It’s been a long running frustration of mine that so many just think that if they tt anything outside that job is a good one. They don’t actually take the time to look at the whole install. Great video well explained.
Great video as all ways,nice to see somebody talking some sense about this subject ever since e v chargers come around it’s been let’s bang an earth electrode on everything outside the house area
Thanks. I have things I believe in and right or wrong stand by them. I do understand these events need to work for the exhibitors. But just feels a bit itchy to me been totally honest. Especially when everyone talks such a good game about helping the future of the trade and encouraging people into it. Many of the exhibators in fact. On a personal level its really disappointing as I wanted to meet a lot of people and spend a fair bit of money on new toys 🤣. But sometimes got to put other things first. #apprentice121
@@electrician247 I was going to go but I'm totally on your side on this one. We have lads doing apprenticeships that spend £1000s on tools and love what they do. Its a shame that they are pushed to the side. Also Our admin order most of our accessories for us and deal with manufacturers ect on a daily basis. Also would be a good outing for the staff. Hopefully changes are made because our industry is more than just qualified electricians
Really great video thank you. Some interesting points. I'm currently in the middle of planning a hot tub install and after reading what seems like a million point of views (all of which have very valid but sometimes conflicting points), I've prepped a single 8ft earth rod to the rear of my shed CU that is to power the hot tub that's at least 10M away in all directions from any buildings or utilities (we live in a semi rural area), so not likely for any external current sources. There's no other extrantous earth sources so I don't believe we have anything to worry about there. My sparky originally said that I should just go with the PME earth (I guess mostly because he didn't consider any of the hottub characteristics), but with my family using the hot tub and the possibility of a tingling sensation when stepping out really putting me off, I looked for a 'better' solution... I plan to not use the PME at the shed CU and instead use the single earth rod. I know you said ideally it should be multiple rods, but it's not practical. Given the reading from the rod install are within reasonable reading - would you say this seems like a safe install given the specifications I mentioned?
Top video Mark, Nice to see someone go against the general consensus of "bang an earth rod in" or in the case of out buildings "just TT it!". I had the same discussion with a spark at my local wholesalers, he was describing his current job which was an out building, he'd run 16mm SWA out, divorced the suppliers earth and called it a good do, he was mentioning bonding in the outbuilding when I queried what it was, and it turned out to be an (old) water main that they still use for the garden. I asked where that water main comes from, and he confirmed it was from the house, I basically said that he had connected back to the PME by bonding that, but he didn't get it, no matter how I explained it. Safe to say that you do a far better job of explaining yourself
I had this when we just converted a guys Tractor Garage, separate 100 Amp supplies but the previous people that built the house had brought a 10mm single earth over to bond the plastic water main supplying the boiler plant heating the house - the Garage is on TT with a Tesla Charger. So had to remove the bond to keep the properties separate as to ensure the house on PME didn't get induced voltage down the earth etc.
@@effervescence5664 ? Do you mean removed bond because: a fault current could be exported back to the pme house earthing terminal via the single earth cable, assuming a phase/earth fault conducts to the metal heating pipes to which the single earth was bonded ?
Elex what a disgrace! This is a great piece on hot tubs, I’ve done a few and like you say Earthing is the single biggest thought when installing. I struggled to get answers from manufacturers and my CPS. All installs were supplied from a PME supply, so loss of neutral was the next biggest consideration. Like you I don’t have a problem with connecting to PME, however as it was still relatively early days I returned to my knowledge from installing EV charging points (before the likes of podpoint etc came to market) and the use of an Interlock switch was most common, and taking into consideration wether the vehicle was within the zone when charging or outside the zone! So based on this understanding I would take the PME to the supply side of the isolator then divorce at this point and ‘bang’ a rod in connected to the hot tub at the unit on earthing point! Test and test and test 😂 to convince myself it was ‘safe’ 🤷♂️ I’m thinking now I should have been surrounding the tub with earth rods rather than just the one or just accepting that my PME was reliable and the RCBO was acceptable, luckily there was never lighting or power to be factored in. You’ve opened my eyes wider 👍
I was considering going but I've also heard from people at SW college that's their view on unemployed apprentices so I won't be going either. People seem to always forget that the regulations permit manufacturers instructions. I get it so often when I walk onto site whether I have my Gas Engineer hat on or my Sparking hat on people are concerned that the work I'm inspecting isn't done to the word of the regulations, ignoring the circumstances it has been put in under or the manufacturers literature. It's nice to have people I can also talk with over concerns in some situations, I am after all only in my thirties and qualified in two fields that are very demanding it's impossible to know everything but having that combined experience does allow me to implement logical reasoning rather than blindly following guidance without fully understanding why. Edit: Dan/ DSS extension is a brilliant watch, loving Charlie and Jon.
@@electrician247 Always mate, you're the reason I've decided to teach someone again. I don't think I'll stand up in front of a class again before old age but I am enjoying it.
I installed a hot tub on a pme system in accordance with section 702. The manufacturer said the hot tub is class 2, so on that basis there is no chance of any electrical voltage appearing within or around the hot tub as a result of a fault.
From my position your best video yet so thanks very much. You do an excellent job in considering all the possible implications on site which shows how difficult the task is. I'm interested in your comment on the hot tub being on a raised platform, why would that be different to it being sat 150mm lower unless the platform is made from insulated material or has an insulating barrier. Where I work the ground conditions are very hard/stoney so difficult to get
Thanks for watching and the comment! This is it with bases/platforms. Be it timber or stone. How insulating are they. In this case it has 100mm kingspan and a dpc. Not for the hot tub but an attempt to keep the floor less cold in winter. So all things considered I thought it might help lol. Also been playing around with condudisc, earth rods, bentonite etc. Neil did some posts on sm with values under 1 ohm from them. We have very chalky ground on the yorkshire wolds so often need 2 or 3 rods. The element in the water is the point many come back to with class 2. Its up to the manufacturer to test and state class. Some use a process of pumps, vessels and pipe work so the heating element is never in direct contact with the water in the tub. How effective that is well thats on them and product testing they have to do I guess. I think cascaded rcd is a good way to go. Quite a few hot tubs have 10mA rcd protection built in now. Thanks for watching and joining in the comments!
Ignoring the earthing arrangements etc are you happy with the position of the isolator to the hot tub? As in is it going to be more than 2 metres away.
Nice video. Absolute shame about how the organizers have excluded the younger apprentices. I suspect though they wanted to get more buyers in of electrical equipment, but if you don’t bring the youngster in you lose out on a future generation.
Mark, The boffins in the know now say that it is recommended to put an earth electrode in addition to the domestic supply, where the supply is PME. in case of a pen fault. Why should this be any different for a Hot Tub which is connected to the PME supply?
It isn't any different this job has the perfect array of complementary earthing systems. I would discourage the use of rods in urban areas. For all the reasons discussed in this video. Lots more options available.
Brilliant video, really agree with your points and really appreciate your attitude, I also am unsure about why clashing opinions needs to always turn into an ugly shouting match when we all only have people's saftey in mind.
This is exactly it Chris. I dont get it. We can all learn from each other. I welcome discussion. But to often it turns into aggressive nonsense and ego. I am often wrong and happy to learn and share what I know. Thanks for watching and joining in the comments.
@@electrician247 yeah everyday is a school day as they say. Also I reached out to you via LinkedIn a few months back about some advice re hiring an apprentice as just a 1 man band and thanks he enrolled and begins next week so far so good!
never knew you could mix TT and TNCS always told not to, don't really understand why, wish it could all be TNS but that would be too simple good video made some good points, good job
In the 18th edition I don’t know the regulation number but it does state they recommend an earth electrode as an addition to your tncs arrangement. I was surprised by this but after thinking about it makes sense. It would basically be like an extra bonding conductor limiting voltages if a pen fault occurred. If 20 ohms or less it would actually be quite effective. But in reality most people don’t want to be hammering in earth electrodes In busy streets where there’s potential services.
Hi you mentioned that it's only a home with 4 people with regards your chat about MD. I have a large bungalow midwales. Applied ladt year for 1 ev charger all good, 1 month ago applied for heat pump all good. Last week aplied to fit another ev charger as we are going 100% green, we'll as near. But DNO say no I require 3 phase. I am arguing with them that the goverment wants me to go green but I cannot in practice. I will not be the only one in this postion.
Its going to be a growing problem Gino. They will be concerned about everything drawing load at the same time. Maybe they would allow it if you have a system than uses load limiting technology so as zappi and hypervolt etc. Thanks for watching and joining in the comments
@@electrician247 that's not an issue to lower the load but when 2 vehicles nerd charging to use the next day for work plus it takes a good 7 hours to charge evs at home even on a 7.4 kw charger.
I think your argument on the multiple earth is a sound one you have more than one source so adding another one seems less useful especially after testing and was well below the 20ohms threshold. I presume you used the 3- stake fall of potential method? We use in the states a 25 ohms acceptable threshold for earth/ground resistance. I do however think there should be annual testing of hot tubs and swimming pools where electricity is concerned where risks are so much higher we do have that requirement in some states now that annual testing saves lives. I do also think a faster tripping and low current trip RCDs should be used for hot tubs. A 30mA as in UK in my view is to slow to trip at too higher a current. As wet body resistance can fall dramatically those RCDs could create risks that I would not be comfortable with. At some point UK will move to 5mA and 4-5mS tripping RCDs this will become more common in future like we have in the USA. I have heard that many hot tubs in UK come from USA and some have come with an inline GFCIs which are faster tripping. However you would not want to use it in part because cables could not be upto spec compared to an SWA. Most swimming pools in USA have a mesh grounding all around the pool and bonding is applied to exposed metal parts like handles for steps into a pool. My friend had an EV installed installed recently but no testing was done on the grounding aspects I did a fall of potential test and it was around 35 ohms, for me that was too high we did install an additional 8-foot ground rod with the appropriate distance away to address step potential and avoiding commingling even though it was hard ground and we managed to get ground resistance down to about 4.4 ohms.
Thanks for watching! Totally agree with the RCD aspect. Many of the tubs here have 10mA built into the control electronics/wiring centres in the tubs. Didnt make sense for another earth electrode in this case. Especially with the oil pipe bonded and in the ground next to the tub. Always 3 stake tested. Thats why we had to get the meggers out on this one.
@@Tooligan2021helloyouTooligans Just watched your Pro Pac video the other day. Decent content, I use the TpXL for my main grab bag but use the same VDE screw driver setup you do to save space - inspired by that video. I bought the VDE Turbo though for when I'm carrying out EICR's.
In general If you have Tn-S or TN-C-C. If you have done your home work and selected the right size cables for all bonding . Your Ze should be ok. So using a earth rod just is just a get out clause for bad electrics, They say hot tubs arent in 702, but anybody who usuing regs not to do stuff. Isn't looking after no one except someones wallet. Some think Regs are there for a minuim requirement. Personally whats the difference, size ,water temp? Like to see update.
The regs are a high base line for everyone to attain. Simple as that. Hot tubs have a product stand to connect into electrical systems. As shown in the video and others earth rods are far from a magic bullet despite some particularly misleading articles in industry magazines. The authors sadly lacking experience on the subject matter
Posting this as I have struggles to find the correct info. I recently stayed at a holiday let that had a hot tub. It was fed from a 32amp B type breaker into a 110v 16amp switched socket next to the tub. The cable from the plug was SWA. I’m not a qualified sparky but I worked along side a qualified sparky as his mechanical partner for a few years so picked up a bit of knowledge on the practical Side. I also have 18th edition cert. All my electrical work is done under supervision of the sparky and he checks and tests all my work. I do not do electrical Work outside of my job. I just wondered if this installation is correct as it rang some alarm bells on the equipment used and the SWA into a plug 🤷🏻 Cheers if you reply with your thoughts people .
This video glossed over the key danger... If there was a PEN fault you'd be on thin ice. The installers of the metal outside lights knew the dangers. They wanted to ensure that they had good earthing in the event of a pen fault, thus the many spikes. Your hot tub install may be lethal under PEN fault conditions. You mention series RCD - as you know - an RCD will not operate under PEN fault conditions. The IET has stated : 'Whilst connecting a hot tub installation to a PME earthing arrangement is not precluded, it is difficult to see how it could be justified by the electrical designer given the information available.' This video doesn't justify it.
Thanks for watching and taking time to comment. I welcome the debate on this but it is important we dont suggest my installs are potentially lethal. That is crossing a line for me, especially when they are not. I will answer the comment though as I dont think that was your overall intention. The IET article in wiring matters is the authors opinion and interpretation not the position of the IET as an entirety. Even so I agree with many points in that article. I referenced pen faults on more than one occasion and feel a 40 minute video is a good effort to cover as many key points as I can. The earthing system on this is very much based on safety. As regards the lighting in the garden that is connected in parallel to the PME not in place of. Who do you think might have designed that 😉. Along with the earth grid under the workshop again in parallel not in place of. Having the sub 20 ohm value is critical to reduce step voltages and touch voltages under lost PEN conditions. Driving an additonal earth electrode in next to the hot tub would make zero difference to this particular installation which is among the more robust to pen fault issues. As regards RCDs I mention this in the video that they dont work in PEN fault conditions. The IET have suggested section 702 is followed. Quite clearly in 702 it states if a product standard is in place this should be followed in place of these regulations. So by following and accepting the product standard you are complying with section 702 in full. In that product standard allowance has been made to connect into distributors earthing of all varieties. When we cloud debate with opinion and rhetoric the whole argument is lost unfortunately. As I said I have no issue with the use of earth electrodes. We have used them before ourselves many times on hot tubs. Equally pen fault detection can be used and series rcd protection. We have many tools in the box. In urban areas earth electrodes are not even guaranteed to give you divorce from the pme and thus pen fault. It is not that simple sadly. The reliability of the DNO tncs PME is an issue with more things than just hot tubs and we rarely make any allowance for it. Perhaps future regulations will dictate we should and over ride product standards. But at the moment that is not the case. Falling back to my install we havent seen the actual tub as yet. As I alluded to in the video perhaps the earthing system is totally irrelevant in this case.... Thanks again for the comments and I take your point of view with PEN faults.
@@electrician247 I've been reconsidering what I wrote with your answer... I hadn't really thought properly about the fact you'd exported the earth to the lighting etc. By doing that, under pen fault condition, you'll still have a dangerous touch voltage given your 20 ohm value. You increase the chance of harm under pen fault by exporting the supplier earth. So... the first dangerous thing is exporting the earth to the lights. The workshop/lights is likely far enough away a TT is safe under pen fault. I'm not sure the hot tub is. The combination of tncs and TT you have created seems to create more danger. I maintain the second danger is the fact you've exported the earth to the hot tub. There may be reasons why you don't want to just put a spike in for a hot tub, but there's no reason to export a PME.
@@ThePa1ch Its sub 20 ohm not 20 ohm. That figure is derived from the IET guidance to earthing and bonding. We need to ask the question if we are exporting or expanding the supplier earth. Often its the later. Quite how you determine so much insight from a TH-cam video is bizarre. Especially when you clearly have not watched the entire thing. I sugest you read the IET guidance docs and also the product standard for hot tubs. You may have a better understanding then. This particular install has been done with involvement of the DNO on the street lighting and external buildings. I have been doing this long enough to know how professionals complete installations. We have an exceptional supportive earth system to this installation. Parallel earth electrodes are a brilliant way to ensure safety and are very common in many commercial settings. Thats clue number 2 along with clue number 1 which is the earthing system is totally irrelevant. I do appreciate the input and dont disagree with the potnetial for pen faults to cause issues. That can effect a great many bits of electrical equipment. Its a consideration for sure. One the product standard for hot tubs covers actually. A good read if you have never taken in. Have a good evening
@@ThePa1ch I should make clear as by my wink emoji you think I designed the system on the lighting and workshop. This is private shared road and the DNO designed and stipulated the system to be used. They cabled and rodded everything up. Just to remove any confusion as you seem hell bent on trying to discredit a very reasonable and actually pretty factual point of view. Show me where using pme is prohibited in any regulation, product standard or guidance document? Also explain how using an earth electrode ensures that can not be a factor under lost pen? Especially in urban areas. Swimming pools are usually served with a sub 20 ohm earth grid in parallel with the pme. This is one of the few ways to reduce the potnetial problems to a minimum. One we have on this particular installation actually in a round about way. Single earth electrodes are not the way to comply with 702 or limit pen fault issues in many scenarios. This is clearly shown in 702 and earthing/bonding guidance doc. So again we make statements such as dangerous and lethal to try and sound a smart arse but the debate is in the actual subject matter not your or my opinion. Physics is a beautiful thing.
@@electrician247Debate : a discussion between people in which they express different opinions about something. Not sure what you think a debate is... If there was a pen fault in this installation with an 11 ohm Ze then 'physics' would mean that people touching earth outside might die. If you can use 'physics' to tell me otherwise, feel free. I mentioned the distances involved as I completely understand that if an earth spike is put down in an urban environmental it's not necessarily safe under pen fault. This isn't an urban environment. Exporting a PME earth is dangerous. A well distanced earth spike with separation from the PME earth eliminates this danger. Pen fault detection exist for a reason where this isn't possible. Do what you like.
If anyone was electrocuted even though you've taken everything into account you'd wind up in court because someone would have to be hung for it. For this reason I wont get involved with them, theres plenty of work out there where you dont need to get involved in a risk assessment that's so debatable you need a lawyer to sanction it.
Yeah I do my best with the editing skills I have ans time to do it. Have quietened them down a bit on more recent videos. Not easy for a spark to do lol.
It’s been a long running frustration of mine that so many just think that if they tt anything outside that job is a good one. They don’t actually take the time to look at the whole install. Great video well explained.
Exactly my point Thomas. It is frustrating at times but good to chat and share ideas. Thanks for watching!
Great video as all ways,nice to see somebody talking some sense about this subject ever since e v chargers come around it’s been let’s bang an earth electrode on everything outside the house area
Thanks for watching Nigel. Appreciate the kind comment. Yeah its not the answer in my opinion. Well not on its own anyway!
Totally agree about the Elex show. Great to see you sticking up for everyone involved in our industry 💙 great content. 👍
Thanks. I have things I believe in and right or wrong stand by them. I do understand these events need to work for the exhibitors. But just feels a bit itchy to me been totally honest. Especially when everyone talks such a good game about helping the future of the trade and encouraging people into it. Many of the exhibators in fact.
On a personal level its really disappointing as I wanted to meet a lot of people and spend a fair bit of money on new toys 🤣. But sometimes got to put other things first. #apprentice121
@@electrician247 I was going to go but I'm totally on your side on this one. We have lads doing apprenticeships that spend £1000s on tools and love what they do. Its a shame that they are pushed to the side. Also Our admin order most of our accessories for us and deal with manufacturers ect on a daily basis. Also would be a good outing for the staff. Hopefully changes are made because our industry is more than just qualified electricians
Everything nice, but something missing, is the Pv, and heat pump( cooling and heating). Great video well done Mark👍
Really great video thank you. Some interesting points. I'm currently in the middle of planning a hot tub install and after reading what seems like a million point of views (all of which have very valid but sometimes conflicting points), I've prepped a single 8ft earth rod to the rear of my shed CU that is to power the hot tub that's at least 10M away in all directions from any buildings or utilities (we live in a semi rural area), so not likely for any external current sources. There's no other extrantous earth sources so I don't believe we have anything to worry about there. My sparky originally said that I should just go with the PME earth (I guess mostly because he didn't consider any of the hottub characteristics), but with my family using the hot tub and the possibility of a tingling sensation when stepping out really putting me off, I looked for a 'better' solution... I plan to not use the PME at the shed CU and instead use the single earth rod. I know you said ideally it should be multiple rods, but it's not practical. Given the reading from the rod install are within reasonable reading - would you say this seems like a safe install given the specifications I mentioned?
Sounds fine to me Andrew!
@@electrician247 Really appreciate the response, thank you 👍 It's always good to get a second opinion to sanity check things.
@Andrew Higginson so long as the rod is reasonable close to the hot tub you should be fine.
Top video Mark, Nice to see someone go against the general consensus of "bang an earth rod in" or in the case of out buildings "just TT it!".
I had the same discussion with a spark at my local wholesalers, he was describing his current job which was an out building, he'd run 16mm SWA out, divorced the suppliers earth and called it a good do, he was mentioning bonding in the outbuilding when I queried what it was, and it turned out to be an (old) water main that they still use for the garden. I asked where that water main comes from, and he confirmed it was from the house, I basically said that he had connected back to the PME by bonding that, but he didn't get it, no matter how I explained it.
Safe to say that you do a far better job of explaining yourself
I had this when we just converted a guys Tractor Garage, separate 100 Amp supplies but the previous people that built the house had brought a 10mm single earth over to bond the plastic water main supplying the boiler plant heating the house - the Garage is on TT with a Tesla Charger. So had to remove the bond to keep the properties separate as to ensure the house on PME didn't get induced voltage down the earth etc.
Thanks Sean. Very kind mate. Always stuff to learn from each other mate.
@@effervescence5664 ? Do you mean removed bond because: a fault current could be exported back to the pme house earthing terminal via the single earth cable, assuming a phase/earth fault conducts to the metal heating pipes to which the single earth was bonded ?
I truly like your opinion/ theory re the hot tub installation... my thoughts exactly.
Thanks for watching appreciate it mate
Great channel mate, kudos to you for raising awareness and trying support youngsters who are trying to get into the trade. Great info too
Thanks, very kind!
I'll watch this later Mark, I'm sure it'll be fantastic. Keep them coming 👍.
Elex what a disgrace!
This is a great piece on hot tubs, I’ve done a few and like you say Earthing is the single biggest thought when installing.
I struggled to get answers from manufacturers and my CPS.
All installs were supplied from a PME supply, so loss of neutral was the next biggest consideration. Like you I don’t have a problem with connecting to PME, however as it was still relatively early days I returned to my knowledge from installing EV charging points (before the likes of podpoint etc came to market) and the use of an Interlock switch was most common, and taking into consideration wether the vehicle was within the zone when charging or outside the zone!
So based on this understanding I would take the PME to the supply side of the isolator then divorce at this point and ‘bang’ a rod in connected to the hot tub at the unit on earthing point!
Test and test and test 😂 to convince myself it was ‘safe’ 🤷♂️
I’m thinking now I should have been surrounding the tub with earth rods rather than just the one or just accepting that my PME was reliable and the RCBO was acceptable, luckily there was never lighting or power to be factored in.
You’ve opened my eyes wider 👍
Thanks for watching and joining in the comments. I am here to learn and share the bits I know. You make some cracking points.
We can help each other.
I was considering going but I've also heard from people at SW college that's their view on unemployed apprentices so I won't be going either.
People seem to always forget that the regulations permit manufacturers instructions. I get it so often when I walk onto site whether I have my Gas Engineer hat on or my Sparking hat on people are concerned that the work I'm inspecting isn't done to the word of the regulations, ignoring the circumstances it has been put in under or the manufacturers literature. It's nice to have people I can also talk with over concerns in some situations, I am after all only in my thirties and qualified in two fields that are very demanding it's impossible to know everything but having that combined experience does allow me to implement logical reasoning rather than blindly following guidance without fully understanding why.
Edit: Dan/ DSS extension is a brilliant watch, loving Charlie and Jon.
Thanks for watching mate. Such a good series with Dan. I am addicted lol
@@electrician247 Always mate, you're the reason I've decided to teach someone again. I don't think I'll stand up in front of a class again before old age but I am enjoying it.
@@effervescence5664 wow thats incredible mate. Good on you!
I think this definitively definitely gets a thumbs up! 👍
How, as consumers, we be sure our installer has made the correct decision when planning and implementing an install?
Most are clueless consumers. They just want the bubbles on lol
Thanks for watching Mark.
Fantastic content. This is a great view point and very interesting. 👍
Thanks for commenting. Appreciate it.
Helpful thought discussion Mark.
Thanks!
I installed a hot tub on a pme system in accordance with section 702. The manufacturer said the hot tub is class 2, so on that basis there is no chance of any electrical voltage appearing within or around the hot tub as a result of a fault.
From my position your best video yet so thanks very much. You do an excellent job in considering all the possible implications on site which shows how difficult the task is. I'm interested in your comment on the hot tub being on a raised platform, why would that be different to it being sat 150mm lower unless the platform is made from insulated material or has an insulating barrier. Where I work the ground conditions are very hard/stoney so difficult to get
Thanks for watching and the comment!
This is it with bases/platforms. Be it timber or stone. How insulating are they. In this case it has 100mm kingspan and a dpc. Not for the hot tub but an attempt to keep the floor less cold in winter. So all things considered I thought it might help lol.
Also been playing around with condudisc, earth rods, bentonite etc. Neil did some posts on sm with values under 1 ohm from them. We have very chalky ground on the yorkshire wolds so often need 2 or 3 rods.
The element in the water is the point many come back to with class 2. Its up to the manufacturer to test and state class. Some use a process of pumps, vessels and pipe work so the heating element is never in direct contact with the water in the tub. How effective that is well thats on them and product testing they have to do I guess.
I think cascaded rcd is a good way to go. Quite a few hot tubs have 10mA rcd protection built in now.
Thanks for watching and joining in the comments!
Seems that in the USA 10mA RCD may be the equivalent of UK additional protection value of 30mA, I'd like to have confirmation.
Ignoring the earthing arrangements etc are you happy with the position of the isolator to the hot tub? As in is it going to be more than 2 metres away.
Perfectly happy with it. IP69 and will be 2m from the tub 💪
Nice video. Absolute shame about how the organizers have excluded the younger apprentices. I suspect though they wanted to get more buyers in of electrical equipment, but if you don’t bring the youngster in you lose out on a future generation.
I think its a massive shame. Could have maybe helped a youngster meet up with an employer. Seems a shame to me.
Great video Mark debatable subject but well explained 👍
Thanks, definitely debate to be had
spot on Mark, well done
Cheers Brian. Thanks for watching
ISO at 2mtrs away minimum
30ma rcd
Correct amp breaker and cable 👍🏻
I agree with all the above. Thanks for watching.
Great video Mark 😎
Thanks Richard
Mark, The boffins in the know now say that it is recommended to put an earth electrode in addition to the domestic supply, where the supply is PME.
in case of a pen fault. Why should this be any different for a Hot Tub which is connected to the PME supply?
It isn't any different this job has the perfect array of complementary earthing systems.
I would discourage the use of rods in urban areas. For all the reasons discussed in this video. Lots more options available.
Very interesting video Mark. 👍
Thanks for watching
Brilliant video, really agree with your points and really appreciate your attitude, I also am unsure about why clashing opinions needs to always turn into an ugly shouting match when we all only have people's saftey in mind.
This is exactly it Chris. I dont get it. We can all learn from each other. I welcome discussion. But to often it turns into aggressive nonsense and ego.
I am often wrong and happy to learn and share what I know.
Thanks for watching and joining in the comments.
@@electrician247 yeah everyday is a school day as they say. Also I reached out to you via LinkedIn a few months back about some advice re hiring an apprentice as just a 1 man band and thanks he enrolled and begins next week so far so good!
Very good video.... very enlightening
never knew you could mix TT and TNCS always told not to, don't really understand why, wish it could all be TNS but that would be too simple good video made some good points, good job
In the 18th edition I don’t know the regulation number but it does state they recommend an earth electrode as an addition to your tncs arrangement. I was surprised by this but after thinking about it makes sense. It would basically be like an extra bonding conductor limiting voltages if a pen fault occurred. If 20 ohms or less it would actually be quite effective. But in reality most people don’t want to be hammering in earth electrodes In busy streets where there’s potential services.
Hi you mentioned that it's only a home with 4 people with regards your chat about MD. I have a large bungalow midwales. Applied ladt year for 1 ev charger all good, 1 month ago applied for heat pump all good. Last week aplied to fit another ev charger as we are going 100% green, we'll as near. But DNO say no I require 3 phase. I am arguing with them that the goverment wants me to go green but I cannot in practice. I will not be the only one in this postion.
Its going to be a growing problem Gino. They will be concerned about everything drawing load at the same time. Maybe they would allow it if you have a system than uses load limiting technology so as zappi and hypervolt etc.
Thanks for watching and joining in the comments
@@electrician247 that's not an issue to lower the load but when 2 vehicles nerd charging to use the next day for work plus it takes a good 7 hours to charge evs at home even on a 7.4 kw charger.
I think your argument on the multiple earth is a sound one you have more than one source so adding another one seems less useful especially after testing and was well below the 20ohms threshold. I presume you used the 3- stake fall of potential method? We use in the states a 25 ohms acceptable threshold for earth/ground resistance.
I do however think there should be annual testing of hot tubs and swimming pools where electricity is concerned where risks are so much higher we do have that requirement in some states now that annual testing saves lives.
I do also think a faster tripping and low current trip RCDs should be used for hot tubs. A 30mA as in UK in my view is to slow to trip at too higher a current. As wet body resistance can fall dramatically those RCDs could create risks that I would not be comfortable with. At some point UK will move to 5mA and 4-5mS tripping RCDs this will become more common in future like we have in the USA. I have heard that many hot tubs in UK come from USA and some have come with an inline GFCIs which are faster tripping. However you would not want to use it in part because cables could not be upto spec compared to an SWA. Most swimming pools in USA have a mesh grounding all around the pool and bonding is applied to exposed metal parts like handles for steps into a pool.
My friend had an EV installed installed recently but no testing was done on the grounding aspects I did a fall of potential test and it was around 35 ohms, for me that was too high we did install an additional 8-foot ground rod with the appropriate distance away to address step potential and avoiding commingling even though it was hard ground and we managed to get ground resistance down to about 4.4 ohms.
Thanks for watching! Totally agree with the RCD aspect. Many of the tubs here have 10mA built into the control electronics/wiring centres in the tubs.
Didnt make sense for another earth electrode in this case. Especially with the oil pipe bonded and in the ground next to the tub.
Always 3 stake tested. Thats why we had to get the meggers out on this one.
@@electrician247 Oh I wondered why the TIS was missing!
Great video
Thanks for watching! Appreciate it
Great content in your videos, just started my own Channel would appreciate if you could have a look when you have time
@@Tooligan2021helloyouTooligans Just watched your Pro Pac video the other day. Decent content, I use the TpXL for my main grab bag but use the same VDE screw driver setup you do to save space - inspired by that video. I bought the VDE Turbo though for when I'm carrying out EICR's.
In general If you have Tn-S or TN-C-C. If you have done your home work and selected the right size cables for all bonding . Your Ze should be ok. So using a earth rod just is just a get out clause for bad electrics,
They say hot tubs arent in 702, but anybody who usuing regs not to do stuff. Isn't looking after no one except someones wallet. Some think Regs are there for a minuim requirement. Personally whats the difference, size ,water temp?
Like to see update.
The regs are a high base line for everyone to attain. Simple as that.
Hot tubs have a product stand to connect into electrical systems.
As shown in the video and others earth rods are far from a magic bullet despite some particularly misleading articles in industry magazines. The authors sadly lacking experience on the subject matter
@electrician247 just realised meant to say some poeple use regs as a minimal requirement.
Posting this as I have struggles to find the correct info.
I recently stayed at a holiday let that had a hot tub.
It was fed from a 32amp B type breaker into a 110v 16amp switched socket next to the tub.
The cable from the plug was SWA.
I’m not a qualified sparky but I worked along side a qualified sparky as his mechanical partner for a few years so picked up a bit of knowledge on the practical
Side. I also have 18th edition cert.
All my electrical work is done under supervision of the sparky and he checks and tests all my work.
I do not do electrical
Work outside of my job.
I just wondered if this installation is correct as it rang some alarm bells on the equipment used and the SWA into a plug 🤷🏻
Cheers if you reply with your thoughts people .
This video glossed over the key danger... If there was a PEN fault you'd be on thin ice.
The installers of the metal outside lights knew the dangers. They wanted to ensure that they had good earthing in the event of a pen fault, thus the many spikes.
Your hot tub install may be lethal under PEN fault conditions.
You mention series RCD - as you know - an RCD will not operate under PEN fault conditions.
The IET has stated : 'Whilst connecting a hot tub installation to a PME earthing arrangement is not precluded, it is
difficult to see how it could be justified by the electrical designer given the information
available.'
This video doesn't justify it.
Thanks for watching and taking time to comment. I welcome the debate on this but it is important we dont suggest my installs are potentially lethal. That is crossing a line for me, especially when they are not. I will answer the comment though as I dont think that was your overall intention.
The IET article in wiring matters is the authors opinion and interpretation not the position of the IET as an entirety. Even so I agree with many points in that article.
I referenced pen faults on more than one occasion and feel a 40 minute video is a good effort to cover as many key points as I can.
The earthing system on this is very much based on safety. As regards the lighting in the garden that is connected in parallel to the PME not in place of. Who do you think might have designed that 😉. Along with the earth grid under the workshop again in parallel not in place of.
Having the sub 20 ohm value is critical to reduce step voltages and touch voltages under lost PEN conditions. Driving an additonal earth electrode in next to the hot tub would make zero difference to this particular installation which is among the more robust to pen fault issues.
As regards RCDs I mention this in the video that they dont work in PEN fault conditions.
The IET have suggested section 702 is followed. Quite clearly in 702 it states if a product standard is in place this should be followed in place of these regulations. So by following and accepting the product standard you are complying with section 702 in full.
In that product standard allowance has been made to connect into distributors earthing of all varieties.
When we cloud debate with opinion and rhetoric the whole argument is lost unfortunately.
As I said I have no issue with the use of earth electrodes. We have used them before ourselves many times on hot tubs. Equally pen fault detection can be used and series rcd protection. We have many tools in the box.
In urban areas earth electrodes are not even guaranteed to give you divorce from the pme and thus pen fault. It is not that simple sadly.
The reliability of the DNO tncs PME is an issue with more things than just hot tubs and we rarely make any allowance for it. Perhaps future regulations will dictate we should and over ride product standards. But at the moment that is not the case.
Falling back to my install we havent seen the actual tub as yet. As I alluded to in the video perhaps the earthing system is totally irrelevant in this case....
Thanks again for the comments and I take your point of view with PEN faults.
@@electrician247 I've been reconsidering what I wrote with your answer... I hadn't really thought properly about the fact you'd exported the earth to the lighting etc.
By doing that, under pen fault condition, you'll still have a dangerous touch voltage given your 20 ohm value. You increase the chance of harm under pen fault by exporting the supplier earth.
So... the first dangerous thing is exporting the earth to the lights.
The workshop/lights is likely far enough away a TT is safe under pen fault. I'm not sure the hot tub is.
The combination of tncs and TT you have created seems to create more danger.
I maintain the second danger is the fact you've exported the earth to the hot tub.
There may be reasons why you don't want to just put a spike in for a hot tub, but there's no reason to export a PME.
@@ThePa1ch Its sub 20 ohm not 20 ohm. That figure is derived from the IET guidance to earthing and bonding. We need to ask the question if we are exporting or expanding the supplier earth. Often its the later.
Quite how you determine so much insight from a TH-cam video is bizarre. Especially when you clearly have not watched the entire thing.
I sugest you read the IET guidance docs and also the product standard for hot tubs. You may have a better understanding then.
This particular install has been done with involvement of the DNO on the street lighting and external buildings. I have been doing this long enough to know how professionals complete installations.
We have an exceptional supportive earth system to this installation. Parallel earth electrodes are a brilliant way to ensure safety and are very common in many commercial settings. Thats clue number 2 along with clue number 1 which is the earthing system is totally irrelevant.
I do appreciate the input and dont disagree with the potnetial for pen faults to cause issues. That can effect a great many bits of electrical equipment. Its a consideration for sure. One the product standard for hot tubs covers actually. A good read if you have never taken in.
Have a good evening
@@ThePa1ch I should make clear as by my wink emoji you think I designed the system on the lighting and workshop. This is private shared road and the DNO designed and stipulated the system to be used. They cabled and rodded everything up.
Just to remove any confusion as you seem hell bent on trying to discredit a very reasonable and actually pretty factual point of view.
Show me where using pme is prohibited in any regulation, product standard or guidance document? Also explain how using an earth electrode ensures that can not be a factor under lost pen? Especially in urban areas.
Swimming pools are usually served with a sub 20 ohm earth grid in parallel with the pme. This is one of the few ways to reduce the potnetial problems to a minimum. One we have on this particular installation actually in a round about way.
Single earth electrodes are not the way to comply with 702 or limit pen fault issues in many scenarios. This is clearly shown in 702 and earthing/bonding guidance doc.
So again we make statements such as dangerous and lethal to try and sound a smart arse but the debate is in the actual subject matter not your or my opinion.
Physics is a beautiful thing.
@@electrician247Debate : a discussion between people in which they express different opinions about something.
Not sure what you think a debate is...
If there was a pen fault in this installation with an 11 ohm Ze then 'physics' would mean that people touching earth outside might die.
If you can use 'physics' to tell me otherwise, feel free.
I mentioned the distances involved as I completely understand that if an earth spike is put down in an urban environmental it's not necessarily safe under pen fault.
This isn't an urban environment.
Exporting a PME earth is dangerous.
A well distanced earth spike with separation from the PME earth eliminates this danger.
Pen fault detection exist for a reason where this isn't possible.
Do what you like.
If anyone was electrocuted even though you've taken everything into account you'd wind up in court because someone would have to be hung for it.
For this reason I wont get involved with them, theres plenty of work out there where you dont need to get involved in a risk assessment that's so debatable you need a lawyer to sanction it.
Haha, nobody forces us to do anything at the end of the day. That's a fair point 👉
If you can afford to have a hot tub make it ultra safe by installing an isolating transformer.
Someone else suggested this as well. Its an option. Thanks for watching and joining in the comments
The music audio level on this video is way too loud, need to watch your levels, it's a common mistake people make.
Yeah I do my best with the editing skills I have ans time to do it. Have quietened them down a bit on more recent videos. Not easy for a spark to do lol.
When to Elex show was aload of shite was missing some of the big names, didn't buy anything should of gone to work lol