Hey Julian, good that you added this chart to your reviews. But can you also add the Hi-Z input specifications of the different interfaces you reviewed? (just like how headphone outputs differ in quality in audio interfaces, I wonder if Hi-Z affects recorded DI signal)
Julian, thanks for doing this - very useful. I would be interested to see a chart showing the relationship of both the analog gain & digital conversion step. Thanks for making audio info more user friendly for the non-audio engineer crowd.
Great info! One other thing I'd love to see you do would be a minimum "gain" comparison, too. For example, my Focusrite Scarlett 2Pre clips on its input with active guitar pickups and palm mutes even when the gain is set to minimum at "Instrument" level forcing me to use a DI box. Setting it to "Line" level or whatever they call it makes the signal sound strange. My Apogee Duet 2, however, takes the signal totally fine without the need of a DI box. It would be useful information for guitarists who may not have a DI box handy, I think.
I have something like this situation. I have a first generation Scarlett 2i2 (yes, it's alive!) and when I record a Squier electric guitar directly (then I use Amplitube), it sometimes overloads, no matter the gain level is all the way down. I ended up moving the pickups further away from the strings. I don't have a DI...
@@PabloUliver-Bass-Guitar beware the fact that changing your pickup height will change your sound! There are inexpensive DI that work great like the behringer ones. It would be better to use one of them and keep the pickup in it's proper position.
@@ferdinandobarisciano6934 Thanks a lot for the information! I'll have that in mind and as soon as I can I'll buy a DI. But, for now I have to do it my way. Thanks again!
The Rode AI-1 just recently came out with a firmware update to increase the gain. 1. Is that possible? I had always assumed it was hardware based. Someone did a test on Reddit, and determined the SNR was the same, however, which I assume is good. Secondly, I assume because of that, the AI-1 would sit higher on the list now, yes? (The update came out after this video)
I am curious… From my results, I get the impression, that unlike the signal, the EIN of the preamp is always relative to the full scale, no matter what the max Voltage may be. At the same time tho, the signal, being a certain voltage is relative to the maximum voltage. Is that accurate? And If so, would an EIN of -129 dBu and a max input level of 10dBu have the same noise in the DAW, compared to what I’d get with -128dBu EIN and 9dBu max input level?
Great explanation Julian, thanks! Considering that nowadays it’s more an more podcasters who are looking at i.e. the SM7B and that podcast recording consoles are USB audio interfaces too, it would be really interesting to see how the Zoom Podtrak P4/P8 (70db “gain”), the Tascam Mixcast4 (66,5db “gain”) and the Røde Rodecaster Pro (55db “gain”) stack up against the other interfaces on your killer graph.
So how does signal to noise ratio factor into this? My first thought watching this was that the usability of a higher input gain would have to be dependent on the noise floor of the system as a whole too, but how would you factor that into the gain calculations shown here?
Hey Julian, I'd like to hear your thoughts on a recent discovery I made thanks to your video. I just compared the outputs from my Rode AI-1 using patch 1.3.0 (latest standalone firmware) and patch 1.3.1 (updated with Rode Central*) and found that at 100% gain the gain range increased from 45 dB -> 60 dB. This seems to align with the updated website copy that claims as much. My understanding and methodology is very basic so I'm not sure what exactly changed, but I am seeing ~15 dB louder digital levels now. Hope this gives you a lead. Results before and after firmware update: (1 kHz test tone from a speaker, 3" from a Behringer XM8500, recorded into Audacity, measured with Youlean) 100% -36.6 LUFS -> -21.3 LUFS (+15.3 LU) 50% -56.7 LUFS -> -48.2 LUFS (+8.5 LU) 0% -80.9 LUFS -> -80.7 LUFS (within margin of error) Gain range: 44.3 LU -> 59.4 LU *For anybody having issues installing the update, Rode Central seems to close if there are no active sound devices in Windows 10. I had to plug my headphones into the motherboard instead of the interface for it to not exit prematurely during the firmware update. Otherwise it would drop out during the update, indicate a yellow signal level, and require power to be disconnected before it can be detected again.
Hey Julian, What an amazing video. Well explained. I see that I have chosen the right interface m-audio air 192/4 and other interfaces that I own are top too I see. Ok even though it not only has to with gain range only. But before I had an expensive Focusrite, it was not bad but not as good as I wanted so I sent it back and purchased the m-audio. Much better than the twice as expensive Focusrite. Danke sehr für deine Video.
Why can't the specs for every digital audio interface list the reference level? [Reference level: 0dBFS = +24dBu] How freakin' hard is it to put that on the box? Come on, why doesn't everybody do this?
To be fair, most of them actually do, especially on the output side or for fixed-level line inputs. It just isn't all that easy when reference level isn't fixed. For example, CS4272-based interfaces generally have analog gain control on the output, and on some of them reference level can effectively be set higher than maximum undistorted output level if cranked all the way up (e.g. Tascam US-2x2HR). In these situations one would wish for both to be specified. On the input side I think I've seen just about any conceivable combination of maximum input level, input sensitivity, and either gain range or min/max gain - any two of them will tell you what you need to know, just some math may be needed. This is a bit of an annoying situation for things like my online DIY microphone level calibration calculator, where for the best user experience I may be forced to provide input fields for all kinds of data, showing/hiding them as needed. The fact that some interfaces have the luxury of a gain display while in others with analog gain dials you are best off estimating your position from maximum is in no way helping.
Hi Julian!!! I noticed a Loxjie D30 USB DAC on your desk!!! I have gen1(akm4493, sold) and gen2(ess 9068AS, in service), which version is yours currently? Do you pair it with a headphone amp?? Could you test its audio performance and give some of listening opinions? Thanks! Cheers!!
I’ve watched this video like a dozen times but am still struggling to understand one thing: _how do I know how much gain the interface is providing at minimum and maximum?_ My Quantum 2626 has a max input level of +10 dBu and a gain range of 60 dB. Does this mean the range is -10 dB to +50 dB? +10 dB to +60 dB?
Best to feed a sine wave into the input and measure the difference in dBfs at minimum and maximum gain. Then you'll know what your gain range is. Maximum input level is where your preamp will reach clipping level in the analog domain. This is usually where an interface will also reach 0dBfs on the computer (unless the input level on the drivers has been turned down). A lower max input level will mean that less gain will be needed to drive an input signal on that particular device, because there's less headroom.
I have a problem which is slightly off-topic but I'm desperate. I'm running a PC as a streamer (HP Deskmate, if it matters) which is outputting USB Audio2 over a USB cable to an Arcam irDAC, which at the moment is only functioning as a digital bridge to coaxial digital, instead of as a DAC. (This problem happened when its analog output stage was being used, also, so that's not it.) The coaxial digital output from the Arcam is connected to the coaxial digital input on a pair of Edifier s2000mk-iii powered speakers. The problem is this: Somewhere in the audio reproduction chain, the gain is being turned up way too high -- so much so that it introduces significant amounts of clipping -- and the signal is then being normalized back to the various slider-volume settings in the chain, so that turning down the volume only results in quieter distortion. I've tried to be scientific about where this is happening, and it's difficult to control for all the variables but I **think** it's somewhere in the initial conversion to USB Audio2. Can anyone offer any suggestions? There doesn't seem to be a control panel for that: I can access the Arcam's settings on my PC, and I can access the generic volume adjustment options for sound on the PC, but the necessary adjustment seems to be "in between" those two arenas of possible settings-changes. Any thoughts or reactions would be greatly appreciated.
Do you have a website where you these type of graphs for preamps and microphones? If not, you can be the RTINGS of pro audio. They do the same thing as you but with TVs and sound bars and headphones. They take manufacturer numbers and show you the real numbers so you can see if there was a misrepresentation. And people can subscribe to you for a fee. Most of your clients will likely be people shopping for equipment and will only purchase one month, but pro musicians and enthusiasts will purchase the less expensive yearly subscription. You're welcome... My fee is 10%. I'm kidding of course
Hello Julian. What a precious videos!!! Regarding the gain. My Fast track has: max input level from +24dBu @ min gain, pad on to -40dBu @ max gain, no pad. Preamp gain > 40dB. Is it a crap then? Is it almost mute?
How does this affects when recording guitars with hot pickups? When I record guitar with active pickups I always get about -1, -2 or close to 0 dbFS which leaves a very little headroom and when adding more layers of plugins it starts clipping. to get a lower (like -6dbFS) input should I get an interface with low "gain" or high "gain" ? in my case lower "gain" is better, am I correct?
Hi Julian, great work on this :D Since interface manufacturers do not have a universal standard specification for the minimum and absolute gain on their interfaces, do you think it will be a good idea to *cover this aspect in your interface reviews?
I hate it when i cant compare two of the same specifications, without having a degree, The last few weeks i read up on the subject of audio equipment and i thought iam now capable to compare DACs Interfaces, Preamps and Microfones. Its not very beginner friendly, but i will try my best ^^ One question: How can i find out, without measurements, how much voltages is supplied by audio interfaces on the "XLR & 6.3mm combo port" when phantom power is turned off ? Icant find any information on this, neither for my umc202hd nor a different audio interface. If i had to guess, id said its 5V coming from the USB port that gets converted to ~48V
Hey Julian what is the best 2 channel audio interface for around $200? I like the motu m2 but lots of nice stuff on the market. Thanks in advance and keep up the great work!
Maybe someone can help me, in my experience the 90% vs 100% preamp volume is very different, and i feel you gain in those 10% a pretty big jump in volume and usually bad sound, why does that happen?
So the less capable 2V full scale interface will produce louder digital output for the same 1V input than then a 4V full scale device. That's counterintuitive, but very good to keep in mind - louder does not mean better.
Since the maximum achievable minimum noise of the converter is determined by the accuracy of stabilization of the supply voltage, and if we assume that in absolute terms the stabilization accuracy is approximately the same for everyone, it turns out that the achievable signal-to-noise ratio during conversion will be greater for those converters that have high supply voltages, and therefore the maximum input level. Thus, despite the lower dBFS value, the signal-to-noise ratio of the conversion will remain approximately the same, but the interface with a higher input voltage value has the ability to record a more powerful signal with a lower signal-to-noise value. However, there is no direct comparison. Here it may turn out that a card with a large intrinsic gain has a small maximum input voltage, not because the reference voltage of the converter is small, but because the minimum gain of the preamp is permissible +10 dB (for example), compared to another similar converter, but with a preamp with minimum gain +6dB. As can be seen from the characteristics of the two cards in the video, the Scarlet's declared converter noise is less than that of the second card. Thus, they most likely recorded the signal given to them with approximately the same signal-to-noise ratio, but Scarlet has the ability to record a more powerful signal with less noise, and the second card does not have this ability.
7:52 I would really like a touch more information on the sensitive Mics - I occasionaly see comments about mics that need a bit more power. That might be useful for a noob like me.
Thank you for this video. It was so clear and helpful for an audio noob like myself, it seems so intuitive to compare max gain spec when it does not work.
Cheers! But - how come you didn't mention the Dynamic Range details and added it to the calculation? As far as I remember, it says something about the quality of a device, isn't it?
So if I use a Meris 440 mic preamp module that has 60dB gain and a +12db output trim in a Cranborne Audio 500R8 audio interface that has an max input level of up to +24db and a gain range of 105db, what line-up level do I get? 24-105=81? Or 12-105=93? Or something else? You got me interested, but confused 😂
Good as always!!! could you analize the Apolo UAD? It would be super nice to ser all elements you normally analize into that interfaces! (solo and twins) Thanks for your awesome vids always!
I would like to see a EIN vs gain graph. From this you can see when a higher gain will not make EIN substantially lower and the higher gain will just make the dynamic range lower.
Hey Julian, could you try and get yourself a unit of the new MOTU M2/M4 which have different internals in them and see if you can spot a difference in performance?
I have a MOTU M4 of the new units being made in China. As far as the interface itself, everything seems to work as intended with the original units, the mic pre-amps can power an SM7b/SM57/RE-20 to clipping levels. As far as the DAC inside the interface I believe it is an upgrade over the original components, as it's now the same chip that is in the Ultralite Mk5. I unfortunately don't have any measurement equipment in order to test these things out, though. Would just be a good video update since they're no longer making the M2/M4 that he reviewed.
I don't get how anyone who is concerned about mic gain would bother to even consider interface "total gain" to be an attribute worth comparing when there are so many fantastic hardware preamps out there.
I have the MOTU M2 and the MTrack Solo and according to these graphs, the MTrack Solo has a higher maximum gain than the MOTU M2 - but ----- from my own personal tests the MTrack Solo couldn't even really properly drive an SM7B or an XM8500 whereas the MOTU M2 could do it very clean. There's a stepping issue with the Mtrack Solo which makes it jump quite a few decibels towards maximum gain range. But overall I find myself, with my own personal tests, finding the MOTU M2 has more gain range and more capability in driving an SM7B as compared to the MTrack Solo -- but that confuses me because according to the graphs the MTrack Solo has better gain than the ID14 Mark 2, MOTU M2 but imo those interfaces on my experiements far outperformed the MTrack Solo.
I think because of the step in the gain of the M-Track Solo it seems that it has less gain because you often stay below this step. But if you fully max out the gain on the M-Track you will notice that it records a stronger digital signal than the M2. The measurements for my graph are always done at max gain and the M-Track has a lot of gain avaailable in the last few degrees of the gain dial.
This was the easiest explanation I've seen. I always wanted to explain but your video nailed it. Next time the topic comes up, I know where to direct the questions.
Hi Julian Do you have a measured calculation for a Roland Rubix 22. I bought an audient 1d4 mk11 and the gain is about half of my previous rubix 22. the seller says there is nothing wrong with it? this was my calculation - audient - Maximum input level 12DB - Gain range 58 DB = - 48 DBu rubix - Maximum input level 2 DB - Gain range 48DB = - 46 DBu by the the audient should be louder not quieter?
It's weird, there's many people on reddit claiming the iD4 MKII and iD14 MK2 have substantially more mic input gain, yet your measurements show that it's actually the Scarlett 2i2 that wins out that comparison (by one 1db, but still).
Thats helps me a lot. As i bought TLM 102 and scarlett can't handle it i had to found this video to understand why it's so quiet (small waveform) at HALF OF GAIN. Big thanks! Maybe you can recommend me something for my TLM?
You can really make a hobby out of this. There seems to be endless information about audio and recording. Thx for providing all that with "made in Germany" quality
There's another way to explain "Full Level Scale", etc. There is a maximum voltage which is a physical limitation and set's the end of one's dynamic range. So in the speaker, there is a voltage which would extend the magnet to its full projection. Any voltage greater than that and the speaker might break. So it's not like someone picks 1 volt or 4 volts. The electrical engineer defines it through the physical characteristics of their circuit. Put another way, let's say we measured gain from 0; that is our reference system is based 0 volts. So no voltage is 0 and any higher voltage is greater, we can give them any numbers. 0,1,2,3, to as much voltage as our source gives out. Let's say we have a dynamic range of 0 to 454 volts. How can we know our output source can handle it? We can't? We MUST expect that no system can take unlimited voltage but must WORK BACKWARDS from its highest voltage. "Full Level Scale" is another word for the maximum voltage the signal is referenced to (again, can't reference to 0 because that is really 0 to infinity, in a sense). Because we reference to the MAXIMUM level all numbers below it are NEGATIVE. When you move your signal from one system to another the electronics match the maximum value of the source to its maximum value, up or down. If you didn't do that, one could damage the other. When we're measuring sound we use positive dbs because a sound can go physically higher. Like "Big Bang" high ;) In short, in electronics we work backwards from our voltages. In describing physical phenomenon, we can set our measurements and let it run. So the larger our negative db the more dynamic range we have between our strongest signal and weakest. But as you've pointed out in other videos, a large range in itself does not equal better quality. I see dynamic range misused in photography ALL THE TIME. People don't get, measuring dynamic range basked on a gray card only tells you the dynamic range of grays, NOT colors, and it doesn't take into account noise. So much fantasy.
Lot of more parameter can influence quality.. why just pick one like Gain as a decision criteria? Makes no sense to me. In most cases this is not the parameter, making it worse. SNR, and Headroom are maybe words to mention. By the way, dB stuff in all cases mathematical normalisation via a logarithm, which is kind of base to 10 or 2 mostly. just add those dB values together, without complex recalculation. The general sound quality of the AD/DA Converters is the challenge and the underlying approach (Sigma Delta Foo vs 2-R-R??).
Doesn’t the maximum input level indicate the point where the mic preamp would be overloaded? If that is in fact the case, the Focusrite can handle a hotter input signal (2.18V RMS) than the M-Audio (0.92V RMS) or am missing something?
Julian, I wish you to come with a video about GOXLR and GOXLR mini, I really want to hear if this is a really a good interface for the money and it really has what it says it has, there are tons of videos on TH-cam but I think that you understand these things much more than anyone else. When it comes to comparing interfaces I always look up to your channel, thanks to you I bought NI Komplete Audio 1 and it even powers up my SM7B quite good, it only goes around -18 dBfs which is great for streamers not to clip the microphone and adjust it with compressor
When you look at the gain graphs of various audio interfaces you've compiled, it seems like a lower max input level and a higher gain range are better. This is true if you're recording the source directly into your computer using the interface's preamp. However, if you plan to use external gear such as a compressor in between, you should be mindful that having a higher max input level is advantageous. The reason for this is that a max input level minus 4 dBU allows for true headroom in analog signals.
I susspect you are missing something, because using an SM 57 to record pan flute & quena, I only need 1/4 gain to maax out with a Presonus 24C, despite your claim thai it is a poor interface. The 24C gain is all pos when using XLR input but with line in, the gain is control drops the whole range to provide some attenuation at the expense of reducing max amplification. This fuction is not obvious in the specs. Anyway, I just want to add that the 0 VU guide holds pretty well, especially for programs with good dynamic expression where 0VU mean will naturally run very close to 0 dBfs peaks. It's only not the case when content has had the dynamic expression compressed out off it. That of cause may be to please studio execs that show up fot 2 mins or to fight wind & traffic noise on the go, but it suck for listening to music in any meaningful way.
🤩Amazing videos and the best reviews on you tube thank you So much… may we please see a review of the Zoom F3 if this can be used as a quality audio interface for pro voice over compared to Motu or Apollo even scarlet ? Thanks so much if possible 😊🙏
Nice video! ✨ Thanks a lot. Have you already made a specific video about ad/da convertion? I might have missed it.. If not, i would find that a interesting topic for a future video! :) best regards
Very informative. This messed me up by choosing an Interface because of its large gain range to find it wasn't that great. You would think manufacturers would just start including this in their specs.
I have both of these and I was using m-audio one first but I hear better when singing with the Scarlett 2i2 …… and is it me or on the Red Scarlett there are some laser line and dots that (I’m still playing with these) but if we get the perfect adjustment we get a awesome result, but I’m still trying to figure about do I use the second xlr input when the mic is on the first and turn at max level and the big silver monitoring where it needs to be set and last the volume button, does it affect the level of your recording or it’s only for headphones ???? And the 48v for phantom power red button do I use it even if the mic don’t need it lol sorry but it’s been a year now I’m learning all by myself but need some answer by a pro and you seem to be this guy lol ✌️ and you videos are really helpful to understand this confusing world of audio interfaces hehe
Hello Julian! I have a question about using a mixer with an usb interface. What if I want to use my audio interface preamps? Do i have to connect the mic first to the interface or no? Am I using the mixers preamps if i connect the mic to them first? Its a bit confusing how this works xD if i have an audio interface with better preamps, i wish I could use them, but then if I send the signal to my mixer I have no way of connecting it to my pc :( Regards from Portugal!
Hi Julian! Sorry if this question is off topic from the video but thought this was the best way to contact you. I have 28 ohms headphones and I recently got a great deal on an audient evo 4. After watching your videos you mentioned there could be an issue with low impedance headphones with this interface. Would you be able to explain what issues it causes when listening to something like game audio or music?
I “GAINED” a lot of understanding from this video. Thanks!
Get off the ‘stage’ 🤓
Lol
Oof!!
lol love it
DELETE THIS
Another excellent masterclass from the University of Krause! Thank you, very well explained.
Hey Julian, good that you added this chart to your reviews.
But can you also add the Hi-Z input specifications of the different interfaces you reviewed?
(just like how headphone outputs differ in quality in audio interfaces, I wonder if Hi-Z affects recorded DI signal)
+1 ✅
Julian, thanks for doing this - very useful. I would be interested to see a chart showing the relationship of both the analog gain & digital conversion step. Thanks for making audio info more user friendly for the non-audio engineer crowd.
Great info! One other thing I'd love to see you do would be a minimum "gain" comparison, too. For example, my Focusrite Scarlett 2Pre clips on its input with active guitar pickups and palm mutes even when the gain is set to minimum at "Instrument" level forcing me to use a DI box. Setting it to "Line" level or whatever they call it makes the signal sound strange. My Apogee Duet 2, however, takes the signal totally fine without the need of a DI box. It would be useful information for guitarists who may not have a DI box handy, I think.
I have something like this situation. I have a first generation Scarlett 2i2 (yes, it's alive!) and when I record a Squier electric guitar directly (then I use Amplitube), it sometimes overloads, no matter the gain level is all the way down. I ended up moving the pickups further away from the strings. I don't have a DI...
@@PabloUliver-Bass-Guitar beware the fact that changing your pickup height will change your sound! There are inexpensive DI that work great like the behringer ones. It would be better to use one of them and keep the pickup in it's proper position.
@@PabloUliver-Bass-Guitar i suggest you to see the video poste by Jim Lill on youtube called : where does guitar tone come from.
It will shock you
@@ferdinandobarisciano6934 Thanks a lot for the information! I'll have that in mind and as soon as I can I'll buy a DI. But, for now I have to do it my way. Thanks again!
Yes, and I would like you to measure how aerodynamic each unit is when travelling at sub-mach speeds at an altitude of 4000 metres.
Julian casually destroys all other TH-camr's reviews... Great video as always.
Because JK backs it with science, other vids are based on opinion 😂
@@ValioN77 Very true. TH-cam defo needs JK!
Bitte sag mir, dass du aus NRW bist und mir mit meinen Einstellungen helfen kannst :D
I'd appreciate if you could do a review on the new Yamaha audio interface the AG06MK2.
The Rode AI-1 just recently came out with a firmware update to increase the gain.
1. Is that possible? I had always assumed it was hardware based. Someone did a test on Reddit, and determined the SNR was the same, however, which I assume is good.
Secondly, I assume because of that, the AI-1 would sit higher on the list now, yes? (The update came out after this video)
I am curious… From my results, I get the impression, that unlike the signal, the EIN of the preamp is always relative to the full scale, no matter what the max Voltage may be. At the same time tho, the signal, being a certain voltage is relative to the maximum voltage. Is that accurate?
And If so, would an EIN of -129 dBu and a max input level of 10dBu have the same noise in the DAW, compared to what I’d get with -128dBu EIN and 9dBu max input level?
Great explanation Julian, thanks! Considering that nowadays it’s more an more podcasters who are looking at i.e. the SM7B and that podcast recording consoles are USB audio interfaces too, it would be really interesting to see how the Zoom Podtrak P4/P8 (70db “gain”), the Tascam Mixcast4 (66,5db “gain”) and the Røde Rodecaster Pro (55db “gain”) stack up against the other interfaces on your killer graph.
So how does signal to noise ratio factor into this? My first thought watching this was that the usability of a higher input gain would have to be dependent on the noise floor of the system as a whole too, but how would you factor that into the gain calculations shown here?
Hey Julian, I'd like to hear your thoughts on a recent discovery I made thanks to your video.
I just compared the outputs from my Rode AI-1 using patch 1.3.0 (latest standalone firmware) and patch 1.3.1 (updated with Rode Central*) and found that at 100% gain the gain range increased from 45 dB -> 60 dB. This seems to align with the updated website copy that claims as much.
My understanding and methodology is very basic so I'm not sure what exactly changed, but I am seeing ~15 dB louder digital levels now. Hope this gives you a lead.
Results before and after firmware update:
(1 kHz test tone from a speaker, 3" from a Behringer XM8500, recorded into Audacity, measured with Youlean)
100% -36.6 LUFS -> -21.3 LUFS (+15.3 LU)
50% -56.7 LUFS -> -48.2 LUFS (+8.5 LU)
0% -80.9 LUFS -> -80.7 LUFS (within margin of error)
Gain range: 44.3 LU -> 59.4 LU
*For anybody having issues installing the update, Rode Central seems to close if there are no active sound devices in Windows 10. I had to plug my headphones into the motherboard instead of the interface for it to not exit prematurely during the firmware update. Otherwise it would drop out during the update, indicate a yellow signal level, and require power to be disconnected before it can be detected again.
Hey Julian,
What an amazing video. Well explained. I see that I have chosen the right interface m-audio air 192/4 and other interfaces that I own are top too I see. Ok even though it not only has to with gain range only. But before I had an expensive Focusrite, it was not bad but not as good as I wanted so I sent it back and purchased the m-audio. Much better than the twice as expensive Focusrite.
Danke sehr für deine Video.
Why can't the specs for every digital audio interface list the reference level? [Reference level: 0dBFS = +24dBu] How freakin' hard is it to put that on the box? Come on, why doesn't everybody do this?
To be fair, most of them actually do, especially on the output side or for fixed-level line inputs. It just isn't all that easy when reference level isn't fixed. For example, CS4272-based interfaces generally have analog gain control on the output, and on some of them reference level can effectively be set higher than maximum undistorted output level if cranked all the way up (e.g. Tascam US-2x2HR). In these situations one would wish for both to be specified.
On the input side I think I've seen just about any conceivable combination of maximum input level, input sensitivity, and either gain range or min/max gain - any two of them will tell you what you need to know, just some math may be needed.
This is a bit of an annoying situation for things like my online DIY microphone level calibration calculator, where for the best user experience I may be forced to provide input fields for all kinds of data, showing/hiding them as needed. The fact that some interfaces have the luxury of a gain display while in others with analog gain dials you are best off estimating your position from maximum is in no way helping.
Exceptional Channel. Undoubtably professional and scientific. I love Julian Krause channel. Sorry for the entusiasm.
No need to be sorry 😃
Once again, schooled by JK. Great stuff, brotha.
My brain waves gained +24db watching this.
Thank you for the awesome tutorial!
I noticed a lot less reverb in your vocal track this time! Did you do some acoustic treatment in your room?
Yes, glad you noticed :) You can see the panels in the background of the video. They are melamine foam panels.
Hi Julian!!! I noticed a Loxjie D30 USB DAC on your desk!!!
I have gen1(akm4493, sold) and gen2(ess 9068AS, in service), which version is yours currently? Do you pair it with a headphone amp??
Could you test its audio performance and give some of listening opinions? Thanks! Cheers!!
Great explanation, thanks so much.
I’ve watched this video like a dozen times but am still struggling to understand one thing: _how do I know how much gain the interface is providing at minimum and maximum?_
My Quantum 2626 has a max input level of +10 dBu and a gain range of 60 dB. Does this mean the range is -10 dB to +50 dB? +10 dB to +60 dB?
Best to feed a sine wave into the input and measure the difference in dBfs at minimum and maximum gain. Then you'll know what your gain range is. Maximum input level is where your preamp will reach clipping level in the analog domain. This is usually where an interface will also reach 0dBfs on the computer (unless the input level on the drivers has been turned down). A lower max input level will mean that less gain will be needed to drive an input signal on that particular device, because there's less headroom.
Oh no... I'm going to have "Gain" repeating in my head randomly for weeks now aren't I?? 😂
I have a problem which is slightly off-topic but I'm desperate. I'm running a PC as a streamer (HP Deskmate, if it matters) which is outputting USB Audio2 over a USB cable to an Arcam irDAC, which at the moment is only functioning as a digital bridge to coaxial digital, instead of as a DAC. (This problem happened when its analog output stage was being used, also, so that's not it.)
The coaxial digital output from the Arcam is connected to the coaxial digital input on a pair of Edifier s2000mk-iii powered speakers. The problem is this: Somewhere in the audio reproduction chain, the gain is being turned up way too high -- so much so that it introduces significant amounts of clipping -- and the signal is then being normalized back to the various slider-volume settings in the chain, so that turning down the volume only results in quieter distortion.
I've tried to be scientific about where this is happening, and it's difficult to control for all the variables but I **think** it's somewhere in the initial conversion to USB Audio2. Can anyone offer any suggestions? There doesn't seem to be a control panel for that: I can access the Arcam's settings on my PC, and I can access the generic volume adjustment options for sound on the PC, but the necessary adjustment seems to be "in between" those two arenas of possible settings-changes. Any thoughts or reactions would be greatly appreciated.
6:32 This kind of breakdown is so useful when investing in an audio interface! Outstanding video. Thank you!
The 3rd problem is that often not all the gain range is "useable" due to preamp distortion.
yup.."more" is not always better...how about clean gain?
Do you have a website where you these type of graphs for preamps and microphones? If not, you can be the RTINGS of pro audio. They do the same thing as you but with TVs and sound bars and headphones. They take manufacturer numbers and show you the real numbers so you can see if there was a misrepresentation. And people can subscribe to you for a fee. Most of your clients will likely be people shopping for equipment and will only purchase one month, but pro musicians and enthusiasts will purchase the less expensive yearly subscription. You're welcome... My fee is 10%. I'm kidding of course
Hello Julian. What a precious videos!!! Regarding the gain. My Fast track has: max input level from +24dBu @ min gain, pad on to -40dBu @ max gain, no pad. Preamp gain > 40dB. Is it a crap then? Is it almost mute?
How does this affects when recording guitars with hot pickups? When I record guitar with active pickups I always get about -1, -2 or close to 0 dbFS which leaves a very little headroom and when adding more layers of plugins it starts clipping. to get a lower (like -6dbFS) input should I get an interface with low "gain" or high "gain" ? in my case lower "gain" is better, am I correct?
Hi Julian, great work on this :D
Since interface manufacturers do not have a universal standard specification for the minimum and absolute gain on their interfaces, do you think it will be a good idea to *cover this aspect in your interface reviews?
DANG IT JULIAN. HAHA The big "GAIN" pop up had me laughing so hard there are tears in my eyes!!! Great video by the way, very useful information.
I hate it when i cant compare two of the same specifications, without having a degree, The last few weeks i read up on the subject of audio equipment and i thought iam now capable to compare DACs Interfaces, Preamps and Microfones. Its not very beginner friendly, but i will try my best ^^
One question: How can i find out, without measurements, how much voltages is supplied by audio interfaces on the "XLR & 6.3mm combo port" when phantom power is turned off ? Icant find any information on this, neither for my umc202hd nor a different audio interface.
If i had to guess, id said its 5V coming from the USB port that gets converted to ~48V
Hey Julian what is the best 2 channel audio interface for around $200? I like the motu m2 but lots of nice stuff on the market. Thanks in advance and keep up the great work!
Hi Julian ..please You can help presets eq and comp in Dbx286s with the Neumann bcm 104...You have a email?
Maybe someone can help me, in my experience the 90% vs 100% preamp volume is very different, and i feel you gain in those 10% a pretty big jump in volume and usually bad sound, why does that happen?
so midas pro and midas m32 mic amps max out at +45db of gain, and its fine because it achieves peak E.I.N at +45db of gain
Ya wanna say that ....Analog is more settle - by just jumping up scales ya can achive Digital range.
Love iNDIA 🙏
So the less capable 2V full scale interface will produce louder digital output for the same 1V input than then a 4V full scale device. That's counterintuitive, but very good to keep in mind - louder does not mean better.
Since the maximum achievable minimum noise of the converter is determined by the accuracy of stabilization of the supply voltage, and if we assume that in absolute terms the stabilization accuracy is approximately the same for everyone, it turns out that the achievable signal-to-noise ratio during conversion will be greater for those converters that have high supply voltages, and therefore the maximum input level. Thus, despite the lower dBFS value, the signal-to-noise ratio of the conversion will remain approximately the same, but the interface with a higher input voltage value has the ability to record a more powerful signal with a lower signal-to-noise value. However, there is no direct comparison. Here it may turn out that a card with a large intrinsic gain has a small maximum input voltage, not because the reference voltage of the converter is small, but because the minimum gain of the preamp is permissible +10 dB (for example), compared to another similar converter, but with a preamp with minimum gain +6dB. As can be seen from the characteristics of the two cards in the video, the Scarlet's declared converter noise is less than that of the second card. Thus, they most likely recorded the signal given to them with approximately the same signal-to-noise ratio, but Scarlet has the ability to record a more powerful signal with less noise, and the second card does not have this ability.
Hey how is everything? wual is better , focusrite Scarlett 2i2 3rd generation, or SSL 2 ? success there, thank you!
7:52 I would really like a touch more information on the sensitive Mics - I occasionaly see comments about mics that need a bit more power. That might be useful for a noob like me.
Thank you for this video. It was so clear and helpful for an audio noob like myself, it seems so intuitive to compare max gain spec when it does not work.
As always, good video with no bullsh.. in it, just pure useful information
200%
Cheers! But - how come you didn't mention the Dynamic Range details and added it to the calculation? As far as I remember, it says something about the quality of a device, isn't it?
So if I use a Meris 440 mic preamp module that has 60dB gain and a +12db output trim in a Cranborne Audio 500R8 audio interface that has an max input level of up to +24db and a gain range of 105db, what line-up level do I get? 24-105=81? Or 12-105=93? Or something else? You got me interested, but confused 😂
Fantastic! I never know if the specs of audio interfaces are actually telling me what I think they are. Gonna have to check out more of your videos.
Good as always!!! could you analize the Apolo UAD? It would be super nice to ser all elements you normally analize into that interfaces! (solo and twins) Thanks for your awesome vids always!
Any chance of reviewing the Fluid Audio SRI-2?
Great on "GAIN"! Appreciated 👍👍
After watching this whole thing, I wish that you had are quoted the word "gain" every time you used it. That would have been a scream.
Hi, Julian, can you review the new Presonus audio box GO?
Raise your hand if you get a little hot everytime Julian says "Gain" in air quotes.
No no, my hand isn't raised. I just wanted to see yours.
I would like to see a EIN vs gain graph. From this you can see when a higher gain will not make EIN substantially lower and the higher gain will just make the dynamic range lower.
Hey Julian, could you try and get yourself a unit of the new MOTU M2/M4 which have different internals in them and see if you can spot a difference in performance?
Seconded this, about to order a MOTU M2 myself & would like to know.
I have a MOTU M4 of the new units being made in China.
As far as the interface itself, everything seems to work as intended with the original units, the mic pre-amps can power an SM7b/SM57/RE-20 to clipping levels.
As far as the DAC inside the interface I believe it is an upgrade over the original components, as it's now the same chip that is in the Ultralite Mk5.
I unfortunately don't have any measurement equipment in order to test these things out, though.
Would just be a good video update since they're no longer making the M2/M4 that he reviewed.
@@saikousocial Again, agreed there. Hope you notice this Julian! :)
I don't get how anyone who is concerned about mic gain would bother to even consider interface "total gain" to be an attribute worth comparing when there are so many fantastic hardware preamps out there.
M-Audio interfaces are worse than Behringer's lowest end
I didnt hear anything about noise floor and dynamic range when comparig gain? 😋🙂
has anyone pointer out you resemble Christoper Walken. i can't wait to see an episode where you impersonate him 😅
should be -3db not -6db and - 6db instead of 12 , right ?
I have the MOTU M2 and the MTrack Solo and according to these graphs, the MTrack Solo has a higher maximum gain than the MOTU M2 - but ----- from my own personal tests the MTrack Solo couldn't even really properly drive an SM7B or an XM8500 whereas the MOTU M2 could do it very clean. There's a stepping issue with the Mtrack Solo which makes it jump quite a few decibels towards maximum gain range. But overall I find myself, with my own personal tests, finding the MOTU M2 has more gain range and more capability in driving an SM7B as compared to the MTrack Solo -- but that confuses me because according to the graphs the MTrack Solo has better gain than the ID14 Mark 2, MOTU M2 but imo those interfaces on my experiements far outperformed the MTrack Solo.
I think because of the step in the gain of the M-Track Solo it seems that it has less gain because you often stay below this step. But if you fully max out the gain on the M-Track you will notice that it records a stronger digital signal than the M2. The measurements for my graph are always done at max gain and the M-Track has a lot of gain avaailable in the last few degrees of the gain dial.
Please review something from the Universal Audio Apollo line. Thanks!
This was the easiest explanation I've seen. I always wanted to explain but your video nailed it. Next time the topic comes up, I know where to direct the questions.
Tips: 0dBV = +2.2dBu
Please adding Focusrite 2i2 4th gen to the graph
Excellent explanation Julian!
Can you do review of se eletronics tnt mic preamp boster?
Could you add a cloud lifter to compensate for the gain?
Hi Julian Do you have a measured calculation for a Roland Rubix 22. I bought an audient 1d4 mk11 and the gain is about half of my previous rubix 22. the seller says there is nothing wrong with it?
this was my calculation - audient - Maximum input level 12DB - Gain range 58 DB = - 48 DBu
rubix - Maximum input level 2 DB - Gain range 48DB = - 46 DBu
by the the audient should be louder not quieter?
This is indeed a very very useful & informative video, as always great job Julian!
this ones hard. glad i use mic preamps for the gain
It's weird, there's many people on reddit claiming the iD4 MKII and iD14 MK2 have substantially more mic input gain, yet your measurements show that it's actually the Scarlett 2i2 that wins out that comparison (by one 1db, but still).
Which one is good and bitter for music recording broooo
Thats helps me a lot. As i bought TLM 102 and scarlett can't handle it i had to found this video to understand why it's so quiet (small waveform) at HALF OF GAIN. Big thanks! Maybe you can recommend me something for my TLM?
You can really make a hobby out of this. There seems to be endless information about audio and recording.
Thx for providing all that with "made in Germany" quality
There's another way to explain "Full Level Scale", etc. There is a maximum voltage which is a physical limitation and set's the end of one's dynamic range. So in the speaker, there is a voltage which would extend the magnet to its full projection. Any voltage greater than that and the speaker might break. So it's not like someone picks 1 volt or 4 volts. The electrical engineer defines it through the physical characteristics of their circuit.
Put another way, let's say we measured gain from 0; that is our reference system is based 0 volts. So no voltage is 0 and any higher voltage is greater, we can give them any numbers. 0,1,2,3, to as much voltage as our source gives out. Let's say we have a dynamic range of 0 to 454 volts. How can we know our output source can handle it? We can't? We MUST expect that no system can take unlimited voltage but must WORK BACKWARDS from its highest voltage. "Full Level Scale" is another word for the maximum voltage the signal is referenced to (again, can't reference to 0 because that is really 0 to infinity, in a sense). Because we reference to the MAXIMUM level all numbers below it are NEGATIVE.
When you move your signal from one system to another the electronics match the maximum value of the source to its maximum value, up or down. If you didn't do that, one could damage the other.
When we're measuring sound we use positive dbs because a sound can go physically higher. Like "Big Bang" high ;)
In short, in electronics we work backwards from our voltages. In describing physical phenomenon, we can set our measurements and let it run.
So the larger our negative db the more dynamic range we have between our strongest signal and weakest. But as you've pointed out in other videos, a large range in itself does not equal better quality. I see dynamic range misused in photography ALL THE TIME. People don't get, measuring dynamic range basked on a gray card only tells you the dynamic range of grays, NOT colors, and it doesn't take into account noise. So much fantasy.
Lot of more parameter can influence quality.. why just pick one like Gain as a decision criteria? Makes no sense to me. In most cases this is not the parameter, making it worse. SNR, and Headroom are maybe words to mention. By the way, dB stuff in all cases mathematical normalisation via a logarithm, which is kind of base to 10 or 2 mostly. just add those dB values together, without complex recalculation. The general sound quality of the AD/DA Converters is the challenge and the underlying approach (Sigma Delta Foo vs 2-R-R??).
Thanks so much. I literally just used your "math" to calculate the "gain" of a mixer I am thinking of buying. Very helpful.
Doesn’t the maximum input level indicate the point where the mic preamp would be overloaded? If that is in fact the case, the Focusrite can handle a hotter input signal (2.18V RMS) than the M-Audio (0.92V RMS) or am missing something?
Julian, I wish you to come with a video about GOXLR and GOXLR mini, I really want to hear if this is a really a good interface for the money and it really has what it says it has, there are tons of videos on TH-cam but I think that you understand these things much more than anyone else. When it comes to comparing interfaces I always look up to your channel, thanks to you I bought NI Komplete Audio 1 and it even powers up my SM7B quite good, it only goes around -18 dBfs which is great for streamers not to clip the microphone and adjust it with compressor
As producer! I really appreciate each and every videos. All videos are informative and accurates.. love from india!! 🇮🇳❤️
This is very helpful, thank you. Any chance you might review the Cymatic uTrack24?
When you look at the gain graphs of various audio interfaces you've compiled, it seems like a lower max input level and a higher gain range are better. This is true if you're recording the source directly into your computer using the interface's preamp. However, if you plan to use external gear such as a compressor in between, you should be mindful that having a higher max input level is advantageous.
The reason for this is that a max input level minus 4 dBU allows for true headroom in analog signals.
I susspect you are missing something, because using an SM 57 to record pan flute & quena, I only need 1/4 gain to maax out with a Presonus 24C, despite your claim thai it is a poor interface. The 24C gain is all pos when using XLR input but with line in, the gain is control drops the whole range to provide some attenuation at the expense of reducing max amplification. This fuction is not obvious in the specs. Anyway, I just want to add that the 0 VU guide holds pretty well, especially for programs with good dynamic expression where 0VU mean will naturally run very close to 0 dBfs peaks. It's only not the case when content has had the dynamic expression compressed out off it. That of cause may be to please studio execs that show up fot 2 mins or to fight wind & traffic noise on the go, but it suck for listening to music in any meaningful way.
I still use the m audio to this day
Many thanks. Now it all makes sense.
Gracias Krause, yo conseguí la M-AUDIO hace poco:P
Thanks very helpful
🤩Amazing videos and the best reviews on you tube thank you So much… may we please see a review of the Zoom F3 if this can be used as a quality audio interface for pro voice over compared to Motu or Apollo even scarlet ? Thanks so much if possible 😊🙏
Good stuff. Thanks. I guess that Cloud Lifter endorsement won't be coming any time soon!
Nice video! ✨ Thanks a lot.
Have you already made a specific video about ad/da convertion? I might have missed it.. If not, i would find that a interesting topic for a future video! :) best regards
which software is that one that is recording behind you?
Adobe Audition
Wow! Who knew? Thanks for the excellent and clarifying video!
Thank you for the video, very informative! Too bad Analog can't convert to digital at 1:1 huh? Would make things easier lol
Very informative. This messed me up by choosing an Interface because of its large gain range to find it wasn't that great.
You would think manufacturers would just start including this in their specs.
no SNR specs considered??? :S
I have both of these and I was using m-audio one first but I hear better when singing with the Scarlett 2i2 …… and is it me or on the Red Scarlett there are some laser line and dots that (I’m still playing with these) but if we get the perfect adjustment we get a awesome result, but I’m still trying to figure about do I use the second xlr input when the mic is on the first and turn at max level and the big silver monitoring where it needs to be set and last the volume button, does it affect the level of your recording or it’s only for headphones ???? And the 48v for phantom power red button do I use it even if the mic don’t need it lol sorry but it’s been a year now I’m learning all by myself but need some answer by a pro and you seem to be this guy lol ✌️ and you videos are really helpful to understand this confusing world of audio interfaces hehe
Hello Julian! I have a question about using a mixer with an usb interface. What if I want to use my audio interface preamps? Do i have to connect the mic first to the interface or no? Am I using the mixers preamps if i connect the mic to them first? Its a bit confusing how this works xD if i have an audio interface with better preamps, i wish I could use them, but then if I send the signal to my mixer I have no way of connecting it to my pc :(
Regards from Portugal!
Hi Julian! Sorry if this question is off topic from the video but thought this was the best way to contact you. I have 28 ohms headphones and I recently got a great deal on an audient evo 4. After watching your videos you mentioned there could be an issue with low impedance headphones with this interface. Would you be able to explain what issues it causes when listening to something like game audio or music?
Great vid and exactly info I been looking into .
By any chance have you done a review of the Audient ID44 ?
Thank you! I was wondering why two of my audio interfaces produced wastly different recording levels