"So naturally, the best way to avoid writing a Mary Sue is to make every single thing in the story go wrong for them" Oh how I do love fiction that reads like a case study of Murphy's Law.
suzaku from Code Geass is the best example of this. He is unlikable and extremely skilled person but nothing go right for him and everybody hate him. I pity him but also hating him for being a such a hypocrite.
Calling it a fraction is an insult to his infinite knowledge This is a mere grain of knowledge in the endless constellation of correct ideas and universal knowledge
And with this plan in mind, she gets home after making a purchase with her new Samsung Galaxy S7 with an all new super battery with x10 the power! soon she will have all the footage to prove how everything goes wrong!
Remember kids : Your character is automatically not a Mary Sue if they're slightly clumsy, that's how you know they have flaws! Sure it's a single one but hey, it's a flaw, meaning that you can deflect any criticism about them having none.
Failing and getting captured means your Mary Sue is free to gain new powers and rescue herself! Meeting new people is when your Mary Sue should show she's better than the character who's triple her age at the old character's job!
@@hariman7727 ...This topic was also covered by Just a Robot, Critical Drinker and Jay-Exci made a 5 hour ideo about a group of them but dont worry about that huge videolength, i assure its not a problem.
Thats not what a Mary Sue is. It doesn't mean they have 0 flaws, but that their flaws have no baring on the story nor any negative effect on them or the plot. If your character being clumsy never matters in the story then they'd still be a Mary Sue
“But… but that’s settling for mediocrity! Only the best, or bust! Always chase excellence…!” 😂 On a more serious note, yes, for us amateurs and hobby writers, it’s totally okay. As Ral Zarek said in Magic: The Gathering, “Good ideas don’t take time; they take a lot of bad ideas first.” What’s more frustrating is seeing writers with the same or lower level of “talent” somehow failing their way to the top, getting recruited for these corporate mega-projects of ruining established franchises, by essentially doing the same that a lot of the amateur hobby writers are doing: Writing fan fiction. With all of the features fan fiction tends to have. Such as Mary Sues.
Just remove the word writer, and it's probably the most important advice anyone trying something new can get. You're not going to start perfect, or even good, but that's fine. "It's okay to be a bad." Okay, so you have to remove the "a" as well...
Reminds me of the old days roleplaying on forums where EVERYONE'S characters were over-the-top colorful magical powerful beautiful people with wings, cool hair and a tragic past 😂. Good times... we had fun.
I love the natural evolution of this channel from parodying the writing of people who don't know better to parodying the writing of people who are obsessed with *seeming* like they know better. Can't stand how genuinely helpful critique concepts get hijacked by both critics and writers until the writers are overcompensating at the expense of their story.
This topic was also covered by Just a Robot, Critical Drinker and Jay-Exci made a 5 hour ideo about a group of them but dont worry about that huge videolength, i assure its not a problem. !!
"SHOW DON'T TELL." "YOU NEED TO HAVE A HOOK." None of this is wrong, but I'll hear it applied wrong. A hook doesn't need to be an action scene, it is just anything that catches a readers attention. Show don't tell can lead to too much showing which drags a story on. Sometimes it is fine to just tell, so long as it fits in the story. "Somehow, Palpatine has returned, and also he has a giant fleet of star destroyers, and each of them has a death star laser, and also he sent a message out to the entire universe." The last part there is especially egregious, because technically it was shown... in Fortnite.
@@ImTakingYouToFlavorTownThat hook part reminds me of this Reddit post where a friend of OP was writing a fanfic, and OP told them to just put something interesting in there, and so they put "(Character) puked on his chair." And then they forgot to change it before publishing the fic. Still, that'll catch even a tiktok addicted 6-year-old's attention.
@@ImTakingYouToFlavorTownyeah show don't tell is told to someone that tells too much (I forgot dumps). But people took it too literally (show never tell)
Mary Sue as a villain would be truly horrifying. Imaging slowly discovering that you are practically a slave to this extremely powerful person, everyone and everything seems to revolve around her, nobody can talk about anything without it inevitably coming back to her. I don't even know what you could do about it because she also has plot armor! edit: I can't believe it took me this long to realize this, but I basically described The Count of Monte Cristo, I will never live this down it's basically half my personality at this point! (I've even made a video about adaptations of it and plan on making more videos. Yes this is a shameless plug I learned from the best, Subscribe to Technoblade!) But yeah, the universe loves this guy it takes four guys with their own reasons to dislike him in order to bring him down and then he comes back richer and more powerful than all of them put together. and when he does come back he is all they can talk about and the world still revolves around him. It's not even a supernatural story!
If you've heard of the SCP Foundation, this is essentially the plot of the LOLFoundation canon: All the old senior staff self-insert characters back in the old days of the site are reimagined as reality-warping monsters that bend the universe to their whims.
Thinking about it, everyone being Mary Sues partially addresses the issues normally caused by having a Mary Sue. A character being one is strongly determined by how their character relates to and interacts with the setting, situations, and other characters. So making everyone overblown, while silly, might actually be less frustrating as it makes the character less of a Mary Sue.
Yeah, how powerful a character actually is in a setting is usually relative unless the powers they possess are so absurdly overpowered that even a babbling idiot or literal infant would be able to kill God by actively using them. Mary Sues | Gary Stus are often such centralizing characters for their respective settings even if their own level of overall power is not at the top of that of the setting due to tending both to trounce every challenge for one reason or another *and* utterly warp the plot around them while doing so. Having a bunch of characters with relatively absurdly strong powers is more than fine if that's just the nature of the setting, e.g. a large amount of superhero settings and of shonen. Doesn't mean those settings automatically avoid their own (usually male) Mary Sue characters though since plot-warping doesn't need you to be the absolute actual strongest. Sometimes it even benefits from you being the relatively weakest.*cough*Batman*cough*
Reminds of a quote that went something like this: "What makes a Mary Sue isn't her rainbow hair, technicolor eyes, or magic superpowers. It's how she takes the plot, bends it over, and fucks it in the ass."
The only trope I criticize like that is "Your religion is a hollow lie and your monotheistic God is actually satanhitlerstalinvoneeeeeevil"... because EVERYONE thinks they're creative in doing it, and everyone does it in the exact same obvious and trite way, barring VERY few exceptions.
He did an honest thoughts video about tropes, and in it he covered the topic, so I don't think he is going to feel the need to cover it in a TWA episode.
The best advice on character writing I've ever gotten is _"Don't worry about if you're writing a Mary Sue or not, just write a character"_ Take a character, give them some quirks, and you'll probably be fine. Don't fuss over arbitrary definitions. There are no rules when it comes to writing. Except grammar and spelling. Those are rules you have to follow.
To be fair, Yoda breaks the rules of grammar on the regular, and a major reason why _Flowers for Algernon_ hits the way it does is because of the narrator's ability to spell paralleling their mental state. _All_ rules can be broken if you have a really, really good reason. Just not all at once.
"A writer can't just go ahead and write indulgent crap to get it out of their system. Never should a writer accept that it's okay to be bad." The essential step that every writing advice channel loves to just gloss over for some reason.
I wrote so much garbage, it's insane. Basically re-writing Jurassic Park, but the premise wasn't the ethics in science, but... enviromentalism? I also wrote science fiction, although i normaly don't like this genre. The worst of the worst: I had a folder where i collected every "funny situation" or "tough comment" i encountered, mostly from The Simpsons. I am pretty sure somebody at Marvel found this folder and i am the sole reason "Marvel-like humor" is now a popular and negative trope.
@@valentinmitterbauer4196 Marvel found it 😂 Tbh tho, I'm really glad for you. I've spent so much time paralyzed by my fear of being disappointed with my work that I rarely really write anything.
@@abbierose2278 What helped me with overcoming my fear from bad writing is: There are millions of dreadful books selling like sliced bread. You are at no risk to write "too bad" to be a accomplished author.
@@valentinmitterbauer4196Jurassic park but the focus is on environmentalism? Don’t you mean most of the Jurassic park/world movies? Seriously, the dinosaurs should have been eradicated they would be the worst invasive species in history
@@abbierose2278 Remember that even if YOU feel it's trashy... Well, comfort food is a thing. And comfort fics are a thing. I know that some of the bad stuff I wrote was somehow really well-liked even if I feel like I should personally apologize for inflicting that on all the people who commented on my fics. Also: you will ALWAYS gain perspective and judge old works by your current standards, which is unfair because you weren't born with all of what you learned beamed into your brain retroactively, so don't judge your old works by your current standards, it's unfair to yourself. (But do go ham on rewriting it, if that's what you want to do, rewrites can be glorious, as can recycling the good parts of a bad story.) Also it's okay to write self-indulgent fics (or to spite-write a trope because you got personally offended, like I recently wrote straight omegaverse because I was that insulted that I thought "even I can write better than these guys and I'm crap at it!", and then I showed it at my friends for fun and... well the ace thought my spitefic was hot, which was the weirdest sense of accomplishment I ever got.) TL;DR: dare to write, even if it never leaves your hard drive's homework folder.
"Then a bunch of flaws are even better! Just keep lumping on all kinds of character flaws until the character collapses under the weight of them!!" I see JP has watched Velma
yeah. especially like the one where they write the autism as infant/man child who insufferable smart. it even better to make them have no empathy and be asshole. got love that more a plot decided for the neurotypical rather then them being their own character. also have to spread those harmful ways to deal with meltdowns/overstimulation.
@@Thejellopersonssomthing I mention it because the Netflix TV series Heartstoppers is one of the best written LGBTQ themed shows around right now. It writes numerous kinds of queer characters and explores queer topics and issues in a sensitive, respectful and nuanced manner. Overall it is the current gold standard on how to write LGBTQ characters well It is aimed at a teen audience so it is harder to relate to as much if you're in your 20s/30s and older but it's still fantastic nonthless
Kinda wanna write a story where the main character does nothing but still gets involved in all of the action, then it's later revealed that she has reality warping abilities and that she's causing these things to happen around her Edit: apparently this comment blew up and I just realized now. Thank you all for the recommendations!
A reality-warping eldritch horror that looks like a pretty but normal girl. She does nothing but travels. Her being around anything that exists warps it.
The real reason most if his work went unpublished is that he was too busy putting all of his time and energy into harrasing and attacking less experienced writers. Look it up. It's science.
It's also a running joke in some of JP's previous videos. In his video on Deconstruction, he talks about how he'll "prove" that he's smarter than Tolkien, and accompanies this with an image of him threatening to take his lunch money. In his Media Literacy video, we see his response, something like "Take all the lunch money you want, but say 'allegory' one more time and I'll bury you so deep not even the Dwarves will be able to find you!" Here, we see that JP hasn't exactly heeded Tolkien's warning.
Making a sympathetic villain protagonist by giving them a tragic past of being constantly abused which, unintentionally to the writers, as the story progressed, it backfired as the abuser’s behaviors became more and more justified because the protagonist became too evil that in the end of the story, the audience will side with the abuser and consider them to be “right all along” for abusing the protagonist. Prime example: Chuck McGill (abuser) and Saul Goodman (protagonist)/ Logan Roy (abuser) and Kendall Roy (protagonist)
You see, there's a spectrum. On one end, there's "Eats babies." On the other end, there's "Doesn't eat babies." All you have to do is put your character smack dab in the middle of that spectrum, and boom, you've got a complex, nuanced character.
There are the Magneto/Killmonger/Grindelwald types of grey characters: - They want to do good things - But they kill babies You mixed up white intentions and black morality and tadaaaaaa! You have a compelling grey character! (no) EDIT: Bonus point if your character does not even have white intentions but is a manipulator all the way. Writing grey characters is hard, so let's instead write characters who look grey but are not.
It's why I've settled on, "A character who the author favors to the point it's detrimental to the story" as the only concise and clear-cut definition of a "Mary Sue." It'd be better if there were a concise and snappy term for this that is common enough that people get it but Mary Sue is the one that has gained the most traction and it's good enough.
One story I want to write has EVERYBODY being THE best at what they do... but the perfect thief can't steal a cornerstone from a major building without destroying that building, and the knight who can pierce anything that can be pierced and crush anything that can be crushed can't beat a social situation into submission... and it's hard to stab something twice your size when you've being held up by the face, and because lots of people can develop powers like that, you've got to find a way to play to your strengths and find weaknesses. The Thief can steal the deed to the building, and order everyone out before taking the cornerstone. The knight can learn how to manage social situations passably, and has help from others to not fight alone. And other ways of working around weaknesses/playing to strengths.
To any writers who might read this: The demographic of media consumers that debate eternally about whether characters are Mary Sues or not is a very small minority that can be safely ignored. So long as you design a character that isn’t overwhelmingly Mr/Mrs perfect or a 0 in every special stat, then most people won’t have an issue with them
Its less about how overpowered the characters are, and more about to what degree the plot bends to accommodate them like the weave bends to the Ta'veren in Wheel of Time. If a character does something stupid, it should have repercussions and not get immediately glossed over, and it should also not feel like other characters are acting out of character just so they can get all the best moments. There needs to be a level of logical consistency within the story, and some degree of visibility in the flow of cause and effect. Instead of having new powers as the plot demands, try to find another method of solving the problem with the abilities the character has already displayed, and if they do reveal a new power, have something in the story actually show why they can suddenly do it, or haven't already done it beforehand. And never introduce a power that will only be used once and forgotten about, especially if it's a power that can easily solve every problem in the future with ease.
True. Also the mindset of someone who is inexperienced and tried to write something nobody could possibly object to because they watched other writers get skewered by the internet and were terrified it would happen to them, too.
The difference between an interesting character and a boring one is not the amount of assets you tack onto the character model, but how you pose them. While every other character was being placed and posed in this video, both Mary Sue and Not Mary Sue retained the same posture: idleness and indifference.
Best take. It's also the execution that can make or break or make it. Just look at the Disney re-makes; it has the same story and all but they crashed the landing 43 miles away from the original point.
Hell, I’m gonna argue that Mary sues aren’t even necessarily boring and don’t always ruin a story! Sure, they’re a sign of bad writing, but that doesn’t mean that stories with Mary Sues are doomed to be no longer entertaining
It's such a shame Mary Sue doesn't have the bite it should anymore. A loud minority of writers have seemingly just started to make pointlessly rude and obnoxious protagonists whilst still trying to pass them off as likeable.
@@starmaker75 I blame that on so many characters made into a Mary Sue and politicized. true, many people use the term to just throw shade, but that doesn't mean there aren't real Mary Sue characters as well. in the end, the only person to decide if a character is a Mary Sue/Marty Stu is the individual reader.
@@sinisterthoughts2896 I think my personal favorite example is rey from Star Wars. calling her a Mary Sue is a valid critique because of how the story bends around her to make her look cool. that’s like a textbook Mary Sue. however, a lot of the people I saw calling her that didn’t actually have arguments besides “she’s an overpowered female character”, or “something something evil feminism”. it was a weird combination of misogyny and bad media literacy. The critiques were correct, but she’s not a Mary Sue because she’s a woman or because she’s “over powered”. she’s a Mary Sue because the story around her twists itsself into knots to make her look good.
@@wren_. Don't forget undeserved title-taking, 'Rey Palpatine' in that last scene... or 'Just Rey'... she didn't 'earn' Skywalker. c.c Amoung so many other issues.
I remember the story with what I felt was the biggest Mary Sue I'd ever read was an Villainess Isekai, a genre that's admittedly oversaturated with OP protags, but it had absolutely nothing to do with her powers. It was entirely her role in the narrative that made me consider her a Mary Sue. Because she was the most passive fucking protagonist I've ever seen in my goddamm life. She would just stand there like a piece of soggy toast and the narrative would twist itself into a pretzel trying to dump gifts on her lap and justify her as the most special person in existence for doing nothing. Like, in the first few chapters, she's trying to shake her coachman so she can leave the country, but she just stands there and makes excuses until a handsome stranger appears and pretends to be her servant so she can get to the train station. This handsome stranger just happens to be the prince of a neighbouring country, who apparently butted in... just because. Like she wasn't even in trouble with thugs or anything. Her coachman was literally too worried about her to let her leave alone. Anyways, princey immediately decides to take her to all his closest knights and aides, and of course THEY all decide she's the best thing since sliced bread and immediately treat her like a longtime friend and confidante just because. No reason. They just do. So of course they decide to bring her along with them on their road trip, to a place that is coincidentally her mother's homeland, and when she randomly dips her feet in some water she unlocks her super-special rainbow magic powers. To reiterate: she just happens to accompany a person who iust happens to be the prince of a neighbouring country who just happens to take her to the place she needed to go to unlock her powers, while the "protag" herself takes absolutely no actions that would justify having these things happens to her, and just stands around and lets other people lead her along to wherever she needs to go to be rewarded as the most specialest person to have ever been born by the narrative. I consider her a Mary Sue because she does NOTHING. I would literally have no problem with any of the things that happen to her if SHE was the one who made them happen. If going to her mother's homeland to unlock her real powers had been her goal from the start, instead of something she stumbles into. If she had grabbed a random man by the arm to pretend he's her servant for the coachman, and he turned out to be a prince, it would be contrived, but this genre is full of contrivances anyways and at least this way she's playing an active part instead of being a narrarive tungsten cube that just fucking sits there. If maybe the prince didn't immediately decide she's the best thing since sliced bread and only accompanied her out of curiosity, and then take more of an interest when he sees her super special awesomesauce rainbow sprinkle with a cherry on top magic. The events would be the same, the protagonist's powers would be the same, but it would feel more satisfying because she would have been an active participant in her own fate. And I think that's the difference between a Sue and a character.
How Isekai fans talk about Isekai: "Oh, another trash Isekai." "Man, this episode is so bad." "Absolutely disgusting." "The Worst." "That makes no sense." The same people five seconds later: "Well see you guys next week to watch the new episode." "See you then." "Bye." "Man, I can't wait."
I remember caring far too much about the status of a character being somehow a mary sue. Now I'm just like "lol, I'm going to have a story beat where she rips and tears a mech to pieces with little more than a crowbar and anime martial arts." as it was meant to be.
Literally my stories, basically just Gumball/Sonic plots where basically every fantasy race possible beats up hordes of a mad doctor's evil robots and wacky henchmen, and maybe kill a god or two as collateral damage.
Thank you for making this. I used to sweat all the time about how people would interpret characters I write. Obsessing over what people think about your work isn't super helpful and I only got my big projects done when I decided that it only mattered that I liked and believed the characters. Internet discourse can be terrible and its great to have a video to point people to.
It is interesting how modern parlance has moved Mary Sue from the very ‘this OC in a fanfic is taking up too much of the story and is blocking out the characters I care about’ to ‘this character in the story is objectively bad because they take up too much of the plot’. That’s not to say Mary Sue’s can’t exist in non-fanfic media, I just feel like the part where the Mary Sue is a post-hoc addition to an original cast is an important point of the definition that’s often forgotten. Without that unique qualifier the term ‘Mary Sue’ can cover the scope of literally any female character you find annoying.
I've heard the former logic applied to characters like gojo (my bad, he's now go/jo). I can definitely say that he has a lot of narrative connections, was also the highest tier mf, and was the center of several plots. But he's not really a sue. So how is he defined? a narrative star?
It's been a long time since I even wanted to label a character a Mary Sue. The last time I got that vibe was when I played Dragon Age Inquisition and first heard about Grand Enchanter Fiona, the Grey Warden who got to leave the Wardens and is immune both to the Blight and the Calling for some reason, who has an over the top angsty backstory, and who's secretly the mother of Alistair even though that retcons his backstory from Origins. I don't like using the term Mary Sue, but sometimes a pitch just gets lobbed right over the plate.
Genuinely I wish the term "Mary Sue" never breached containment from fanfiction circles because it completely loses any real meaning outside of them for the reasons you said
@@teddyhaines6613Fiona’s not a main character and is almost completely irrelevant to anything if you recruit the Templars instead. And if you recruit the mages she’s only a tiny bit more relevant. She’s not important enough to Inquisition to be a Mary Sue. I’ve not read the books, maybe she is there, but I don’t think her appearance in the game counts enough for it.
@@SorowFame I was referring to her portrayal in the books where she is the main character, apologies for being unclear. The main game doesn't mention her rape-heavy backstory and I don't remember if it mentions her inexplicable Blight immunity. It's just that Inquisition was the first time I'd heard of her, and upon looking at what happened in the stories centering on her, I had to throw up my hands and call BS.
A long time ago I used to write a lot of fan fiction and would write entire "extra seasons" of existing series. I wrote two major OCs that were close to main characters. One I could write lots of stories with, but the other led me to eventually quit because I was unable to write a conflict for an OC, but now I'm realizing they were a Mary Sue. Non-Mary Sue OC: Cirrus Storm (MLP FiM) Rainbow Dash's cousin who was close friends with Rainbow as fillies and frequently raced, but Cirrus always lost. Eventually Cirrus got so desperate to win that she experimented with ways to cheat, and found out how to harness kinetic/electric energy from storm clouds by stuffing them into cannisters and calling them "Storm Battieres". She finally beat Rainbow Dash in a race by strapping Storm Battery powered Rockets under her wings, but then got a cutiemark of a Storm Battery. Afterwards Cirrus became deeply depressed over this, believing her cutiemark was for "cheating" and saw it as a symbol of shame. She disconnected from all her friends and family and moved to live in isolation from everyother pony, causing her to become unempathetic, introverted, and insecure. To earn a living, she sold storm battery technology to Cloudsdale. Character wise, she genuinely wants to help other ponies, but has trouble knowing whats socially acceptable which causes problems. Several stories were written about her surrounding her flaws: -The cutiemark crusaders help Cirrus see her cutiemark as a good thing as the tech she invented benefited Cloudsdale immensely, and move on from seeing it as a negative status symbol for cheating. They also restore her friendship with Rainbow. -Twilight wants to meet Cirrus after hearing about her from the crusaders. Cirrus instead flees believing the only reason royalty would want to talk to her is if she commited a crime. -Cirrus gets mad at Rainbow for not liking one of her inventions, so the Mane 6 teach Cirrus that being friends with someone doesn't mean instant approval. -Cirrus Storm creates prosethic wing extensions for Scootaloo so she can fly like other Pegasi, but Scootaloo finds shes no where near as good at flying as other Pegasi so she becomes embarrassed to see Rainbow Dash again. Cirrus Storm tells Scootaloo about her own insecurities of losing to Rainbow Dash but thanks to the crusaders gained the courage to see her again, so Scootaloo shows her prosethic wings to Rainbow anyways -Cirrus backwards engineers Changeling abilities and invents a device that lets the user to shapeshift into other things, then loans it out to others in hopes of approval but others just end up abusing it for personal gain. Chaos ensues and she has to be taught a lesson in self-restraint. -A Pegasus stallion dog walker develops a crush on Fluttershy. Cirrus tries to help the stallion get a date with Fluttershy but doesn't take into account how uncomfortable this makes Fluttershy. The stallion eventually calls Cirrus out on this. -In the "extra season" finale, the antagonist is an incredibly dangerous Necromancer Wolf who was defeated by Celestia 500 year ago by sealing their power inside a gemstone, but the gemstone couldn't be destroyed so it was buried. In the present, the Necromancer Wolf revives with a fraction of his power, but can sense where the gemstone is and if they obtain it they get restored to full power allowing him to take over Equestria in an instant. While Celestia admits she couldn't destroy the gemstone 500 years ago, she suspects there's probably a way in the present to get rid of the Necromancer for good and tasks the Mane 6 in consulting various magic prodigies, meanwhile Rainbow Dash is given the gemstone and is required to fly as fast as possible to escape the Necromancer Wolf's shadow clones that he sent to retrieve the gemstone until a means of destroying it is found. Rainbow Dash becomes increasingly exhausted but she has to keep going as she's the only one fast enough to outmaneuver the shadow clones. In the final stretch, Sunburst and other unicorns invent a spell that can invert the gemstones contained power and cause it to self-destruct so they request Rainbow Dash bring the gemstone to them, but the Mane 6 find out Rainbow Dash became exhausted and had the gemstone taken from her so its being delivered to the Necromancer. She tells the Mane 6 that only somepony who can fly as fast as her could reach the shadow clones in time. Fortunately Cirrus Storm steps up and takes out the "Storm Battery Powered Rockets" she originally used to cheat in the race against Rainbow Dash and rockets her way to the shadow clones and retrieves the gemstone right before the Necromancer Wolf gets it back, allowing Sunburst to perform the spell to destroy it along with the wolf. Every pony celebrates Cirrus Storm, but Rainbow Dash cries in the corner as she failed in the end. Cirrus Storm asks everypony to acknowledge Rainbow Dashes efforts to keep the gemstone away as long as she did which cheers her up. Mary Sue OC: Kiyee (Legend of Korra) A Waterbender who invented "Vapor Bending" who could bend literally anything as long as its wet, including air in moist areas. He ends up cooperating with the main cast simply out of competence and desire to help. They practically rivalled Korra in terms of strength. The fan fic series just consisted of Kiyee defeating a threat of unknown origin repeatedly, but I didnt decide on what the threat was in advance. Just that Id write what it was in a later entry. However after 8 entries of him defeating random enemies I still couldn't come up with a convincing villain or threat as there's nothing that could defeat Kiyee with what's established about him, so I just abandoned writing fan fics of that series entirely with no finale.
0:58 I’m now liking the idea of a story where *every single character* is an overpowered, “perfect” Mary Sue. All the stereotypical traits associated with Mary Sues clashing with each other in a world where everyone has them sounds like an absolute clusterfuck and I’m all for it.
8:00 I just had Vietnam flashbacks to Princess Changeling Rainbow Magic Pants, aka P-CRaMPs from MLP:FIM fanfiction. She had the heart of a dragon... and the spleen of a griffon. She's literally the offspring of all of the major powers in the show... at the same time. She was considered a nightmarish abomination by all in-universe with characters saying they should kill her as early as chapter one. It's the only acceptable way to have a Mary Sue.
JP, you have the greatest timing when it comes to uploading these TWA videos. The first major incident is you uploaded less than a day after I had intensive spinal surgery. And now I've had a terrible day with a math test. I don't know what logic your following, but keep it up, and thank you.
I've been incubating a book for nine years now, and I think you make a good point about taking too long, but the thing is, I came up with the idea when I was just 14, and I've been developing it since then with research, inspiration, and school assignments. My plan isn't to just procrastinate-I just think that being an author isn't something that most people should consider doing as a career and I'm preparing to take a different, more stable path. Right now, I'm more focused on becoming an adult than writing a novel. Once I'm independent and financially secure, then the real work will begin. The plan is to do it as a project, not a job that I'm reliant on the unlikely success of. If I succeed-and I still think I can-then great! But if I fail, then that's okay because I'll still have a career to live off of. I'm sure that your statement was probably aimed at full-time employed middle-aged adults who have been planning on writing a novel for too long and never actually done anything, but I just felt like I should give my two cents.
@@sianais I actually do have plans to do that. I think I'll follow in Walt Disney's footsteps and rewrite Snow White first. That way, half the work is already done for me. Perfect for a beginner. Thank you for your kind words.
I love how J.P has single-handedly solved ship wars through his writing abilities at 1:51. Truly a magnificent feat. (And to think Harry potter simply had to marry Aang for it to happen.)
"throw more crap at them and the audience will sympathise harder, not start laughing at how ridiculous this is" Ah, someone's been watching Magical girl Site
One of my favorite characters is a (former) Mary Sue. She was created when I was very young and did not know how to write a good character, who I then brought back to write into a more interesting story where the other characters in her world slowly discovered was, in fact, a Sue. Before they figured it out, she was basically a deity. Everyone loved and supported her, she made friends with everyone she possibly could, and anyone who threatened anyone she liked either got convinced to knock it off after a threat from her, or got killed. After they discovered what she was, the other characters began to fear her. She reacted to the rejection by becoming progressively more unstable, and her clinginess and violent tendencies became an actual problem. This all snowballed until she LOST her Mary Sue status by no longer being the center of attention, no longer being liked or agreed with by everybody, and suddenly having all of her dormant personality flaws dredged up and shown for what they were. She's still got every single power anyone could ever want, but what makes her interesting now is how she handles relationships and her own self (and others) destructive tendencies.
So, basically, she was trying to be this "perfect golden child" like Isabelle (bel, belle or bella?) in Encanto? Like, putting up a facade of a nice popular girl, like some anime characters?
While Mary Sue is it's own problem, complaining about it is also overplayed. It kinda is just "female I don't like" but more than likely has traits with author's pet or overpowered within universe and may have nothing to do with the lead writer. Focus on making a realized character rather than perfect girl BUT has a superfluous flaw or dilemma tacked on. Part of why Rey in Star Wars is so divisive is she's not really an author's self insert just kind of bland and seated in the protagonist role. Everything going wrong for a character is just as bad as everything being picture perfect and can come off as the author just ranting, still falling into the flaw of inserting yourself rather than someone who grew organically in universe. Fan fiction is fan fiction so you can get away with a lot just to brush it off as creative writing, but when it's an original work with fresh characters I agree half the problems with an inserted Mary Sue just apply to any protagonist to a lesser degree, therefore any female protagonist is going to have some traits of "girl I don't like". Okay bad writing makes those traits worse but MS is still a blanket statement.
You joke, but this is basically what happened to fanfiction and some art communities in the early 2010's. A lot of people (especially kids) saw stuff about Mary Sues are basically the devil, so they course corrected so far backwards that they made charatcers that were souless husks.
It seems like the term ironically got watered down after people realized that you can write an entertaining OP main character (usually when they're charismatic or funny out of universe too).
If theres one thing I never understood in most OCs that try to be "cool" or "edgy" its the whole shoehorning of trauma after trauma. Its not realistic in the slightest, just, happens with no explanation and somehow people expect that to make their character better than others
oh sweet summer child, still so full of innocence towards a world that shits out individuals whose autobiographies would make a misery porn author shudder
@@hi-i-am-atan Oh fuck no, even I did it. But once I realized how stupid it was, on top of having some experiences myself, kinda realized that theres a ton of nuance to trauma than just "Thing happened, now sad". The constant need for pity points is friggen draining
Lol I wrote a character who had an absurd amount of tragic things happen to him in his past and was generally unlucky, but I made him super sweet, innocent and naively positive to contrast it in a way that was funny & sad. He was supposed to be like a cross between Kieran from RDR2 and Butters from South Park.
One of the those terms that started out valid and then became as weak and overused as the very thing it called out, joining the Sue instead of destroying it. Reactionary overcompensation in the other direction isn't as prevalent but I'm sure it can happen, especially the blandness thing where we're afraid to give a character any meaningful traits due to associated connotations and stereotypes ('character likes fashionable clothes so they must be a vapid airhead obsessed with looks!') so they just end up vacant.
I absolutely love this. Mary Sue was the first video, so it's beautiful to see it all come full circle with terrible writing advice on how not to write a sue
I cannot thank you enough for this perfect summary of all my insecurities when it comes to storytelling. It's so nice and important to see how many people were going through similar things. I hope you know how much your silly little videos have helped me and probably many other viewers to overcome their overly perfectionist creative self-restriction.
This topic was also covered by Just a Robot, Critical Drinker and Jay-Exci made a 5 hour video about a group of them but dont worry about that huge videolength, i assure its not a problem.
@@loturzelrestaurant i don't know if critical drinker is the best guy to watch if you want to become a better writer most of the videos i have seen of him seem shallow and not understanding what shows try to show without telling what is going on.
How Isekai fans talk about Isekai: "Oh, another trash Isekai." "Man this episode is so bad." "Absolutely disgusting." "The Worst." "That makes no sense." The same people five seconds later: "Well see you guys next week to watch the new episode." "See you then." "Bye." "Man, I can't wait."
Great video. It's becoming increasingly rare to encounter independent thinkers these days who challenge the parroting inside of echo chambers. The term 'Mary Sue' is thrown around so much anymore it has blurred the line between a well written character and what a Mary Sue actually is. A writer can't just make a female protagonist unattractive, excessively flawed, and hit by every branch from the misfortune tree from one page to the next to escape the label. Then you just have an anti-Mary Sue instead of a good, well-written character. I like the bit about it's ok to be a bad writer. Being a bad writer doesn't mean you don't have a good story to tell. It's ok to make a female character attractive, liked, and powerful. But there has to be context and contrast. A reader is more likely to empathize with your MC if she tries and fails. When there are true consequences for her failure. And having to grow as a character in order to finally reach her goal. IOW. In order for the character to grow (not be a MS), they must persevere past the consequences that has resulted from their failures.
Unironic Advice: To be a Mary Sue, a character must have at least 2 out of 3 attributes: ✅️: They never fail at anything, and no obstacle is not beaten through minimal effort. ✅️: Almoat all of the narrative focuses on him or her ✅️: Every good character always agrees with and likes him or her
✔️ everyone will tell you that they are the greatest person you'll ever meet, but the story will never try to convince you _why_ or _how_ - if it does, then it is sloppy at best
Now I'm desperate to write a Mary Sue. Reverse psychology absolutely nailed me this time. As long as the rest of the characters stay in character mostly and the plot is interesting it'll be fine.
I feel like part of the mary sue issue is that all other character agency in the story goes down the toilet in the face of the flawless human plot-sucking void. They learn nothing if this void consumes their personal issues.
Here are some ideas! The rest of the characters realize that the Sue is controlling their every action and have to deal with it as best they can. Do some of them ally with her willingly just because they have no choice? Do some of them try to resist? Do some of them reserve judgment until they can find out whether the Sue is benevolent or not? Speaking of which, do you have a benevolent Sue or a malevolent Sue? By that I mean, does the Sue generally brighten the lives of those associated with them, or do chaos and tragedy and strife appear in their every footstep? If the former, many characters might go to the Sue's side just to enjoy convenience. Characters with targic backstories might be very grateful to the Sue for granting them a respite from drama. A malevolent Sue, on the other hand, might be very popular with characters that love action and seek opportunities for glory. Characters that have their own malevolent motivations might also seek a way to deploy the Sue as a weapon in their own evil plans. For that matter, even a benevolent Sue might be weaponized with the hope of pacifying enemies into inaction... And that's BEFORE you account for how the Sue feels. Disclaimer: this character would not be a true Mary Sue, but rather a parody of them. A genuine Sue is defined by having negative impacts on the story. If you find a way to take Sueish traits and make them interesting in a way that supports a story, then you have not created a genuine Sue, but rather a parody Sue or a deconstructed Sue. Nothing wrong with this! Just be aware that a character that does not ruin the story truthfully isn't a Mary Sue, but at best a relative of such. A Janet Sue? An Alice Sue? Hmm...
Funnily enough, this video seems like what Marvel Comics have done to the character of Spider-Man (Peter Parker) all these years. Making him suffer for the sake of making him suffer, not for character development.
Wouldn't a truly perfect writer not even have to worry about writing a Mary Sue, because the writer is just that perfect in every way that everyone will always love what the writer does? (great vid, btw)
3:56, this one seems to be a common pitfall for Spider-Man comic writers. Can’t he just find happiness without his character development being regressed?
@@emblemblade9245 current spider man comic writers just basically write torture and misery P4N in all but name. Sad if otherwise really Inevitable due to Marvel’s long term ensh8ification.
I want to write an antagonist based on the Mary Sue. Imagine, an alluring, insanely powerful witch who uses her eldritch abilities to bend reality around her. She laces her voice and appearance with dark, hypnotic magic that causes those around her to obsess over her, even beyond the point of self-preservation, like a siren song luring hapless sailors to their doom. Her goal is to use her magic to become queen-goddess over all the universe and have even the most powerful among mankind at her beck and call. The only way to defeat her is to kill her, but how can one do that when her face, her voice, even her scent, weaves a spell that can ensnare even the most powerful of wills? Beware the elder witch Mary Sue. Do not come too close, lest you join her throng of worshippers for all eternity…
7:44 I like how Beaubien points out that being overpowered and a very idealized, focused individual isn't what makes a Mary Sue, just by bringing up Superman. And he has a point. If that's the case, then all these deity-like characters would be Mary Sues. The traits Beaubien brings up work with Superman because those traits add to Superman's character, as Superman is meant to be an inspiring paragon.
J.P. is growing in both method and madness! Seriously though,, having followed this channel since its inception, I can tell how refined J.P.'s knowledge of the craft has grown. Editing, scripting, visuals, content, my you have come a long way. This could be the best writing advice channel on TH-cam. Sir, I salute you.
@@orwellianwiress well, let's see... doesn't struggle with anything, parts of the plot revolve around her, almost completely flawless... She's very close to a Mary Sue, particularly in the movies. Potter, meanwhile, makes several massive errors that he's punished for (Sirius's death as one example), has a multitude of flaws, and is only plot important because the villain forces him to be. One of these characters is a lot more Sue than the other. Not to say Hermione actually is one, she lacks the plot black hole effect and doesn't have everyone fawning over her every move (she receives a lot of pushback from sympathetic characters over the house elf thing, as an example). Now, a good example of a Mary Sue is live action Mulan. A good example of a Marty Sue is probably Commander Shepard or Doom Slayer, which should tell you one thing: if everything around the Sue is fun, well written, and interesting... they aren't actually a bad thing to use. A Sue can be interesting *because* they can act as shining paragons. Superman, Wonder Woman, and Flash are perfect example of it along with a *shitload* of video game main characters. Execution is important.
4:08 I like that chain of bad things happening to the NMS, because, if your coffee catches fire, there is probably a crapload of alcohol in it. ... Which recontextualizes why the car wasn't paid off, why the dog wasn't let in, and -- rather disturbingly -- why Gram-Gram fell down those stairs.
"I mean, the story bends over backwards to make sure all her _monumental_ screwups don't matter while all the characters just.. forgive her for some reason" Wandavision summarized in a single sentence, I think.
Except that Wanda had her vulnerable moments. She’s definitely not a Mary Sue. She’s more in the “Protagonist-biased morality” aka “It’s okay when we do it” trope.
@@nont18411 It's pretty amusing to me how you don't see the irony in your reply, when this video is literally solely dedicated to making fun of that very "[X character] can't be a Mary Sue because [insert trait they lack here]" line of reasoning.
8:25 = I encountered this so many times when I discovered fanfiction in the early 2000s. All I wanted was to read more stuff outside of the movies about my favorite characters; but half to two-thirds of the stories I found, would self-insert a character/OC then mess up the whole dynamic.
Fanfics are a classic needle-in-a-haystack situation. You know there are real gems waiting to be found, but you have to dig half-blind through tons of bland and terrible stuff to reach them.
5:44 Reminds me of Chivalry of a failed Knight, where the protagonist has a magical power that seems so situational and weak, so he's honed his body and mind to MAKE it work and become a swordsman that's able to duel with master magic users.
Ah, multiverses. AKA "Lets start being creative with our characters and make them go through interesting character arcs and scenarios...before deciding 'screw it' and killing them all off because hey, this isn't the MAIN universe!"
This topic was also covered by Just a Robot and Jay-Exci made a 5 hour video about a group of them but dont worry about that huge videolength, i assure its not a problem.
A quote that will always stick with me about the Mary Sue Species: "A Mary Sue is a character who, for no comedic reason, the rules of the franchise's universe do not apply to them."
9:43 it’s been two years since I’ve started my journey, you’re right. Thanks for keeping it real brother. As someone who’s doing school full time and work 30 hours a week though, I gotta be easy on myself though.
I hope to get a "J. P. Contradictions Compilation" at some point. Just all the times JP said something that contradicted something else he said. Considering the Whole Premise of the show I'd not be shocked if J. P. himself released it. I wonder how many different thing character and/or story are beholden to.
I really appreciate the message at the end. I don't feel like i suffer from either end of the marry sue extreme, but I'll get ideas that i put my heart and soul into and worry myself so much i drop it out of stress rather than put out something that may be imperfect but will help me grow
Something that was said on a site complaining about bad roleplayers has stuck with me, and this video reminded me of it: The fear of the Mary Sue is often worse than any Mary Sue.
Oh I remember when internet writing communities were obsessed with not making Mary Sues to the point that nowadays I struggle with given a character more than _two_ strong skills. These days I think it does more harm than good? Personally my struggle isn't so much being a bad writer, though it is definitely that, but also not doing the story in my head justice.
Seriously, could you please put the "It's okay to be a bad writer. Keep writing and make an honest effort to improve. Eventually you wont be a bad anymore." on a shirt. I would wear it for my class. Or would that be too off brand for you to put in your shop.
i find it amazing how there's a story out there for virtually every individual mary sue trait but done correctly. almost like when you make a story with believable characters that interact with their world it actually can turn out well. even the anti-traits JP mentioned. magicless character in a setting of the best magic users? black clover and mashle. they even have opposite atmospheres on the matter, as mashle is basically a comedy where mash being overpowered despite no magic is the entire point, while black clover is a story about working hard to achieve your goals and figuring out how to do it with your specific hand. "being different" is also a sueish trait in that regard, but they both make it work for the world the characters live in. black clover even has what would basically be a textbook mary sue on the surface in yuno, but despite all of his abilities and overwhelming strength, he still has to earn respect from many of his colleagues due to his peasant origins, and never looks down at asta despite asta usually lagging behind him, instead working even harder to make sure asta doesnt catch up.
I think the issue with bad things constantly happening to the Not Mary Sue is that ultimately, luck is just an extension of one's willingness to come prepared. It's hard to sympathize with a Not Mary Sue when bandits kidnap her mid-route as she makes her way to another town when she could have hired bodyguards to protect her, avoided going along that route knowing bandits patrol there, or at the very least have acknowledged that this was a risk that she'd have to take because of the urgency of the plot.
Hey Terrible Writing Advice I don’t know if you’re reading this but I want to say thank you. You’re super sarcastic way of teaching how to write is super entertaining and this video for sure helped me realize what I really want to do with writing. Instead of writing for making a story, I just wanted self-validation. Thank you for helping me realize that (even though that’s probably super obvious). So now, instead of writing for that, I think I’ll stick to writing but never posting it. Again, thank you so much! You’re the best!
Funnily enough, I am currently working on a grimdark/ dark fantasy novel at the moment, which features a female anti heroine, so this video is very well timed My protagonist is essentially a female Cloud Strife but who's young child self looks like young Jill Warrick from the recent Final Fantasy XVI Tne narrative is a failed redemption arc which results in a negative character arc where she goes from an innocent young girl to a ruthless self serving anti heroine to a villain protagonist (caused by her crossing the despair event horizon) by the end of the novel
Independent of your story, I have realized that even now seeing "female Cloud Strife" still just makes me think of Lightning from _FFXIII_ and how poorly she and the rest of that game were written. This even though Lightning *isn't* a Mary Sue...at least in that game. I heard that last game gets kind of...indulgent with her in a creepy _Other M_ "this character is my perfect woman" type of way. Ugh. Anyway, good luck with the writing.
Going full villain at the end is a big jump to end with. What’s the purpose or theme of ending it that way? (Not criticizing I just like hearing about creative processes)
@@emblemblade9245 Sometimes it's just being stuck in the moral gray areas that can slowly crush your soul and make you give up on your humanity. Often the themes of grimdark are best described by the joker quote "die a hero or live long enough to become a villain". In Cyberpunk, a big theme is that no matter how hard you fight the system, you will always lose because the system is so much bigger than an individual can take down. you get squashed like a bug or become part of the very thing you fought against. Of course, this is why I personally hate grimdark. Because if I wanted to lose my faith in humanity I'd just scroll twitter. Some people love it because it encourages hope of the human spirit to rebel and be good in the face of overwhelming oppression.
@@shanedsouza189 It's not pointlessly grimdark all the time, there are hopespots in the story at times, especially with my protagonist's childhood friend/love interest (think of them as a Steve Rodgers type character, a paragon of good if you will that starkly contrasts the bleak setting). This makes the heavy moments more impactful
I jumped right into publishing knowing my first few books would be terrible and yet people still read them. In 4 years I published 32 books and my first terrible one is still my most read.
6:06 I did actually read a couple stories about non magical people in magical worlds. Can be very interesting to explore the struggles of the main character trying to prove his value. But that would require writing a smart, intelligent character, wich often requires the author to think. So not posible to actually achieve.
I actually wrote a novel (or rather, the first draft of one) like that for my high school senior project. It wasn't perfect, but it had potential. If I can just find the draft, I can rewrite it. Thanks for uncovering that memory.
Wow. This is almost eerily convenient because I am curranty writing a chapter of a story of mine and looking at this video, i was DEFINITLY too focused on not making him a Mary Sue rather than simply focusing on simply having fun with it. You, sir, are the man. And thank you.
I’ve more or less come to tune out discussions where the term “Mary Sue” is used. Once upon a time, the term served a purpose, but now it’s been hijacked by all the worst people who have decided it means “There’s a female lead character who doesn’t exist primarily as fetish material in mah movie.” The label seems to be thrown a disproportionate amount at female characters. Because while it’s okay for men to have endless power fantasies marketed to them, for some reason, women aren’t allowed to have anything. Men can have their John Wicks and James Bonds, but whenever there’s a female lead, suddenly they’re deeply concerned about the realism of their movies, start combing through scenes to make sure it’s “realistic” for the female character to be able to do this.
Yup, exactly. Mary sue was never really good faith to begin with and was destined to be horrid, this is the only realistic path a term like that can take in a world we live in.
@@yungmuney5903This is not true. The term was hijacked by imbeciles, but Mary Sue and Gary Stu were useful terms to describe shallow characters with no conflicts nor goals because they had everything solved already. And we can (and must) retake that old meaning.
i love the concept of something that purposely says wrong things to mock flawed thinking, but also sneaks in actual good advise in the midst like how you can give characters flaws that correlate their pros, like how a brave character could be arrogant, or an honest character could be unintentionally rude this little channel is neat, keep it up!!!
I feel like people are forgetting that a Mary Sue is just ONE bad way to write a character and is not an umbrella term for everything that can be wrong with a character. To throw some additional comments on top of this: -Character flaws are good WHEN you remember to have redeeming characteristics that juxtopose them in a way that ADDS to the character. For example, how you might be decent at math or science in school and maybe you've been typecasted as an "idiot", but you are actually very talented when it comes to english and history and most people just don't know that about you. You now have LAYERS to you that show just because you aren't extremely talented on one thing doesn't mean you're not talented at another. You have your place in the world. Compare that to a Mary Sue who just excel at all subjects WITHOUT having a crippled social life, sleep schedule, and time for hobbies; all the virtues of being the straight A student with none of the downsides. If we're talking Disney's recent string of super-genius teenage girls, notice how they're all uppedity go-getters instead of, say, a quiet and misunderstood shut-in that isn't good at expressing themselves but have an endearing trait like a lack of confidence or is just naturally quiet until someone prompts them with conversation, something to play with that makes them feel like an actual human being who had to sacrifice certain things for their academics. -Characters who are perfect all of the time aren't very engaging. Usually, the most compelling characters, no matter how simple, are fun and interesting BECAUSE of their simplicity and/or acknowledgment of their limited world view. Take a character like Doomguy who only really cares about killing demons. That is his one thing; he isn't out to sage the universe, to prove the badguy wrong or win some deep philosophical conversation on the meaning of life, he just REALLY hates demons to such an extent that he massacred the underworld, TWICE, all because they killed his rabbit, a rabbit which sharply undercuts any initial misconceptions one might have about him being an edgelord and adds a humorous tongue-in-cheek flavor to his character. Or take Lae'zel from Baldur's Gate 3. Personality wise she has all of the traits of a Mary Sue; abrasive, masculine, cold, devoid of humor, hero complex. It's all there... Except she's vulnerable, and as the game goes on it becomes clear she's just a headstrong acolyte to her cause and as it goes on she outright tells you past a certain point that her Githyanki code and ethics were once her whole world, but the adventure has shown her how ignorant she was and how much she likes the world outside of the war cult she has been trapped in. She was never a Mary Sue, just an naive albeit aggressively loyal soldier. -The typical traits of a Mary Sue CAN work... As a villain. This is why Superman (sometimes) works as a villain, where you get to aee both the peak of his humanity before it becomes twisted and confused during the Injustice comics/movies in which the koss of Louise and his unborn child turns him into a genuine monster so hellbent on controlling the world just so he doesn't have to fear it any longer. This is a generally good skeleton for a villain story; have them be an icon amongst their own before having a "kick-off" point where their good traits get turned inwards on themselves and their capacity for evil is shown. Or maybe not evil at all, maybe they are only an antagonist through circumstance and it is a tragic turn of events where no one is necessarily doing the wrong thing but people are trapped in their current path, like a man with a family who will be killed if he does not let a bomb go off killing a bunch of OTHER innocent people. -If "Every character is a Mary Sue", none of them are. "Mary Sue" is a term used to describe an outlier, if every character is uber powerful and given loads of attention and importance to the plot, that character isn't a Mary Sue. Rey Skywalker, for example, is a Mary Sue because she simultaneously has the least experience, training and relevance to ANYTHING going on at any given moment in the newer movies, yet at the same time she somehow fights better, knows other people's trades better and can resolve issues better than anyone else all while not having to go on any actual character journey or path to self improvement typical and expected of any hero. The Justice League, however, does not have any real Mary Sue and that is because not only does each character have their own unique super powers, but if one turns on the other members for any given reason, the plot becomes about stopping them and leveraging either power flaws or personality flaws to the hero's advantage.
3:00 I am so glad you brought this up JP. I've been reading a certain YA novel series over the past couple months and they have (among _significant other problems_) that issue. It's a Hunger Games copycat. Which, you know, fine. Hungy James was good, if you're going to take heavy inspiration from something take it from something good. So you have the main protagonist, we'll call her Protag Honest. And she needs to be able to handle the spaaaace death games to be one of the lucky few chosen to be rescued from Earth before it's hit by an asteroid. Fighting every other teen on the planet for one of the few spots in a deadly battle royal not seen since hit film The Battle Royal. So the problem is that she's a completely out of shape self-titled nerd/geek/dork who's incredibly socially awkward and only good at book smarts. She constantly puts her foot in her mouth, is absolutely not in the kind of physical shape necessary for serious intensive physical labor and exertion, is easily intimidated and bullied, and just an all around _loser._ I don't know if it was intentional or not, but it comes across to me as the author being so afraid of little Protag Honest being perceived as a Mary Sue that she made her a total wreck. Which just makes it seem _even more absurd and OP_ when she nonetheless succeeds at the spaaaace death games, getting into shape in an infeasibly short amount of time while also somehow managing to become a leader figure among other contestants despite having the charisma of a, well, of an actual socially awkward, probably-on-the-spectrum 16 year old girl. Just giving your character flaws doesn't automatically mean they're not Mary Sues. And even if they're not, it doesn't mean they're well written, compelling characters that the audience will root for. Good writing is so much more complex and challenging than just following one or two hard rules that ensure success. It requires an understanding of what makes a character compelling, of what nuance and balance. Good writing is *difficult!*
''somehow managing to become a leader figure among other contestants'' That's funny considering that Katniss had no charisma or leadership skills and was able to win over the audience and thereby the game because of Peeta saying he's in love with her, her survival and archery skills, and a lot of luck.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 Katnip won over the _audience._ Protag Honest in the series I'm criticizing wins over _other contestants._ And does it with words rather than actions half the time. The time that it's with actions, it's stuff that anyone would think to do but the book makes out to be incredible leaps of logic that only a very smart person would have thought of, cementing her status as A Smart Nerd Girl. I've literally said out loud what the obvious solution is to problems that have come up, only for the book to have Honest do that very thing and be heaped with praise for her incredible inventiveness and out of the box thinking. The series has a *lot* of problems, Mary Sue main character is just one of them.
man yeah the Superman thing really drives the point home. Mary Sues (actual Mary Sues, not "female characters the fans don't like") are annoying because the story bends over backwards to make things work out for them, not because they're overpowered. They're just boring to a frustrating degree because the rest of the story and characters seems hell-bent on Telling Not Showing you that they're akshually the coolest most bestest evar! I like the power fantasy, I like protags who are hyper-competent, I like seeing attractive characters thirst over other attractive characters... I don't like when they win by default. The OG Mary Sue was indeed a self-insert in a Star Trek fanfic, she was super sexy and more competent than the main cast despite being a new recruit and everyone wanted to bang her. It was self-indulgent fluff but, while kinda cringe, nothing egregious for fanfic. Things just kinda snowballed, as is fandom's wont.
Thank you for this. I tried to avoid writing a mary sue and my character ended up having the exact same description as the example in the video. Keep up the good work.
This is the first big name youtuber I've seen address functions of flaws and their dynamic with character strenghts rather than go simply "character must have flaws to be good!!!". I swear a lot of "character analysis" nowadays is just a flaw checklist.
My god I really needed this episode! This should have been like, THE FIRST EPISODE. But man, the most important things you learn about righting come when you least expected them!
This was such a reality check for me. For the past few years, I've been sharing almost all of my writing with my boyfriend, and I've started focusing on making characters and plots that *he'll* like instead of writing ones that I like, when the ones that I write just for fun are the ones he likes the most in the first place
I once read an MLP fanfic where the author seemed to be trying to do this for his "Human in Equestria" OC. Throughout the story, he constantly takes the piss out of the "illogical" nature of beginning and end of season villain plots, becomes an insanely rich author by adapting Star Wars, marries Princess Luna, stops the changeling invasion (leading to a "better" outcome which opens negotiations with changelings), learns and instantly rejects dark magic (not for moral reasons, but because it apparently wasn't a significant upgrade), solves Equestria Girls in less than 5 minutes (leading to a "better" outcome where Sunset returns to Equestria), straight up KILLS Tirek, becomes a national hero, ascends to become an Alicorn prince, and generally solves most of the canon plots through pragmatic means without anything like "conflict" or "friendship". But it's okay! Because he doesn't WANT to be an alicorn or prince, and uses magic to hide his wings! And he's not all-powerful because his alicorn powers are only strong in the dream world! And he often loses petty competitions that have no actual bearing on anything important. And the other characters rib on him, occasionally. That should hopefully distract you from the fact that he essentially draws the entire plot around him like a black hole, is never really portrayed as being wrong or making any significant mistake, and is never called out for his cynical pragmatism in a story about friendship and understanding, nor do his actions have ANY negative consequences for deviating from canon. He once considered turning a baby to stone as, "an option".
"So naturally, the best way to avoid writing a Mary Sue is to make every single thing in the story go wrong for them"
Oh how I do love fiction that reads like a case study of Murphy's Law.
O'Toole's Commentary: "Murphy was an optimist."
suzaku from Code Geass is the best example of this. He is unlikable and extremely skilled person but nothing go right for him and everybody hate him. I pity him but also hating him for being a such a hypocrite.
@@TinNguyen-sw8uc I like Suzaku, because he has a set of principles.
Lol, the fact that there are people who claim that annakin is a Mary sue, shows that it's not true.
Lol, the fact that there are people who claim that annakin is a Mary sue, shows that it's not true.
The most handsomest and successful author has once again blessed us with a fraction of his cosmic knowledge
PRAISE HIM!
Praise lord JP! He's definitely not a Mary sue
Fr
Don't forget the most humble
Calling it a fraction is an insult to his infinite knowledge
This is a mere grain of knowledge in the endless constellation of correct ideas and universal knowledge
Y'know NotSue seems like she should get a handheld camera with an unrealistically long battery life and just refuse to turn it off.
But then you get Cloverfield where giant monster attacks are intercut with _equally_ interesting relationship drama.
Miles Upshure has entered the chat
And with this plan in mind, she gets home after making a purchase with her new Samsung Galaxy S7 with an all new super battery with x10 the power! soon she will have all the footage to prove how everything goes wrong!
Q
OH NO THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT
Remember kids : Your character is automatically not a Mary Sue if they're slightly clumsy, that's how you know they have flaws! Sure it's a single one but hey, it's a flaw, meaning that you can deflect any criticism about them having none.
Failing and getting captured means your Mary Sue is free to gain new powers and rescue herself!
Meeting new people is when your Mary Sue should show she's better than the character who's triple her age at the old character's job!
@@hariman7727 ...This topic was also covered by Just a Robot, Critical Drinker and Jay-Exci made a 5 hour ideo
about a group of them but dont worry
about that huge videolength, i assure its not a problem.
@@loturzelrestaurant What is the title of the video and what channel is it on?
@@loturzelrestaurant critical drinker yells mary sue way to fast.
Thats not what a Mary Sue is. It doesn't mean they have 0 flaws, but that their flaws have no baring on the story nor any negative effect on them or the plot. If your character being clumsy never matters in the story then they'd still be a Mary Sue
“It’s okay to be a bad writer” 12:11
Best writing advice ever. Must have been a mistake. Catch you at the next Nanowrimo my fellow bad writers.
9:33 this reminds me of the video game Yandere Simulator and it's infamous developer
“But… but that’s settling for mediocrity! Only the best, or bust! Always chase excellence…!” 😂
On a more serious note, yes, for us amateurs and hobby writers, it’s totally okay. As Ral Zarek said in Magic: The Gathering, “Good ideas don’t take time; they take a lot of bad ideas first.” What’s more frustrating is seeing writers with the same or lower level of “talent” somehow failing their way to the top, getting recruited for these corporate mega-projects of ruining established franchises, by essentially doing the same that a lot of the amateur hobby writers are doing: Writing fan fiction. With all of the features fan fiction tends to have. Such as Mary Sues.
just remember to not remain.
Just remove the word writer, and it's probably the most important advice anyone trying something new can get. You're not going to start perfect, or even good, but that's fine. "It's okay to be a bad."
Okay, so you have to remove the "a" as well...
:fistbump:
The idea of a story where literally EVERY character is a mary sue does genuinely intrigue me
Reminds me of the old days roleplaying on forums where EVERYONE'S characters were over-the-top colorful magical powerful beautiful people with wings, cool hair and a tragic past 😂. Good times... we had fun.
That sounds cool! If everyone is flawless and special and cool, are they still mary sues?
Just roleplay in a roleplay roblox games.
Zoolander
Dystopian society moment
I love the natural evolution of this channel from parodying the writing of people who don't know better to parodying the writing of people who are obsessed with *seeming* like they know better. Can't stand how genuinely helpful critique concepts get hijacked by both critics and writers until the writers are overcompensating at the expense of their story.
This topic was also covered by Just a Robot, Critical Drinker and Jay-Exci made a 5 hour ideo
about a group of them but dont worry
about that huge videolength, i assure its not a problem.
!!
"SHOW DON'T TELL."
"YOU NEED TO HAVE A HOOK."
None of this is wrong, but I'll hear it applied wrong.
A hook doesn't need to be an action scene, it is just anything that catches a readers attention.
Show don't tell can lead to too much showing which drags a story on.
Sometimes it is fine to just tell, so long as it fits in the story.
"Somehow, Palpatine has returned, and also he has a giant fleet of star destroyers, and each of them has a death star laser, and also he sent a message out to the entire universe."
The last part there is especially egregious, because technically it was shown... in Fortnite.
@@ImTakingYouToFlavorTown You had me at the fortnite 😂
@@ImTakingYouToFlavorTownThat hook part reminds me of this Reddit post where a friend of OP was writing a fanfic, and OP told them to just put something interesting in there, and so they put "(Character) puked on his chair."
And then they forgot to change it before publishing the fic.
Still, that'll catch even a tiktok addicted 6-year-old's attention.
@@ImTakingYouToFlavorTownyeah show don't tell is told to someone that tells too much (I forgot dumps). But people took it too literally (show never tell)
Mary Sue as a villain would be truly horrifying. Imaging slowly discovering that you are practically a slave to this extremely powerful person, everyone and everything seems to revolve around her, nobody can talk about anything without it inevitably coming back to her. I don't even know what you could do about it because she also has plot armor!
edit: I can't believe it took me this long to realize this, but I basically described The Count of Monte Cristo, I will never live this down it's basically half my personality at this point! (I've even made a video about adaptations of it and plan on making more videos. Yes this is a shameless plug I learned from the best, Subscribe to Technoblade!)
But yeah, the universe loves this guy it takes four guys with their own reasons to dislike him in order to bring him down and then he comes back richer and more powerful than all of them put together. and when he does come back he is all they can talk about and the world still revolves around him. It's not even a supernatural story!
You just gave me an idea of a literal deity living in their own story and having to build the world and people as they travel!
Isn't that just the monotheistic God in a nutshell?
If you've heard of the SCP Foundation, this is essentially the plot of the LOLFoundation canon: All the old senior staff self-insert characters back in the old days of the site are reimagined as reality-warping monsters that bend the universe to their whims.
Every reincarnated as a villainess manga ever
@@gabrieldoyen692Profile pic checks out.
Thinking about it, everyone being Mary Sues partially addresses the issues normally caused by having a Mary Sue. A character being one is strongly determined by how their character relates to and interacts with the setting, situations, and other characters. So making everyone overblown, while silly, might actually be less frustrating as it makes the character less of a Mary Sue.
"And if everyone's super... No one is."
That's just a fighting game
Yeah, how powerful a character actually is in a setting is usually relative unless the powers they possess are so absurdly overpowered that even a babbling idiot or literal infant would be able to kill God by actively using them. Mary Sues | Gary Stus are often such centralizing characters for their respective settings even if their own level of overall power is not at the top of that of the setting due to tending both to trounce every challenge for one reason or another *and* utterly warp the plot around them while doing so.
Having a bunch of characters with relatively absurdly strong powers is more than fine if that's just the nature of the setting, e.g. a large amount of superhero settings and of shonen. Doesn't mean those settings automatically avoid their own (usually male) Mary Sue characters though since plot-warping doesn't need you to be the absolute actual strongest. Sometimes it even benefits from you being the relatively weakest.*cough*Batman*cough*
Reminds of a quote that went something like this: "What makes a Mary Sue isn't her rainbow hair, technicolor eyes, or magic superpowers. It's how she takes the plot, bends it over, and fucks it in the ass."
Did somebody say Warhammer?
Now i want to see an episode on Tropeboarding, AKA "criticizing" a story by the PRESENCE of tropes, rather than their EXECUTION
The only trope I criticize like that is "Your religion is a hollow lie and your monotheistic God is actually satanhitlerstalinvoneeeeeevil"... because EVERYONE thinks they're creative in doing it, and everyone does it in the exact same obvious and trite way, barring VERY few exceptions.
Yes! Trope boarding is a complicated topic, but it surely does deserve a video from TWA.
He did an honest thoughts video about tropes, and in it he covered the topic, so I don't think he is going to feel the need to cover it in a TWA episode.
holy shit this actually makes a lot of sense, and why a lot of media discussion is so superfluous.
Ding!
The Internet has me believe a Mary Sue is just a character I don’t like, but don’t want to just go out and say it.
When I am writing, I am not thinking about if my character is a Mary Sue or not
yeah mainly female main characters.
@@Memento_Mori3210 Exactly, assuming that wasn't sarcastic
That’s an overgeneralization of what people claim a Mary Sue is because they disagree with said character being called such.
That's only the definition used by people who want to deflect from Ma-rey Sues.
The best advice on character writing I've ever gotten is
_"Don't worry about if you're writing a Mary Sue or not, just write a character"_
Take a character, give them some quirks, and you'll probably be fine. Don't fuss over arbitrary definitions. There are no rules when it comes to writing.
Except grammar and spelling. Those are rules you have to follow.
To be fair, Yoda breaks the rules of grammar on the regular, and a major reason why _Flowers for Algernon_ hits the way it does is because of the narrator's ability to spell paralleling their mental state. _All_ rules can be broken if you have a really, really good reason. Just not all at once.
There is an author that straight up doesn't use quotes because they find it unnecessary
huckelberry finn
Nwo, My thwink don't will me.
Eye doant need to nawt lissin two yew
"A writer can't just go ahead and write indulgent crap to get it out of their system. Never should a writer accept that it's okay to be bad." The essential step that every writing advice channel loves to just gloss over for some reason.
I wrote so much garbage, it's insane. Basically re-writing Jurassic Park, but the premise wasn't the ethics in science, but... enviromentalism? I also wrote science fiction, although i normaly don't like this genre. The worst of the worst: I had a folder where i collected every "funny situation" or "tough comment" i encountered, mostly from The Simpsons. I am pretty sure somebody at Marvel found this folder and i am the sole reason "Marvel-like humor" is now a popular and negative trope.
@@valentinmitterbauer4196 Marvel found it 😂
Tbh tho, I'm really glad for you. I've spent so much time paralyzed by my fear of being disappointed with my work that I rarely really write anything.
@@abbierose2278 What helped me with overcoming my fear from bad writing is: There are millions of dreadful books selling like sliced bread. You are at no risk to write "too bad" to be a accomplished author.
@@valentinmitterbauer4196Jurassic park but the focus is on environmentalism? Don’t you mean most of the Jurassic park/world movies? Seriously, the dinosaurs should have been eradicated they would be the worst invasive species in history
@@abbierose2278 Remember that even if YOU feel it's trashy... Well, comfort food is a thing. And comfort fics are a thing.
I know that some of the bad stuff I wrote was somehow really well-liked even if I feel like I should personally apologize for inflicting that on all the people who commented on my fics.
Also: you will ALWAYS gain perspective and judge old works by your current standards, which is unfair because you weren't born with all of what you learned beamed into your brain retroactively, so don't judge your old works by your current standards, it's unfair to yourself. (But do go ham on rewriting it, if that's what you want to do, rewrites can be glorious, as can recycling the good parts of a bad story.)
Also it's okay to write self-indulgent fics (or to spite-write a trope because you got personally offended, like I recently wrote straight omegaverse because I was that insulted that I thought "even I can write better than these guys and I'm crap at it!", and then I showed it at my friends for fun and... well the ace thought my spitefic was hot, which was the weirdest sense of accomplishment I ever got.)
TL;DR: dare to write, even if it never leaves your hard drive's homework folder.
"Then a bunch of flaws are even better! Just keep lumping on all kinds of character flaws until the character collapses under the weight of them!!"
I see JP has watched Velma
The humbling "It's okay to be bad, you can write better later" is something that might need to be posted on my wall.
Tbh, you should do a video on how to write characters with disabilities, mental illnesses, etc. That would definitely be an interesting one.
yeah. especially like the one where they write the autism as infant/man child who insufferable smart. it even better to make them have no empathy and be asshole. got love that more a plot decided for the neurotypical rather then them being their own character. also have to spread those harmful ways to deal with meltdowns/overstimulation.
@@starmaker75 What about a video on LGBTQ+ characters
@@unicorntomboy9736 heck yeah, let us learn how to write definitely not harmful stereotypes on everyone!!!
@@Thejellopersonssomthing I mention it because the Netflix TV series Heartstoppers is one of the best written LGBTQ themed shows around right now. It writes numerous kinds of queer characters and explores queer topics and issues in a sensitive, respectful and nuanced manner. Overall it is the current gold standard on how to write LGBTQ characters well
It is aimed at a teen audience so it is harder to relate to as much if you're in your 20s/30s and older but it's still fantastic nonthless
@@unicorntomboy9736 Oh yeah, I’ve heard heartstopper was pretty good. I could never get the motivation to start a new show/book though.
Kinda wanna write a story where the main character does nothing but still gets involved in all of the action, then it's later revealed that she has reality warping abilities and that she's causing these things to happen around her
Edit: apparently this comment blew up and I just realized now. Thank you all for the recommendations!
Oh that's a really fun idea!
You mean write Haruhi Suzumiya fanfics?
Do it! Write it! :o
Ensign Sue Must Die
A reality-warping eldritch horror that looks like a pretty but normal girl. She does nothing but travels. Her being around anything that exists warps it.
9:07 I'm not entirely sure why, but the image of Tolkien beating JC senseless with his pipe is both utterly hilarious and strangely cathartic somehow.
JR Tolkien surely talked about writing a story without any really badly written characters whatsoever.
The real reason most if his work went unpublished is that he was too busy putting all of his time and energy into harrasing and attacking less experienced writers. Look it up. It's science.
@@LakesideTrey sordid but accurate Tolkien.
@@LakesideTreyi'm pretty sure tolkien was never a scientist though
It's also a running joke in some of JP's previous videos. In his video on Deconstruction, he talks about how he'll "prove" that he's smarter than Tolkien, and accompanies this with an image of him threatening to take his lunch money. In his Media Literacy video, we see his response, something like "Take all the lunch money you want, but say 'allegory' one more time and I'll bury you so deep not even the Dwarves will be able to find you!" Here, we see that JP hasn't exactly heeded Tolkien's warning.
Do “How to write a morally grey character” next.
It's jerk, villain, useless or gonna be redeemed soon, there's no middle ground
Making a sympathetic villain protagonist by giving them a tragic past of being constantly abused which, unintentionally to the writers, as the story progressed, it backfired as the abuser’s behaviors became more and more justified because the protagonist became too evil that in the end of the story, the audience will side with the abuser and consider them to be “right all along” for abusing the protagonist.
Prime example: Chuck McGill (abuser) and Saul Goodman (protagonist)/ Logan Roy (abuser) and Kendall Roy (protagonist)
Is it hard to make a sympathetic antagonist whose morals are all realistically grey?
You see, there's a spectrum. On one end, there's "Eats babies." On the other end, there's "Doesn't eat babies." All you have to do is put your character smack dab in the middle of that spectrum, and boom, you've got a complex, nuanced character.
There are the Magneto/Killmonger/Grindelwald types of grey characters:
- They want to do good things
- But they kill babies
You mixed up white intentions and black morality and tadaaaaaa! You have a compelling grey character! (no)
EDIT: Bonus point if your character does not even have white intentions but is a manipulator all the way. Writing grey characters is hard, so let's instead write characters who look grey but are not.
It's why I've settled on, "A character who the author favors to the point it's detrimental to the story" as the only concise and clear-cut definition of a "Mary Sue." It'd be better if there were a concise and snappy term for this that is common enough that people get it but Mary Sue is the one that has gained the most traction and it's good enough.
TVTropes already has a name for this, it's called the Creator's Pet.
How to not write a Mary Sue : don't write at all
how do you come up with such wise wisdom, oh wise one with your wisdom so wise.
The only way to win is to not play the game.
One story I want to write has EVERYBODY being THE best at what they do... but the perfect thief can't steal a cornerstone from a major building without destroying that building, and the knight who can pierce anything that can be pierced and crush anything that can be crushed can't beat a social situation into submission... and it's hard to stab something twice your size when you've being held up by the face, and because lots of people can develop powers like that, you've got to find a way to play to your strengths and find weaknesses.
The Thief can steal the deed to the building, and order everyone out before taking the cornerstone.
The knight can learn how to manage social situations passably, and has help from others to not fight alone.
And other ways of working around weaknesses/playing to strengths.
When your English class is abstinence-only
@@dbsommers1The way to NOT LOSE is not play the game 👀
The battle between Mary Sue and Marie Seu’s gonna be legendary
LETS GOOO!
Marie Seu is gonna destroy Mary Sue frfr trust
Don't forget the interloper... Ma-REY Sue!
Marie Seu makes me chuckle since "Seu" means "grease" in Romanian.
Marie Shubert, hell yeah.
To any writers who might read this: The demographic of media consumers that debate eternally about whether characters are Mary Sues or not is a very small minority that can be safely ignored. So long as you design a character that isn’t overwhelmingly Mr/Mrs perfect or a 0 in every special stat, then most people won’t have an issue with them
Marinette from miraculous?
It's amazing how many questions and problems in life can be answered by simply Having balance
Its less about how overpowered the characters are, and more about to what degree the plot bends to accommodate them like the weave bends to the Ta'veren in Wheel of Time.
If a character does something stupid, it should have repercussions and not get immediately glossed over, and it should also not feel like other characters are acting out of character just so they can get all the best moments. There needs to be a level of logical consistency within the story, and some degree of visibility in the flow of cause and effect. Instead of having new powers as the plot demands, try to find another method of solving the problem with the abilities the character has already displayed, and if they do reveal a new power, have something in the story actually show why they can suddenly do it, or haven't already done it beforehand. And never introduce a power that will only be used once and forgotten about, especially if it's a power that can easily solve every problem in the future with ease.
@@plantainsame2049That was beautifully put, no joke
@@plantainsame2049merging two opposite things so that they become one. By taking things at a moderate pace one can do anything.
This feels like the mindset of someone who wrote a marry sue and then overcorrected not knowing the fundamentals. Great video.
True. Also the mindset of someone who is inexperienced and tried to write something nobody could possibly object to because they watched other writers get skewered by the internet and were terrified it would happen to them, too.
The difference between an interesting character and a boring one is not the amount of assets you tack onto the character model, but how you pose them. While every other character was being placed and posed in this video, both Mary Sue and Not Mary Sue retained the same posture: idleness and indifference.
Best take. It's also the execution that can make or break or make it.
Just look at the Disney re-makes; it has the same story and all but they crashed the landing 43 miles away from the original point.
Hell, I’m gonna argue that Mary sues aren’t even necessarily boring and don’t always ruin a story! Sure, they’re a sign of bad writing, but that doesn’t mean that stories with Mary Sues are doomed to be no longer entertaining
@@Eosinophyllis Velma....
It's such a shame Mary Sue doesn't have the bite it should anymore. A loud minority of writers have seemingly just started to make pointlessly rude and obnoxious protagonists whilst still trying to pass them off as likeable.
yeah it basically became "any female main character i don't like"
It's called Millennial Writing
@@starmaker75 I blame that on so many characters made into a Mary Sue and politicized. true, many people use the term to just throw shade, but that doesn't mean there aren't real Mary Sue characters as well. in the end, the only person to decide if a character is a Mary Sue/Marty Stu is the individual reader.
@@sinisterthoughts2896 I think my personal favorite example is rey from Star Wars. calling her a Mary Sue is a valid critique because of how the story bends around her to make her look cool. that’s like a textbook Mary Sue. however, a lot of the people I saw calling her that didn’t actually have arguments besides “she’s an overpowered female character”, or “something something evil feminism”. it was a weird combination of misogyny and bad media literacy. The critiques were correct, but she’s not a Mary Sue because she’s a woman or because she’s “over powered”. she’s a Mary Sue because the story around her twists itsself into knots to make her look good.
@@wren_. Don't forget undeserved title-taking, 'Rey Palpatine' in that last scene... or 'Just Rey'... she didn't 'earn' Skywalker. c.c Amoung so many other issues.
I remember the story with what I felt was the biggest Mary Sue I'd ever read was an Villainess Isekai, a genre that's admittedly oversaturated with OP protags, but it had absolutely nothing to do with her powers. It was entirely her role in the narrative that made me consider her a Mary Sue.
Because she was the most passive fucking protagonist I've ever seen in my goddamm life. She would just stand there like a piece of soggy toast and the narrative would twist itself into a pretzel trying to dump gifts on her lap and justify her as the most special person in existence for doing nothing.
Like, in the first few chapters, she's trying to shake her coachman so she can leave the country, but she just stands there and makes excuses until a handsome stranger appears and pretends to be her servant so she can get to the train station. This handsome stranger just happens to be the prince of a neighbouring country, who apparently butted in... just because. Like she wasn't even in trouble with thugs or anything. Her coachman was literally too worried about her to let her leave alone. Anyways, princey immediately decides to take her to all his closest knights and aides, and of course THEY all decide she's the best thing since sliced bread and immediately treat her like a longtime friend and confidante just because. No reason. They just do. So of course they decide to bring her along with them on their road trip, to a place that is coincidentally her mother's homeland, and when she randomly dips her feet in some water she unlocks her super-special rainbow magic powers.
To reiterate: she just happens to accompany a person who iust happens to be the prince of a neighbouring country who just happens to take her to the place she needed to go to unlock her powers, while the "protag" herself takes absolutely no actions that would justify having these things happens to her, and just stands around and lets other people lead her along to wherever she needs to go to be rewarded as the most specialest person to have ever been born by the narrative. I consider her a Mary Sue because she does NOTHING.
I would literally have no problem with any of the things that happen to her if SHE was the one who made them happen. If going to her mother's homeland to unlock her real powers had been her goal from the start, instead of something she stumbles into. If she had grabbed a random man by the arm to pretend he's her servant for the coachman, and he turned out to be a prince, it would be contrived, but this genre is full of contrivances anyways and at least this way she's playing an active part instead of being a narrarive tungsten cube that just fucking sits there. If maybe the prince didn't immediately decide she's the best thing since sliced bread and only accompanied her out of curiosity, and then take more of an interest when he sees her super special awesomesauce rainbow sprinkle with a cherry on top magic.
The events would be the same, the protagonist's powers would be the same, but it would feel more satisfying because she would have been an active participant in her own fate. And I think that's the difference between a Sue and a character.
Very good points
"a narrarive tungsten cube" 😭😭😭i cant-💀
Isekai authors sweating right now.
Gary Sues too - *Kirito*
No no you see, people ignore Mary sues when its not a woman
How Isekai fans talk about Isekai: "Oh, another trash Isekai." "Man, this episode is so bad." "Absolutely disgusting." "The Worst." "That makes no sense."
The same people five seconds later: "Well see you guys next week to watch the new episode." "See you then." "Bye." "Man, I can't wait."
@@Nuuump Thats exactly how it goes and we wouldnt have it any other way. Its trash but its *our* trash
@amydoesart3724 Kirito and Wesley Crusher would like a word with you.
I remember caring far too much about the status of a character being somehow a mary sue. Now I'm just like "lol, I'm going to have a story beat where she rips and tears a mech to pieces with little more than a crowbar and anime martial arts." as it was meant to be.
Literally my stories, basically just Gumball/Sonic plots where basically every fantasy race possible beats up hordes of a mad doctor's evil robots and wacky henchmen, and maybe kill a god or two as collateral damage.
That’s true. My oc’s basically troll everyone while fighting ghosts
Stupidly overpowered MC?
Doable, but difficult to pull off
More fun if they're self aware
"Its okay to be bad" is quite honestly such good advice (with context)
2:50, “Ebony isn’t a Mary Sue, she’s a Satanist”. If you understand that reference, then you have my deepest sympathies for having read that
My Immortal is a master piece and you know it.
Satan made her too beautiful!
@@dr.altoclef9255 So she wishes she weren’t as good at everything as she is.
@@AnEvilBastard It is a masterpiece in the original sense of that word
Enoby darkness dementia raven way
Thank you for making this. I used to sweat all the time about how people would interpret characters I write. Obsessing over what people think about your work isn't super helpful and I only got my big projects done when I decided that it only mattered that I liked and believed the characters. Internet discourse can be terrible and its great to have a video to point people to.
It is interesting how modern parlance has moved Mary Sue from the very ‘this OC in a fanfic is taking up too much of the story and is blocking out the characters I care about’ to ‘this character in the story is objectively bad because they take up too much of the plot’.
That’s not to say Mary Sue’s can’t exist in non-fanfic media, I just feel like the part where the Mary Sue is a post-hoc addition to an original cast is an important point of the definition that’s often forgotten. Without that unique qualifier the term ‘Mary Sue’ can cover the scope of literally any female character you find annoying.
I've heard the former logic applied to characters like gojo (my bad, he's now go/jo).
I can definitely say that he has a lot of narrative connections, was also the highest tier mf, and was the center of several plots.
But he's not really a sue.
So how is he defined? a narrative star?
It's been a long time since I even wanted to label a character a Mary Sue. The last time I got that vibe was when I played Dragon Age Inquisition and first heard about Grand Enchanter Fiona, the Grey Warden who got to leave the Wardens and is immune both to the Blight and the Calling for some reason, who has an over the top angsty backstory, and who's secretly the mother of Alistair even though that retcons his backstory from Origins.
I don't like using the term Mary Sue, but sometimes a pitch just gets lobbed right over the plate.
Genuinely I wish the term "Mary Sue" never breached containment from fanfiction circles because it completely loses any real meaning outside of them for the reasons you said
@@teddyhaines6613Fiona’s not a main character and is almost completely irrelevant to anything if you recruit the Templars instead. And if you recruit the mages she’s only a tiny bit more relevant. She’s not important enough to Inquisition to be a Mary Sue. I’ve not read the books, maybe she is there, but I don’t think her appearance in the game counts enough for it.
@@SorowFame I was referring to her portrayal in the books where she is the main character, apologies for being unclear. The main game doesn't mention her rape-heavy backstory and I don't remember if it mentions her inexplicable Blight immunity. It's just that Inquisition was the first time I'd heard of her, and upon looking at what happened in the stories centering on her, I had to throw up my hands and call BS.
A long time ago I used to write a lot of fan fiction and would write entire "extra seasons" of existing series. I wrote two major OCs that were close to main characters. One I could write lots of stories with, but the other led me to eventually quit because I was unable to write a conflict for an OC, but now I'm realizing they were a Mary Sue.
Non-Mary Sue OC: Cirrus Storm (MLP FiM)
Rainbow Dash's cousin who was close friends with Rainbow as fillies and frequently raced, but Cirrus always lost. Eventually Cirrus got so desperate to win that she experimented with ways to cheat, and found out how to harness kinetic/electric energy from storm clouds by stuffing them into cannisters and calling them "Storm Battieres".
She finally beat Rainbow Dash in a race by strapping Storm Battery powered Rockets under her wings, but then got a cutiemark of a Storm Battery. Afterwards Cirrus became deeply depressed over this, believing her cutiemark was for "cheating" and saw it as a symbol of shame. She disconnected from all her friends and family and moved to live in isolation from everyother pony, causing her to become unempathetic, introverted, and insecure. To earn a living, she sold storm battery technology to Cloudsdale. Character wise, she genuinely wants to help other ponies, but has trouble knowing whats socially acceptable which causes problems.
Several stories were written about her surrounding her flaws:
-The cutiemark crusaders help Cirrus see her cutiemark as a good thing as the tech she invented benefited Cloudsdale immensely, and move on from seeing it as a negative status symbol for cheating. They also restore her friendship with Rainbow.
-Twilight wants to meet Cirrus after hearing about her from the crusaders. Cirrus instead flees believing the only reason royalty would want to talk to her is if she commited a crime.
-Cirrus gets mad at Rainbow for not liking one of her inventions, so the Mane 6 teach Cirrus that being friends with someone doesn't mean instant approval.
-Cirrus Storm creates prosethic wing extensions for Scootaloo so she can fly like other Pegasi, but Scootaloo finds shes no where near as good at flying as other Pegasi so she becomes embarrassed to see Rainbow Dash again. Cirrus Storm tells Scootaloo about her own insecurities of losing to Rainbow Dash but thanks to the crusaders gained the courage to see her again, so Scootaloo shows her prosethic wings to Rainbow anyways
-Cirrus backwards engineers Changeling abilities and invents a device that lets the user to shapeshift into other things, then loans it out to others in hopes of approval but others just end up abusing it for personal gain. Chaos ensues and she has to be taught a lesson in self-restraint.
-A Pegasus stallion dog walker develops a crush on Fluttershy. Cirrus tries to help the stallion get a date with Fluttershy but doesn't take into account how uncomfortable this makes Fluttershy. The stallion eventually calls Cirrus out on this.
-In the "extra season" finale, the antagonist is an incredibly dangerous Necromancer Wolf who was defeated by Celestia 500 year ago by sealing their power inside a gemstone, but the gemstone couldn't be destroyed so it was buried. In the present, the Necromancer Wolf revives with a fraction of his power, but can sense where the gemstone is and if they obtain it they get restored to full power allowing him to take over Equestria in an instant.
While Celestia admits she couldn't destroy the gemstone 500 years ago, she suspects there's probably a way in the present to get rid of the Necromancer for good and tasks the Mane 6 in consulting various magic prodigies, meanwhile Rainbow Dash is given the gemstone and is required to fly as fast as possible to escape the Necromancer Wolf's shadow clones that he sent to retrieve the gemstone until a means of destroying it is found. Rainbow Dash becomes increasingly exhausted but she has to keep going as she's the only one fast enough to outmaneuver the shadow clones.
In the final stretch, Sunburst and other unicorns invent a spell that can invert the gemstones contained power and cause it to self-destruct so they request Rainbow Dash bring the gemstone to them, but the Mane 6 find out Rainbow Dash became exhausted and had the gemstone taken from her so its being delivered to the Necromancer. She tells the Mane 6 that only somepony who can fly as fast as her could reach the shadow clones in time.
Fortunately Cirrus Storm steps up and takes out the "Storm Battery Powered Rockets" she originally used to cheat in the race against Rainbow Dash and rockets her way to the shadow clones and retrieves the gemstone right before the Necromancer Wolf gets it back, allowing Sunburst to perform the spell to destroy it along with the wolf. Every pony celebrates Cirrus Storm, but Rainbow Dash cries in the corner as she failed in the end. Cirrus Storm asks everypony to acknowledge Rainbow Dashes efforts to keep the gemstone away as long as she did which cheers her up.
Mary Sue OC: Kiyee (Legend of Korra)
A Waterbender who invented "Vapor Bending" who could bend literally anything as long as its wet, including air in moist areas. He ends up cooperating with the main cast simply out of competence and desire to help. They practically rivalled Korra in terms of strength.
The fan fic series just consisted of Kiyee defeating a threat of unknown origin repeatedly, but I didnt decide on what the threat was in advance. Just that Id write what it was in a later entry.
However after 8 entries of him defeating random enemies I still couldn't come up with a convincing villain or threat as there's nothing that could defeat Kiyee with what's established about him, so I just abandoned writing fan fics of that series entirely with no finale.
This was very fun to read! Cirrus definitely sounds like an interesting character.
As somebody in both fandoms, I am fascinated by the process you went with making both characters.
good story. i particularly think having a drstiny as a cheater is a nice touch
0:58 I’m now liking the idea of a story where *every single character* is an overpowered, “perfect” Mary Sue. All the stereotypical traits associated with Mary Sues clashing with each other in a world where everyone has them sounds like an absolute clusterfuck and I’m all for it.
8:00 I just had Vietnam flashbacks to Princess Changeling Rainbow Magic Pants, aka P-CRaMPs from MLP:FIM fanfiction. She had the heart of a dragon... and the spleen of a griffon. She's literally the offspring of all of the major powers in the show... at the same time. She was considered a nightmarish abomination by all in-universe with characters saying they should kill her as early as chapter one. It's the only acceptable way to have a Mary Sue.
JP, you have the greatest timing when it comes to uploading these TWA videos. The first major incident is you uploaded less than a day after I had intensive spinal surgery. And now I've had a terrible day with a math test. I don't know what logic your following, but keep it up, and thank you.
I've been incubating a book for nine years now, and I think you make a good point about taking too long, but the thing is, I came up with the idea when I was just 14, and I've been developing it since then with research, inspiration, and school assignments. My plan isn't to just procrastinate-I just think that being an author isn't something that most people should consider doing as a career and I'm preparing to take a different, more stable path. Right now, I'm more focused on becoming an adult than writing a novel.
Once I'm independent and financially secure, then the real work will begin. The plan is to do it as a project, not a job that I'm reliant on the unlikely success of.
If I succeed-and I still think I can-then great! But if I fail, then that's okay because I'll still have a career to live off of.
I'm sure that your statement was probably aimed at full-time employed middle-aged adults who have been planning on writing a novel for too long and never actually done anything, but I just felt like I should give my two cents.
I will soon be in a day job in marketing and advertising just to pay the bills while I work on my book
You can still hone your craft by writing short stories in between. Good luck!
21 years I've been working on my story. I suffer from Tolkien syndrome (excessive world building).
@@sianais
I actually do have plans to do that. I think I'll follow in Walt Disney's footsteps and rewrite Snow White first. That way, half the work is already done for me. Perfect for a beginner.
Thank you for your kind words.
@@kohakuaiko
Yeah, me too. I think I'm probably overdoing it with all the things I'm coming up with.
I love how J.P has single-handedly solved ship wars through his writing abilities at 1:51. Truly a magnificent feat. (And to think Harry potter simply had to marry Aang for it to happen.)
"throw more crap at them and the audience will sympathise harder, not start laughing at how ridiculous this is"
Ah, someone's been watching Magical girl Site
One of my favorite characters is a (former) Mary Sue. She was created when I was very young and did not know how to write a good character, who I then brought back to write into a more interesting story where the other characters in her world slowly discovered was, in fact, a Sue.
Before they figured it out, she was basically a deity. Everyone loved and supported her, she made friends with everyone she possibly could, and anyone who threatened anyone she liked either got convinced to knock it off after a threat from her, or got killed. After they discovered what she was, the other characters began to fear her. She reacted to the rejection by becoming progressively more unstable, and her clinginess and violent tendencies became an actual problem. This all snowballed until she LOST her Mary Sue status by no longer being the center of attention, no longer being liked or agreed with by everybody, and suddenly having all of her dormant personality flaws dredged up and shown for what they were.
She's still got every single power anyone could ever want, but what makes her interesting now is how she handles relationships and her own self (and others) destructive tendencies.
So, basically, she was trying to be this "perfect golden child" like Isabelle (bel, belle or bella?) in Encanto? Like, putting up a facade of a nice popular girl, like some anime characters?
While Mary Sue is it's own problem, complaining about it is also overplayed. It kinda is just "female I don't like" but more than likely has traits with author's pet or overpowered within universe and may have nothing to do with the lead writer.
Focus on making a realized character rather than perfect girl BUT has a superfluous flaw or dilemma tacked on. Part of why Rey in Star Wars is so divisive is she's not really an author's self insert just kind of bland and seated in the protagonist role. Everything going wrong for a character is just as bad as everything being picture perfect and can come off as the author just ranting, still falling into the flaw of inserting yourself rather than someone who grew organically in universe.
Fan fiction is fan fiction so you can get away with a lot just to brush it off as creative writing, but when it's an original work with fresh characters I agree half the problems with an inserted Mary Sue just apply to any protagonist to a lesser degree, therefore any female protagonist is going to have some traits of "girl I don't like". Okay bad writing makes those traits worse but MS is still a blanket statement.
The sponsor segment is so painfully accurate to real life that it makes me want to both laugh and cry. Amazing video as always!
Yep I fell like it reflects Wagner
You joke, but this is basically what happened to fanfiction and some art communities in the early 2010's. A lot of people (especially kids) saw stuff about Mary Sues are basically the devil, so they course corrected so far backwards that they made charatcers that were souless husks.
I think I’ll call those types of characters “Anti-Sues” from now on
It seems like the term ironically got watered down after people realized that you can write an entertaining OP main character (usually when they're charismatic or funny out of universe too).
If theres one thing I never understood in most OCs that try to be "cool" or "edgy" its the whole shoehorning of trauma after trauma. Its not realistic in the slightest, just, happens with no explanation and somehow people expect that to make their character better than others
Ah, the Edgy Sue. Mary Sue's emo cousin who is allergic to basic research.
What about the Telenovela Sue? Or even her Filipina equivalent from the more overblown Teleseryes?
oh sweet summer child, still so full of innocence towards a world that shits out individuals whose autobiographies would make a misery porn author shudder
@@hi-i-am-atan Oh fuck no, even I did it. But once I realized how stupid it was, on top of having some experiences myself, kinda realized that theres a ton of nuance to trauma than just "Thing happened, now sad". The constant need for pity points is friggen draining
Lol I wrote a character who had an absurd amount of tragic things happen to him in his past and was generally unlucky, but I made him super sweet, innocent and naively positive to contrast it in a way that was funny & sad. He was supposed to be like a cross between Kieran from RDR2 and Butters from South Park.
One of the those terms that started out valid and then became as weak and overused as the very thing it called out, joining the Sue instead of destroying it. Reactionary overcompensation in the other direction isn't as prevalent but I'm sure it can happen, especially the blandness thing where we're afraid to give a character any meaningful traits due to associated connotations and stereotypes ('character likes fashionable clothes so they must be a vapid airhead obsessed with looks!') so they just end up vacant.
I absolutely love this. Mary Sue was the first video, so it's beautiful to see it all come full circle with terrible writing advice on how not to write a sue
*2nd
First was dystopias
@@DinoRicky oh yeah thanks!
I cannot thank you enough for this perfect summary of all my insecurities when it comes to storytelling. It's so nice and important to see how many people were going through similar things. I hope you know how much your silly little videos have helped me and probably many other viewers to overcome their overly perfectionist creative self-restriction.
This topic was also covered by Just a Robot, Critical Drinker and Jay-Exci made a 5 hour video
about a group of them but dont worry
about that huge videolength, i assure its not a problem.
@@loturzelrestaurant i don't know if critical drinker is the best guy to watch if you want to become a better writer most of the videos i have seen of him seem shallow and not understanding what shows try to show without telling what is going on.
@@neasper Haha, yha, i get what you mean, but hey, his 'Why modern movies s-ck' Video-Series is pretttyy goodd.
@@loturzelrestaurant no they're not, he's a reactionary charlatan and JAR isn't any better.
How Isekai fans talk about Isekai: "Oh, another trash Isekai." "Man this episode is so bad." "Absolutely disgusting." "The Worst." "That makes no sense."
The same people five seconds later: "Well see you guys next week to watch the new episode." "See you then." "Bye." "Man, I can't wait."
Isekai's are like potato chips.
Same lol😭 premise and plot might be cliche, but as long as there's something interesting or maybe some character that i like, i will still watch it
Great video. It's becoming increasingly rare to encounter independent thinkers these days who challenge the parroting inside of echo chambers. The term 'Mary Sue' is thrown around so much anymore it has blurred the line between a well written character and what a Mary Sue actually is. A writer can't just make a female protagonist unattractive, excessively flawed, and hit by every branch from the misfortune tree from one page to the next to escape the label. Then you just have an anti-Mary Sue instead of a good, well-written character. I like the bit about it's ok to be a bad writer. Being a bad writer doesn't mean you don't have a good story to tell.
It's ok to make a female character attractive, liked, and powerful. But there has to be context and contrast. A reader is more likely to empathize with your MC if she tries and fails. When there are true consequences for her failure. And having to grow as a character in order to finally reach her goal. IOW. In order for the character to grow (not be a MS), they must persevere past the consequences that has resulted from their failures.
Unironic Advice: To be a Mary Sue, a character must have at least 2 out of 3 attributes:
✅️: They never fail at anything, and no obstacle is not beaten through minimal effort.
✅️: Almoat all of the narrative focuses on him or her
✅️: Every good character always agrees with and likes him or her
✓ If they do fail or get overwhelmed, they suddenly gain an unexpected and undeserved power boost and effortlessly wipe the obstacle.
✔ They're a Persona protagonist not named Tatsuya or Maya
✔️ everyone will tell you that they are the greatest person you'll ever meet, but the story will never try to convince you _why_ or _how_ - if it does, then it is sloppy at best
Agreed.
@@1PiddsThis whole list reminds me of Ren Amamya/Joker
Now I'm desperate to write a Mary Sue. Reverse psychology absolutely nailed me this time. As long as the rest of the characters stay in character mostly and the plot is interesting it'll be fine.
I feel like part of the mary sue issue is that all other character agency in the story goes down the toilet in the face of the flawless human plot-sucking void. They learn nothing if this void consumes their personal issues.
How about a story with two people who were Mary Sues in their own stories before they met each other?
I've enjoyed a number of books with 'perfect' characters. You can write likable perfect characters so long as you write them well (which many don't)
make them funny and you’ll be fine!
Here are some ideas!
The rest of the characters realize that the Sue is controlling their every action and have to deal with it as best they can. Do some of them ally with her willingly just because they have no choice? Do some of them try to resist? Do some of them reserve judgment until they can find out whether the Sue is benevolent or not? Speaking of which, do you have a benevolent Sue or a malevolent Sue? By that I mean, does the Sue generally brighten the lives of those associated with them, or do chaos and tragedy and strife appear in their every footstep? If the former, many characters might go to the Sue's side just to enjoy convenience. Characters with targic backstories might be very grateful to the Sue for granting them a respite from drama. A malevolent Sue, on the other hand, might be very popular with characters that love action and seek opportunities for glory. Characters that have their own malevolent motivations might also seek a way to deploy the Sue as a weapon in their own evil plans. For that matter, even a benevolent Sue might be weaponized with the hope of pacifying enemies into inaction...
And that's BEFORE you account for how the Sue feels.
Disclaimer: this character would not be a true Mary Sue, but rather a parody of them. A genuine Sue is defined by having negative impacts on the story. If you find a way to take Sueish traits and make them interesting in a way that supports a story, then you have not created a genuine Sue, but rather a parody Sue or a deconstructed Sue. Nothing wrong with this! Just be aware that a character that does not ruin the story truthfully isn't a Mary Sue, but at best a relative of such. A Janet Sue? An Alice Sue? Hmm...
Funnily enough, this video seems like what Marvel Comics have done to the character of Spider-Man (Peter Parker) all these years. Making him suffer for the sake of making him suffer, not for character development.
It’s really sad to see all the Spider-Man character development go away permanently. Because Marvel loves misery P4N in all but name.
Wouldn't a truly perfect writer not even have to worry about writing a Mary Sue, because the writer is just that perfect in every way that everyone will always love what the writer does?
(great vid, btw)
3:56, this one seems to be a common pitfall for Spider-Man comic writers. Can’t he just find happiness without his character development being regressed?
I disagree, especially the Toby Maguire version in Spider-Man 2
@@unicorntomboy9736 I’m referring to the comics.
@@matthewrohde4198 I have not read the comics
@@unicorntomboy9736Well you’re not missing out on much with the current issues. Present day Spidey writers are basically writing torture pron
@@emblemblade9245 current spider man comic writers just basically write torture and misery P4N in all but name. Sad if otherwise really Inevitable due to Marvel’s long term ensh8ification.
I want to write an antagonist based on the Mary Sue. Imagine, an alluring, insanely powerful witch who uses her eldritch abilities to bend reality around her. She laces her voice and appearance with dark, hypnotic magic that causes those around her to obsess over her, even beyond the point of self-preservation, like a siren song luring hapless sailors to their doom. Her goal is to use her magic to become queen-goddess over all the universe and have even the most powerful among mankind at her beck and call. The only way to defeat her is to kill her, but how can one do that when her face, her voice, even her scent, weaves a spell that can ensnare even the most powerful of wills? Beware the elder witch Mary Sue. Do not come too close, lest you join her throng of worshippers for all eternity…
Sounds like Abeloth
7:44 I like how Beaubien points out that being overpowered and a very idealized, focused individual isn't what makes a Mary Sue, just by bringing up Superman.
And he has a point. If that's the case, then all these deity-like characters would be Mary Sues.
The traits Beaubien brings up work with Superman because those traits add to Superman's character, as Superman is meant to be an inspiring paragon.
If I ever took a college course about writing with J.P as my professor, and he did all this for the lessons, I would love the class.
J Ps videos got me through a literature and creative writing major
J.P. is growing in both method and madness!
Seriously though,, having followed this channel since its inception, I can tell how refined J.P.'s knowledge of the craft has grown. Editing, scripting, visuals, content, my you have come a long way. This could be the best writing advice channel on TH-cam. Sir, I salute you.
Just remember that it doesn't matter how hard you try, someone will call your character a Mary Sue. It's inevitable no matter the writer or work.
Especially if they're a girl. If Goku had a bit of estrogen in her I guarantee redditors would be calling her a mary sue on the reg.
That's so true. I've heard cries of Hermione being a Mary Sue but never Harry Potter...
@@novameowwwWhile I agree, this makes it somewhat hilarious that Goku is--was?--voiced by a woman in Japan.
@@novameowww Nah that Reddit was the majority before; now it it's full of Reddit "leftists" (insufferable oafs pretending to care or far-left)
@@orwellianwiress well, let's see... doesn't struggle with anything, parts of the plot revolve around her, almost completely flawless...
She's very close to a Mary Sue, particularly in the movies. Potter, meanwhile, makes several massive errors that he's punished for (Sirius's death as one example), has a multitude of flaws, and is only plot important because the villain forces him to be.
One of these characters is a lot more Sue than the other. Not to say Hermione actually is one, she lacks the plot black hole effect and doesn't have everyone fawning over her every move (she receives a lot of pushback from sympathetic characters over the house elf thing, as an example).
Now, a good example of a Mary Sue is live action Mulan. A good example of a Marty Sue is probably Commander Shepard or Doom Slayer, which should tell you one thing: if everything around the Sue is fun, well written, and interesting... they aren't actually a bad thing to use. A Sue can be interesting *because* they can act as shining paragons. Superman, Wonder Woman, and Flash are perfect example of it along with a *shitload* of video game main characters.
Execution is important.
4:08 I like that chain of bad things happening to the NMS, because, if your coffee catches fire, there is probably a crapload of alcohol in it.
... Which recontextualizes why the car wasn't paid off, why the dog wasn't let in, and -- rather disturbingly -- why Gram-Gram fell down those stairs.
"I mean, the story bends over backwards to make sure all her _monumental_ screwups don't matter while all the characters just.. forgive her for some reason"
Wandavision summarized in a single sentence, I think.
Except that Wanda had her vulnerable moments. She’s definitely not a Mary Sue. She’s more in the “Protagonist-biased morality” aka “It’s okay when we do it” trope.
@@nont18411 It's pretty amusing to me how you don't see the irony in your reply, when this video is literally solely dedicated to making fun of that very "[X character] can't be a Mary Sue because [insert trait they lack here]" line of reasoning.
@@nont18411no she’s a Mary Sue since everyone bends over backwards in the story to make excuses for her
@@chaplincrabtree only Rambeau and the plot do that, Nobody else in that show forgave her
Funny since the video makes fun of needles semantic of what is or isn’t one
8:25 = I encountered this so many times when I discovered fanfiction in the early 2000s. All I wanted was to read more stuff outside of the movies about my favorite characters; but half to two-thirds of the stories I found, would self-insert a character/OC then mess up the whole dynamic.
Fanfics are a classic needle-in-a-haystack situation.
You know there are real gems waiting to be found, but you have to dig half-blind through tons of bland and terrible stuff to reach them.
5:44
Reminds me of Chivalry of a failed Knight, where the protagonist has a magical power that seems so situational and weak, so he's honed his body and mind to MAKE it work and become a swordsman that's able to duel with master magic users.
You should make a Terrible Writing Advice about Multiverses or Time Travel
OH MAN THAT WOULD BE PERFECT. THOSE SUCKERS ARE SO EASY TO MESS UP.
What about historical fiction
MCU: *[nervous sweating]*
Ah, multiverses.
AKA "Lets start being creative with our characters and make them go through interesting character arcs and scenarios...before deciding 'screw it' and killing them all off because hey, this isn't the MAIN universe!"
The irony of anti mary sues is that they are still mary sues.
This topic was also covered by Just a Robot
and Jay-Exci made a 5 hour video
about a group of them but dont worry
about that huge videolength, i assure its not a problem.
Yeah they fit the bill of every female protagonists of a YA romance novel
Because the buzzword means nothing anymore, goalposts keeps switching as long as it inconveniences women in writing.
A quote that will always stick with me about the Mary Sue Species:
"A Mary Sue is a character who, for no comedic reason, the rules of the franchise's universe do not apply to them."
9:43 it’s been two years since I’ve started my journey, you’re right. Thanks for keeping it real brother.
As someone who’s doing school full time and work 30 hours a week though, I gotta be easy on myself though.
"It's okay to be bad. You can always write something better later."
Thanks.. I needed to hear that.
I hope to get a "J. P. Contradictions Compilation" at some point. Just all the times JP said something that contradicted something else he said. Considering the Whole Premise of the show I'd not be shocked if J. P. himself released it.
I wonder how many different thing character and/or story are beholden to.
when has he contradicted himself, I'm curious
Advice so nice we needed it twice.
I really appreciate the message at the end. I don't feel like i suffer from either end of the marry sue extreme, but I'll get ideas that i put my heart and soul into and worry myself so much i drop it out of stress rather than put out something that may be imperfect but will help me grow
Something that was said on a site complaining about bad roleplayers has stuck with me, and this video reminded me of it: The fear of the Mary Sue is often worse than any Mary Sue.
Oh I remember when internet writing communities were obsessed with not making Mary Sues to the point that nowadays I struggle with given a character more than _two_ strong skills. These days I think it does more harm than good?
Personally my struggle isn't so much being a bad writer, though it is definitely that, but also not doing the story in my head justice.
Mary sue was never gonna have any positive impact in the long run, all it did was just drove girls away from writing.
Seriously, could you please put the "It's okay to be a bad writer. Keep writing and make an honest effort to improve. Eventually you wont be a bad anymore." on a shirt. I would wear it for my class. Or would that be too off brand for you to put in your shop.
i find it amazing how there's a story out there for virtually every individual mary sue trait but done correctly. almost like when you make a story with believable characters that interact with their world it actually can turn out well. even the anti-traits JP mentioned. magicless character in a setting of the best magic users? black clover and mashle. they even have opposite atmospheres on the matter, as mashle is basically a comedy where mash being overpowered despite no magic is the entire point, while black clover is a story about working hard to achieve your goals and figuring out how to do it with your specific hand. "being different" is also a sueish trait in that regard, but they both make it work for the world the characters live in. black clover even has what would basically be a textbook mary sue on the surface in yuno, but despite all of his abilities and overwhelming strength, he still has to earn respect from many of his colleagues due to his peasant origins, and never looks down at asta despite asta usually lagging behind him, instead working even harder to make sure asta doesnt catch up.
I think the issue with bad things constantly happening to the Not Mary Sue is that ultimately, luck is just an extension of one's willingness to come prepared. It's hard to sympathize with a Not Mary Sue when bandits kidnap her mid-route as she makes her way to another town when she could have hired bodyguards to protect her, avoided going along that route knowing bandits patrol there, or at the very least have acknowledged that this was a risk that she'd have to take because of the urgency of the plot.
1:21 "When everyone is myself insert, noone is."
- Not a Mary Sue, OC pls don't steal
Hey Terrible Writing Advice I don’t know if you’re reading this but I want to say thank you. You’re super sarcastic way of teaching how to write is super entertaining and this video for sure helped me realize what I really want to do with writing. Instead of writing for making a story, I just wanted self-validation. Thank you for helping me realize that (even though that’s probably super obvious). So now, instead of writing for that, I think I’ll stick to writing but never posting it. Again, thank you so much! You’re the best!
Funnily enough, I am currently working on a grimdark/ dark fantasy novel at the moment, which features a female anti heroine, so this video is very well timed
My protagonist is essentially a female Cloud Strife but who's young child self looks like young Jill Warrick from the recent Final Fantasy XVI
Tne narrative is a failed redemption arc which results in a negative character arc where she goes from an innocent young girl to a ruthless self serving anti heroine to a villain protagonist (caused by her crossing the despair event horizon) by the end of the novel
Independent of your story, I have realized that even now seeing "female Cloud Strife" still just makes me think of Lightning from _FFXIII_ and how poorly she and the rest of that game were written. This even though Lightning *isn't* a Mary Sue...at least in that game. I heard that last game gets kind of...indulgent with her in a creepy _Other M_ "this character is my perfect woman" type of way. Ugh.
Anyway, good luck with the writing.
Going full villain at the end is a big jump to end with. What’s the purpose or theme of ending it that way?
(Not criticizing I just like hearing about creative processes)
@@emblemblade9245 Sometimes it's just being stuck in the moral gray areas that can slowly crush your soul and make you give up on your humanity. Often the themes of grimdark are best described by the joker quote "die a hero or live long enough to become a villain". In Cyberpunk, a big theme is that no matter how hard you fight the system, you will always lose because the system is so much bigger than an individual can take down. you get squashed like a bug or become part of the very thing you fought against.
Of course, this is why I personally hate grimdark. Because if I wanted to lose my faith in humanity I'd just scroll twitter.
Some people love it because it encourages hope of the human spirit to rebel and be good in the face of overwhelming oppression.
@@shanedsouza189 It's not pointlessly grimdark all the time, there are hopespots in the story at times, especially with my protagonist's childhood friend/love interest (think of them as a Steve Rodgers type character, a paragon of good if you will that starkly contrasts the bleak setting). This makes the heavy moments more impactful
@@unicorntomboy9736That is very true. Good luck with your writing!
Ngl, a story where literally every character is a mary sue is too hilarious of a premise, now that you've mentioned it
I jumped right into publishing knowing my first few books would be terrible and yet people still read them. In 4 years I published 32 books and my first terrible one is still my most read.
6:06 I did actually read a couple stories about non magical people in magical worlds. Can be very interesting to explore the struggles of the main character trying to prove his value. But that would require writing a smart, intelligent character, wich often requires the author to think. So not posible to actually achieve.
I actually wrote a novel (or rather, the first draft of one) like that for my high school senior project. It wasn't perfect, but it had potential. If I can just find the draft, I can rewrite it. Thanks for uncovering that memory.
@@canaisyoung3601 No problem. Just send me it when you're done.
Why does this way of teaching work so well
I think Mindy Kaling used this video to write her version of Velma.
Wow. This is almost eerily convenient because I am curranty writing a chapter of a story of mine and looking at this video, i was DEFINITLY too focused on not making him a Mary Sue rather than simply focusing on simply having fun with it.
You, sir, are the man. And thank you.
I’ve more or less come to tune out discussions where the term “Mary Sue” is used. Once upon a time, the term served a purpose, but now it’s been hijacked by all the worst people who have decided it means “There’s a female lead character who doesn’t exist primarily as fetish material in mah movie.” The label seems to be thrown a disproportionate amount at female characters.
Because while it’s okay for men to have endless power fantasies marketed to them, for some reason, women aren’t allowed to have anything. Men can have their John Wicks and James Bonds, but whenever there’s a female lead, suddenly they’re deeply concerned about the realism of their movies, start combing through scenes to make sure it’s “realistic” for the female character to be able to do this.
Yup, exactly. Mary sue was never really good faith to begin with and was destined to be horrid, this is the only realistic path a term like that can take in a world we live in.
@@yungmuney5903This is not true. The term was hijacked by imbeciles, but Mary Sue and Gary Stu were useful terms to describe shallow characters with no conflicts nor goals because they had everything solved already. And we can (and must) retake that old meaning.
i love the concept of something that purposely says wrong things to mock flawed thinking, but also sneaks in actual good advise in the midst
like how you can give characters flaws that correlate their pros, like how a brave character could be arrogant, or an honest character could be unintentionally rude
this little channel is neat, keep it up!!!
I feel like people are forgetting that a Mary Sue is just ONE bad way to write a character and is not an umbrella term for everything that can be wrong with a character.
To throw some additional comments on top of this:
-Character flaws are good WHEN you remember to have redeeming characteristics that juxtopose them in a way that ADDS to the character. For example, how you might be decent at math or science in school and maybe you've been typecasted as an "idiot", but you are actually very talented when it comes to english and history and most people just don't know that about you. You now have LAYERS to you that show just because you aren't extremely talented on one thing doesn't mean you're not talented at another. You have your place in the world. Compare that to a Mary Sue who just excel at all subjects WITHOUT having a crippled social life, sleep schedule, and time for hobbies; all the virtues of being the straight A student with none of the downsides. If we're talking Disney's recent string of super-genius teenage girls, notice how they're all uppedity go-getters instead of, say, a quiet and misunderstood shut-in that isn't good at expressing themselves but have an endearing trait like a lack of confidence or is just naturally quiet until someone prompts them with conversation, something to play with that makes them feel like an actual human being who had to sacrifice certain things for their academics.
-Characters who are perfect all of the time aren't very engaging. Usually, the most compelling characters, no matter how simple, are fun and interesting BECAUSE of their simplicity and/or acknowledgment of their limited world view. Take a character like Doomguy who only really cares about killing demons. That is his one thing; he isn't out to sage the universe, to prove the badguy wrong or win some deep philosophical conversation on the meaning of life, he just REALLY hates demons to such an extent that he massacred the underworld, TWICE, all because they killed his rabbit, a rabbit which sharply undercuts any initial misconceptions one might have about him being an edgelord and adds a humorous tongue-in-cheek flavor to his character. Or take Lae'zel from Baldur's Gate 3. Personality wise she has all of the traits of a Mary Sue; abrasive, masculine, cold, devoid of humor, hero complex. It's all there... Except she's vulnerable, and as the game goes on it becomes clear she's just a headstrong acolyte to her cause and as it goes on she outright tells you past a certain point that her Githyanki code and ethics were once her whole world, but the adventure has shown her how ignorant she was and how much she likes the world outside of the war cult she has been trapped in. She was never a Mary Sue, just an naive albeit aggressively loyal soldier.
-The typical traits of a Mary Sue CAN work... As a villain. This is why Superman (sometimes) works as a villain, where you get to aee both the peak of his humanity before it becomes twisted and confused during the Injustice comics/movies in which the koss of Louise and his unborn child turns him into a genuine monster so hellbent on controlling the world just so he doesn't have to fear it any longer. This is a generally good skeleton for a villain story; have them be an icon amongst their own before having a "kick-off" point where their good traits get turned inwards on themselves and their capacity for evil is shown. Or maybe not evil at all, maybe they are only an antagonist through circumstance and it is a tragic turn of events where no one is necessarily doing the wrong thing but people are trapped in their current path, like a man with a family who will be killed if he does not let a bomb go off killing a bunch of OTHER innocent people.
-If "Every character is a Mary Sue", none of them are. "Mary Sue" is a term used to describe an outlier, if every character is uber powerful and given loads of attention and importance to the plot, that character isn't a Mary Sue. Rey Skywalker, for example, is a Mary Sue because she simultaneously has the least experience, training and relevance to ANYTHING going on at any given moment in the newer movies, yet at the same time she somehow fights better, knows other people's trades better and can resolve issues better than anyone else all while not having to go on any actual character journey or path to self improvement typical and expected of any hero. The Justice League, however, does not have any real Mary Sue and that is because not only does each character have their own unique super powers, but if one turns on the other members for any given reason, the plot becomes about stopping them and leveraging either power flaws or personality flaws to the hero's advantage.
The high quality animation during the sponsorship war is unsettling.
I like how the General has just gradually drifted towards being the protagonist because everyone else is on Greed's side
3:00 I am so glad you brought this up JP. I've been reading a certain YA novel series over the past couple months and they have (among _significant other problems_) that issue. It's a Hunger Games copycat. Which, you know, fine. Hungy James was good, if you're going to take heavy inspiration from something take it from something good. So you have the main protagonist, we'll call her Protag Honest. And she needs to be able to handle the spaaaace death games to be one of the lucky few chosen to be rescued from Earth before it's hit by an asteroid. Fighting every other teen on the planet for one of the few spots in a deadly battle royal not seen since hit film The Battle Royal.
So the problem is that she's a completely out of shape self-titled nerd/geek/dork who's incredibly socially awkward and only good at book smarts. She constantly puts her foot in her mouth, is absolutely not in the kind of physical shape necessary for serious intensive physical labor and exertion, is easily intimidated and bullied, and just an all around _loser._ I don't know if it was intentional or not, but it comes across to me as the author being so afraid of little Protag Honest being perceived as a Mary Sue that she made her a total wreck.
Which just makes it seem _even more absurd and OP_ when she nonetheless succeeds at the spaaaace death games, getting into shape in an infeasibly short amount of time while also somehow managing to become a leader figure among other contestants despite having the charisma of a, well, of an actual socially awkward, probably-on-the-spectrum 16 year old girl.
Just giving your character flaws doesn't automatically mean they're not Mary Sues. And even if they're not, it doesn't mean they're well written, compelling characters that the audience will root for. Good writing is so much more complex and challenging than just following one or two hard rules that ensure success. It requires an understanding of what makes a character compelling, of what nuance and balance. Good writing is *difficult!*
''somehow managing to become a leader figure among other contestants'' That's funny considering that Katniss had no charisma or leadership skills and was able to win over the audience and thereby the game because of Peeta saying he's in love with her, her survival and archery skills, and a lot of luck.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 Katnip won over the _audience._ Protag Honest in the series I'm criticizing wins over _other contestants._ And does it with words rather than actions half the time. The time that it's with actions, it's stuff that anyone would think to do but the book makes out to be incredible leaps of logic that only a very smart person would have thought of, cementing her status as A Smart Nerd Girl.
I've literally said out loud what the obvious solution is to problems that have come up, only for the book to have Honest do that very thing and be heaped with praise for her incredible inventiveness and out of the box thinking.
The series has a *lot* of problems, Mary Sue main character is just one of them.
*WOOHOO!!!! SUBTITLES ARE BACK!!!!*
Thank you, JP! Now I can continue to enjoy these videos in loud environments!
man yeah the Superman thing really drives the point home. Mary Sues (actual Mary Sues, not "female characters the fans don't like") are annoying because the story bends over backwards to make things work out for them, not because they're overpowered. They're just boring to a frustrating degree because the rest of the story and characters seems hell-bent on Telling Not Showing you that they're akshually the coolest most bestest evar! I like the power fantasy, I like protags who are hyper-competent, I like seeing attractive characters thirst over other attractive characters... I don't like when they win by default.
The OG Mary Sue was indeed a self-insert in a Star Trek fanfic, she was super sexy and more competent than the main cast despite being a new recruit and everyone wanted to bang her. It was self-indulgent fluff but, while kinda cringe, nothing egregious for fanfic. Things just kinda snowballed, as is fandom's wont.
Thank you for this. I tried to avoid writing a mary sue and my character ended up having the exact same description as the example in the video. Keep up the good work.
This is the first big name youtuber I've seen address functions of flaws and their dynamic with character strenghts rather than go simply "character must have flaws to be good!!!".
I swear a lot of "character analysis" nowadays is just a flaw checklist.
My god I really needed this episode! This should have been like, THE FIRST EPISODE. But man, the most important things you learn about righting come when you least expected them!
This was such a reality check for me. For the past few years, I've been sharing almost all of my writing with my boyfriend, and I've started focusing on making characters and plots that *he'll* like instead of writing ones that I like, when the ones that I write just for fun are the ones he likes the most in the first place
I once read an MLP fanfic where the author seemed to be trying to do this for his "Human in Equestria" OC. Throughout the story, he constantly takes the piss out of the "illogical" nature of beginning and end of season villain plots, becomes an insanely rich author by adapting Star Wars, marries Princess Luna, stops the changeling invasion (leading to a "better" outcome which opens negotiations with changelings), learns and instantly rejects dark magic (not for moral reasons, but because it apparently wasn't a significant upgrade), solves Equestria Girls in less than 5 minutes (leading to a "better" outcome where Sunset returns to Equestria), straight up KILLS Tirek, becomes a national hero, ascends to become an Alicorn prince, and generally solves most of the canon plots through pragmatic means without anything like "conflict" or "friendship".
But it's okay! Because he doesn't WANT to be an alicorn or prince, and uses magic to hide his wings! And he's not all-powerful because his alicorn powers are only strong in the dream world! And he often loses petty competitions that have no actual bearing on anything important. And the other characters rib on him, occasionally. That should hopefully distract you from the fact that he essentially draws the entire plot around him like a black hole, is never really portrayed as being wrong or making any significant mistake, and is never called out for his cynical pragmatism in a story about friendship and understanding, nor do his actions have ANY negative consequences for deviating from canon.
He once considered turning a baby to stone as, "an option".