Amazing video! Give us more race car build, workshop insight, alignement, before and after compare content! In other words, more specific petrolhead content!
This is why engineers are sent to Motortrend and others to set up the suspension correctly so they get good times. I think it should be done from Factory but whatever.
@@eichler721 just think about it,there are maybe 10 owners that took the car on the track(talking about the people that bought the pista) and maybe 8 out of them took it for a one time thing or they are not that fast....so sadly the car isnt for them and Ferrari knows this,and gives you the best experience on the road....sadly many of them are not even running on the roads and just sit but that is a completely different discussion
Geometry is a personal preference . There's hardly any car from factory that will suit people who knows how they like their cars to handle . That's the reason we do the Geometry which suits to us personally. It might not suit others.
@@TheLTcousins a Pista is faster then any other supercar on track except the GT2RS. The Pista beats the 720S do ya it is fast. And alot more then 8 people take it to the track. So you could say 8 out of 10 don't but it would help the handling for road use as well so no reason not to do it.
Great video! A Pista at Manthey, Robert will probably get the "Chris Harris" treatment by Ferrari :-) Warranty invalid, no seven years free servicing, no courtesy car, no freebies, no invitations to events, no Fiorano, a restraining order in Maranello, no test drives, only able to buy a second hand California T without service history from a Ferrari dealer. Oh well, the taxi's is better around the Ring.
@@AB-80X Ferrari is by far the most annoying company ever on this aspect, even lowering the car on the already given coilovers void the warranty. These cars are just so weird imho, like the engine and chassis etc are made to blast on track, but then the allignment, tune, and all the warranty stuff block it out. Its like Ferrari just wants their cars to sit in a garage for "investors" to make money!
@@yarniewullaert2025 You are wrong on that. Last week I had my 488 on the bench for allignment. Just prior to that, I had it balanced. I also run Pagid RSL1 pads and Surface Transforms brakes which I installed myself. On top of that, my dealer did my brake fluid flush and change to Castrol SRF fluid. No warranty issues what so ever and have never heard of warranties being void because of lowering. I use one of the largest dealers by the way. Are the issues you speak of from personal experience?
@@yarniewullaert2025 I will also point out that Ferraris are in fact not that track ready. My dealer discovered that my front bushes are in need of a change due to heat from the brakes. I'm sure Robert will encounter this at some point. I have more than 10000 track km on my 488, so I know its weaknesses. I also replaced the rubber brake lines with HEL braided PTFE lines - again no warranty issues. Ferrari has however agreed to replace my bushes under warranty.
Tom - thank you very much for not adding music when Robert is speaking. I can hear him much more clearly now. The security camera footage is a nice touch. I like how you blurred the houses in the background.
I was looking forward to this video already but the insight is simply even better than I hoped. Where else so you get an owner talking about how their car acts on the track and how the changes they’re going to make are going to change it on track. Simply brilliant. My favourite way of learning (apart from hands on) Thank you Robert. Plus the car looks better!
Really nice to you Robert for explaning all this. As a rc racer (with touring cars), we play a lot with these settings, and funny enough, what we get in 1/10 and 1/8 scale seems to be valid for a real car also. And please keep us updated on how it turns out in track (maybe you already did, if so, i will across that video later on...)
Hey Robert, thanks for helping us with creating car and schleife-content to get over the lockdown time. I am missing the ring every day. Hope to see you guys again in the not so distant future. Best regards
Love these videos where you go into the technical details. Always do a great job of explaining everything good stuff. Ride height looking much better now!.
Love the technical info. It’s great to hear such a humble approach to these cars. Hopefully were all back to normal life soon than later. ❤️ from Canada.
Fascinating to watch AND LEARN! Just what a broke petrol head like me enjoys. You certainly know your stuff. Amazing to get to understand the differences in a Ferrari setup compared to a tack driver prefers.
I wouldn't use this guy as your guide for alignment. He doesn't genuinely seem to understand the real effects of toe in and toe out. He's also not really explained the link between camber and grip from front to rear. Toe in, is NOT a track alignment. Toe in is used for high speed straight line stability. It will make turn in lazier, slower and less keen. The whole point of toe out is that balancing it correctly, allows the inside and outside tyres to track the road correctly on turn-in. It has nothing to do with "dragging and making the car stable in a straight line". I actually have no idea why robert keeps going on about "toe out" making the car more stable in a straight line, it does literally the exact opposite of this. Toe out has the front wheels fighting each other and makes steering more twitchy, these are the downsides of the fact that it also allows for fantastic turn-in response on entry into a corner. Toe-In, increases straight line stability, but at expense of cornering grip and turn in sharpness. This guy needs to go learn about track alignments property, rather than repeating stuff he thinks he knows.
Pretty shocking the way these things are setup from the factory. I guess they're doing everything they can to keep their clientele from putting them in ditches. While I'm sure it's nice to not have to slow down to hop the curb to the Apex driveway, that front ride height has to create lift at speed. Really cool to hear this level of in-depth analysis on the handling of these exotic cars!
Absolutely GREAT video content, Robert! As fresh Pista owner and hard-core trackday aficionado (at the Ring, so I will for sure see you around + Spa & co.), I look forward to the video with the info how the Pista now handles on track (I haven't tracked my Pista yet, took delivery of it just before the coronavirus issue). I come from 991.1 GT3RS, 997.2 GT3RS, Cayman GT4, etc. and I hope the Pista will not disappoint me too much with the stock setup... Based on what you explain, it will and this is why the result of the MR setting is of high interest for me!
I just saw a video where Wheels Boutique in Miami put an IPE exhaust and Novitec lowering springs on the 488 Pista and even looking at yours I didnt realize just how high that car was until i saw it on lowering springs with a 1 inch gap between the tire and fender. They also stuck HRE wheels and a 355 size tire on the back which is huge compared to the 305 that comes on the back.
Thanks Robert, you saved me from spending a whole stack of cash on a 488 Pista that handles like a complete sack of shit on track :):):) Shall stick with my Fiesta ST-3 till Ferrari get their act together! Phew, so close to wasting my time on a 'monster truck' But seriously I hope this won't effect your 'history of ownership' regarding a future invitation to the latest & greatest Ferrari.
0.8 deg of camber in the front! Goodness (or badness) me, that's more upright than a fence hahaha. Very insightful with regards to Ferrari's factory alignment and driving characteristics. Can't wait to see how the Pista (should they have rather called it the Strada?) performs, post alignment!
Hi Robert, One thing to try and can help to understand the setup and what to change is a bump steer analysis, how camber and toe changes with ride height/bump-rebound situations. Very interesting video. Thanks.
You need to slam the car, widebody it, new 24” rims and twin turbo with a supercharger and 200 shot of NOS. Do that and you can be a REAL youtuber. Hope you get her running better.
Also, can you please review the carporn fiberr interior trim 4 us Robert? Also, I have a Peugeot 207 1.4 and would like to know how many minutes I can save on my nurburing lap if I install carbon fiberr wrapped gear shifter? Many thanks!
I have always said you should keep it. So if anything good comes out of the corona situation - here it is 😉 Great video. Looking forward to see your review after a run at the track. 👍
There's only so much you can lower the car with the OEM suspension before you run into the issue of not having enough damper travel, so it's not surprising that Ferrari have limited it to 10-11mm lower than stock. You may also want to look at adding more caster if Ferrari has made it possible. Not only will it help the stabilize the steering on its own, but for the same amount of static camber (as measured on the alignment rack), it will gain more dynamic camber as the wheel is turned and you go through the turn.
On all the modern Ferrari's you need to unload the spring ie: remove the assembly & compress the spring, the threads on the collars do not have the tolerance to be adjusted with a load on them. they can easily become "crossed". There is enough thread on the collars to lower it radically. :)
I work on the 488 challenge cars and the toe sound about right for those. 2mm out on the front and around 2mm in on the rear. There is much more camber on the front though. The anti roll bars are adjustable by means of two holes which gives 4 settings. Stiff, medium, soft and off. Maybe its worth looking at or trying some Challenge parts?
I’m pretty sure most of the challenge parts would fit the road cars. If you plan on tracking the car, there are a few good simple things you can do to save problems occurring too. Best of luck with it 👍🏻
Hey Robert, couldn‘t you also avoid front axle understeer by installing wider tyres in the front? 245 seems very small for such a high performance car.
Mooi gedaan. Er zijn echter 3 zaken gewijzigd,hoogte,sporing en camber. Wat komt nu waarvan? Wat zou er gebeuren met wat uitspoor met deze hoeveelheid camber? Komt er dan weer ongewenst onderstuur,of ongewenst heftig insturen? Wil Ferrari zijn klanten tegen zigzelf beschermen met dit soort veilige afstellingen?
Great content Robert, really quite unique on TH-cam. One small technical comment - your toe measurement in is in millimeters, which is another way of measuring it other than angle. Normally you would not run 1 deg toe in/out as that's a lot.
Really well commented and justified for the changes, and also how you clarify that is your taste and your opinion and how you feel it so no one can say anything about it. Is going to be interesting to hear your outcomes once is driven on the track and if at that point is required to change the stiffness of either springs or antiroll bars to remove some more understeer tendency
Digging the video, thanks! Really surprised at the alignment specs on this car out of the box and the inability to really adjust for more camber. Hmm. Curious to hear your feedback on it though!
I think that not many people are adjusting these cars.. .quite limited unfortunately. I have learned that if you want to have true track cars, these are not the property base to get there
You would be shocked at how many cars, also "sports" cars don't allow for any or very little adjustment with stock suspension. Sadly when you watch review of a car like Pista you dont get a chance to see elements of suspension and underbody, so you don't get to see how many cars are equipped with camber plates etc.
Excited to see how much different you think the track driving is. I love the Pista and if you get a full suspension for the car I would love a comparison to the GT2RS suspension and get your thoughts.
What a great video. Very helpful. One thing. The dry weight of the Pista is not 1300, but rather 1385, so you are "only" 167 over wet w. 30 kg driver. That's not bad at all.
@@RobertMitchell Have you considered running other brakes on the Pista? I have worked with Surface Transforms and thei CCST discs, and am running the first set on a 488 and Pista. Works awesome.
Really cool breakdown on car setup and the Pista in particular. There is little to no value proposition in modding a Pista, so what are the characteristics or thinking in adapting the car. What makes the Pista worthwhile keeping/investing in? Outside of the current market situation of course.
I'm really surprised at how little camber and ride height adjustment is available on this car. Is it possible to transplant upper, lower control arms and shocks from the competition versions to gain more adjustability? How do this car's alignment specs compare to the GT2RS MR's? From the videos it looks like the GT2RS MR is running around 3 degrees of camber in front, maybe more.
Thank you Robert for the insight into the way you want your Pista to drive and feel. I do find that odd with the suspension threads not going any lower. As I said in Misha’s comments Ferrari should listen to the 1% of its drivers that want tweaks/changes that would improve the car on track. You mentioned about perhaps completely changing the suspension, but would that affect the Ferrari warranty?
Yes it would for sure cause an issue with warranty and I’m sure they’d even write me a letter telling me I ruined their car..... I think it’s not the platform for modding anyhow
Hi Robert!. Do you know what spring rates and motion ratios (or wheel rate or ride frequency) does the Pista have with stock springs? Thank you and great video 🙂🙂
Robert, this is a very common misunderstanding. With most suspension types if you drop the car 10 mm the roll centers drop anything between 20 to 30 mm. That means that the arm from the suspension linkage force center (RC) to the CoG actually increases. So with most cars just dropping without changing AR-bars or/and springs you can not diminish roll. You will actually increase it! You will however diminish lateral weight transfer as ultimately (statically, center corner) it is only a function of track width and CoG altitude. You were probably lucky not to be able to drop the Pista more. If you do that you will need an aftermarket adjustability. If you dont believe, go and ask the Manthey vehicle dynamicists, not the ones who think they know (there always is those). Yeah, Ive done race engineering and my homework.
This is all true DEPENDING on how the car is set up from the factory in my case the car is set way too high and even beyond their factory desired set up. (A mistake) There is always the point of Diminishing results as you mention but you’re assuming that we would have gone beyond that?! from what we measured another 7mm lower would have been ideal and would not have run the Control arms too low. My car came ready for Dakar Rally. . Of course in any set up you have to be reasonable. Also changing springs is not the answer. If you Lower too much with springs, it’s the same issue as your going to have as the geometry of the control arm change just the same. The only correct way to do it uf you really want to change The ride height dramatically and correctly is by using a shorter spring and relocating the mounting point of the lower control arm or by simply lowering the car with a drop Spindel. If your car is higher than optimal deign demands and you bring it lower to where it should have been then yes you will correct Te cog and yes you will reduce roll. I don’t want to be rude but suggesting a spring fixes the issue your implying we may have has is very wrong as that makes the problem even worse as it dramatically changes the geo of the lower control arm when you go too far. so a little more homework May be needed... or at least better clarification. Also: the car drives now 100 times better and in photos has noticeably less body roll. Go a few videos forward and the results are in I believe this is about the best that the Pista can get on stock components.
Well, first of all I can tell from your other video that you are an analytic driver, sort of ”dream driver” for the engineer. Second, everything I said stays put and everything you said is valid - most of the time. You may know that the RC in this kinda cars is lower at the front as at the rear. My preference is to keep the front RC above the ground level. Actually RC at the ground or at the proximity of it means that lateral and vertical loads are decoupled in the contact patch and it gives a nice turn in on uneven surface (given that your roll stiffness split is ok). I always try to get all the numbers and feed them to an excel sheet Ive done to see how the parameters affect (first in relation to ”handbook values” and ultimately to the roll stiffness ratio). Ive never really seen TUV accepted spindles with lowered pic up points. What it usually means they bespoke for racing purposes (given the regs allow). However, I noticed that the pic up points at the inboard of the Pista are half clever and actually might offer a way to lower the inboard points. But is it worth it? Most likely not as you are happy with the car now. Also consider what might have happened also is that lowering the car affected the roll stiffnes ratio between fr and r. About the toe-in/toe-out I agree with you. I dont think any car in the traffic should have toe-out at front as it makes a darty. Further more toe-out at fr usually helps only in the slowest corners - and if the car has an understeer characteristics. If you can load the rear tyres then you dont need toe-out even in slow corners. In an old fashioned rally car I can understand a desire to parallel steering so that front wheels do not create resistance while opposite steering. One more further thing about lowering the car is the aero. The Pista has a diffusor at the rear and they get progressively more efficient the closer ground you get (until they stall in a race car at close top speeds). Anyeway, I really enjoyed your video and the way you talk about driving and cars. (Yeah, Misha is doing a good job too). I have a 996 myself built for B-roads with Bilstein B16-kit, Powerflex polyurethane bushes, Eibach adjustable AR-bar at rear and OEM at front. I had the Eibach adjustable at front but it made the car too warp stiff for B-roads. Ive tried my car at 4 or 5 different ride heights. Conclusively it is now pretty much at the swweet spot for my driving profile. Im not totally happy with the front dampers though. The cut-off comes at too high piston speed (911 is quite easy to get bounncing at fr). Ok, this is all talk. What really matters is that driving is fun. I hope to come to Ring again one day. Ive only ever done three laps there - 16 years ago, in a Saab and I only got like 130 km/h out of it in the hill after Bergwerk. Given a similar car Im probably 60..90 seconds slower than you. Thanks for good entertainment.
Robert thanks for posting this. I have a 488 GTB, come from a 991.2 GT3...trying out the Ferrari thing. Question is how do you like the Nangkang tires compared to the Michelin K2 spec Sport Cup 2? I was thinking of getting Porsche N1 spec Cup 2 because they are a little wider than K2 Ferrari spec. Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.
I thought there was a more brown tinge to the colour. I would definitely mix the grey with brown to produce a new colour scheme. I didn't realise how small the 488 is.
Hi Robert, really loving your channel. I was curious if these changes would affect warranty and does MT guarantee their work? Also, when u order from these manufacturers can you ask them to make the changes directly from factory
Great video! Thanks you very much! You could post same tables with before and after to see more easy the differences. I hope next is a video with timing differences on the ring. Whats the gain in one lap the car will have with the new setup?
Great insight....in case you were wondering 360/360cs/430/430scud all run positive toe out and run more camber front/rear....I think the front end wasn't setup correctly on your pista. 488gtb has factory -1.5 camber not sure why 488 pista would be running so little front camber from factory....here is spec sheer for 360/360cs/430/430scud (i.imgur.com/PovKdxH.png)
I track pista with slicks as well . My take is to make the front track wider / And it won’t contact with the liner . It’s just the inside of the tire that contact
Great video, loved seeing the specs of the stock car, but wouldn't messing with the alignment cause unwanted behaviour, like a twitchy car during drifts? Now that you have more grip at the front, wouldn't that mean that you'll get a backend that tries to step out much faster?
The idea is to find a balance. The car was so imbalanced before with understeer that it’s not pleasurable to drive. The back end was planted but front terrible.
Fantastic material. Totally surprised that you couldn't utilise the thread on the damper, makes you wonder why it's there in the first place. Did you lose travel?
I got most of the video but I don’t think I caught HOW the toe was adjusted? Also, is there a chance that the 4mm higher front left height is due to Ferrari factoring in the driver lowering the front left height when inside, or is it unintentional?
Interesting! I learned a little bit more about what goes into suspension set up. Do you have any data logging from previous set up? Would be cool to see a comparison old vs new! Secondly are the Nankings OEM option? Lastly I noticed all your vehicles are registered with KL plates?!? What’s the deal with that? I live in Ramstein-Miesenbach, which is KL Kreis (district) seems pretty far from your base of Ops. Keep those vids coming!!!!!
My main offices are in Ramstein and actually have quite a few cars there too:). The Nankang are not an OEM option, it comes on Cup2 with a compound that is a bit slower, its a compound that leans more towards the road. Most all of my data logging is seat of the pants and simply how I feel driving it. im not going for laps times, just want the cars to drive the way I like them :)
Robert, thanks so much for the content, I really enjoy this type of Tech big time! Can't wait for the follow up on how the drive has improved for the track...except for the couple high compression spots on the track. The Pista always looked almost as high up as a Forester, but still looked good...kind of need it if there is no lift?
Hallo Robert, this type of vídeo talk about the modifications on the cars are really nice
Amazing video! Give us more race car build, workshop insight, alignement, before and after compare content! In other words, more specific petrolhead content!
Funny that the “track” version of the car is not set up for track
Porsche not any better, first thing to do is proper alignment for any of the GT models.
This is why engineers are sent to Motortrend and others to set up the suspension correctly so they get good times. I think it should be done from Factory but whatever.
@@eichler721 just think about it,there are maybe 10 owners that took the car on the track(talking about the people that bought the pista) and maybe 8 out of them took it for a one time thing or they are not that fast....so sadly the car isnt for them and Ferrari knows this,and gives you the best experience on the road....sadly many of them are not even running on the roads and just sit but that is a completely different discussion
Geometry is a personal preference . There's hardly any car from factory that will suit people who knows how they like their cars to handle . That's the reason we do the Geometry which suits to us personally. It might not suit others.
@@TheLTcousins a Pista is faster then any other supercar on track except the GT2RS. The Pista beats the 720S do ya it is fast. And alot more then 8 people take it to the track. So you could say 8 out of 10 don't but it would help the handling for road use as well so no reason not to do it.
Great video! A Pista at Manthey, Robert will probably get the "Chris Harris" treatment by Ferrari :-) Warranty invalid, no seven years free servicing, no courtesy car, no freebies, no invitations to events, no Fiorano, a restraining order in Maranello, no test drives, only able to buy a second hand California T without service history from a Ferrari dealer. Oh well, the taxi's is better around the Ring.
B J, LOL
Ferrari is not so bad. Most find this to be pretty cool and several dealers in Europe are okay with Manthey doing setups.
@@AB-80X Ferrari is by far the most annoying company ever on this aspect, even lowering the car on the already given coilovers void the warranty. These cars are just so weird imho, like the engine and chassis etc are made to blast on track, but then the allignment, tune, and all the warranty stuff block it out. Its like Ferrari just wants their cars to sit in a garage for "investors" to make money!
@@yarniewullaert2025
You are wrong on that. Last week I had my 488 on the bench for allignment. Just prior to that, I had it balanced. I also run Pagid RSL1 pads and Surface Transforms brakes which I installed myself. On top of that, my dealer did my brake fluid flush and change to Castrol SRF fluid.
No warranty issues what so ever and have never heard of warranties being void because of lowering. I use one of the largest dealers by the way.
Are the issues you speak of from personal experience?
@@yarniewullaert2025
I will also point out that Ferraris are in fact not that track ready. My dealer discovered that my front bushes are in need of a change due to heat from the brakes. I'm sure Robert will encounter this at some point. I have more than 10000 track km on my 488, so I know its weaknesses. I also replaced the rubber brake lines with HEL braided PTFE lines - again no warranty issues. Ferrari has however agreed to replace my bushes under warranty.
Great content. Love the technical deep dives...these are the best.
Thank you for the kind words and support:-)
These videos are extra special for us on lockdown, gotta finish Robert's then go watch Misha's. Thx for the extra vids
I watched Misha fitst :-P
Wow, great explanation with maximum detail and in correct English. The video is also top class ! Great work Robert
Tom - thank you very much for not adding music when Robert is speaking. I can hear him much more clearly now. The security camera footage is a nice touch. I like how you blurred the houses in the background.
I was looking forward to this video already but the insight is simply even better than I hoped. Where else so you get an owner talking about how their car acts on the track and how the changes they’re going to make are going to change it on track. Simply brilliant. My favourite way of learning (apart from hands on) Thank you Robert. Plus the car looks better!
I learn more about automotive engineering during your videos than in the courses in my university...
Best video from Robert so far! Really in depth and really utilized excellent with all the details! Thanks for this!
Made me start to think about my car's alignment - thx for that. Love the sound of the Pista, you all be safe and healthy.
Really nice to you Robert for explaning all this. As a rc racer (with touring cars), we play a lot with these settings, and funny enough, what we get in 1/10 and 1/8 scale seems to be valid for a real car also. And please keep us updated on how it turns out in track (maybe you already did, if so, i will across that video later on...)
Glad you still have the pista, loving the videos Robert along with misha, keep them coming. 👏🏽
Hey Robert,
thanks for helping us with creating car and schleife-content to get over the lockdown time.
I am missing the ring every day.
Hope to see you guys again in the not so distant future.
Best regards
Love these videos where you go into the technical details. Always do a great job of explaining everything good stuff. Ride height looking much better now!.
Love the technical chat. Not typically a Ferrari fan but aesthetically your Pista looks damn good in this spec and with the drop.
Love the technical info. It’s great to hear such a humble approach to these cars. Hopefully were all back to normal life soon than later. ❤️ from Canada.
Thank you for posting the alignment numbers !
So well explained. I can almost see Ferrari suspension engineers diligently taking notes for the next Pista/Speciale/CS...
That is one hell of a specced Pista!
Looks incredible
Thank you very much:)
Great video again guys! Robert is really going on TH-cam! Love it! Great editing Tom! Cheers guys!
Just drive through Nürburg 30min ago and was so in love seeing the Pista 👌
too bad the current times dont allow me to say 'stop in say hi'!! Next time :)
Robert Mitchell so we can really look forward to these better times that we always have called „regular“ before.
Fascinating to watch AND LEARN! Just what a broke petrol head like me enjoys. You certainly know your stuff. Amazing to get to understand the differences in a Ferrari setup compared to a tack driver prefers.
when in doubt, KW
hehe
@@RobertMitchell öhlins road & track. Do it Robert!
KW is absolutely the best investment I ever made with my GT3RS
@@49fiori How firm is it? I find the suspension on my 991.1 GT3RS to be pretty damn back breaking.
ABOlsen80X I would say it’s the same, any city ride is painful 😀
You have become my new guide for track alignments!
I wouldn't use this guy as your guide for alignment. He doesn't genuinely seem to understand the real effects of toe in and toe out. He's also not really explained the link between camber and grip from front to rear. Toe in, is NOT a track alignment. Toe in is used for high speed straight line stability. It will make turn in lazier, slower and less keen. The whole point of toe out is that balancing it correctly, allows the inside and outside tyres to track the road correctly on turn-in. It has nothing to do with "dragging and making the car stable in a straight line". I actually have no idea why robert keeps going on about "toe out" making the car more stable in a straight line, it does literally the exact opposite of this. Toe out has the front wheels fighting each other and makes steering more twitchy, these are the downsides of the fact that it also allows for fantastic turn-in response on entry into a corner.
Toe-In, increases straight line stability, but at expense of cornering grip and turn in sharpness.
This guy needs to go learn about track alignments property, rather than repeating stuff he thinks he knows.
erm merr grd dat paint doe. Not a Ferrari guy but they hit the design out of the park on that one.
Looking even better. What a spec.
Pretty shocking the way these things are setup from the factory. I guess they're doing everything they can to keep their clientele from putting them in ditches. While I'm sure it's nice to not have to slow down to hop the curb to the Apex driveway, that front ride height has to create lift at speed. Really cool to hear this level of in-depth analysis on the handling of these exotic cars!
The fast steering is actually not bad, that's a very personal thing. But the understeer is pretty annoying.
Absolutely GREAT video content, Robert!
As fresh Pista owner and hard-core trackday aficionado (at the Ring, so I will for sure see you around + Spa & co.), I look forward to the video with the info how the Pista now handles on track (I haven't tracked my Pista yet, took delivery of it just before the coronavirus issue).
I come from 991.1 GT3RS, 997.2 GT3RS, Cayman GT4, etc. and I hope the Pista will not disappoint me too much with the stock setup... Based on what you explain, it will and this is why the result of the MR setting is of high interest for me!
It is still a beautiful spec Pista... Amazing car Robert!
I just saw a video where Wheels Boutique in Miami put an IPE exhaust and Novitec lowering springs on the 488 Pista and even looking at yours I didnt realize just how high that car was until i saw it on lowering springs with a 1 inch gap between the tire and fender. They also stuck HRE wheels and a 355 size tire on the back which is huge compared to the 305 that comes on the back.
Nice video, very appreciated all the technical details!
Ive got something look forward to now seen as though yes years ring trip is cancelled :( I cant wait to watch the video and hear the feedback!
awesome! hope all issues get sort out
Really cool video! Can't wait for the track to open again.
that makes two of us!!
Thanks Robert, you saved me from spending a whole stack of cash on a 488 Pista that handles like a complete sack of shit on track :):):)
Shall stick with my Fiesta ST-3 till Ferrari get their act together!
Phew, so close to wasting my time on a 'monster truck'
But seriously I hope this won't effect your 'history of ownership' regarding a future invitation to the latest & greatest Ferrari.
Robert driving style:
Fast car, slow drive, enjoying the ride...
Slow car, PUUUUUUUSH
7:05 I can't be the only one thinking of K-DST.
Radio X and K-DST were the preferred radio stations of CJ :P
Thanks Robert for the process of education..
0.8 deg of camber in the front! Goodness (or badness) me, that's more upright than a fence hahaha. Very insightful with regards to Ferrari's factory alignment and driving characteristics. Can't wait to see how the Pista (should they have rather called it the Strada?) performs, post alignment!
Tom, your new videos are amazing!!
You are Misha uploading at the very same time. Games are getting strong. I got two tabs open.
haha enjoy the next 40 min!
@@RobertMitchell i surely will 👍
Hi Robert,
One thing to try and can help to understand the setup and what to change is a bump steer analysis, how camber and toe changes with ride height/bump-rebound situations.
Very interesting video. Thanks.
Great video and insight! And happy that the changes worked out well!
You need to slam the car, widebody it, new 24” rims and twin turbo with a supercharger and 200 shot of NOS. Do that and you can be a REAL youtuber. Hope you get her running better.
I think it’s the only next logical TH-cam step!
don't forget the compulsory wraping of the car, preferably in a flashy camouflage combination ;)
And please remove the back bumper :) :D
Thank you guys for the tips. April mods are now planned 🤣🤣
Also, can you please review the carporn fiberr interior trim 4 us Robert? Also, I have a Peugeot 207 1.4 and would like to know how many minutes I can save on my nurburing lap if I install carbon fiberr wrapped gear shifter? Many thanks!
Super interesting detail. Not that I’m gonna be setting up a Pista any time soon.
Interesting video. Hope the channel does well. It deserves it.
Thank you for the kind words !
Will be interested to hear when the Pista does its next track day.
Very informative format.
Thank You.
Cant wait for the post setup lap review!
I have always said you should keep it. So if anything good comes out of the corona situation - here it is 😉
Great video. Looking forward to see your review after a run at the track. 👍
There's only so much you can lower the car with the OEM suspension before you run into the issue of not having enough damper travel, so it's not surprising that Ferrari have limited it to 10-11mm lower than stock.
You may also want to look at adding more caster if Ferrari has made it possible. Not only will it help the stabilize the steering on its own, but for the same amount of static camber (as measured on the alignment rack), it will gain more dynamic camber as the wheel is turned and you go through the turn.
Good video Robert. I like the tecnicol stuff. Informative and well explained👍 And great HD shots of the cupra😂
really good explanation.
thanks for that 👍
On all the modern Ferrari's you need to unload the spring ie: remove the assembly & compress the spring, the threads on the collars do not have the tolerance to be adjusted with a load on them. they can easily become "crossed". There is enough thread on the collars to lower it radically. :)
Yes! Finally,pista content.been waiting for this since last year.
I hope you enjoy it!
I work on the 488 challenge cars and the toe sound about right for those. 2mm out on the front and around 2mm in on the rear. There is much more camber on the front though. The anti roll bars are adjustable by means of two holes which gives 4 settings. Stiff, medium, soft and off. Maybe its worth looking at or trying some Challenge parts?
Good tips. Thank you!!
I’m pretty sure most of the challenge parts would fit the road cars. If you plan on tracking the car, there are a few good simple things you can do to save problems occurring too. Best of luck with it 👍🏻
Hey Robert, couldn‘t you also avoid front axle understeer by installing wider tyres in the front? 245 seems very small for such a high performance car.
Great insight, thanks for sharing
great video and tunes! thanks Robert and Tom :D
Great video , very useful information for track enthusiasts.
Did you consider a 255 or 265 width tire up front to dial out understeer? May also help fill the gap.
Mooi gedaan.
Er zijn echter 3 zaken gewijzigd,hoogte,sporing en camber.
Wat komt nu waarvan?
Wat zou er gebeuren met wat uitspoor met deze hoeveelheid camber?
Komt er dan weer ongewenst onderstuur,of ongewenst heftig insturen?
Wil Ferrari zijn klanten tegen zigzelf beschermen met dit soort veilige afstellingen?
Robert, how much does Manthey Racing charge for a corner balancing and alignment for Pista~? Dose Manthey Racing work on other brands beside Porsche~?
shoot them an email and ask. I honestly don't know the costs lol... however they will work on ALL cars and do a wonderful job
@@RobertMitchell Oh ~ My bad ~~ lol thank you ~!
Great content Robert, really quite unique on TH-cam. One small technical comment - your toe measurement in is in millimeters, which is another way of measuring it other than angle. Normally you would not run 1 deg toe in/out as that's a lot.
Yes mm just a slip of words :-). Glad you’re enjoying the vids !!!
Really well commented and justified for the changes, and also how you clarify that is your taste and your opinion and how you feel it so no one can say anything about it. Is going to be interesting to hear your outcomes once is driven on the track and if at that point is required to change the stiffness of either springs or antiroll bars to remove some more understeer tendency
Wow you have a clean inner wheel Arch on your pista 😯
Digging the video, thanks!
Really surprised at the alignment specs on this car out of the box and the inability to really adjust for more camber. Hmm. Curious to hear your feedback on it though!
I think that not many people are adjusting these cars.. .quite limited unfortunately. I have learned that if you want to have true track cars, these are not the property base to get there
You would be shocked at how many cars, also "sports" cars don't allow for any or very little adjustment with stock suspension. Sadly when you watch review of a car like Pista you dont get a chance to see elements of suspension and underbody, so you don't get to see how many cars are equipped with camber plates etc.
Excited to see how much different you think the track driving is. I love the Pista and if you get a full suspension for the car I would love a comparison to the GT2RS suspension and get your thoughts.
Hi Robert, great video, great info about alignment. Can I ask abotu your f80 m3 apex taxi : what toe in/out u prefere for f80 m3 ? Thank you
What a great video. Very helpful.
One thing. The dry weight of the Pista is not 1300, but rather 1385, so you are "only" 167 over wet w. 30 kg driver. That's not bad at all.
ok! I thought it was advertised under 1300 :)
@@RobertMitchell
Have you considered running other brakes on the Pista? I have worked with Surface Transforms and thei CCST discs, and am running the first set on a 488 and Pista. Works awesome.
Really cool breakdown on car setup and the Pista in particular. There is little to no value proposition in modding a Pista, so what are the characteristics or thinking in adapting the car. What makes the Pista worthwhile keeping/investing in? Outside of the current market situation of course.
@Robert Mitchell I think you may have made a mistake at 13:47 "we now have .9" don't you mean we now have 1.6??
Yea, I was thinking the same thing
I'm really surprised at how little camber and ride height adjustment is available on this car. Is it possible to transplant upper, lower control arms and shocks from the competition versions to gain more adjustability? How do this car's alignment specs compare to the GT2RS MR's? From the videos it looks like the GT2RS MR is running around 3 degrees of camber in front, maybe more.
Thank you Robert for the insight into the way you want your Pista to drive and feel. I do find that odd with the suspension threads not going any lower. As I said in Misha’s comments Ferrari should listen to the 1% of its drivers that want tweaks/changes that would improve the car on track. You mentioned about perhaps completely changing the suspension, but would that affect the Ferrari warranty?
Yes it would for sure cause an issue with warranty and I’m sure they’d even write me a letter telling me I ruined their car..... I think it’s not the platform for modding anyhow
Hi Robert!. Do you know what spring rates and motion ratios (or wheel rate or ride frequency) does the Pista have with stock springs?
Thank you and great video 🙂🙂
That was interesting .....ok I enjoy geek stuff of the mechanical kind .thanks !
Robert, this is a very common misunderstanding. With most suspension types if you drop the car 10 mm the roll centers drop anything between 20 to 30 mm. That means that the arm from the suspension linkage force center (RC) to the CoG actually increases. So with most cars just dropping without changing AR-bars or/and springs you can not diminish roll. You will actually increase it! You will however diminish lateral weight transfer as ultimately (statically, center corner) it is only a function of track width and CoG altitude.
You were probably lucky not to be able to drop the Pista more. If you do that you will need an aftermarket adjustability. If you dont believe, go and ask the Manthey vehicle dynamicists, not the ones who think they know (there always is those).
Yeah, Ive done race engineering and my homework.
This is all true DEPENDING on how the car is set up from the factory in my case the car is set way too high and even beyond their factory desired set up. (A mistake) There is always the point of Diminishing results as you mention but you’re assuming that we would have gone beyond that?! from what we measured another 7mm lower would have been ideal and would not have run the Control arms too low. My car came ready for Dakar Rally. . Of course in any set up you have to be reasonable. Also changing springs is not the answer. If you Lower too much with springs, it’s the same issue as your going to have as the geometry of the control arm change just the same. The only correct way to do it uf you really want to change The ride height dramatically and correctly is by using a shorter spring and relocating the mounting point of the lower control arm or by simply lowering the car with a drop Spindel. If your car is higher than optimal deign demands and you bring it lower to where it should have been then yes you will correct Te cog and yes you will reduce roll. I don’t want to be rude but suggesting a spring fixes the issue your implying we may have has is very wrong as that makes the problem even worse as it dramatically changes the geo of the lower control arm when you go too far. so a little more homework May be needed... or at least better clarification. Also: the car drives now 100 times better and in photos has noticeably less body roll. Go a few videos forward and the results are in I believe this is about the best that the Pista can get on stock components.
Well, first of all I can tell from your other video that you are an analytic driver, sort of ”dream driver” for the engineer.
Second, everything I said stays put and everything you said is valid - most of the time.
You may know that the RC in this kinda cars is lower at the front as at the rear. My preference is to keep the front RC above the ground level. Actually RC at the ground or at the proximity of it means that lateral and vertical loads are decoupled in the contact patch and it gives a nice turn in on uneven surface (given that your roll stiffness split is ok). I always try to get all the numbers and feed them to an excel sheet Ive done to see how the parameters affect (first in relation to ”handbook values” and ultimately to the roll stiffness ratio).
Ive never really seen TUV accepted spindles with lowered pic up points. What it usually means they bespoke for racing purposes (given the regs allow). However, I noticed that the pic up points at the inboard of the Pista are half clever and actually might offer a way to lower the inboard points. But is it worth it? Most likely not as you are happy with the car now.
Also consider what might have happened also is that lowering the car affected the roll stiffnes ratio between fr and r.
About the toe-in/toe-out I agree with you. I dont think any car in the traffic should have toe-out at front as it makes a darty. Further more toe-out at fr usually helps only in the slowest corners - and if the car has an understeer characteristics. If you can load the rear tyres then you dont need toe-out even in slow corners. In an old fashioned rally car I can understand a desire to parallel steering so that front wheels do not create resistance while opposite steering.
One more further thing about lowering the car is the aero. The Pista has a diffusor at the rear and they get progressively more efficient the closer ground you get (until they stall in a race car at close top speeds).
Anyeway, I really enjoyed your video and the way you talk about driving and cars. (Yeah, Misha is doing a good job too). I have a 996 myself built for B-roads with Bilstein B16-kit, Powerflex polyurethane bushes, Eibach adjustable AR-bar at rear and OEM at front. I had the Eibach adjustable at front but it made the car too warp stiff for B-roads. Ive tried my car at 4 or 5 different ride heights. Conclusively it is now pretty much at the swweet spot for my driving profile. Im not totally happy with the front dampers though. The cut-off comes at too high piston speed (911 is quite easy to get bounncing at fr).
Ok, this is all talk. What really matters is that driving is fun. I hope to come to Ring again one day. Ive only ever done three laps there - 16 years ago, in a Saab and I only got like 130 km/h out of it in the hill after Bergwerk. Given a similar car Im probably 60..90 seconds slower than you.
Thanks for good entertainment.
Robert thanks for posting this. I have a 488 GTB, come from a 991.2 GT3...trying out the Ferrari thing. Question is how do you like the Nangkang tires compared to the Michelin K2 spec Sport Cup 2? I was thinking of getting Porsche N1 spec Cup 2 because they are a little wider than K2 Ferrari spec. Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.
I thought there was a more brown tinge to the colour. I would definitely mix the grey with brown to produce a new colour scheme. I didn't realise how small the 488 is.
Love the new format
Hi Robert, really loving your channel. I was curious if these changes would affect warranty and does MT guarantee their work? Also, when u order from these manufacturers can you ask them to make the changes directly from factory
Also great driving song.
@@splyce9712 Of course they affect everything. Robert will be ex-communicated from Ferrari's good books in a letter also signed by the Pope :P
Great video! Thanks you very much! You could post same tables with before and after to see more easy the differences. I hope next is a video with timing differences on the ring. Whats the gain in one lap the car will have with the new setup?
Great insight....in case you were wondering 360/360cs/430/430scud all run positive toe out and run more camber front/rear....I think the front end wasn't setup correctly on your pista. 488gtb has factory -1.5 camber not sure why 488 pista would be running so little front camber from factory....here is spec sheer for 360/360cs/430/430scud (i.imgur.com/PovKdxH.png)
roletnabih is there a sheet like this for the 488GTB & Pista?....thanks
I track pista with slicks as well .
My take is to make the front track wider /
And it won’t contact with the liner . It’s just the inside of the tire that contact
Mine was rubbing on the top of the tire to the inner fender well:-). Not on the inside
You can lower it all the way down! But the threads are very sensitive they have to be 100% clean
Awesome video thanks Robert
Great video, loved seeing the specs of the stock car, but wouldn't messing with the alignment cause unwanted behaviour, like a twitchy car during drifts? Now that you have more grip at the front, wouldn't that mean that you'll get a backend that tries to step out much faster?
The idea is to find a balance. The car was so imbalanced before with understeer that it’s not pleasurable to drive. The back end was planted but front terrible.
Fantastic material. Totally surprised that you couldn't utilise the thread on the damper, makes you wonder why it's there in the first place. Did you lose travel?
Have you thought about approaching Ferrari Challenge team to see if they can propose part swaps that can help extract more adjustment?
I got most of the video but I don’t think I caught HOW the toe was adjusted? Also, is there a chance that the 4mm higher front left height is due to Ferrari factoring in the driver lowering the front left height when inside, or is it unintentional?
Very interesting....most of my cars have a personal alignment or a alignment check up after delivery of the car.
This one should have for sure. I just didn’t get around to it as I was Always going to sell it in the back of my mind
Your channel just popped up in my feed. What a gem this is fucking awesome. Subscribed!
Thank you so much for the kind words! Hopefully I can keep up some solid content for you guys
Thank you so much for the kind words! Hopefully I can keep up some solid content for you guys :-)
I really want to try this setup. How did you change the Toe Angle? Was that also just from putting the washers to the bottom control arm?
Exact the same problem as the 4C had out of the factory! Same problem, same solution. The wheel suspension also looks almost identical
Such a mess
@@RobertMitchell it is. Do like your brakes haha!
It's so beautiful
This was great content. You really understand car set-up! Maybe some more technical vids in future?
Interesting! I learned a little bit more about what goes into suspension set up. Do you have any data logging from previous set up? Would be cool to see a comparison old vs new! Secondly are the Nankings OEM option? Lastly I noticed all your vehicles are registered with KL plates?!? What’s the deal with that? I live in Ramstein-Miesenbach, which is KL Kreis (district) seems pretty far from your base of Ops. Keep those vids coming!!!!!
My main offices are in Ramstein and actually have quite a few cars there too:). The Nankang are not an OEM option, it comes on Cup2 with a compound that is a bit slower, its a compound that leans more towards the road. Most all of my data logging is seat of the pants and simply how I feel driving it. im not going for laps times, just want the cars to drive the way I like them :)
I would love to know the before and after set up numbers. Because you just guess the toe, camber. Please?
Robert, thanks so much for the content, I really enjoy this type of Tech big time!
Can't wait for the follow up on how the drive has improved for the track...except for the couple high compression spots on the track.
The Pista always looked almost as high up as a Forester, but still looked good...kind of need it if there is no lift?