Very interesting observations. They suggest that the 'deficit' in social interaction ascribed to autistic people is not really a deficit, but is the result of an incompatibility between neurotypical modes of social interaction and autistic modes of social interaction.
@Robert Smith lol. That's generally how's I just am with most new people, who have the potential of becoming friends or at least dependable acquaintances.. "I don't know if it's going well, just yet, but it's going better than badly, and I'll settle for that." Is a common feeling for me most of the time.
Something I feel is missing here is the fact that NT’s may more often report a slightly exaggerated positive impression due to a) social conformity and b) having the experience of more positive interactions in everyday life. These two factors predispose a NT person to expect a relatively positive interaction and hence inform their reaction to experiences. The opposite could be said to be true of autistic persons in that we have a predisposed expectation of less positive interactions borne out of many experiences of this in everyday life. However, the social conformity factor would be viewed differently. For the NT, social conformity is the norm and viewed as a participatory reciprocal experience one barely notices, if at all, and if interacting with another NT, any negative reaction is likely to be experienced as mild to negligible and/or played down in subsequent reports in line with social conformity, which again will be unnoticed or insignificant from the perspective of the NT. An analogy would be of a fish being unaware that it swims in water. In the case of the autistic person, social conformity is viewed as something imposed from the outside, it is a pressure of expectation effectively coming from the other person. In order to have an acceptable interaction the autistic person has to take this into account and intellectually negotiate to socially conform, whereas the NT does not have this extra intellectual burden - they don’t have to do it on purpose, they just do it without really noticing. For the autistic person this takes up processing power and effort/energy - we have to really concentrate and keep making adjustments, like trying to ride a bike exactly on a painted line. This extra requirement of concentration is responsible in some part at least for things like not making eye contact, not instigating conversation and keeping it going, lop-sided reciprocity, noticing implication and inference, going off topic and general misunderstanding, getting stuck on talking about personal interests and detail, and the reading of body language/facial expression etc. My conjecture is that, contrary to popular opinion, the autistic person does not suffer from poor theory of mind and a lack of empathy, but this is simply the way it appears to the NT.
i understand your point but i think that this does not apply universally to autistic people.Yes, some are too preoccupied with just functioning at an accepted degree, but some really just are too emotionally detatched/methodical in their information intake to really feel the empathy/sympathy of the conveyed info. Like copying a poem word by word without actually emotionally taking in the meaning behind them.
@@YeahButCanISniffUrPantsFist Are you saying this out of personal experience as an autistic person or is this just an observed impression from a nt point of view?
I've been devouring videos on autism for the last few weeks and you are the first autistic person I've seen who gets this idea. I agree with everything you've said except your final conjecture. Everyone else I see whines about NTs being difficult and not doing enough to accommodate autistics. This arises from multiple intersecting phenomena, the primary of which is projection. Society, both the religious and liberal, fed us an insidious lie our entire lives that we are all basically the same. In the case of the religious, for Western civilisation in particular, there's the old "God created us all in his own image and we are all equal in his eyes" nonsense. This idea actually fed directly into the liberal movement and then progressivism such that there is now an atheistic religious belief that we are all essentially equal and the same. If somebody is not behaving in an acceptable way, then it must be because society broke them somehow. Now, if we NTs project our own motives and reasons for behaving in particular ways onto the behaviours of those who AREN'T actually "the same", we conclude that their negative behaviours must be deliberate because it would require US to be deliberately motivated to perform those same actions. This only happens because we are brainwashed by society to believe that we're all the same. You touched on this when talking about the number of interactions each neurotype has. If we are to assume that, say, 5% (and I'm being generous imho) of the population falls outside the normal distribution of neurological configurations, it would mean that NTs will encounter only 1 in 20 NDs in some random sample of interactions. Our training data is on 19 NTs with 1 ND. If the ND is behaving in a non-conforming way, we're going to assume that it's because they're a bad faith NT actor and write them off. On the flipside, NDs have a HUGE training set of 19 NTs out of 20 to learn on so they have lots of data to learn how to fit in. That said, I liken the dilemma of neurodivergents to that of an immigrant to a foreign country. I can't reasonably demand Chinese to all speak to me in English let alone say French. That would be narcissistic AF. Unfortunately, life's not fair and NDs have drawn the short straw. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the whole world to change its ways just for you. That's literally what narcissism is. To wit, the chart at 9:03 would suggest that NTs are more accepting of austistics than the reverse.
I'd like to see a version of this with autistic people and people with ADHD. Anecdotally, we seem to get along. Also,=I love that nonbinary identities weren't erased in this. That's important when researching autistic people. It's just a fact that a statistically significant number of us are nonbinary.
I have been diagnosed with adhd for 7years but im just now starting to explore autism. We seem to have a lot of common experiences and anecdotes. Some psychiatrists think theres some sort of relationship between the two. Now i want to make some autistic friends.
As someone with autism, there isn't really other way you can approach a study like this honestly. Autism isn't very well understood, as it's such a huge spectrum with all kinds of variety. That being said, it is hard to measure not only something as subjective and complex as rapport but then translating that into statistics as well. We're going to be treated like objects because we are not understood, hence this study, and many, many others. I get that it's infuriating, but there really isn't a better test than forming a claim and using compliment of the level of significance, the "p values" you see on the graphs, in order to communicate accurate data.
My autism is easier to notice when ppl see me interact with people who i know don't understand me very well, but I'm told I shouldn't make such assumptions. But apparently I'm being kind of accurate, it's just not polite to act like i know those kinds of things or I'm told it's a "self fulfilling prophecy" instead of just pattern recognition.
Now let’s do a study of communications between autistic people and narcissistic people, if you can actually find any with a diagnosis of NPD. The gap in my opinion would be similar to the Grand Canyon.
I lived with one for 3.5 years, and he screamed at me frequently, for hours on end. Sometimes my ears would be ringing afterward. It was a nightmare. Communication was just impossible. 😖
I believe this data is being a bit misinterpreted. See how nts cope in a situation with nt that think the nt is nd. Autistic people communicate in a world of normie. Normie clearly has significant trouble with different.Nd suffers from this.Some of your data reflected this. Nts have a lot of trouble designing accurate tests- should have gotten an aspie to do it.
Very interesting observations. They suggest that the 'deficit' in social interaction ascribed to autistic people is not really a deficit, but is the result of an incompatibility between neurotypical modes of social interaction and autistic modes of social interaction.
@Robert Smith lol. That's generally how's I just am with most new people, who have the potential of becoming friends or at least dependable acquaintances.. "I don't know if it's going well, just yet, but it's going better than badly, and I'll settle for that." Is a common feeling for me most of the time.
I was thinking these results seem to suggest that it’s not autistic people who have the social deficits - but rather the neurotypical people who do.
Something I feel is missing here is the fact that NT’s may more often report a slightly exaggerated positive impression due to a) social conformity and b) having the experience of more positive interactions in everyday life. These two factors predispose a NT person to expect a relatively positive interaction and hence inform their reaction to experiences.
The opposite could be said to be true of autistic persons in that we have a predisposed expectation of less positive interactions borne out of many experiences of this in everyday life. However, the social conformity factor would be viewed differently. For the NT, social conformity is the norm and viewed as a participatory reciprocal experience one barely notices, if at all, and if interacting with another NT, any negative reaction is likely to be experienced as mild to negligible and/or played down in subsequent reports in line with social conformity, which again will be unnoticed or insignificant from the perspective of the NT. An analogy would be of a fish being unaware that it swims in water. In the case of the autistic person, social conformity is viewed as something imposed from the outside, it is a pressure of expectation effectively coming from the other person. In order to have an acceptable interaction the autistic person has to take this into account and intellectually negotiate to socially conform, whereas the NT does not have this extra intellectual burden - they don’t have to do it on purpose, they just do it without really noticing. For the autistic person this takes up processing power and effort/energy - we have to really concentrate and keep making adjustments, like trying to ride a bike exactly on a painted line. This extra requirement of concentration is responsible in some part at least for things like not making eye contact, not instigating conversation and keeping it going, lop-sided reciprocity, noticing implication and inference, going off topic and general misunderstanding, getting stuck on talking about personal interests and detail, and the reading of body language/facial expression etc.
My conjecture is that, contrary to popular opinion, the autistic person does not suffer from poor theory of mind and a lack of empathy, but this is simply the way it appears to the NT.
i understand your point but i think that this does not apply universally to autistic people.Yes, some are too preoccupied with just functioning at an accepted degree, but some really just are too emotionally detatched/methodical in their information intake to really feel the empathy/sympathy of the conveyed info. Like copying a poem word by word without actually emotionally taking in the meaning behind them.
Ex-act-ly.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
👌
@@YeahButCanISniffUrPantsFist Are you saying this out of personal experience as an autistic person or is this just an observed impression from a nt point of view?
Excellent post. I strongly agree.
I've been devouring videos on autism for the last few weeks and you are the first autistic person I've seen who gets this idea. I agree with everything you've said except your final conjecture.
Everyone else I see whines about NTs being difficult and not doing enough to accommodate autistics. This arises from multiple intersecting phenomena, the primary of which is projection. Society, both the religious and liberal, fed us an insidious lie our entire lives that we are all basically the same. In the case of the religious, for Western civilisation in particular, there's the old "God created us all in his own image and we are all equal in his eyes" nonsense. This idea actually fed directly into the liberal movement and then progressivism such that there is now an atheistic religious belief that we are all essentially equal and the same. If somebody is not behaving in an acceptable way, then it must be because society broke them somehow.
Now, if we NTs project our own motives and reasons for behaving in particular ways onto the behaviours of those who AREN'T actually "the same", we conclude that their negative behaviours must be deliberate because it would require US to be deliberately motivated to perform those same actions. This only happens because we are brainwashed by society to believe that we're all the same.
You touched on this when talking about the number of interactions each neurotype has. If we are to assume that, say, 5% (and I'm being generous imho) of the population falls outside the normal distribution of neurological configurations, it would mean that NTs will encounter only 1 in 20 NDs in some random sample of interactions. Our training data is on 19 NTs with 1 ND. If the ND is behaving in a non-conforming way, we're going to assume that it's because they're a bad faith NT actor and write them off. On the flipside, NDs have a HUGE training set of 19 NTs out of 20 to learn on so they have lots of data to learn how to fit in.
That said, I liken the dilemma of neurodivergents to that of an immigrant to a foreign country. I can't reasonably demand Chinese to all speak to me in English let alone say French. That would be narcissistic AF. Unfortunately, life's not fair and NDs have drawn the short straw. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the whole world to change its ways just for you. That's literally what narcissism is. To wit, the chart at 9:03 would suggest that NTs are more accepting of austistics than the reverse.
I'd like to see a version of this with autistic people and people with ADHD. Anecdotally, we seem to get along.
Also,=I love that nonbinary identities weren't erased in this. That's important when researching autistic people. It's just a fact that a statistically significant number of us are nonbinary.
I have been diagnosed with adhd for 7years but im just now starting to explore autism. We seem to have a lot of common experiences and anecdotes. Some psychiatrists think theres some sort of relationship between the two. Now i want to make some autistic friends.
I like how they treat us autistic people like where some kind of alien.
Actually I think neurotypicals are the aliens. Autistic people are humans discovering a planet
As someone with autism, there isn't really other way you can approach a study like this honestly. Autism isn't very well understood, as it's such a huge spectrum with all kinds of variety.
That being said, it is hard to measure not only something as subjective and complex as rapport but then translating that into statistics as well. We're going to be treated like objects because we are not understood, hence this study, and many, many others. I get that it's infuriating, but there really isn't a better test than forming a claim and using compliment of the level of significance, the "p values" you see on the graphs, in order to communicate accurate data.
@@genericfishbowl8528 Or they are aliens trying to examine the normal people such as ourselves.
thats how neurotypicals are man they are fucking WEIRD
I mean, I've heard many autistic people saying they feel like aliens.
What are the characteristics of neurotypical communication style?
My autism is easier to notice when ppl see me interact with people who i know don't understand me very well, but I'm told I shouldn't make such assumptions. But apparently I'm being kind of accurate, it's just not polite to act like i know those kinds of things or I'm told it's a "self fulfilling prophecy" instead of just pattern recognition.
Now let’s do a study of communications between autistic people and narcissistic people, if you can actually find any with a diagnosis of NPD. The gap in my opinion would be similar to the Grand Canyon.
I lived with one for 3.5 years, and he screamed at me frequently, for hours on end. Sometimes my ears would be ringing afterward. It was a nightmare. Communication was just impossible. 😖
thanks
I believe this data is being a bit misinterpreted.
See how nts cope in a situation with nt that think the nt is nd.
Autistic people communicate in a world of normie.
Normie clearly has significant trouble with different.Nd suffers from this.Some of your data reflected this.
Nts have a lot of trouble designing accurate tests- should have gotten an aspie to do it.