My grandfather who served in the Second World War recalled to me once that he was on occupation duty in Germany when the Japanese Surrendered, his accomodations, along with the housing for thousands of other soldiers was near a large lake, he couldnt recall the name of the lake, but according to him; when they received word that the whole affair had ended they threw a party that lasted for days, and over this lake, sometimes right down to mere feet above the water, every concievable allied fighter plane did low passes, loops, rolls, wing wags etc all day long. "it was the biggest airshow i had ever seen in my life or would ever see again... they really tore the sky up that day". I would have loved seeing that
If this operation have been activated. I couldn’t imagine what those paratroopers gonna have to endure at the airfield while waiting for Montgomery’s forces to arrive
Possibly not too much; most of the German army would've been so glad to see them before the Soviets would assault as they felt better being captured by the West rather than enslaved or shot by the East. Theodor Busse of 9th Army wrote “We will consider our task fulfilled if American tanks strike us in our back.”
This is unbelievable. The only possible response at the time would have been, "If Monty can get to Berlin in 3 days, let him, then we won't need an airdrop." In reality it took him 3 months to reach the Elbe.
Yes a mad rush up the road to the target, 3 days to get to Berlin. After all the armor forces had no trouble getting to Arnhem in three days to relieve the paratroopers at the bridge head. 🤬 It was like the planners for Eclipse Two had learned nothing from Market Garden.
There were logistics problems all the way and the broad front startegy had the 21st army group among other armies stretched thin. Had the Antwerp harbor been operational in early October. Both Patton and Monty could have crossed into Germany before the end of 1944
I don't know why such a consistently high quality and successful commander would be considered ending it all. Things sometimes go wrong in war and nobody on either side had a "perfect war", but Montgomery was clearly one of the best army group commanders of WW2. To suggest otherwise is just falling for political nonsense by certain people who had just as large egos.
I first heard about this Operation while dining some research for the race to Berlin. It caught my attention because I had never heard of such a plan and could find very few resources about it. Thank you for putting the time and effort into researching this. Would have been interesting to see the outcome of this operation was approved but it probably would have been very bloody for all those involved.
too high, the price of failure would’ve been devastating, the only hope would’ve been if they could’ve captured the government quarter and some important leaders, but i think the allies would’ve had a very tough time.
I'm no historian but I have been interested in military history all my life. And I love it when I hear about something new. Eclipse II sounds bonkers. Thanks.
@@DakotaofRaptors I expect the Soviet influence would have been much greater in the East, because if Japan didn't surrender the Soviets would have had cause to move armies into China; possibly even turning Mao's communists into a puppet regime rather than the fair-weather allies they were IRL.
These are the same men who though dropping a single Regiment of Paras on Rome was a good idea (And no - Nothing to do with Montgomery; the geniuses were Marshall, Arnold and Ike)
Why didn't they just save printer's ink and call it Market Garden Pt 2 Side note: Anyone else think that the actor who played the Dutch Capt Arie in A Bridge Too Far really resembles his character. Good casting. 10:30
Overall they did a great job casting that movie. The Dutch lady who owned the house that got used for all the wounded (I forget her name) looks like a damn clone of the real one.
The paratroopers of the Allied forces had nothing left to prove in Europe by 1945. They had done brilliant heroic work in Normandy, Holland, and in the forests of the Ardennes! Have never been a fan of the decisions made at Yalta, but if it helped put a cork in Eclipse Two, then good one.
They did it! However there was little opposition because Japan had stopped fighting. But the occupation for Japan was Operation Downfall. They just didn't suffer horrendous casualties like they had planned.
I can actually see Operation Olympic (its actual name) having a considerable chance of succeeding if it wasn't for the several months long Okinawa campaign.
07:25 - the White Rose were student / conscript soldier radicals. This photo shows Sophie & Hans Scholl with Christopher Probst. These three were all arrested and executed in February 1943 after conducting a high-profile anti-nazi leafleting campaign from Münich University. This was the style of the White Rose, to agitate the German population to resist the Nazis. They were not involved in assisting the Allied invasion as a group & especially these individuals, whose only connection to Allies is their texts were reprinted and air-dropped on Germany after their deaths.
From 16th April to 2nd May the Red Army lost 82,000 men plus 280.000 wounded during the battle for Berlin. The were supported by heavy equipment and the russian Air Force. At that time the remains of the german forces were concentrated in and around the capital. An airborne attack without heavy equipment like tanks, artillery and ground attack aircraft would have been very costly for the men, just to donate it to the Russians later.
I do wonder if there'd be more surrenders if the western allies did drop, of course it'd be a bloodbath but I know Germans both civilian and military went west to escape russian retributions, perhaps once they heat its the Americans or Commonwealth forces attacking they might see it as a way out? Then again if you're defending Berlin at the end of the war you're probably very fanatical so maybe not.
@@F.R.E.D.D2986Thats just BS, and Soviet guns and planes were not used incompetently, but not impressive either. Other than that its easily explained by Zhukov and Konev telling their Fronts to "Rush B" to get to the Reichstag and Elbe first.
@@TheIntelReport Hehe, understandable. Even a Dutch person (like myself) had to have a take or two to get it right. Not that it is difficult, just very unusual.
And yet I see the comments of “The Germans would have welcomed them.” Not with Hitler still at the helms. By that stage in the war, he may have been out of his mind, but so long as he was alive, he had the authority to order the Wehrmacht Commanders to attack. No doubt an airborne drop on Berlin would have been a PR Coup for the Nazi’s especially if they could surround and destroy the areas where the paratroopers were intended to land. Luckily this was just a plan and it was never executed. It may have looked good on paper, but when a plan is put into action, nothing ever goes according to it.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD Haha. I wasn't talking about Market Garden. Monty wasn't the problem with that operation...it was several factors..mostly the single road. Also, the unfortunate placement of Bittrich's Panzers in Arnhem for rest.
Often overlooked, hats off to the German resistance members. Also, thank God this operation never occurred. With how hard Market Garden shit the bed, it's terrifying to thing of how awful this could have been.
General De Guingand: _‘It is interesting to consider how far we failed in this operation. It should be remembered that the Arnhem bridgehead was only a part of the whole. We had gained a great deal in spite of this local set-back. The Nijmegen bridge was ours, and it proved of immense value later on. And the brilliant advance by XXX Corps led the way to the liberation of a large part of Holland, not to speak of providing a stepping stone to the successful battles of the Rhineland.’_ And the Germans. MONTY The Field-Marshal1944-1976, NIGEL HAMILTON, Page 98 _‘General Student, in a statement after the war, considered the ‘Market Garden’ operation to have ‘proved a great success. At one stroke it brought the British 2nd Army into the possession of vital bridges and valuable territory. The conquest of the Nijmegen area meant that the creation of a good jumping board for the offensive which contributed to the end of war.’ Student was expressing the professional admiration of an airborne commander - ‘those who had planned and inaugurated with complete the first airborne operations of military history, had not now even thought of such a possible action by the enemy…the Allied Airborne action completely surprised us._ *_The operation hit my army nearly in the centre and split it into two parts…_* _in spite of all precautions, all bridges fell intact into the hands of the Allied airborne forces - another proof of the paralysing effect of surprise by airborne forces!’_
I had never heard of this possible operation before, so this surprised me. Outside the border agreements the different Allied powers had made for splitting up Germany, there's another big reason why Eclipse II shouldn't have been made. Japan. While Germany was on its very last legs in spring 1945, Japan, though losing badly and suffering heavy casualties, they showed no signs of giving up at this time. Operation Downfall, the invasion of the Japanese home islands was going to start planning. The 11th Airborne Division had already been fighting in the Pacific and was slated for Downfall. I mention this because the plan was to bring a number of troops that were done in Europe and prepare them for the assault on the home islands. This was going to be a big fight and casualties were expected to be heavy. With victory in Europe secured, that's more men freed up for war in the Pacific. Do remember that the Battle of Okinawa was still being fought with heavy casualties when Germany surrendered in May 1945.
Clearly the planners learned nothing from Market Garden. Allied intelligence completely missed teh SS Panzer army that interrupted Market garden and missed teh Ardennes Offensive, Lastly, Monty was consistently overestimating his timelines. Thank God that this never occurred,
you lot are amazing. You consistently accuse Montgomery of being too slow, too cautious, and yet then go on to say that he overestimate his timeliness. As for Market Garden and missing the SS Panzer Divisions, you are completely wrong. They knew what was there and in what strength and it was correctly deemed to not be a reason to abandon the aims. In fact, neither 9th SS Panzer or 10th SS Panzer had any tanks between them. Yes, some SPGs and a handful of flakwagons, some armoured cars and plenty of half-tracks but no tanks of their own. The ONLY tanks in the area were those of the local school of armour, all obsolete, and those of PK244, even more obsolete French B2s captured in 1940.
Perhaps Operation Eclipse II would have a greater chance of success if it was delayed until after the Western Allies had reached and crossed the Elbe River. Bradley's and Montgomery's armies would be much closer to Berlin to support the paratroopers who would not have to wait long for reinforcements.
I find it really interesting how Stalin referred to the United States and United Kingdom as a seemingly separate entity than the Soviet Union when discussing plans with his staff toward the end of the war. “Find out what the ‘allies’ plans are for Berlin.” A bone chilling foreshadowing of the Cold War.
Doesn't seem that odd to me. The Western allies were equally suspicious of the Soviets, the only difference being that they were one, not several governments.
@@2Links True. Also notable is the fact that the soviets invested heavily in human resources to spy on both the UK and US; Stalin knew we had the bomb before the Potsdam conference and he knew we only had material to deliver two to Japan - how do you think the Japanese knew they didn't have to worry about us bombing them off the face of the planet? Stalin told them; that's whey they didn't surrender until Russia attacked their Chinese holding overland.
As far back as the 1920 Communist International (COMINTERN) Meeting in Baku, Soviet Azerbajan, Vladimir Lenin told his Communist Comrades: "The Road to Paris lies through Peking. . ." That's when they called "Beijing" "PEKING". Lenin put forward a General Plan for World Communist Conquest: FIRST, the Communists would conquer Asia, Africa and Latin America, which they considered the "Rural" areas of the World. SECOND, the Communists would conquer Western Europe and North America, which they considered to be the "Urban" areas of the World. (source: "You can Trust The Communists", by Dr. Fred Shwarz, MD., the Founder of The Christian Anti-Communist Crusade.
How have they not learned from Market Garden? Airborne tasked to hold positions for days, while ground forces move an exaggerated distance in a minimum of days, and also underestimating the defense of Berlin. It’s berlin, no general would let it fal.
I probably shouldn't nitpick pronounciation, but every time you said Reichsbanner I heard Reichsbahner, imagining how the Reich's railway employees were secretly plotting against the regime lol
I don't think the British, Canadian and Polish paras had anything to prove. My Dad was joined the Paras towards the end of WW2, he always thought they were being trained for Japan, maybe this was it. He died a couple of years ago aged 92, was very proud of his association with the Parachute Regiment although he never forgave Monty for Arnhem. He ended up in Palestine after the war, didn't enjoy it.
The old generation who fought in WW2 always aged well in their time. The veterans always make it to 90-100 year old age. Really show how physical training can have good effect on human body. Thanks your dad for service
One more major complication to this plan were the Soviets themselves. Stalin was *VERY* keen on taking Berlin first before the Allies got there, and so i do believe had some paratroopers landed in Berlin they possibly could've been shot at by furious Soviet troops, and Stalin would've been equally furious at the Allied powers and demanded the paratroopers be immediately withdrawn.
I guess in this situation Stalin would have to be a bit more Casualty sensitive. The red army lost 1 million men dead in 1945 and 100,000 in Berlin alone. Maybe in another timeline Stalin cares more about the demographic future of the Soviet Union, so he decides to let the allies especially America bleed a little.
@@joeywheelerii9136 : In the book "Why the Allies Won", by British Historian Sir Richard Overy, he said the Red Army lost about 200,000 Dead, in Berlin alone. Other sources go as high as 300,000 Soviet War Dead in just taking Berlin. In early 1945, Ike had estimated that if the Americans or Western Allies had captured Berlin, then we would lose "only" 100,000 Dead. Assuming they were all Americans, our total maximum War Dead would have increased from 420,000 (in all theaters) to 520,000, an increase of almost 24%. Ike did not think Americans would have accepted that. And then there was the question "What was the point of that?", considering that Berlin was to be in the Soviet Zone of Occupation. That was set at the Level of "FDR-Churchill-Stalin" and above Ike's Pay Grade. OTOH, even if the higher estimate of 300,000 Soviet Deaths, in taking Berlin, is accepted, that 300,000 increased the total Soviet War Dead from 26,700,000 to 27,000,000, what it was at War's End, or by "only" 1.12%. It is relevant to consider a famous (or infamous) quote: "When one person dies, it is a Tragedy, when a million people die, it is a Statistic." ----- Joseph Stalin
I'd like to see that too. My dad's 83rd ID was across the Elbe, and uniformly the brass wanted to keep going to Berlin. At the level below, say, Major, everybody was happy to stop 30 or so miles away with an autobahn. The fighting to establish the bridgehead at Barby was not genteel.
my great uncle was in the 4th Ukrainian front in Berlin in 1945 . It would have been chaos when he is fighting the Germans he looks and sees America paratroopers raining lol.
3 months and 3rd Army would have been their failed attempt ot take Metz causing 50k in Casualties- Funny how all the Patton Fan Boys are quiet on that. What makes it worse that hte flamboyant Armor Genius was ordered to by pass it but instead decided he wanted the glory of being the first general in 1000 yrs to take it. The Old, Infirm Stomach and Ulcer troops and Cadets holding it gave him a bloody nose and after three months he quitly haded his mess over to others to clean up
This feels an awful lot like Monty trying to prove Market Garden could've worked by going double or nothing... no, triple or nothing. Also, now I kinda wanna see someone do a what-if scenario on a total allied invasion of Japan proper, the various paratrooper units taking part, as well. It'd be so easy to set up, too, you just have a meeting at the beginning where Truman refuses to use the bombs
@@bloodybones63 no, they would have. Go and look up the ridiculous estimated death toll for an invasion of Japan. Compared to that, 20,000 Japanese civilians is fucking peanuts, compared to the estimated 5 million civilian Japanese casualties and 1 million allied casualties
The Soviets wanted Berlin for themselves. It could have caused a competition situation where the Soviets fire on the Allies to ensure they take the city.
This idea sounds like pure suicide: the difference between paratroopers and regular infantry is that paratroopers have lighter gear loads and less heavy equipment to allow for rapid "shock-and-awe" assaults behind the enemy front lines, with the hope that they can achieve their objectives quickly and hold out until the main forces on the frontlines can advance forward to relieve them. At most, you'd probably get a few minutes of surprise, a few hours before the enemy can figure out the relative position and strength of the paratroopers, and a few days before they can redirect other more-heavily-armed units to go after the paratroopers. If the allied frontlines can't advance all the way to the paratroopers' location in that time, all the paratroopers are likely to be overrun by the enemy and either killed or captured. And that isn't even mentioning the sheer scale of transport aircraft needed to bring enough paratroopers to capture an entire city far into enemy territory, or the relative lack of air support all along the frontlines during the buildup to the operation when all the planes are being prepared for this massive undertaking. Don't get me started on the scale of the airlift that would be needed just to resupply the paratroopers...
very interesting plan, hadn't heard of this before. 1 question though, why refer to 'The German resistance'? As far as I've been given to understand, while there were individuals and small groups that were dissatisfied with Nazi rule or some of their policies, expressed sometimes by small groups through helping people hide from the holocaust or circulating pamphlets, and the circles of the military elite hatched a few assassination / coup plots, there never was a real, organized or united resistance movement within Germany, and they certainly did not manage to get the active support of the general population. Referencing to those small groups, though very courageous, as 'The German Resistance' feels dishonest and also unfair to the resistance movement like in Austria (which was the one providing the western Allies intel on manufacturing of the V2 among others), let alone the real resistance movements in places like Norway, Netherlands, France, let alone Greece, Yugoslavia, Poland, Ukraine Belarus and the rest of USSR. Hell, the Yugoslav Partisans liberated their own country before any allied ground forces reached their territory, the Polish had a fully functional Underground State, and the populations of Belarus, Ukraine, and the rest of the USSR suffered tremendously for nazi reprisals against the civilian population for the actions of resistance fighters. Using the term 'The' for German resistance makes for an unfair comparison to those countries and what little resistance there was in Germany, in my opinion.
Luckily Eisenhower and Bradley were in charge rather than Montgomery and Patton. One hundred thousand casualties for an objective that had already been promised to the Soviets would have been a terrible cost for nothing more than prestige. The only reason to undertake this operation would have been to renege on what Roosevelt promised Stalin at Yalta and keep the this territory after the war. Letting the Soviets expend more of their own lives on territory they planned to oppress after the was the right decision.
I always wondered what if market gardens resources were directed at attacking Berlin instead, with a sea landing at Wilhelmshaven instead of Normandy, with obsolete battleships beached to give direct cover and support of troops against shore defenses, its the biggest port and nowhere near where they would expect. So, imagine if no market garden and add those troops to d-days total dropped troops, new weapons and germany doesn't have the fuel or armed men, which most of which are near french coast or way the heck off dying in the east. I'd at least like to see a movie that what ifd D-day at Normandy had the old battleships beached with the troops, maybe even modified and filled with them, bristling with guns of all calibers at each beachhead instead of off shore.
After WW2 the Americans appear to have had a strategy to change history to put themselves in better light. They all sing out of the the same hymn sheet. US corps commander Joe Collins was used to great effect by Monty, he called him Lightening Joe. He engaged in dynamic warfare with Monty. Yet in the World at War series made in the 70s, he said Monty was only good at set piece battles, the same old line they all come out with - read from a crib sheet written by someone high no doubt. Which was tripe of course. Monty wasn't a dynamic commander? He engaged in bypassing, isolating warfare in North Africa. Monty's ability to wage a dynamic battle was clear for all to see. In North Africa one commander routinely outstripped his supplies driving his troops to exhaustion, often squandering any positive gains that he had made and leaving himself open to counterattack. That commander was Rommel. Strangely a commander many regard as a brilliant general. Then we have one that joined later in North Africa that took his time to build his forces, stock supplies and increased the level of inter-service cooperation. He absorbed an attack in his first encounter with Rommel, that he had correctly anticipated and planned for. He then launched an effective counterattack that kicked off the drive that ended in victory, chasing Rommel 1,500 miles all the while adjusting his strategy on the fly to maximum effectiveness. That commander was Montgomery.
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Nah, I'd rather not be marked as a threat to national security.
Are you comfortable to be sponsored by a Russian company at such times?
@@krokua it's hungarian, not russian.
@@giubgiubbi3409 Gaijin was founded in Russia and most of the game was developed there too. They moved the HQ
@@krokua Yeah so does that make them russian still??
My grandfather who served in the Second World War recalled to me once that he was on occupation duty in Germany when the Japanese Surrendered, his accomodations, along with the housing for thousands of other soldiers was near a large lake, he couldnt recall the name of the lake, but according to him; when they received word that the whole affair had ended they threw a party that lasted for days, and over this lake, sometimes right down to mere feet above the water, every concievable allied fighter plane did low passes, loops, rolls, wing wags etc all day long. "it was the biggest airshow i had ever seen in my life or would ever see again... they really tore the sky up that day". I would have loved seeing that
Love that
It's too bad we defeated the wrong enemy. Communists are taking over the west. Look at how rotten and degenerate our people have become.
Allied planners were HOI players. Just paratroop the enemy capital for victory.
If this operation have been activated. I couldn’t imagine what those paratroopers gonna have to endure at the airfield while waiting for Montgomery’s forces to arrive
Gavin: "What airfield? I heard there's 1,000 panzers in Seelow Heights, we need to defend our landing zone."
Possibly not too much; most of the German army would've been so glad to see them before the Soviets would assault as they felt better being captured by the West rather than enslaved or shot by the East. Theodor Busse of 9th Army wrote “We will consider our task fulfilled if American tanks strike us in our back.”
Market garden 2: electric bungaloo
VDV: Where reinforcements?
I tried Google translate, but it couldn't translate this bullshit, please try again
This is unbelievable. The only possible response at the time would have been, "If Monty can get to Berlin in 3 days, let him, then we won't need an airdrop." In reality it took him 3 months to reach the Elbe.
Why would anybody trust Monty's schedule and planning after Market Garden?
Yes a mad rush up the road to the target, 3 days to get to Berlin. After all the armor forces had no trouble getting to Arnhem in three days to relieve the paratroopers at the bridge head. 🤬 It was like the planners for Eclipse Two had learned nothing from Market Garden.
@@ricardokowalski1579 add on him being a Brit and it’s amazing anyone even let him speak
There were logistics problems all the way and the broad front startegy had the 21st army group among other armies stretched thin. Had the Antwerp harbor been operational in early October. Both Patton and Monty could have crossed into Germany before the end of 1944
@@ricardokowalski1579 Ask Eisenhower he approved that plan lmaoo
Have they considered Steiner’s vaunted counterattack?
They’re hoi4 players, they don’t care about casualties as long as they get vp’s lol
Not to worry, Hitler wont allow any counterattack until he has heard from Fegelein
Mein Fuhrer, Steiner...
Where is Wenk? Where is Steiner?
Paradrops, an armoured rush to get there in time. What's not to like...?
Monty
@@markgarrett3647 the clear and only real choice of ground commander for such an operation in Europe if it was actually carried out
@@TheIntelReport That's like having only one choice of substance if you really want to end it all as painlessly as possible.
I don't know why such a consistently high quality and successful commander would be considered ending it all. Things sometimes go wrong in war and nobody on either side had a "perfect war", but Montgomery was clearly one of the best army group commanders of WW2. To suggest otherwise is just falling for political nonsense by certain people who had just as large egos.
Varsity required 2,600 Transport, Bomber, Fighter, and Glider aircraft. There were a total of 16,000 paratroopers. This is just insane.
I first heard about this Operation while dining some research for the race to Berlin. It caught my attention because I had never heard of such a plan and could find very few resources about it. Thank you for putting the time and effort into researching this. Would have been interesting to see the outcome of this operation was approved but it probably would have been very bloody for all those involved.
Would love to see a super computer run a few thousand scenarios to get a few answers.
Someone should make Eclipse II into a top-tier alternative history movie.
Medal of honor airborne has a mission where you assault a flak tower in Berlin I believe
But we don't even get good real-history movies
More like Market Garden 2... but with more enemies and anti-air.
Outstanding work. Definitely seems like that would have been a high risk operation.
too high, the price of failure would’ve been devastating, the only hope would’ve been if they could’ve captured the government quarter and some important leaders, but i think the allies would’ve had a very tough time.
10:17 it's as if an officer in the VDV looked at this operation, changed Tempelhof to Hostomel and made a convincing powerpoint presentation to Putin.
Now I want to hear about the plan to drop paratroopers on Tokyo. Another great video.
I mean Operation Downfall did ask for a landing outside of Tokyo.
Yikes, that's a big one.
I'm no historian but I have been interested in military history all my life. And I love it when I hear about something new. Eclipse II sounds bonkers. Thanks.
Eclipse 2 and Downfall will always be fascinating operation to me, Can't stop thinking how it would end up if the operation were to be carried out
The invasion of Japan? A morbid part of me always wonders what the world would look like today had it been carried out.
@@DakotaofRaptors Japan's population would have been massively reduced. I could even see the US annexing what remained of the country.
@@Choppytehbear1337 I imagine Allied occupation wouldn't be so lenient after suffering heavy losses.
@@DakotaofRaptors I expect the Soviet influence would have been much greater in the East, because if Japan didn't surrender the Soviets would have had cause to move armies into China; possibly even turning Mao's communists into a puppet regime rather than the fair-weather allies they were IRL.
it probably would’ve been a horrible
defeat for the allies, it’s a good thing it didn’t happen, imagine market garden by a factor of 100.
It's insane that they actually considered this
These are the same men who though dropping a single Regiment of Paras on Rome was a good idea (And no - Nothing to do with Montgomery; the geniuses were Marshall, Arnold and Ike)
For some reason the word “bloodbath” leaps to mind.
Why didn't they just save printer's ink and call it Market Garden Pt 2
Side note: Anyone else think that the actor who played the Dutch Capt Arie in A Bridge Too Far really resembles his character. Good casting. 10:30
Overall they did a great job casting that movie. The Dutch lady who owned the house that got used for all the wounded (I forget her name) looks like a damn clone of the real one.
@@StalwartPikeman Liv Ullmann
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liv_Ullmann
@@StalwartPikeman ''Dutch lady....'' LMFAO!!! The actress is Liv Ullmann, a Norwegian. (she was actually born in Japan too)
@@jimihendrix991 Um, the person she was portraying was a Dutch woman. Think before you type.
@@StalwartPikeman 🐔
The paratroopers of the Allied forces had nothing left to prove in Europe by 1945. They had done brilliant heroic work in Normandy, Holland, and in the forests of the Ardennes! Have never been a fan of the decisions made at Yalta, but if it helped put a cork in Eclipse Two, then good one.
I also have seen Band of Brothers
@@pyry1948
And you believe it all?
@@johnburns4017 what does this have to do with the amazing accomplishments of allied paratroopers??
@@JM-wf2to
Do not get your history from Hollywood.
@@johnburns4017exactly… these people are fucking brain dead lmao
Please do a similar video about Operation Downfall.
Addendum: The Operations Room could do the naval bombardment of Japan and the Intel Report could do Operation Downfall.
They did it! However there was little opposition because Japan had stopped fighting. But the occupation for Japan was Operation Downfall. They just didn't suffer horrendous casualties like they had planned.
I can actually see Operation Olympic (its actual name) having a considerable chance of succeeding if it wasn't for the several months long Okinawa campaign.
07:25 - the White Rose were student / conscript soldier radicals. This photo shows Sophie & Hans Scholl with Christopher Probst. These three were all arrested and executed in February 1943 after conducting a high-profile anti-nazi leafleting campaign from Münich University. This was the style of the White Rose, to agitate the German population to resist the Nazis. They were not involved in assisting the Allied invasion as a group & especially these individuals, whose only connection to Allies is their texts were reprinted and air-dropped on Germany after their deaths.
very nice detailed info on the operation. I particularly love thoses 3d hand-drawn maps, before satellites and computers. well done !
Sounds like a thing that HOI4 player would do
"Just 5 more victory points, guys. I can cap them with just a single para-drop. Now give me some green air!"
- General Monty, 1945
From 16th April to 2nd May the Red Army lost 82,000 men plus 280.000 wounded during the battle for Berlin.
The were supported by heavy equipment and the russian Air Force.
At that time the remains of the german forces were concentrated in and around the capital.
An airborne attack without heavy equipment like tanks, artillery and ground attack aircraft would have been very costly for the men, just to donate it to the Russians later.
I do wonder if there'd be more surrenders if the western allies did drop, of course it'd be a bloodbath but I know Germans both civilian and military went west to escape russian retributions, perhaps once they heat its the Americans or Commonwealth forces attacking they might see it as a way out? Then again if you're defending Berlin at the end of the war you're probably very fanatical so maybe not.
That is true about Russian losses, but, they were rather incompetent, and their bombers/artillery were bad at best.
@@F.R.E.D.D2986Thats just BS, and Soviet guns and planes were not used incompetently, but not impressive either. Other than that its easily explained by Zhukov and Konev telling their Fronts to "Rush B" to get to the Reichstag and Elbe first.
9:35 Me as a Dutch person: "Wtf is that surname!?"
As you can imagine, it took several takes to get my pronunciation of that name anywhere near close
@@TheIntelReport Hehe, understandable. Even a Dutch person (like myself) had to have a take or two to get it right. Not that it is difficult, just very unusual.
As an English speaker who's spoken in Japanese and Chinese, Dutch is insane in comparison.
It would have been a slaughter.
And yet I see the comments of “The Germans would have welcomed them.” Not with Hitler still at the helms. By that stage in the war, he may have been out of his mind, but so long as he was alive, he had the authority to order the Wehrmacht Commanders to attack. No doubt an airborne drop on Berlin would have been a PR Coup for the Nazi’s especially if they could surround and destroy the areas where the paratroopers were intended to land. Luckily this was just a plan and it was never executed. It may have looked good on paper, but when a plan is put into action, nothing ever goes according to it.
Most the Germans would have surrendered to the West vs fight like they did the Russians. They knew there was a reckoning coming.
I'm glad they didn't do it. The costs would have been horrendous.
A repeat of Market Garden, I would bet with a similar outcome.
Except possible far worse.
yeah Brereton and co really cocked up market garden.
I really wish Intel Report could also do one with Operation Downfall, which would have been this but on steroids.
Wow, this was very interesting! I had never heard of this planned operation before!
Glad you liked it!
Glad this operation didn't go do down. Monty never 'dashed' anywhere. Those paratroopers woulda had a long wait.
There is an argument that the dash would have been easier if the Germans had a mess in their rear.
@@jsealejandro06 😂
@@jsealejandro06 yeah because it worked SO well the last time
Maybe if the 82nd and Gavin actually took Nijmegen on the first day, rather than worry about fantasy panzers.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD Haha. I wasn't talking about Market Garden. Monty wasn't the problem with that operation...it was several factors..mostly the single road. Also, the unfortunate placement of Bittrich's Panzers in Arnhem for rest.
If this was a real thing, Inglorious Basterds would have been far different.
If this actually happened it’d be Undoubtedly the bloodiest battle for the western powers of the war.
Often overlooked, hats off to the German resistance members. Also, thank God this operation never occurred. With how hard Market Garden shit the bed, it's terrifying to thing of how awful this could have been.
correct to stop on the elbe
This operation would be a really interesting "What if" and "What if" it happened when the Soviets were attacking Berlin?
>Does the most ambitious airborne operation ever
>It fails
>Plans to drop paratroopers on Germany’s most defended city
>Refuses to elaborate
The airborne would've been absolutely slaughtered had this plan happened. Possibly even forced to breakout west, or surrender.
I would thumbs up, but TH-cam won't let me for some reason
Amazing they put this much thought into it after how Market Garden went.
Exactly, even Hitler ceased large para ops after Crete
General De Guingand:
_‘It is interesting to consider how far we failed in this operation. It should be remembered that the Arnhem bridgehead was only a part of the whole. We had gained a great deal in spite of this local set-back. The Nijmegen bridge was ours, and it proved of immense value later on. And the brilliant advance by XXX Corps led the way to the liberation of a large part of Holland, not to speak of providing a stepping stone to the successful battles of the Rhineland.’_
And the Germans. MONTY The Field-Marshal1944-1976, NIGEL HAMILTON, Page 98
_‘General Student, in a statement after the war, considered the ‘Market Garden’ operation to have ‘proved a great success. At one stroke it brought the British 2nd Army into the possession of vital bridges and valuable territory. The conquest of the Nijmegen area meant that the creation of a good jumping board for the offensive which contributed to the end of war.’ Student was expressing the professional admiration of an airborne commander - ‘those who had planned and inaugurated with complete the first airborne operations of military history, had not now even thought of such a possible action by the enemy…the Allied Airborne action completely surprised us._ *_The operation hit my army nearly in the centre and split it into two parts…_* _in spite of all precautions, all bridges fell intact into the hands of the Allied airborne forces - another proof of the paralysing effect of surprise by airborne forces!’_
I had never heard of this possible operation before, so this surprised me. Outside the border agreements the different Allied powers had made for splitting up Germany, there's another big reason why Eclipse II shouldn't have been made.
Japan. While Germany was on its very last legs in spring 1945, Japan, though losing badly and suffering heavy casualties, they showed no signs of giving up at this time. Operation Downfall, the invasion of the Japanese home islands was going to start planning. The 11th Airborne Division had already been fighting in the Pacific and was slated for Downfall.
I mention this because the plan was to bring a number of troops that were done in Europe and prepare them for the assault on the home islands. This was going to be a big fight and casualties were expected to be heavy. With victory in Europe secured, that's more men freed up for war in the Pacific.
Do remember that the Battle of Okinawa was still being fought with heavy casualties when Germany surrendered in May 1945.
Oh sweet! A Intel Report video!
Good video coverage!
Like leap-frogging the Valkyrie provision.
As Leonard Cohen once said :-
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons
First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin.
i love leonard cohen man
A man of culture.
Terrific video!
Clearly the planners learned nothing from Market Garden. Allied intelligence completely missed teh SS Panzer army that interrupted Market garden and missed teh Ardennes Offensive, Lastly, Monty was consistently overestimating his timelines. Thank God that this never occurred,
I understand that they did know about the panzers.
you lot are amazing. You consistently accuse Montgomery of being too slow, too cautious, and yet then go on to say that he overestimate his timeliness. As for Market Garden and missing the SS Panzer Divisions, you are completely wrong. They knew what was there and in what strength and it was correctly deemed to not be a reason to abandon the aims. In fact, neither 9th SS Panzer or 10th SS Panzer had any tanks between them. Yes, some SPGs and a handful of flakwagons, some armoured cars and plenty of half-tracks but no tanks of their own. The ONLY tanks in the area were those of the local school of armour, all obsolete, and those of PK244, even more obsolete French B2s captured in 1940.
@@sean640307 Monty can't win with the average American, you should know that by now. Too cautious, too reckless, blah blah blah.
Clearly you live in a different Universe. Not a single thing in your post is true
@@tessSGS agreed! It's farcical
Nice video, but the closing comment was strange. The Allies had nothing to prove.
On 13:54 was Eisenhower still a four star General?
Makes you wonder what might have been!
I do absolutely love hair brained and wild schemes like this.
How do 5 divisions only have 20,000 paratroopers between them
20,000 was just the minimum amount of troops needed for the operation, the actual number would've been much higher with those five divisions.
Perhaps Operation Eclipse II would have a greater chance of success if it was delayed until after the Western Allies had reached and crossed the Elbe River. Bradley's and Montgomery's armies would be much closer to Berlin to support the paratroopers who would not have to wait long for reinforcements.
Still couldn't rely on Monty.
@@bloodybones63 say you're American without saying you're American
@@daveadkins3780 Sorry, don't know what that means.
@@bloodybones63
Monty advanced thru 9 countries without a reverse. The most successful general in WW2.
@@johnburns4017 None so blind....
Read the rest of the comments.
Commander Has Another Outstanding Solution
I find it really interesting how Stalin referred to the United States and United Kingdom as a seemingly separate entity than the Soviet Union when discussing plans with his staff toward the end of the war. “Find out what the ‘allies’ plans are for Berlin.” A bone chilling foreshadowing of the Cold War.
Doesn't seem that odd to me. The Western allies were equally suspicious of the Soviets, the only difference being that they were one, not several governments.
@@2Links True. Also notable is the fact that the soviets invested heavily in human resources to spy on both the UK and US; Stalin knew we had the bomb before the Potsdam conference and he knew we only had material to deliver two to Japan - how do you think the Japanese knew they didn't have to worry about us bombing them off the face of the planet? Stalin told them; that's whey they didn't surrender until Russia attacked their Chinese holding overland.
As far back as the 1920 Communist International (COMINTERN) Meeting in Baku, Soviet Azerbajan, Vladimir Lenin told his Communist Comrades:
"The Road to Paris lies through Peking. . ."
That's when they called "Beijing" "PEKING".
Lenin put forward a General Plan for World Communist Conquest:
FIRST, the Communists would conquer Asia, Africa and Latin America, which they
considered the "Rural" areas of the World.
SECOND, the Communists would conquer Western Europe and North America, which
they considered to be the "Urban" areas of the World.
(source: "You can Trust The Communists", by Dr. Fred Shwarz, MD., the Founder of The Christian Anti-Communist Crusade.
0:38 Lol, what's going on there? Why is there a guy strapped to the hood of that Willis Jeep?
If you wrote this as a video game script it would not be believable.
How have they not learned from Market Garden? Airborne tasked to hold positions for days, while ground forces move an exaggerated distance in a minimum of days, and also underestimating the defense of Berlin. It’s berlin, no general would let it fal.
Sounds like market garden part 2
I probably shouldn't nitpick pronounciation, but every time you said Reichsbanner I heard Reichsbahner, imagining how the Reich's railway employees were secretly plotting against the regime lol
great work 👌
Besterbreugen is one of those Dutch names we too initially have traboule with. And you are doing rather well I must say 😁👍🏻
It would appear some Dutch people have trouble with even spelling it properly
Bestebreurtje...
Thanks! 😃
I don't think the British, Canadian and Polish paras had anything to prove. My Dad was joined the Paras towards the end of WW2, he always thought they were being trained for Japan, maybe this was it. He died a couple of years ago aged 92, was very proud of his association with the Parachute Regiment although he never forgave Monty for Arnhem. He ended up in Palestine after the war, didn't enjoy it.
The old generation who fought in WW2 always aged well in their time. The veterans always make it to 90-100 year old age. Really show how physical training can have good effect on human body. Thanks your dad for service
One more major complication to this plan were the Soviets themselves. Stalin was *VERY* keen on taking Berlin first before the Allies got there, and so i do believe had some paratroopers landed in Berlin they possibly could've been shot at by furious Soviet troops, and Stalin would've been equally furious at the Allied powers and demanded the paratroopers be immediately withdrawn.
I guess in this situation Stalin would have to be a bit more Casualty sensitive. The red army lost 1 million men dead in 1945 and 100,000 in Berlin alone.
Maybe in another timeline Stalin cares more about the demographic future of the Soviet Union, so he decides to let the allies especially America bleed a little.
@@joeywheelerii9136 :
In the book "Why the Allies Won", by British Historian Sir Richard Overy, he said the Red Army lost about 200,000 Dead, in Berlin alone. Other sources go as high as 300,000 Soviet War Dead in just taking Berlin.
In early 1945, Ike had estimated that if the Americans or Western Allies had captured Berlin, then we would lose "only" 100,000 Dead.
Assuming they were all Americans, our total maximum War Dead would have increased from 420,000 (in all theaters) to 520,000, an increase of almost 24%.
Ike did not think Americans would have accepted that. And then there was the question "What was the point of that?", considering that Berlin was to be in the Soviet Zone of Occupation. That was set at the Level of "FDR-Churchill-Stalin" and above Ike's Pay Grade.
OTOH, even if the higher estimate of 300,000 Soviet Deaths, in taking Berlin, is accepted, that 300,000 increased the total Soviet War Dead from 26,700,000 to 27,000,000, what it was at War's End, or by "only" 1.12%.
It is relevant to consider a famous (or infamous) quote:
"When one person dies, it is a Tragedy,
when a million people die, it is a Statistic."
----- Joseph Stalin
Hope u make vid on halt of US Army on Elbe and plan to launch raid into Berlin which was cancelled by Ike
I'd like to see that too. My dad's 83rd ID was across the Elbe, and uniformly the brass wanted to keep going to Berlin. At the level below, say, Major, everybody was happy to stop 30 or so miles away with an autobahn. The fighting to establish the bridgehead at Barby was not genteel.
my great uncle was in the 4th Ukrainian front in Berlin in 1945 . It would have been chaos when he is fighting the Germans he looks and sees America paratroopers raining lol.
So your telling me Paradrop stat is now considered historical? BASED and cheesestratpilled!
Operations Victor and Mike series when
Like 11th Airborne's jump at the Rock
I made it about 1/4 of the way through this before I was like I know a hairbrained Monty idea when I hear one
Monty would race across Germany in 3 days 😂he had been reading too many 3rd Army battle reports.
Yes 3rd Army excelled at taking empty countryside. Against enemies though .... not so much
3 months and 3rd Army would have been their failed attempt ot take Metz causing 50k in Casualties- Funny how all the Patton Fan Boys are quiet on that. What makes it worse that hte flamboyant Armor Genius was ordered to by pass it but instead decided he wanted the glory of being the first general in 1000 yrs to take it. The Old, Infirm Stomach and Ulcer troops and Cadets holding it gave him a bloody nose and after three months he quitly haded his mess over to others to clean up
14:47 they got the actor looking just like the real thing in band of brothers
Enjoyed your video and I gave it a Thumbs Up
Glad you enjoyed it
I served in 1/505 PIR of the 82nd Airborne, best battalion in the Army.
OKW: No balls, you won't do it
My dyslexic brain read this as Drop Paris on Berlin, which would've also done the trick
Prove themselves as elite warriors...? Surely those paratroopers did that in North Africa, Sicily, Normandy, Southern France, & Holland.
I am afraid they would be massacred by flak towers
I never knew of these operations and assumed Varsity was it for airborne ops post Battle of the Bulge.
This entire ordeal sounded like Market Garden 2.0
yep and Brereton.Browning and Williams cocked up the planning of that plus Gavin not following orders did not help
I swear this is the proof time travel exists there's no way a non-hoi4 player thought about htis
This feels an awful lot like Monty trying to prove Market Garden could've worked by going double or nothing... no, triple or nothing.
Also, now I kinda wanna see someone do a what-if scenario on a total allied invasion of Japan proper, the various paratrooper units taking part, as well. It'd be so easy to set up, too, you just have a meeting at the beginning where Truman refuses to use the bombs
Back then, even a Democrat decided to use the bomb. Wouldn't happen today.
They implemented Operation Downfall. It was after the surrender, and met little opposition. But the plan was the same, nothing changed.
@@bloodybones63 no, they would have. Go and look up the ridiculous estimated death toll for an invasion of Japan. Compared to that, 20,000 Japanese civilians is fucking peanuts, compared to the estimated 5 million civilian Japanese casualties and 1 million allied casualties
@@bloodybones63 if you mean nuking Russia or China in a first strike style, then yeah, probably not
@@ironboy3245 That wouldn't matter to Democrats, since to them America is evil, racist, ect.
Great channel!!
The Soviets wanted Berlin for themselves. It could have caused a competition situation where the Soviets fire on the Allies to ensure they take the city.
This idea sounds like pure suicide: the difference between paratroopers and regular infantry is that paratroopers have lighter gear loads and less heavy equipment to allow for rapid "shock-and-awe" assaults behind the enemy front lines, with the hope that they can achieve their objectives quickly and hold out until the main forces on the frontlines can advance forward to relieve them.
At most, you'd probably get a few minutes of surprise, a few hours before the enemy can figure out the relative position and strength of the paratroopers, and a few days before they can redirect other more-heavily-armed units to go after the paratroopers. If the allied frontlines can't advance all the way to the paratroopers' location in that time, all the paratroopers are likely to be overrun by the enemy and either killed or captured.
And that isn't even mentioning the sheer scale of transport aircraft needed to bring enough paratroopers to capture an entire city far into enemy territory, or the relative lack of air support all along the frontlines during the buildup to the operation when all the planes are being prepared for this massive undertaking.
Don't get me started on the scale of the airlift that would be needed just to resupply the paratroopers...
very interesting plan, hadn't heard of this before.
1 question though, why refer to 'The German resistance'? As far as I've been given to understand, while there were individuals and small groups that were dissatisfied with Nazi rule or some of their policies, expressed sometimes by small groups through helping people hide from the holocaust or circulating pamphlets, and the circles of the military elite hatched a few assassination / coup plots, there never was a real, organized or united resistance movement within Germany, and they certainly did not manage to get the active support of the general population. Referencing to those small groups, though very courageous, as 'The German Resistance' feels dishonest and also unfair to the resistance movement like in Austria (which was the one providing the western Allies intel on manufacturing of the V2 among others), let alone the real resistance movements in places like Norway, Netherlands, France, let alone Greece, Yugoslavia, Poland, Ukraine Belarus and the rest of USSR.
Hell, the Yugoslav Partisans liberated their own country before any allied ground forces reached their territory, the Polish had a fully functional Underground State, and the populations of Belarus, Ukraine, and the rest of the USSR suffered tremendously for nazi reprisals against the civilian population for the actions of resistance fighters.
Using the term 'The' for German resistance makes for an unfair comparison to those countries and what little resistance there was in Germany, in my opinion.
Luckily Eisenhower and Bradley were in charge rather than Montgomery and Patton. One hundred thousand casualties for an objective that had already been promised to the Soviets would have been a terrible cost for nothing more than prestige. The only reason to undertake this operation would have been to renege on what Roosevelt promised Stalin at Yalta and keep the this territory after the war. Letting the Soviets expend more of their own lives on territory they planned to oppress after the was the right decision.
This just sounds like Operation Market Garden.
This is literally a Hoi4 game
This would have made Market Garden look like a massive success in comparison.
Allied high command had a HOI4 player moment
Idk what is crazier, this or Hostomel...
So how would landing in Berlin sit with Stalin? The Allies agreed to stop at the Elbe.
You're gonna talk about Easy Company in the European campaign and not even MENTION the world famous war hero Sargent Franklin John Rock?
For shame.
Imagine, this would have been the Biggest disaster the Allies had in late war.
I always wondered what if market gardens resources were directed at attacking Berlin instead, with a sea landing at Wilhelmshaven instead of Normandy, with obsolete battleships beached to give direct cover and support of troops against shore defenses, its the biggest port and nowhere near where they would expect.
So, imagine if no market garden and add those troops to d-days total dropped troops, new weapons and germany doesn't have the fuel or armed men, which most of which are near french coast or way the heck off dying in the east.
I'd at least like to see a movie that what ifd D-day at Normandy had the old battleships beached with the troops, maybe even modified and filled with them, bristling with guns of all calibers at each beachhead instead of off shore.
Ah! A video about Joe Toye Day!
After WW2 the Americans appear to have had a strategy to change history to put themselves in better light. They all sing out of the the same hymn sheet. US corps commander Joe Collins was used to great effect by Monty, he called him Lightening Joe. He engaged in dynamic warfare with Monty. Yet in the World at War series made in the 70s, he said Monty was only good at set piece battles, the same old line they all come out with - read from a crib sheet written by someone high no doubt. Which was tripe of course.
Monty wasn't a dynamic commander? He engaged in bypassing, isolating warfare in North Africa. Monty's ability to wage a dynamic battle was clear for all to see.
In North Africa one commander routinely outstripped his supplies driving his troops to exhaustion, often squandering any positive gains that he had made and leaving himself open to counterattack. That commander was Rommel. Strangely a commander many regard as a brilliant general.
Then we have one that joined later in North Africa that took his time to build his forces, stock supplies and increased the level of inter-service cooperation. He absorbed an attack in his first encounter with Rommel, that he had correctly anticipated and planned for. He then launched an effective counterattack that kicked off the drive that ended in victory, chasing Rommel 1,500 miles all the while adjusting his strategy on the fly to maximum effectiveness. That commander was Montgomery.
Welcome back!
That Nixon photo though 😂