Pastor Joel, I can't stop telling you how impressed I am with your open-mind on this topic. Most Pastors are afraid to go near it. I've been saved for 40 years and much of the OT was always confusing to me. Dr. Heiser helped me to connect the dots, OT to NT, more in the 3 years than I had in the previous 37 years combined. Now the Holy Spirit is using you for that purpose, not simply for this one Christian, but many many more.
I am convinced that God teleported the people groups all over the earth at Babel. That’s why we see ziggurats all over the earth. It would make sense then the “gods” that people sacrificed humans too were the watchers.
Very interesting topic Appreciated you asking clarification on some of the more unique positions being shared Great show brother - looking forward to more
The curse of the serpent comes after the sin in the garden so no metaphor needed, this points to Eve talking to a humanoid reptile who God afterwards curses to crawl on its belly and eat dust as a snake would. I've instinctually thought this since a child, why would God have to curse a snake (his own creation) to do something a snake does, slither along the dirt smelling with its tongue? Unless it stood upright, with limbs before.
I listened to that, too. Tobias offered to make all the emails, texts, and video public. He said that some was in German, but offered to have a "certified translator" to translate it into English. Frankly, I was very uncomfortable listening to Joel's program on Tobias. Some of it just didn't smell right. And then Eschatology Matters gives him a platform for a 2 hour takedown. I'll be interested to see Joel's response.
@vladyakubets You might want to reread them. They didn't say Tobias slandered him, they said that the airing of the episode led to slander. Moreover, Tobias stated he had all the evidence, and offered to make it public if Joel asked for it.
Pastor Joel, great interview on this fascinating subject. Pastor Van Dorn's Giants Son's of God book is my go to for everything Nehphilim. Have you considered the short season perspective and that timeline wise we are somewhere in the gathering of the Gog Magog battle with only perhaps that and the Great White Throne judgement remaining. Seems that the decay of society points to Satan being released for the last couple hundred years with scientism, heliocentric model. "dark ages" perhaps being age of a great time period, renaissance, etc.
37:00 Satan was not bound in A.D. 70 (and still hasn't been bound). However, Matthew 24.29 and Revelation 12 (not to mention Isaiah 34) do seem to teach that Satan was cast from heaven in A.D. 70.
Genesis 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." I see "those days" and "after that" as both of the time periods when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men. It's just like: There were pancakes on that Saturday; and also on the Sunday after that, when the parents visited their children. This can be interpreted as the parents going on both Saturday and Sunday.
So, for those wo have put thought into this (LORD Willing, more than me!-) from Hly Scrpt -do We have reason to believe that the Counsel was not ruling until "the fall"? Did the Div Cnsl fall; when?
I'm with you man. If this information is truly important for believers to know, they should eventually make this available for free online. Pay-wall it at first. Maybe release it in 6 months to a year, but it's garbage to keep it permanently behind a paywall. I understand they need money, but this is very off-putting, and I might even unsubscribe. There's plenty of other content out there talking about the Divine council, and hundreds of episodes of the late Mike Heiser's podcast.
The Jehovah’s Witness view is that Micheal and Angel incarnated and became Jesus. Doug believes that Michael was another name for the pre-incarnate Jesus, the second person of the Trinity. It’s a world of difference. Spurgeon believed that Michael was a type/symbolic/foreshadowing of Christ (like how David was a type of Christ in the story of him fighting Goliath and crushing his head like how Christ is described as doing in Genesis 3).
"Scholars" constantly refer to the "original manuscripts/texts" when they're searching for anything that will back up their bias. There weren't 70 people mentioned in Genesis 10, there are 72. Everything that happens on earth is a shadow of things that happen in heaven: what you see on earth is a mirror of what goes on in heaven/the 4th dimension/the spiritual realm. Get a KJV Bible and keep/guard it as your pearl of great price.
So, in this view propagated, a Woman has rulership on a [Divine] Counsel -Blessed by GOD! Naw. Rejected, In LOVE, Brother. Keep punchin', chip'n away -more Precious then GOLD
@@tyc4587Grace, Peace, n LOVE in The HOLY KING, Brother. Hope all is well with Ya. Saw Your Shawn Ryan sub, are You a Vet.? i am a paralyzed U.S. ARMY SAPPER (S.O.F., Engineer Style); 18C class, etc. Did Ya put "what" to dialogue, or to ..?. If Your dealing in Truth n LOVE -He said that Eve was ruling on the Divine Counsel. Do We Not see a serious Problem with Woman Ruling On The Divine Counsel (this is Not the role of Women, ever -in Holy Script.) See what im getting at here -role reversal and some elevation role (in Authority)
It's gonna be Shalom awesome to see all the reformed calvinists begin to migrate back to pagan worship. One or 2 generations from now they'll be building temples to creatures. Shalom.
If the nephilim were abhorant because they mixed heaven and earth, why are we so set on the idea that the 2 places of heaven and earth must become 1 place in the future, especially when there are ZERO scriptures that support this idea? Jesus said "on earth as it is heaven".
@tyc4587 ummm, this is not a good translation at all. Unite is not the right word. I looked at the interlinear and here are better ones: Ephesians 1:10 [10]that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him. -NKJV Ephesians 1:10 [10]with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him -NASB 10. in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him; -Young's Literal
@@tyc4587 A very normal idea based on tradition, but not on Scripture. Scripture is the highest authority rather than 'normal ideas'. The Rapture is a very 'normal idea' today but it's absolute hogwash. I'm having a lot of luck out here. God is good and I'm understanding more of His Word than ever before.
Hello, This topic and the like is going beyond what is written in the Scriptures. We also need to note that the Bible never makes these topics a great focus - why should we? Read all 4 Gospel accounts - what did Jesus preach, what was His focus? These topics are speculation and shifting focus from Jesus which can be spiritually dangerous, especially for people with sensitive imagination. These speculations can also be used by evil one to attack Christians and insinuate imaginations and thoughts/questions regarding their faith (fiery darts of the wicked one, MLJ has a good series of sermons on Ephesians 6). Let us focus on Jesus alone and not let the enemy of our souls any opportunity for attacks. Watch and pray, not to fall into temptation. Don’t be distracted by these topics while basics of our faith are ignored.
In the Bible, we are warned about mythologies. The definition of mythology is that it is false. We start with the biblical text, not with myths. The Bible does not say the Watchers gave a decree to the king. The king said it was a Watcher in his dream who gave a decree and a few verses later, Daniel corrects him and says the decree is from God. These men are reading into the text what has fascinated them but it takes away from God and the Bible.
From stuff like this, to people obsessing about the rapture and being taken away and ignoring all the Church's work that has YET to be done before that, it just seems ppl want to find escapism at all costs, in everything.
@@yourhighness8105 anything that distracts from God is an idol. An unhealthy obsession with mythology is definitely an idol. The Bible warns against idolatry. That's the general idea. Obviously, more mature Christians can handle (some) mythology especially if they're involved in apologetics and witnessing to unsaved people who hold to those mythologies. But the danger is there nonetheless.
@@spechund7109 I think you should listen to what the divine council is all about before making assumptions. It totally aligns with the bible and there is nothing mythical to it or whatever you want to presume
Most scholars would rather see Jesus as the personification of the Angel Of the Lord, consistent with the Two Powers in Heaven theory that posits that the angels of the Lord is God
Ignoring Romans 16:20...guys, Satan has already been defeated. People sin all on their own without satan and demons. Joel is definitely still a charismatic. Lol
Divine Counsel theology is always too speculative for me. I’m willing to concede that there is something compelling about it, but is always in the obscure corners of Scripture. I think this is what Paul is warning about in Colossians.
So you’re going to put it behind a paywall because Christians aren’t ready for it? How are they going to be ready for it if they don’t hear it. Doesn’t sound like you have much confidence in your position. Or perhaps it’s a money grab. I don’t think that’s the case but the reason you gave isn’t a compelling argument
I know this fascinates ppl, but this isn't what God wants us to focus on. Knowing this stuff won't help with salvation. Plus, it takes the focus off the Great Commission and the Church's role on Earth. You don't need to understand how an engine was made to drive a car. That's even assuming everything he's teaching here is even accurate (a Big if)
I’m sorry you’re saying God doesn’t want us to know what’s in the word? You’re also saying we should only focus on salvation? The only book in the Bible with a blessing is Revelation and it is instructs us to watch and prepare ourselves. I would say the entire Bible is given to us for instruction.
@@darrinjones6093 I read the Bible, including Revelations. The Bible doesn't go into detail including about the Nephilim, but some people are fascinated with trying to find out exactly who they are. Does knowing every single Nephilim help in your Christian walk? No it doesn't.
@@spechund7109 So we should just ignore it and not study it? It’s there for a reason. Hard topics in the Bible should not be forbidden and disregarded. We study many biblical issues where the depth of detail isn’t there and leaves open speculation. I would counter and say, perhaps with UFOs becoming much more prevalent in our modern culture that it’s good to know of about nephelim/council/spiritual realm so people aren’t deceived. I happen to believe we’re teed up for the great deception and knowing this information can be helpful. I’ve heard of many people finding salvation after finding the works of Heiser and others, this topic draws in a lot of nonbelievers. It can be made into a witnessing tool. Any Christian knows the atonement and resurrection is the most important and pivotal doctrine of our faith, but again we should study the entirety of the Bible in our walk, including lesser topics such as this.
Jesus returned in 70 AD like he promised his followers in Mathew 24 and Luke 23. The writings of Peter, Paul, and John all spoke to the imminency of this event. Jerusalem aka Mystery Babylon as well as the Beast system (Roman empire) were judged and destroyed at the culmination of this event. Jesus returned and set up His 1000 year kingdom and the evidence of this is the architecture and infrastructure that we have inherited from the period that we refer to as the Middle Ages. We are lied to about timelines, geography, actors, and parties. We are gaslit at every turn to the point that no history outside of Scripture can be 100% trusted. I pray that this ministry is interested in seeking truth and not just the final stop in a gatekeeping operation.
Pastor Joel, I can't stop telling you how impressed I am with your open-mind on this topic. Most Pastors are afraid to go near it. I've been saved for 40 years and much of the OT was always confusing to me. Dr. Heiser helped me to connect the dots, OT to NT, more in the 3 years than I had in the previous 37 years combined. Now the Holy Spirit is using you for that purpose, not simply for this one Christian, but many many more.
Excellent… it really makes you realize how much we can learn about our world and redemptive history
Another person here who feels the DCW is important context to know. Excited to watch this later. Also adding to the algorithm for you guys
I am convinced that God teleported the people groups all over the earth at Babel. That’s why we see ziggurats all over the earth. It would make sense then the “gods” that people sacrificed humans too were the watchers.
Great show!
Very interesting topic
Appreciated you asking clarification on some of the more unique positions being shared
Great show brother - looking forward to more
I am excited to watch this one, though I will have to catch it later. Just wanted to add to the algorithm.
This was awesome. Thank you for discussing this topic.
Love Doug Van Dorn!
The curse of the serpent comes after the sin in the garden so no metaphor needed, this points to Eve talking to a humanoid reptile who God afterwards curses to crawl on its belly and eat dust as a snake would. I've instinctually thought this since a child, why would God have to curse a snake (his own creation) to do something a snake does, slither along the dirt smelling with its tongue? Unless it stood upright, with limbs before.
The world is not just stuff
I've heard James B Jordan talk about Michael as the pre-incarnate son of God. Cool to hear it here too.
Hey Joel would you please try to do an interview with Tobias. I watched the video Eschatology matters released and a direct dialogue would be helpful.
I listened to that, too. Tobias offered to make all the emails, texts, and video public. He said that some was in German, but offered to have a "certified translator" to translate it into English. Frankly, I was very uncomfortable listening to Joel's program on Tobias. Some of it just didn't smell right. And then Eschatology Matters gives him a platform for a 2 hour takedown. I'll be interested to see Joel's response.
Eschatology Matters has taken down the video and repented of promoting the lies and slander of Tobias.
@vladyakubets
You might want to reread them. They didn't say Tobias slandered him, they said that the airing of the episode led to slander. Moreover, Tobias stated he had all the evidence, and offered to make it public if Joel asked for it.
Pastor Joel, great interview on this fascinating subject. Pastor Van Dorn's Giants Son's of God book is my go to for everything Nehphilim. Have you considered the short season perspective and that timeline wise we are somewhere in the gathering of the Gog Magog battle with only perhaps that and the Great White Throne judgement remaining. Seems that the decay of society points to Satan being released for the last couple hundred years with scientism, heliocentric model. "dark ages" perhaps being age of a great time period, renaissance, etc.
Great episode, Thank you
37:00 Satan was not bound in A.D. 70 (and still hasn't been bound). However, Matthew 24.29 and Revelation 12 (not to mention Isaiah 34) do seem to teach that Satan was cast from heaven in A.D. 70.
I hear the cosmos is haunted....
Always interesting to see/hear a different perspective.
Michael J. Heiser messed a lot of people's worldview up before God took him away.
16:30... see jubilees also... jubilees point blank says they were assigned land/peoples but "israel/Yashar-Al" was kept for me as my own inheritance
Genesis 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
I see "those days" and "after that" as both of the time periods when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men. It's just like:
There were pancakes on that Saturday; and also on the Sunday after that, when the parents visited their children. This can be interpreted as the parents going on both Saturday and Sunday.
So, for those wo have put thought into this (LORD Willing, more than me!-) from Hly Scrpt -do We have reason to believe that the Counsel was not ruling until "the fall"? Did the Div Cnsl fall; when?
btw, money and cashflow is not to be our focus nor coveted.
We need money to be able to fulfill our duties that God has given us, and so we can be generous. Have extra is a blessing and not inherently sinful
I'm with you man. If this information is truly important for believers to know, they should eventually make this available for free online. Pay-wall it at first. Maybe release it in 6 months to a year, but it's garbage to keep it permanently behind a paywall. I understand they need money, but this is very off-putting, and I might even unsubscribe. There's plenty of other content out there talking about the Divine council, and hundreds of episodes of the late Mike Heiser's podcast.
But also not hated or neglected as money is one of the means we care for our family. Being poor is not a Christian virtue
@@rlee1185 I don’t think he’s ever said that this topic of the divine counsel is behind a paywall
Regarding Eve and the "snake," seraphim means fiery serpent...
Yeah dragons
You guys are neat.
Michael is Jesus? That sounds like JW son.
It does, but a lot of ppl held that view throughout history.
The Jehovah’s Witness view is that Micheal and Angel incarnated and became Jesus. Doug believes that Michael was another name for the pre-incarnate Jesus, the second person of the Trinity. It’s a world of difference. Spurgeon believed that Michael was a type/symbolic/foreshadowing of Christ (like how David was a type of Christ in the story of him fighting Goliath and crushing his head like how Christ is described as doing in Genesis 3).
"Scholars" constantly refer to the "original manuscripts/texts" when they're searching for anything that will back up their bias.
There weren't 70 people mentioned in Genesis 10, there are 72. Everything that happens on earth is a shadow of things that happen in heaven: what you see on earth is a mirror of what goes on in heaven/the 4th dimension/the spiritual realm. Get a KJV Bible and keep/guard it as your pearl of great price.
Why would God appoint fallen angels over men instead of obedient heavenly angels?
They weren't always fallen...
Check out Dr. Michael Heiser’s work on the Devine Council
I heard Michael heiser. He was awesome. Looking forward to this
Listen to the 'The Lord of Spirits' podcast
"Trees" has been uncoded to mean 'witnesses': those who testify of the LORD, YHWH. A.K.A. children of God.
Algorithm!
I wish I could pay for every channel I would like to but I wouldn’t have rent money. Sorry, I’ll have to stick with the free content.
So, in this view propagated, a Woman has rulership on a [Divine] Counsel -Blessed by GOD! Naw. Rejected, In LOVE, Brother. Keep punchin', chip'n away -more Precious then GOLD
What
@@tyc4587Grace, Peace, n LOVE in The HOLY KING, Brother. Hope all is well with Ya. Saw Your Shawn Ryan sub, are You a Vet.? i am a paralyzed U.S. ARMY SAPPER (S.O.F., Engineer Style); 18C class, etc.
Did Ya put "what" to dialogue, or to ..?.
If Your dealing in Truth n LOVE -He said that Eve was ruling on the Divine Counsel. Do We Not see a serious Problem with Woman Ruling On The Divine Counsel (this is Not the role of Women, ever -in Holy Script.)
See what im getting at here -role reversal and some elevation role (in Authority)
It's gonna be Shalom awesome to see all the reformed calvinists begin to migrate back to pagan worship. One or 2 generations from now they'll be building temples to creatures. Shalom.
So, Michael is JESUS!?!
Tell me more, from this view
@@CHRISTSlave7 For the record, I’m not convinced.
If the nephilim were abhorant because they mixed heaven and earth, why are we so set on the idea that the 2 places of heaven and earth must become 1 place in the future, especially when there are ZERO scriptures that support this idea? Jesus said "on earth as it is heaven".
“as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.”
Ephesians 1:10
@tyc4587 ummm, this is not a good translation at all. Unite is not the right word. I looked at the interlinear and here are better ones:
Ephesians 1:10
[10]that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him. -NKJV
Ephesians 1:10
[10]with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him -NASB
10. in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him; -Young's Literal
@tyc4587 furthermore, this verse has nothing to do with combining the actual existences of Heaven and Earth into one new existence.
@@JR-rs5qs you seem unnaturally opposed to a very normal idea. Good luck out there
@@tyc4587 A very normal idea based on tradition, but not on Scripture. Scripture is the highest authority rather than 'normal ideas'. The Rapture is a very 'normal idea' today but it's absolute hogwash. I'm having a lot of luck out here. God is good and I'm understanding more of His Word than ever before.
Wow, the Branch Davidians moved to Georgetown.
I'm not familiar w/ the Davidian's teachings on the watchers or nephilim. Why do you make the connection?
Hello,
This topic and the like is going beyond what is written in the Scriptures. We also need to note that the Bible never makes these topics a great focus - why should we? Read all 4 Gospel accounts - what did Jesus preach, what was His focus? These topics are speculation and shifting focus from Jesus which can be spiritually dangerous, especially for people with sensitive imagination. These speculations can also be used by evil one to attack Christians and insinuate imaginations and thoughts/questions regarding their faith (fiery darts of the wicked one, MLJ has a good series of sermons on Ephesians 6). Let us focus on Jesus alone and not let the enemy of our souls any opportunity for attacks. Watch and pray, not to fall into temptation. Don’t be distracted by these topics while basics of our faith are ignored.
Someone was collecting marbles, then lost the all. Please help.
I was going along with you until you said Jesus is Michael. Wrong. No trust for you or what you say👎👎
There is no son of God of Chile...or Ukraine lol
In the Bible, we are warned about mythologies. The definition of mythology is that it is false. We start with the biblical text, not with myths. The Bible does not say the Watchers gave a decree to the king. The king said it was a Watcher in his dream who gave a decree and a few verses later, Daniel corrects him and says the decree is from God. These men are reading into the text what has fascinated them but it takes away from God and the Bible.
Itching ears.
From stuff like this, to people obsessing about the rapture and being taken away and ignoring all the Church's work that has YET to be done before that, it just seems ppl want to find escapism at all costs, in everything.
Can you mention where in the Bible warns about mythology
@@yourhighness8105 anything that distracts from God is an idol. An unhealthy obsession with mythology is definitely an idol. The Bible warns against idolatry. That's the general idea. Obviously, more mature Christians can handle (some) mythology especially if they're involved in apologetics and witnessing to unsaved people who hold to those mythologies. But the danger is there nonetheless.
@@spechund7109 I think you should listen to what the divine council is all about before making assumptions. It totally aligns with the bible and there is nothing mythical to it or whatever you want to presume
Most scholars would rather see Jesus as the personification of the Angel Of the Lord, consistent with the Two Powers in Heaven theory that posits that the angels of the Lord is God
Israel, speaking of bad faith actors
Ignoring Romans 16:20...guys, Satan has already been defeated. People sin all on their own without satan and demons. Joel is definitely still a charismatic. Lol
Divine Counsel theology is always too speculative for me. I’m willing to concede that there is something compelling about it, but is always in the obscure corners of Scripture. I think this is what Paul is warning about in Colossians.
So you’re going to put it behind a paywall because Christians aren’t ready for it? How are they going to be ready for it if they don’t hear it. Doesn’t sound like you have much confidence in your position. Or perhaps it’s a money grab. I don’t think that’s the case but the reason you gave isn’t a compelling argument
I know this fascinates ppl, but this isn't what God wants us to focus on. Knowing this stuff won't help with salvation. Plus, it takes the focus off the Great Commission and the Church's role on Earth. You don't need to understand how an engine was made to drive a car. That's even assuming everything he's teaching here is even accurate (a Big if)
It's probably to avoid getting the channel taken down.
I’m sorry you’re saying God doesn’t want us to know what’s in the word? You’re also saying we should only focus on salvation? The only book in the Bible with a blessing is Revelation and it is instructs us to watch and prepare ourselves. I would say the entire Bible is given to us for instruction.
@@darrinjones6093 I read the Bible, including Revelations. The Bible doesn't go into detail including about the Nephilim, but some people are fascinated with trying to find out exactly who they are. Does knowing every single Nephilim help in your Christian walk? No it doesn't.
@@spechund7109 So we should just ignore it and not study it? It’s there for a reason. Hard topics in the Bible should not be forbidden and disregarded. We study many biblical issues where the depth of detail isn’t there and leaves open speculation. I would counter and say, perhaps with UFOs becoming much more prevalent in our modern culture that it’s good to know of about nephelim/council/spiritual realm so people aren’t deceived. I happen to believe we’re teed up for the great deception and knowing this information can be helpful. I’ve heard of many people finding salvation after finding the works of Heiser and others, this topic draws in a lot of nonbelievers. It can be made into a witnessing tool. Any Christian knows the atonement and resurrection is the most important and pivotal doctrine of our faith, but again we should study the entirety of the Bible in our walk, including lesser topics such as this.
NO WAY. This was pretty bad. Michael is Jesus? lol. Remember. Only very accurate rifles are interesting.
Does he say that, I've heard the name of Michael but to claim he's Jesus?
Hello @loganBrown, thanks for the tip off
Jesus returned in 70 AD like he promised his followers in Mathew 24 and Luke 23. The writings of Peter, Paul, and John all spoke to the imminency of this event. Jerusalem aka Mystery Babylon as well as the Beast system (Roman empire) were judged and destroyed at the culmination of this event. Jesus returned and set up His 1000 year kingdom and the evidence of this is the architecture and infrastructure that we have inherited from the period that we refer to as the Middle Ages. We are lied to about timelines, geography, actors, and parties. We are gaslit at every turn to the point that no history outside of Scripture can be 100% trusted. I pray that this ministry is interested in seeking truth and not just the final stop in a gatekeeping operation.