DEBATE: Mazza vs. Sungenis on Fatima
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
- Mazza: www.edmundmazz...
Sungenis: www.robertsung...
Music: Dvorak, 9th Symphony, 4th Movement Philadelphia Orchestra, Leopold Stokowski, conductor. Recorded October 22, 1934
Digital transfer by F. Reeder. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 via Archive.org archive.org/de...
Based on a review of the evidence with @Kevinsymonds et al., MOC has decided not to field the "Fake Sister Lucia" hypothesis, since it seems to lack substantial evidence and the forensic evidence seems to be misleading. This could change if substantial evidence is presented. Comments on this are here: th-cam.com/video/1CVXpMjs_7I/w-d-xo.html
One could argue with that, but, at any rate, the "fake Sr Lucia hypothesis" does not change one word of her memoirs written before 1957, nor any of the interview with Fr Fuentes 26th Dec 1957. The integral Fatima message is there, and one can safely disregard anything "Sr Lucia" said post 1957.
Invite Chris Ferrara ESQ instead of more rabbit holes ~ thanks Tim ~ donating to your Apostolate later today ~ Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us 🙏📿🙏
20:08 Christ the King makes no deals with atheists (Lucifer) ~ the Vatican has not obeyed Heaven ~ this is why the topic remains unresolved 100 years later, and the errors of Russia (atheistic socialism) continues to spread throughout the world, and in fact, have been reset. Great discussion though, Tim. Abp Fulton Sheen (whom I grew up watching at my house) had a lot to say about Fatima, even miracles at Fatima years later & about the counter-church as well...
31:50 Our Lady doesn't care about how "Orthodox" Russia became post World War II ~ when CATHOLICISM was still banned in the atheistic socialist regime. The "conversion of Russia" is meant to be to the CATHOLIC CHURCH (the Body) not to a schismatic, unrecognized sect that does not properly honor Our Lady, who if NOT IMMACUALTE, leaves her Son in what condition??? ("but nothing") Per Luke, the Archangel Gabriel says she is "full of grace, and blessed by God, who Christ is with." She is the Co-Redemptrix: leading the flock & those led astray to her Son for redemption (newsflash to Bergolio). She magnifies HER SON. Know Mary, know Christ ~ No Mary, No Christ. Likened to Noah's Ark, or the Gate of Heaven, she gives birth to the Savior & through her, His salvation, so that all "could" be saved when OBEDIENT to God, almighty. It may be time to start my own youtube... apologies for too many comments.
37:00 The question Dr Mazza asked, "What about the Lord asking blessed Alexandrina do Costa to instruct Rome to Consecrate the World in the late 1930s" isn't about Alexandrina ~ or who knows about her ~ it accounts for the temporary peace at the end of World War II, and regarding the Vatican failure to directly consecrating Russia ~ along with ALL the Bishops in the world (whether in diocese or in Rome wouldnt matter because it was not stated directly, unlike the consecration of Russia ~ which still has yet to occur because of COWARDS)
To me it is clear that the promise Our Lady made has not been fulfilled. Our Blessed Mother's words were "In the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world. In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved" . In my humble opinion for this prophecy to have been accomplished the scourge of communism would have been defeated.
Have you been born again like it says in John 3-3-? Once you are born again you will be able to see the truth. The HOLY SPIRIT will lead you into all truths. These appiritions and statues moving are not Mary. They are always weeping in torment. Mary cannot hear our prayers, we are only to pray, worship, and serve GOD ONLY (Matthew 4-10-). This is why when the wise men walked into the house and saw Mary with Jesus, they ONLY bowed down to JESUS and worshipped HIM ONLY (Matthew 2-11-). Mary had sin just like everyone else in the world, ONLY GOD is good (Mark 10-18-) this is why she had to offer two turtle doves in the temple and called JESUS her SAVIOUR, because she needed to be saved as well. Come out of the catholic religion, come out of all religions, and just come straight to the ONLY ONE who can save you, JESUS is the ONLY ONE (John 14-6-)! There are no rosaries in the bible, JESUS HIMSELF says do not pray in vain repetition, there are no sacred hearts of Mary or JESUS, there are no sacraments in the bible, there is no purgatory, there are no more priest, second commandment thou should not make any graven images. Call no man father on earth because you only have ONE FATHER WHO is in heaven (Matthew 23-9-) JESUS is our last true HIGH PRIEST WHO fulfilled all the law for us. It is done already, (Collosians 2-14-) that's why on the cross HE said, "It is finished"! Just put your faith and trust in HIM.
18:52
Needless to say, I would not expect a "garden of Eden" during the coming period of peace. But I would expect the following:
#1. Men will be free to farm God's good earth and develop businesses free of the bevy of regulations we have now.
#2. Society will consist of married men with large families.
#3. The churches will be packed on Sunday with LONG lines at the confessional. The liturgy will be traditional and reverent.
#4. Men and women can walk the streets modestly dressed, without fear of harassment.
#5. Society will be ordered, with the vast majority of people rising to the Angelus Bell and retiring shortly after sunset.
#6. Monasteries will flourish. Learning in the arts will explode. The world will be full of great artists, composers, craftsmen, artisans, and writers, all living for the love of their work and completely disinterested in amassing filthy lucre.
#7. Criminals will be imprisoned, and heretics will be condemned.
#8. The pope will proclaim Our Lady Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of All Graces.
(And so much more.)
"The churches will be packed on Sunday with LONG lines at the confessional. The liturgy will be traditional and reverent. "
"Criminals will be imprisoned, and heretics will be condemned."
Etc.
You seem to conflate "peace" with "ideal Christian world." Whereas it most likely means a cessation of a state of severe persecution/punishment.
@@AveChristusRex
I daresay you have no idea of the greatness of Our Lady nor of Fatima. And Why would God grant peace to a world that wallows in sin and shakes its collective fist at the Divine Mercy?
No, when the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart dawns it will be unlike anything the world has ever seen. It might even be that men will beat their proverbial swords into plowshares as foretold by Isaiah.
After this night of storms the dawn will be truly glorious.
@@whitewolf1298 I think we have to be charitable in letting people draw their own conclusions without calling each other heretics who doubt the power of God etc. We just have to agree to disagree. God bless.
@C&M K
Why don't you check in with St Dominic and St Vincent Ferrer.
I will grant you, that, worldwide, they were never true- but this was the case in large swaths of Christendom in the 6th to 10th Centuries.
At one time Europe had 50,000 monasteries. A pilgrim could walk from Portugal to Poland, at 10 miles a day, and find rest in a monastery every night.
@C&M K
Who are "they"? Does this pronoun refer to the kings and politicians, the abbots and doctors, or the priests and bishops?
And what do you mean by "Progress"? From where are you coming and to where are you going?
How's about just thinking along these lines:
"Seek first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you."
When we cooperate with the Holy Ghost, good things happen just by the very nature of the way God created things. And when we decide that we don't need God and we can "improve" things...
Thank you for this.
Dr Mazza is a conventional thinker and is no match for Dr Sungenis who is original and is no doubt more at home outside the box. He is more interesting and most likely closer to the truth regarding the controversial issue of the CONSECRATION OF RUSSIA.
Good point, and true.
Excellent job gentlemen!!! Every anti modernist Catholic who actually take The Faith Seriously, are VERY familiar with and respect both of the good doctors tremendously. Not only for fighting for the Faith on the front lines and standing up for objective Truth .
Thank you TS Flanders for putting this debate together and hosting it as well. Well done Sir.
*¡VIVA CRISTO REY!*
*OUR LADY OF FATIMA, PRAY FOR US*
Have you been born again like it says in John 3-3-? Once you are born again you will be able to see the truth. The HOLY SPIRIT will lead you into all truths. These appiritions and statues moving are not Mary. They are always weeping in torment. Mary cannot hear our prayers, we are only to pray, worship, and serve GOD ONLY (Matthew 4-10-). This is why when the wise men walked into the house and saw Mary with Jesus, they ONLY bowed down to JESUS and worshipped HIM ONLY (Matthew 2-11-). Mary had sin just like everyone else in the world, ONLY GOD is good (Mark 10-18-) this is why she had to offer two turtle doves in the temple and called JESUS her SAVIOUR, because she needed to be saved as well. Come out of the catholic religion, come out of all religions, and just come straight to the ONLY ONE who can save you, JESUS is the ONLY ONE (John 14-6-)! There are no rosaries in the bible, JESUS HIMSELF says do not pray in vain repetition, there are no sacred hearts of Mary or JESUS, there are no sacraments in the bible, there is no purgatory, there are no more priest, second commandment thou should not make any graven images. Call no man father on earth because you only have ONE FATHER WHO is in heaven (Matthew 23-9-) JESUS is our last true HIGH PRIEST WHO fulfilled all the law for us. It is done already, (Collosians 2-14-) that's why on the cross HE said, "It is finished"! Just put your faith and trust in HIM.
You really threw me for a loop at the beginning mixing up the Ave Maria and the second to last part of the Angelus.
Have you been born again like it says in John 3-3-? Once you are born again you will be able to see the truth. The HOLY SPIRIT will lead you into all truths. These appiritions and statues moving are not Mary. They are always weeping in torment. Mary cannot hear our prayers, we are only to pray, worship, and serve GOD ONLY (Matthew 4-10-). This is why when the wise men walked into the house and saw Mary with Jesus, they ONLY bowed down to JESUS and worshipped HIM ONLY (Matthew 2-11-). Mary had sin just like everyone else in the world, ONLY GOD is good (Mark 10-18-) this is why she had to offer two turtle doves in the temple and called JESUS her SAVIOUR, because she needed to be saved as well. Come out of the catholic religion, come out of all religions, and just come straight to the ONLY ONE who can save you, JESUS is the ONLY ONE (John 14-6-)! There are no rosaries in the bible, JESUS HIMSELF says do not pray in vain repetition, there are no sacred hearts of Mary or JESUS, there are no sacraments in the bible, there is no purgatory, there are no more priest, second commandment thou should not make any graven images. Call no man father on earth because you only have ONE FATHER WHO is in heaven (Matthew 23-9-) JESUS is our last true HIGH PRIEST WHO fulfilled all the law for us. It is done already, (Collosians 2-14-) that's why on the cross HE said, "It is finished"! Just put your faith and trust in HIM.
16:53
I didn't know apparitions came with an expiration date, Robert. News to me. Next time I'll read the fine print at the bottom of the can of worms you just opened.
I don't have a clue about the status of the consecration, and it seems to me that attempting to figure it out would, for me, be a distraction from what Our Lord requires of my time.
BUT, there IS a pretty clear takeaway from this and other controversies: The popes and bishops, starting sometime in the mid-20th century and going pretty consistently ever sense, have tended to STINK at establishing CLARITY and speaking BOLDLY.
If your church has a Magisterium, you might be forgiven for thinking it was their job to TEACH. But the faithful don't have a clue what's done and what isn't; what's right and what's wrong; who's orthodox and who's heretical...and that lack of clarity feeds all the conspiracy theories. (On this occasion I'm using the term "conspiracy theories" as a neutral descriptor, not a dismissal. Due to all the lack of clarity, I have no principled way to be certain that any of the conspiracy theories are incorrect!) Really: What's the point of having a Magisterium that theoretically COULD instruct the faithful, but in practice leaves them wallowing in confusion?
What I love about Thomas Aquinas is that he's CLEAR. He draws distinctions, and with a little prep-work in Aristotelian metaphysics you can usually tell exactly what he's saying, and what he isn't. I want somebody like THAT for Pope, and another six dozen of them for Cardinals, and hopefully for my own bishop. And then I want them to man up and speak plainly about all the controversies of the last hundred years, settle all the lingering unsettled issues, and then move the heck on!
Speed the day! ...but until then, it's Muddy Waters (not the bluesman; the intellectual environment) all day, every day, ad infinitum, ad nauseam....
Really both bring up valid points, I welcome both points of view. Fact of the matter is if it was done right from the begging there would be no debate. You can't fault either one, because for some reason the POWERS the be were not transparent from the beginning.
Dr. Mazza you were so charitable! You have a new fan! and Dr. Sungenis I do totally agree with you.
they replaced our beloved Sr Lucy with an unknown actress imposter sO that is a big problem and no one cares well a film is coming out soon!
Sungenis also says we can't know the future, literally denying what Our Lady has promised! We DO know the future! Our Lady said IT WILL BE LATE, but the pope will consecrate Russia (which has not been done), My Immaculate Heart will triumph (clearly not just a local event) and there will be a period of peace in the world. We have not had a period of peace in the world, even if Americans weren't technically at war, the rest of the world has suffered terribly from wars since 1917. Sungenis is a quack.
So Sugenis accepts the body double theory (highly unlikely and even if true, requires an absolute ton of moving parts and conditions), but doesn’t accept the plain meaning of the words “peace” and “convert”? I really like his geocentrism work, but he’s completely lost the plot.
Have you been born again like it says in John 3-3-? Once you are born again you will be able to see the truth. The HOLY SPIRIT will lead you into all truths. These appiritions and statues moving are not Mary. They are always weeping in torment. Mary cannot hear our prayers, we are only to pray, worship, and serve GOD ONLY (Matthew 4-10-). This is why when the wise men walked into the house and saw Mary with Jesus, they ONLY bowed down to JESUS and worshipped HIM ONLY (Matthew 2-11-). Mary had sin just like everyone else in the world, ONLY GOD is good (Mark 10-18-) this is why she had to offer two turtle doves in the temple and called JESUS her SAVIOUR, because she needed to be saved as well. Come out of the catholic religion, come out of all religions, and just come straight to the ONLY ONE who can save you, JESUS is the ONLY ONE (John 14-6-)! There are no rosaries in the bible, JESUS HIMSELF says do not pray in vain repetition, there are no sacred hearts of Mary or JESUS, there are no sacraments in the bible, there is no purgatory, there are no more priest, second commandment thou should not make any graven images. Call no man father on earth because you only have ONE FATHER WHO is in heaven (Matthew 23-9-) JESUS is our last true HIGH PRIEST WHO fulfilled all the law for us. It is done already, (Collosians 2-14-) that's why on the cross HE said, "It is finished"! Just put your faith and trust in HIM.
Why does no one know how to pronounce 'Lucia'?
Interesting topic , I would like to offer a respectful word of caution ,,, Be carful not to get overly worked up or spend to much time on trying to figure out things the knowledge of we will not be asked on judgment day . Always keep as primary focus on living a Holy Life and keeping the Catholic Faith . Matters of opinion are fine , but never elevate an opinion to the level of Faith , in areas of opinion Liberty.
(Imitation of Christ , First few chapters ), St Augustine - Unity in essentials , Liberty in non essentials , Charity in All things
Minute 53... what dark forces and he goes on and on.... he can't debate the facts.... I can't listen to Sungenis anymore, it's intellectually painful to hear his answers and horrible responses.
This makes me wonder what kind of peace Our Lady meant... could she have been referring to peace, did she mean peace that the world gives or... the peace of Christ?
Seems like a Biblical scale miracle with 70,000 witnesses would not accompany an apparition promising such little recognized positive outcomes: I.e. WWII ends, and that's it. The other conflicts that have raged since then, all subsumed in a peace that only manifests for an enlightened few. China under Mao - wow - very challenging to put 60M+ deaths directly attributable to atheistic Communism behind the curtain of, 'I meant INTERIOR peace, not peace as the world gives.'
I don't believe Fatima was a message just to Catholics, hence the 70,000.
And if the Devil was heard asking God for a hundred years to destroy the Church... well things do seem to be about on schedule, at least on a kairos kind of way if not a chronos way.
I honestly have always thought that the conversion of Russia met to the true Catholic faith! Russia may be better then they where in 1929 but it is not Catholic.AND don’t turn your back on them.
36:00
It was not for the Vatican to "figure out" the message of Tuy- just do what Our Lady asked.
I fundamentally agree with Dr Mazza, but the other point is strong: over 100 years boooooooy.... why not 2 or 3 hundred. Will we (not literally we haha) still be having this debate in 2321?
You all know that the children (Lucia) changed their story about what the woman/girl looked like right?
Sungenis wins.
Why didn't God address the pope directly? This is what I do not understand.
To humble the pope, perhaps, as He does in the Scriptures like with King David
Bl Alexsandrina de Costa has a big thing to play : i am surprised that R.S never heard of it .
It's almost like saying : never heard of john the baptist
Going against the brain that showed us the earth is indeed the center of the universe is a scary proposition. This is another like scenario and Dr Sungenis has opened my eyes to views I didn't consider before.
Valiant effort Dr Mazza. Things could change if we find out Sister Lucia was replaced with a poser.
Dr. Sungenis also said with utter confidence that we'd never see vax passports to attend Mass. But I guess that's happened in Chicago, Canada, New Zealand and other places. Maybe this is another one that has flexibility, 'Well, not very many vax-passport Masses.'.. as in consecration of Russia in union with the bishops is covered under 'consecration of the World by the Pope - no need to unite the bishops'
I wonder what works of interior conversion might have been wrought among the hearts of those Conciliar progressive bishops' to temper the ardor for the spirit of aggiornamento and the enflame the hearts of the weak willed bishops afraid of looking old... we might not have seen bishops against bishops and the ensuing successful power grab in the Curia by what was a minority.
Ya, he has good points.
I think Dr Sungenis laissez-faire attitude towards Our Lady of Akita could be an issue here. It seems obvious that the suppression of the full third secret of Fatima found its outlet in Akita. Who can hope to ever muzzle thr mouth of Mary? Its no surprise the apparitions take place on the 13th there to link it up with Fatima. Clearly Our Lady is still asking for reparations otherwise not wars and errors will spread, but fire will fall from heaven destroying a large part of humanity. We can easily deduce that we are in far worst of a condition than was being seeked to be resolved in 1917. Our current spiritual filth has to be neck deep to warrant a fiery cleansing. Having wars sounds better considering.
@@bowlsantander9730 I'm in Chicago area. Chicago does not have v passports for places of worship.
@@ohms2631 Okay. I thought I saw an item on a particular Catholic church in Chicago that self imposed this - i..e. irrespective of local civil policy on vaxed/unvaxed.
Can u invite Dr. Peter E. Chojnowski from Sister Lucy truth ?
No. His thesis lacks substantial evidence. The forensic evidence is misleading. th-cam.com/video/1CVXpMjs_7I/w-d-xo.html
@@TheMeaningofCatholic but it make for and interesting debate. You have two opposing views here. Why not allow for discussion of the false sister thesis?
@@TheMeaningofCatholic Invite Chris Ferrara ESQ instead of more rabbit holes ~ thanks Tim ~ donating to your Apostolate later today ~ Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us 🙏📿🙏
I fail to understand what Alexandria de Acosta has to do with the debate? It made no sense to bring this person into the discussion.
It is about the separateness of Heaven's two calls for two different consecrations. One is for Russia, the other is for the world. The Pope followed thru on the one for the world but did NOT follow thru on the separate one for Russia. I e. no fair counting success on the one for the world as 'good enuf' to also cover down on Mary's request for consecration of Russia.
You can argue about it - and that's what they're doing here - but you can't say it is not germane.
Russia wasn’t consecrated
Paddy Mcgill-
"I don't know if Dr Sugenis is right but the reaction to his ideas as if it destroys the Faith says alot about how some are way too over reliant on their own intepretations of Fatima"
I think what Paddy is saying here is that: "Many place way too much emphasis on Fatima and make it too central to their Faith and worldview."
Guilty as charged, Paddy. Or, to paraphrase Vince Lombardi, Fatima is not everything, Fatima is the ONLY THING.
Let's face it. We have a "pope" running around giving incense to pagan idols. We have the zaniest "liturgies" in some places. We have bishops enforcing the Covidiocracy. We have politicians who tell us that monetary inflation is good and children have the right to decide what gender they want to be. We have judges presiding over sodomite "unions" and calling them marriages. We have stuff going on every ding-danged day that would make the Roman forum blush. We have had the steady decay of every metric that would define any level of civilization since the 1960's. And just when you think things cannot possibly get any worse- they do.
And for those of us who have studied church history and the ecumenical councils more closely, we are wondering if most of the priests have valid orders and if these bishops are successors of the Apostles.
And for those of us who have studied science- we now realize that we have been lied to about virtually everything.
In such a world Our Lady of Fatima is a secure anchor that will keep us upon the Rock of Jesus Christ while the tsunamis of the coming catagory 7 geopolitical storm wash everything away around us.
Did the woman/girl that appeared to the children wear a short dress?
@@GravityBoy72
Absolutely not. The Fatima Pilgrim Virgin Statue is the model for how Our Lady appeared to Sts Lucia, Jacinta, and Francesco. St Sr Lucia described Our Lady as being clothed entirely in light, more brilliant than the sun.
@@whitewolf1298 Sadly you are wrong. The early interviews with the children are in the archives of the Basilica at Fatima. They were hidden until recently when a couple of UFO researchers (of all people) were given access to them. The children originally said the girl wore a short dress to the knees.
I will add... I used to believe in Fatima. I have been there on pilgrimage. However my faith disappeared when I learnt about this. In later interviews after the first visions the priests asked "how long was the dress this time" - leading questions - Lucia took the hint and the dress became longer - oh and the "ear-rings" disappeared as well (yes they said she had ear-rings).
@@GravityBoy72
You are talking about, I believe, the "work" of Le Mazulli. Completely bogus.
Not consecrated
14:28
And the Robert Sungenis train wreck begins here. In the apparition of Tuy 13 Jun 1929, Our Lady said "The moment has come in which God asks the Holy Father to make, in union with all the bishops of the world, the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart..."
Sorry Robert, but that does not sound very "local" to me, but rather an act which involves all of Holy Mother Church.
I won't comment on Our Lady of Good Success, but Our Lady of La Salette was definitely talking about the future of mankind in general as well as the church in particular.
16:40
If Pius XI would have done the consecration the effects would have come quickly, but after Sr Lucia grew up things changed... and this is so convoluted I'm losing the plot.
At the end, both guest's should have emphasised to pray the rosary..
You’re right. Forgive me. PRAY THE ROSARY
Russia not consecrated
During an interview in the early 1990s, Antonio Ruffini [stigmatic] was asked a question:
“Is John Paul II the Pope who is going to do the Consecration of Russia?
Ruffini answered: No, it won´t be Pope John Paul II and it won´t be his immediate successor either [Pope Benedict XVI], but the one after that [a validly elected and legitimate successor]. He is the one who will consecrate Russia." - Father Paul Kramer, Fatima Conference Idaho 2012 Sept. 28-30 - Mystery of Iniquity, Q & A Session 1
Yeah... I dunno... I'm open to that possibility, but nailing it down to a specific pontificate is harder. Here's why:. All of these good men are bringing excellent help to the faithful, Sungenis with his center of the universe, EMJ with his insights about the cabalists, the oligarchs, logos... But like Fr Ripperger has said, nowadays the closest thing we can get to security is for everyone to study pre VII traditional Catechisms, avoid the seeds, and immerse themselves in prayer and books by authors whose names begin with S. It's the only way to navigate the new wild wild west.
Even Ripperger himself has the good grace if not actual humility to distance himself overtly from any claims of infallibility.
But the Lord will be with us always, He will not abondon us.
So Pope Francis then?
@@standev1 Whoever the "validly elected and legitimate successor" of Pope Benedict XVI is... he is the one who will perform the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary together with all the Catholic Bishops of the world
@@michaelstephen6773 Recall the possibility of the factual historically preserved Prophecy of St. Francis regarding the End of Times, of a Pope not canonically elected who would seat in the Chair of Peter.... He would not be a Paster, but a Destroyer. After 8+ years of a disastrous Pontificate and his attack on Traditional Catholicism (attempting to destroy the perennial authentic Faith) many Catholics are believing in this Prophecy preserved in that book with Imprimatur from the 1800s. The next Pope could be a truly validly elected Pope whom could perform the Consecration right before or after 2029. Those who know Fátima will understand this date clearly.
@@JuanDiegoUlate "Act bravely, my Brethren; take courage, and trust in the Lord. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.
The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation A MAN, NOT CANONICALLY ELECTED, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.
Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.
There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.
Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.
Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. But the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head [Jesus Christ], these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish [physically] rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.
Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer." - Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi, 1882, pp. 248-250 [emphasis added with CAPS]
Regardless, Mr. Sungenis, if West and the whole world needs consecrating - Our Lady of Fatima specified RUSSIA to be consecrated by Pope and all Bishops!!! THIS was not done. Why are you arguing that it had been done based on hairsplitting, semantics and personal speculation, in order to change ... what? the message? the results? What? IN this discussion/debate, Dr. Mazza does win, on all counts.
22:51
I guess neither Pius XII nor Robert got the memo that "WW2" was just a banksta game for fun and profit. Or maybe Pius XII had that memo and just did what he did to make it look like God was with the Allies. I suppose that is something we won't know until Judgment day so I won't speculate.
At any rate, at this point we're hopelessly hung up on WW2. Fatima is much bigger than WW2.
13:00
I don't need "dark forces" to explain why the popes did not consecrate Russia. The popes themselves were adverse to Our Lady's message and its requests. Sr Pascalina said Pius XII had never read the "third secret" even though it was sequestered in a safe on his desk in his office. Pius XII was too busy trying to meld the church with the workers' paradise to bother himself over Heaven's concerns. I know this might sound cynical, but just look at what this man wrote and said after WW2. As the Book Fatima in Twilight put it- his pontificate was magnificently beside the point. After Pius XII... heck, just listen to what those popes said.
3 antipope in a row
I hate to keep spamming the comments, but “you don’t know what’s going to happen in the future” is lazy and pathetic. I’m so extremely disappointed in his showing. It’s not just that I disagree with him, but he’s deploying absolutely garbage arguments
Right. And for that matter, why would the "conversions come later" and peace more proximate to the consecration? Who says? With that logic it could just as easily be argued that BOTH the peace and the conversions would come later and neither be immediately apparent. I just don't think so, at least in the context of a miracle witnessed by 70,000. Seems if Our Lady is willing to go that far with the generation that seeks a sign, it wouldn't be unreasonable to anticipate a much more unequivocal outcome/result from the consecration. Even if we might not be able to predict what the peace and conversion would/will look look like in as vivid detail as one of the other commenters has done in this comment thread.
Sungenis wins the debate IMHO
That's funny... on the contrary IMHO
Agree, sungenis wins
Starts at 4:15
In August 1931, «“Make it known to My ministers that, given they follow the example of
the King of France in delaying the execution of My request, they will follow him into misfortune. IT WILL NEVER BE TOO LATE TO HAVE RECOURSE TO JESUS AND MARY.”» - Alonso, Fatima Ante la Esfinge, p. 97.
@The Meaning of Catholic
Can you please provide a link to the video where you comment on sister Sasagawa saying the consecration not being done as you said to asdf asdf?
Also, why didn't you tell Sungenis that you yourself have seen and commented on these words of Sister Sasagawa?
I’m sorry if I was unclear. What I was saying is that I have commented on the Fake Sister Lucia hypothesis, which lacks any substantial evidence and the forensic evidence is misleading.
th-cam.com/video/1CVXpMjs_7I/w-d-xo.html
Pius XII is one of the greatest Marian devotees there is! The "unbeliever" as he is called by Robert Sungenis, is bearing false witness regarding The Pope's view on Fatima! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
Sungenis wins. Hands down.
I like Dr. Sungenis more however he is overlooking the Patriarchy that automatically inherits responsibility which is the whole point of Natural Law and the 4th Commandment. Good point about world peace and the Assisi Pagan prayer Day however. Nevertheless we’re still waiting for the real consecration. Russia is still aborting babies
Have you been born again like it says in John 3-3-? Once you are born again you will be able to see the truth. The HOLY SPIRIT will lead you into all truths. These appiritions and statues moving are not Mary. They are always weeping in torment. Mary cannot hear our prayers, we are only to pray, worship, and serve GOD ONLY (Matthew 4-10-). This is why when the wise men walked into the house and saw Mary with Jesus, they ONLY bowed down to JESUS and worshipped HIM ONLY (Matthew 2-11-). Mary had sin just like everyone else in the world, ONLY GOD is good (Mark 10-18-) this is why she had to offer two turtle doves in the temple and called JESUS her SAVIOUR, because she needed to be saved as well. Come out of the catholic religion, come out of all religions, and just come straight to the ONLY ONE who can save you, JESUS is the ONLY ONE (John 14-6-)! There are no rosaries in the bible, JESUS HIMSELF says do not pray in vain repetition, there are no sacred hearts of Mary or JESUS, there are no sacraments in the bible, there is no purgatory, there are no more priest, second commandment thou should not make any graven images. Call no man father on earth because you only have ONE FATHER WHO is in heaven (Matthew 23-9-) JESUS is our last true HIGH PRIEST WHO fulfilled all the law for us. It is done already, (Collosians 2-14-) that's why on the cross HE said, "It is finished"! Just put your faith and trust in HIM.
Robert Sungenis is a hypocrite. He accuses Mazza of arguing from silence (side note: not all arguments from silence are invalid), but then argues from silence several times. If Mazza was more skilled in debate, he would have called him out on this.
The Russians also starved to death 3 million Ukrainians! The Korean War started right after WW2, by communists ( errors of Russia) and then Vietnam also with the French first then us in the early 60’s. The US itself has been in continuous wars and conflicts up to today!
10:08
First off, we must hone in on these "errors of Russia". Many people think the errors of Russia are those propagated by the Bolsheviks, and for many years this was plausible, given the Bolsheviks rose to power in 1917 towards the close of the apparitions. But, given that #1, the Bolsheviks were financed by New York Bankers (I guess I should not make too many assumptions- but people should know that Trotsky was put on a boat with some $20 million in gold bullion. The Canadians impounded the boat but were ordered by the British Crown and Washington to allow it to proceed on its merry way.) and #2, that the USSR "collapsed" in 1987 or thereabouts this thesis is no longer very tenable. But the "errors of Russia" more properly exclusively Russian, are Ceasaro-Papism (the direct control of church and state by one man) and schism. These certainly abound in the modern world, where people look to gov't for all authority and where many are in fact detached from the True Catholic Church (as opposed to the "Councilear Church" which is about as Catholic as Cramner's Godly Order).
Next, why would we think that Russia ceased spreading its errors after the collapse of the USSR? Let's face it. The introduction of "freedom and democracy" into Russia caused no discernible revival of faith or morals of any kind whatsoever, but rather introduced Russians to the same decadence which plagued the "west" since the 1960's.
30:02
Many point to the Battle of Stalingrad as a turning point in the war. In point of fact, Stalingrad was a military blunder of the highest order, and obviously, in hindsight, a trap set by the Russians, who probably had access to German secret communications thanks to the global mafia that really runs the world.
At Stalingrad the Germans lost their finest fighting force and saw their logistics shattered- and for no reason. Stalingrad had no military nor strategic value.
Of course, the $64,000 question I have is- where was the Luftwaffe? Were all the pilots vacationing in Switzerland while their comrades on the ground were dying of starvation and running out of ammunition? SOmeday, the world will know.
Have you been born again like it says in John 3-3-? Once you are born again you will be able to see the truth. The HOLY SPIRIT will lead you into all truths. These appiritions and statues moving are not Mary. They are always weeping in torment. Mary cannot hear our prayers, we are only to pray, worship, and serve GOD ONLY (Matthew 4-10-). This is why when the wise men walked into the house and saw Mary with Jesus, they ONLY bowed down to JESUS and worshipped HIM ONLY (Matthew 2-11-). Mary had sin just like everyone else in the world, ONLY GOD is good (Mark 10-18-) this is why she had to offer two turtle doves in the temple and called JESUS her SAVIOUR, because she needed to be saved as well. Come out of the catholic religion, come out of all religions, and just come straight to the ONLY ONE who can save you, JESUS is the ONLY ONE (John 14-6-)! There are no rosaries in the bible, JESUS HIMSELF says do not pray in vain repetition, there are no sacred hearts of Mary or JESUS, there are no sacraments in the bible, there is no purgatory, there are no more priest, second commandment thou should not make any graven images. Call no man father on earth because you only have ONE FATHER WHO is in heaven (Matthew 23-9-) JESUS is our last true HIGH PRIEST WHO fulfilled all the law for us. It is done already, (Collosians 2-14-) that's why on the cross HE said, "It is finished"! Just put your faith and trust in HIM.
@@TheCabin777
"Go therefore into world and preach the gospel to every creature, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost."
"Therefore what God hath joined together (in Holy Matrimony) let no man put asunder."
"Who is She that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in battle array?"
"And behold, a great sign in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon at her feet."
"For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed".
"Blessed art thou amoung woman..."
"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee."
All these verses in Holy Scripture give witness to the truths of the One, Holy, Universal (Catholic in Greek, the same root as a battery cathode) and Apostolic Church and Mary, Our Queen, daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, and spouse of the Holy Ghost.
Yeah, some of these "apparitions" are surely from hell, but not all.
St Paul said to despise not prophecies, but hold fast to that which is good.
Our Lady told St Francis and St Dominic that one day, through the rosary and the scapular, she would save the world from the Antichrist.
The Bible is the work of the Holy Ghost in the church, the church is not the work of the Holy Ghost in the Bible.
For from whence did the Bible come, for the Apostles had no Bible?
Yea, though Rome has lost the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist, yet the gates of hell will not prevail against the Rock of Peter.
Viva Cristo Rey!
@@whitewolf1298 wow you are completely lost and need to be born again! "White wolf in sheep's clothing" would be a better name for you! One verse at a time my friend, and please don't make up stuff, use your Bible as your source of authority, because you definitely have not been born again. Now why is it that you sound like the men at Ephesus in Acts 19-28?
17:21
Robert, "God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart." At this point, can you at least SOUND like a Fatima scholar?
Russia
This is the kind of nonsense and false teachings when you reject Sola Scriptura.