free agency. They could take it easy on the 8 and 9 hole hitters and not be penalized because avg velo wasn't a stat back then.
Have to change how pitchers are incentivized/rewarded before you’re able to get them to buy into “pitching” and not just throwing hard.
@@millertime773 No doubt about that. Also IDK about how they are trained in ST. Most are "dead arm" when they leave to start new season.
@@millertime773I don’t think it would be all that hard these days for an actual pitcher to get a starting spot. It seems like every team in MLB today has 2 or 3 starters that can’t get beyond 5 innings and it’s not like they have a 2.50 ERA, either. If nearly every pitching staff was absolutely stacked with shutdown pitchers that would be one thing, but it seems pretty clear that there is much room for innovation.
It's hard for teams and pitchers not to fall into temptation. Remember when Jacob deGrom had a 1.08 ERA at the all-star break? Well, according to Fangraphs, his average four-seamer velocity that year was over 99 MPH, and was right around 100 mph before he finally got too hurt to pitch. Imagine the insanity of a starter throwing fastballs as hard as Aroldis Chapman. Too many teams read that as, "See how effective you can be when you throw max effort?" and not enough teams see it as, "See how you're going to blow out your arm when you are always throwing max effort?"
Joel Zumaya, anyone?
do you know how dumb the majority of ball coaches are? they're great at their job, but there is a reason they stuck with baseball as a career lol
I like tying the starter to the DH. In fact, I’d insist that only the starting pitcher can be DH’d for. If you want to change pitchers in the 2nd, fine, but your relief pitcher is now in the DH’s spot of the batting lineup.
What John just said about the lack of grip on the baseball confirms my fear that banning the sticky stuff killed Jacob deGrom. I was worried about it the minute I heard about it a few years ago. I knew there was a big game coming up against the Padres who were the best team in the league that Jacob was going to have to pitch. It would be his first big test without the sticky stuff. I was worried he would have to put his forearm at risk, and grip too tight and have to justify his previous brilliance all in one game. I think he screwed up his arm that very game (or one of the games that followed). (And yet again, the Mets are the cautionary tale).
Wow, i actually kinda like this rule. It makes pitxhers have to pitch again, and gives more bench players more opportunities. Plus, i feel like this rule would be a better balance between playing the old NL way and the AL/modern way.
So, yes, teams can have a professional hitter bat for the starting pitcher, but tgise two players are one and the same in the lineup, for as long as the starting pitcher remains in the game.
Furthermore, this rule incorporates more creative thinking for in-game management, as well as for roster construction. Perhaps instead of a 35 year old slow slugger batting 5th at DH, the team may incorporate a speedster to bat 9th. Maybe they bat the slugger 1st to maximize at-bats? How does the rest of the lineup look after that? Its a lot to chew on. And i feel like adding in elements that make the game more of a thinker, as opposed to pitching the hardest throwers and batting the best sluggers as much and as often as possible.
I like it.
A. I first heard of the 100-pitch pitch count in the late '80s when it was applied to a 38-year-old-or-so Nolan Ryan coming off an arm injury. That restriction, along with a better paycheck, was on of the reasons he left the 'Stros for the Rangers.
B. Mike Marshall
Javier Assad's pitching performance last night during Sunday Night Baseball on ESPN was ruined because of bad ball and strike calls by the Umpire behind Home Plate!
..He wasn't getting corner strike calls even though K-Zone showed he was hitting the corners like a marksman.
So he had to go farther inside the strike zone to get called strikes. But when he did, Atlanta started hitting him hard, and soon knocked him out of the game.
It's passed time for an AUTOMATED STRIKE ZONE!
..Just have an indication buzzer going-off in the Home Plate Umpire's earpiece.
(Enough games have been ruined already.)
Get it right, MLB!
Asking MLB to “get it right” is a tall order……but I hope they do.
i can't stand his announcing but the one thing I enjoy hearing him talk about is pitching.
I've heard the dh being tied to the starter before and love the idea but can't see the union agreeing to it.
You can’t end arm problems but you can drastically reduce major issues such as TJ surgery by teaching them how to pitch instead of trying to throw 100mph + on every pitch
I’d be on board with instituting a two pitcher substitution per game rule. Anything else is a position player. Would really make it interesting and force teams to have less specialists and more all-around pitchers and closers. Not to mention it would force players to merge into multi roles. You’d suddenly see position players that can pitch become uber important, and closers and specialists that can hit and field become important.
Interesting
I think that the time for that was either before the 94 strike or maybe during the doping tribunals. We could get there eventually, but we'll need to implement John's recommendation here first. What you suggest should be the ultimate result of that change, but let the managers have the freedom to come to that conclusion themselves.
John, old timer here, I think pitchers are too upright to get more spin. Problem is they are not driving with their legs which puts more stress on the arm and elbow. Their drive leg knee never gets close to the ground. Agree?
Tom Seaver used to have dirt spots on his knees. In his career with the Mets, he never blew his arm out.
This. My Dad, who pitched in the Minors for a while, always taught me to use my legs for as long a stride as possible to give you the velocity, not just your arm. There is an early 1990’s card of Nolan Ryan from an overhead shot, and his front foot is almost completely off the cutout and on the grass. I got used to it and knew people like Strasburg would not last because all he used was his arm.
Pitchers back in the day didn't have every pitched tracked and logged to be used for/against them in arbitration or free agency. They could take it easy on the 8 and 9 hole hitters and not be penalized because avg velo wasn't a stat back then.
@@raveonedThe thing is…….. you’re going to be outcompeted by the guy who uses his arm aggressively
Sure he might blow out his elbow within a few years, but he’s still going to outcompete you
That’s a fundamental ‘problem’ to which there might not be any good ‘solution’
The real problem is why do pitchers feel like they need to get more spin? It's to miss bats. It's what get pitchers to the MLB and get paid.
I would not complain a bit if the game had more Jamie Moyers, Tim Wakefields, and Mark Eichhorns.
Pedro Martinez never had arm troubles. Maybe ask him.
Pedro didn't have every pitch he threw archived in a stat log to be used for/against him in arbitration or free agency. He could take it easy on a batter here or there.
I don't think that's quite accurate. He didn't have long-term arm problems, but he routinely missed starts with Boston due to minor injuries. The two legendary seasons everyone talks about, 1999 and 2000, were years he didn't hit 30 starts. By the time he was 34, he couldn't throw enough innings to qualify for the ERA title.
For comparison's sake, look at Randy Johnson, who between the ages of 35-42 only had one season of fewer than 33 starts, and only two seasons of fewer than 225 IP (and one of those missed seasons was 205 IP).
Huh? The knock on Pedro was always that he didn’t pitch enough innings, so when Cy Young talk would start every year, we would have this debate about whether or not Pedro should even be eligible because of his injuries/fatigue.
@@AV57 there was NEVER a debate on whether or not pedro pitched enough to win the Cy Young award.
He won 3 cy youngs. 2 he got every first place vote. 1 he got 25 of 28.
Although not a prime driver of it, another thing that's not helping is the resurgence of the split finger fastball. Although not definitively linked to elbow injuries it went out of fashion in the '90s due to soaring injury numbers. But it's seeing a resurgence and injuries are going up. Exhibit one: Shohei Ohtani.
There needs to be a pitching coach that is a rebel with what’s being pushed today.
Preach it, Smoltzy!!!
We have to tie the DH to the pitcher. Designated Batter is what it should be called. You'd either pinch hit or double switch. Maybe you could double switch to keep the DB in the game and make the swap in the field. That would keep the elderly DH's who can't field around which was a feature of the DH. Either way, pitching changes are expensive.
Othani starts the game as the DH, but when the starter is pulled, he takes the mound. How's that for a double switch?
@@Donald_the_Potholer before they changed the dh rule to let him stay in the game I was amazed Maddon didn't do this. There were times he'd go to the outfield to stay in the lineup and later in the season the Angels wouldn't even do that.
The smart thing would be to have him start as the dh and come in the game in the 3rd inning so he get his bat for the entire game, except the rare times he gets shelled.
Preach
And then bullpen arms start breaking because the managers don't want to switch to his third option at DH.
Interesting
I'll be honest, I didn't understand a thing John Smoltz said here.
The pitch clock is part of it. The other reason is that pitchers are taught to throw hard instead of learning to command their pitches, learn to throw to the location of catcher glove, pitch with their whole body. That's why kids are getting arm problems so early.
@@Mittens5044 pitch clock has nothing to do with it. Its just Velo and spin rate. You have to grip it tighter, and in combo of throwing hard, its gonna be a disaster. Getting a few seconds of rest per pitch pre pitch clock had 0 effect. Its getting worse as AVG velo goes higher and spin rate goes higher.
@@Mittens5044 What I didn't understand was what Smoltz was saying about using pitchers as the DH.
Understood -- and agreed -- with every word. It's not even rocket science. Human bodies aren't designed to undertake that kind of repetitive stress without giving out.
@@johnhenryNCI think what he was saying is proposing a rule where a team would lose the DH as soon as their starting pitcher leaves the game.
Teams should make their uniforms modeled off of Smoltz's black and white striped shirt. So dizzying to look at that opponent's batters wouldn't be able to contend.
so pitching more innings will reduce injuries? is this the solution?
He’s saying that it if teams were forced to actually care about their starting pitcher it would lessen injuries. He noted that pitch count wasn’t actually related to injuries. It’s HOW they’re pitching that is related to injuries.
He’s trying to get teams to consider the starting pitcher a marathon instead of a sprint. You can redline your car for a little while and come out ahead if you’re allowed to just put a new car in the race early on, and do that again and again. But if you’re basically forced to make that first car last a lot longer, you’re going to revise your strategy and not redline the whole race, which in turn will make that car last a lot longer, despite driving more miles.
@@jimyeats this 100%
It’s more about forcing managers to realize that they have to condition their pitchers mentally and physically to throw strikes and pitch to contact. We’ve seen that baseball can be played like that. Pitchers, with the right strategy, can reliably get batters out in 3 pitches if the batter knows that he has to swing.
GUYS! Arm injuries are here to stay. Why? Analytics.
Before about 2007, a pitcher could choose which batters he was going to use max effort on. All of that changed when EVERY PITCH'S behavior was tracked.
Now if a guy eases up to conserve energy on a weak hitting guy in the 9 hole, it may cause his average velo or spin rate to be affected negatively. That could info is then used in contract negotiations.
Analytics has made it impossible for a pitcher to throw any pitch without max effort and that's why injuries will never go away.
I don’t think any MLB GM has become THAT analytically driven. If a pitcher gets outs, regardless of how he does it, he’s going to get a contract.
Why can japan use pretacked balls but mlb can’t? It’s so stupid and frustrating
SMOLTZIE!!!! Bingo!!!!
They used metrics to determine what gets outs. They pay premium salaries for that. The metrics do not account for biology, physiology. Pitchers who control speed and location can last 20 years and go 7 innings every start, but those aren't valued since the introduction of metrics. Hurlers who throw fast with incredible spin rate will blow up their arm within a few years -- all of them. It's not a question of if, but when with a hurler. MLB pays Hurlers big signing money and long contracts. Changing the reward system to reward Pitchers vs Hurlers is what Smoltzy is talking about.
100% agree. See my comment. Unless analytics go away, the injuries are here to stay....and we all know analytics aren't going anywhere
@EdTignor For now, that's the case. But that's because roster stability is an externality in the current rewards system. This suggestion will force a change in the analytics models to account for it. Systems that evolve will profit; systems that don't will flounder.
@@Donald_the_Potholer I absolutely know that all the measuring of pitches will never go away. There is no solution. A few years back, a Dodgers GM was asked why he didn't fork over big dollars for some free agent pitcher and he said something like "I don't pay big for pitchers. Pitchers break."
No way it's pitch count nor pitch clock. Many threw more, and often faster frequency than the clock, in the past. Laughable. It is the redlining of the spin and velocity, due to metrics, which is destroying the arms. Tommy John surgery is now just planned for. Not if, but when. Smoltz is right.
Reduced pay while in IL
There is no way to fix it. Big velocity and big spin mean becoming a millionaire. One contract in MLB is all it takes. I'll take the money....and risk the elbow.
There’s no way to fix it with the rules on the books now. That’s why the rules need to change. That will change the incentives.
Either change the baseball to provide more grip so that pitchers can create spin without having to grip so hard or allow the sticky stuff. Pitchers have been using something to help grip since forever and now they can't, so they grip too hard and that cause injuries. The other cause is max effort every pitch. Leave the DH alone but provide incentives for pitching longer than 5 innings.
The only thing I can think of is implementing speed limits. Any pitch thrown faster than 95mph is a ball. Not ideal for sure but it might help.
Not tied to science, unfortunately. A 94mph fastball down the middle isn’t doing as much damage as a 94mph slider to the far corner.
You can't take talent and drive out of the game, dude. It makes way more sense to punish a pitcher for leaving before 7 innings. I love the idea Smoltz' outlined.
@@jeremydavidson9194 I don’t disagree with you. I’m just not sure anything else will work. Baseball teams/managers are addicted to pure max effort velocity. I’m sure they would be willing to lose the DH every game after 5 innings if it meant being able to just keep sending out pitchers to throw max effort for 90 pitches. I doubt his idea would really change anything.
Pitchers back in the day didn't have every pitch tracked and logged to be used for/against them in arbitration or free agency. They could take it easy on the 8 and 9 hole hitters and not be penalized because avg velo wasn't a stat back then. Unless analytics goes away, arm injuries are here to stay. 😢
hahah how about it steph curry hits a shot from more than 30 feet out it doesn't count. home runs over 425 feet are outs!
Smoltz makes valid points, but what he says about the pitch-clock and the reward system are two propositions that contradict themselves a little bit, in my opinion of course: if pitchers are rewarded for max effort it would only make sense to alleviate the stress on their arm with a longer rest between pitches. Short rest-time equals less effective recovery
People are really overestimating thr “recovery” that an extra 20 seconds adjusting gloves would give to the pitcher.
Agreed, 20 second rest period won’t make a difference when guys who could normally throw 91-93 are trying to hit 95-97 every pitch.
pitcher injuries have been going up every year for years. this was before the pitch clock was even a thing. it has nothing to do with the pitch clock.
That's a cute expression and everyone uses it but it's not accurate. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is stupidity not insanity.
No it is insanity
2:15. That fan is freaking me out.
It's MLB. There's an endless supply of "next guy up." Teach them to manage the signing bonus because that might be their last big payday. Bring back the knuckle ball. But, do NOT tie it to the BIG hitters. Barry proved we like the LONG ball.
There's also such a thing as a roster cap. Also, each team has, what, a total of 100 reserves among their respective minor league system?
what would bringing back the knuckle ball too. there were never more than a few guys at a time who threw it. if we had 2-3 knuckballers now what has that solved?
@tommyfu9271
Yes .... A lost art. There are so many advantages to having one.
anything over 90mph is a ball. That's the answer. Same with a spin rate limit if that's necessary. We have the technology.
Move the mound if needed to maintain the right offense/pitching ratio
What.... no. That's not "the answer". That's actually the single dumbest idea I've ever heard in my life. So, congrats on that I guess.
Lay off the shrooms.
Yes this is probably the only way to really prevent the arm injuries. People will comment here and say you are crazy. But it’s the only real way to stop the injuries.
@@theburnetts "but I want to change nothing and just magically have the injuries go away" says everyone who doesn't actually care about the injuries.
Pitchers back in the day didn't have every pitch tracked and logged to be used for/against them in arbitration or free agency. They could take it easy on the 8 and 9 hole hitters and not be penalized because avg velo wasn't a stat back then. Unless analytics goes away, arm injuries are here to stay. 😢
Old man yells at cloud