addressing the drama
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Honestly genuine respect for being able to say “I belittled them and I shouldn’t have done that.” I think it’s so easy to not even realize you’ve done it when you get caught up in the moment. Yet another reason Josh is a good role model
It really really is. I hold myself to an impossible standard, and even i still fuck this simple thing up time and time again. Huge respect for Josh. We should all do better.
the original clip wasn't up for very long, maybe 2-3 hours?
@@matrixcom69 I saw most of it and I left a comment on one of his older vids just telling him to pump the brakes and I knew what approach he was AIMING for but not only was he missing it but that he was wading into something he needed to get better informed about first. Props to him for him taking a step back to have a better take and apologizing for his (likely unintended) tone and commentary towards the people he was trying to meet on respectful ground. (and unfortunately unintentionally failing miserably lol.) I have massive respect for him to take a step back and take responsibility for his original approach. Even if I disagreed with his original opening view, disagreements are fine. It was the execution of the disagreement in this case that had real issues.
Now he must go stand in the naughty corner for 30mins
Only nerds and redditors hate the superior chad homenim argument
The real drama is how Josh killed Tera.
let us never forget 😔
singlehanded.....effortless
Ill never forget or forgive
Can't wait for the reaction to the reaction to the reaction that restarts 4 times
My friend studies to become PR, he is also big Warhammer fun (unlike me, I have zero input on that, so sorry, if miss say something). So I asked him about that topic, because he has both professional and personal connection to it.
So, the dry summary:
- The idea itself is not bad, the modifications(?) done to those soldiers, that gender should not be that influential as in IRL. Also its sci-fi to a ridiculous degree.
BUT
- they did this after ignoring female-based fractions for many years, so it comes of very unnatural
- retrospectively changing lore is always a shaky part, that needs to be handled with care. Like giving something cool for fans from that change. But they just shoved in that change and did nothing. Like adding a cool character that manged to get into the troops, despite it being hard (like Josh said).
- "It always been that way" is insulting both to those, who want to preserve lore as much as possible and to those, who wanted the change like that for a long time
- The brutal nature of Warhammer lays good reasons for in-lore sexism (and other -isms as I understand it). By itself its not reason enough to straight up deny female custodians(?), but it should've been addressed in a way it makes sense within general lore.
- the way PR handled it is so unprofessional , that even junior PR-in-taring should be able to do it better
-- Insulting fans for caring about franchise
-- Forcing a divide between fans, forcing yourself in position, where you need to take side and inevitably loosing customers
-- no damage control. The opposite fueling the fire
-- they never addressed the main point of most emotional fans about fear that it all can lead to loss of Warhammer's brutality by smoothing all edgy corners and making it "socially acceptable", when one of the main appeal of franchise is that is the opposite
The part of the in-lore sexism is kind of debatable as far as I'm aware. The fact the sisters of battle exist and that the actual military of almost all factions with genders do use women make that point very moot. Astra Militarum, Eldari, Tau all have female warriors, the Chaos, Tyranid, Necron and Ork don't have genders so it is irrelevant for them.
Speaking from someone who absolutely has no idea about PR, but sometimes I think GW actively encourages dividing the fanbase. Sort of a divide and conquer type of mentality. Then again, I seriously doubt many people at GW are actually good at PR
@ponytoast1231 the males are nearly always physically stronger. I csn point to numerous books, where the sister of battle say this about space marines. Yes they both have power armor, but only 1 can lift a tank with their own muscles, while the other can't. The females in the lore are always psyker strong OR anti psyker. They are never physically stronger. Sexism exist but out if necessity of survival. The only female commander for the Tau was taught BY A MAN, and even then she needs the most advance armor and uses "stealth" to overcome her own physical weakness. Almost all Daemons on 40k take on male Masculinity.
I'm not against any of this, because it makes sense. Wokeness is a cancer on the reality of the world. Weakness using emotional manipulation to gain strength and force people to conform to ideology.
@@ponytoast1231 Sisters of battle exist because the ecclesiarchy was banned from having a male fighting force. It's essentially a faction that exists entirely because of a loop hole in the law.
Sisters of Silence is a better example of an all-female faction that exists entirely on its own merits.
@@TyphusVonElder Sisters of battle are not genetically modified, no shit they are weaker than Space marines.The point is that the faction exists so they are not trying to keep women out of combat. There is 2 named female Tau commanders, that doesn't change anything to the fact they are common in the actual fighting force so they are not excluded. For Chaos, chaos space marines are obviously males, but the daemons themselves are not gendered, except maybe Slaanesh in which case they are hermaphrodites. Daemons don't reproduce and are created from the warp, not gendered reproduction or organs. Even the Daemon princes that were turned from a human are not gendered since female human that were turned are also considered princes.
Physical strength is pretty irrelevant when you have guns that melt people or atomize them with tanks, planes, artillery and orbital bombardment and your enemies are monsters with way more strength than any normal human male or female.
An internet personality taking accountability and admitting they made mistakes? This is why Josh is my favorite creator to watch. Feels good to support a legit good person.
Yeah indeed. Not like the usual streamers or youtubers that gaslight the viewers
i dont see any need for me to make my own post when this guy is basically pulling words out of my head and writing them for me.
Not the first time for Josh, and likely not the last :^)
His response to criticism makes Josh easy to like. His unending barrage of dad jokes make Josh easy to be annoyed by.
His entire argument still boils down to _"Stop _*_*wanting*_*_ a male dominated space, this HAS to change because it's current year"._ That's not a lore argument, and it doesn't work with the Mechanical-Aesthetic of what draws people into collecting the figures either. This is something a "sexual equality" advocate would NEVER say to shows like "the View", Real Housewives, or Taylor Swift fans.
4 minutes in and im like "i missed the drama, what the fuck did you say?"
i didnt catch the full video it got taken down as i watched but some of the stuff i can muster to remember is "i hire the best person for the job if that happens to be a woman so be it" and it was a back and forth with "dave" who was on team no female custodes
Essentially, Josh has no problems with there being female custodes in the Warhammer universe. I thought he was pretty respectful and he swayed my opinion, but there were a lot of people that he offended with the clip, which I can also understand. This all lead to a ton of backlash and hatred thrown his way and no productive conversation was happening, so he removed it.
Same here 😂
@@cruisinagain1698 I don't understand why Josh would need to apologize for having that opinion.
He pointed out that GW has made many canon-breaking choices in the past with 40k, like making the Primarchs into the children of the Emperor, so this Custodes decision is really par for the course as far as GW goes.
"You can't attack someone into agreeing with you!" Words a lot of people need to hear these days.
You're absolutely correct. The problem is, people tend to be tribalistic by nature, and that's something we have to be more conscious of. As humans, we, out of all of the animal kingdom, are sapient enough to be able to kill some of our harmful urges, or at least stifle them to the point where we can function without resorting to base instinct. Though the way social media is set up, people tend to exist in echo chambers that only serve to enhance the worst parts of us. That's why we need to be more self aware of what we say and do.
You sort of can? You can't attack them into *agreeing* with you, but you can coerce them into submitting and cowering in fear. That's basically what all the modern ideology amounts to. Coercion and fear; and that's also why they never seem to be happy or content, because they know they always have to purge any visible disagreement and seek out total obedience, because there is no genuine consensus, only people pretending to agree to avoid negative consequences.
@@zeriel9148 They who?
You need to learn History if you think this is new.
I am Commander Shepard and this is my favorite clip on the Citadel.
I have come here to have a nuanced civilized discussion.
Are you a calm and reasonable person?
Oh you gonna get calm nuanced civilized discussions bucko
I'm hearing ya 👍
I believe in your ability to make society better.
"You gotta do better senator!"
Frankly, even a silly explanation like "Yeah the Emperor woke up from death for 30 seconds, shout 'Muscle Mommies!', made femstodes a thing with psyker bullshit and died again" would be better than a random retcon like they did. The Warhammer universe can be whacky enough that you can slot that lore in. Just put the effort in.
Also:
>Adds female custodes
>Nerfs custodes
What did GW mean by this?
Yeah, this was basically my take on it. It wasn't so much that they changed the long standing lore. GW has every right to change the lore in the universe they created. It was how they went about it and the PR disaster afterwards that annoyed most people. They could have put out any number of little lore tidbits from "long lost records were discovered" or "the research into Primaris marines also resulted in the discovery of ancient techniques" or any number of things. Just saying "it's always been this way" and then literally insulting everyone who even asked why is not the best way to go about things. :P
The best (or worst) part is how stupid easy it is to introduce into the canon as well
"By the will of the gods, they hath spoken - from this day forth, our empire shall invoke the might of every being - regardless of gender. Let this be THE REIGN OF
...THE WARHAMMER"
They where never nefed. They're bad in the meta. Melee is bad in the meta, Chaos is only able to get away with it because it's got the units. Custodes are all big single unit hero dudes who get swarmed.
from now on that explanation is gonna be canon for me :D dont care what others say that is just gold.
they meant they wanted to distract people from their garbage codex and the fact that they where going to raise the prices of models again. So they decided to distract everyone with female custodes.
While you could see it as patronizing to women who would want to enter the hobby, it is more patronizing to the women who are already.
This!!!! Its just insulting to actual women in this hobby. There is also incredibly important all women factions in universe they keep ignoring....
@@derigel7662 I want sister of battle mutli-pose kits, the mono-poses make me sad.
I'd like an all female guard regiment too, in the lore they do exist.
@@CassieRoseX89X all i can give yea is female custodes lol. I wish the all female stuff did get love insead of just hamfisting it.
@@derigel7662 I do hope they keep space marines as just guys though, i don't want female versions of every faction just the ones it makes sense for.
@@CassieRoseX89X ......those are some dangerous thoughts you are having.
I'm actually annoyed at the speed and quantity of comments made by buttpic-bots that keeps popping up in the comments section.
We're not bots. We just really want buttpics.
See? TH-cam comment section can be a place for civilized discussion!
Anyone i disagree with is a bot.
@@suchaone6395but there literally is a wide spread “issue” of bots copy pasting existing comments on a video to appear real, and everyone of them has some half naked woman in the profile pic and suspicious links in the account info.
It's crazy, and the comments frequently get hundreds of likes, from others of their ilk no doubt.
As a hardcore fan of the lore
It’s not *THAT* GW did it
It’s *HOW* they did it
Thanks to the meme comic and the “there always has been”, I’m only going to see Femstodes as Tzeench Daemons
The fucked up so bad with the "they were always there" comment. If they simply went out and said something like blablabla though times need more heroes can not only restrict ourselves to half the population or the custodes made a breakthrough and can now also make women into them. People would have taken it much better than whatever they actually did.
No, it's that they did it at all. Warhammer is a fantasy setting that calls on numerous tropes and real-world historical events to paint a picture. Among them is the ideal of the warrior monk from the crusades. Men of wealth and privilege who gave all of that up to go serve a higher purpose for God. It's a prominent theme in the Custodes and Astartes, so to just decide one day "nah, that theme is gone now," is insulting to the lore and the fans. Being Battle Brothers is a major part of the theme, and changing it to Combat Comrades is cringe.
It's just as bad of a change as if they retconned the Sisters of Battle (warrior nuns that serve the church because they're not allowed to have "men under arms") to include Misters of Battle. It's a change that ruins the lore, destroys the faction theme, and disrespects the fans no matter how it's done.
@@TheOneAndOnlyLUUUU 10.000 custodes, ~60 of them are named and who are male. That still leaves ~9.940 Custodes where 40% or 50% of them might be female.
It’s both to me, that and how
Instead of creating something cool and unique they forcefully shoehorned change into already established lore, and then acted like there wasn’t even a change made
This is not how to do it
We know you want that sweet sweet investment money that needs you to be more… “woke” so to say, but try to actually use your heads to make it fit more into the lore and the setting
Maybe like a illegal underground programs where fanatical women are trying to change themselves in some way to fight the xenos from the shadows, since they can’t do it publicly
Their approach feels lazy and tone deaf
I just don't get where all the "it's how they did it" people where when the Vothan were announced. Who knows maybe you where there but there seems to be a awful lot of new people who are also upset for exactly the same thing and who insist that it has nothing to do with what they did.
my big problem with it, is that they try and shoehorn in female custodes in a way that's just straight up insulting to everyone, while they ignore the women only factions and don't have many if any women models for factions that are mixed. people love sos and sob and also a bunch of women from other factions. give us more and better women models along with cool women like shadowsun, lotara, tarasha, ect
Does Warhammer really not have female representation? Or is it just the case, that you need to have VISIBILITY? Custodes and Marines are poster children of Warhammer for a few reasons, but the most important is economy. Custodes have the best cost to power ratio, so they are a good army to start playing with. Add to that the fact, that Cavill said he played Custodes and you have a recepe for a popular army.
It's all about the clout. Let's look at the armies.
Marines - all male
Custodes - all male
Orcs - agender
Necrons - agender
Tyranids - agender
Chaos - both male and female daemons
Guard - male and female humans
Eldar - male and female xenos
Dark Eldar - male and female xenos
T'au - honestly, not sure, but I assume there are both
Sisters of battle - all female
Sisters of silence - all female
So we have a lot of representation in different armies. What matters is the spotlight, the visibility, the virtue signalling associated with having females specifically and ONLY on a poster.
Then we have the gaslighting of "there were always female Custodes". Yeah? Where? Did any of them do anything of note? I mean... Besides trying to teleport a nuke to Emperor's Palace?
Well you see if they wanted to highlight Sisters of battle and Sisters of silence then they need to spend money and work for it. For my part I really like to hear form Sisters of silence POV.
At least in recent lore, necrons aren't entirely genderless. Male and female necrons do exist, especially amongst the higher echelons of necron society.
@@arnaktfen3937 Okay, good! Then we have even more representation. And on the CEO positions no less!
Okay so I'll start this by saying I think we're on the same train of thought here but getting off at different stations with our conclusions. When talking visibility there's often the issue of tokenism, for a long while sisters of battle could be considered a token female army because they were the only human army with female minis and got next to no support for a long time. This has been rectified in the fast few years with a glut of new kits, characters and novels thankfully. Sisters of silence on the other hand have 3.5 kits across 2 game systems... And all lore appearances have them attached at the hip to custodes or space Marines. GW hasn't given them the chance to shine on their own and on that I think everyone can universally agree. Unfortunately for the mixed gender armies listed, outside of the xenos ironically (because yes necrons are also mixed gender and have gender identities, they just use uniform bodies) the imperial and chaos armies had no female minis and very little female characters in lore. This is also being recently rectified to reflect the stated mixed gender status with female sculpts in kits (new guardsmen kit, cultists for chaos, etc.) and some women taking leading roles in stories tho. This recent trend is essentially GW putting their money where their mouth is when they said these factions are mixed gender for years. The one that bucks that trend is custodes, funny enough that you brought up their status as an entry level army because they share the same qualities that they marked out for stormcast when they designed the entry level AOS army (small model count, minimal skin showing, lots of metallics, helmet options for everything). I think they may be realizing what everyone else has about custodes being beginner friendly but they've made their bed with space Marines. On principle I'm not against Fenske custodes, I think they open up new avenues for character writing given the wider range of activities custodes get up to compared to marines. The twitter response however was taking a torch to icarus' own wings. With the drama dying down now however, we need to wait and see what they manage to do with it in the next year or two to really judge the value of the retcon. If ADB can write something good with this opportunity then it'll be worthwhile in my books at least.
99.9% of the people complaining about representation don't even play the game. They see some art of hyper-masculine Space Marines or see someone else playing an all-male army and think "Hmm, how can I weaponize my own insecurities into this hobby that I don't even like." This is why gatekeeping isn't always a bad thing, because there are actually bad actors out there who like to enter other people's spaces with the intent of changing and essentially ruining them. I wish that wasn't the case, but its just the world we live in now.
The issue with anyone saying "Do better" isnt for example what Josh said it actually means - its for them to signal and make them look better, like "hey, you fucked up, I dont care why but do better, because it sounds cool" (exaggerated)
Its tough to take anyone saying "do better" seriously because they obviously arent saying that out of goodwill expecting some improvement
Additionally, the whole "I dont feel represented" by females is also kinda stupid because Males have always played female game series (i.e. Metroid - Samus, Tomb Raider - Lara Croft), and we have been doing it for years
These are female MCs in the games, representing females, the males didnt have any trouble adapting so why is this made such a fucking big deal?
When someone says ‘Do Better’ what they mean is ‘Do as my side commands.’
Josh, with this clip, is actually ‘Doing Better’
I mean, if all they are saying is "do better" sure..
But if people are explaining why something is wrong, and closing out with "do better" they are just expressing disappointment, likely in someone they felt respect for.
Like, I'm pretty sure I have used those words before when for example someone took a sponsorship with a genuine scam company that with 2 seconds of research they would have known was a well known scam.
Honestly, I think dismissing people wholesale over triggering phrases, or things that you see said by people and bullies who have no good meaning is a very dangerous game, and can lead to you becoming quite the dick sometimes.. and I say that with past experience of being a fairly spiteful person a long time ago.
@@uuu12343 representation is just the excuse a communist uses to gain power over something. Reality means nothing to these cultural locusts, they care about winning, and representation is one of those lies they abuse to break down mild-mannered old white males scared of being called out.
They've been abusing the word they invented, r*cist, for many decades now under the same pretenses. Far more people who aren't r*cist have been called r*cist, than actual bigots, i'd bet my house on it. This is merely a new front in the culture war against marxism, if you can't recognise that it is a war, you've already lost, and your enemy won.
@@it-s-a-mystery Certain groups on the internet have misused many words and phrases for malicious reasons for years now. So terms like "do better" have lost their weight in discourse or no longer have their intended meaning.
Man, i know i was one of the people who put forward polite reasoning because Josh responded to me with "very well put" and I'm just glad of a few things. Firstly, this respectful follow-up is a move of pure integrity and reason. Secondly, i'm just glad that among all the shouting, the reasonable comments were noticed. not to preach but to all those who shouted, i urge you to try the polite approach next time.
And so I said unto Visa, "Take it down."
My friend and I have had a similar discussion over the Primaris release. We have both come to an understanding that while the sculpts look amazing, the way GW introduced them was the dumbest way they could have done it.
I looked into the lore behind it and have found myself less at odds against it, but my friend is working on building a Blood Angels force of pure firstborn.
I still think it's dumb that Cawl somehow had them all in some unknown closet on MARS for Omnissiah's sake... If there was ever a planet where EVERYTHING was catalogued, it would be the HQ of the Adeptus Mechanicus. So a closet full of almost-primarchs for every chapter and all the weapons and equipment to arm them seems like a massive oversight.
It would have been 100x better if they just said "we want to increase the scale for Spercs, all new ones will be bigger" and then have a far better in lore (maybe Cawl) reason for the new armour.
Cawl is just a problem character
You don’t understand the lore than. At all. Pls read more books. Local domain of arch-magos - his own sacred land, when only he- has the right to rule and do what he wants. If you have this domain on mars - showing how big your ba… cogitators.
@@UMTongocawl is the best character in lore after Dante.
@@BloodyArchangelus My frustration at it was largely because I had initially thought GW rolled out the Primaris with no in-universe conflict, I did the work to learn more about what changed between the Astartes and the Primaris. I actually found myself quite pleased when I found out there were members of the Imperium that didn't trust the Primaris at all. It largely mimicked the relationship and understanding that my friend and I shared. Even if I don't like the lore behind them, I still appreciate that there were things for me to learn about them.
The issue I have with the discussion is that there IS female representation in 40k, already present, in large number... In the lore. With 0 changes needed, there is tons! But we don't see any of that on the tabletop. There are tons of female inquisitors, tons of female assassins, tons of female rogue traders, tons of female guard of every rank, a dedicated faction, tons of female eldar, tons of female tau (the top caste tau is female even), etc etc etc. How much of that is represented on the tabletop? Well... Basically Shadowsun (leader of the tau empire forces), a few female eldar, Callidus assassins, and sisters of battle.
I am not asking for female space marines or female custodes, because I do not think it will add anything valuable to the lore or tabletop and conflicts with established canon. I am asking for female guard, which canonically exist, in massive number. I am asking for rogue traders with fieldable armies who are female (and can have power armor!). I am asking for female inquisitor models, since some of the most well known inquisitors (Amberly Vale) is female and often fights in power armor.
Every time there is a decent groundswell going for female guard or anything, it gets drowned out by people who don't seem to actually care about the setting all that much yelling about "BUT WHAT ABOUT FEMALE ASTARTES!" At this point, the dedicated fans of the hobby have had to deal with female astartes so many times that any token female insertion will piss them off. For anyone who wants to see more female representation in tabletop, female astartes (and now custodes) is a poison pill guaranteed to make it harder to get ANY female units.
You know what would be interesting and fun? How about, instead of female custodes or female astartes, we ask for female arbites? Arbites are a super fun faction, there are women in it, and they get basically no love in tabletop. I'd love to see a set of arbites vs cultists, or arbites vs genestealers, or something like that. Have that be a fun thing.
Tbf, a lot of this stuff could also be levelled against the persistent issue of the massive over-representation of Astartes - especially Ultramarines - more generally. An outsider looking in could very easily think that 40k is only about the blue boys when it’s really not. Especially if they get in through RPGs like Rogue Trader or Dark Heresy whereby the desire to play as an Astartes will be met with “No. Would you like to be a Sister of Battle instead?”
@@Nikelaos_Khristianos which is why i want more non-astartes factions to be given center stage. Cause yes, they are pushed way too hard. And myself and no girl i know who is into the hobby likes them (tho some like CSM's). Hell, you go into a store and you'd think there are no women ever on the battlefield, going off their mini's.
@@Nikelaos_Khristianos True for GWs tabletop marketing push, but for the TTRPGs... I mean, without splatbooks nobody play a marine in RT nor DH at all, closest in power would be Imperial Psyker. Even with extra sources, with the classic options that arent outright merging the (doubled stats) Deathwatch game into are the Sisters, either of the Ork options and the Herektek/Heretek variant for Techpriest as far as raw power lore wise (and tabletop side for the first and last) without highly variable items.
@@ANDELE3025 The latter half of your comment is basically how a DM would mechanically approach the desire to be an Astartes. They’d try and figure out, “What role does the player want to fill?” And then work from there - though it does require the DM to explain why they’re suggesting that the player picks a Tech-Priest to start off with, for example, to later become something like a Heretek. They’re assuming they’re wanting to play as a tank, but DH in my experience tends to be a more fun game if you’re working from the basis of a character, not a role nor a class necessarily. I think “who do you want to be?” Rather than “what do you want to be?” Is a more interesting question from a role-play perspective - even though some would argue that’s “just semantics.”
The issue is 40k is, at the end of the day, about Space Marines. It's not about guardsmen or humans in general. It's focus is on the big dick Space marines and how big their dick is. That said you could just ignore marines and go with your own headcannon. That's kind of the beauty of 40k. The galaxy is a big place, and where Games Workshop fails, the fandom will pick up
You're a good man. Thank you for being noble and sharing this way of handling a complex situation.
Visa should have added the ukelele in post.
I didnt watch the other clip, but this one is great. Its extremely difficult to take a step back and adjust your opinion. Its even harder to admit being wrong or when you make mistakes. Great video.
I hear ppl saying men and women need to work together there for female custodes. But they forget the sisters of silence that already do that.
the issue i see the fact that they didnt try to be like we need to open the hiring pool because of how rare they are but like always has been. same energy as there were only ever 9 primarks.
@@mryellow6918 i have no idea what you are talking about
And having female custodies doesn't take away from SoS, the SoS isn't just about being female but being blanks that cover the custodians against psychic threats there main point t isn't that they are female. Having female custodies takes literally nothing away from the SoS it isn't taking away troop options or lore relevance unless we start getting female psyker custodies the SoS still have complete relevance.
Clearly everyone forgot because nobody could hear them.
@@Zeverinsen sure, but every one could feel them when they are around.
Of course the cheapest popular army gets it. I’d love for neglected factions to get new models. I love the sisters of silence design and lore. I’d love a proper model for a named character for them. Obviously I see now they’ll never get it because they’re not popular. I literally stopped building my custodes army. It’s the only way I can play sisters and clearly they’re going to get neglected. It’s the same feeling I got back when I played competitive league and overwatch. Clearly, I shouldn’t play the game if the feeling I got playing those games that made me quit, is popping up in Warhammer. I should have looked into how they go about adding models, the ancient eldar models should have been a clear warning to me.
>I see now they’ll never get it because they’re not popular.
The question here is, not popular by the player or by GW who can't seem to think they are a faction to expand upon.
Good on you for holding yourself to a high standard.
edit: I'm very excited for the upcoming ukulele apology song.
This encapsulates why i love josh so much. Sadly is not common to have the opinion of "attacking those who opose my view does nothing to facilitate understanding, only furthers the divide and its ultimately self-serving".
I vividly remember when he had a discussion with a guy blaming him for the death of tera. Not only he listened to him but also commended him for knowing a second language even if it wasnt very good at it. Thats how you treat people.
I was wondering why that video was gone. Thank you for the explanation, Josh.
It's also important to be cautious of seemingly sensible criticisms being put forward in bad faith. While it's important to have your work reflect your attempts at inclusiveness, every attempt to do better can't be treated with contempt and scrutinized from top to bottom, else people will be less inclined to improve.
This right here is why Josh is one of my favorite content creators. Self reflection is scarce these days when it comes to online debates.
Josh being way more good faith in this video than anyone who has unironically said "be better" or "do better."
I love how the thumbnail makes it look like Josh has glorious flowing hair on one side 😊
bro, I love you and how you think about communication. Keep being an inspiration for people!
The biggest issue I have is that they say this is about inclusivity but that ignores the fact that the fiction was already incredibly diverse. No one complains when the sisters of silence or sisters of battle are female only, even all those “toxic players” we are lead to believe are flooding the fanbase.
It's really not that diverse.
And some people keep insisting that there are no women in the Imperial Guard, so yeah I don't think it'd be hard to find people who complain about the existence of the sisters. And the fact that their army took 22 years to have another physical codex doesn't reveal them as popular.
@@Contevent lots of nonsense there. Any person who says there are no female in the guard aren’t 40k fans. And yea, it is that diverse.
@@Sammo212yeeee, that was a load of huey that came out of that guy. Anyone that's been around the setting for a while knows that there's a load of diversity.
@@draochvar9646 yeah, female guardsman were an important part of the Caiaphas Cain books as far back as 2003! There were even some all female regiments.
@@Contevent If it's women you want in 40k and not the sisters of battle or silence and you want it in first party models?
multiple regiments of IG are either both male and female, or all women in the lore. it comes down to where the planet hails and what makes up the population. even then in raw models theres only a small fraction of the IG regements they ever showed. on the named character side you have Ursula Creed, who is exceedingly highly ranked and currently being sold, but i also recall a time period of a printed women commissar model.
Staying in the imperium Im also aware of the inquisition and the Assassins where women have not only appeared in the roles (Inquisitor greyfax comes to mind), but there's certain assassin roles at least preferred if they aren't only allowed to be crewed by women. there's also the Imperial Knights, where the same case I believe applies in the lore, but the models you play with there are being piloted and the lore per knight is rather individual, so you can kind of just do as you like. as to the mechanicus... there's definitely women in the faction in the lore, but feel free to judge the models for yourself to see if any passes for you, because.. honestly, thats a lot of metal alteration to spot a form in after a certain breakpoint.
the Eldar factions have many women and entire units dedicated solely to women, and their society has had them reach the highest roles possible before. Yvraine deserves a special notice for functionally being part of an act to herald the creation of a new eldar god, and was a big part of one of the earlier editions, but Ill never forget Farseer Taldeer, whether or not she is canon.
The Tau in lore are a force that is both male and female in deployment, with one of their most well known commanders being Shadowsun, a woman.
The Genestealers have women in their ranks, as they are what happens when human forces meet the Tyranid's sway.
the Demons of the setting take on both male and female form... and a lot of other stuff besides.
The Necron royalty have enough of their minds saved to be like people, albeit exceedingly old ones. your in a metal skeleton body either way, but nothing is stopping your upper crust from being women.
Anyway, thats some options on the women front. personally I flitted between IG, Sisters of Battle, and the Orks myself. nothing like the routes a comedy outlook can take an ork mindset.
Reminds me of the time I accused someone of using ad hominem attacks instead of attacking my argument... seconds before my brain giving up and resorting to ad hominem attacks myself...
If they have no argument except attacking you… it’s not really ad hominem to do it back since that is their argument (attacking you) so the counter argument of that is to attack them back.
@@draketurtle4169actually the proper way would be to point out the ad hominen and not engage with them anymore in a genuine manner
If someone's argument is to insult you, there's no argument to be had
I think most of us have been there, unfortunately. Sometimes the offenders manage to push our buttons enough to get their way.
@@draketurtle4169 But that’s why ad hominems suck. They just engender completely cyclical ad hominem attacks that go absolutely NOWHERE. To the extent that I just don’t talk to someone if they turn every group discussion into an ad hominem. It just comes across as pathetic and childish.
Like, “I don’t like how this person speaks - so I’m going to attack the way that they speak” rather than what is actually being said.
My main problem about the female custodes was that it wasn't introduced organically. It was introduced out of the studio's requirement of DEI quotas (and consequent funds obtained from a "good" DEI rating). Had it been introduced years ago by Workshop without any outside factor pressuring them into doing so, I'm sure the community wouldn't even raise an eyebrow, but having it done this way just feels like it's being done to fullfill an agenda and get online good guy points, which then (somehow) reflect into more funding for the movie.
You really are a great person Josh. This was a salve for the soul. Between you and jason thor hall i can finally feel like im listening to measured kind people who just want to make actual positive impacts for everyone. Thanks.
Sounds like the classic, dont piss on my leg and tell me it's rain.
Thanks for owning your mistakes. That's the kind of role model folks need.
Appreciate the nuanced update! Much respect!
40K has TONS of female representation though... its just not "poster child" representation.
"i'm an old man" - you have at least 2 decades before you can play that card, young man!
As someone who doesn't watch the streams live, I spent the first minutes of this video fully thinking it was a bait waiting for a silly punchline.
Well done josh 👏 I have no idea about anything relating to this but I like you're response to these things
Josh Strife? More like Josh DRAMA! JK, love you bro! If even 15% of the internet were like you, then it would be a much greater place!
When I hear "Do better, improve" what I actually hear is "I dont like what you did but cant explain why its wrong so I'm going to say these cult like phrases to try and shame you into doing what I want to signal to my fellow cultists that I am on their side"
"Do better" is mostly used as "Do as I say"
I feel like it’s used in the same way that someone would use “should” - ie: it’s this genuinely coercive and malicious word that reeks of subtle manipulation.
Yeah, I feel that there is a stark divide between the definition Josh laid about about the phrase's content and the context of it's actual use. It's not used as advice, it's used as quote/unquote "subtle" attempt at owning someone and at signaling your comparative righteousness.
Also in corporate speech it's often: "We will do better (job at concealing our hatred for our customers)"
@@mateo0123 If you think so then "you gotta do better, Senator".
"I did something wrong. I belittled people who disagreed with me."
Instant sub. So many people refuse to acknowledge how doing that poisons the conversation, and even more refuse to admit wrongdoing when the fall into this tempting behavior.
Also huge respect on this. This is the kind of standard i try to push myself towards, but its so easy to slip down that slippery slope because youre just so into the moment and the huff and puff of the argument. We should all do better, and this simply existing is a reminder, atleast to myself, that there is lots more work to be done on how i go forwards.
This is why i love josh man. He is so damn wise and humble. Few people would make a video like this and adress their mistakes without seeking people to feel bad for you.
In my experience, having an argument has always been 'kill or be killed' because nobody starts one thinking to themselves, "right, I'mma make my point as a way to educate people and if I'm wrong, I will allow them to educate me". People's egos are too big for that. So now, even if I wanna be civilised, I can't. And if the only way you argue is by verbally brutalising people, at some point that becomes the only way you can argue.
Thats the issue with anonymity on the internet, most people who argue agressively like that on yt etc would never have the courage (or stupidity) to do so to a strangers face. If one has to fear no real consequences to their actions people tend to go overboard sadly.
@@Gnarfendorf Not even anonymity , there is a lot of people who have their names and work known and still behave like baboos but like you said the lack of in person interaction
w
unfortunately it is the majority of arguments made in the modern age and likely throughout history, the whole "us vs them", "right vs left" etc. It's because to be wrong is an uncomfortable thing, they hold their opinion too personally and if you differ from their opinion it is seen as a personal attack on them. From what I've seen/heard it's because most people can't see how taking on criticisms to themselves or their opinions can potentially shape them into a better person. Plus even those that can process arguments or debates positively are still human and can make mistakes
I argue for exactly that reason, though. And I succeed in informing or persuading people often enough.
Idk if its the same for everyone else but for me the learning part comes after the argument has happened, when you've settled down and thought about it for a bit. While in the argument you are making your best case. Not all arguments are useful, infact I think most probably aren't useful these days. But as Josh said, when its an isolated conversation/argument it becomes way more civilized.
Idk if its performative as Josh says but I think in a public setting you're way more on guard and you're not willing to drop your guard when in a mass group of people. In a private conversation you are more readily going to drop your guard and listen/know you'll get your piece in too and have time to evaluate the conversation.
I personally hate "do better" because it seems to only be used now to imply that you doing better would be adopting my stance because it's better than yours.
Glad to have this video back online, i was watching a previous version when it was set to private. I found the whole thing on twitch though.
I really like Josh's approach to this, i was annoyed that the idea of female Custodes because it felt like one of those "modern audiences" changes i had no idea about the constant changes to the lore, this makes sense then or at least it doesn't sound forced like i thought it was.
In this case, it seems to be one of those "modern audiences" kinda change. Apparently, Amazon is to blame. If you want to delve deeper try ArchCast's videos, for example, where he goes into more detail about it.
This should just be the normal way of thinking. Not many people really want to sit and reflect to own up, just generally, but you did it without really anyone telling you that you should. You lead a path most dont take, but should.
Most factions except Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines have plenty of female representation. The face of the Eldar has been a female Farseer since like the early 2000s. In novels you got some pretty cool female Imperial Guard. Chaos Daemons have Slaneesh. Chaos has female cultists. The face of the Inquisition has been a female Inquisitor for a long time. It's been there if you look or have been involved in the hobby.
Played Warhammer Chaos Gate. The MC Inquisitioner who gets the respect of the space marines and does the heroics is a lady. A badass one.
And the large amount of assasins and rogue traders
Wouldn’t slaanesh more accurately be genderfluid?
@@LuxxyLux1 yes, but like that does tbf kinda demonize it.
Saying "Do better" or "be better" is not only self-righteous and arrogant, but counter-productive. Lead by example, not by berating people. You can't fight fire with fire, nor hate with hate; it's like trying to to clear ripples from a pond by throwing rocks.
Props on saying you were wrong, but;
We need to get over this idea that people need representation in everything. Women have representation in 40k. Eldar and Dark Eldar have women, Sisters exist, etc. If you can't enjoy something because you're not in it, that's a you problem.
Regardless of why the Custodes started as a male faction, they were. Taking something uniquely male and giving it women is bad, just like doing that in the other direction would be bad. Look what happened to the Boy Scouts of America. Destroyed.
Men need male spaces, and there's nothing wrong with an all male, or an all female, all black, all Asian, and so on and so forth. If you expand your horizons, you can find yourself identifying with things that don't look like you, and that's how we find true equality.
I know nothing about warhammer, but well done josh, takes alot for someone to air out their introspection after making a devisive statement. I aspire to be as level-headed as you are.
Regardless of your stance on this, do GW come across as a company that have any respect for their customers?
Modern GW doesn't. Way back in the day, you could substitute a can of coke for a dreadnought and no one would bat an eye. These days, no such laxity. I remember taking my Salamander army to a GW shop and it being perfectly chill. Within the last decade or so, they want you in their shops to buy as much as possible and as soon as they've extracted every cent or penny they could get from you, they're practically kicking you out the door till you have more money to spend.
@@Sujad Yeah mate agreed.
I don't think they do at all. But only because of their predatory pricing. I could really care less if they change fictional lore.
They also did the "it's always been there" with the Rogal Dorn Tank for the Imperial Guard so you kinda have to suspend your disbelief that this tank which was released a couple of years ago has been fighting for millenia on the side of the Imperium.
But how is that a problem?
I mean, they did the same with every additional faction. Like, when they introduced the Necrons, it was the largest "They've always been there" of all time.
@@Contevent lore says something cannot exists? no, we dont do that anymore.
No, you're confusing it with in lore. They told a customer who asked the official channel WHY they were added. It wasn't in a novel or anything, they tried to retcon real life.
@@Jesujej I mean we never did that in 40k.
It's a setting that has retcons all over the place. Like a superb painting different artists reworked once every months for decade.
@@mandowarrior123 No they did not. The tweet, and this all is just one social media message, stated that there has been women in the custodes since the first ten thousand were created. This is clearly stating in-universe now after the retcon there has always been women in the Custodes. I really hate that this has become like a major point of contension because some people (not all) want to take this into culture war territory.
I mean at the most it could be that there was a single tweet made by the social media team that was not maybe the wisest choice of words. But in my I will say like 15 to 20 years in the hobby have I seen this much of a controversy from a retcon. Only thing I can think of is the Primaris Marines and that was kind of not a retcon. That is the only controversy that is this large.
My opinion why this got such a large thing is because agitators who want to stoke the flames of the culture war did so on twitter. Because in twitter it is very easy for outsiders to go and stroke flames into this kind of thing. You know where this was not a big thing? Reddit. For all of its faults 40k and Custodes specific subreddits didn't have anywhere near this level of controversy. Most of the topics put up about this were met with "Who the fuck cares?" attitude.
And just to add my counter point to the other usual note about this over shadowing Sisters of Silence: Sisters of Silence are not super-humans and in addition they are probably the worst representation. They are literally making people feel worse by their existence.
Also one of the old lore writers came out of the wood work to talk about why they were originally instructed not to make female Custodes when the Custodes came to 40k as a playable army. None of the models would be female so the higher ups didn't want there to be lore about female Custodes. So now that we have them maybe we can receive some badass women Custodes models at some point. (Also some nifty Black Library books featuring some)
TLDR: Controversy in my opinion very much overblown. There are few good reasons to be sad about this change and most of the controversy is driven by non-hobbyist for culture war reasons.
As someone who's not into 40K, and have just seen other people's takes on this topic, Ireally appreciate you being transparent and honest.
Performative argumentation is the tumor of modern politics. I don't know how many times I run into people IRL and everything is chill and then their social media is a broadcast. It is all so fraudulent and I prefer the IRL connections.
Think about the implications if female Custodes really had existed for 30 years of storytelling covering 10,000 in game years, and not one of them had ever done anything consequential enough to notice. That is a staggering amount of accidental chauvinism. You would have to be one of the most exceptional women that ever lived to make the cut, and then spent the next 10 Millenia just being completely overshadowed by men. What an insult.
Not a 40k fan at all. No reason, just never tried it. But what I can say is I massively respect Josh for this. We all make mistakes and get emotive about things when we shouldn't.
I just want to ask one thing though, just because it came up on the video. Why is it inherently a problem if it's a male dominated space? I think the reason that we see such frustration at topics like this, is that there is a prevailing notion that everything has to be for everyone. I don't believe that. Sure, that's not to say people should be kept out. But if a hobby has naturally skewed massively into having one main demographic, why is that seen as an issue (I'm not talking about from a business pov, obviously more people = more money in theory, I just mean culturally and socially)
For reasonable people that is not an issue at all. The people argueing inclusion in everything is needed habe lost the plot and in 99% of all cases have zero understanding of whatever they are trying to force themself into.
I think it's because "male dominated" could make someone think it's the "no girls allowed" sign. Which isn't true because anyone anywhere can get into 40k, they can kit bash, they can 3D print something, etc but... people don't think.
@@infinitecurlie that makes it even worse, when you try to force changes where none are required out of a lack of understanding.
@@infinitecurlie yep that's definitely it. To some people, anything that's mostly male is seen as a problem and must be made right, potentially even with forced inclusion.
Having some space be "male dominated" isn't a problem - it's more of an observation, a phrase to describe a statistic. However, it can SOMETIMES be a symptom of some problem that effectively gatekeeps a demographic from that space/hobby/industry.
Take economics for instance - it is male dominated industry, which isn't inherently wrong, but when you start looking into why that is, you start seeing countless stories about bias against women (for instance, nor being taken seriously just because you're a woman or being heckled due to your presentation because of it) or just plain sexual assault. Unsurprisingly, those things can cause women to drop out of the industry.
I appreciate your even take on this. "It's always been like this" is just how GW does a lot of retcons and this is a minor one all things considered. No specific lore existed saying it wasn't possible, and GW authors had been trying to include female Custodes for a long time now. They were told no because the brand new model line was already made as all male.
I understand people's dissatisfaction but I think people would have been unhappy regardless of how GW handled it. People hated Primaris and they had massive new lore to justify their existence. GW catches flak either way. I think it's a positive change.
I didn't see the original video, nor do I have an opinion on the matter, but hats off to you for your introspection and the resulting actions.
Joke's on you; I love getting into the TH-cam comments section and inserting nuanced takes into tribalized conversations.
To my own detriment same.
He didn't say people don't or don't enjoy doing it, just that it's not the best way to go about it. But you're welcome to make your stand and I support your ability to make that choice. Go forward brave keyboard soilder *salute
@@SirFluffy100 Warrior implies I'm fighting a battle. I think of it more like a chef, stirring the pot and adding a bit of spice to a conversation.
There is a modern coloqualism in my language and it best translates to "Man of Honor" or technically to gentleman but that does not quite grasp the concept, that is you.
Honestly I think I have my most interesting productive social media discussions on youtube.
You are given them too much grace, they mock, belittle, review bomb, spit on others daily on the internet and they act as brigades. If you give them too much grace, they feel validated in the harassing they do regularly on other people and creators online. And It is going on from so many years I am personally tired of having the moral high ground with those people.
Appreciate the honesty atleast. Love your content man and I hope more actual civilized discussions get produced from this.
Wish more people would take this stance about how to deal with disagreements.
I'll say this. I don't think there's any ill intent coming from people who enjoy the traditional gender role aesthetic and want to live out that fantasy through a game. 40K isn't for my tastes at all, but I do have over a thousand hours in Team Fortress 2, and I don't think it's a coincidence that all the mercs in that game are male. And it's not because of some evil reason. I wouldn't want them to change TF2's vision just to give women representation, it would change the vibe of the game. Recently, I've played a game called Rabbit & Steel which only contains female bunny characters. I believe Touhou also only has female characters. It's a part of the aesthetic. You don't see men begging for male representation in those games, that would be annoying.
That's because you don't have to scour games for characters that are like you. Games with female protagonists are a rarity, and often done solely for men to ogle (see: Stellar Blade). So no, men aren't begging for inclusion, because they're already considered the default.
@@yoyopron (Edited) You know what? There is no way to respond to this without sounding like a jerk, because your comment is made in bad faith and you're playing the victim, on top of using the eye for an eye mentality. There is so much wrong here, that it's basically like responding to bait.
I never played the victim. I simply gave you facts: most video game protagonists are male, and men don't need to look hard to find representations of themselves. Female protagonists exist, but they are much less common. The idea that men aren't asking for inclusion in one of the rare all-female games is a false equivalency.
But given that you're intent to assign ill intent, that's really all I have to say about this.
@@yoyopron You should never demand that artists include you in media for which you were not the intended target audience.
There is never going to be a world where each and every piece of media includes people of every type. Your post implies that you won't stop until you achieve this, but that would rob people of their artistic freedom (and make everything feel the same). Target audiences are not an evil concept.
People are free to make what they want to make, for whatever audience they intend to please. So when outside factors cause that to change, don't be surprised when the original audience decides to pack their bags and leave.
"Do better" invariably translates to "do what I tell you, forever."
its about as useful as "go read a book"
means nothing
I am the demographic they're trying to win over and i hate this. I'm a woman that really enjoys warhammer 40k, and i don't want the boys' toys, i have my own. My sisters of battle, inquisitors, Rogue traders, etc are WAY cooler than the custodes and marines. The problem isn't representation, it's being ignored. As a woman, this move made me honestly hate the direction this franchise is going. It's the wrong move. Insulting, demeaning, and stupid.
I think public discussions are often more heated, because people feel seen. They feel exposed. Like everyone is looking at and judging them so they can risk the embarrassment, of being incorrect.
Going to be honest... I didn't expect their was going to be drama. I thought he was trolling with the title, and i'm a little sad it wasn't a troll...
"Do better" is something that I can only see as a meme from a B-tier Marvel movie that people took as a line to use in real life for the "cool" factor 😂
It is, it's an incredibly smarmy way of being holier than thou to people and writing off their concerns or arguments without giving them any kind of faith.
@@Sujad smarmy is a great word to use to describe "Do better", I forgot about that word 🤔
It *WAS* a line used at the end of the Falcon & Winter Soldier series. That series wasn't close to B-tier...
@@Lukus80 that makes is funnier 🤣
@@Sujad Can't take people seriously if they think that highly of themselves and so little of others, two words that tell me someone isn't worth talking to
Absolutely applaud this level-headedness.
Something to take home from, for sure.
This whole process (that video and this one) is exactly why i respect josh.
The vest abides.
We already have the sisters faction, why not expands their story instead?
Why not both?
@@Contevent Because one is respecting the past/current fans, the other isn't.
@@Monstercloud9 Imagine if someone said that for every faction after the Eldars.
"Why not make a story about an Eldar woman instead of making up women in X/making a woman only faction? That's disrespecting the fans!"
@@Contevent...not remotely similar, because you're talking about making up entirely new factions, we're talking about using pre-existing factions and expanding on them.
@@Monstercloud9 Ho I'm not necessarimy talking about new factions. Like women in the Imperial Guard or non-caucasian people in the Space Marine.
I know there are, but it wasn't explicitly stated at first. Someone had to say that yes, they exist.
"Do better" literally just means 'Fuck you" for people who think they are too superior to say 'fuck you'.
Your ability to self-reflect and express yourself and your thought process is why your videos are some of the best quality breakdowns on this platform. And why you're a channel pretty much everyone that is reasonable and not fully internet-rabid can enjoy regardless of thier personal views. Cudos sir for making things better.
Once more, great respect for you for this
Never understood the "I'm not represented in this media, therefore you need to change it to fit me, then I will consume it" stance.
It's called 'narcissism'
This is literally just how supply and demand works?
I don't think anyone is actually saying that.
Remember that the pandering is coming from the top not the bottom.
40k is super popular with the left because it's a giant parody of fascism, nobody asked for this.
@randomvideoboy1 There was a *demand* for female custodes, and Games Workshop *supplied* .....
Also the people(myself included) asking for female custodes are already fans of 40K and we have been for years now.
"No one in their right mind would want to only consume media that has characters that are just like them."
I agree, I think you'll struggle to find a single person who thinks like this though, never mind someone trying to get into 40K like wtf XD
@@theundying6640there are also women that didn’t want the lore to change.
Saying “change the lore to match my views” is extremely narcissistic. Should they crowdsource all new stories now so they can make sure the mob approves?
Do you promise to buy more models as long as they do exactly what you want?
HI TWITCH!
Man i hope the strong positive response you're getting from the minority that are watching this outways the jargon coming from the potential hate you're forseeing. This workd needs spaces like this, where being wrong or having different opinions isnt a death sentence but rather a chance to communicate and understand. Hats off to you and very well put
For as funny and entertaining as Josh is in his "Worst MMO" series and other edited videos, this kind of quality is what really has me sticking around. The words of wisdom, the ability to self-reflect, the willingness to have a conversation, and the kind of personality that allows for him to admit when he's wrong and learn from it - all these feel very lacking in the world and especially in online discourse. It feels great to have this kind of role model and someone to aspire to be more like. And while I didn't disagree with his original take on the Warhammer 40k discourse (I'm not into the game myself but have seen a lot about it), I didn't see anything wrong with *how* he said what he said until he brought it up here. Huge props to him honestly.
I still disagree with "representation" comment lol. How can you feel not "represented" when most factions are nonhuman? What if all of them were nonhumanoid?
Are all tyranid players bugs?
Are all necron players cyborg mummies?
This rethoric heavily implies women at large are really superficial and can only connect to things that are exactly like them
Which, I mean, doesn't sound right, does it?
Do you want to know how representation works?
Because there is a reason actually, why it can be important to some people to be represented in the Custodes.
@@Contevent there is a reason, I know, I just personally think it's dumb
@@Contevent I don't want to come off as ignorant, and my previous comment is not as in depth as I wanted, but I honestly do think if race or gender difference stops you from feeling represented - that's either on you or the author
Because I DO feel represented by barely humanoid girly piece of phospophilite
Because I DO feel represented in struggles of someone like deedlit, who is worried about missing out on creating more meaningful relationships with those she cares about before their passing
And I know there are women who feel represented by Luke Skywalker or necrons (to tie it back closer to the conversation starter, yes, I know a girl with a necron army)
Why then , exactly, should retroactively changing lore, that quite a lot of people are invested in, be needed?
Because GW thinks women at large are superficial and NEED this pandering?
Don't you think that it's quite insulting?
@@Contevent sisters of battle are cooler anways
@@Russian_engineer_bmstu I do not actually.
You are right that you can feel represented by... by well anything, because representation stands on 3 pillars:
-Our identities are determined by how people look at us.
-We have multiple identities
-The importance of our identities can be forced on us by society.
First, we often says to teens to not take into consideration what people think of them, to not let that affect their self worth. Well, we say that because that's what naturally happens. We exist through the perception of others, if you say to a child that he is fat, he will be fat in his mind regardless of the reality. The stronger our personality becomes, the harder it is to impose new identities on us, but it still very much happens to adults.
Second, we have multiple identities. Someone can consider himself white, a man, but also a parent, a Metallica fan, a neat freak, unambitious, etc...
We have plenties of identities, they just don't have the same importance to us. For example if their identity as a neat freak is greater than their love for W40k, they may prefer never going to a convention because of all the sweaty, smelly people there.
It's a matter of priority.
Third, society around us can force us to have identities. If a black woman wants to be an engineer, but every treats her either as a woman or as a black person first and foremost, and not as an engineer, well being a black woman will become a huge part of her identity.
To take your example, you can identify yourself in character of other genders and other races because, well, your own gender and race isn't that important to you.
It's not the case of everyone, and especially not the case of people suffering discrimination. And it's not even their choice, it is because of discrimination that it became a part of their identity.
So why putting women in fiction is not pandering to the audience, insulting them by saying "Ha! You're so superficial you can't identify to someone who doesn't look exactly like you!"?
Well, because to some women, being a woman is a huge part of their personality, whether they want it or not. And being represented in as vast an array of job, motivation, occupation, and physical form is a net positive as it make them feel more comfortable with who they are and encourages them to become whatever they want.
Josh is so great. Always the bigger man. I could never 😅
"To believe in an ideal, is to be willing to betray it" -Kreia from Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2
you are a great character josh. please dont let the hate get you down.
Why does everyone say "it's a male dominated hobby" or "male dominated (area/job/whatever" like that's a bad thing, I haven't seen a single person pushing for more men in female dominated areas that wasn't in direct response to something else.
Perhaps the issue is that women do not feel welcome in male dominated hobbies whereas the reverse is more welcoming. No one said male dominated is a bad thing in this video, but claims of it being bad need to be heard in context to see what the actual meaning is.
@@seifer447 You serious? A woman will generally be warmly welcome into any male dominated space (although awkwardly so if you're entering a space filled with awkward nerds) as long as she displays competency/knowledge and that she isn't trying to change what it is to something else. A man will in general be mercilessly mocked and treated as less of a man in the opposite case ("What are you? A woman?").
@seifer447 The irony is that strong arming change into male dominated spaces is only going to reinforce the biases and reasoning behind why they don't welcome females into them. It turns into "see, this is why we gatekeep" so it becomes a nasty endless cycle.
@@seifer447 Exactly. When you can't enter spaces without either being hit on or being tested to prove you're a "real" fan, it's not welcoming.
@@yoyopron That has nothing to do with sex though. You see that across multiple fandoms.
Still annoying amazon pressured gw into the 'retcon' :/
Respect for josh for acknowledging his mistakes in the previous video.
strong man. Didn`t see the clip, but didn`t need to. It is not easy to admit mistakes, especally in public. I applaud you not for for changing your mind in this, but in demonstrating selfreflection and showing in a more and more bluntet / controversial world, that holding back a second and think about one self can be done.
I dont see the problem 40k beeing a male doninated hobby. I mean, do we have to make a remake of despreate house wifes, that fokuses more on the male characters and add more action to get men to watch the thing. Cant bois have their toys, while girls have teirs and if one enjoys the other, they enjoy it because of what it is, not despite of it. This whole discussion was as loud as it was for a reason and i hope all involved partys learned their lessons and dont try something like this again. Gate keep or be gatekept.
How anyone could hate on Josh is so insane to me. Such a legit good and genuinely kind person. I hope this does actually result in less hatemail, send that shit to someone who deserves it.
The culture war crowd are whipped into such a frenzy they'll attack literally anything. Hades 2 is an S tier game that was getting hate for having black characters.
@@anaguma90 That happened with the first game as well - people hated the fact that Ares and Athena were black. Even though Ethiopians exist and are mentioned plenty of times in both Iliad and Odyssey (two of our oldest extant Greek texts) and would have represented these gods as representations of themselves - because that’s how idol worship works if you represent your gods as humans. I took it as a neat nod to acknowledge just how many people saw themselves as being Greek because the cultural identity itself was much more widespread than it is today. But there are quite a few people who are married to this totally whitewashed perception of Ancient Greece - often without really knowing who we’re actually talking about when classicists mention “the Greeks.”
@@Nikelaos_Khristianostldr: we wuz greeks and shiet
Except that video clip had him coming off as Very closed minded, reading out the Twitter "approved opinion" verbatim. And now he is realizing he should have done research before spouting out nonsense
@@Nikelaos_Khristianos I don't even really care of some intellectualised reasoning for it. It just doesn't matter much.
Old man Josh giving us another banger of a video! Learning, growing, maturing never stops.
It's way more difficult to say you were wrong about something and change your opinion about it than it is to stick with the same opinion you've always had. Much respect, glad to see you addressed this even though for me personally it was no big deal
ngl, when I hear 'do better,' I penta-quadruple down.
Tbh, I'm not into Warhammer at all, but in other media inclusion initiatives have almost always felt patronising.
How incredibly childish and petulant of you.
@@Toastybees k
"Do better" is, separated from context, meaningless. It can be incredibly valid or just outright stupid and toxic, depending on what the specific issue is.
@@Toastybees No, I agree. It's incredibly childish and patronizing thing to say, "do better" is. There are so many better ways to say that that don't make you come across like a twerp.
@@Toastybees Hmm, yes, shallow and pedantic.
_"do better"_ is one of the goofiest statements of the past 5 years...especially when you hear someone say it. it's way more enraging, to me, than some game i'm never gonna play ruining their own backstory but i hate 'internet talk'. also, a thought: what men have slowly found out over the past 13 years is no, it's not ok that you have things just for you....and it has less to do with equality than it does money. basically, it's *YOUR FAULT* {guy reading this at home} that you didn't buy enough silly miniatures lmao.
Basically it's capitalism and equality sells
"go read a book!!"
Long time 40k player who runs exclusive Slaanesh just so I could have my bright pink ladies charge across the field and take apart all those grim dark big boys. The game really needs more female representation and I am overall glad to see it, but you make some solid points on how we discuss the matter and taking the time to address not just the issue but how we communicate is both classy and a net gain for positive discourse on the internet. Thanks for that!
It doesnt need female representation or any other. Need is a necessity.
I wish more people would behave like you when it comes to internet discourse. I don't really have an opinion on the whole Custodes thing because I don't play 40k, but I genuinely respect anyone who's willing to say "Yeah okay this wasn't a good way to go discussing it." Actual discussion has degraded to twitter outrage takes and potshots at people who you disagree with/don't like. Mad respect to Josh for bringing some class back into the internet.