Do You Think I Played A Cheater?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ม.ค. 2022
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That's definitely a cheater. Have you checked his win rate?
They might do puzzles on lichess, as there are infinite puzzles there. However, I do think that the time management and the unhuman nature of some of the moves they played make it highly likely they were cheating.
They weren't at their peak...
That means they failed an 800 rated puzzle
They had done 60 puzzles and failed 13 presumably rated less than 1000
you are right
5:36 They had diamond rank and had infinite puzzles it says the lowest was one day before the highest. As much as I would like to say they may have used lichess, I doubt it.
Yep I'm a beginner at this and am sitting at 1400 on the puzzles side. Someone like Nelson would destroy me. It's just too fishy
Yes I agree. Time management and puzzle to rapid rating dosen't add up
My puzzle rating is 2.1k, my rapid is 1.1k. They can be grossly apart.
@@SinisterMJ no one's saying they can't be, but it's still a "red flag" that should be considered when evaluating fair play. And the ratio matters, too: low puzzles and high rapid makes more sense for a cheater than high puzzles and low rapid, because (1) what cheater would use Stockfish to solve/grind puzzles, (2) it takes a really long time to get that high of a puzzle rating if you don't have a premium account, and (3) there's therefore less at stake should the account be closed. The time management gives it away on its own anyway.
@@SinisterMJ But do you notice something? It is the opposite direction!
People tend to have higher puzzle ratings than game ratings.
I am 1400 with 2400 puzzles
You never really see anyone with a puzzle rating as low as their game rating yet lower yet this low. Also they weren't at their peak meaning they failed an 800 rates puzzle. No 2300/2400 fails an 800 rated puzzle
they can be pretty far apart, doesn't really mean that someone is cheating. i'm 500-ish elo with 2k puzzle rating, but 2k+ elo with a really low puzzle rating might be a bit more suspicious. that being said though, this guy is probably a cheater, the time taken on each move is really suspicious.
@@unova3557 Not just a little bit. How often do you even see a person with a puzzle rating as low as their game rating? That is the point. It is the other way around
I’m calling shenanigans. I think if the random knight move only took ~6 seconds then they cheated.
No human plays at the 2000+ Elo level and consistently takes only 5-7 seconds per move. Even Magnus Carlsen spends a few more seconds on some moves.
You didn't tell us what his Elo was, which might affect our judgment, but yeah, it looks like after each of your moves he fed your move to an engine and played what the engine recommended, which should take a constant 5-7 seconds.
Also at 3:49, him moving his knight to a2 is definitely not a human move either (but I'm not 2000 Elo, so I can't tell what higher rated players could do).
I'm curious... What exactly is Elo?
Ranking points, help to show the strenght of the player
Strong GMs have the capability of destroying 2000s with great time odds, but I'm just being nitpicky.
@@TheBlueSkateboard sure, but then there's the other extreme, where a strong GM shouldn't spend 6 seconds on an obvious capture like the one that Nelson shows at 7:57, right? :-)
This case is easy to call. That person was cheating.
As a 2300, I can confidently tell you that no human ever plays Na2 in that position.
WAIT I PLAYED AGAINST THIS PERSON IN DAILY CHESS
but they didnt play any moves and manually resigned after a couple hours, which was weird haha.
I never play Chess Daily cause it's known to be StockFish vs StockFish.
I made a new account to try it out. I used StockFish myself and generating all the enemies moves. Matched StockFish move for move. Was in a group of 6. Only 1 was legit. The other 4 was StockFish. It's interesting how it's common for daily players to be over 2k elo while like 700 in other categories xD
LOL My scores are exactly the opposite. My puzzle rating is WAY higher than my rapid rating.
yeah pretty much everyone who does at least their 3 daily puzzles
Thats normal. Puzzle ratings are ib average a lot higher than rapid rating.
I think that puzzles are supposed to be around 500 points over you’re rating. I’m a 1750 rapid but have a 2500 puzzles but both ratings have jumped recently so who knows what will happen.
My puzzles are 2500, daily 1600, rapid 1300. But I barely played rapid. Maybe 10-15 games. It’s too stressful somehow due to time pressure.
@@evgenymukhin I agree with you there. I make most of my chess life in blitz simply due to that being what fits in my day before bed but I don’t really appreciate flagging people. I tend to be alright in time pressure somehow because I realize that my opponent is in the same spot most times so I play slow moves and force my opponent to be the one to think and actually complete something when we both have under 10 seconds. It also helps to check the opponent when down on time because then they have to spend time finding a solution.
Hopefully technology will help to catch them more effectively one day. I lost one daily tournament to a person who would barely win at 800 ELO level rapid in dozens of games but topped 1700+ in that tournament. He’s still around.
I hope you get well and things become better than before soon enough. Appreciate the work you've been doing.
1st game: He CHEATED and was banned.
2nd game: He cheated and the STATS prove it, convincingly.
Bro you weren't playing a cheater. You were playing a cheetah.
Why people cheat I will probably never understand! Either it's some kind of prank or it's really so poor souls who want to upgrade their self-worth in this way.
I prefer to lose a thousand times honestly than to win once dishonestly.
I analyze every game and I think there are some very skilled cheats. One opponent had 1 mistake 3 inaccuracies on LiChess
but there are inaccuracies that are slight, others that are close to mistake. His mistake had a small centipawn loss, and the inaccs had even less. Every single move he made one of the top 3 candidate moves! If you can play 40 moves and only play candidate moves you must be an IM. As a reference I checked a few games of IMs and found even then most do not consistently pick ONLY the top 3 candidate moves.
3:35 Nb4 followed by Na2 is one of those obscure engine moves that doesn't make any sense strategically until about 10 moves later. But if a person can think that far ahead, they wouldn't be making roundabout moves that are technically sound- They would be focusing that brain power on a more direct path to winning.
But hey, maybe he's a genius who played stockfish so much that he plays like stockfish, and his 700 rating in puzzles and 1300 in rapid is due to his grandson using his chess app :)
Even playing devil's advocate here doesn't seem to work, because it doesn't explain why the player spent approximately the same amount of time on every move. Even if you had the brainpower of that of stockfish, you would know when to use more time and when to play something immediately.
How was the time management for the other game with the person that was banned?
As someone who uses chess engines to mess with friends, I can confirm that I take 5-8 seconds to copy a move into an engine and back into the game.
At first I wanted to point that they only played on January 23 2021 last year and went 392 up with their puzzled rating. But seeing the pattern of your game, I most definitely agree with you
No one rated above 2000 would be that bad playing puzzles.
On the move where he just took the free bishop, I’d would consider pushing a pawn to kick out the dark squared bishop first, then take. So maybe he was considering that, but that one is suspicious
That doesn't work becase white can just sac a bishop for a pawn, and black can only take back one bishop so they lost a pawn for nothing. Should be instantaneous for a 2300, could've figured it out on White's move so black should've just premoved NxB.
My ratings are flipped from this. 1900 puzzles, 900 rating. But I’ve lost about 500 rating points in the past couple days. i think my brain stopped working
I had a puzzle rating of over 2000 when my all time rapid record rating is around 1650. And I hadn't done puzzles since it was around 1300.
i think its very strange to think for exactly 6-8 or so seconds on every move, likely because they’re doing the same process of playing the move on the engine, waiting, then play the move on you. with regards to taking back the bishop on e4, one could argue he was just doing the “you see a good move, look for a better one” but regardless i’d say your theory seems highly logical.
The things I would still check are: 1) rating progression; and 2) when the account was made.
Definitely cheating. Statistically it's impossible that his time distribution would be so even. Especially in chess where you have to think in every position.
He's just got great chess intuition, like Capablanca!
@@DarkSideChess But then he should move some moves quicker like take back the queen.
that time management is definitely the sign of someone who's had a bowl of fish stock for dinner
Unfortunately, it happens a lot. Can't catch them all and there will always be a way to cheat online. Yeah, Nelson, I would assume he cheated. He'll get caught and he'll be banned.
5:43 I think the puzzle rating is fine, due that their highest/lowest rating was in January 2021, one year from the game...
1:41 should have take e3 with Te5. 1.- if he blocks u check and take queen 2.- if Th5 u make a double check and mate 3.- i he takes with knight u have free queen with the bishop.
I agree. Makes total sense.
The dead giveaway is that their puzzle rating of 700 isn't even their peak, meaning that even though they were at a mere 800 pts of rating in puzzles, they got enough puzzles wrong to drop to 700. Past a certain point you just can't fk up the simple puzzles anymore, let alone drop about 100pts of rating in puzzles.
How is a puzzle rating related to cheating? My rapid and blitz is around 1500, but my puzzles is 700.
Did you check the accuracy of his moves?
Anytime you suspect it, means there is definitely something fishy going on.
I found your channel recently through the youtube recommendations. Been really fun watching your videos, thanks for making them! Sorry for the cheater
Ugh... playing while feeling unwell... i always lose a lot of elo when i do that...
The time management is very fishy, even more than the puzzle discrepancy IMO. This seems like the easiest kind of cheater to detect. The algorithm for detecting it would have to be stronger if someone mostly plays own moves + keeps copy of game up on engine to check lines in tough spots. They'd still get caught, but it wouldn't be so flagrant like this and would take longer.
I wonder if anybody has been falsely banned for cheating in chess. I'm not nearly good enough at chess where it would be relevant, but I've had mod developers claim I cheated in other games because I did better than they anticipated being possible. Though if they had the equivalent of engines for chess available, they'd have likely known better (a well-trained ML AI would crush what I did no problem and show tons of inefficiencies). Still, I wonder if a super-GM on an alt could get a false report that's treated as accurate?
Time management is a dead giveaway. I could forgive the puzzle rating, because who knows, maybe he doesn't really do puzzles, but the time management is pretty damning.
No, he is some tropical GM that picked up the game after not playing for a few decades and has warmed up after doing some puzzles but after he figured out how the computer, mouse and keyboard works he is off to challenging Magnus soon. Stop accusing Nelson or you might bear the rage of a whole nation! Some obscure IM on TH-cam can tell you all about it.
Yeah wasn’t that guy winning games for longer than Nelson has been PIPI in pampers?
stop making things up nelson is not accusing, just look at the time management, 6 seconds 5 seconds 7 6 5 10 wth so stop
@@terroristsnakecat4830 stop your not funny
@@jaydeng.divinigracia5856 You missed the story of what happened with IM Levy Rozman when he accused a cheater from Indonesia. Look it up.
After much deliberation and introspection, I have concluded that yes, your opponent is a pumpkin eater 🎃
The algorithm should catch this clown and boot him.
my friend is stockfish and i fastly know that he use it becasue of his time spending
That player is still active several months later. I found it interesting that they did actually lose a few games in 2022 -- BUT the opponents they lost to have mostly been banned for cheating...
I found the guy's name, I won't disclose it, but however looking at some games ones he lost and won, I can say he did in fact cheat. The guy made very basic mistakes, and yet he found some moves that seem to be engine-worthy. I believe it is safe to say that he should be reported.
Time management definitely gives it away. Definitely a cheater
I wonder what your opponent's rise in rating has been in the past. Most cheaters win buckets of games very quickly and move suspiciously fast in rating.
The puzzle rating baffles me. I'm 800 points higher rated in puzzles than in blitz.
I'm +1200 but at around 1150 I saw I got 2 points back on Lichess because someone got banned for cheating. I felt pretty good about myself, you're finally in the big leagues where people cheat against you!
Damn never thought about it that way
Do a challenge where you play an average player but every other move they get to use the engine's best move. Just a thought. I'd check that out. 🙂
the difference in level between rapid, puzzle, duel and Blitz is so weird... nothing in coherant
I wonder if there are enough cheaters to skew peoples ratings. I do not know what % of players would need to cheat to have a noticeable effect, but it would have to be possible.
The first game seemed legit.
Yeah, I would say a cheater. The 5 to 10 seconds per move probably indicates using an engine. And the discrepancy between the puzzle rating and the rapid? My puzzle rating is actually slightly higher than my rapid so that was really weird to me.
Some people just believe it doesn’t matter how you get there was long as you get there. They just don’t get that cheating helps no one not even themselves
I’d say he’s a cheater with 99% certainty.
Usually, I don’t make decisions based on single games, but I’m a firm believer that move-times is an efficient way to determine the legitimacy of *Players* in online-Chess.
Also, don’t feel insecure about your suspiciousness; if you believe someone is cheating, report them, try to figure out the truth, and don’t let the, “You’re just salty”, type of arguments get to you :D
Get well soon Nelson
I think you are right. Putting your knight on a2 like that is not a move a human would do. Bots think differently.
I'd like to play people, too, and it does offend my sense of honor and fair play but I generally don't care much if they are cheating... and indictment of their character doesn't improve my game or make me feel better.
It's disappointing. I run into it online in Bridge, too... someone ends up in a contract they have no business bidding to and making. I'll review their bidding to try to learn from their conventions and decisions and discovering they cheated in those cases cheats me because there's nothing there for me to learn.
Chess has ratings and for good or ill, ratings have always driven people to bad behavior.
Yep
I am not convinced that black cheated in the first game. In the starting position he is already a piece up and black does not have as much compensation as you imagine. If he was cheating he would easily have found Qd3 instead of Kd2 on the third move.
After 6.Nd1 Rae8 the move 7.Bxh5 is also better as after ...Rxh5 8.Rxh5 Qxh5 then Qf2 or exd4 are winning easily.
I am not anywhere near as highly rated as yourself Nelson so my opinion maybe is not as valid as yours or other high rated players but I’m not so sure that your opponent was cheating, have you checked his other games to see if his time management is similar, many of his moves were 5 seconds, would that be enough time to enter your move and into the app and then see what the best responses are and then enter his move?
I don’t know, is that possible?
he just has a good gaming chair
Thats why i always play bullet-chess
He just has a good gaming chair
AGREED
I was once acccused of cheating during a game because I was defending well. Mind you, I had to defend well because my opening play was sub par. I eventually hung my queen and lost lol
Nelson, yeah it looks like both of your games were bot influenced.
Random opponents on the internet may say anything. Your opponent was probably tilted and made baseless accusations. But when a reputable content creator takes the time to make a video, then they probably have good evidence (and Nelson does have good evidence). I would always mute opponents cuz I don't wanna be distracted when I play.
Ok so on the puzzles, I’ve seen many people who just don’t do puzzles. And for time management, I’m the same way as that guy I spend almost the same amount of time on every move
Spending the same amount of time on every move isn't a good strategy, because sometimes, a position requires you to make a difficult decision, so you should spend more time on it. And other times, when there is an obvious move, or a forced move, you don't need to hesitate to play it.
@@danielyuan9862 for context, i pretty much play bullet chess only so im used to not having time to think so i usually play every move in about one to two seconds
Obviously the other player cheated, but yikes at the mental compensation that person is playing with him or herself.
It was carl magnusen
That’s just the opposite of me
Check the win rate and accuracy. That's some extremely dodgy play.
When they spent like 5-6-7 seconds every move, and never thinks for lond periods of time, even in tough positions - thats usually a good indication they are using an engine. Just making the move on the engine first, and then returning to the game with the engines move.
Yeah
The timing is very suspicious.
Yeah it looks like a machine. Hes repeating same process every move, theres no other way i can imagine, he would spend same amount of time on every move, no matter how difficult or easy to figure out.
The important thing is that the person should be always himself.
5:30 look at the puzzles, they went from 396 to 792 in ONE DAY. That kind of improvement is kind of odd and they had 47/60 correct which is pretty normal but still this is someone with a rapid of 2370 so you would have expected someone that can improve from 396 to 792 in a day to also have a higher puzzle rating because that clearly indicates they have diamond membership in order to do that, so they have the opportunity to improve far beyond 792 in puzzles as they have such a high rapid rating, but they don't. Honestly for me, this is the main indicator they are a cheater as well as the average of 6 seconds for each turn.
Wait a minute, how come Mr.Nelson is wearing glasses????
It happens all the time.
Alternative explanation: The guy has an internal clock running which his obsessive-cumpulsive disorder obligates him to follow day in, day out. He might, for example, have been an assemply line worker in a previous life where he had to do thing X every 5 seconds or so, for 50 years. He's also really, really bad at puzzles. I mean, really bad.
time spent gives it away.
I don't think the difference in puzzles to play is significant because I let my daughter use my account for puzzles.
However the time usages is a dead giveaway.
Yo have you ever seen the movie Fresh?
The clock management is way too consistent.
Well I think the opponent is a cheater but is it possible that some of the time they thought on your time? The only thing that really tipped me off was them taking 6 seconds to take the piece but they may have been distracted for that moment. I’m just trying to look at both sides but their highest puzzle rating was in January 2021 which would require a huge amount of tactical knowledge increase within a year to play at the 2100 level.
Even if they did why should it be consitant? That is the sus thing. Thinking won't always take the same time but reading from an engine will.
Sometimes I don't take the obvious piece immediately because I would be looking for intermezzo moves.
Yeah... that's a cheater. I'm 2,000 in puzzles, 1,400 in rapid and daily, 1,000 in Blitz and trying to crack 900 in bullet. That's normal -- being way better at puzzles than actual gameplay until I learn the game better and improve my strategies.
there are less cheaters in 3:00 zero second increment games
hold up, how do you cheat in chess? You hook up a chess engine?
This is one of the reasons why I eventually quit chess. It's all about memorizing moves, and the game is very unforgiving. Also, there is this - cheating online. I'd rather just play face to face.
I disagree, while remembering tactics certainly can win you games, it is not the all of chess. Look at Fischer, people knew what Fischer was going to play, he didn't care, not only did he win vs the preparation of many, he dominated.
It makes sense too, if I knew every tactic in the book, that would be great but if I can't put myself in a situation to get to those tactics it wouldn't matter.
It's suspicious, but not definite; I think I'd need to see the move times of a few more players before making up my mind.
yeh no human would ever play Na2 like that. Literally makes no sense from a human perspective
Judging by that time management, I feel the positions were being entered into a computer, and then a response move chosen from there, throughout the game. I'm convinced that you were playing a (C)heater.
He for surely cheated.
How about this: in a game of 5:5 (5 minutes + 5 seconds increments) you would probably be done with a player my level with more than 4 minutes on your clock to spare :P, a.k.a. you would probably win only with the increments - future TH-cam material idea? i.e. "beat your subscribers half your rating on just time increments"; I bet you would get by just by thinking on their turn.
- I wouldn't look too much into these numbers, unless replicated irrespective of the opponents' level: a usage pattern which site admins are best equipped to detect with a few smart queries on past games telemetry.
- 'Tis your cutest "my dear Watson" moment so far, but I think that the real answer is "we'll never know" - or you could report his ass, wait until you get the "we've taken action, but due to privacy we cannot share more" response, and then I guess we still won't ever know haha - everyone just gotta live with themselves and, in your case, there's a growing community who appreciates you, whereas the alleged cheater, if one indeed, probably has only got Stockfish to love them.
The puzzles rating isn't too suspicious as you can only do 5ish puzzles a day without a payed account. The rest is really suspicious though.
But *60* attempts is not trivial effort. At 10-15/puzzle, that should be +600 to +900 from the starting rating (is that 800 here?). I can't imagine that low-rated puzzles are troubling him for -15s. How does someone have a 2200+ rating, play immaculate defense through a complex mid-game at 6sec/move, and is unable to advance in puzzles?
@@PrometheanConsulting I didn't realize he had that many attempts
@@PrometheanConsulting he only did the puzzles twice, on two recurring days at the start of 2021, and he didnt do anymore. Lichess has infinite puzzles u know
He definitely cheated.
I don't do puzzles.
I think it would be fair if they refunded the points after an account you played against has been closed for fair play. It is frustrating enough when you realise through the game that something is very wrong
They do refund
@@goncalofreiria5615 Really? I have just seen that one of my opponents has been banned around a week ago, but I didn`t get anything
This is my 2 cents, he is a cheater, but not always, I think (by looking at his play history) he definitely cheated to get to where he is at now if you look at his rating climb by going on all games it is incredible 600 to 2000 all with pretty much 98 percent however I believe that in a lot of the games he plays now he is not cheating as in most games he is playing against 1400 and getting 85 percent about showing that he is probably a decent chess player but not 2300 as when he does end up playing someone his level he either loses with about a 70 percent or 80 showing he is a decent player or he wins with a 95 or 90. He definitely doesn't cheat all the time and I do not know if he cheated against you (probably though because of the time as well as the accuracy) but he definitely has and ismostly playing lower rates people which is how he keeps his rating without looking like he is cheating.
When it comes to the issue of puzzles, it doesn't mean that they are cheating because there puzzles ELO is lower than there rapid ELO.
This is because most people like to do puzzles on other sites like lichess.
But there is no way that any person on even a grandmaster can produce moves at uniform intervals.
I conclude that your opponent was definitely cheating.🤔🤔🧐🧐
The puzzles are suspicious because he had done 60 and failed 13. The puzzles would have been at around his rating
I don’t think you can use the fact that they used little time as evidence for cheating, since like Hikaru is used to beating up coffee chess people with 5 minute to 1 minute time odds, but I think they’re cheating because of the puzzle rating, not making mistakes, and the consistent time usage (the not instant recapture is the biggest red flag)