I think something we all admire in Matt is his intellectual honesty. He doesn't fawn, he doesn't pander even when honestly there are parts of me that want him to. I really enjoyed the new Dune and when i saw the "drift" of this review I kinda wanted to drop out. I'm so glad i stuck it out. Matt's criticisms are valid and insightful. I like the way he can critique something and yet not come off as a judgmental ass. That is a skill few possess especially in this day and age. Rock on Matt, you are appreciated.
I liked the depiction of Heighliners; that they are almost worm-like. That they fold space, seemingly at both locations, and that ships simply fly through; literal worm-holes
I like your interpretation of the Heighliner ships! Wish we could have seen the Guild Navigators folding space, one of the best scenes from Lynch's film that was missing from the book.
I noticed the pacing issue when i realized that Leto and Jessica literally don't speak to each other before the night of attack. And then I realized Yueh doesn't have like any scene. And there was no scene with Jessica and Hawat, and now you remind me the banquet scene... Man, there is like no downtime in this campaign.
@@mbartelsm it's not about losing things, it's about pacing. Lawrence of Arabia is 3 hours and 47 minutes long, and it's arguably the greatest film of all time. Stupidly long isn't a thing.
@@mbartelsm Book have an epic scale but movie covering the book would be stupidly long? Don't think thats how it work. It easily could have 30 minutes of great dialogs between great characters and it wouldn't feel longer. MCXL is mentioning Lawrence of Arabia, but even Return of the king have 201 min, 45 more than this Dune.
@@mbartelsm A lot of the things left out of this version of Dune made it into that weird-ass David Lynch film and this film has the benefit of being a two-parter. They told less of the story in part one than the Lynch version did in the like... 45 minutes or an hour that it had. The problem is simple. I've read the interviews with the screenwriter/script writer and he is pretty straightforward that there was a *lot* of the book he just didn't like or think was important. And he was like "Oh Dune is just a really simple story when you get down to it so we stripped out everything but the core story". It was kind of bewildering because it's obvious Villeneuve is bonkers for the story and includes tiny details and textures in the film that show a love for the source material.
I also loved the flash-forwards to Jamis teaching Paul the ways of the desert, and then the only interaction that they have is the fight to the death, which in reality IS Jamis teaching Paul the ways of the desert. I can’t remember but I think in the book the fight to the death is sorta framed as Paul learning what it is to be a Fremen, but I still think it’s a cool that Paul sees Jamis teaching him the ways of the desert, and then even though it doesn’t happen the way Paul remembered, it does still happen. His future memory is correct in mechanics, just not form. I also really liked the Harkonnen’s attacking so soon, it made the attack and the emperors plan feel very planned and villainously evil. And I really felt like the attack was devastating. Even though I knew the outcome because of the book, I was watching and it just seemed so obvious that there was no way the Atreides could possibly ever come back after the attack, even while it was going on.
I almost switched this off halfway, because I didn’t want it to make me like the movie less, but I’m glad I stuck through to the end. Not just for the *absolute treat* of hearing you read a passage of Dune, but to hear how much you enjoy the Lynch version. I’m not a fan of it, myself, (love Lynch’s other work) but I like DV’s Dune for the same reasons, it seems, that you like Lynch’s: I have the book memorized, and can imagine for myself all that isn’t there on the screen. Really, really respect your opinion on this, even if I disagree with it; you are a deeply eloquent dude, and your knowledge and love of the material shines through as always. Looking forward to more Dune videos!
I feel the same way. I respect Matt's opinion but I absolutely like DV's version better than the Lynch's. A nine hour series of movies for the first book would be incredible but I really don't believe it could happen.
I "liked" both, but i really liked DV's. Lynch didn't have a story, but it was awing to watch at a time when I hadn't read the book yet. This modern take on it actually has story and I felt awed, I think it'll reach out to a wider audience and draw more of the general public into the story being told. I too thought that the connection of Paul to the male figureheads in his life was weakened, but the connection to his mother was shown much stronger for it too.
A bit of an aside, but I found the dead and empty LA in BR2049 a natural progression from the first film. While the original Blade Runner's LA certainly felt alive and lived in, it was already showing signs of hollowing out. Sebastian's empty and mouldering apartment building, the advertisements for Mars settlements, and the rampant industrial pollution inside the city all signalled where things were going. After 30 years of continued off world settlement and environmental degradation, I don't think it would make much sense to have the city be much more than a husk. And I think the setting helped drive home the existentialist themes of the film as well. But different strokes for different folks.
I REALLY liked that in Blade Runner 2049 as well. The way that life is now either gone, decrepit or artificial. It felt like a facade or a simulacrum, something that gave the backdrop of the story a meaning to me, making it a sort of character. I really like the bleakness in both Blade Runner 2049 and Dune. The voidness give the main characters more gravity to me.
@@kgacalendar I think it worked really well in 2049. The way relationships with holograms and such was portrayed with the empty city made me think that, among other things, humans had largely secluded themselves from each other and opted not to reproduce. Seems like a plausible future for reality honestly. Dune less so, I think the lack of life to the city dampened the impact of it's destruction.
agreed... the biggest problem with that movie I felt was nothing of the new stuff that was added, just the stuff that got sewed into the story for no reason other than fanservice. damned Simple Rick's cookies mass produced to capitalize our nostalgia as a substitute for any substance and risk, we are definitely living in the worst timeline
Yeah, I really think that if you like that visual approach, emphasizing scale over detail, you'll mostly like Dune - and yes, I think Matthew is right to say that the movie doesn't add much to the book story wise, it mostly translates it in Denis's visual language ,that he's been developing over his last 3 films. He's even said to his teams that they were not here to express themselves, but to translate the book. I believe the movie to be a best case scenario for that approach, but I wish he'd have appropriated the story further. I really like the film, but I preferred 2049 because it's more self contained and more uncompromising. I hope the success of the first film will allow him to be more confident for the sequel, and maybe course correct a little.
I agree with your assessment. I saw the movie months ago in Europe. I will add that one part that I loved from the new Dune was when Gurney Halleck approaches Paul as he's tripping out on spice next to the harvester. He says something along the lines of "I can tell your foot steps, Old Man." As this was what Paul said to Gurney earlier, we are led to believe that it's about Gurney, but he's saying it as the sandworm approaches and you can hear the thumping. I think that I was the only person in the theater who was geeking out about that moment.
The big problem with that scene and that piece of dialog is that you will only understand the significance of it if you have read the book. There is no setup or reference for it in the movie so it is entirely a fan-service moment...
@@handlesarestupid154 Yes. Gurney's footsteps, and only Gurney's footsteps. But nowhere in the movie is it mentioned that Shai Hulud means 'The Old Man of the Desert', which is what the line 'I hear your footsteps Old Man' is referring to. The way that the line is delivered in the scene with the spice harvester is absolutely meant to have that particular double meaning, yet the movie never establishes this double meaning, thus you have to know it from the book.
Yeah, I was disappointed that they left the dinner scene out of the movie. It would have done a lot to make Arrakis feel like a thriving planet with regular people living out their lives.
Not just that. They left he whole Leto's break down from the stress of rulling and the Jessica's suspicion, and fake suspicion. I would actually enjoy a trilogy where it is devided the same way the book was. And another thing that they left out and was amazing was the tent scene. The fact they where confined to a tent, and that was Paul's awakening to becoming so much more was amazing. The fact sometimes, during that chapter, i forgot they where in a tent, and they had just escaped the Harkonen strike because his thoughs and vision was lightyears away of that, sold me on the feeling that he must have gone through. Instead we got awkward scene where they change clothes and have to look away from eachother.
All of the things that Matt has said about Dune over the years made it my most anticipated and enjoyed movie of like. The past decade. And now this is my most anticipated movie review of the decade!
@@christopherjohnston6343 I think that's simultaneously Dune 2021's biggest strength and weakness -- it made the film very accessible for nonfans but it seems a lot of fans had specific scenes/plotpoints/characterization they wanted to see that were missing, and therefore soured the experience for them.
I was coming here to say this. The feeling of deadness really drove home how dire the Atreides situation was below the surface. It really drove the "I thought we had more time" line in my mind. I would have loved to see that juxtaposed to more life in Arrakeen, though.
"It seems like the next day, the Harkonnens attack. We never got to see the Atreides ruling." Reading through Dune right now (after having seen the movie). I'm pretty sure that in the book, it actually *is* on the second night after their arrival that the Harkonnens attack. The banquet scene being missing is a huge loss though, as you say, and in general a lot of chatter between Leto and Jessica and their subordinates is missing. A lot less happens in those two days in the movie than in the book altogether.
Isn't the banquet itself already described like "so soon only after a week or two" or something? I don't remember, I just feel like that was the idea. Like at least there is an implication, that there is a time period between sending out the invites and the people accepting them and getting around to it. It's also probably on a different day than the incident with the carriol. Also the Atreides raid on Harkonnen spice supplies happen between their landing on Arrakis and the Harkonnen attack. Maybe more. There aren't any time measurements mentioned, but just the amount of events that happened is basically impossible to go down in just two days.
@@pettersonystrawman9291 Agree, also Paul after the hunter-seeker incident have to sleep in the room that Jessica found for some time. Remember that Paul was taking Mentat training that was usefull after the Harkonen attack. I also thought that Leto rule a month or two at least before the betray.
It's longer than a few days, somewhere between a couple months and a year as I recall. Time enough for decreased spice production to reduce the Atreides's standing with the other Houses of the Landsraad.
My brother in the Air Force worked on the tarmac in Las Vegas for 3 years. He always said even in all your gear, at 100 degrees, you don't sweat. It's too hot and dry. It evaporates as soon as it leaves your body. It's actually really dangerous because you don't notice and you can quickly become dehydrated. They're forced to take water breaks at specific times because you'll just forget. So I wasn't surprised to see people not sweat on Dune.
I sorely missed the banquet scene I think it’s so key to Paul and Jessica’s characters. I also hated that this version did Thufir even dirtier than Lynch’s or the Sci Fi channel mini series. I think Jessica’s freak out during Mohaim’s gom jabbar test was value added, but she should’ve been more stoic otherwise. Show her humanity, certainly, but don’t be afraid of her raw strength of will either.
I was fine with her being emotional during that scene. The love of her family came into conflict with the loyalty to the Bene Gesserit in a very real and immediate way. She clearly values her family more (having a son in direct disobedience, training Paul in secret etc).
@@tmage23 yeah, I agree with that, but she breaks down a couple more times and I think those were a bit gratuitous. Totally agree that the conflict between maternal love and Bene Gesserit indoctrination is a valid reason for even someone as strong as Jessica to visibly emote.
@@fdajax5107 hope so. I also think it was a mistake to cut both Yueh’s sub plot to the bone and omit the subplot where Thufir cast suspicion on Jessica. I guess at the end of the day I’m with Matt; the only way this was going to wow me was a mini series length production but with tent pole movie production values. As it is I’m not sad if exists, but I wasn’t blown away the way a lot of folks were.
The problem with the Bene Gesserit stoicism is that facial cues and dialogue are basically the only thing a movie audience has to go on, while a book can show their inner thoughts. Any visual adaptation has to make allowances for actors emote more than their book counterparts, that just comes with the territory.
When you say heart, I felt similar but instead I call in wonder. In the books, I fell in love with the world; in the movie I liked the action. The bit they got right for me was the scene on Salusa Secundus; and, from what I sae on the internet, that sas the scene that grabbed most people. Because it felt wonderous, a truly different place where things were different.
I feel like one of the hardest parts of making a movie from a book, is deciding what parts are important, which are interesting to see, not just to read, but also, what to add, what's not in the book, but still good. Given that I have not read the book, i still enjoyed the movie a lot, but understand what you mean, when talking about the issues, the movie had.
I appreciate the perspective of a "Dune guy", honestly. This movie was my first exposure to any of Dune at all--short of cultural osmosis about sandworms and such. I remember one of the first things I said to my friends after the movie ended was "There was so much cool worldbuilding here, how were _SANDWORMS_ the only thing pop culture absorbed?" I immensely enjoyed the film, but I'm definitely gonna have to read the book, now, I'm convinced of it.
I liked DV's Dune for exactly the reason you said there at the end. Of the three film versions of Dune, my favorite is actually the Sci-Fi Channel's miniseries... the acting and vfx were ok at best but it did the story justice.
The dinner scene is one of my favorite scenes from the book - I'm so happy that you point that out. I also really like the David Lynch DUNE adaptation, even though Lynch himself is not happy with it. All the set designs, casting and characters are just so great in it. I would love to run a DUNE campaign, but I always have this problem to set a campaign in that world that already has such a strong narrative going on. Same kinda applies for Middle-earth, Game of Thrones or Dragonlance. I would love to see a video on how you would go about to set something in that universe.
This was a fair critique. One thing about the new movie, it made me want to read the book. The Original movie (or at least the version I saw) didn’t do that for me
Everyone's mind shows them a different film when they read the book, but for me DV has absolutely and essentially captured the Book in myriad ways that Lynch wouldn't deign to. I disagree with Matt here. I think Film and Print are distinct enough that making a Direct representation of a book in film is automatically and necessarily an effort of interpretation even when the book is written as a screenplay, which Dune wasn't. Watching this new film, it is super satisfying to say "well of course that's what that scene looks like"...the poison tooth scene especially. I loved the book, World War Z. The director could have made a beautiful wonderful deep film but instead made a typical saccharine zombie action film.
I agree with most everything you said, but I still loved the film. However, Blade Runner 2049 is one of my favourite films of all time, so there's obviously something about the director's style that resonates with me. I honestly don't know how to adapt Dune without making it boring. The book is phenomenal, and uses its medium to maximum potential. To translate the insight we get into the very being of these characters into film would seem to either require voiceover, or externalized emotions/reactions, which would be antithetical to the extreme control these people practice and have over themselves. That externalizing is what ruined lady Jessica in the film for me - the most egregious sin that was committed next to the loss of Thufir and exploration of mentats in general. What we got in return, however, was an accessible film that made sense to a lot of people. In my wife's words, it made more sense to her than Star Wars. Take that as you will, but it impressed the hell out of me. We've had two genius filmmakers tackle this beast and sort of succeed in their own ways, but no one has really been able to dig into the meat of Dune in my opinion. I'm starting to buy the old rhetoric that Dune is unfilmable, but what do I know - I'm no genius filmmaker.
I think it is easily filmable. Just as part of a series instead of a movie. It had opportunity to be the sci-fi version of Game of Thrones with multiple seasons for story and character development. Instead they tried to cram too much into a 2.5 hour first movie. The first book could have easily been its own 10 episode season or even break it up like the movie does but instead, into 16 episodes over 2 seasons. Then at least 1 season for each of the following books.
@@Miskatonic1927 Let's say you take a full season of television to adapt it - yeah, you get more content from the novel on the screen and show more of the intricacies. But I don't think it would be good necessarily. You would either need to slow every moment down to a crawl, which may not actually add anything, or add filler content to flesh things out. That second option is where I see the most potential. We could do more of what the book does, but in a way that's suitable for visual media. Though, Messiah doesn't really need a whole series, so maybe you could do them both in one. An adaptation has to have some sort of purpose, and needs to take advantage of its medium. I don't think cramming more scenes from the book onto the screen is necessarily the answer to the adaptation problem. That wouldn't necessarily fix the problems with getting into these particular characters' heads. I think where this adaptation succeeds, at least, is in how they showed me things I'd never imagined before. Things like the heighliner design, or the bombs the Harkonnen used to breach shields and how the physics of that all interacted. At best, my feelings are that this could have been a trilogy instead of 2 parts (which brings us up to 9 hours - pretty close to a modern season of television actually), but I don't think they were ever going to get 4 films. He had a shot to do Dune and Messiah with 3 films if the first one did well, and he took his shot. You really need to adapt Messiah if you're adapting Dune to wrap up Paul's story, and I'm glad that that's the plan.
As someone who’s never known anything about Dune I disagree with you, I don’t find this film “accessible” at all. It felt simultaneously like it threw everything it could at you but also nothing at the same time. It explained next to nothing either by showing or telling (though the scene of the fight to the death at the end was an exception as was Paul’s vision of Duncan’s death and how it was played out). The movie felt so empty but like it expected you to have grasped all that it was trying to fill you with at the same time. There were many names and places and important concepts that came and went but no actual expansion on them. As others who love Dune have mentioned they make no mention of Mentets but they’re very important to the series as I’m told. That seems like a big thing to leave out.
@@trexdrew I can agree with what you said in the sense that my wife didn't really get the sorts of details you're talking about. She's never read Dune, isn't into sci-fi - she really just lets me drag her to these things to humour me. But she understood what the story was about, and the broad strokes of what was going on from moment to moment. The film was coherent without nerd knowledge, which can't be said of a lot of these sorts of sci-fi productions that are adaptations or continuations of an IP. Us nerds can be in it for those details, but there's something I appreciate about other folks being able to enjoy something I love as well.
The new movie brought me to the novel after putting it off for many years. The last chapter I read was the dinner scene Matt described. When it was done I immediately thought, "I wish the new movie was a tv show like GoT or TWoT".
Exactly. It should have been a series. The first book could easily have been a 10 episode first season or even 16 episodes over 2 seasons before turning the other books into at least 1 season each. Could have been the next Game of Thrones where we actually feel for the characters and get extensive plot and character development.
The dinner scene is precisely the first thing I mentioned to my friends when we left the theater. I'm so glad someone else brought it up, as it was a scene I really loved in the book and just knew it wouldn't appear in the film.
Just watched This film with the family and felt the exact same way. Seems to be a trend, in my eyes, that filmmakers have forgotten how to make full length scenes, how to show us characters enough to care about them, and how to mix audio and direct speech so that even in dramatic moments you can hear what people are saying.
What a fair and even handed assessment, good on you Matt. The only thing I would say, and am curious about myself is this: from the behind the scenes/interviews we've seen, it looked like they filmed most of the book up to the fall of the city and simply cut parts out to make time. I'm wondering if the cut content is where the "heart" of the film is, and if an extended/director cut would be able to bring the heart to the screen.
If you have to cut out the heart, then you've already failed at the adaptation. I am getting kind of tired that movies have to be "saved" by including things that should have been in the release but were cut for other reasons. We were delivered a shambling corpse but it is suddenly okay when they resurrect it after the fact? At first it was quaint and served a purpose... now it feels like marketing execs have realized that they can get people to pay twice for something and so we're going to get artificially "cut" movies.
It really felt like it had been pared down to the quick - every shot feels like it could go on longer. It seems they were shaving even frames of its runtime. So there's a good chance entire sceneswere dropped, too.
I was genuinely starting to worry if something was wrong with me, Its such a relief that someone feel the same way I do. Thankyou Matt, i hope this more validation of your choice to make this episode.
One of my biggest gripes about the movie (in addition to the lack of regular people in any of the wide shots of the almost hex-square/Civ-like city of Arrakeen) was that it felt like all of the characters had also read the script, knew what the deal was on a meta level and they were just marching towards their destinies.
See the design of Arrakeen made complete sense to me. To me the Linch version of the city is like a massive version of the Lars Homestead. Everything important is covered or underground to protect it from desert storms and heat.
Regular people aren’t important in the Dune universe, certainly not to the nobles. I thought the portrayal of “fate that cannot be altered” was great - it’s one of the themes of Dune and Paul’s realisation that he has little control over his fate was expressed very well in the movie. In the tent scene he rages against it, directing his anger at Jessica, and after the duel with Jamis he mourns it.
"... or maybe the Rush guy. I'm down with all that." I mean, yes I noticed the shirts but I remember more for "that writer who talks about his style of running D&D in the same way Alton Brown talks about cooking".
Dune has had an important place in my heart for several years now. Frank Herbert's books remain some of the very few books I have returned to repeatedly over the years, with me being excited for this movie, and it has been the only time I went to the theatre in well over a year. I really enjoyed it greatly. I think Villeneuve did a really strong job adapting the book, and it was clear how much thought and passion went into crafting the film (I found him discussing the Gom Jabbar scene on the Vanity Fair TH-cam to be fascinating). I really liked the film. It was extremely cathartic to see scenes that meant so much to me depicted with respect and no shortage of craft. That said, I agree with every point you made. Hearing your thoughts has not decreased my enjoyment in any way, but you have given some fascinating insight on one of the core aspects of the series that make it so special to me. For that I thank you Matt. You have also convinced me to see both Lawrence of Arabia and the David Lynch Dune movie.
"Moments stolen from money men." I love that line!!! I call it breathing into moments when I beta read and I'm craving some character development, a moment of pause. But novels are different than movies, but a moment, just a moment to breathe, I still find is important to really make the art sing longer in audience's minds.
I really do wish, they had the bravery to make this Dune version a very high budget show like GoT. That would hopefully have left room for breathing and keeping these important scenes in place because the story is clearly a political thriller that thrives on tension. Villeneuve did a great job in the first hour or so, as ever (like Sicario), building in the oppressive dread of taking over Dune and foreshadowing that it is a poisoned chalice. But I agree that we needed to live there, get lost in the local details, and get lulled into thinking the betrayal was more in the background. I feel like there's so much of the bones of structure from the early GoT seasons that they could have learned from and used. It's just a shame we won't get the chance to see it.
Exactly! They should have turned the first book into at least a 10 episode first season or even 16 episodes over 2 seasons. And then at least 1 season for each of the other books. I would rather have more story and character development than big screen special effects.
@@Miskatonic1927 Yes. The material and framework is obviously there from the book. How the sandworms and ornithopters were realized, I would miss if not reproduced similarly. But I wonder what visuals would really have been compromised by the kind of budget a show would bring.
I saw what actually happened with Jammis as Paul's vision being more metaphorical. In a way Jammis did show Paul how to be a friend, what the desert is about, it just played out differently. It's kind of like how Chani stabbing him in his vision was representative of him receiving the night from her, a metaphor. That said, he also watches his fight several times through his presence, so it isn't necessarily all metaphor.
Giving Jamis that line in the vision - showing an alternate timeline of what could’ve been - hints at how a lot could’ve happened in that timeline. Maybe Paul told him about that mentat rule and later on when teaching Paul about the desert, Jamis repeated it back to him since it was applicable to the situation. That or Paul was tripping hard enough on the spice in the air at the time that his precognitive abilities mixed with his memories and pulled the line from his memory while guiding Paul towards Jamis.
I love how I can disagree with Matt on some points while still respecting his reasoning and feelings on these points. This man ís articulate. So beautifully representative that he picked the dinner scene. Thanks for the review Matt!
Thanks for sharing! For me, my Dune movie is the SyFy mini series. Obviously not a big budget masterpiece, but it had some wonderful acting and was able to cover the events of the book with good pacing
I felt like the depiction of Jessica in this movie was meant to emphasize her perspective as Paul's mother. Everything about her seemed to be steeped with her regret and dread for his fate, except for the scenes that weren't about Paul, like the Shadout Mapes scene. I did enjoy one change with Jessica. They didn't have a subplot where Leto had to pretend he suspected her of being a traitor, and he actually tells her directly that he should have married her. Though this is also because there was almost no time spent on Arrakis at all. Incidentally, everyone I've talked to said they wouldn't have minded if the movie was longer, or at least that it never felt long.
@matthew colville. Because of you I went out to the final showing of DUNE 40th anniversary on Tuesday. Revisiting your DUNE videos today to be reminded of how I became a fan in the first place. Thanks Matt!
Dune 2021 was my first experience of the IP, I watched it a couple of times, enjoyed it. I then read Dune and following that watched the Lynch version, extended and fan edit variants. I would have loved to see more of the book in the 2021 film, the greenhouse, the banquet, confirmation of Paul's mentat training.
You know, it is interesting. Most people I hear talking about the visions in the new movie seem to agree on the idea that they are full of visions which are from alternate timelines, futures which no longer exist. After hearing that argument, I can kind of agree, but I haven't heard many people talking about what I thought: that the visions are mostly metaphor. That Jamis is teaching him because Jamis's death leads to his acceptance in the sietch. That we see chani stab him, and jamis kill him, because paul 'dies' with killing Jamis, and they both played their parts in that event.
The banquet scene is so important in the book, not just because of how you see Paul step into leadership, which is important to establish before he goes into the desert, but also because it gives you a better understanding of the subsidiary cultural and political landscape of the empire. The scene in the movie that ALMOST does that is when the herald of the change comes to Caladan, but you don’t see the factions outside of the trappings of ceremony. You don’t see the people under the allegiances, the individuals who break the rules and make the choices that change the entire society.
My 2 best friends and I saw dune together. I had read the book for the within a year, one of them had read the book a few years ago, and the other had read the first 2/3rds of the book the day before we went to the movie. I remember that friend texting me the day before we went to the theatre as he was reading the book “holy shit, the dinner scene is amazing.” I wish there had been more scenes like that in the movie. Another noteworthy thing is that the guy who had read dune least recently enjoyed the movie the most out of the three of us. Idk what that says about the film per se, but I thought it was worth noting.
My interpretation of the Jamis visions, was that they were metaphorical. That Jamis, by dying at the hand of Paul, was solidifying Paul's entry into Fremen society. He taught Paul the ways of the desert through his death. Many of the other visions foreshadow this as well, with the repeated emphasis on the knife, and the significance of taking a life.
I'm glad I wasn't the only old school Dune person who felt this way about the movie. It was just SO long and at times felt emotionally flat. I just wanted it to be something different than it was. And I could hardly hear the dialogue over the WAY too loud soundtrack. That I can't remember a single bar of now. All the best Matt.
my first thought when i saw the scene with the visions was, they came true in a totally unexpected way... with a smile he said "ill teach you the ways of the desert", in reality the guy was an ass and tried to kill him, but unintentionally teaching paul how to kill did teach him the ways of the desert... dreams sometimes work like this in real life, and leto the 2nd mentions this in book 4, that visions of the future are like bubbles falling into a stream, you see a glimps but then its up to fate or nature
The movie got right what was most impactful for me from the book: the inexorable weight of prescience, the collapse (of the illusion) of free will and Herbert's core theme about the usurpation of a prophet on any society.
part of the thing I like about the vision of Jamis is that he *did* teach Paul the ways of the Fremen. It's oracular vagueness *and* an alternative future.
I forgive a lot of the cuts made to the movie (even though the banquet was my favorite part of the book) because I felt as though Villeneuve wanted to have them in there, but was forced to cut them by the studio. He has said himself something to the effect of, "Every movie is a series of successes and failures. I feel like there are some parts of the movie that did not live up to my expectations" and then I believe he goes on to talk about the Gom Jabbar scene. I absolutely loved the new Dune, because I felt there was a lot of heart. To me, it felt like a love letter to Frank Herbert, and I got the impression that everyone was trying their level best to do a great job. Having said that, I don't begrudge you any of these points you made because I feel they're entirely subjective.
The Atreides ruled Arrakis for a very short time. Gurney arrives with the last of the Atreides warriors and is sent to convince the smugglers to stay before the Heighliner has left - this is already after Paul’s encounter with the hunter-seeker. The same day, Paul’s first staff meeting occurs and he already realises things are going poorly for the Atreides. Maybe a day or two later they meet Kynes and go out into the desert to see spice harvesting. About a week later is the dinner party; Leto tells Paul about pretending to suspect Jessica, and on the night of the dinner she thinks how cold the Duke has been for a week or so. Then, two days later, the Harkonnen spring their trap.
11:44 - some of the most memorable moments of the original animated Ghost in the Shell for me have been the long, uneventful, mostly static city shots set to that meditative, very specific music. This "downtime" brought focus onto the environment (or a sole character) and let viewers pause and think and process and feel, before moving on to the next stage of the story. So many... products nowadays have absolutely no time for that - they're an unending, unstoppable rollercoaster ride... except no one seems to understand that when there's no lows, you'll never get to feel what's actually exciting about a high.
Having read the books I found it hard to judge the film, so I asked a friend of mine what they thought of it. They said "Yeah I liked it, it was a pretty good movie, but kind of predictable. It is obvious that the Duke is going to die." And then I realized the disconnect between the movie and the book.
I'm so glad you made this! I really loved seeing Dune (2021), but there was definitely something off that I couldn't put my finger on. The pacing! You're on point. I did notice the absence of the dinner party as well, which surprised me as it's one of my favorite moments in the book.
It's fascinating to me that you brought up that particular scene from the book. It's been a few decades since I last read the book, but that is one moment I still think about.
I watched some of your stream that was on this channel and I really enjoyed your take on movie reviews and reviewers. I felt it when you called out people who watch/read reviews to see if a person they respect's opinion aligns with their own; and solely for that reason. I thought your analysis of the movie and your criticisms do add to my understanding and appreciation of it. So thanks, I guess.
Damn! Matt put all my thoughts into something actually coherent. For weeks my friends kept asking why I didn't love Dune 2021, now I can say watch this guy spell it out for you. Well Done, Sir. Well Done.
I’ve not read the book, but this film had one of the strangest senses of pace to me of anything I’ve ever seen. Like there was no rising action; events logically bore consequence to what followed, but everything was so detached that it seemed as though I were a distant observer of predestined events. Based off what I understand about where the books end up, I might be a worm god-man.
This is not the fault of the movie; the book itself is paced in a weird way, too. It's dialogue-heavy, with the first half of it being being basically introduction to characters. No action, just slowly unraveling a tapestry of politics and internal conflicts. Obviously, this is part of why Dune is a spectacular piece of writing and a great book.
I keep putting off seeing this movie as the all the previews, both clips and stills, clashed with my vision of what Arrakis should look like and more over that the characters deviated from what I envisioned when I read the book. Jason Mamoa is the only character that appeared within the realm of what I envisioned while reading. I will have to sit with my father and maybe go watch it with him. My father is the biggest Dune fan I know and once God Emperor of Dune was released I started gifting him the novels (as an aside the Dune novels were interspersed with the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant) and watched the David Lynch film with him when it came out. At least I don't have to worry about disliking something that my cousin worked on the effects for, as he worked on Terminator: Dark Fate and the Black Widow movie while this was in production.
My favorite version of the Dune movie is the "Spicediver Edit," which you probably already know about. If you don't, it's a 3 hour fan-edit that splices together all the different cuts of the Lynch movie, along with deleted scenes, into a coherent story line. You can probably still find it on youtube.
I don't know the California desert, but I have been in the desert in Kuwait. Kuwait's desert is, as I like to describe it, southern Saskatchewan without the interesting landscape. It's not only flat, there isn't even grass. It's just flat dull grey brown dust as far as you can see, in some of the places. You can see for miles. It's next to the Gulf, which means in the early morning with the sun rising over it, looking east you're absolutely blinded by the reflection of the light off the waves. But it's like the brilliance of glass shards, not diamonds. Bright and sharp colours, but harsh more than beautiful. The heat in summer there is immense. I would tell people that you knew it was summer in Kuwait when the temperature never dipped below 40C (about 105F) in the daytime. At night it might cool somewhat below, but noonday... The duststorms turn the sun to a dim brown lightbulb. They coat everything in layers of grit. Housecleaning is a nightmare because there isn't great sealant on windows and doors, and it all gets through. When the wind is bad, a dust storm can almost literally do mild sandblasting of cars and buildings. But ultimately, because of my experiences there, there's one thing that I would always want a movie to communicate about a desert. The silence. When you're out in that desert away from people, engines off, no traffic nearby, no constant sound of civilization? The silence is so loud it hurts your ears. You're straining for anything, any sound to come by at all. Everything sounds too loud. You're almost afraid to speak loudly into it, like it'll break something. There's a reason religious people fled to the desert to get away from the evils of cities; the desert fathers of Christianity, for one. There's a solitude there like nowhere else. During the day there's little other life to be seen, and the sun is not a giver of life, but a destroyer. There, you gain a new appreciation for rain, life in liquid form that causes dormant seeds of grasses and flowers to bloom overnight in colors too bright and brilliant to be believed, only to be withered, faded, or desiccated three days later. It's as though because their lives are so short therefore the colors they display are more vibrant, all the more beautiful for their transience. That's what I want to see portrayed.
They would have had time for the banquet scene if they trimmed back the 17 minutes or so of Paul having visions of Chani looking over her shoulder at him. But those shots were probably contractually necessary to get Zendaya onboard as a credited co-star.
Two things I reeeeeallly liked about D2021: 1) The scene where Paul and Jessica are in the tent in the desert: Timothee really nailed the visions of Paul becoming the god and unleashing the jihad 2) The duel at the end of the movie, when Chani is convinced that Jamis is the better warrior and Paul will die. The grittiness and scope really made me feel the gravitas of the scene.
If the animators need something to animate while people talk they should watch you. The eyebrow movements at 13:28 gave me a spit take. I see why the mentats are your favorite. Love your commitment, this was spot on.
Just watch Lawrence of Arabia for the first time. Thank you, Matt! I was blown away. My Dad and I watched it together and we both thought, "They don't make movies like this anymore." Would you sometime talk about what you think happened to modern Hollywood? It seems like so few movies can commit to a slow story that really makes you think.
As an artist I love seeking critiques from my peers because they have good ideas that they give to you. So I’m not surprised frank Herbert did the same thing. It’s how good artist operate.
"I don't think a movie should just be a book, filmed." This was my reaction to hunger games 1. It was basically a scene for scene perfect adaptation and I came away going "well I'd already seen all that in my head." No one making the hunger games imagined anything better than I did and they are professional imaginations.
Okay Matt... Now i want full audiobook Dune read by you! I know you don't have time, sorry. But gosh, you did a great job reading that part. I lived it.
Jamis teaching paul was a metaphor for Jamis being the first person Paul killed, and teaching him very fundamentally about the reality of life and death with the Fremen. I think less it was the movie telling us that his visions can be *wrong* and more the movie telling us that his visions are more prophecy-like, and more metaphorical than his prescience is in the books. I think it's a change in how Paul's powers work rather than an example of how his powers work. I think this also explains why Jamis would be speaking knowledge that he doesn't actually have in the vision, because the vision is a synthesis of Paul seeing the future and things that he already knows.
My own thought was that this movie is very focused on efficiently conveying the plot. The way they chose to incorporate some humanity into that plot was by hiring charismatic actors. Jason Mamoa is really just the most striking example - all these actors have the ability to convey serious plot dialogue while still seeming like nice people. That's pretty hard to do.
That's the thing that caught my mind to this movie as well. That they called him 'his friend' well before he met him. And Paul was seeing alternate futures where Jamis was his mentor. When Paul had to kill his friend he sealed off that alternate future. His friend guided him even with his own death. It made me think. Yeah they didn't use the Mentats enough either.
Thanks for sharing! I enjoyed it plenty, but I've merely osmosed a bunch of Dune's story and setting through your videos and through friends. I do really wish the dinner scene were there. When I first heard about it I was sad to hear it was removed.
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I think something we all admire in Matt is his intellectual honesty. He doesn't fawn, he doesn't pander even when honestly there are parts of me that want him to. I really enjoyed the new Dune and when i saw the "drift" of this review I kinda wanted to drop out. I'm so glad i stuck it out. Matt's criticisms are valid and insightful. I like the way he can critique something and yet not come off as a judgmental ass. That is a skill few possess especially in this day and age. Rock on Matt, you are appreciated.
I liked the depiction of Heighliners; that they are almost worm-like. That they fold space, seemingly at both locations, and that ships simply fly through; literal worm-holes
I finally saw this on the third watch, when the view of space in the ship donut hole looked different!
I like your interpretation of the Heighliner ships!
Wish we could have seen the Guild Navigators folding space, one of the best scenes from Lynch's film that was missing from the book.
I really liked that tok. Totally didn't twig to them resembling Worms though. That's a neat interpretation.
"worms' that make "wormholes" when they travel, which collapses behind them when they "move". And they run on Spice to boot
I noticed the pacing issue when i realized that Leto and Jessica literally don't speak to each other before the night of attack. And then I realized Yueh doesn't have like any scene. And there was no scene with Jessica and Hawat, and now you remind me the banquet scene... Man, there is like no downtime in this campaign.
The movie begs for like 30-40 minutes of more time in act 2
@@MCXL1140 The movie is stupidly long as it is. Some things are going to be lost, especially when it comes to a book with as epic a scale as Dune.
@@mbartelsm it's not about losing things, it's about pacing.
Lawrence of Arabia is 3 hours and 47 minutes long, and it's arguably the greatest film of all time.
Stupidly long isn't a thing.
@@mbartelsm Book have an epic scale but movie covering the book would be stupidly long? Don't think thats how it work. It easily could have 30 minutes of great dialogs between great characters and it wouldn't feel longer. MCXL is mentioning Lawrence of Arabia, but even Return of the king have 201 min, 45 more than this Dune.
@@mbartelsm A lot of the things left out of this version of Dune made it into that weird-ass David Lynch film and this film has the benefit of being a two-parter. They told less of the story in part one than the Lynch version did in the like... 45 minutes or an hour that it had.
The problem is simple. I've read the interviews with the screenwriter/script writer and he is pretty straightforward that there was a *lot* of the book he just didn't like or think was important. And he was like "Oh Dune is just a really simple story when you get down to it so we stripped out everything but the core story".
It was kind of bewildering because it's obvious Villeneuve is bonkers for the story and includes tiny details and textures in the film that show a love for the source material.
I also loved the flash-forwards to Jamis teaching Paul the ways of the desert, and then the only interaction that they have is the fight to the death, which in reality IS Jamis teaching Paul the ways of the desert. I can’t remember but I think in the book the fight to the death is sorta framed as Paul learning what it is to be a Fremen, but I still think it’s a cool that Paul sees Jamis teaching him the ways of the desert, and then even though it doesn’t happen the way Paul remembered, it does still happen. His future memory is correct in mechanics, just not form.
I also really liked the Harkonnen’s attacking so soon, it made the attack and the emperors plan feel very planned and villainously evil. And I really felt like the attack was devastating. Even though I knew the outcome because of the book, I was watching and it just seemed so obvious that there was no way the Atreides could possibly ever come back after the attack, even while it was going on.
Glad I looked through, I was just about to comment this. There are so many layers to be explored in the Jamis change 💖
🤣 wish I had seen your comment. I posted one saying something very similar.
Yeah, I read the visions in the film more as loosely prophetic imagery than literal scenes happening in a future timeline.
I almost switched this off halfway, because I didn’t want it to make me like the movie less, but I’m glad I stuck through to the end. Not just for the *absolute treat* of hearing you read a passage of Dune, but to hear how much you enjoy the Lynch version. I’m not a fan of it, myself, (love Lynch’s other work) but I like DV’s Dune for the same reasons, it seems, that you like Lynch’s: I have the book memorized, and can imagine for myself all that isn’t there on the screen.
Really, really respect your opinion on this, even if I disagree with it; you are a deeply eloquent dude, and your knowledge and love of the material shines through as always. Looking forward to more Dune videos!
I feel the same way. I respect Matt's opinion but I absolutely like DV's version better than the Lynch's. A nine hour series of movies for the first book would be incredible but I really don't believe it could happen.
I "liked" both, but i really liked DV's. Lynch didn't have a story, but it was awing to watch at a time when I hadn't read the book yet. This modern take on it actually has story and I felt awed, I think it'll reach out to a wider audience and draw more of the general public into the story being told. I too thought that the connection of Paul to the male figureheads in his life was weakened, but the connection to his mother was shown much stronger for it too.
A bit of an aside, but I found the dead and empty LA in BR2049 a natural progression from the first film. While the original Blade Runner's LA certainly felt alive and lived in, it was already showing signs of hollowing out. Sebastian's empty and mouldering apartment building, the advertisements for Mars settlements, and the rampant industrial pollution inside the city all signalled where things were going. After 30 years of continued off world settlement and environmental degradation, I don't think it would make much sense to have the city be much more than a husk. And I think the setting helped drive home the existentialist themes of the film as well. But different strokes for different folks.
Yeah, I agreed. And BR2049 LA is actually closer to the original book that BR is based upon.
I REALLY liked that in Blade Runner 2049 as well. The way that life is now either gone, decrepit or artificial. It felt like a facade or a simulacrum, something that gave the backdrop of the story a meaning to me, making it a sort of character. I really like the bleakness in both Blade Runner 2049 and Dune. The voidness give the main characters more gravity to me.
@@kgacalendar I think it worked really well in 2049. The way relationships with holograms and such was portrayed with the empty city made me think that, among other things, humans had largely secluded themselves from each other and opted not to reproduce. Seems like a plausible future for reality honestly.
Dune less so, I think the lack of life to the city dampened the impact of it's destruction.
agreed... the biggest problem with that movie I felt was nothing of the new stuff that was added, just the stuff that got sewed into the story for no reason other than fanservice.
damned Simple Rick's cookies mass produced to capitalize our nostalgia as a substitute for any substance and risk, we are definitely living in the worst timeline
Yeah, I really think that if you like that visual approach, emphasizing scale over detail, you'll mostly like Dune - and yes, I think Matthew is right to say that the movie doesn't add much to the book story wise, it mostly translates it in Denis's visual language ,that he's been developing over his last 3 films.
He's even said to his teams that they were not here to express themselves, but to translate the book. I believe the movie to be a best case scenario for that approach, but I wish he'd have appropriated the story further.
I really like the film, but I preferred 2049 because it's more self contained and more uncompromising.
I hope the success of the first film will allow him to be more confident for the sequel, and maybe course correct a little.
I agree with your assessment. I saw the movie months ago in Europe. I will add that one part that I loved from the new Dune was when Gurney Halleck approaches Paul as he's tripping out on spice next to the harvester. He says something along the lines of "I can tell your foot steps, Old Man." As this was what Paul said to Gurney earlier, we are led to believe that it's about Gurney, but he's saying it as the sandworm approaches and you can hear the thumping. I think that I was the only person in the theater who was geeking out about that moment.
The big problem with that scene and that piece of dialog is that you will only understand the significance of it if you have read the book. There is no setup or reference for it in the movie so it is entirely a fan-service moment...
@@TheJarlOfJyttland he literally mentions knowing his footsteps in the movie
@@handlesarestupid154 Yes. Gurney's footsteps, and only Gurney's footsteps. But nowhere in the movie is it mentioned that Shai Hulud means 'The Old Man of the Desert', which is what the line 'I hear your footsteps Old Man' is referring to. The way that the line is delivered in the scene with the spice harvester is absolutely meant to have that particular double meaning, yet the movie never establishes this double meaning, thus you have to know it from the book.
That line was good enough that I thought it was from the books and I'd just forgotten.
@@TheJarlOfJyttland Maybe, but the alternative would likely have had all the subtlety of a wrecking ball.
Yeah, I was disappointed that they left the dinner scene out of the movie. It would have done a lot to make Arrakis feel like a thriving planet with regular people living out their lives.
Not just that. They left he whole Leto's break down from the stress of rulling and the Jessica's suspicion, and fake suspicion. I would actually enjoy a trilogy where it is devided the same way the book was.
And another thing that they left out and was amazing was the tent scene. The fact they where confined to a tent, and that was Paul's awakening to becoming so much more was amazing. The fact sometimes, during that chapter, i forgot they where in a tent, and they had just escaped the Harkonen strike because his thoughs and vision was lightyears away of that, sold me on the feeling that he must have gone through. Instead we got awkward scene where they change clothes and have to look away from eachother.
Did you take a bathroom break and miss the tent scene?
All of the things that Matt has said about Dune over the years made it my most anticipated and enjoyed movie of like. The past decade. And now this is my most anticipated movie review of the decade!
I thought Arrakeen looked really good for a specific purpose. The city is the necropolis of House Atredies.
Without really knowing the books I just assumed it was something largely built but house Harkonan.
@@christopherjohnston6343 I think that's simultaneously Dune 2021's biggest strength and weakness -- it made the film very accessible for nonfans but it seems a lot of fans had specific scenes/plotpoints/characterization they wanted to see that were missing, and therefore soured the experience for them.
@@sudoscientist the curse of all book to movie adaptations. Though I'm much more likely to get into Dune now than I was before seeing the film
I was coming here to say this. The feeling of deadness really drove home how dire the Atreides situation was below the surface. It really drove the "I thought we had more time" line in my mind.
I would have loved to see that juxtaposed to more life in Arrakeen, though.
It also withstands the weather a Arrakis. I think nothing but what we see depicted would make sense in such an environment.
"It seems like the next day, the Harkonnens attack. We never got to see the Atreides ruling."
Reading through Dune right now (after having seen the movie). I'm pretty sure that in the book, it actually *is* on the second night after their arrival that the Harkonnens attack.
The banquet scene being missing is a huge loss though, as you say, and in general a lot of chatter between Leto and Jessica and their subordinates is missing. A lot less happens in those two days in the movie than in the book altogether.
I can't remember, but it felt like much longer than two days
Me, I did not get that impression. Like there might only be a few days described, but I'd say it'd be a few months at least.
Isn't the banquet itself already described like "so soon only after a week or two" or something? I don't remember, I just feel like that was the idea. Like at least there is an implication, that there is a time period between sending out the invites and the people accepting them and getting around to it. It's also probably on a different day than the incident with the carriol. Also the Atreides raid on Harkonnen spice supplies happen between their landing on Arrakis and the Harkonnen attack. Maybe more. There aren't any time measurements mentioned, but just the amount of events that happened is basically impossible to go down in just two days.
@@pettersonystrawman9291 Agree, also Paul after the hunter-seeker incident have to sleep in the room that Jessica found for some time. Remember that Paul was taking Mentat training that was usefull after the Harkonen attack. I also thought that Leto rule a month or two at least before the betray.
It's longer than a few days, somewhere between a couple months and a year as I recall. Time enough for decreased spice production to reduce the Atreides's standing with the other Houses of the Landsraad.
My brother in the Air Force worked on the tarmac in Las Vegas for 3 years. He always said even in all your gear, at 100 degrees, you don't sweat. It's too hot and dry. It evaporates as soon as it leaves your body. It's actually really dangerous because you don't notice and you can quickly become dehydrated. They're forced to take water breaks at specific times because you'll just forget. So I wasn't surprised to see people not sweat on Dune.
I sorely missed the banquet scene I think it’s so key to Paul and Jessica’s characters.
I also hated that this version did Thufir even dirtier than Lynch’s or the Sci Fi channel mini series.
I think Jessica’s freak out during Mohaim’s gom jabbar test was value added, but she should’ve been more stoic otherwise. Show her humanity, certainly, but don’t be afraid of her raw strength of will either.
I was fine with her being emotional during that scene. The love of her family came into conflict with the loyalty to the Bene Gesserit in a very real and immediate way. She clearly values her family more (having a son in direct disobedience, training Paul in secret etc).
@@tmage23 yeah, I agree with that, but she breaks down a couple more times and I think those were a bit gratuitous. Totally agree that the conflict between maternal love and Bene Gesserit indoctrination is a valid reason for even someone as strong as Jessica to visibly emote.
I think Thufir will have more screentime in part 2, the problem with the 1st book of dune was all the different characters.
@@fdajax5107 hope so. I also think it was a mistake to cut both Yueh’s sub plot to the bone and omit the subplot where Thufir cast suspicion on Jessica.
I guess at the end of the day I’m with Matt; the only way this was going to wow me was a mini series length production but with tent pole movie production values.
As it is I’m not sad if exists, but I wasn’t blown away the way a lot of folks were.
The problem with the Bene Gesserit stoicism is that facial cues and dialogue are basically the only thing a movie audience has to go on, while a book can show their inner thoughts. Any visual adaptation has to make allowances for actors emote more than their book counterparts, that just comes with the territory.
"Well, sh!t, I can't do that" is now one of my favorite new MCDM quotes.
Well played good sir!
And thank you for your thoughts.
When you say heart, I felt similar but instead I call in wonder. In the books, I fell in love with the world; in the movie I liked the action.
The bit they got right for me was the scene on Salusa Secundus; and, from what I sae on the internet, that sas the scene that grabbed most people. Because it felt wonderous, a truly different place where things were different.
I feel like one of the hardest parts of making a movie from a book, is deciding what parts are important, which are interesting to see, not just to read, but also, what to add, what's not in the book, but still good.
Given that I have not read the book, i still enjoyed the movie a lot, but understand what you mean, when talking about the issues, the movie had.
I appreciate the perspective of a "Dune guy", honestly. This movie was my first exposure to any of Dune at all--short of cultural osmosis about sandworms and such. I remember one of the first things I said to my friends after the movie ended was "There was so much cool worldbuilding here, how were _SANDWORMS_ the only thing pop culture absorbed?"
I immensely enjoyed the film, but I'm definitely gonna have to read the book, now, I'm convinced of it.
I liked DV's Dune for exactly the reason you said there at the end. Of the three film versions of Dune, my favorite is actually the Sci-Fi Channel's miniseries... the acting and vfx were ok at best but it did the story justice.
The dinner scene is one of my favorite scenes from the book - I'm so happy that you point that out.
I also really like the David Lynch DUNE adaptation, even though Lynch himself is not happy with it. All the set designs, casting and characters are just so great in it.
I would love to run a DUNE campaign, but I always have this problem to set a campaign in that world that already has such a strong narrative going on. Same kinda applies for Middle-earth, Game of Thrones or Dragonlance. I would love to see a video on how you would go about to set something in that universe.
This was a fair critique. One thing about the new movie, it made me want to read the book. The Original movie (or at least the version I saw) didn’t do that for me
Everyone's mind shows them a different film when they read the book, but for me DV has absolutely and essentially captured the Book in myriad ways that Lynch wouldn't deign to.
I disagree with Matt here. I think Film and Print are distinct enough that making a Direct representation of a book in film is automatically and necessarily an effort of interpretation even when the book is written as a screenplay, which Dune wasn't.
Watching this new film, it is super satisfying to say "well of course that's what that scene looks like"...the poison tooth scene especially.
I loved the book, World War Z. The director could have made a beautiful wonderful deep film but instead made a typical saccharine zombie action film.
Same
I agree with most everything you said, but I still loved the film. However, Blade Runner 2049 is one of my favourite films of all time, so there's obviously something about the director's style that resonates with me.
I honestly don't know how to adapt Dune without making it boring. The book is phenomenal, and uses its medium to maximum potential. To translate the insight we get into the very being of these characters into film would seem to either require voiceover, or externalized emotions/reactions, which would be antithetical to the extreme control these people practice and have over themselves. That externalizing is what ruined lady Jessica in the film for me - the most egregious sin that was committed next to the loss of Thufir and exploration of mentats in general.
What we got in return, however, was an accessible film that made sense to a lot of people. In my wife's words, it made more sense to her than Star Wars. Take that as you will, but it impressed the hell out of me.
We've had two genius filmmakers tackle this beast and sort of succeed in their own ways, but no one has really been able to dig into the meat of Dune in my opinion. I'm starting to buy the old rhetoric that Dune is unfilmable, but what do I know - I'm no genius filmmaker.
I think it is easily filmable. Just as part of a series instead of a movie. It had opportunity to be the sci-fi version of Game of Thrones with multiple seasons for story and character development. Instead they tried to cram too much into a 2.5 hour first movie. The first book could have easily been its own 10 episode season or even break it up like the movie does but instead, into 16 episodes over 2 seasons. Then at least 1 season for each of the following books.
@@Miskatonic1927 Let's say you take a full season of television to adapt it - yeah, you get more content from the novel on the screen and show more of the intricacies. But I don't think it would be good necessarily. You would either need to slow every moment down to a crawl, which may not actually add anything, or add filler content to flesh things out. That second option is where I see the most potential. We could do more of what the book does, but in a way that's suitable for visual media. Though, Messiah doesn't really need a whole series, so maybe you could do them both in one.
An adaptation has to have some sort of purpose, and needs to take advantage of its medium. I don't think cramming more scenes from the book onto the screen is necessarily the answer to the adaptation problem. That wouldn't necessarily fix the problems with getting into these particular characters' heads. I think where this adaptation succeeds, at least, is in how they showed me things I'd never imagined before. Things like the heighliner design, or the bombs the Harkonnen used to breach shields and how the physics of that all interacted.
At best, my feelings are that this could have been a trilogy instead of 2 parts (which brings us up to 9 hours - pretty close to a modern season of television actually), but I don't think they were ever going to get 4 films. He had a shot to do Dune and Messiah with 3 films if the first one did well, and he took his shot. You really need to adapt Messiah if you're adapting Dune to wrap up Paul's story, and I'm glad that that's the plan.
As someone who’s never known anything about Dune I disagree with you, I don’t find this film “accessible” at all. It felt simultaneously like it threw everything it could at you but also nothing at the same time. It explained next to nothing either by showing or telling (though the scene of the fight to the death at the end was an exception as was Paul’s vision of Duncan’s death and how it was played out). The movie felt so empty but like it expected you to have grasped all that it was trying to fill you with at the same time. There were many names and places and important concepts that came and went but no actual expansion on them. As others who love Dune have mentioned they make no mention of Mentets but they’re very important to the series as I’m told. That seems like a big thing to leave out.
@@trexdrew I can agree with what you said in the sense that my wife didn't really get the sorts of details you're talking about. She's never read Dune, isn't into sci-fi - she really just lets me drag her to these things to humour me. But she understood what the story was about, and the broad strokes of what was going on from moment to moment. The film was coherent without nerd knowledge, which can't be said of a lot of these sorts of sci-fi productions that are adaptations or continuations of an IP. Us nerds can be in it for those details, but there's something I appreciate about other folks being able to enjoy something I love as well.
The new movie brought me to the novel after putting it off for many years. The last chapter I read was the dinner scene Matt described. When it was done I immediately thought, "I wish the new movie was a tv show like GoT or TWoT".
Exactly. It should have been a series. The first book could easily have been a 10 episode first season or even 16 episodes over 2 seasons before turning the other books into at least 1 season each.
Could have been the next Game of Thrones where we actually feel for the characters and get extensive plot and character development.
In my opinion Thufir Hawat was extremely well done in the first film. Bizarre that he's just completely eliminated from the story.
The dinner scene is precisely the first thing I mentioned to my friends when we left the theater. I'm so glad someone else brought it up, as it was a scene I really loved in the book and just knew it wouldn't appear in the film.
I agree with all of your points. The pacing especially! The SciFi mini series is still the best adaptation of Dune
Just watched This film with the family and felt the exact same way. Seems to be a trend, in my eyes, that filmmakers have forgotten how to make full length scenes, how to show us characters enough to care about them, and how to mix audio and direct speech so that even in dramatic moments you can hear what people are saying.
What a fair and even handed assessment, good on you Matt. The only thing I would say, and am curious about myself is this: from the behind the scenes/interviews we've seen, it looked like they filmed most of the book up to the fall of the city and simply cut parts out to make time. I'm wondering if the cut content is where the "heart" of the film is, and if an extended/director cut would be able to bring the heart to the screen.
If you have to cut out the heart, then you've already failed at the adaptation. I am getting kind of tired that movies have to be "saved" by including things that should have been in the release but were cut for other reasons. We were delivered a shambling corpse but it is suddenly okay when they resurrect it after the fact? At first it was quaint and served a purpose... now it feels like marketing execs have realized that they can get people to pay twice for something and so we're going to get artificially "cut" movies.
@@OpDDay2001 treating moviegoers just like gamers: we’ll fix it in the “Definitive Edition”
It really felt like it had been pared down to the quick - every shot feels like it could go on longer. It seems they were shaving even frames of its runtime. So there's a good chance entire sceneswere dropped, too.
As someone who lives in Bedford I grew up on Breaking Away. The idea of it being “obscure” is mind boggling to me!
Ah thanks, I was trying to find what he was talking about
I was genuinely starting to worry if something was wrong with me, Its such a relief that someone feel the same way I do. Thankyou Matt, i hope this more validation of your choice to make this episode.
One of my biggest gripes about the movie (in addition to the lack of regular people in any of the wide shots of the almost hex-square/Civ-like city of Arrakeen) was that it felt like all of the characters had also read the script, knew what the deal was on a meta level and they were just marching towards their destinies.
See the design of Arrakeen made complete sense to me. To me the Linch version of the city is like a massive version of the Lars Homestead. Everything important is covered or underground to protect it from desert storms and heat.
Regular people aren’t important in the Dune universe, certainly not to the nobles. I thought the portrayal of “fate that cannot be altered” was great - it’s one of the themes of Dune and Paul’s realisation that he has little control over his fate was expressed very well in the movie.
In the tent scene he rages against it, directing his anger at Jessica, and after the duel with Jamis he mourns it.
Can’t wait for him to make a video about Pt. 2
"... or maybe the Rush guy. I'm down with all that."
I mean, yes I noticed the shirts but I remember more for "that writer who talks about his style of running D&D in the same way Alton Brown talks about cooking".
Dune has had an important place in my heart for several years now. Frank Herbert's books remain some of the very few books I have returned to repeatedly over the years, with me being excited for this movie, and it has been the only time I went to the theatre in well over a year. I really enjoyed it greatly. I think Villeneuve did a really strong job adapting the book, and it was clear how much thought and passion went into crafting the film (I found him discussing the Gom Jabbar scene on the Vanity Fair TH-cam to be fascinating). I really liked the film. It was extremely cathartic to see scenes that meant so much to me depicted with respect and no shortage of craft. That said, I agree with every point you made. Hearing your thoughts has not decreased my enjoyment in any way, but you have given some fascinating insight on one of the core aspects of the series that make it so special to me. For that I thank you Matt.
You have also convinced me to see both Lawrence of Arabia and the David Lynch Dune movie.
"Moments stolen from money men." I love that line!!! I call it breathing into moments when I beta read and I'm craving some character development, a moment of pause. But novels are different than movies, but a moment, just a moment to breathe, I still find is important to really make the art sing longer in audience's minds.
I really do wish, they had the bravery to make this Dune version a very high budget show like GoT. That would hopefully have left room for breathing and keeping these important scenes in place because the story is clearly a political thriller that thrives on tension. Villeneuve did a great job in the first hour or so, as ever (like Sicario), building in the oppressive dread of taking over Dune and foreshadowing that it is a poisoned chalice. But I agree that we needed to live there, get lost in the local details, and get lulled into thinking the betrayal was more in the background. I feel like there's so much of the bones of structure from the early GoT seasons that they could have learned from and used. It's just a shame we won't get the chance to see it.
Exactly! They should have turned the first book into at least a 10 episode first season or even 16 episodes over 2 seasons. And then at least 1 season for each of the other books.
I would rather have more story and character development than big screen special effects.
@@Miskatonic1927 Yes. The material and framework is obviously there from the book. How the sandworms and ornithopters were realized, I would miss if not reproduced similarly. But I wonder what visuals would really have been compromised by the kind of budget a show would bring.
Been anxiously waiting for this since its release.
I loved the sound design. The music, the ambient ambient sound and the diegetic sound effects felt so rich, like I was immersed in sound.
I saw what actually happened with Jammis as Paul's vision being more metaphorical. In a way Jammis did show Paul how to be a friend, what the desert is about, it just played out differently.
It's kind of like how Chani stabbing him in his vision was representative of him receiving the night from her, a metaphor.
That said, he also watches his fight several times through his presence, so it isn't necessarily all metaphor.
I feel like matt would love the sequel
Giving Jamis that line in the vision - showing an alternate timeline of what could’ve been - hints at how a lot could’ve happened in that timeline. Maybe Paul told him about that mentat rule and later on when teaching Paul about the desert, Jamis repeated it back to him since it was applicable to the situation.
That or Paul was tripping hard enough on the spice in the air at the time that his precognitive abilities mixed with his memories and pulled the line from his memory while guiding Paul towards Jamis.
I love how I can disagree with Matt on some points while still respecting his reasoning and feelings on these points. This man ís articulate. So beautifully representative that he picked the dinner scene. Thanks for the review Matt!
Yes yes yes part 3 of Matt's Dune videos!
Thanks for sharing!
For me, my Dune movie is the SyFy mini series. Obviously not a big budget masterpiece, but it had some wonderful acting and was able to cover the events of the book with good pacing
"i liked it, i didn't like it, i was bored, was entertained..." petition for matt to make videos on loads of movies that are just these one lines.
I felt like the depiction of Jessica in this movie was meant to emphasize her perspective as Paul's mother. Everything about her seemed to be steeped with her regret and dread for his fate, except for the scenes that weren't about Paul, like the Shadout Mapes scene. I did enjoy one change with Jessica. They didn't have a subplot where Leto had to pretend he suspected her of being a traitor, and he actually tells her directly that he should have married her. Though this is also because there was almost no time spent on Arrakis at all. Incidentally, everyone I've talked to said they wouldn't have minded if the movie was longer, or at least that it never felt long.
@matthew colville. Because of you I went out to the final showing of DUNE 40th anniversary on Tuesday. Revisiting your DUNE videos today to be reminded of how I became a fan in the first place. Thanks Matt!
Dune 2021 was my first experience of the IP, I watched it a couple of times, enjoyed it.
I then read Dune and following that watched the Lynch version, extended and fan edit variants.
I would have loved to see more of the book in the 2021 film, the greenhouse, the banquet, confirmation of Paul's mentat training.
You know, it is interesting. Most people I hear talking about the visions in the new movie seem to agree on the idea that they are full of visions which are from alternate timelines, futures which no longer exist. After hearing that argument, I can kind of agree, but I haven't heard many people talking about what I thought: that the visions are mostly metaphor. That Jamis is teaching him because Jamis's death leads to his acceptance in the sietch. That we see chani stab him, and jamis kill him, because paul 'dies' with killing Jamis, and they both played their parts in that event.
The banquet scene is so important in the book, not just because of how you see Paul step into leadership, which is important to establish before he goes into the desert, but also because it gives you a better understanding of the subsidiary cultural and political landscape of the empire. The scene in the movie that ALMOST does that is when the herald of the change comes to Caladan, but you don’t see the factions outside of the trappings of ceremony. You don’t see the people under the allegiances, the individuals who break the rules and make the choices that change the entire society.
My 2 best friends and I saw dune together. I had read the book for the within a year, one of them had read the book a few years ago, and the other had read the first 2/3rds of the book the day before we went to the movie. I remember that friend texting me the day before we went to the theatre as he was reading the book “holy shit, the dinner scene is amazing.” I wish there had been more scenes like that in the movie.
Another noteworthy thing is that the guy who had read dune least recently enjoyed the movie the most out of the three of us. Idk what that says about the film per se, but I thought it was worth noting.
My interpretation of the Jamis visions, was that they were metaphorical. That Jamis, by dying at the hand of Paul, was solidifying Paul's entry into Fremen society. He taught Paul the ways of the desert through his death. Many of the other visions foreshadow this as well, with the repeated emphasis on the knife, and the significance of taking a life.
I'm glad I wasn't the only old school Dune person who felt this way about the movie. It was just SO long and at times felt emotionally flat. I just wanted it to be something different than it was. And I could hardly hear the dialogue over the WAY too loud soundtrack. That I can't remember a single bar of now.
All the best Matt.
I would love to see MCDM play either the old or new Dune TTRPG!
The best thing about the film for me is that it means more people will read the book.
my first thought when i saw the scene with the visions was, they came true in a totally unexpected way... with a smile he said "ill teach you the ways of the desert", in reality the guy was an ass and tried to kill him, but unintentionally teaching paul how to kill did teach him the ways of the desert... dreams sometimes work like this in real life, and leto the 2nd mentions this in book 4, that visions of the future are like bubbles falling into a stream, you see a glimps but then its up to fate or nature
The movie got right what was most impactful for me from the book: the inexorable weight of prescience, the collapse (of the illusion) of free will and Herbert's core theme about the usurpation of a prophet on any society.
part of the thing I like about the vision of Jamis is that he *did* teach Paul the ways of the Fremen. It's oracular vagueness *and* an alternative future.
6:20 "I SHOULD HAVE BEEN his friend."
He saw that future that didn't happen and it not happening was tragic.
I forgive a lot of the cuts made to the movie (even though the banquet was my favorite part of the book) because I felt as though Villeneuve wanted to have them in there, but was forced to cut them by the studio. He has said himself something to the effect of, "Every movie is a series of successes and failures. I feel like there are some parts of the movie that did not live up to my expectations" and then I believe he goes on to talk about the Gom Jabbar scene.
I absolutely loved the new Dune, because I felt there was a lot of heart. To me, it felt like a love letter to Frank Herbert, and I got the impression that everyone was trying their level best to do a great job. Having said that, I don't begrudge you any of these points you made because I feel they're entirely subjective.
Frank Herbert reads that dinner scene on tape. So good. Really cool to hear the author read his own work, and that's one of the chapters he chose.
Happy to hear your thoughts on the movie, since I read Dune after hearing you talk about it.
The Atreides ruled Arrakis for a very short time. Gurney arrives with the last of the Atreides warriors and is sent to convince the smugglers to stay before the Heighliner has left - this is already after Paul’s encounter with the hunter-seeker. The same day, Paul’s first staff meeting occurs and he already realises things are going poorly for the Atreides. Maybe a day or two later they meet Kynes and go out into the desert to see spice harvesting. About a week later is the dinner party; Leto tells Paul about pretending to suspect Jessica, and on the night of the dinner she thinks how cold the Duke has been for a week or so. Then, two days later, the Harkonnen spring their trap.
Jamis had already taught Paul everything he ever needed to know, that reality never happened, but Paul still remembered.
The question why animated characters in many RPGs gesticulate wildly while speaking has been on my mind for a while. This makes sense now.
My main quibble really would be that Paul and Jamis fought in their stillsuits; nobody going to puncture a stillsuit.
need to hear your dune 2 thoughts
11:44 - some of the most memorable moments of the original animated Ghost in the Shell for me have been the long, uneventful, mostly static city shots set to that meditative, very specific music. This "downtime" brought focus onto the environment (or a sole character) and let viewers pause and think and process and feel, before moving on to the next stage of the story. So many... products nowadays have absolutely no time for that - they're an unending, unstoppable rollercoaster ride... except no one seems to understand that when there's no lows, you'll never get to feel what's actually exciting about a high.
Having read the books I found it hard to judge the film, so I asked a friend of mine what they thought of it. They said "Yeah I liked it, it was a pretty good movie, but kind of predictable. It is obvious that the Duke is going to die." And then I realized the disconnect between the movie and the book.
It’s obvious in the book too… I’m not sure which disconnect you’re talking about. Could you elaborate?
I'm so glad you made this! I really loved seeing Dune (2021), but there was definitely something off that I couldn't put my finger on. The pacing! You're on point. I did notice the absence of the dinner party as well, which surprised me as it's one of my favorite moments in the book.
It's fascinating to me that you brought up that particular scene from the book. It's been a few decades since I last read the book, but that is one moment I still think about.
Lynch’s Dune left an indelible mark on me as a kid. This is a great video Matt.
I watched some of your stream that was on this channel and I really enjoyed your take on movie reviews and reviewers. I felt it when you called out people who watch/read reviews to see if a person they respect's opinion aligns with their own; and solely for that reason. I thought your analysis of the movie and your criticisms do add to my understanding and appreciation of it. So thanks, I guess.
I love the Dinner in the book. It shows so much. So much happens without happening.
Damn! Matt put all my thoughts into something actually coherent. For weeks my friends kept asking why I didn't love Dune 2021, now I can say watch this guy spell it out for you. Well Done, Sir. Well Done.
I’ve not read the book, but this film had one of the strangest senses of pace to me of anything I’ve ever seen. Like there was no rising action; events logically bore consequence to what followed, but everything was so detached that it seemed as though I were a distant observer of predestined events.
Based off what I understand about where the books end up, I might be a worm god-man.
I think the proper title you're looking for is God Emperor XD
This is not the fault of the movie; the book itself is paced in a weird way, too. It's dialogue-heavy, with the first half of it being being basically introduction to characters. No action, just slowly unraveling a tapestry of politics and internal conflicts. Obviously, this is part of why Dune is a spectacular piece of writing and a great book.
I keep putting off seeing this movie as the all the previews, both clips and stills, clashed with my vision of what Arrakis should look like and more over that the characters deviated from what I envisioned when I read the book. Jason Mamoa is the only character that appeared within the realm of what I envisioned while reading. I will have to sit with my father and maybe go watch it with him. My father is the biggest Dune fan I know and once God Emperor of Dune was released I started gifting him the novels (as an aside the Dune novels were interspersed with the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant) and watched the David Lynch film with him when it came out.
At least I don't have to worry about disliking something that my cousin worked on the effects for, as he worked on Terminator: Dark Fate and the Black Widow movie while this was in production.
I love videos like this. It encourages discourse!
Thanks for taking the time.
I loved breaking away, a local TV station seemed to show it monthly when I was a kid in 83-84 and watched it every time.
In a way, Jamis *did* teach Paul what it is to be a Fremen in the book. His recognizing that even made him a "friend of Jamis".
My favorite version of the Dune movie is the "Spicediver Edit," which you probably already know about. If you don't, it's a 3 hour fan-edit that splices together all the different cuts of the Lynch movie, along with deleted scenes, into a coherent story line. You can probably still find it on youtube.
I don't know the California desert, but I have been in the desert in Kuwait.
Kuwait's desert is, as I like to describe it, southern Saskatchewan without the interesting landscape. It's not only flat, there isn't even grass. It's just flat dull grey brown dust as far as you can see, in some of the places. You can see for miles. It's next to the Gulf, which means in the early morning with the sun rising over it, looking east you're absolutely blinded by the reflection of the light off the waves. But it's like the brilliance of glass shards, not diamonds. Bright and sharp colours, but harsh more than beautiful.
The heat in summer there is immense. I would tell people that you knew it was summer in Kuwait when the temperature never dipped below 40C (about 105F) in the daytime. At night it might cool somewhat below, but noonday...
The duststorms turn the sun to a dim brown lightbulb. They coat everything in layers of grit. Housecleaning is a nightmare because there isn't great sealant on windows and doors, and it all gets through. When the wind is bad, a dust storm can almost literally do mild sandblasting of cars and buildings.
But ultimately, because of my experiences there, there's one thing that I would always want a movie to communicate about a desert.
The silence.
When you're out in that desert away from people, engines off, no traffic nearby, no constant sound of civilization? The silence is so loud it hurts your ears. You're straining for anything, any sound to come by at all. Everything sounds too loud. You're almost afraid to speak loudly into it, like it'll break something. There's a reason religious people fled to the desert to get away from the evils of cities; the desert fathers of Christianity, for one. There's a solitude there like nowhere else. During the day there's little other life to be seen, and the sun is not a giver of life, but a destroyer. There, you gain a new appreciation for rain, life in liquid form that causes dormant seeds of grasses and flowers to bloom overnight in colors too bright and brilliant to be believed, only to be withered, faded, or desiccated three days later. It's as though because their lives are so short therefore the colors they display are more vibrant, all the more beautiful for their transience.
That's what I want to see portrayed.
They would have had time for the banquet scene if they trimmed back the 17 minutes or so of Paul having visions of Chani looking over her shoulder at him. But those shots were probably contractually necessary to get Zendaya onboard as a credited co-star.
Two things I reeeeeallly liked about D2021: 1) The scene where Paul and Jessica are in the tent in the desert: Timothee really nailed the visions of Paul becoming the god and unleashing the jihad 2) The duel at the end of the movie, when Chani is convinced that Jamis is the better warrior and Paul will die. The grittiness and scope really made me feel the gravitas of the scene.
If the animators need something to animate while people talk they should watch you. The eyebrow movements at 13:28 gave me a spit take. I see why the mentats are your favorite. Love your commitment, this was spot on.
Wait a minute... Where are all your Rush videos?
Just watch Lawrence of Arabia for the first time. Thank you, Matt! I was blown away. My Dad and I watched it together and we both thought, "They don't make movies like this anymore."
Would you sometime talk about what you think happened to modern Hollywood? It seems like so few movies can commit to a slow story that really makes you think.
As an artist I love seeking critiques from my peers because they have good ideas that they give to you. So I’m not surprised frank Herbert did the same thing. It’s how good artist operate.
I really appreciate your "I didn't love it, but it was wonderful" explanation
"I don't think a movie should just be a book, filmed." This was my reaction to hunger games 1. It was basically a scene for scene perfect adaptation and I came away going "well I'd already seen all that in my head." No one making the hunger games imagined anything better than I did and they are professional imaginations.
Production: "OK, for Duncan Idaho we need someone to just be fucking rad as hell. Call Momoa."
Okay Matt... Now i want full audiobook Dune read by you! I know you don't have time, sorry. But gosh, you did a great job reading that part. I lived it.
Jamis teaching paul was a metaphor for Jamis being the first person Paul killed, and teaching him very fundamentally about the reality of life and death with the Fremen. I think less it was the movie telling us that his visions can be *wrong* and more the movie telling us that his visions are more prophecy-like, and more metaphorical than his prescience is in the books. I think it's a change in how Paul's powers work rather than an example of how his powers work. I think this also explains why Jamis would be speaking knowledge that he doesn't actually have in the vision, because the vision is a synthesis of Paul seeing the future and things that he already knows.
My own thought was that this movie is very focused on efficiently conveying the plot. The way they chose to incorporate some humanity into that plot was by hiring charismatic actors. Jason Mamoa is really just the most striking example - all these actors have the ability to convey serious plot dialogue while still seeming like nice people. That's pretty hard to do.
Thank you for inspiring me to read the books! New fav series!!!
That's the thing that caught my mind to this movie as well. That they called him 'his friend' well before he met him. And Paul was seeing alternate futures where Jamis was his mentor.
When Paul had to kill his friend he sealed off that alternate future. His friend guided him even with his own death. It made me think. Yeah they didn't use the Mentats enough either.
Thanks for sharing! I enjoyed it plenty, but I've merely osmosed a bunch of Dune's story and setting through your videos and through friends. I do really wish the dinner scene were there. When I first heard about it I was sad to hear it was removed.
Agree 100%. Also, completely agree on Rush, D&D, and Dune. From age 16 to 22 they influenced me heavily (and still do).
Sad but true. The love and loyalty of the family needed priority.
Ahahaha! I love King Crimson's "Trio." Bruford is an incredible drummer, even when he doesn't play.
11:00 "Much style, not much substance." This pretty much sums up Denis Villeneuve's entire career.