I am German, so this is very interesting for me. I actually read Bonhoeffer's book ("Nachfolge" in German) when I was a student. I did not realise at the time that he was teaching works salvation.
@noitchingearshere7935 majority of religions teach you have to work for your salvation. That's why the path is narrow because not many belief that its by Grace we are saved, not by our works.
@@dansmith9724 True. Jesus said to strive to enter the narrow gate. Bob says professing John 3:16 without obedience is all that's necessary. Huge difference.
@@noitchingearshere7935 "Popular" ? The Broad Path is clearly paved by taking credit for having performed well enough till death (Working for a Free Gift Theology) . "Earning Grace" rightly underscores this incoherence , under cover of Christian terminology . Grace is - by definition - Unmerited , Unearned , and entirely apart from putting God in Debt to us for our marvelous and wonderful behavioral performance (works) : Ephesians 2:8-9 ; Romans 3:20-5:11,11:6,29 ; Titus 3:5 ; Philippians 3:9 & the book of Galatians . Anyone looking to their Perseverance in Performance (works) till death as an "Infallible Metric" of one's Everlasting destination is an unbeliever in Him for His Free and Never Deserving Gift of irrevocable Life, having rejected His PERFECT work of Redemption that fully paid the Price Himself , taking all the sins of the world away . Only simple childlike faith in Him for what He actually Certifies regenerates forever: John 1:12-13,3:1-18,4:1-39,5:24,6:28-47,11:23-27,20:31 ; Acts 16:31 ; 1 John 5:1,10-13 ; 1 Timothy 1:16 ; Galatians 2:16,3:26 . Bonhoeffer appeals to that majority sentiment .
What is most interesting to me, is how this argument/accusation of "cheap Grace" actually ends up condemning whomever is Spiritually benighted enough to make it: When one speaks of something being "cheap," what are they saying? They are saying that someone is _paying for_ something, and the cost is low. Well then, WHO is doing the purchasing, in this scenario? It is the "Christian" -- and, by extension, the one making the argument, who ostensibly only takes issue with the price. He believes he should pay _more!_ This accusation is just another way of saying, "I believe I BOUGHT my own Salvation -- and it cost me _a lot!"_ It's a way for one to announce that he believes himself responsible for the purchase price of Salvation!
@@2Chronicles714_ When you sin - which is very , very frequently - are you "cheapening God's grace" ? When you frequently sin , are you 24/7/365 - for a Lifetime - "Continuously believing" in Him ? When you so often sin , are you "worshipping Satan" while doing so ? If you die while sinning where will you go Forever ? Why ?
@soljos1190 I like what the apostle Jude says about it Jude 4 For certain individuals WHOSE CONDEMNATION WAS WRITTEN ABOUT LONG AGO HAVE SECRETLY SLIPPED IN AMONG YOU THEY ARE UNGODLY PEOPLE WHO PERVERT THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY AND DENY JESUS CHRIST OUR ONLY SOVEREIGN AND LORD. It's like he's here.
@soljos1190 I like what the apostle Jude says about it Jude 4 For certain individuals WHOSE CONDEMNATION WAS WRITTEN ABOUT LONG AGO HAVE SECRETLY SLIPPED IN AMONG YOU THEY ARE UNGODLY PEOPLE WHO PERVERT THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY AND DENY JESUS CHRIST OUR ONLY SOVEREIGN AND LORD. It's like he's here.
.The Cross can forgive NO ONE if they first do not CONFESS AND FORSAKE sin 1John 1: 9. Prov 28 :13 . Why would Jesus want to forgive someone who had no intention of turning from a life of sin . By making excuses for sin we are JUSTIFYING bad behaviour not allowing Jesus to justify or to CLEANSE US . No one can get to heaven " dirty" . Jesus Himself said GO AND SIN NO MORE . This is PLAIN ENGLISH . Boninhoffer is absolutely correct . Yhe reason people want to sin is because they don't want to be connected to the TRUE VINE AND BEAR HIS FRUIT NOT OUURS . What sort of God do you serve who has done all He can to help us to OBEY HIM Phil 4: 13 John 15: 1- 6.
@@2Chronicles714_ Repentance doesn't give anyone the Free Gift of Endless Everlasting Life . Cuz turning from one's sins (some?... most??...ALL???) till death is Never Once the Condition of receiving the Free and Never Deserving Gift of irrevocable Life . Only the Judaizers/unregenerate Scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 23) find that incoherence "believable" .
@@EricHort-cx1jp I've never gotten a response from this question posed to those attempting to defend works righteousness (Obedience/Fruit/Repentance as a turn from an unknowable % of sin until death is NECESSARY to go to His Kingdom) : How good are you ? How good is your "Lifestyle" ? Your "Fruit" ? How good do you have to be to get to His endless Kingdom ? Show us , from Exegesis of Scripture - the unambiguous , precise , objective , doubtless (%) level of behavioral performance (works) NECESSARY to earn/merit/be rewarded with/DESERVE the Free and Never Deserving Gift of endless Everlasting Life after death , per : 1. Second . 2. Minute . 3. Hour . 4. Day . 5. Week . 6 . Month . 7 . Year . 8 . Decade . 9 . Lifetime . I'll wait for your precise , specific , objectively verifiable reply . To meet the Burden of Proof to sustain your affirmation , make sure that you find this criteria in every Evangelistic/ Justification before God/Everlasting Life passage in Scripture , which would prove that it is indeed NECESSARY .
@@2Chronicles714_ Have you repented of all your sins or do you still sin? Also, is your salvation contingent on your repentance? Or, you have to keep repenting to maintain or keep your salvation? Also, if a saved believer commits a sin then dies without repenting, did they lose their salvation and go to hell?
What is it you're affirming - specifically , precisely , and without exception - one must Necessarily believe and Perform until death in order to be born again with endless Everlasting Life to enter His Kingdom ?
@@soljos1190 Rom 2:5-8 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; (6) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Gal 6:7-9 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. (9) And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
I saw this online and this seems consistent with the video : Some teachings, like Lordship Salvation, blur the distinction between salvation and discipleship, emphasizing obedience as a condition for eternal life. However, the Bible clearly separates these two concepts, emphasizing justification by faith alone for salvation and obedience as a response to salvation for discipleship.
@@2Chronicles714_ Jesus was speaking there of the cost of being _a disciple_ (as He makes abundantly clear in the prior two verses) -- and NOT of being Saved! Discipleship is _costly_ -- VERY costly! A few verses later, He even explicitly says it costs you _absolutely everything you have!_ THIS is NOT Salvation -- which is a FREE GIFT! You will end up with countless contradictions, and make God sound disingenuous in His Promises, when you fail to distinguish between SALVATION and SERVICE.... between the ROOT, and the FRUIT!
@@2Chronicles714_ I would also add this: There is a proper order for these two things: One _should_ be Born Again -- be given the FREE GIFT of Eternal Life -- and _then_ go about being a disciple. Unfortunately, there are many people who, in failing to distinguish Salvation from service, attempt to make one's Salvation a result of one's discipleship. That is to say that, while paying lip service to the Scriptural truth that one is Saved by GRACE, through FAITH, they nevertheless end up making one's Salvation contingent upon the WORKS done in their "Christian" walk. Being a disciple of Jesus is HARD _WORK!_ Being Saved, however, is a FREE GIFT given to whomsoever should trust Jesus -- and Him ALONE -- for Eternal Life! To say, "Yes, Jesus, I believe You when You say, 'he who believeth on Me hath Everlasting Life,'.... BUT, one must ALSO..." is to have *NOT* BELIEVED HIM!
Couldn't be a clearer example of incoherence than the pejorative term "Cheap Grace" . "Grace" is - by definition - Absent the slightest admixture of any remunerative Requirements . Bonhoeffer really seems to suggest that one must "Deserve" Grace , somehow . Collapsing Discipleship into eternal Justification before God results in just such confusion, thereby resulting in a duplication of the doctrine of the Judaizers. Bonhoeffer's "zeal" is clearly "not according to knowledge" , as Paul himself designates (Romans 9:30-33) ; Galatians 1:6-9) .
Romans 4:4-5 - Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
message to GES and Bob, PLEASE do some videos on preachers/bible teachers teaching that " belief means far more than "thinking something is true"?. I keep running into bible teachers who say the word" believe" really does NOT mean "believe" but means a total committment/faithfullness to christ. they then try to say the greek REALLY means something else. they are trying to redefine words in the bible!. THANKS!!!.
Zane Hodges was a Greek teacher and he mentions in his book "Absolutely Free" that believe and faith in Greek are not more than thinking something is true.
Jimb-o4h, what's a solid response to someone who snarkily responds, "yeah, but the demons also believe--and tremble. Are the demons saved?" It all but forces us to redefine "believe" as more than an intellectual assent to a fact.
James obviously knows that demons cannot be saved. The point he is making is if believing alone was sufficient then the demons would be saved. A claim of belief minus repentance is a dead faith. Repentance and belief go hand in hand. You can't repent without believing and you can't believe without repenting. That's the point of James 2 that you are saved by faith,but it is a faith that works. It's not a static intellectual faith. It's a faith that motivates you. You start to do thing you'd never do before. Like John the Baptist said earlier as well as Paul show evidence of your repentance by your works. We are saved by Faith and not works however, we are not saved IF our Faith does not work.
@@2Chronicles714_ Amen, but I'm not sure Wilkin et al. would agree with you, especially as your "faith that works" phrase is ominously close to "Faith Works," title of a book by Free Grace bogeyman Johnny Mac. Thanks for the thoughtful response.
Bonhoeffer is a perfect example of how an impossible concept , can get into everyday parlance . The vast majority within "Churchianity" finds his "Cheap Grace" Straw Man Fallacy somehow plausible . Yet , if the Laws of Logic are indeed Operational , this Straw Man is easily blown over . "Grace" denotes an Absence of Payment due to the recipient of the Free Gift . Not a Lifetime Obligation to be hopefully good enough to Deserve the Never Deserving Gift . Bonhoeffer therefore remains Unbelievable to a little children who Never thinks to Whip Out their Credit Cards when handed a Birthday or Christmas Gift .
@@2Chronicles714_ Probably one of the Least surprising things you've ever said , quite frankly . You ARE Bonhoeffer , when properly understood . He's swimming in the same Stream as the Judaizers/unregenerate Scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 23) who forged the Template for all subsequent "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing" Methodology. Always seeking to "establish their own righteousness" often with utmost "zeal" (Romans 9) . The "Many" on the Broad Path are always characterized by just such self righteous Idolatry masquerading as Christianity , having uniformly rejected His PERFECT work of Redemption that fully Propitiated all the work Himself , that His Free and Never Deserving Gift can indeed be totally apart from all Merit based criteria . Your "criteria" Tops Out at Meriting and thus DESERVING that which can Never happen . Therefore you simply don't know where you're going when you physically die . And that SCARES you , intensely . Means you cannot Objectively certify that you've believed His doubtless Guarantee . No better strategy employed by the Seed stealer , than injection of Doubt about His Doubtless Promise (2 Corinthians 4:4 ; Luke 8:12) .
@@GraceAloneKJV Free gracers trust in their ability rather than simply humble themselves to God admitting they are a guilty sinner and changing their minds about and turning away from sin to Jesus as Lord and Savior.
@@2Chronicles714_ Bible says exactly the opposite of your behavioral performance (works) criteria to enter His Kingdom . You lie about what Free Grace actually states , called a "Straw Man Fallacy" . Not once has GES ever stated what you just asserted . Only simple childlike faith in the Christ (Jesus) for His doubtless Guarantee of irrevocable Everlasting Life alone secures the Forever Gift . Objectively , it has zero to do with ANYTHING we DO (works) . "Trusting in our ability " ? What does that even MEAN ? As incoherent a statement as it is a tacit admission of your Working for a Free and Never Deserving Gift Theology that is the very definition of Prideful arrogance , borne of a rejection of His PERFECT Propitiation for all sins ever committed . Thus , your Working for a Free Gift puts God in Debt to your Lifetime of hopefully good enough behavioral performance (works) as the Barometer of your Everlasting destination . So , you'll indeed have something to "Boast about" , thereby contradicting : Ephesians 2:8-9 ; Romans 3:20-5:11,11:6,29 ; Titus 3:5 ; Philippians 3:9 & the book of Galatians . Not one verse in the Bible has an Evangelistic/Everlasting Life/endless Justification before God Content with your above-mentioned criteria . So , as @GraceAloneKJV stated , you indeed "want to be your own savior" in rejection of His Finished Work of Redemption that made His Free and Never Deserving Gift without any basis for Boastful arrogance - borne of Self Righteousness - that attempts to "come in some other way" by means of behavioral performance (works) .
@soljos1190 You prove what I said about the perverted grace teaching here and always. You trust in your ability and pretend obedience is not found throughout the entire Bible.
@@2Chronicles714_ How many sins did Jesus Judicially Propitiate in His PERFECT work of Redemption ? Is your Everlasting destination contingent upon your Lifetime of hopefully good enough behavioral performance (works) , or is it a Free and Never Deserving Gift received at a moment in time with Endless Consequence , apart from your working for it ? When you sin - which is tremendously frequent by the way - are you "24/7/365" Walking in the light ; "Continuously believing" ; "Perverting Grace" ; "given a License to sin" ; ..."Worshipping Satan" ? If you die while sinning where will you go Forever ? Why ?
Very good analysis, Mike and Bob. However, Bob, you made one comment that I hope you would further explain. Around the 14:35 mark where you are discussing the parables of Jesus buying the kingdom, you said, "What about 'all to Him we owe," which I presume is a reference to the hymn, Jesus Paid It All, in which a line of the hymn states, "Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe...." We would agree that Jesus did all of the work of eternal salvation, in that He lived a perfect life, died for the sins of the whole world, and was raised from the dead. Therefore, everlasting life is a gift that is free to the recipient, the one who believes in Him. So, what exactly do we "owe" Jesus in exchange for the gift of everlasting life, or how are we indebted to Jesus for everlasting life?
Ironically, the grace that they preach is the one that is cheap. It exalts mans imperfect works over christ perfect obedience no wonder Paul uses terms that seem over explaining. Romans 11:6 King James Version 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. He could not have been clearer.
We do continue to work out salvation with fear and trembling - Phili. 2:12 If the grace you have received does not reach you to say no to ugliness (Titus 2:12), you have no grace at all. Most likely you are falling into modern type of antinomianism, that is, you are teaching not the assurance of salvation, but rather, the insurance of salvation. You are teaching, Semi Hyper Calvinism. Most likely, you don't trust the working of the Holy Spirit, but always concern about teaching the Wors, clearly thinking is the clarity is what gives power.
The question is, is service different than faith alone. Is discipleship required for salvation. If they are one and the same then there are a lot of contradictions in the gospels. If separate issues then it makes sense with no contradictions.
@@2Chronicles714_ Judas and many other unbelievers were "Disciples" . Your "point" is Objectively Pointless . Not One passage in the Bible states : "Whosoever that is a Disciple till death (24/7/365) - shall after physical death - be paid for/be rewarded with/earn/DESERVE...the Free and Never Deserving Gift of Endless Everlasting Life" . Yet , that's really what you're affirming . You're affirming that a Free Gift has a hidden Cost (a Lifetime of hopefully good enough behavioral performance (works) , that shall Cover the Cost that His PERFECT work of Redemption couldn't somehow accomplish . Rejection of His Finished Work that He alone accomplished without any supplemental help from you , is unbelief in Him for what He actually Certifies : John 3:16 & Ephesians 2:8-9 . Your Working for a Free Gift Theology is nothing but Boasting in your works righteousness that can Never secure the Forever Gift . It's Prideful Arrogance rooted in the heart of every Judaizer/unregenerate Scribe and Pharisee (Matthew 23) whose "father is the Devil " .
Bonhoeffer said when Jesus invited Peter to martyrdom, THEN he received salvation. I'm supposing he meant, but didn't say, that "AFTER Peter accepted the work", then Christ saved him, which is works salvation. It's the sneaky language of Calvinism, where you constantly have to read between the lines. But, I may differ from the free grace doctrine slightly in that I say sin and works does have a component in salvation. For me, coming to Christ 52 years ago was mainly motivated by seeking relief from the weight of a guilty conscience through sinful living - smoking, drinking, carousing, stealing etc. I tried other ways and religions first to change, but none could offer what Jesus was promising in the Scripture I'd been reading since childhood, to lighten the load I was carrying - guilt and sin - through God's forgiveness (grace), and newness of life. Totally driven by love of self and self gain, I did things I didn't want to do to feed my selfish fleshly desires, but then I would be remorseful and frustrated that I couldn't live the way matching the good moral picture I held of my ideal self. I didn't want to be a hypocrite, but to live from the heart. As Paul exclaimed, who will save us from this body of death? Jesus does. Yes, He will change us more into His image over time (some quickly, others slowly), but He died while we were still sinning to offer us the free gift of salvation, no strings (works) attached.
@@GraceAloneKJV I Jesus don't ignore things fom Jesus. Such as His first command when He started His earthly ministry to repent and believe. Like His final command after the resurrection to preach repentance for the forgiveness of sins to all nations. Free grace rejects repenting of sin so they are trusting in their self- righteousness, thereby making themselves a co-savior.
I feel bad for people who can’t read the gospels and distinguish salvation and discipleship. You lose so much of the meaning by jumbling everything together. It’s a sweater string that when pulled on unravels the entirety of rewards as well. They don’t realize that but that’s just because most don’t take things to the logical conclusion. Bummer dude.
So, when were our sins forgiven???? When Christ died on the Cross , fulfilling all the requirements of the Law, or when we confess our sins ,pray a prayer ,and sign up for baptism ???? It happened at The Cross period, The Gospel is not based on whwt we do but what He Did!!!!!
Acts 2:38 Peter replied and said unto them REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Mark, my former (seeker-friendly) church had a mantra that went something like "There's nothing you can do to be more saved than you already are; there's nothing you can do to make Jesus love you less or to love you more." It always struck me as an invitation to lawlessness. Why not sin? Jesus won't love me less and my salvation is locked-in and secure. And many Christians don't give evidence of being made new creatures in Christ. I worry about false conversions, indifference, and churches giving false assurance to unbelievers.
Acts 2:38 Peter was talking to the generation of Jews who crucified Jesus. No other groups were told to repent and be baptised to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Gentiles were told to believe for everlasting life and the forgiveness of sins. Acts 10 : 43-45 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
Sorry for Bonhoeffer that if he died in that thinking?, the next stop for him is at the great white throne. " Depart from Me, I NEVER knew you! He has destroyed Lord Jesus as God, and destroyed His atonement. He is woefully outside of the context. "They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.
Jesus is talking about those who thought all you have to do is utter I believe in Jesus and can live anyway you want. No repentance No obedience Jesus wasn't their Sheppard.
@@soljos1190 This person believes that their efforts will get them into Heaven. This person doesn't believe that Jesus finished work on the cross is enough, but they have to add their own efforts/trying/what they do will add to what Christ has done, in other words, Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough.
Soljos hi. Thanks for the correction . I should have said wilful said can't be forgiven Heb 10 26, 27 unless repented confessed and forsaken 1John 1: 9 ; Prov 28 : 13 THEN Jesus can forgive us and CLEANSE us from ALL our unrighteousness and place our names in the L.B.O.L after we have become overcomers from sin as Jesus Himself did Rev 3: 12, 21. I had no idea we could murder, rape, steal etc and STILL have our names in the Book . Ezek 36 : 31 says we will.abhor ourselves for what we had done because we have Jeaus living in us Gal 2: 20 ; Rom 12: 1 2. Both Ezek 18: 24 and 2Pet 2: 20- 22. Refute what you say about an IREVERSIBLE new birth . Salvation is not only OBTAINED by Christ's blood but must also be MAINTAINED through Christ's righteousness applied to out daily lives Jude 24 . We have nothing to boast about . May I mention Jesus NEVER called the Pharisees legalists for keeping the law, He called them HYPCRITES for NOT keeping it Matt 23:3 Mal 2: 1- 9. Also could you explain Acts 3: 19,- 21 about sins being blotted out WHEN Jesus comes . If the cross was the FINAL atonement we would be sinless and immortal today 1 Cor 15: 50 - 55( and in heaven)
Most know nothing about humans perfectly lost condition and the animal that was killwd for Adam and Eve. Literally they know nothing and sre blinded by their failing obedience and pride
When I read "Cost of Discipleship" it offended me as it made the immeasurable power and richness of God's Grace as the power of the Gospel itself for Salvation...less intrinsically valuable, less powerful, less preeminent as was the drastic effect Grace had in my conversion... his was coming out of a very legalist, void of the Spirit State church experience where many are not Born Again and have no clue of the transformational power of the Gospel and new life in Christ
@@2Chronicles714_ You very obviously are a Modern Judaizer/Scribe & Pharisee in the Matthew 23 mold . Drunk on Boasting of your "Better than Thou" Behavioral Performance (works) .
It sure sounds like to me that Bonhoeffer believed in a works-based salvation. Making works either necessary to get saved or to continue to be saved, both of which he did, renders the gospel of grace null and void. I would seriously question where that man is spending eternity? There is no such thing as "cheap grace", but there certainly is FREE GRACE which costs the believing sinner absolutely nothing. Big difference between those two concepts. One is totally scriptural while the other is of Satan the great deceiver.
@@2Chronicles714_ "Obedience" to WHAT , precisely and without exception ? You didn't specify . Your entire scheme is a Working for a Free Gift Theology . So , your assertion is another Begging the Question Fallacy . For you , "faith" = a Lifetime of hopefully good enough behavioral performance (works) that will eventuate in Deserving the Never Deserving Gift of Endless Everlasting Life . That can ONLY make sense to a modern Judaizer/Scribe & Pharisee who's rejected His PERFECT work of Redemption that took away all the sins of the world - Judicially - that His Free and Never Deserving Gift can indeed be without Cost to all its recipients : John 4:1-8 .
@@2Chronicles714_ You believe that what you do will get you into Heaven. Just say what you really mean, that Jesus is not your all in all, that His sacrifice wasn't sufficient, that your efforts (works, whether you believe it or want to call it that, or not) saves you. Just say it once and for all for all who stumble on your comment can see with their own eyes exact what you believe and preach to us all.
@@GraceAloneKJV Christ is the groom and we are to be the bride of Christ Ephesians 5:25-27 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing b her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. There was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him. 2 Corinthians 11:2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. The Bible is full of allusions to God’s people being his bride. In the Old Testament, the prophets often portray God’s people as a beloved bride who is also often an adulterous wife. God is seen as a faithful husband who pursues and wins back his bride time and time again. An example: Zechariah 1:2-6 The Lord was very angry with your ancestors. 3Therefore tell the people: This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Return to me,’ declares the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will return to you,’ says the Lord Almighty 4Do not be like your ancestors, to whom the earlier prophets proclaimed: This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Turn from (Repent) your evil ways and your evil practices.’ But they would not listen or pay attention to me, declares the Lord. 5Where are your ancestors now? And the prophets, do they live forever? 6But did not my words and my decrees, which I commanded my servants the prophets, overtake your ancestors? “Then they repented and said, ‘The Lord Almighty has done to us what our ways and practices deserve, just as he determined to do.’
Christ is the groom and we are to be the bride of Christ Ephesians 5:25-27 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing b her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. There was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him. 2 Corinthians 11:2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. The Bible is full of allusions to God’s people being his bride. In the Old Testament, the prophets often portray God’s people as a beloved bride who is also often an adulterous wife. God is seen as a faithful husband who pursues and wins back his bride time and time again.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer is trying to sound so intelligent and yet he can't even understand simple definitions to basic words like Faith, Believe, grace, and Free/Gift 🙄
Wrong. People that believe in free grace theology, don't believe that at all. If you read John 3:16 you'll see what you have to believe in and that is the promise that Jesus gives us everlasting life and by believing that you shall never perish.
What is it you're affirming - specifically , precisely , and without exception - one must Necessarily believe and Perform until death in order to be born again with endless Everlasting Life to enter His Kingdom ?
Believe that Grace is cheep is saying Jesus suffered and dieing on crost is cheep for you to have salvation means unsaved.Spitting in our Lord's face.🙄🙏
The Apostle Jude had a better name. Perverting grace. Jude 4 For certain individuals WHOSE CONDEMNATION WAS WRITTEN ABOUT LONG AGO HAVE SECRETLY SLIPPED IN AMONG YOU THEY ARE UNGODLY PEOPLE WHO PERVERT THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY AND DENY JESUS CHRIST OUR ONLY SOVEREIGN AND LORD.
@@2Chronicles714_ So , how many of your Filthy , Vile , Horrible and disgusting sins did Jesus Judicially Propitiate ? If you die while sinning where will you go Forever ? Why ?
Timgrady. You are preaching universalism where everone will be saved by Gods grace . Jesus Himself NEVER preached this .. Jesus said when He comes will He dind faith on the earth. The Bible is full of " if, buts whosoevers " etc denoting yhat there are CONDITIONS for Jesus to save us by His grace . People who continue in sin dont need Christs grace to overcome sin . The wages of sin is still.eternal death whetger you want to belive it or not . Jesus wants us to repent because He is not happy about anyone dying 2Pet 3: 9. FAITH WITOUT WORKS IS A VERY DEAD FAITH .
When you sin - which is very , very frequently - are you "cheapening God's grace" ? When you frequently sin , are you 24/7/365 - for a Lifetime - "Continuously believing" in Him ? When you so often sin , are you "worshipping Satan" while doing so ? If you die while sinning where will you go Forever ? Why ?
Couldn't be a Less True statement about what I really think . Universalism is Exegetically impossible to sustain . FYI : in a dialogue you may actually want to find it useful to elicit the other's position before assuming it . Only reason people are condemned Forever is that their names aren't found in the Lamb's Book of Life : Revelation 20:15 ; John 3:18) . Not as you're asserting (behavioral performance/works/sins are imputed to us) . Zane Hodges clarifies the Final Judgement: The Final Judgment October 7, 2016 by GES Webmaster in Blog - Bob Wilkin, Final Judgment, Propitiation, Sin, Universal Atonement by Zane Hodges In John’s well-known description of the Final Judgment in Revelation 20:11-14, we do not even find a reference to sins, much less a reference to unforgiven sins. Instead, we are told, “the dead were judged acording to theirworks, by the things which were written in the books” (Rev 20:12; italics added). To be sure, the works of unsaved people contain innumerable sins, but it is still significant that sin per se is not referred to, as we will point out in a moment. Yet even though unsaved people are judged on the basis of their works,they are not condemned to hell on that basis! On the contrary we read, “Anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire” (Rev 20:15; italics added). People go to hell, therefore, because they do not have life! This is precisely what we might have concluded from the theme statement of the Fourth Gospel: “but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name” (John 20:31; italics added). It is also evident in John 5:24 where our Lord states that the believer “shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life” (italics added). We conclude, therefore, that the possession oflife is the critical issue between God and man in terms of eternal judgment. There is no Final Judgment to determine one’s eternal destiny if he already possesses life. But sin is not the critical issue. Why not? John’s own writings tell us why. According to John, Jesus is “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29); and “He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world” (1 John 2:2). The hymn writer was correct when he said that “Jesus paid it all”! So marvelously complete and full is the sacrificial death of Christ for our sins that God’s justice is satisfied by that sacrifice and no man is condemned to hell on the grounds of his sins. But by the same token, the cross of Christ does not automatically regenerate men and women. They still need to obtainlife and this is available to them on one basis only: faith in Christ. But then, one might ask, why do men’s works come up at all? The reason must surely be that at the Final Judgment mankind will get a full and fair hearing. Since multitudes have supposed that they can reach heaven by their works, these works will be examined on that day. But as Scripture already informs us, no man can be saved by his works (Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; Rom 3:20). The outcome of the final examination of the works of the lost is a foregone conclusion. Any claim to God’s salvation that is based on the deeds a person has done will be swept away by the contents of the books that are opened at the judgment. Man’s one last hope will rest in the Book of Life, which will be duly consulted even though those being judged do not have their names written there. But the absence of their names from its pages is the basis on which the lost are cast into the lake of fire. Thus one can see that the issue at the Final Judgment is not man’s sin, since Christ has atoned for that in its entirety. Instead, the issue is whether someone can make it into the kingdom of God on the basis of the works they did on earth, apart from the miracle of new birth that comes by faith alone. But as the Lord Jesus informed Nicodemus, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). This article is excerpted from Harmony With God by Zane Hodges
Timgrady. Hi I find the Bible easy to understand when you put FROM SIN every time you read the words " save, saved or salvation" ( Matt 1:21) Jesus DID die to save us from oir sins but God did not create robots. Gen 3:15 God gave us another chance by giving us the power of choice. Jesus cannot choose for us . If people choose to continue in sin it shows they have not been saved ( from sin) and worse God will send them strong delusions if they have pleasure in unrighteousness that they will believe a lie. Sin and righteousness ARE WORKS. Sin is the DEAD opposite of righteousness and wages of sin is STILL death Rom 6:23. No one can out their names in the Lambs B.O.L, only God can . Isa 4:1 says today there will be people who believe what they want to, do what ever suit them only they call THEMSELVES Chrstians to take away Gods reproach for their sinning. Only God can give us a new name by being an overcomer from sin as He overcame Rev 3:12, 21. There will be no defeated wimps in heaven who have meekly capitulated to the wiles off the devil Rev 15: 2. I would rather man call me a legalists than God to call me an ILLEGALISTS and incur His execration and wrath against sin and people who do not want to give their sins to Jesus the Lamb to take away
@@EricHort-cx1jp Tim thinks John 3:16 & Ephesians 2:8-9 are for salvation and any of Jesus's teaching on repentance obedience, surrender, being a disciple is something he parrots mockingly referring to it as Lordship Salvation. As IF those who have surrendered to Jesus's Lordship are following a works based salvation. Ironically he follows a flesh based false salvation.
@@EricHort-cx1jp You're a Filthy , Horrible and disgusting sinner... ... like me and every other mere human who's ever existed . So , you indeed "continue to sin" . A lot . So do I , and every other mere human who's ever existed . Jesus took all of the Penalty for all sins ever committed , that Propitiated (1 John 2:2 ; John 1:29) fully . Not partially . Seems you don't understand How Flawless and PERFECT is His work of Redemption that He alone accomplished , without any of our supplemental help . Seems you're instead looking to your Fully Fallible , and utterly Imperfect behavioral performance (works) till death to earn , merit , and ultimately DESERVE entrance into His Kingdom based upon your hopefully good enough works. Truly , a Mission Impossible . Couldn't be a Less plausible proposition this side of eternity . Completely contradictory to Ephesians 2:8-9 ; Romans 3:20-5:11,11:6,29 ; Titus 3:5 ; Philippians 3:9 ; Galatians . There's not a Sub Nano Particle of evidence supporting your Working for a Free and Never Deserving Gift Theology . Reduces to sheer incoherence on the Level of Square Circles , 4 Sided Triangles , Married Bachelors , and One Ended Sticks . In other words , that which can NEVER HAPPEN in a Universe where the Laws of Logic are Operational . Looking to one's Perseverance in Performance (works) till death completely rejects His Finished Work of Redemption that fully paid the Price - that purchased the Free Gift itself - and seeks to glorify oneself instead . Naked unbelief in Him for His doubtless Guarantee of Endless Everlasting Life . That attempt to Earn Grace and thus DESERVE the Never Deserving Gift of Endless Life is a duplication of the heart of the Judaizers/unregenerate Scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 23) who always "seek to establish their own righteouness" , having rejected His Free Gift of endless Life/eternal Justification before God (Romans 4:1-8) . All such attempts to "come in some other way" by Boastful means (contra Ephesians 2:8-9) , precisely echo the criteria invoked by those in Matthew 7 : "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many mighty works ?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ "Mighty works performed...in YOUR NAME" "LORD , LORD..." . These are clearly Lordship Salvation proponents here , not unlike your proposition . Wrong criteria . Won't open the gates to eternal life . The ONLY Righteousness that enters is His imputation of the Free Gift itself , entirely apart from all Working for it attempts to DESERVE it : Romans 4:1-8 .
It's probably a Great idea to understand Jesus' context when making a teaching. Oh, an btw, Jesus said he "Chose" the 12 and one of them was Judas. Up until the betrayal Judas was considered a Disciple. In Jesus' time there were teachers that had Disciples. Jesus in his Discipleship teachings was expressing the perfect standards it would cost to be a disciple of the Son of God in Jesus. That Jesus was no ordinary teacher. Even the Disciples didn't hold to the standards of discipleship. Jesus' teachings on Discipleship were used to express how Jesus was far greater than just being a mere disciple of a gifted teacher. The stories of the 12 disciples is not one of 12 guys doing a perfect job actually being disciples. They had doubt, infighting, lapses of good judgement, Lack of understanding. The Apostle Paul himself confronted Peter one of the main Disciples of the 12! I really think it's important to get Jesus' teachings in our heads at a deeper level than just these flattened simplistic correlations to modern thinking and life and modern application and understand the context and times Jesus was teaching in. :
Soljos ther are two types of sin 1John 5 a sin unto death and a sin not unto death . Inadvertent sin or mistakes can be forgiven . Wilful sin can't be forgiven Heb 10: 26, 27. If we know we are breaking the law ( transgression) it is iniquity and can't be forgiven. Matt 7 : 21 -27. Iniquity is sin against the HOLY Spirit. Sin is breaking a y of the 10 commands of which the 4th is an integral part as much as murder or stealing etc.
There's not a single passage of Scripture stating the following : "Willful sin cannot be forgiven" . Ever . You made that up out of Whole Cloth . One's forgiveness is Never an Everlasting consideration , but only a temporal Fellowship matter in every conceivable Exegetical usage . Everlasting Life is apart from all behavioral performance (works) : John 3:16 & Ephesians 2:8-9 . One's eternal rewards are indeed predicated on one's faithfulness , obedience , and Perseverance in Performance (works) AFTER being irreversibly born again , apart from any meritorious means . Acts 10:43 & 1 John 1:6-9 directly refute your assertion . Fellowship forgiveness is unavailable to all who are unregenerate , not having been born again with irrevocable Everlasting Life by simple childlike faith in Him FOR the Free Gift . Whoever dies as an unbeliever remains a forever slave to sin (John 8:24) . Sin is never the reason one goes to the endless lake of fire . Only reason is one's name isn't found in the Book of Life (Revelation 20:15 ; John 3:18) , caused by unbelief in Him for His Never Deserving Gift . Thus , without the Only kind of Life (Everlasting) that enters His Kingdom . One is only invested with His Free and Never Deserving Gift of endless Everlasting Life when one believes in Him FOR that Never ending Gift , as Paul himself designates about himself: ..."as an example of them who believe in Him For Eternal Life" (1 Timothy 1:16) . Looks like you think your behavioral performance (works) instead is the "Infallible Metric " of your Everlasting destination . No more poignant example of the rejection of His Free and Never Deserving Gift . Jesus Fully Finished all the work of Redemption Himself , without any of our supplementation . Looks like you Don't think He literally removed the Sin Barrier Himself , having Paid the Penalty (1 John 2:2) . That same idea is exactly what those in Hebrews 10 were doing : rejection of His PERFECT Redemption and a return to Legalism .
What Can Eternally Secure Believers Lose? Their Physical Lives July 2, 2021 by Shawn Lazar in Blog - consequences, Death, James, physical death, Sin, Thieme What can believers lose by sinning? People wrongly charge Free Grace of holding to eternal security at the expense of ignoring the warning passages of Scripture. Not true. On the contrary, we acknowledge those warnings and take them seriously. But more importantly, we take them in context. For example, as James says, sin brings forth death: Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death (James 1:15). Everlasting life is everlasting. Once you have it, you have it forever. But is that true of the believer’s physical life? Does it go on forever? No. Unless you’re alive at the time of the Rapture, you will die physically. And as James warns, sin can hasten the process. Did you know that one of the consequences of sin is that it can put you in an early grave? That’s what happened to the Corinthians who showed contempt for each other at the Lord’s Supper: For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep (1 Cor 11:30). The Corinthians were born-again, Spirit-filled people, and they died too soon because of sin. You cannot lose your salvation, but you can lose your life! Likewise, John warned the believers about the deadly consequences of sin, too: If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death (1 John 5:16-17). Zane Hodges thought something was puzzling about what John said. Since all sin can lead to death (as per Jas 1:15), why does John say that some do and some don’t? Hodges reasoned that John must mean some sins lead directly to death. Think of Ananias, Sapphira, and the Corinthians. Hodges argued these especially deadly sins are related to “a severe breach of the sanctity of the Christian assembly” (Hodges, The Epistles of John, p. 233). Tony Evans agrees, saying, This is sin that results in the physical death of a believer. We see examples of this in Scripture when God takes unrepentant believers home before their time (see 1 Cor 3:16-17; 11:30). These are typically gross sins against the body of Christ. In view here is not a believer struggling with sin (after all, the church is a hospital for sinners) but a hard-headed fool who adopts a harsh, unloving attitude towards God’s people. When someone wreaks havoc in the family of God, he may experience severe discipline from the Lord (The Tony Evans Bible Commentary, p. 1379). So, according to Hodges and Evans, if your actions harm the church, you can experience severe discipline unto death. However, I wonder if John is making a broader point about all kinds of sin. After all, isn’t it common knowledge that some sins are deadlier than others? For example, getting impatient with your children for leaving a mess around the house is a sin (cf. Eph 4:2). But will you directly die from it? Probably not. But what would happen if you stole from a drug cartel? Sin is deadly. But some sins are deadlier than others. R. B. Thieme had a term for when Christians rebelled against God: reversionism. As Thieme explained, the believer reverts back to his or her former state which invites the discipline of God: The sin unto death is administered only after prolonged and unchecked reversionism, after failure to respond to warning and intensive discipline (Jer 44:9-12; Ezek 20:13; Phil 3:18-19). This ultimate destruction is confined to time and in no way implies the loss of eternal salvation (Thieme, Reversionism, p. 46). Thieme’s last point is crucial for a well-rounded understanding of eternal security. Once saved, always saved does not mean believers can sin without consequences. And just as importantly, you should read the warning passages in context. If a passage threatens the loss of your physical life, you should not re-interpret it to mean you can lose your eternal life. If James warns about sin getting you killed, then that’s what he means. In sum, immorality is deadly-even for the eternally secure believer, which is another reason to stop sinning.
@@timgrady4630 You get your theology from Shawn Lazar? You are so decieved. Unrepentant sin brings death doesn't mean physical death, obviously everyone will die, James 1:15 means spiritual death in the lake of fire. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death. How are sins forgiven? Only through repentance which Lazar rejects.
@@2Chronicles714_ Jesus is Lord . I , nor you - nor any other mere human who's ever existed - "MAKES HIM LORD" . That's His intrinsic Title by way of His essential Attributes . Your question is very transparently a "Loaded Question" , not unlike the question : "So , when is it you stopped abusing your wife ?" The question itself has a presupposition built into it . Point is , there's not a mere human who's ever existed who - 100% 24/7/365 for a Lifetime - has "Made Jesus"Lord" , in the Behavioral Performance (works) sense you're affirming . Not me . Not you . Nor any other Wretched , Filthy , Vile , Horrific and Disgusting sinner...which would account for every conceivable mere human... EVER . You seem to think you're behavioral performance (works) are BETTER THAN OTHERS . And your behavioral performance (works) till death will put "god" in Debt to you for the Reward you'll receive at the Finish Line . Cuz you don't think He Finished all the Work of Redemption Himself . Right ? You really think it's ultimately "Up To You" to earn , merit , be paid with , be rewarded with... DESERVE... ... WAIT FOR IT...the Free and Never Deserving Gift of Endless Everlasting Life . Precisely as the Judaizers/unregenerate Scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 23) who establish the Template for the rejection of His Free Gift, in favor of self righteous Idolatry masquerading as Religiosity . All of whom are energized by their "father the Devil" , the originator of just such Prideful Arrogance rooted in one's "Stellar and better than Thou Performance" (works) . That REALLY is who you are , when all the Fluff and Feathers are boiled off . You're in here constantly Boasting about your Better than Thou Performance (works) , contrary to Ephesians 2:8-9 . Couldn't be a more pitiful and glaringly Obvious contradiction to His Free and Never Deserving Gift of irrevocable Everlasting Life in the annals of History .
I am German, so this is very interesting for me. I actually read Bonhoeffer's book ("Nachfolge" in German) when I was a student. I did not realise at the time that he was teaching works salvation.
He taught just as Jesus did.
@@2Chronicles714_ Yes but that is not popular today
@noitchingearshere7935 majority of religions teach you have to work for your salvation. That's why the path is narrow because not many belief that its by Grace we are saved, not by our works.
@@dansmith9724
True. Jesus said to strive to enter the narrow gate.
Bob says professing
John 3:16 without obedience is all that's necessary.
Huge difference.
@@noitchingearshere7935
"Popular" ?
The Broad Path is clearly paved by taking credit for having performed well enough till death (Working for a Free Gift Theology) .
"Earning Grace" rightly underscores this incoherence , under cover of Christian terminology .
Grace is - by definition - Unmerited , Unearned , and entirely apart from putting God in Debt to us for our marvelous and wonderful behavioral performance (works) :
Ephesians 2:8-9 ; Romans 3:20-5:11,11:6,29 ; Titus 3:5 ; Philippians 3:9 & the book of Galatians .
Anyone looking to their Perseverance in Performance (works) till death as an "Infallible Metric" of one's Everlasting destination is an unbeliever in Him for His Free and Never Deserving Gift of irrevocable Life, having rejected His PERFECT work of Redemption that fully paid the Price Himself , taking all the sins of the world away .
Only simple childlike faith in Him for what He actually Certifies regenerates forever:
John 1:12-13,3:1-18,4:1-39,5:24,6:28-47,11:23-27,20:31 ; Acts 16:31 ; 1 John 5:1,10-13 ; 1 Timothy 1:16 ; Galatians 2:16,3:26 .
Bonhoeffer appeals to that majority sentiment .
What is most interesting to me, is how this argument/accusation of "cheap Grace" actually ends up condemning whomever is Spiritually benighted enough to make it:
When one speaks of something being "cheap," what are they saying? They are saying that someone is _paying for_ something, and the cost is low.
Well then, WHO is doing the purchasing, in this scenario?
It is the "Christian" -- and, by extension, the one making the argument, who ostensibly only takes issue with the price. He believes he should pay _more!_
This accusation is just another way of saying, "I believe I BOUGHT my own Salvation -- and it cost me _a lot!"_
It's a way for one to announce that he believes himself responsible for the purchase price of Salvation!
We see it all over the cheapening of Gods precious grace.
These who teach simply claim to believe and that's it, your conduct is irrelevant.
@@2Chronicles714_Your conduct is a service issue nothing to do with salvation at all.
@@2Chronicles714_
When you sin - which is very , very frequently - are you "cheapening God's grace" ?
When you frequently sin , are you 24/7/365 - for a Lifetime - "Continuously believing" in Him ?
When you so often sin , are you "worshipping Satan" while doing so ?
If you die while sinning where will you go Forever ?
Why ?
@soljos1190
I like what the apostle Jude says about it
Jude 4
For certain individuals WHOSE CONDEMNATION WAS WRITTEN ABOUT LONG AGO HAVE SECRETLY SLIPPED IN AMONG YOU THEY ARE UNGODLY PEOPLE WHO PERVERT THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY AND DENY JESUS CHRIST OUR ONLY SOVEREIGN AND LORD.
It's like he's here.
@soljos1190
I like what the apostle Jude says about it
Jude 4
For certain individuals WHOSE CONDEMNATION WAS WRITTEN ABOUT LONG AGO HAVE SECRETLY SLIPPED IN AMONG YOU THEY ARE UNGODLY PEOPLE WHO PERVERT THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY AND DENY JESUS CHRIST OUR ONLY SOVEREIGN AND LORD.
It's like he's here.
Grace is not cheap as Jesus paid it ALL
Exactly, its not cheap, it's free.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was evidently sin obsessed as opposed to Son obsessed, not realizing that sin was dealt with at Calvary...
He was simply saying that people have moved away from repentance which Jesus taught the absolute need for the forgiveness of sins.
.The Cross can forgive NO ONE if they first do not CONFESS AND FORSAKE sin 1John 1: 9. Prov 28 :13 . Why would Jesus want to forgive someone who had no intention of turning from a life of sin . By making excuses for sin we are JUSTIFYING bad behaviour not allowing Jesus to justify or to CLEANSE US . No one can get to heaven " dirty" . Jesus Himself said GO AND SIN NO MORE . This is PLAIN ENGLISH . Boninhoffer is absolutely correct . Yhe reason people want to sin is because they don't want to be connected to the TRUE VINE AND BEAR HIS FRUIT NOT OUURS . What sort of God do you serve who has done all He can to help us to OBEY HIM Phil 4: 13 John 15: 1- 6.
@@2Chronicles714_
Repentance doesn't give anyone the Free Gift of Endless Everlasting Life .
Cuz turning from one's sins (some?... most??...ALL???) till death is Never Once the Condition of receiving the Free and Never Deserving Gift of irrevocable Life .
Only the Judaizers/unregenerate Scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 23) find that incoherence "believable" .
@@EricHort-cx1jp
I've never gotten a response from this question posed to those attempting to defend works righteousness (Obedience/Fruit/Repentance as a turn from an unknowable % of sin until death is NECESSARY to go to His Kingdom) :
How good are you ?
How good is your "Lifestyle" ? Your "Fruit" ?
How good do you have to be to get to His endless Kingdom ?
Show us , from Exegesis of Scripture - the unambiguous , precise , objective , doubtless (%) level of behavioral performance (works) NECESSARY to earn/merit/be rewarded with/DESERVE the Free and Never Deserving Gift of endless Everlasting Life after death , per :
1. Second .
2. Minute .
3. Hour .
4. Day .
5. Week .
6 . Month .
7 . Year .
8 . Decade .
9 . Lifetime .
I'll wait for your precise , specific , objectively verifiable reply .
To meet the Burden of Proof to sustain your affirmation , make sure that you find this criteria in every Evangelistic/ Justification before God/Everlasting Life passage in Scripture , which would prove that it is indeed NECESSARY .
@@2Chronicles714_ Have you repented of all your sins or do you still sin? Also, is your salvation contingent on your repentance? Or, you have to keep repenting to maintain or keep your salvation? Also, if a saved believer commits a sin then dies without repenting, did they lose their salvation and go to hell?
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
What is it you're affirming - specifically , precisely , and without exception - one must Necessarily believe and Perform until death in order to be born again with endless Everlasting Life to enter His Kingdom ?
@@soljos1190 Rom 2:5-8 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; (6) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Gal 6:7-9 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. (9) And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
I saw this online and this seems consistent with the video :
Some teachings, like Lordship Salvation, blur the distinction between salvation and discipleship, emphasizing obedience as a condition for eternal life. However, the Bible clearly separates these two concepts, emphasizing justification by faith alone for salvation and obedience as a response to salvation for discipleship.
He should call his book - THE COST OF SALVATION
True -- because THAT, after all, _really is_ what he is saying.
@ yep. Lordship garbage.
That's why Jesus said to count the cost.
@@2Chronicles714_ Jesus was speaking there of the cost of being _a disciple_ (as He makes abundantly clear in the prior two verses) -- and NOT of being Saved! Discipleship is _costly_ -- VERY costly! A few verses later, He even explicitly says it costs you _absolutely everything you have!_ THIS is NOT Salvation -- which is a FREE GIFT!
You will end up with countless contradictions, and make God sound disingenuous in His Promises, when you fail to distinguish between SALVATION and SERVICE.... between the ROOT, and the FRUIT!
@@2Chronicles714_ I would also add this: There is a proper order for these two things: One _should_ be Born Again -- be given the FREE GIFT of Eternal Life -- and _then_ go about being a disciple.
Unfortunately, there are many people who, in failing to distinguish Salvation from service, attempt to make one's Salvation a result of one's discipleship. That is to say that, while paying lip service to the Scriptural truth that one is Saved by GRACE, through FAITH, they nevertheless end up making one's Salvation contingent upon the WORKS done in their "Christian" walk.
Being a disciple of Jesus is HARD _WORK!_
Being Saved, however, is a FREE GIFT given to whomsoever should trust Jesus -- and Him ALONE -- for Eternal Life!
To say, "Yes, Jesus, I believe You when You say, 'he who believeth on Me hath Everlasting Life,'.... BUT, one must ALSO..."
is to have *NOT* BELIEVED HIM!
Couldn't be a clearer example of incoherence than the pejorative term "Cheap Grace" .
"Grace" is - by definition - Absent the slightest admixture of any remunerative Requirements .
Bonhoeffer really seems to suggest that one must "Deserve" Grace , somehow .
Collapsing Discipleship into eternal Justification before God results in just such confusion, thereby resulting in a duplication of the doctrine of the Judaizers.
Bonhoeffer's "zeal" is clearly "not according to knowledge" , as Paul himself designates (Romans 9:30-33) ; Galatians 1:6-9) .
Romans 4:4-5 - Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
message to GES and Bob, PLEASE do some videos on preachers/bible teachers teaching that " belief means far more than "thinking something is true"?. I keep running into bible teachers who say the word" believe" really does NOT mean "believe" but means a total committment/faithfullness to christ. they then try to say the greek REALLY means something else. they are trying to redefine words in the bible!. THANKS!!!.
Zane Hodges was a Greek teacher and he mentions in his book "Absolutely Free" that believe and faith in Greek are not more than thinking something is true.
Bob wilkin talks about Pisteo in his book I think “top ten most misunderstood words in the bible”
Jimb-o4h, what's a solid response to someone who snarkily responds, "yeah, but the demons also believe--and tremble. Are the demons saved?" It all but forces us to redefine "believe" as more than an intellectual assent to a fact.
James obviously knows that demons cannot be saved. The point he is making is if believing alone was sufficient then the demons would be saved.
A claim of belief minus repentance is a dead faith. Repentance and belief go hand in hand. You can't repent without believing and you can't believe without repenting.
That's the point of James 2 that you are saved by faith,but it is a faith that works.
It's not a static intellectual faith.
It's a faith that motivates you. You start to do thing you'd never do before.
Like John the Baptist said earlier as well as Paul show evidence of your repentance by your works.
We are saved by Faith and not works however, we are not saved IF our Faith does not work.
@@2Chronicles714_ Amen, but I'm not sure Wilkin et al. would agree with you, especially as your "faith that works" phrase is ominously close to "Faith Works," title of a book by Free Grace bogeyman Johnny Mac. Thanks for the thoughtful response.
Bonhoeffer is a perfect example of how an impossible concept , can get into everyday parlance .
The vast majority within "Churchianity" finds his "Cheap Grace" Straw Man Fallacy somehow plausible .
Yet , if the Laws of Logic are indeed Operational , this Straw Man is easily blown over .
"Grace" denotes an Absence of Payment due to the recipient of the Free Gift .
Not a Lifetime Obligation to be hopefully good enough to Deserve the Never Deserving Gift .
Bonhoeffer therefore remains Unbelievable to a little children who Never thinks to Whip Out their Credit Cards when handed a Birthday or Christmas Gift .
I recently got his book and am anxious to read it.
IF he was alive and had a TH-cam channel it would be one I would listen to.
@@2Chronicles714_
Probably one of the Least surprising things you've ever said , quite frankly .
You ARE Bonhoeffer , when properly understood .
He's swimming in the same Stream as the Judaizers/unregenerate Scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 23) who forged the Template for all subsequent "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing" Methodology.
Always seeking to "establish their own righteousness" often with utmost "zeal" (Romans 9) .
The "Many" on the Broad Path are always characterized by just such self righteous Idolatry masquerading as Christianity , having uniformly rejected His PERFECT work of Redemption that fully Propitiated all the work Himself , that His Free and Never Deserving Gift can indeed be totally apart from all Merit based criteria .
Your "criteria" Tops Out at Meriting and thus DESERVING that which can Never happen .
Therefore you simply don't know where you're going when you physically die .
And that SCARES you , intensely .
Means you cannot Objectively certify that you've believed His doubtless Guarantee .
No better strategy employed by the Seed stealer , than injection of Doubt about His Doubtless Promise (2 Corinthians 4:4 ; Luke 8:12) .
So many people want to be their own savior.
@@GraceAloneKJV
Free gracers trust in their ability rather than simply humble themselves to God admitting they are a guilty sinner and changing their minds about and turning away from sin to Jesus as Lord and Savior.
@@2Chronicles714_
Bible says exactly the opposite of your behavioral performance (works) criteria to enter His Kingdom .
You lie about what Free Grace actually states , called a "Straw Man Fallacy" .
Not once has GES ever stated what you just asserted .
Only simple childlike faith in the Christ (Jesus) for His doubtless Guarantee of irrevocable Everlasting Life alone secures the Forever Gift .
Objectively , it has zero to do with ANYTHING we DO (works) .
"Trusting in our ability " ?
What does that even MEAN ?
As incoherent a statement as it is a tacit admission of your Working for a Free and Never Deserving Gift Theology that is the very definition of Prideful arrogance , borne of a rejection of His PERFECT Propitiation for all sins ever committed .
Thus , your Working for a Free Gift puts God in Debt to your Lifetime of hopefully good enough behavioral performance (works) as the Barometer of your Everlasting destination .
So , you'll indeed have something to "Boast about" , thereby contradicting :
Ephesians 2:8-9 ; Romans 3:20-5:11,11:6,29 ; Titus 3:5 ; Philippians 3:9 & the book of Galatians .
Not one verse in the Bible has an Evangelistic/Everlasting Life/endless Justification before God Content with your above-mentioned criteria .
So , as @GraceAloneKJV stated , you indeed "want to be your own savior" in rejection of His Finished Work of Redemption that made His Free and Never Deserving Gift without any basis for Boastful arrogance - borne of Self Righteousness - that attempts to "come in some other way" by means of behavioral performance (works) .
@soljos1190
You prove what I said about the perverted grace teaching here and always.
You trust in your ability and pretend obedience is not found throughout the entire Bible.
@@2Chronicles714_
How many sins did Jesus Judicially Propitiate in His PERFECT work of Redemption ?
Is your Everlasting destination contingent upon your Lifetime of hopefully good enough behavioral performance (works) , or is it a Free and Never Deserving Gift received at a moment in time with Endless Consequence , apart from your working for it ?
When you sin - which is tremendously frequent by the way - are you "24/7/365" Walking in the light ; "Continuously believing" ; "Perverting Grace" ; "given a License to sin" ;
..."Worshipping Satan" ?
If you die while sinning where will you go Forever ?
Why ?
Very good analysis, Mike and Bob. However, Bob, you made one comment that I hope you would further explain. Around the 14:35 mark where you are discussing the parables of Jesus buying the kingdom, you said, "What about 'all to Him we owe," which I presume is a reference to the hymn, Jesus Paid It All, in which a line of the hymn states, "Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe...." We would agree that Jesus did all of the work of eternal salvation, in that He lived a perfect life, died for the sins of the whole world, and was raised from the dead. Therefore, everlasting life is a gift that is free to the recipient, the one who believes in Him. So, what exactly do we "owe" Jesus in exchange for the gift of everlasting life, or how are we indebted to Jesus for everlasting life?
Ironically, the grace that they preach is the one that is cheap. It exalts mans imperfect works over christ perfect obedience no wonder Paul uses terms that seem over explaining.
Romans 11:6
King James Version
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
He could not have been clearer.
He never had a conception of the difference between SALVATION and SANCTIFICATION.
We do continue to work out salvation with fear and trembling - Phili. 2:12
If the grace you have received does not reach you to say no to ugliness (Titus 2:12), you have no grace at all. Most likely you are falling into modern type of antinomianism, that is, you are teaching not the assurance of salvation, but rather, the insurance of salvation. You are teaching, Semi Hyper Calvinism. Most likely, you don't trust the working of the Holy Spirit, but always concern about teaching the Wors, clearly thinking is the clarity is what gives power.
The question is, is service different than faith alone. Is discipleship required for salvation. If they are one and the same then there are a lot of contradictions in the gospels. If separate issues then it makes sense with no contradictions.
Jesus never separated being a believer and a disciple. False teachers have caused the confusion.
@@2Chronicles714_
Judas and many other unbelievers were "Disciples" .
Your "point" is Objectively Pointless .
Not One passage in the Bible states :
"Whosoever that is a Disciple till death (24/7/365) - shall after physical death - be paid for/be rewarded with/earn/DESERVE...the Free and Never Deserving Gift of Endless Everlasting Life" .
Yet , that's really what you're affirming .
You're affirming that a Free Gift has a hidden Cost (a Lifetime of hopefully good enough behavioral performance (works) , that shall Cover the Cost that His PERFECT work of Redemption couldn't somehow accomplish .
Rejection of His Finished Work that He alone accomplished without any supplemental help from you , is unbelief in Him for what He actually Certifies :
John 3:16 & Ephesians 2:8-9 .
Your Working for a Free Gift Theology is nothing but Boasting in your works righteousness that can Never secure the Forever Gift .
It's Prideful Arrogance rooted in the heart of every Judaizer/unregenerate Scribe and Pharisee (Matthew 23) whose "father is the Devil " .
Bonhoeffer said when Jesus invited Peter to martyrdom, THEN he received salvation. I'm supposing he meant, but didn't say, that "AFTER Peter accepted the work", then Christ saved him, which is works salvation. It's the sneaky language of Calvinism, where you constantly have to read between the lines.
But, I may differ from the free grace doctrine slightly in that I say sin and works does have a component in salvation. For me, coming to Christ 52 years ago was mainly motivated by seeking relief from the weight of a guilty conscience through sinful living - smoking, drinking, carousing, stealing etc. I tried other ways and religions first to change, but none could offer what Jesus was promising in the Scripture I'd been reading since childhood, to lighten the load I was carrying - guilt and sin - through God's forgiveness (grace), and newness of life.
Totally driven by love of self and self gain, I did things I didn't want to do to feed my selfish fleshly desires, but then I would be remorseful and frustrated that I couldn't live the way matching the good moral picture I held of my ideal self. I didn't want to be a hypocrite, but to live from the heart. As Paul exclaimed, who will save us from this body of death? Jesus does. Yes, He will change us more into His image over time (some quickly, others slowly), but He died while we were still sinning to offer us the free gift of salvation, no strings (works) attached.
Back in those days preachers were still preaching the need for repentance.
How many works Factor into your Everlasting destination ?
How "good" do you gotta be till death to merit Eternal Life ?
@@2Chronicles714_ Jesus is a partial-Savior, or co-Savior to you. This is what I'm gathering from your theology.
@@GraceAloneKJV
I Jesus don't ignore things fom Jesus. Such as His first command when He started His earthly ministry to repent and believe. Like His final command after the resurrection to preach repentance for the forgiveness of sins to all nations.
Free grace rejects repenting of sin so they are trusting in their self-
righteousness,
thereby making themselves a co-savior.
I feel bad for people who can’t read the gospels and distinguish salvation and discipleship. You lose so much of the meaning by jumbling everything together. It’s a sweater string that when pulled on unravels the entirety of rewards as well. They don’t realize that but that’s just because most don’t take things to the logical conclusion. Bummer dude.
Not really a martyr, because he was executed for being involved in an assassination plot, not dying for Christ.
So, when were our sins forgiven???? When Christ died on the Cross , fulfilling all the requirements of the Law, or when we confess our sins ,pray a prayer ,and sign up for baptism ???? It happened at The Cross period, The Gospel is not based on whwt we do but what He Did!!!!!
Acts 2:38
Peter replied and said unto them REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Mark, my former (seeker-friendly) church had a mantra that went something like "There's nothing you can do to be more saved than you already are; there's nothing you can do to make Jesus love you less or to love you more." It always struck me as an invitation to lawlessness. Why not sin? Jesus won't love me less and my salvation is locked-in and secure. And many Christians don't give evidence of being made new creatures in Christ. I worry about false conversions, indifference, and churches giving false assurance to unbelievers.
Jesus made salvation conditional upon belief.
@@2Chronicles714_Acts 2:38 is for service not salvation.
Acts 2:38
Peter was talking to the generation of Jews who crucified Jesus.
No other groups were told to repent and be baptised to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Gentiles were told to believe for everlasting life and the forgiveness of sins.
Acts 10 : 43-45 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
Sorry for Bonhoeffer that if he died in that thinking?, the next stop for him is at the great white throne. " Depart from Me, I NEVER knew you!
He has destroyed Lord Jesus as God, and destroyed His atonement.
He is woefully outside of the context. "They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.
Jesus is talking about those who thought all you have to do is utter I believe in Jesus and can live anyway you want.
No repentance
No obedience
Jesus wasn't their Sheppard.
@@2Chronicles714_
If you die while sinning where will you go Forever ?
Why ?
@@soljos1190 This person believes that their efforts will get them into Heaven. This person doesn't believe that Jesus finished work on the cross is enough, but they have to add their own efforts/trying/what they do will add to what Christ has done, in other words, Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough.
Soljos hi. Thanks for the correction . I should have said wilful said can't be forgiven Heb 10 26, 27 unless repented confessed and forsaken 1John 1: 9 ; Prov 28 : 13 THEN Jesus can forgive us and CLEANSE us from ALL our unrighteousness and place our names in the L.B.O.L after we have become overcomers from sin as Jesus Himself did Rev 3: 12, 21. I had no idea we could murder, rape, steal etc and STILL have our names in the Book . Ezek 36 : 31 says we will.abhor ourselves for what we had done because we have Jeaus living in us Gal 2: 20 ; Rom 12: 1 2. Both Ezek 18: 24 and 2Pet 2: 20- 22. Refute what you say about an IREVERSIBLE new birth . Salvation is not only OBTAINED by Christ's blood but must also be MAINTAINED through Christ's righteousness applied to out daily lives Jude 24 . We have nothing to boast about . May I mention Jesus NEVER called the Pharisees legalists for keeping the law, He called them HYPCRITES for NOT keeping it Matt 23:3 Mal 2: 1- 9. Also could you explain Acts 3: 19,- 21 about sins being blotted out WHEN Jesus comes . If the cross was the FINAL atonement we would be sinless and immortal today 1 Cor 15: 50 - 55( and in heaven)
Most know nothing about humans perfectly lost condition and the animal that was killwd for Adam and Eve. Literally they know nothing and sre blinded by their failing obedience and pride
When I read "Cost of Discipleship" it offended me as it made the immeasurable power and richness of God's Grace as the power of the Gospel itself for Salvation...less intrinsically valuable, less powerful, less preeminent as was the drastic effect Grace had in my conversion... his was coming out of a very legalist, void of the Spirit State church experience where many are not Born Again and have no clue of the transformational power of the Gospel and new life in Christ
You obviously are still in rebellion.
@@2Chronicles714_
You very obviously are a Modern Judaizer/Scribe & Pharisee in the Matthew 23 mold .
Drunk on Boasting of your "Better than Thou" Behavioral Performance (works) .
It sure sounds like to me that Bonhoeffer believed in a works-based salvation. Making works either necessary to get saved or to continue to be saved, both of which he did, renders the gospel of grace null and void. I would seriously question where that man is spending eternity? There is no such thing as "cheap grace", but there certainly is FREE GRACE which costs the believing sinner absolutely nothing. Big difference between those two concepts. One is totally scriptural while the other is of Satan the great deceiver.
Obedience to Christ who gave His life for a ransom for many is certainly not works.
@@2Chronicles714_
"Obedience" to WHAT , precisely and without exception ? You didn't specify .
Your entire scheme is a Working for a Free Gift Theology .
So , your assertion is another Begging the Question Fallacy .
For you , "faith" = a Lifetime of hopefully good enough behavioral performance (works) that will eventuate in Deserving the Never Deserving Gift of Endless Everlasting Life .
That can ONLY make sense to a modern Judaizer/Scribe & Pharisee who's rejected His PERFECT work of Redemption that took away all the sins of the world - Judicially - that His Free and Never Deserving Gift can indeed be without Cost to all its recipients : John 4:1-8 .
@@2Chronicles714_ You believe that what you do will get you into Heaven.
Just say what you really mean, that Jesus is not your all in all, that His sacrifice wasn't sufficient, that your efforts (works, whether you believe it or want to call it that, or not) saves you.
Just say it once and for all for all who stumble on your comment can see with their own eyes exact what you believe and preach to us all.
@@GraceAloneKJV
Christ is the groom and we are to be the bride of Christ
Ephesians 5:25-27
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing b her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
There was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him.
2 Corinthians 11:2
I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.
The Bible is full of allusions to God’s people being his bride. In the Old Testament, the prophets often portray God’s people as a beloved bride who is also often an adulterous wife. God is seen as a faithful husband who pursues and wins back his bride time and time again.
An example:
Zechariah 1:2-6
The Lord was very angry with your ancestors.
3Therefore tell the people: This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Return to me,’ declares the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will return to you,’ says the Lord Almighty 4Do not be like your ancestors, to whom the earlier prophets proclaimed: This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Turn from (Repent) your evil ways and your evil practices.’ But they would not listen or pay attention to me, declares the Lord. 5Where are your ancestors now? And the prophets, do they live forever? 6But did not my words and my decrees, which I commanded my servants the prophets, overtake your ancestors?
“Then they repented and said, ‘The Lord Almighty has done to us what our ways and practices deserve, just as he determined to do.’
Christ is the groom and we are to be the bride of Christ
Ephesians 5:25-27
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing b her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
There was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him.
2 Corinthians 11:2
I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.
The Bible is full of allusions to God’s people being his bride. In the Old Testament, the prophets often portray God’s people as a beloved bride who is also often an adulterous wife. God is seen as a faithful husband who pursues and wins back his bride time and time again.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer is trying to sound so intelligent and yet he can't even understand simple definitions to basic words like Faith, Believe, grace, and Free/Gift 🙄
People here think faith is just believing Jesus exists.
Wrong.
People that believe in free grace theology, don't believe that at all.
If you read John 3:16 you'll see what you have to believe in and that is the promise that Jesus gives us everlasting life and by believing that you shall never perish.
@@2Chronicles714_
Quit the misrepresentation (Straw Man Fallacy) .
Otherwise known as "Lying" .
Binhoeffer says intellectual/ mental ascent. Ofcourse that never saves anyone.
Beinging convicted in your HEART, AND RECEIVING CHRIST SAVES!
What is it you're affirming - specifically , precisely , and without exception - one must Necessarily believe and Perform until death in order to be born again with endless Everlasting Life to enter His Kingdom ?
Believe that Grace is cheep is saying Jesus suffered and dieing on crost is cheep for you to have salvation means unsaved.Spitting in our Lord's face.🙄🙏
The Apostle Jude had a better name.
Perverting grace.
Jude 4
For certain individuals WHOSE CONDEMNATION WAS WRITTEN ABOUT LONG AGO HAVE SECRETLY SLIPPED IN AMONG YOU THEY ARE UNGODLY PEOPLE WHO PERVERT THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY AND DENY JESUS CHRIST OUR ONLY SOVEREIGN AND LORD.
@@2Chronicles714_
So , how many of your Filthy , Vile , Horrible and disgusting sins did Jesus Judicially Propitiate ?
If you die while sinning where will you go Forever ?
Why ?
Timgrady. You are preaching universalism where everone will be saved by Gods grace . Jesus Himself NEVER preached this .. Jesus said when He comes will He dind faith on the earth. The Bible is full of " if, buts whosoevers " etc denoting yhat there are CONDITIONS for Jesus to save us by His grace . People who continue in sin dont need Christs grace to overcome sin . The wages of sin is still.eternal death whetger you want to belive it or not . Jesus wants us to repent because He is not happy about anyone dying 2Pet 3: 9. FAITH WITOUT WORKS IS A VERY DEAD FAITH .
When you sin - which is very , very frequently - are you "cheapening God's grace" ?
When you frequently sin , are you 24/7/365 - for a Lifetime - "Continuously believing" in Him ?
When you so often sin , are you "worshipping Satan" while doing so ?
If you die while sinning where will you go Forever ?
Why ?
Couldn't be a Less True statement about what I really think .
Universalism is Exegetically impossible to sustain .
FYI : in a dialogue you may actually want to find it useful to elicit the other's position before assuming it .
Only reason people are condemned Forever is that their names aren't found in the Lamb's Book of Life : Revelation 20:15 ; John 3:18) .
Not as you're asserting (behavioral performance/works/sins are imputed to us) .
Zane Hodges clarifies the Final Judgement:
The Final Judgment
October 7, 2016 by GES Webmaster in Blog - Bob Wilkin, Final Judgment, Propitiation, Sin, Universal Atonement
by Zane Hodges
In John’s well-known description of the Final Judgment in Revelation 20:11-14, we do not even find a reference to sins, much less a reference to unforgiven sins. Instead, we are told, “the dead were judged acording to theirworks, by the things which were written in the books” (Rev 20:12; italics added). To be sure, the works of unsaved people contain innumerable sins, but it is still significant that sin per se is not referred to, as we will point out in a moment.
Yet even though unsaved people are judged on the basis of their works,they are not condemned to hell on that basis! On the contrary we read, “Anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire” (Rev 20:15; italics added). People go to hell, therefore, because they do not have life!
This is precisely what we might have concluded from the theme statement of the Fourth Gospel: “but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name” (John 20:31; italics added). It is also evident in John 5:24 where our Lord states that the believer “shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life” (italics added). We conclude, therefore, that the possession oflife is the critical issue between God and man in terms of eternal judgment. There is no Final Judgment to determine one’s eternal destiny if he already possesses life.
But sin is not the critical issue. Why not? John’s own writings tell us why. According to John, Jesus is “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29); and “He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world” (1 John 2:2). The hymn writer was correct when he said that “Jesus paid it all”!
So marvelously complete and full is the sacrificial death of Christ for our sins that God’s justice is satisfied by that sacrifice and no man is condemned to hell on the grounds of his sins. But by the same token, the cross of Christ does not automatically regenerate men and women. They still need to obtainlife and this is available to them on one basis only: faith in Christ.
But then, one might ask, why do men’s works come up at all? The reason must surely be that at the Final Judgment mankind will get a full and fair hearing. Since multitudes have supposed that they can reach heaven by their works, these works will be examined on that day. But as Scripture already informs us, no man can be saved by his works (Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; Rom 3:20).
The outcome of the final examination of the works of the lost is a foregone conclusion. Any claim to God’s salvation that is based on the deeds a person has done will be swept away by the contents of the books that are opened at the judgment. Man’s one last hope will rest in the Book of Life, which will be duly consulted even though those being judged do not have their names written there. But the absence of their names from its pages is the basis on which the lost are cast into the lake of fire.
Thus one can see that the issue at the Final Judgment is not man’s sin, since Christ has atoned for that in its entirety. Instead, the issue is whether someone can make it into the kingdom of God on the basis of the works they did on earth, apart from the miracle of new birth that comes by faith alone. But as the Lord Jesus informed Nicodemus, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3).
This article is excerpted from Harmony With God by Zane Hodges
Timgrady. Hi I find the Bible easy to understand when you put FROM SIN every time you read the words " save, saved or salvation" ( Matt 1:21) Jesus DID die to save us from oir sins but God did not create robots. Gen 3:15 God gave us another chance by giving us the power of choice. Jesus cannot choose for us . If people choose to continue in sin it shows they have not been saved ( from sin) and worse God will send them strong delusions if they have pleasure in unrighteousness that they will believe a lie. Sin and righteousness ARE WORKS. Sin is the DEAD opposite of righteousness and wages of sin is STILL death Rom 6:23. No one can out their names in the Lambs B.O.L, only God can . Isa 4:1 says today there will be people who believe what they want to, do what ever suit them only they call THEMSELVES Chrstians to take away Gods reproach for their sinning. Only God can give us a new name by being an overcomer from sin as He overcame Rev 3:12, 21. There will be no defeated wimps in heaven who have meekly capitulated to the wiles off the devil Rev 15: 2. I would rather man call me a legalists than God to call me an ILLEGALISTS and incur His execration and wrath against sin and people who do not want to give their sins to Jesus the Lamb to take away
@@EricHort-cx1jp
Tim thinks John 3:16 &
Ephesians 2:8-9 are for salvation and any of Jesus's teaching on repentance obedience, surrender, being a disciple is something he parrots mockingly referring to it as Lordship Salvation.
As IF those who have surrendered to Jesus's Lordship are following a works based salvation. Ironically he follows a flesh based false salvation.
@@EricHort-cx1jp
You're a Filthy , Horrible and disgusting sinner...
... like me and every other mere human who's ever existed .
So , you indeed "continue to sin" .
A lot .
So do I , and every other mere human who's ever existed .
Jesus took all of the Penalty for all sins ever committed , that Propitiated (1 John 2:2 ; John 1:29) fully .
Not partially .
Seems you don't understand How Flawless and PERFECT is His work of Redemption that He alone accomplished , without any of our supplemental help .
Seems you're instead looking to your Fully Fallible , and utterly Imperfect behavioral performance (works) till death to earn , merit , and ultimately DESERVE entrance into His Kingdom based upon your hopefully good enough works.
Truly , a Mission Impossible .
Couldn't be a Less plausible proposition this side of eternity .
Completely contradictory to Ephesians 2:8-9 ; Romans 3:20-5:11,11:6,29 ; Titus 3:5 ; Philippians 3:9 ; Galatians .
There's not a Sub Nano Particle of evidence supporting your Working for a Free and Never Deserving Gift Theology .
Reduces to sheer incoherence on the Level of Square Circles , 4 Sided Triangles , Married Bachelors , and One Ended Sticks .
In other words , that which can NEVER HAPPEN in a Universe where the Laws of Logic are Operational .
Looking to one's Perseverance in Performance (works) till death completely rejects His Finished Work of Redemption that fully paid the Price - that purchased the Free Gift itself - and seeks to glorify oneself instead .
Naked unbelief in Him for His doubtless Guarantee of Endless Everlasting Life .
That attempt to Earn Grace and thus DESERVE the Never Deserving Gift of Endless Life is a duplication of the heart of the Judaizers/unregenerate Scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 23) who always "seek to establish their own righteouness" , having rejected His Free Gift of endless Life/eternal Justification before God (Romans 4:1-8) .
All such attempts to "come in some other way" by Boastful means (contra Ephesians 2:8-9) , precisely echo the criteria invoked by those in Matthew 7 :
"Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many mighty works ?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
"Mighty works performed...in YOUR NAME"
"LORD , LORD..." .
These are clearly Lordship Salvation proponents here , not unlike your proposition .
Wrong criteria .
Won't open the gates to eternal life .
The ONLY Righteousness that enters is His imputation of the Free Gift itself , entirely apart from all Working for it attempts to DESERVE it :
Romans 4:1-8 .
It's probably a Great idea to understand Jesus' context when making a teaching. Oh, an btw, Jesus said he "Chose" the 12 and one of them was Judas. Up until the betrayal Judas was considered a Disciple. In Jesus' time there were teachers that had Disciples. Jesus in his Discipleship teachings was expressing the perfect standards it would cost to be a disciple of the Son of God in Jesus. That Jesus was no ordinary teacher. Even the Disciples didn't hold to the standards of discipleship. Jesus' teachings on Discipleship were used to express how Jesus was far greater than just being a mere disciple of a gifted teacher. The stories of the 12 disciples is not one of 12 guys doing a perfect job actually being disciples. They had doubt, infighting, lapses of good judgement, Lack of understanding. The Apostle Paul himself confronted Peter one of the main Disciples of the 12! I really think it's important to get Jesus' teachings in our heads at a deeper level than just these flattened simplistic correlations to modern thinking and life and modern application and understand the context and times Jesus was teaching in.
:
Soljos ther are two types of sin 1John 5 a sin unto death and a sin not unto death . Inadvertent sin or mistakes can be forgiven . Wilful sin can't be forgiven Heb 10: 26, 27. If we know we are breaking the law ( transgression) it is iniquity and can't be forgiven. Matt 7 : 21 -27. Iniquity is sin against the HOLY Spirit. Sin is breaking a y of the 10 commands of which the 4th is an integral part as much as murder or stealing etc.
There's not a single passage of Scripture stating the following :
"Willful sin cannot be forgiven" .
Ever .
You made that up out of Whole Cloth .
One's forgiveness is Never an Everlasting consideration , but only a temporal Fellowship matter in every conceivable Exegetical usage .
Everlasting Life is apart from all behavioral performance (works) :
John 3:16 & Ephesians 2:8-9 .
One's eternal rewards are indeed predicated on one's faithfulness , obedience , and Perseverance in Performance (works) AFTER being irreversibly born again , apart from any meritorious means .
Acts 10:43 & 1 John 1:6-9 directly refute your assertion .
Fellowship forgiveness is unavailable to all who are unregenerate , not having been born again with irrevocable Everlasting Life by simple childlike faith in Him FOR the Free Gift .
Whoever dies as an unbeliever remains a forever slave to sin (John 8:24) .
Sin is never the reason one goes to the endless lake of fire .
Only reason is one's name isn't found in the Book of Life (Revelation 20:15 ; John 3:18) , caused by unbelief in Him for His Never Deserving Gift .
Thus , without the Only kind of Life (Everlasting) that enters His Kingdom .
One is only invested with His Free and Never Deserving Gift of endless Everlasting Life when one believes in Him FOR that Never ending Gift , as Paul himself designates about himself:
..."as an example of them who believe in Him For Eternal Life" (1 Timothy 1:16) .
Looks like you think your behavioral performance (works) instead is the "Infallible Metric " of your Everlasting destination .
No more poignant example of the rejection of His Free and Never Deserving Gift .
Jesus Fully Finished all the work of Redemption Himself , without any of our supplementation .
Looks like you Don't think He literally removed the Sin Barrier Himself , having Paid the Penalty (1 John 2:2) .
That same idea is exactly what those in Hebrews 10 were doing : rejection of His PERFECT Redemption and a return to Legalism .
What Can Eternally Secure Believers Lose? Their Physical Lives
July 2, 2021 by Shawn Lazar in Blog - consequences, Death, James, physical death, Sin, Thieme
What can believers lose by sinning?
People wrongly charge Free Grace of holding to eternal security at the expense of ignoring the warning passages of Scripture. Not true. On the contrary, we acknowledge those warnings and take them seriously. But more importantly, we take them in context. For example, as James says, sin brings forth death:
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death (James 1:15).
Everlasting life is everlasting. Once you have it, you have it forever. But is that true of the believer’s physical life? Does it go on forever?
No.
Unless you’re alive at the time of the Rapture, you will die physically. And as James warns, sin can hasten the process. Did you know that one of the consequences of sin is that it can put you in an early grave?
That’s what happened to the Corinthians who showed contempt for each other at the Lord’s Supper:
For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep (1 Cor 11:30).
The Corinthians were born-again, Spirit-filled people, and they died too soon because of sin. You cannot lose your salvation, but you can lose your life!
Likewise, John warned the believers about the deadly consequences of sin, too:
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death (1 John 5:16-17).
Zane Hodges thought something was puzzling about what John said. Since all sin can lead to death (as per Jas 1:15), why does John say that some do and some don’t? Hodges reasoned that John must mean some sins lead directly to death. Think of Ananias, Sapphira, and the Corinthians. Hodges argued these especially deadly sins are related to “a severe breach of the sanctity of the Christian assembly” (Hodges, The Epistles of John, p. 233). Tony Evans agrees, saying,
This is sin that results in the physical death of a believer. We see examples of this in Scripture when God takes unrepentant believers home before their time (see 1 Cor 3:16-17; 11:30). These are typically gross sins against the body of Christ. In view here is not a believer struggling with sin (after all, the church is a hospital for sinners) but a hard-headed fool who adopts a harsh, unloving attitude towards God’s people.
When someone wreaks havoc in the family of God, he may experience severe discipline from the Lord (The Tony Evans Bible Commentary, p. 1379).
So, according to Hodges and Evans, if your actions harm the church, you can experience severe discipline unto death.
However, I wonder if John is making a broader point about all kinds of sin. After all, isn’t it common knowledge that some sins are deadlier than others? For example, getting impatient with your children for leaving a mess around the house is a sin (cf. Eph 4:2). But will you directly die from it? Probably not. But what would happen if you stole from a drug cartel? Sin is deadly. But some sins are deadlier than others.
R. B. Thieme had a term for when Christians rebelled against God: reversionism. As Thieme explained, the believer reverts back to his or her former state which invites the discipline of God:
The sin unto death is administered only after prolonged and unchecked reversionism, after failure to respond to warning and intensive discipline (Jer 44:9-12; Ezek 20:13; Phil 3:18-19). This ultimate destruction is confined to time and in no way implies the loss of eternal salvation (Thieme, Reversionism, p. 46).
Thieme’s last point is crucial for a well-rounded understanding of eternal security. Once saved, always saved does not mean believers can sin without consequences. And just as importantly, you should read the warning passages in context. If a passage threatens the loss of your physical life, you should not re-interpret it to mean you can lose your eternal life. If James warns about sin getting you killed, then that’s what he means.
In sum, immorality is deadly-even for the eternally secure believer, which is another reason to stop sinning.
@@soljos1190
Have you made Jesus your Lord?
If so how ?
IF not why ?
@@timgrady4630
You get your theology from Shawn Lazar?
You are so decieved.
Unrepentant sin brings death doesn't mean physical death, obviously everyone will die, James 1:15 means spiritual death in the lake of fire.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death.
How are sins forgiven? Only through repentance which Lazar rejects.
@@2Chronicles714_
Jesus is Lord .
I , nor you - nor any other mere human who's ever existed - "MAKES HIM LORD" .
That's His intrinsic Title by way of His essential Attributes .
Your question is very transparently a "Loaded Question" , not unlike the question :
"So , when is it you stopped abusing your wife ?"
The question itself has a presupposition built into it .
Point is , there's not a mere human who's ever existed who - 100% 24/7/365 for a Lifetime - has "Made Jesus"Lord" , in the Behavioral Performance (works) sense you're affirming .
Not me .
Not you .
Nor any other Wretched , Filthy , Vile , Horrific and Disgusting sinner...which would account for every conceivable mere human... EVER .
You seem to think you're behavioral performance (works) are BETTER THAN OTHERS .
And your behavioral performance (works) till death will put "god" in Debt to you for the Reward you'll receive at the Finish Line .
Cuz you don't think He Finished all the Work of Redemption Himself .
Right ?
You really think it's ultimately "Up To You" to earn , merit , be paid with , be rewarded with... DESERVE...
... WAIT FOR IT...the Free and Never Deserving Gift of Endless Everlasting Life .
Precisely as the Judaizers/unregenerate Scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 23) who establish the Template for the rejection of His Free Gift, in favor of self righteous Idolatry masquerading as Religiosity .
All of whom are energized by their "father the Devil" , the originator of just such Prideful Arrogance rooted in one's "Stellar and better than Thou Performance" (works) .
That REALLY is who you are , when all the Fluff and Feathers are boiled off .
You're in here constantly Boasting about your Better than Thou Performance (works) , contrary to Ephesians 2:8-9 .
Couldn't be a more pitiful and glaringly Obvious contradiction to His Free and Never Deserving Gift of irrevocable Everlasting Life in the annals of History .
There's no Jesus.Paleo Hebrew Yahawashi.
Why does the Universe exist , rather than sheer and utter Nothingness ?