The movies and both TV series. I consider 2 a parody so not canon, the TV series alternate universes of barely inspired by the orginal. There is only one, the orginal, no other. 😊
Elrond accidentally neglecting his friendship with Durin due to a different perception of time for his species was actually a one of the very few great ideas in Rings of Power. Not saying execution was anything special, but great idea.
My bitterest anger at Amazon's attempt at Middle-earth is that we were robbed of really exploring the life and psychology of the Elves. There is so much incredible story there, and I wanted to see that so badly.
and immortality can be a complete curse if you get defeated. you could be immortal but still get old (forcing you to find a way to rejuvenate or end bodiless) you could also be immortal but trapped in some way you can't escape.
I think my favourite part about the Doctor often limiting his involvement is not just to prevent messing with the timeline (because he usually can), but because he's afraid of himself. He KNOWS he's arguably the most powerful and dangerous being to walk this Earth. And rather than some dumb superhero no-kill rule where 'we must be better than them', the Doctor KNOWS full well what it's like when he doesn't hold back. In the Time War, he went all out. The exact deeds are left to audience imagination but the impression we get is that the Doctor became more devastating than anything in the Daleks wildest dreams. He went too far and he knows it. And it must never happen again. He refuses to pick up a gun not because he's afraid of crossing THAT line, but because there's a billion lines all more dangerous than the last that he knows he'll cross if he lets himself cross the first one.
😂 Haha, but I respectfully disagree. The Highlander television show was great. As for the movies, while they weren't consistent I don't think there would have been a tv show without the movie series.
When I originally watched "Highlander II," I thought, "It couldn't get worse than this." Oh, my sweet summer child, little did I know the horror of "Highlander: The Source" that would come later on...
I have an Immortal character in my writing. She was created originally as a type of Humonculus, meant to hold the consciousness of another entity upon their death, but was awakened early and developed her own. She cannot die of old age and, if she is killed in battle or by disease, she is immediately reborn via a silvery egg landing somewhere random in the world. She does retain the memories of her past life each time she is reborn in such a fashion. At first, she enjoyed her immortality, as she became a mighty warrior and knight, but as time went on, as more friends either fell in battle or died of old age (While she remained untouched) she started to develop a form of Survivor's Guilt. She kinda wallowed in this for a few centuries before she discovers a purpose for herself. She can't save everyone, but she can help those she can live long and happy lives.
I have an immortal character in my work as well. He is constantly depressed, drowning his thoughts in alcohol and substances. He's not strong, so he was captured and "studied" for a very long time. I think I'd like to make his personal quest end in a way that he can sleep forever, finally at peace. It's an interesting problem because i don't want him to be a cocky Gary Stu. I want him to be a normal person with faults who has an unusual situation. Your homunculus idea is very interesting because it isn't human in the traditional sense. You can work with it in many ways.
@@RayeBlevins Thanks! When I was making her, the idea was to have someone who was perfectly sculpted, artificially made, but still retain that spark of humanity. Her first arc is rather cliche, figuring out what it's like to be human, and develops her skills along the way. The second arc is her discovering her purpose after so many lifetimes.
@VelociraptorsOfSkyrim She sounds like a lot of fun to write and adjust, run through scenes and see what works, what could be more interesting vs what can be taken as overpowering. I'd say it's almost *almost* similar to Claymore, but with a very different twist.
@@RayeBlevins Very much so! It also allows me to tweak at her personality a bit. She can be very harsh in certain circumstances. Other times, vulnerable.
I'm always a little bit confused with the overpowered character's problem. Just give them bigger challenge! Stakes in adventure fiction (fantasy or "Clancy") are rarely just MC's life, so what's big deal if they can survive BBEG evil plan? Good luck living in the world drastically changed forever. Characters who are OP bc they have trained swordfighting for 600 years might have skipped some changes in the world, like advances in magic, communication or weapon (unless it's massive fantasy stasis with zero changes over time)
I can't remember which move it was. But it was with vampires. Some ancient vampire has been entombed for countless ages, the bad guys are bringing him back. The good guys arrive, but too late. So the vampire comes out of the sarcophagus and gloats, and what do the good guys do? Use the power of gun. The legendary vampire is instantly destroyed. He might be immortal, and able to win every fight against sword-wielding knights, but he has nothing against modern weapons with special anti-vampire ammunition.
I added a group of normal human beings, so all the stakes of combat are on them. The main plot is they are trying to bring the main character back to humanity.
I like how immortality is dealt with by the World of Darkness Vampire the Masquerade tabletop rpg with its lore and worldbuilding. You might be a vampire but there are older, much more powerful vampires who are in charge. Vampire society has laws you have to follow or you'll be punished or killed especially if you reveal what you are. There other supernaturals such as werewolves that are more physically powerful. There are human organizations such as the Second Inquisition that will hunt and destroy vampires who aren't careful in the 21st century. Players usually are the bottom of the vampire food chain and it's all about trying to hold onto your shreds of humanity while surviving.
My favourite from the Highlander TV show was Methos. I loved that he was a 5000 year old and he was not the same . He was different people and incredibly different from who he is now. He was a mass murderer… and now he’s a kind wise fellow. It’s a great way to explore forgiveness, regret, and change . Our prison system is SUPPOSED to be a place a reflection and allow time for change. This doesn’t occur the way we hope due to people needing a lot of time and support to grow and overcome trauma or mental health that led them to extreme acts of crime. But if we are a character who has forever… and the consequences of your horrible actions are not remembered by anyone in the world because no one living has any notion you did them and all the pain and suffering you caused is no longer being felt by anyone… but yourself…. Then…. Can you grow? Is our fundamental identity and personality truly… fundamental? With enough time.. and the world and the social norms constantly changing even decade to decade… can who you are at your core…. Completely change? Can the character you are.. be a new character? Can they break the mold that all mortal characters have in writing? There are rules for character growth and to keep the person acting according to their character. But immortality offers a way for a character to act completely out of character…. With enough time. It’s a very neat not often explored theme Cus we like to keep continuity. However immortal characters give you a chance to break character continuity in flash backs and such.
I love the content of this video. Well said! I've been watching Chinese Xianxia dramas that often include examples of immortals and noticed some tropes: romance, amnesia, multiple lives, and casual *75000 years later* time skips. Also loved the Tennant reference. He portrayed one of the most compelling immortals in "The Waters of Mars" iykyk Great video ❤
Agree about Xianxia and notice that despite how long they live the people on earth rarely change. Especially given that in some shows (Ten Miles of Peach Blossoms) they make it very clear that hours or days on earth could be minutes to the Immortals/gods. 😅
@@kflowers8276 You're actually so right about this! They literally will skip generations in the span of minutes only to show the same costumes and sets as before in the next scene, as if no time actually passed.
One thing you can make in Mortal character afraid of is magical mind control either having his memories taken from him four some kind of compulsion Maybe falls memories to manipulate Behavior
@@imperialpresence1173 I was thinking something like: lock them inside a fire pit… so basically the same as being stuck in the engine room for the titanic.
I think that some of the best writing of immortal characters I have ever read is in David Weber's Safehold series with the character Merlin and in Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber. Both are exceptional examples of the art and how to make immortal characters appealing.
Captain Jack in Torchwood was an excellent example of writing scenes for immortal life exploration. The final series was so brutal and you could see his growth, reasons for his actions and complete heartbreak for the impact on the mortals around him and feel very differently about him from how you thought he was in season 1..😢
Thanks. That was a interesting vid. I never have seen Highlander 2, because when it first came out, I ran into a friend who had just seen the 7pm showing. He told me about what a mess it was. As I liked the first film a lot, I swore Id never see the second one, because it did such a total job of ruining what was great. Its been a lot of years now and Iv happily avoided Highlander 2 in all its forms.
I think Doctor Who does that whole concept of the immortal character with the ability to remove himself from any given situation through his TARDIS very well. He essentially lives through his mortal companions and through them he cares about the little things that would otherwise potentially be completely go unnoticed in an immortal mindset.
Hi Marie! I don't know if you remember, but a while back you did a livestream discussing AI usage for writing, and I derailed your stream a little bit by asking an off-topic question about self-publishing on Amazon; I just wanted to let you know I finally published my first ever novel, _Dragonheim: Aurelia's Apprentice,_ and I wanted to say a massive thank you for helping me with the issues I was having with the formatting and front cover dimensions! Bingeing your videos while I was writing really kept me motivated, it's so nice to know there are like-minded people who love worldbuilding and fantasy writing as much as I do, and your videos have been a great help for many topics I was unfamiliar with. Thank you Marie, please keep up the great work with the videos you make!
Highlander 1 and the series handled all of your pitfalls beautifully. The immortals had stakes, limitations (simple weakness and an organization or two hunting them), growth arcs, and even reasons for them to both interact with and avoid mortals. There were even times when they had very different versions of history, where they had both reasons to keep the truth behind certain events hidden as well as new perspectives on old events. Better yet, it was interesting to see past events that reflected the situation in the specific show. You should have dropped H2 altogether and just used the show and series....
This video was about mistakes :) I discussed other examples and the roles immortals can play in the other video. For some reason, the "negative framing" videos always do better with the algorithm. I wish it wasn't so, but it is.
@@JustInTimeWorlds Then you focused too much on how Lucifer and Dr. Who avoided your pitfalls, and had fun doing it. It was a good video, you just either needed to focus more on how H2 screwed up (if you were going negative) or more on the other movie or series, possibly ina compare/contrast mode.
The movie "The man from Earth" is a great example of a well written immortal character. There they discuss historical events and how such a character would experience them, and the reality they would most likely not be present at the big turning points but rather hear about them afterwards as the news would spread. But they would know some things from personal experience just by random chance.
The main character in one of my stories gains immortality fairly early on. This actually raises the stakes for him, since initially he assumed that if he failed, then he and everyone he cared about would die. But now that he's immortal, failure would mean that everyone else dies and he has to live forever with the knowledge that he failed to save them. He's also far from OP. While he's marginally more powerful than most of the other characters around him, his physical capabilities pale in comparison to the demagogue villain who has the backing of a trickster god.
I like the way a story I read a long while ago did the issue of immortals and their interaction with history. Two immortal reunite after millennia and one helps the other catch up to what he has missed. One was guarding a relic of some sort, something really dangerous and very insidious that had fallen from the sky and an entire legion of soldiers perished to seal it away. This centurion and the other immortal were the only ones to survive and found themselves with the curse of immortality. He would occasionally be approached by the odd group seeking the mythical thing he guarded but he either would turn them away by convincing them or threatening them or if they persisted he would end them. The other immortal went on to partake on civilization avoided what one would call flashpoints, but was still informed of some historical significant happenings, but overall had little interaction with major figures. Very cautious fella but nevertheless was present in the world, got dragged into the odd war and had hell avoiding persecution by Christian fanatics during the middle ages. He comes with a solution to end the threat they sealed and a small team to help do it. Once that is done the worldly immortal takes the hermit one to finally enjoy life and see the wonders made by their descendants. Needless to say the recluse is like a kid in candy land while the other dotes on his old friend as if he was an older brother. This particular story of the two immortals interacting is covered the beginning and the end chapters, and the rest are essentially tales involved a period of time the worldly immortal lived through, not necessarily from his POV or even involvement. It was sort of a recounting of history, though it did involve fantastical events or creatures and these events never made it to history books, only legends and folktales. Some of the chapters were about the first immortal and the occasional visits he received throughout the 25ish centuries he lived through. I really wish I could find this, it was in Spanish, though I think the original was in Italian? I don't remembered the title and the author, but alas that was a long time ago and the library that had a copy of the book is gone, taken by a weather related disaster.
Your channel is aptly named. I'm working on an old story with an immortal character in it, and realized I needed to pay close attention to all those annoying little immortal rules. For a change, my immortal does not have a cynical view of mortals, but I need to determine exactly what she DOES think of them. Anyway, thank you for this video!
The third Highlander movie was actually pretty good, as was the tv series. Recently I really liked how immortality was dealt with in 'the Old Guard' They had the notion that the immortals would eventually still die.They just didn't know when they would lose their immortality, and thus be able to die. So any fight they went in, could be their last.
Lucifer also did something else to address the 'no arc' issue. Many of the best immortal stories (including the original Highlander) deal with the issue by setting up the immortal as jaded, cynical, etc, after centuries/millennia of existence. Then they have the instigating incident which rouses them from their stupor--this suddenly puts them on a character arc that can be measured in mortal timespans once again. This justifies the sudden shift into a storyline that mortal audiences can enjoy and comprehend.
Thank you for showing up in my feed. I'm writing a fantasy story for my teenager, and you have so much great advice. I've subscribed and look forward to watching even more advice so I don't end up like a S. J. Maas or Alex Aster 😅
In the horror anime "Higurashi no naku koro ni" there's a certain character who can be considered immortal, but not in a straightforward way. In the second season, they start as a cynic, but have a unique growth arc, because the repeating cycles do change slowly and subtly, giving them hope to "begin living" again. On the flip side, we have Dio from JoJo's. 😂 He's overpowered af, and always acts cocky. Ofc the heroes defeat him finally.
That would certainly add a lot of conflict, especially if it was not limitless. Like there's only this one bottle of immortality, who do you give it to?
I have two immortals as antagonists in my Call of Cthulhu game. I am trying my darndest to subvert all the expectations of my players, and these tips will certainly help. Thank you!
I'm old enough to have seen the second Highlander film at the cinema - I had no idea there was a more recent cut without the alien origins. Shall have to investigate...
I think they should have intermixed the nephilim from the book of Enoch with the Highlander lore. In fact, I always thought B of Enoch was the writers influence, but I have come to find it wasn't. Great video!😊
One of the most memorable immortals was the protagonist in the movie 'He Never Died'. He fully captures lifes utter bordom and banality that he struggles with. His only effort to stay connected to the world, and humans in general is to drag his arse out of bed and attend a weekly bingo session at the local community centre. Its wonderful how his story unfolds. Its on UK netflix if anyone is interested.
I just started to work on a Inmortal race like 2 or 3 days ago. And this video appears, and i think is so funny because is like the universe is trying to say something to me.
So I think I've mentioned this idea in comments on your other videos, I really like the idea of taking all those things that destroy stakes in your story and giving them to the villain/antagonist rather than the protagonist. I think my least favorite narrative element popularized by anime in the last 20 years is the overpowered protagonist. Sure one punch man did it beautifully by forcing the story and therefore the audience to focus on the emotional stakes. But the protagonist as a world shattering archmage or an immortal or even a literal god is so often boring... but what about the villain? How do you win. how do you stop whatever horrific thing that God wants to do, not a god but capital G God? Can you win, is there even a possibility for victory, can you even delay or inconvenience Sauron now that the Hobbits are dead and the ring is back on his finger, is there a way to even mitigate the fallout from the plans of the foe... and can you even survive the attempt?
@@JustInTimeWorlds The biggest problem with it as a trope(at least as I've seen over the last several years) is that for every character where that strength either doesn't help them with their actual problems (Superman in anything where Lois lane is a more important character than Lex Luther) or in fact actively makes that problem worse(one punch man) I think I've spotted 10 things where it means the protagonist just walks through a power fantasy unopposed.
I am writing a character not that was blessed with immorality, but only at sea. Then was taken away. In this book and has to deal with starting again with a legacy of being immortal for 400 years but now has only one life to live.
Targeting loved ones is good for raising the stakes for the Immortal, but physical danger can still work. I'm talking about imprisonment. Trapping them for a long time and possibly in a state of suffering. X-Men the Days of Future Past has a great moment where Wolverine is tied up in rebar and cast into the sea where he is forced to drown to death over and over for an unknown amount of time until he is rescued. The movie, The Old Guard, does something similar, but with an iron coffin. In it, the immortal woman drowns over and over for centuries until the coffin rusts away and she is freed. In some ways, physical harm can create even higher stakes for an immortal than it can for a mortal.
I also loved how they dealt with the end of their immortality in the Old guard. Showing it through Andy. That their immortality isn't a sure thing. It has an end date, they just don't know when. So every death could be permanent, even when it isn't.
I feel that one of the best handling of an immortal character is the 2007 movie "Man From Earth". It deals with a group of people have to come to terms with finding out that a friend is 14,000 years old. It takes place in a single night of a get together to say goodbye to the friend.
You would love the anime Frieren then, about a character who discovers that neglected life and friends, because her life it's just so long, and didn't realize that everyone else won't be there forever like her
One of my favorite immortals is Nicolas Flamel, the 900-year old alchemist in Harry Potter. His potions can keep him alive and slow down aging, BUT the potions can't stop his aging completely. The result is that by the time he's 900 years old he's incredibly ancient and frail (think a regular human that is 100 years old). His dilemma is that his quality of life isn't so great, but he's not sure he's ready to die yet. All he would have to do to die would be to stop taking his potions, so every day he has to make a conscious decision to take the potions and keep living.
When it comes to power and balance I would just lean into that making the head of the Freemasons give him all sorts of skills maybe it's fear rival Immortals
I can't watch the video now so it'll be embarrassing if you mention this in it but The anime Frieren: Beyond Journey's End is about an elf that is exploring the world after a human friend died, and actually paying attention to it and the shorter lived people for the first time after ages of just doing her own thing, it's super well done, she's always on a different time scale from everyone
I enjoyed Frieren very much :) I don't reference it in this video, but I spoke about it in my other video where I spoke about all the benefits that come with immortal characters :)
It’s funny how well Highlander did an immortal. Interview was good too but they really got it across he was lived long whilst the Eternals created immortals that didn’t seem to have lived long because they were so boring with their life. It still amazes me how Highlander 2 even got made with such a throwing out of good universe and story 😂
I wrote an immortal character, and he regrets being immortal. Cyborg robotic body, only part original human is the brain sustained by the Cyborg body. He has abilities beyond human like mind download and holographic appearance manipulation. His stakes involve an immortal antagonist, Nyarlahotep. The struggle is mental and emotional
@@libertyprime1614 he sees himself as a brain in a vat, no longer enjoying his personhood. His cyborg body replaced the human body he had, so he knows he will never have the milestone events human people have, and he misses that.
In my book series people only age because of trauma, otherwise they stay frozen at the age of 25. Of course, human mind has its limits, so in spite of the many things you may master, there is only so much you can retain once you completely drop it for, let's say, 30 years. And the way magic works, every generation is slightly stronger, so staying the best at something requires so much focus that maybe immortality is a curse, as your self assigned life purposed can be ruined by a youngster with little to nothing you can do. They can still be killed, which happens frequently because of monsters. That is extremely traumatic. Like, imagine knowing that you may live for millenia and someone you cared about is *gone*. Forever. It's much much worse for them, even more so given that they know that person would have lived forever otherwise. They can be killed, but not from starving. So they are much less likely to seek changed, out of fear of being perceived as petty. Why end slavery, if I may eventually buy my freedom? Why end inequality if I may eventually buy what I need? Why end racism if I may receive the same things just being patient? So their society progresses at a painfully slow rate. Which makes it perfect for a perfect world for a protagonist raised among mortals to be forced to face.
There have been several books I've read which have done the immortal character correctly Highlander had some flaws with the whole concept of there can be only one, they created the end of their own movie and made an extremely difficult to continue it past the first one even though they tried and it ended horribly. What's the founding rationale for the whole immortals in Highlander made no sense at all.
There is so much unexplored territory with immortals! What if one is immortal but not invincible and could be imprisoned and even tortured with no escape. Arguably a fate worse than death! Or what if someone is mortal but reincarnates with all their memories and skills, perhaps by some cosmic glitch.
@@MagnusItland in "the old guard" *spoilers* one of the immortal characters is trapped in a metal cage and throw into the ocean. She drowns, dies, comes back to life and repeats the process for hundreds of years. Truly terrifying
@@kflowers8276 As far as I recall (not having watched all anime but a fairly broad sample) reincarnation always happens in another world, typically a fantasy / game-like world. Is there no story potential in a person coming back to the ordinary world with the memories of an earlier life, or better yet several earlier lives? How would such a person react to the current world, how would they react to being born in a foreign country, maybe with a different skin color or gender? So much potential unrealized.
@@MagnusItland Good point. I didn't realize you meant "real world" reincarnation. Definitely there's potential for that. Mostly, I see it in Korean dramas. Specifically regarding reincarnation I'm thinking of "See You in My 19th Life."
For point one I first heard "lowering the sex" and while not the point I still thought there was logic in it. Many shows, books etc have immortals act like teenager sex rabbits
I think Dr Who’s weakness is that he seems quite lonely all the time. He is quite codependent. He has immortality and is completely 3 steps ahead of everyone but he or she ends up with a companion almost constantly. I think it’s a fair balance to the character because even if the Dr can’t be harmed his companion can and he is tied to the companion.
You know what really grinds my gears?? When immortals don't age or mature consistently. In Wizards: Tales of Arcadia, Douxie and Merlin are both >900 year old immortals who have been alive since Arthurian times, yet Merlin has the body of an old man, while Douxie is stuck as a young adult. I don't mind, because there's time-travel magic which I assume trapped their bodies in stasis, and that's when they actually became immortal. What I DO mind is that 900 years later, Douxie thinks and acts like a modern-day rebellious 19 year old, despite being older than the United States. Which would be fine, if he didn't grow so much as a character during the series, which takes place over the course of like 3-4 days. It makes me wonder how in 900 years of fighting monsters he didn't mature as much as he did in that 3-4 days. I have the same gripe with vampires that look like teenagers also having the maturity level of teenagers, despite their wealth of experiences.
It’s astonishing how many people whinge and moan about immortal characters not having a character arc. How much more fine tuning do they think someone’s personality would experience after centuries and millennia of life experience? How much more learning and growing would make any sense?
The immortal character might be immortal, but they are the only one. Nobody around them is. The big thing about an "immortal" character, is to give them proper weaknesses and the tragic of outliving anyone you know while also having to change place and name to keep it hidden. Like having them not age and heal super fast, but let them still be able to die from combat and injury. Have people recognize that the person looks exactly the same as 10 years ago and as their "father". That was sort of the backdrop in Highlander. He lost his wife to age. He has to constantly (relative to his existence) move and replace his identity. If the immortal can be "killed" but comes back to life shortly after. Sure, they can't die for good, but they still remember every death. They still feel pain. And who says the immortal has to be old. They could be new to the situation. An immortal might be undying, but that doesn't mean they are superior in a fight. A mortal, but vastly overpowering antagonist might even play with the fact that they can beat up the immortal again and again. If I use immortals, relative immortals or nearly immortals, I tend to have them either as secondary characters or as antagonists. For my biggest setting I just made most of the main characters very long lived. That way I have the time to let them experience lots of things and put them into different time periods, but they still will age and die eventually. They can still be killed. They still have all the things any other mortal has. They might be more powerful than a regular human, but not all conflicts can be solved by sheer force. The immortals are usually halfway to being gods who don't meddle in the day-to-day troubles of mortals. Some of them are overpowered and see it as something beneath them, others are simply unable to do it.
I hate when writers can't write immortal or powerful characters so they lean on a lazy technique. They "nerf" the character. Meaning they weaken the character. Instead they could have just increased the dangers. In Highlander, they made them immortals but established rules ahead of time. They are immortal unless someone beheads them. Plus, they could still be injured. Like a powerful vampire still has the classic exploitable weakness. Stake to the heart, sunlight, beheading, garlic, and holy relics. Look at Superman the Animated Series. Yes, he's Superman but...in this show, more than just Kryptonite can hurt him. In the cartoon, this Superman could be affected by high voltage electricity, magic, psychic attacks, time manipulation, other super powerful characters, unusual alien technology, weird cosmic forces, extreme gravity, and being deprived of his energy source. Not necessarily weaknesses but conditions that can stagger the powerful character.
When it comes to grow I believe we should probably see immortality how, flies probably see humans. They live for a few days max. But doesn't mean we aren't stoll growing. To a fly, grand child or grate grandchild we are different to what there predecessor knew.
Technically, the "immortals" in Highlander are not immortal, just long lived and difficult to kill. They can die in battle to normies if they get beheaded. In fact, in the film, all of them end upndead (except one)
You know. I actually have a mc who is technically immortal. I say technically because she is a wrath. A vengeful undead who can't rest until they get vengeance. Although in the world, there are things that can also eat your soul which would make her death permanent, and if someone is at peace with death, they fade entirely. Long story short. In the world I made, even being a super zombie who wakes up from death after 24 hours doesn't mean you have nothing to fear, and the ability isn't exclusive to her.
you're only immortal until something/someone kills you... how long do you need to be live before you're immortal?500?...5,000?..superman isn't even 100..would a werewolf be an immortal?
I dont know any real fan that even considers Highlander 2 part of canon. It was kind of a novel idea in the TV show that the watchers had a better understanding of the immortals journey than they themselves understood or frankly remembered. Wait a second sure they are in theory immortal but there will be only one so to say there wasn't an imperative doesn't strike true. With each kill they acquire their foes power whatever that was. SO hiding away didn't advantage any of them. Anyone who has faced death or the almost certainty of it tend to be pessimistic especially in the case of war. 150,000 people die every single day but I haven't known anyone bemoaning that fact. If they have lived say 10,000 years that could be 588 LTR that they have lived thru how many realistically could you see die before you with drew from society wasn't that the case with Adam?
There's a renegade cut of Highlander 2. Google Highlander II renegade version and you should find it. They cut out all the crap with the planet Zeist. It was... well it was better. Still not a perfect sequel. They should have left it at one, but it was better.
The idea that time is slower for immortals in LotR is stupid. Even if you are lazy, if you have all the time in the world, you have to do some thing. He doesn't have TV Internet, PS there is nothing to do there. You can forget a good friend for year even 2 but 20y. No! The only reason if you don't visit is you don't want to see or talk with that person. That is it. In the move it wasn't like that. If immortals is OP is not so much of a problem. You can make it stupid or with other funny thing about it to make it funny. Or just make stupid villains.
What drives me nuts about immortals - especially if they're "ascended" and wise in some fashion - is when they're written like emotionally unstable children who need mortals to teach them about good and evil and responsibility. Q from the "Star Trek" series would be an example, though he's designed to be an immature jerk, so he's deliberately problematic. But I've seen plenty of ostensibly angelic characters who petty jerks too, and that smacks more of a writer who has no idea how to write a character who is better than a teenage bully.
My story has several Pseudo-immortal characters, but the main protagonist is one of the few genuine immortals, I wanted to find a way to balance his ability by making it so he's 1. weak to a any form of "Life" magic (his immortality comes from necrotic magic inside of him, as a side effect of his resurrection), which causes him to almost convulse on the ground if he gets hit by it, and 2. the fact that his general view of his own immortality causes issues with people who care about him, where they would see him get hurt brutally over and over again and despise it happening, meanwhile he really wouldn't care less due to him viewing it as "better it be me than someone else".
Okay the pictures you put for this video are kind of dumb sorry You show Satan and then you show Superman as far as I know Superman has never been depicted as being immortal and the other is Satan so what else can you say about that ??
I've never been a fan of immortality in media/lore, because it just doesn't work (and it never has, in my opinion), seeing as we can only see it through a mortal scope. Giving an immortal character "something to live for" is too mortal an idea. Cynicism itself melts away when entropy takes center stage, making it a wonky plot point as well. Making sense of immortlity is a pitfall all on its own. We feel how we feel and do what we do because everything is finite. An infinte character would ultimately be incomprehensible, and should be written as such, if at all. Perhaps I'm reading too deep into it, but Lucifer grows "as a person" because something within him has to die. Elrond "remembers" the fall of man because it takes mortality to understand the concept of time. An immortal character is no character at all.
I don't understand this perspective, to be perfectly honest. Why would life lose its zest? I will be blunt; I think many people convince thenselves immortality must secretly be awful... because they are mortal. Immortality is a thing they'll never have, so to cope, they must convince themselves it's undesirable. I have been through... much, and through it all I realized something extraordinary. I do not want to die. Simply gazing at the blue sky is a miracle. I don't want to die, and I never will. People are too fixated on things that just don't matter; when the miracle of life is all around them. I cannot ever imagine losing the will to live. I could spend ten thousand years and still uncover only a fraction of the Earth's wonders.
In my book, elves are immortal. They almost cannot be killed, and they are eternally young. They start life as human, but through magic they "perfect themselves". At first, this is exciting and fun. And then it turns into millennia of hyper-intense boredom. The magic that makes them immortal requires a high degree of narcissism, but there's only so many centuries of self-worship before even that gets boring. So, no real character arcs are even possible. Mastering a complex skill? Yeah, did that centuries ago. Every possible form of hedonism (food, sex, self-indulgent art)? Done. More than once. Get rich? Who cares? They are eternally stuck in "perfection". The point of them in the story is that they can't have a character arc. They can't really grow as people since their very immortality depends on the unwavering belief in their own perfection. It was fun to write, and I used it to contrast them with characters who can and do grow and change.
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Did you see the original Highlander 2? Or the sanitized one?
@@JustInTimeWorlds Saw both. Sanatized was better
The movies and both TV series.
I consider 2 a parody so not canon, the TV series alternate universes of barely inspired by the orginal.
There is only one, the orginal, no other. 😊
I know I saw the VHS, I think I also saw it in theaters, but it's been a long time and I don't really remember.
@@carolinelabbott2451 Highlander and Raven? Or did you watch the spectacularly bad cartoon?
@@TheMichaellathrop There was a cartoon!?! 😱
I only saw the Raven and Highlander live action TV series.
Elrond accidentally neglecting his friendship with Durin due to a different perception of time for his species was actually a one of the very few great ideas in Rings of Power. Not saying execution was anything special, but great idea.
My bitterest anger at Amazon's attempt at Middle-earth is that we were robbed of really exploring the life and psychology of the Elves. There is so much incredible story there, and I wanted to see that so badly.
The could have dumped the grimdark hobbit storyline and given us more elves.
Someone made an important point in an earlier comment: immortal and invicible are not the same thing.
and immortality can be a complete curse if you get defeated.
you could be immortal but still get old (forcing you to find a way to rejuvenate or end bodiless)
you could also be immortal but trapped in some way you can't escape.
I think my favourite part about the Doctor often limiting his involvement is not just to prevent messing with the timeline (because he usually can), but because he's afraid of himself. He KNOWS he's arguably the most powerful and dangerous being to walk this Earth.
And rather than some dumb superhero no-kill rule where 'we must be better than them', the Doctor KNOWS full well what it's like when he doesn't hold back. In the Time War, he went all out. The exact deeds are left to audience imagination but the impression we get is that the Doctor became more devastating than anything in the Daleks wildest dreams. He went too far and he knows it. And it must never happen again.
He refuses to pick up a gun not because he's afraid of crossing THAT line, but because there's a billion lines all more dangerous than the last that he knows he'll cross if he lets himself cross the first one.
"There should have only been one."
😂
Lol fr
😂 Haha, but I respectfully disagree. The Highlander television show was great. As for the movies, while they weren't consistent I don't think there would have been a tv show without the movie series.
@@kflowers8276 Well I love the TV series, but as far as the films, I wish there were only one.
When I originally watched "Highlander II," I thought, "It couldn't get worse than this." Oh, my sweet summer child, little did I know the horror of "Highlander: The Source" that would come later on...
I have an Immortal character in my writing. She was created originally as a type of Humonculus, meant to hold the consciousness of another entity upon their death, but was awakened early and developed her own.
She cannot die of old age and, if she is killed in battle or by disease, she is immediately reborn via a silvery egg landing somewhere random in the world. She does retain the memories of her past life each time she is reborn in such a fashion.
At first, she enjoyed her immortality, as she became a mighty warrior and knight, but as time went on, as more friends either fell in battle or died of old age (While she remained untouched) she started to develop a form of Survivor's Guilt.
She kinda wallowed in this for a few centuries before she discovers a purpose for herself. She can't save everyone, but she can help those she can live long and happy lives.
I have an immortal character in my work as well. He is constantly depressed, drowning his thoughts in alcohol and substances. He's not strong, so he was captured and "studied" for a very long time.
I think I'd like to make his personal quest end in a way that he can sleep forever, finally at peace. It's an interesting problem because i don't want him to be a cocky Gary Stu. I want him to be a normal person with faults who has an unusual situation.
Your homunculus idea is very interesting because it isn't human in the traditional sense. You can work with it in many ways.
@@RayeBlevins Thanks!
When I was making her, the idea was to have someone who was perfectly sculpted, artificially made, but still retain that spark of humanity.
Her first arc is rather cliche, figuring out what it's like to be human, and develops her skills along the way.
The second arc is her discovering her purpose after so many lifetimes.
@VelociraptorsOfSkyrim She sounds like a lot of fun to write and adjust, run through scenes and see what works, what could be more interesting vs what can be taken as overpowering. I'd say it's almost *almost* similar to Claymore, but with a very different twist.
@@RayeBlevins Very much so!
It also allows me to tweak at her personality a bit. She can be very harsh in certain circumstances. Other times, vulnerable.
I'm always a little bit confused with the overpowered character's problem. Just give them bigger challenge!
Stakes in adventure fiction (fantasy or "Clancy") are rarely just MC's life, so what's big deal if they can survive BBEG evil plan? Good luck living in the world drastically changed forever.
Characters who are OP bc they have trained swordfighting for 600 years might have skipped some changes in the world, like advances in magic, communication or weapon (unless it's massive fantasy stasis with zero changes over time)
I can't remember which move it was. But it was with vampires.
Some ancient vampire has been entombed for countless ages, the bad guys are bringing him back. The good guys arrive, but too late.
So the vampire comes out of the sarcophagus and gloats, and what do the good guys do?
Use the power of gun.
The legendary vampire is instantly destroyed.
He might be immortal, and able to win every fight against sword-wielding knights, but he has nothing against modern weapons with special anti-vampire ammunition.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season 2 had such a villain that got hit/destroyed by a rocket launcher. 😎
I added a group of normal human beings, so all the stakes of combat are on them. The main plot is they are trying to bring the main character back to humanity.
Another beautiful episode. The sad thing is that i am getting older and it feels like if i blink someone grows up way too fast
I like how immortality is dealt with by the World of Darkness Vampire the Masquerade tabletop rpg with its lore and worldbuilding. You might be a vampire but there are older, much more powerful vampires who are in charge. Vampire society has laws you have to follow or you'll be punished or killed especially if you reveal what you are. There other supernaturals such as werewolves that are more physically powerful. There are human organizations such as the Second Inquisition that will hunt and destroy vampires who aren't careful in the 21st century. Players usually are the bottom of the vampire food chain and it's all about trying to hold onto your shreds of humanity while surviving.
I really like WOD. Not crazy about the change to generations where you buy up your gen with XP, but the lore remains amazing :D
My favourite from the Highlander TV show was Methos. I loved that he was a 5000 year old and he was not the same . He was different people and incredibly different from who he is now.
He was a mass murderer… and now he’s a kind wise fellow. It’s a great way to explore forgiveness, regret, and change .
Our prison system is SUPPOSED to be a place a reflection and allow time for change. This doesn’t occur the way we hope due to people needing a lot of time and support to grow and overcome trauma or mental health that led them to extreme acts of crime. But if we are a character who has forever… and the consequences of your horrible actions are not remembered by anyone in the world because no one living has any notion you did them and all the pain and suffering you caused is no longer being felt by anyone… but yourself…. Then…. Can you grow?
Is our fundamental identity and personality truly… fundamental? With enough time.. and the world and the social norms constantly changing even decade to decade… can who you are at your core…. Completely change? Can the character you are.. be a new character? Can they break the mold that all mortal characters have in writing?
There are rules for character growth and to keep the person acting according to their character.
But immortality offers a way for a character to act completely out of character…. With enough time.
It’s a very neat not often explored theme Cus we like to keep continuity. However immortal characters give you a chance to break character continuity in flash backs and such.
I love the content of this video. Well said! I've been watching Chinese Xianxia dramas that often include examples of immortals and noticed some tropes: romance, amnesia, multiple lives, and casual *75000 years later* time skips.
Also loved the Tennant reference. He portrayed one of the most compelling immortals in "The Waters of Mars" iykyk
Great video ❤
Tennant is fantastic all round
Agree about Xianxia and notice that despite how long they live the people on earth rarely change. Especially given that in some shows (Ten Miles of Peach Blossoms) they make it very clear that hours or days on earth could be minutes to the Immortals/gods. 😅
@@kflowers8276 You're actually so right about this! They literally will skip generations in the span of minutes only to show the same costumes and sets as before in the next scene, as if no time actually passed.
@@RabidBunny420 😄😄😄
One thing you can make in Mortal character afraid of is magical mind control either having his memories taken from him four some kind of compulsion Maybe falls memories to manipulate Behavior
Also torture… like if an inmortal can’t die, but they can still feel pain, torture is the worse that can happen to them.
@@Danilez666 like being stuck in the engine room of the titanic?
@@imperialpresence1173 I was thinking something like: lock them inside a fire pit… so basically the same as being stuck in the engine room for the titanic.
I think that some of the best writing of immortal characters I have ever read is in David Weber's Safehold series with the character Merlin and in Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber. Both are exceptional examples of the art and how to make immortal characters appealing.
Chronicles of Amber is SOOO good.
Captain Jack in Torchwood was an excellent example of writing scenes for immortal life exploration. The final series was so brutal and you could see his growth, reasons for his actions and complete heartbreak for the impact on the mortals around him and feel very differently about him from how you thought he was in season 1..😢
Thanks. That was a interesting vid.
I never have seen Highlander 2, because when it first came out, I ran into a friend who had just seen the 7pm showing. He told me about what a mess it was. As I liked the first film a lot, I swore Id never see the second one, because it did such a total job of ruining what was great. Its been a lot of years now and Iv happily avoided Highlander 2 in all its forms.
That is a good friend.
The Man From Earth is an awesome indie talkie film about an immortal character.........
@@phillyvoodoo still one of the best movies I've watched in my life
@@phillyvoodoo I concur. One of the best B grade films ever made.
I think Doctor Who does that whole concept of the immortal character with the ability to remove himself from any given situation through his TARDIS very well. He essentially lives through his mortal companions and through them he cares about the little things that would otherwise potentially be completely go unnoticed in an immortal mindset.
Hi Marie!
I don't know if you remember, but a while back you did a livestream discussing AI usage for writing, and I derailed your stream a little bit by asking an off-topic question about self-publishing on Amazon; I just wanted to let you know I finally published my first ever novel, _Dragonheim: Aurelia's Apprentice,_ and I wanted to say a massive thank you for helping me with the issues I was having with the formatting and front cover dimensions!
Bingeing your videos while I was writing really kept me motivated, it's so nice to know there are like-minded people who love worldbuilding and fantasy writing as much as I do, and your videos have been a great help for many topics I was unfamiliar with. Thank you Marie, please keep up the great work with the videos you make!
I do remember and congratulations! That's awesome!!
@@JustInTimeWorlds Thank you 😄
Have you watched Frieren at the Funeral, by any chance? The main character is immortal and is written very well
I have! I spoke about that show in the previous video :)
That story does great at exploring the difference in how an immortal character experiences time compared to a mortal.
Kenny from South Park is the best immortal character. Change my mind.
No, no, you've got a point :D
You cant
@@VespoLiveGaming change your mind? I will not, sir!
This was well-stated and thoughtful. Thank you.
Highlander 1 and the series handled all of your pitfalls beautifully. The immortals had stakes, limitations (simple weakness and an organization or two hunting them), growth arcs, and even reasons for them to both interact with and avoid mortals. There were even times when they had very different versions of history, where they had both reasons to keep the truth behind certain events hidden as well as new perspectives on old events.
Better yet, it was interesting to see past events that reflected the situation in the specific show.
You should have dropped H2 altogether and just used the show and series....
This video was about mistakes :) I discussed other examples and the roles immortals can play in the other video. For some reason, the "negative framing" videos always do better with the algorithm. I wish it wasn't so, but it is.
@@JustInTimeWorlds Then you focused too much on how Lucifer and Dr. Who avoided your pitfalls, and had fun doing it.
It was a good video, you just either needed to focus more on how H2 screwed up (if you were going negative) or more on the other movie or series, possibly ina compare/contrast mode.
Good concept and great video, don't agree with all your points but agree with most
As long as it gives you food for thought, that's good enough for me :)
The movie "The man from Earth" is a great example of a well written immortal character. There they discuss historical events and how such a character would experience them, and the reality they would most likely not be present at the big turning points but rather hear about them afterwards as the news would spread. But they would know some things from personal experience just by random chance.
The main character in one of my stories gains immortality fairly early on. This actually raises the stakes for him, since initially he assumed that if he failed, then he and everyone he cared about would die. But now that he's immortal, failure would mean that everyone else dies and he has to live forever with the knowledge that he failed to save them.
He's also far from OP. While he's marginally more powerful than most of the other characters around him, his physical capabilities pale in comparison to the demagogue villain who has the backing of a trickster god.
Awesome video! I think that one of my favorite immortal characters is Alcor from TAU, because a lot of these problems are dealt with. :)
I like the way a story I read a long while ago did the issue of immortals and their interaction with history.
Two immortal reunite after millennia and one helps the other catch up to what he has missed. One was guarding a relic of some sort, something really dangerous and very insidious that had fallen from the sky and an entire legion of soldiers perished to seal it away. This centurion and the other immortal were the only ones to survive and found themselves with the curse of immortality. He would occasionally be approached by the odd group seeking the mythical thing he guarded but he either would turn them away by convincing them or threatening them or if they persisted he would end them.
The other immortal went on to partake on civilization avoided what one would call flashpoints, but was still informed of some historical significant happenings, but overall had little interaction with major figures. Very cautious fella but nevertheless was present in the world, got dragged into the odd war and had hell avoiding persecution by Christian fanatics during the middle ages. He comes with a solution to end the threat they sealed and a small team to help do it. Once that is done the worldly immortal takes the hermit one to finally enjoy life and see the wonders made by their descendants. Needless to say the recluse is like a kid in candy land while the other dotes on his old friend as if he was an older brother.
This particular story of the two immortals interacting is covered the beginning and the end chapters, and the rest are essentially tales involved a period of time the worldly immortal lived through, not necessarily from his POV or even involvement. It was sort of a recounting of history, though it did involve fantastical events or creatures and these events never made it to history books, only legends and folktales. Some of the chapters were about the first immortal and the occasional visits he received throughout the 25ish centuries he lived through.
I really wish I could find this, it was in Spanish, though I think the original was in Italian? I don't remembered the title and the author, but alas that was a long time ago and the library that had a copy of the book is gone, taken by a weather related disaster.
Your channel is aptly named. I'm working on an old story with an immortal character in it, and realized I needed to pay close attention to all those annoying little immortal rules. For a change, my immortal does not have a cynical view of mortals, but I need to determine exactly what she DOES think of them.
Anyway, thank you for this video!
Marie you are simply getting better and better. Thank you for all you are doing.
Thank you :)
I saw H2 in theaters. It was super cheezy
Good points, appreciate the video
The third Highlander movie was actually pretty good, as was the tv series.
Recently I really liked how immortality was dealt with in 'the Old Guard' They had the notion that the immortals would eventually still die.They just didn't know when they would lose their immortality, and thus be able to die. So any fight they went in, could be their last.
Lucifer also did something else to address the 'no arc' issue. Many of the best immortal stories (including the original Highlander) deal with the issue by setting up the immortal as jaded, cynical, etc, after centuries/millennia of existence. Then they have the instigating incident which rouses them from their stupor--this suddenly puts them on a character arc that can be measured in mortal timespans once again. This justifies the sudden shift into a storyline that mortal audiences can enjoy and comprehend.
That’s a great point.
The very best movie about an immortal being has to be "The Man From Earth", soo good!
I’m drafting a novel about Greek gods, so, this came to me at the right time! Thank you so much!
You’re very welcome ☺️
Thank you for showing up in my feed. I'm writing a fantasy story for my teenager, and you have so much great advice. I've subscribed and look forward to watching even more advice so I don't end up like a S. J. Maas or Alex Aster 😅
In the horror anime "Higurashi no naku koro ni" there's a certain character who can be considered immortal, but not in a straightforward way.
In the second season, they start as a cynic, but have a unique growth arc, because the repeating cycles do change slowly and subtly, giving them hope to "begin living" again.
On the flip side, we have Dio from JoJo's. 😂
He's overpowered af, and always acts cocky. Ofc the heroes defeat him finally.
What do you think of immortality being a resource play The Underground Fountain of Youth that he can share with his friends
That would certainly add a lot of conflict, especially if it was not limitless. Like there's only this one bottle of immortality, who do you give it to?
I have two immortals as antagonists in my Call of Cthulhu game. I am trying my darndest to subvert all the expectations of my players, and these tips will certainly help. Thank you!
You're very welcome :)
I'm old enough to have seen the second Highlander film at the cinema - I had no idea there was a more recent cut without the alien origins. Shall have to investigate...
It's called the Renegade Cut and it's actually reasonably watchable.
I think they should have intermixed the nephilim from the book of Enoch with the Highlander lore. In fact, I always thought B of Enoch was the writers influence, but I have come to find it wasn't.
Great video!😊
Thanks!
One of the most memorable immortals was the protagonist in the movie 'He Never Died'. He fully captures lifes utter bordom and banality that he struggles with. His only effort to stay connected to the world, and humans in general is to drag his arse out of bed and attend a weekly bingo session at the local community centre. Its wonderful how his story unfolds. Its on UK netflix if anyone is interested.
I just started to work on a Inmortal race like 2 or 3 days ago. And this video appears, and i think is so funny because is like the universe is trying to say something to me.
One might even say... Just In Time :D
So I think I've mentioned this idea in comments on your other videos, I really like the idea of taking all those things that destroy stakes in your story and giving them to the villain/antagonist rather than the protagonist. I think my least favorite narrative element popularized by anime in the last 20 years is the overpowered protagonist. Sure one punch man did it beautifully by forcing the story and therefore the audience to focus on the emotional stakes. But the protagonist as a world shattering archmage or an immortal or even a literal god is so often boring... but what about the villain? How do you win. how do you stop whatever horrific thing that God wants to do, not a god but capital G God? Can you win, is there even a possibility for victory, can you even delay or inconvenience Sauron now that the Hobbits are dead and the ring is back on his finger, is there a way to even mitigate the fallout from the plans of the foe... and can you even survive the attempt?
Yeah. An OP protagonist can work but it’s very easy to get it wrong.
@@JustInTimeWorlds The biggest problem with it as a trope(at least as I've seen over the last several years) is that for every character where that strength either doesn't help them with their actual problems (Superman in anything where Lois lane is a more important character than Lex Luther) or in fact actively makes that problem worse(one punch man) I think I've spotted 10 things where it means the protagonist just walks through a power fantasy unopposed.
I am writing a character not that was blessed with immorality, but only at sea. Then was taken away. In this book and has to deal with starting again with a legacy of being immortal for 400 years but now has only one life to live.
One that I think got these right is the good omen
Targeting loved ones is good for raising the stakes for the Immortal, but physical danger can still work. I'm talking about imprisonment. Trapping them for a long time and possibly in a state of suffering.
X-Men the Days of Future Past has a great moment where Wolverine is tied up in rebar and cast into the sea where he is forced to drown to death over and over for an unknown amount of time until he is rescued. The movie, The Old Guard, does something similar, but with an iron coffin. In it, the immortal woman drowns over and over for centuries until the coffin rusts away and she is freed.
In some ways, physical harm can create even higher stakes for an immortal than it can for a mortal.
I also loved how they dealt with the end of their immortality in the Old guard. Showing it through Andy. That their immortality isn't a sure thing. It has an end date, they just don't know when. So every death could be permanent, even when it isn't.
I feel that one of the best handling of an immortal character is the 2007 movie "Man From Earth". It deals with a group of people have to come to terms with finding out that a friend is 14,000 years old. It takes place in a single night of a get together to say goodbye to the friend.
You would love the anime Frieren then, about a character who discovers that neglected life and friends, because her life it's just so long, and didn't realize that everyone else won't be there forever like her
I’ve watched it :) I mentioned it in the previous videos on immortals as a show that does a great job dealing with the grief of immortals.
One of my favorite immortals is Nicolas Flamel, the 900-year old alchemist in Harry Potter. His potions can keep him alive and slow down aging, BUT the potions can't stop his aging completely. The result is that by the time he's 900 years old he's incredibly ancient and frail (think a regular human that is 100 years old). His dilemma is that his quality of life isn't so great, but he's not sure he's ready to die yet. All he would have to do to die would be to stop taking his potions, so every day he has to make a conscious decision to take the potions and keep living.
When it comes to power and balance I would just lean into that making the head of the Freemasons give him all sorts of skills maybe it's fear rival Immortals
I can't watch the video now so it'll be embarrassing if you mention this in it but
The anime Frieren: Beyond Journey's End is about an elf that is exploring the world after a human friend died, and actually paying attention to it and the shorter lived people for the first time after ages of just doing her own thing, it's super well done, she's always on a different time scale from everyone
I enjoyed Frieren very much :) I don't reference it in this video, but I spoke about it in my other video where I spoke about all the benefits that come with immortal characters :)
It’s funny how well Highlander did an immortal. Interview was good too but they really got it across he was lived long whilst the Eternals created immortals that didn’t seem to have lived long because they were so boring with their life. It still amazes me how Highlander 2 even got made with such a throwing out of good universe and story 😂
*cough* money *cough* Studio execs are greedy AF.
I wrote an immortal character, and he regrets being immortal. Cyborg robotic body, only part original human is the brain sustained by the Cyborg body. He has abilities beyond human like mind download and holographic appearance manipulation. His stakes involve an immortal antagonist, Nyarlahotep. The struggle is mental and emotional
Why he regrets it?
@@libertyprime1614 he sees himself as a brain in a vat, no longer enjoying his personhood. His cyborg body replaced the human body he had, so he knows he will never have the milestone events human people have, and he misses that.
I saw Highlander 2 in theaters. It took me until after the tv series was off the air before I found out they’d retconned that nonsense immediately.
In my book series people only age because of trauma, otherwise they stay frozen at the age of 25.
Of course, human mind has its limits, so in spite of the many things you may master, there is only so much you can retain once you completely drop it for, let's say, 30 years. And the way magic works, every generation is slightly stronger, so staying the best at something requires so much focus that maybe immortality is a curse, as your self assigned life purposed can be ruined by a youngster with little to nothing you can do.
They can still be killed, which happens frequently because of monsters. That is extremely traumatic. Like, imagine knowing that you may live for millenia and someone you cared about is *gone*. Forever. It's much much worse for them, even more so given that they know that person would have lived forever otherwise.
They can be killed, but not from starving. So they are much less likely to seek changed, out of fear of being perceived as petty. Why end slavery, if I may eventually buy my freedom? Why end inequality if I may eventually buy what I need? Why end racism if I may receive the same things just being patient?
So their society progresses at a painfully slow rate.
Which makes it perfect for a perfect world for a protagonist raised among mortals to be forced to face.
I don't have any of these problems, and I came up with my immortals when I was 12.
There have been several books I've read which have done the immortal character correctly Highlander had some flaws with the whole concept of there can be only one, they created the end of their own movie and made an extremely difficult to continue it past the first one even though they tried and it ended horribly. What's the founding rationale for the whole immortals in Highlander made no sense at all.
Every Highlander movie broke every rule each previous movie established.
The tv show continued doing that too.
I agree with everything you said about Highlander 2. But I actually loved it for being so bad and muddled, classic B movie.
My favorite B Movie is Black Sheep. It's about weresheep in New Zealand and I cry with laughter every time I watch it.
@JustInTimeWorlds I remember that movie it was great, there was an episode of The Boys that recently reminded me of it.
There is so much unexplored territory with immortals! What if one is immortal but not invincible and could be imprisoned and even tortured with no escape. Arguably a fate worse than death! Or what if someone is mortal but reincarnates with all their memories and skills, perhaps by some cosmic glitch.
@@MagnusItland in "the old guard" *spoilers* one of the immortal characters is trapped in a metal cage and throw into the ocean. She drowns, dies, comes back to life and repeats the process for hundreds of years. Truly terrifying
Tons of anime under the reincarnated trope.
@@kflowers8276 As far as I recall (not having watched all anime but a fairly broad sample) reincarnation always happens in another world, typically a fantasy / game-like world. Is there no story potential in a person coming back to the ordinary world with the memories of an earlier life, or better yet several earlier lives? How would such a person react to the current world, how would they react to being born in a foreign country, maybe with a different skin color or gender? So much potential unrealized.
@@MagnusItland Good point. I didn't realize you meant "real world" reincarnation. Definitely there's potential for that. Mostly, I see it in Korean dramas. Specifically regarding reincarnation I'm thinking of "See You in My 19th Life."
For point one I first heard "lowering the sex"
and while not the point I still thought there was logic in it. Many shows, books etc have immortals act like teenager sex rabbits
I love it :D
I think Dr Who’s weakness is that he seems quite lonely all the time. He is quite codependent. He has immortality and is completely 3 steps ahead of everyone but he or she ends up with a companion almost constantly. I think it’s a fair balance to the character because even if the Dr can’t be harmed his companion can and he is tied to the companion.
Yeah, the companion is a fantastic part of the doctor.
Not nerd out too much,but he does have at least one other weakness, magic for one.
You know what really grinds my gears?? When immortals don't age or mature consistently. In Wizards: Tales of Arcadia, Douxie and Merlin are both >900 year old immortals who have been alive since Arthurian times, yet Merlin has the body of an old man, while Douxie is stuck as a young adult. I don't mind, because there's time-travel magic which I assume trapped their bodies in stasis, and that's when they actually became immortal. What I DO mind is that 900 years later, Douxie thinks and acts like a modern-day rebellious 19 year old, despite being older than the United States. Which would be fine, if he didn't grow so much as a character during the series, which takes place over the course of like 3-4 days. It makes me wonder how in 900 years of fighting monsters he didn't mature as much as he did in that 3-4 days.
I have the same gripe with vampires that look like teenagers also having the maturity level of teenagers, despite their wealth of experiences.
It’s astonishing how many people whinge and moan about immortal characters not having a character arc. How much more fine tuning do they think someone’s personality would experience after centuries and millennia of life experience? How much more learning and growing would make any sense?
Kenneth in 30 rock. Best immortal 😊
I adore Highlander but dear gods is the worldbuilding kinda wonky sometimes.
I'd describe it as professionally shoe-horned :D (And I also still love the IP haha)
@@JustInTimeWorlds That is fair! :D
The immortal character might be immortal, but they are the only one. Nobody around them is.
The big thing about an "immortal" character, is to give them proper weaknesses and the tragic of outliving anyone you know while also having to change place and name to keep it hidden.
Like having them not age and heal super fast, but let them still be able to die from combat and injury. Have people recognize that the person looks exactly the same as 10 years ago and as their "father".
That was sort of the backdrop in Highlander. He lost his wife to age. He has to constantly (relative to his existence) move and replace his identity.
If the immortal can be "killed" but comes back to life shortly after. Sure, they can't die for good, but they still remember every death. They still feel pain.
And who says the immortal has to be old. They could be new to the situation.
An immortal might be undying, but that doesn't mean they are superior in a fight. A mortal, but vastly overpowering antagonist might even play with the fact that they can beat up the immortal again and again.
If I use immortals, relative immortals or nearly immortals, I tend to have them either as secondary characters or as antagonists.
For my biggest setting I just made most of the main characters very long lived. That way I have the time to let them experience lots of things and put them into different time periods, but they still will age and die eventually. They can still be killed. They still have all the things any other mortal has. They might be more powerful than a regular human, but not all conflicts can be solved by sheer force.
The immortals are usually halfway to being gods who don't meddle in the day-to-day troubles of mortals. Some of them are overpowered and see it as something beneath them, others are simply unable to do it.
I hate when writers can't write immortal or powerful characters so they lean on a lazy technique. They "nerf" the character. Meaning they weaken the character.
Instead they could have just increased the dangers. In Highlander, they made them immortals but established rules ahead of time. They are immortal unless someone beheads them. Plus, they could still be injured. Like a powerful vampire still has the classic exploitable weakness. Stake to the heart, sunlight, beheading, garlic, and holy relics.
Look at Superman the Animated Series. Yes, he's Superman but...in this show, more than just Kryptonite can hurt him. In the cartoon, this Superman could be affected by high voltage electricity, magic, psychic attacks, time manipulation, other super powerful characters, unusual alien technology, weird cosmic forces, extreme gravity, and being deprived of his energy source. Not necessarily weaknesses but conditions that can stagger the powerful character.
Yeah, there’s plenty of ways to deal with OP characters without nerfing their power.
DEATH from the Terry Pratchett discworld series is an immortal character done well.
AGREED ❤️
When it comes to grow I believe we should probably see immortality how, flies probably see humans. They live for a few days max. But doesn't mean we aren't stoll growing. To a fly, grand child or grate grandchild we are different to what there predecessor knew.
Technically, the "immortals" in Highlander are not immortal, just long lived and difficult to kill. They can die in battle to normies if they get beheaded. In fact, in the film, all of them end upndead (except one)
Marie: gives her signature intro
Me: Oh no, here it comes
Intro bird: EEEEYAHHH EEEYAHHHH!
I do try to harmonize the volume. I'll try to tone down that screech more.
It's not that bad tbh I'm just dramatic lol
Highlander 2 is better than 90% of movies being made today.
You know. I actually have a mc who is technically immortal. I say technically because she is a wrath. A vengeful undead who can't rest until they get vengeance. Although in the world, there are things that can also eat your soul which would make her death permanent, and if someone is at peace with death, they fade entirely.
Long story short. In the world I made, even being a super zombie who wakes up from death after 24 hours doesn't mean you have nothing to fear, and the ability isn't exclusive to her.
if everything that you are made of, can and has been replaced...is that immortality?
That's a great question. Dr Who could have explored that one more I think.
❤
you're only immortal until something/someone kills you... how long do you need to be live before you're immortal?500?...5,000?..superman isn't even 100..would a werewolf be an immortal?
I dont know any real fan that even considers Highlander 2 part of canon.
It was kind of a novel idea in the TV show that the watchers had a better understanding of the immortals journey than they themselves understood or frankly remembered.
Wait a second sure they are in theory immortal but there will be only one so to say there wasn't an imperative doesn't strike true. With each kill they acquire their foes power whatever that was. SO hiding away didn't advantage any of them.
Anyone who has faced death or the almost certainty of it tend to be pessimistic especially in the case of war.
150,000 people die every single day but I haven't known anyone bemoaning that fact. If they have lived say 10,000 years that could be 588 LTR that they have lived thru how many realistically could you see die before you with drew from society wasn't that the case with Adam?
5:02 Another Highlander?
There's a renegade cut of Highlander 2. Google Highlander II renegade version and you should find it. They cut out all the crap with the planet Zeist. It was... well it was better. Still not a perfect sequel. They should have left it at one, but it was better.
Forever knight - flàshback!!! History - where you never learn anything😊
Just remember immortality and invincibility Re no the sane thing.
The idea that time is slower for immortals in LotR is stupid. Even if you are lazy, if you have all the time in the world, you have to do some thing. He doesn't have TV Internet, PS there is nothing to do there. You can forget a good friend for year even 2 but 20y. No! The only reason if you don't visit is you don't want to see or talk with that person. That is it. In the move it wasn't like that. If immortals is OP is not so much of a problem. You can make it stupid or with other funny thing about it to make it funny. Or just make stupid villains.
What drives me nuts about immortals - especially if they're "ascended" and wise in some fashion - is when they're written like emotionally unstable children who need mortals to teach them about good and evil and responsibility. Q from the "Star Trek" series would be an example, though he's designed to be an immature jerk, so he's deliberately problematic. But I've seen plenty of ostensibly angelic characters who petty jerks too, and that smacks more of a writer who has no idea how to write a character who is better than a teenage bully.
We do NOT recognise highlander 2. Never. It did NOT happen 😂
Wish I could heart this twice 😂
@@JustInTimeWorlds quick question. Are you from South Africa by any chance?
There is only one highlander film. There are only 3 Indiana Jones films.
Most people agree they should have stopped with the first one
9:35 Woah woah, Spoiler alert! Holy moley, you cannot just throw major series spoilers into a video without warning.
Saw Highlander II in theatres. It was terrible.
Highlander 2... Smh.
Comment approved 😂
My story has several Pseudo-immortal characters, but the main protagonist is one of the few genuine immortals, I wanted to find a way to balance his ability by making it so he's 1. weak to a any form of "Life" magic (his immortality comes from necrotic magic inside of him, as a side effect of his resurrection), which causes him to almost convulse on the ground if he gets hit by it, and 2. the fact that his general view of his own immortality causes issues with people who care about him, where they would see him get hurt brutally over and over again and despise it happening, meanwhile he really wouldn't care less due to him viewing it as "better it be me than someone else".
That sounds fascinating.
What are you talking about?
There are no sequels to Highlander!
There are not!
Nope.
Never existed.
😊
Okay the pictures you put for this video are kind of dumb sorry You show Satan and then you show Superman as far as I know Superman has never been depicted as being immortal and the other is Satan so what else can you say about that ??
Immortality 🤷 means no risk for the protagonist. That's not LOWERING the stakes, its eliminating it.
I've never been a fan of immortality in media/lore, because it just doesn't work (and it never has, in my opinion), seeing as we can only see it through a mortal scope. Giving an immortal character "something to live for" is too mortal an idea. Cynicism itself melts away when entropy takes center stage, making it a wonky plot point as well. Making sense of immortlity is a pitfall all on its own. We feel how we feel and do what we do because everything is finite. An infinte character would ultimately be incomprehensible, and should be written as such, if at all. Perhaps I'm reading too deep into it, but Lucifer grows "as a person" because something within him has to die. Elrond "remembers" the fall of man because it takes mortality to understand the concept of time. An immortal character is no character at all.
I don't understand this perspective, to be perfectly honest.
Why would life lose its zest? I will be blunt; I think many people convince thenselves immortality must secretly be awful... because they are mortal. Immortality is a thing they'll never have, so to cope, they must convince themselves it's undesirable.
I have been through... much, and through it all I realized something extraordinary.
I do not want to die. Simply gazing at the blue sky is a miracle. I don't want to die, and I never will. People are too fixated on things that just don't matter; when the miracle of life is all around them.
I cannot ever imagine losing the will to live. I could spend ten thousand years and still uncover only a fraction of the Earth's wonders.
In my book, elves are immortal. They almost cannot be killed, and they are eternally young. They start life as human, but through magic they "perfect themselves". At first, this is exciting and fun. And then it turns into millennia of hyper-intense boredom. The magic that makes them immortal requires a high degree of narcissism, but there's only so many centuries of self-worship before even that gets boring. So, no real character arcs are even possible. Mastering a complex skill? Yeah, did that centuries ago. Every possible form of hedonism (food, sex, self-indulgent art)? Done. More than once. Get rich? Who cares? They are eternally stuck in "perfection". The point of them in the story is that they can't have a character arc. They can't really grow as people since their very immortality depends on the unwavering belief in their own perfection. It was fun to write, and I used it to contrast them with characters who can and do grow and change.
They make good flat characters for sure.