Sinister power-wielding bureaucrats or Sweet oranges from China? - whatever the definition it took a long and winding path to the English language, as Mark Sabine explains.
I just started grade 10 intro to mandarin after several years of French. When the teacher wrote the word for "to be" on the board, and I realized that you didn't have to conjugate it, ever, for any reason, I almost fainted in joy.
In Lithuanian "mandarinas" (-as is simply a masculine ending of a noun) means "tangerine", so how did that happen? :D Lithuanian has many similarities with Sanskrit but it certainly didn't derive from "mantra"...
Thanks for this video! I've long been fascinated with the word "mandarin" because I used to get the language confused with the fruit while talking about Chinese dialects. This was really informative, so thanks. :)
I get so excited whenever something very personal to me is mentioned in these videos. Mandarin is my first language and I am born and raised in Malaysia....so nice to hear an English professor talk about them. ：)
How about the word 'Japan'? It's quite different from how Japanese people refer to their land, plus one of the first european people over there also were Portuguese.
BRADY! You should do a W-o-t-W episode about "bloke" - I'm American & you can bet it's only on TH-cam channels like yours, top gear, head squeeze, earth unplugged, & a handful of Aussie-made channels that I ever hear bloke. I've always thought it was a peculiar word & it would be interesting to learn how it came about. We speak the same language but it's also so different. I especially love British slang. If not bloke, there're lots of interesting UK-centric English words worth discussing.
I can agree with that. I think a lot of it depends on a person's learning style, at least if they are learning as a second language. Honestly speaking personally I like to know the origin of words if I can find them, and it helps me to remember when I can draw connections between words or even between languages. But I know other people who find that information distracting and pointless.
The stone carvings you showed while he was talking about Sanskrit was not Devnagari script. As far as I know Sanskrit was written in Devnagari script. My native language (Nepali) is a direct decendant of Sanskrit and we still write it in Devnagari script.
Touché. But, 英 in this case is a purely phonetic translation of "eng-". The character itself meant "flower" in classical Chinese. Now it could mean "talented" or "outstanding". The 央 part is indicating pronunciation, somehow. Pictogram is just one of six methods to create a character. (See Chinese character classification on Wikipedia)
Sure they would. The cultural beliefs and language exchanges of the far east (ranging from the middle east all the way to Japan) are heavily influenced by the Aryans, who in turn were heavily influenced by the Greeks and also Sanskrit as a language in general.
I find it amusing that most etymology can be traced back to European languages. Sanskrit, Latin, Greek. All Indoeuropean. There must have been a time, deeper back into prehistory, where the dominant influence came outside of indoeurope. But it is so long ago that it is just... prehistory.
No, I mean CLASSICAL Chinese (nothing to do with traditional or simplified). It's more of a classical Chinese (文言文) thing to use "第三人". 第三名 is more common now.
Well there is a bit of a bias, because the words we find interesting tend to have rather twisty etymology, and because we're talking about Indoeuropean words - present-day English words. I doubt the same roots would be evident in Mandarin itself, or Japanese, or some older East European local languages.
I'm glad that this video did not fall for another false etymology, i.e. "Mandarin came from the word Manchu, indicating the alien origin of the Qing Dynasty." This was a lie very frequently told by the Hongkongers to discredit Mandarin as China's standard language. Also, I think "Mandar" is a more probable origin than "Menteri", because I know a bit of Malay and the Malays tend to omit the second "e" and pronounce it as "Mentry".
That's very interesting. The word for minister in Thai language is 'ratta-montree', where 'ratta' means state and 'montree' supposedly comes from the Sanskrit you're talking about.
Well, naturally, because most etymological studies are made of Indo-European languages :) I mean, if you take any American language, there's no trace of Indo-European languages there. Neither is there in most languages right across the Pacific Ocean eastwards from Malaysia and Indonesia. Or in Altaic languages (whether or not you agree that such language family exists) Of course Indo-European languages are what you're going to run into if you only ever study that very topic. :)
I think tangerines are slightly smaller, with tougher, more orange skins, while mandarins are larger, flatter, and greener? Or am I thinking of clementines?
I chose Chinese as a second foreign language back in high school. I regret that decision to this day. It's really tough memorizing all the characters and I almost failed...
Indoeuropean and European is hardly the same thing. Sanskrit is more Indian than European, and being the language of Hinduism (a religion older than dirt) and Buddhism, it makes sense that it would have a huge influence in Asia, as Latin and Greek had (has) in Europe
But you also have to memorize most of those combinations, because they are not intelligible on their own. And it gets even worse when you have words of two characters. Why is the first character in the word for England (英国) a combination of the radical for grass and a character meaning "to beg"? There's a good explanation for it but it's pretty convoluted - when you're learning the language sometimes it's just easier to throw up your hands and memorize it by rote.
By the way, the "first comment" tradition in Chinese speaking countries/regions (trying to be politically correct here) are different. In Taiwan and Hong Kong, the first commenter usually writes 頭香 (lit. first incense). In mainland China, it's usually 沙發 (lit. sofa).
These so called "thousands" of characters are actually just a combination of limited components. It's not that hard once you know what each part meant.
Lets list a group of cultures that were MASSIVELY influenced by Europe: Middle east, India, China, Japan, southeast Asia, Africa, Northern Asia, North and South America. That accounts for, what, 90% of the population? 95%?
Yes, I know where it comes from, my point is that viewing Chinese as a combination of radicals actually requires memorizing a lot more information. It's not just for Chinese, the same is true for English. Why is there a k in words like knight, knife and know? Because those words used to be pronounced with k at the beginning, until English pronunciation changed and a k+n combination at the beginning of a word became impossible. But do we need to know that to write English? Not at all.
Ha ha - ah well.... I tried writing 3rd, but I have no idea what it says - could be anything - I added the !!!'s to give it extra meaning and oomph lol.
Yes...I can see that your, ah, striking profile pic is a...shining example for others. Next april fool's day, I want TH-cam to make every account have your profile pic for 24 hours.
Well if you believe some Hindu accounts, yes it did ;) Seriously though, I'd imagine a full explanation of the Indo-European language family and the comparative method would have to be a video all to itself to do it justice. Or a series of videos. Or an entire separate channel. It's a big topic.
He uses 'Minister' in a very strange sense. Several times. Hacker (the elected official) is the Minister and Sir Humphrey (the civil servant) is the 'Mandarin'. Of course the distinction between minister and civil servant has no meaning in a system like the traditional Chinese one, without elections, but in 'Yes, Minister' it's the whole point.
Most major languages and almost all cultures in the world have been heavily influenced by Europe and Indoeuropean languages/cultures. Even many of the things that you point to as examples of differences between the cultures, such as traditional eastern medicine, have been hugely influenced by Europe and indoeuropean languages. Those cultures have not nearly influenced European culture or indoeuropean languages to the degree and magnitude. It is largely a one way street here. That is my point.
why stop anywhere? why not have a 48 hours live stream explaining the origin of language? And why stop there? continue with sign language, music, smoke signals, why stop there?
"The Mandarin Duck, which is a small water fowl" Thank you for explaining what a duck is
Whoooo Mark Sabine!
By the end, I was expecting to hear that Mandarin wasn't a word at all.
I just started grade 10 intro to mandarin after several years of French. When the teacher wrote the word for "to be" on the board, and I realized that you didn't have to conjugate it, ever, for any reason, I almost fainted in joy.
I love this channel. Learning the history of language and origins of words really opens up ones awareness of how similar we all are.
Why is everything on here Portuguese? Is every word ever Portuguese?
In Dutch, oranges are called "sinaasappels", which originates from "china's appels", meaning "china's apples".
I kept it as "mentoring." It makes sense from the origin of the word. I love words!
I really love these videos. Thank you so much.
In Lithuanian "mandarinas" (-as is simply a masculine ending of a noun) means "tangerine", so how did that happen? :D Lithuanian has many similarities with Sanskrit but it certainly didn't derive from "mantra"...
...awesome explanation! ...very nice to see how a word and its meaning changes and evolves with time...
Thanks for this video! I've long been fascinated with the word "mandarin" because I used to get the language confused with the fruit while talking about Chinese dialects. This was really informative, so thanks. :)
Fabulous video, thank you!!
My brother is in Hong Kong with his family. He tells me that "First thing they teach the kids the joke that "Putonghua is Putonghua for Putonghua""
I get so excited whenever something very personal to me is mentioned in these videos. Mandarin is my first language and I am born and raised in Malaysia....so nice to hear an English professor talk about them. ：)
How about the word 'Japan'? It's quite different from how Japanese people refer to their land, plus one of the first european people over there also were Portuguese.
BRADY! You should do a W-o-t-W episode about "bloke" - I'm American & you can bet it's only on TH-cam channels like yours, top gear, head squeeze, earth unplugged, & a handful of Aussie-made channels that I ever hear bloke. I've always thought it was a peculiar word & it would be interesting to learn how it came about. We speak the same language but it's also so different. I especially love British slang. If not bloke, there're lots of interesting UK-centric English words worth discussing.
I can agree with that. I think a lot of it depends on a person's learning style, at least if they are learning as a second language. Honestly speaking personally I like to know the origin of words if I can find them, and it helps me to remember when I can draw connections between words or even between languages. But I know other people who find that information distracting and pointless.
Brilliant talk !
lovely presentation
The stone carvings you showed while he was talking about Sanskrit was not Devnagari script. As far as I know Sanskrit was written in Devnagari script. My native language (Nepali) is a direct decendant of Sanskrit and we still write it in Devnagari script.
Given Mandarin is also known as "the government language" in Chinese, it does make sense that Mandarin originally means "official".
I'm curious. Is his usage of 'Begs the question' correct?
montree (pronounced very similar to how you did) is also the bengali word for minister, and probably very similar in hindi too.
"China" comes from Sanskrit "Cina" which may have been derived from the Qin (Ch'in) dynasty.
Touché. But, 英 in this case is a purely phonetic translation of "eng-". The character itself meant "flower" in classical Chinese. Now it could mean "talented" or "outstanding". The 央 part is indicating pronunciation, somehow. Pictogram is just one of six methods to create a character. (See Chinese character classification on Wikipedia)
Sure they would. The cultural beliefs and language exchanges of the far east (ranging from the middle east all the way to Japan) are heavily influenced by the Aryans, who in turn were heavily influenced by the Greeks and also Sanskrit as a language in general.
I find it amusing that most etymology can be traced back to European languages. Sanskrit, Latin, Greek. All Indoeuropean. There must have been a time, deeper back into prehistory, where the dominant influence came outside of indoeurope. But it is so long ago that it is just... prehistory.
Actually, 第三人 (and 名) is the same in Traditional and Simplified.
No, I mean CLASSICAL Chinese (nothing to do with traditional or simplified). It's more of a classical Chinese (文言文) thing to use "第三人". 第三名 is more common now.
Well there is a bit of a bias, because the words we find interesting tend to have rather twisty etymology, and because we're talking about Indoeuropean words - present-day English words. I doubt the same roots would be evident in Mandarin itself, or Japanese, or some older East European local languages.
I'm glad that this video did not fall for another false etymology, i.e. "Mandarin came from the word Manchu, indicating the alien origin of the Qing Dynasty." This was a lie very frequently told by the Hongkongers to discredit Mandarin as China's standard language.
Also, I think "Mandar" is a more probable origin than "Menteri", because I know a bit of Malay and the Malays tend to omit the second "e" and pronounce it as "Mentry".
IMO, it's hard to learn Chinese, but, once you get the hang of it, it is easier to get good at than English
Yea guys - Im with Ana - really informative and interesting vid! I love these words ones. Oh, and Ana - - while yr down there.... ;)
That's very interesting. The word for minister in Thai language is 'ratta-montree', where 'ratta' means state and 'montree' supposedly comes from the Sanskrit you're talking about.
really good one
My friend Ho Lee Fuq speaks that ;)
Indoeuropean is a widely recognized class of languages. I think he meant Indoeuropean, given the context of the words.
Well, naturally, because most etymological studies are made of Indo-European languages :) I mean, if you take any American language, there's no trace of Indo-European languages there. Neither is there in most languages right across the Pacific Ocean eastwards from Malaysia and Indonesia. Or in Altaic languages (whether or not you agree that such language family exists) Of course Indo-European languages are what you're going to run into if you only ever study that very topic. :)
Thanks :)
I agree with that, actually. You don't have to know the etymology of the word but it certainly helps.
Anyone hear heard of Tamil language...
I think tangerines are slightly smaller, with tougher, more orange skins, while mandarins are larger, flatter, and greener? Or am I thinking of clementines?
Welcomeback!
I chose Chinese as a second foreign language back in high school. I regret that decision to this day. It's really tough memorizing all the characters and I almost failed...
Indoeuropean and European is hardly the same thing. Sanskrit is more Indian than European, and being the language of Hinduism (a religion older than dirt) and Buddhism, it makes sense that it would have a huge influence in Asia, as Latin and Greek had (has) in Europe
But you also have to memorize most of those combinations, because they are not intelligible on their own. And it gets even worse when you have words of two characters. Why is the first character in the word for England (英国) a combination of the radical for grass and a character meaning "to beg"? There's a good explanation for it but it's pretty convoluted - when you're learning the language sometimes it's just easier to throw up your hands and memorize it by rote.
nvm, you brought up sanskrit.
06:34 is not Sanskrit. It's most likely Malayalam.
Yes, Mr. Tony Stark. It's time for another lesson....
很有意思.
By the way, the "first comment" tradition in Chinese speaking countries/regions (trying to be politically correct here) are different. In Taiwan and Hong Kong, the first commenter usually writes 頭香 (lit. first incense). In mainland China, it's usually 沙發 (lit. sofa).
These so called "thousands" of characters are actually just a combination of limited components. It's not that hard once you know what each part meant.
you would have save all a fair amount of time if you have directly jumped to the point.
Lets list a group of cultures that were MASSIVELY influenced by Europe: Middle east, India, China, Japan, southeast Asia, Africa, Northern Asia, North and South America. That accounts for, what, 90% of the population? 95%?
Yes, I know where it comes from, my point is that viewing Chinese as a combination of radicals actually requires memorizing a lot more information. It's not just for Chinese, the same is true for English. Why is there a k in words like knight, knife and know? Because those words used to be pronounced with k at the beginning, until English pronunciation changed and a k+n combination at the beginning of a word became impossible. But do we need to know that to write English? Not at all.
原来是这样。我早就觉得奇怪了。
Ha ha - ah well.... I tried writing 3rd, but I have no idea what it says - could be anything - I added the !!!'s to give it extra meaning and oomph lol.
I tried learned Mandarin, it's tough stuff.
Yes...I can see that your, ah, striking profile pic is a...shining example for others. Next april fool's day, I want TH-cam to make every account have your profile pic for 24 hours.
Most English etymology can be traced back to European languages. The same can't be said of all languages.
Qin Shi Huang, the first emperor.
Well if you believe some Hindu accounts, yes it did ;) Seriously though, I'd imagine a full explanation of the Indo-European language family and the comparative method would have to be a video all to itself to do it justice. Or a series of videos. Or an entire separate channel. It's a big topic.
He uses 'Minister' in a very strange sense. Several times. Hacker (the elected official) is the Minister and Sir Humphrey (the civil servant) is the 'Mandarin'. Of course the distinction between minister and civil servant has no meaning in a system like the traditional Chinese one, without elections, but in 'Yes, Minister' it's the whole point.
and in Dutch
Neurosis? Or whatever your nick was on the forums
Damn, didn't think of writing first!
Dì yī, or 第一.
Hey, another video about a Portuguese word! (After 'fetish') Language kept little remnants of the Portuguese empire, I guess.
Mandarin will always mean tangerine to me, cause im russian
So where does the word "Chinese" come from then?
不用謝！Greetings from Hong Kong. :)
Most major languages and almost all cultures in the world have been heavily influenced by Europe and Indoeuropean languages/cultures. Even many of the things that you point to as examples of differences between the cultures, such as traditional eastern medicine, have been hugely influenced by Europe and indoeuropean languages. Those cultures have not nearly influenced European culture or indoeuropean languages to the degree and magnitude. It is largely a one way street here. That is my point.
That looks more like Classical Chinese.
Trav, man - I thought u at least could have written 1st in MANDARIN! regards
why stop anywhere? why not have a 48 hours live stream explaining the origin of language? And why stop there? continue with sign language, music, smoke signals, why stop there?
Ah, I see what you mean...
谢谢 ;)
*hearing
What forums? I have no idea what you're talking about.
TJ's forums. I've mistaken you for someone else
cause then your looking at language evolution, not words bouncing between languages, and poor brady only has so much time
(名) 第三人!!!
And Sanskrit just sprung up out of nowhere as a fully-formed language? WRONG AGAIN!
So why stop there?
First
Some lost content, I reckon.
Qin Shi Huang, the first emperor.
Qin Shi Huang, the first emperor.