Funfact: people bring this up as if PM is retroactively hiring someone new after this whole Ringsang drama, in reality, that notice was put up in APRIL.
Limbus company is a weird weird weird game balance wise. I think that its less that the ids have gotten more powerful and more that when the game released PM kinda had no idea what the game would look like in motion. Like on release all passives were resonance, the max percent chance to roll heads was only 70, and Offensive level was completely different. Like I think one of the funniest examples was uptie 3 BL sinclair rolling lower than his base id (seriously it was a 9). And then season 2 had that wonky sanity change that was then walked back even though it feels like IDs like Foxcliff were balanced with that in mind… with season 3 finally feeling like the core nature of the game wasn’t being shaken and they knew what the game they were making ids for was going to be. Like the best 3 star ids at launch (Warp Don, Seven Ryoshu, Ting Tang Hong Lu, R corp heath and Ish) are still just as strong as they were at launch. The big issue that PM struggles with is feature creep, where over time the IDs gain more and more moving pieces that run the risk of breaking in both directions. But one compliment that I think should be said is that even when the IDs have been outshined… the weaker ones are still fun to use (although its another reason i wish desperately this game wasn’t a gacha so that the opportunity cost of investing in fun doesn’t come at the cost of investing in strong)
Yeah I agree overall. It does feel more like they learned and improved their designs. However that still means we got left a bunch of weaker IDs at game's launch when they were already designing the last few IDs probably. We'll see what they do with upties and all, but also if it wasn't a gacha making retroactive patches to balance out older IDs probably wouldn't be as much of an issue, but well it'd probably also be a completely different game in design. Also I'd argue top older IDs are still very strong, but I wouldn't put them (all) as the strongest ones anymore.
PM also jave been strugling a lot woth enemies. They want it to have somedificulty but not balls to the wall unless explicitly so (ricardo) You can see just after finishing canto 5, more and more enemies have MAX LV and a +5 to ALL skills, making them literally 5 level avobe the player BUT withouth any of it giving More SP by basic SP clash conditions. And this followed to canto 6 up to the last part that got NERFED, by literally 1 base power, and 3 offense level, but sill keping he Max LV status An interesting thing i notice recently. For Yi sang and Ish, they got auto Max level for their dungeon. Heathcliff DOSNT, and if he dies you LOSE. WTF was PM thinking this whole canto? Boss rush after boss rush, enemies with literall 45 sanity turn 2-3 making the first turn being repeated by RNG like Ralway 1. All enemies lowering SP even in clash lose. Josephine literally UNSTAGGERS and gain 20 SP. The more i look back on canto 6 the more looks to be maxe by a totally diferent director/team.
@@ericquiabazza2608 honestly, if the enemies ever reach 45 sp on turn 2 or 3 it's entirely your fault, the enemies won the clash because they had a higher offense level. what in the world were you thinking bringing in underleveled units and then complaining about the offense level difference? the level requirement exists for a reason, my friend.
adding onto this, every enemies that i have seen in canto 6 has a +0 or a +1 offense levels to most of their skills so i fail to comprehend how you were struggling friendo
@@ericquiabazza2608I am sorry but this is an actual skill issue, jose gets sanity after unstagger? bro, you have so many skill slots to rush her down PLUS she loses a shit ton of sanity after killing her goons. “Waaaah I don’t wanna level up my healthcliff!(please ignore the fact that all you have to do is click exp lux, click skip, click confirm, repeat until you got some tickets and then level him up. and if you are too lazy to even do that, you can just borrow a health id)” if a boss has 45 sanity by turn end 2 or 3, you are doing something wrong
@@olixx1213upties aren't made the same for better or for worse. Look at u4 nclair or chef ryoshu. This creates problems but the ability is there for them to bring old ids up yo speed but of course even when u4 came around some bad ids got awful u4 for no reason. And if they add u5, then you'll have to go through a filler u4 that adds nothing so you can get the actual relevant buffs
its funny you say that whilst uptie 4 was a complete failure in that objective. sloshing ishmael turned from garbage to garbage, base ids are still awful, wcorp don became stronger for no reason, 2* burn ids are still unusable, shi association ids are still bad, rb gregor, mariachi sinclair, zwei rodion etc
@@user-bg2il4xi3w Liu ryoshu is very much a good id, and her skill 3 is finally pretty decent due to uptie 4 While Liu mersault isn't good (like all mersault ids, and without regret), he's still usable. And they tried for Liu Gregor I guess, the rest got shafted tho Édit : also shi ids aren't bad, beside heathcliff
Its interesting how the power creep alqays get people talking about balancing, which caused Uptie 4 in the first place. Now, if we ever get an uptie 5 i would like it to be Lv determine, like get it for ID level 50, and perhap have uptie 4 that way dosnt mess up gamplay before this point. After all PM already put a level cap on ID determine by story progression. Having a boost yied both by story progression and resources will be still on the PM spirit of "all canon"
Gacha first fans, or people who haven't played Lob Corp or ruina I feel are poisoning the game a little. "It was strong with good team building" is literally the entirety of Ruina, but that was even worse. In limbus good team building rewards you with very easy fights, in Ruina, good team building awarded you POSSIBLE fights. I'm not trying to be elitist here and I know Gacha games are unique with how you have to gamble possibly real money for units, but I feel people need to engage their brain a bit more instead of complaining and review bombing because the new unit didn't obliterate everything in seconds. Throwing strong(er) IDs in a team and hitting winrate already works for pretty much everything except MDH.
tbh I really wanted for Pm do have the guts to nerf ids on launch (maybe update tos so that the first week or so after a new Id is released they can still alter up or down the power)
They could even roll back pulsl. As we have direct saved data of EACH pull. So rolling back any pull doing 24 to even 72 hours prior will be easy. And not really infringing in any scaming behavior as people could decide to pull again or for something else Heck, they could even put a quesion: wabt to roll back pulls or not? Y/N That will be a first
@@ericquiabazza2608 For my knowldge is the last 10 pulls (so a min of 10 to a max of 100) so they would have to tweak their code and data storage a bit (specially for wanted events where players can pull 200 on 1 go - me last walpurgis) but yeah great idea
@@ericquiabazza2608If they roll back pulls, it gives us one of two kinds of data: -Your pulls are rigged and you were meant to get the banner character from your 50 or something pulls. Now everyone knows that the rates are a scam and are actually rigged, meaning PM can get sued for this. -Your pulls are not rigged, you got lucky and that ID you earned from it is now being taken away from you. Good luck getting lucky in the banner again or in a future banner. See the problem as to why you can't just rollback that easily? If they even do so, they get setback a ton. It's not worth it.
@@ericquiabazza2608 Yeah, but them they would have a New problem, tread and shards, if you rolled 200 times for ID's, on the process you would have a ton of shards, and It probably would be pretty hard to keep track of them if you already spent it on another ID or in a uptie.
Since I don't pay a targeted price for any character in a gacha game I don't mind weakening or rebalancing, given that in cases of pm they can just roll it back.
Admittedly I do have some faith in them, but it still does bring a bit of concern longevity wise. All I can hope is that this game at least doesn’t keel over because of this, but only time can tell.
the issue is more noticable when you compare g greg, n faust, 7 outis, to ids like pequod heath and pirate greg, the ids i first mentioned were staples (besides the R heaths and W dons) during the early days while stuff like pirate gregor and Pequod heath who dwarf those ids in comparison, seem to be average power for todays standard. its when you look at those ids which s3 rolls a whole 12 at ut3 MAX while Pequod heath can roll a 20 at ut 3. UT4 helps it yeah but the conditionals for the older ids are hard at best to non existent (n faust). this is while peesquad heath can roll a 24 with a four coiner if you have just a few other purple skills in your set up, again, hes considered AVERAGE by todays standard, while those ids with 12 rolling skill 3's were GOOD back in the day. thats basically my issue with the balancing, and imo what you should have looked at BUFF G GREG KIMY HOONYYYYYY
I don't think people consider Pequod Heathcliff average? Average amongst like the S tier maybe... And honestly a lot of those good older IDs are still very solid, but, yeah, there is a lot of difference between S1 IDs and the ones we get these days
@@tuoritto it really is average of the average if you think about it tho 11 rolling s1 with 2 coins (I forgor) 16 rolling s2 with 3 coins (very average) 16 rolling s3 with 4 coins and up to 24 with conditionals Newer ids commonly roll 16 on s2 and s3 at base, s3’s of newer ids normally goes into the 20-25 range with conditionals, 26+ is above average. An s1 with 2 coins is the most common nowadays, an 11 roll is also average, the average being 11 or 12, 13+ is above average and 10- is below Ig only ‘good’ ids have 3 coiner s2’s, but if you look at any newly released ids, most have 3 coin skill 2’s, for example, ringsang, philipclair, butis, cpt ish and kimsault, p Heath is included in this Also a 4 coiner s3 is around the expected s3 coin amount, with butis, edgregor, cpt ish, ringsang and technically kimsault too Ids that don’t atleast come close to these coin numbers are considered anomalies (not that they are at all bad, just out of the AVERAGE these coin amounts are.) My point is here, this is the CURRENT average, this current day ‘average’ is wayyyyy above the old averages, being ~12-16 instead of ~16-25 nowadays I agree these ids are high tier, but with how many of them are being released, they have become the average. Highlighting ids like g Greg (considered the average for its time) and Pequod Heath (the average now via the things I outlined above) you can more clearly see how the average has crept up, pequod heath I do agree would be a very very good id if it was released back in the day, but current day it’s just the average (for 000s) With ids like w ryo, kimsault, ringsang, and Philipclair, these numbers can be raised once again if pm decides to continue on changing nothin, w ryo and kimsault put the possibility on the table that s2’s can roll 20+ numbers, smth before was only reserved for s3’s, 18 being the maximum like with tt Hong, ringsang and philipclair put the possibility that id skills can roll above 30/31 Again, they would normally be considered anomalies in the average just like w don and r Heath was back in the day, but again again, with the amount of ids being released like that, the average is being powercrept, to where pequod Heath is the average nowadays
@@chetar5075rolls by themselves aren't a good guide. Coin amounts and passive are also important to consider as well as offense level, bulk etc. Pequod heath is a very safe id, his rolls might be avergae at first glance but he gains both offense level and defense level when hit, he hits harder the lower his hp is with no cap other tham his own hp. His counter is among the best in the game unconditionally which also really helps his gameplay. He has really good bulk and an early stagger bar that can get removed in the first fight of railway/md so you don't have to worry about stagger for the rest of the fights. His rolls are balanced around this. They are a lie, he clashes better than you are led to believe due to offense level and he hits harder than you are led to believe due to offense level + damage increase from passive. When you think about it, he basically gains coin power in essence as he gets better clashes and better damage. Not to mention that he has the highest hp an id can have not counting kong lu's gimmick and egos like aedd that support his survaivavility even further. He is a swiss knife of an id. Bulky and strong and hits harder the more he tanks
?? I still use N Faust and Peq heath regularly. I agree that there’s a few Id like G Gregor but in general most are quite balanced around their own niche.
I think, that now every single 000 is good, even such ID's as Kurorodion and BL Sinclair now even if not is better than new, but can be pretty good in some teams - Kurorodion - bleed poise, giving absurdly big bleed potency with new ego and pretty good damage, BL Sinclair with BL meursault is good too, giving big damage with S3 and consistent poise. New units just looks hyped and has more interesting gimmicks, than old ones, but that doesn't mean, that old ID's are worthless, with some exeptions in 00 ID's, that being dead from the start and doesn't get anything like chef gregor, zwei Sinclair and etc
Lets not forget the old normal fight system where defensive skill where automatic and pass turn. "Too complicated" the smooth brains said. Tanks got so wreck by this hange, aggro adition barelly helps them.
I think the powercreep can be evened out with upties making older outdated id's better on par with the new ones. (at uptie 6 you will need to sell your soul to the limbus gods)
4:49 Wow, Puzzle and Dragons has fallen off. I remember when it was very high on top. A few years ago I was very addicted to the game and spend about 2k bucks in total on it. At some point I decided that it's enough and deleted my account. 11:49 I'm currently using two/three IDs from the left and four/five IDs from the right for status teams.
Well gachas and mobile games revenue come and goes with the content. And yeah better 00 are the ones that help sustaining an archetype or fulfilling a specific role rather than those being individually strong (cuz 000 are stronger individually already)
I kind of disagree with best 00 list of season 1 and 2. The holy trinity of 00 md2 are L Faust, Shi Don and Seven Ryoshu. They were the most reliable IDs to bring. They all get outclassed brutally by Cinq Outis but they still pull their weight against the other 00s. Not adding LCCB Ishmael is another weird choice. She was loved just for her fragile on season 1 and 2 and she is loved for rupture and tremor on season 3 and 4. There is no 00 that can actually do one of her jobs better than her. KK Hong Lu I still treat it as king of budget for newbie. It's absolutely still worthy train him to carry you up to canto 4 as uptie 3 and used ot as filler for 5 and 6. He is perfectly usable for md normal while building your teams. There is no as cheap ID that bring as much value. Overall most of newer 00 have better synergy which lead to more optimal and better teams but individually they aren't actually better. Missing half of their optimal team heavily worse them than the generalist of 00 of season 1 and 2. 000 is more interesting. Half of season3 and 4 are "support" role. Season 3 and 4 support role are better than 1 and 2 but season 1 and 2 dps role are still peak The interesting part about BL Sault is his strength is also his weakness. If you want to make BL Sault kit shine, you need to play some BL IDs and you need pride resonance. This can heavily hurt teambuilding. Currently we don't have enough IDs to make or problema but in the future, it may be the main reason to no use him. Pequod Cliff is another interesting discussion. On paper he is an amazing. He have a lot of traits that potentially can make him an absolute monster on railway. But the segmented railway with healing heavily screw his moment to shine. His chance to outperform R Cliff and Dieci Rodion never happen. While I can agree the new teams are much stronger than old teams. Outside of Ring Yi Sang, I still believe than season 1 and 2 have Ids that are individually stronger than the newest IDs.
Oh you're making a video on the game's animations? Please tell me I'm not the only one bothered by NFaust's S3 being layered incorrectly, with her nail behind her head instead of infront when she throws it.
For those who have never played a previous Project Moon games let me enlighten you a bit. Rng and Power creep are features. Seriously though old stuff will replace new stuff. And anything that isn’t replaced is either already broken (with or without synergy) or it supports new stuff.
Well not really. New equipment (EGO for LC or Pages for ruina) is made to be stronger as part of the progression systems of the game. It makes sense there that the more you progress in the game, the stronger the sutff you get. Most games give you better stuff later in their story to give you this sense of progression. However Limbus Company and gachas don't work like that, because the stuff you get is not linked to player's progression but randomness. So you can get Ring IDs before Canto 2 and G Corp Gregor after finishing Canto 6. What symbolizes progression in Limbus is Levels (classic one) and Upties most likely. And that concerns every ID, and those systems are made to be stronger the farther you get in the game (there in the game lifetime).
@@MagnetAlpha honestly it probably won’t stop but I am slightly worried about them not being able to nerf stuff since half of their balance in previous games was because they had early access players to be their play testers. But that aside they seem to be willing to evolve the end game and add new mechanics so who knows. But imo their issues with balance could be fixed if they had a better release schedule or at least release fewer ids per season. Either that or get more ppl
12:56 easiest left in my life. 2 (3 if evade block on Dieci Lu counts) characters from right are win rate gaming. Other IDs kinda cringe or diff to use and even if we use them in special team performing not that good or spend too much time for ramp up power or too RNG. While left pack of IDs is more stable and win rateable, except maybe Ninclair and King of speed in some cases, but still having lower issues then IDs on the right side. So 4.5/6 on left side. Btw, why not the Molar Outis, she is overall stronger than Faust.
I'm not sure if Molar Outis is stronger than Regret Faust, especially with passive. But she could have ended up here, it's just that I had to choose 6 among all IDs. But otherwise I see, it's true that left side might be somewhat easier to use individually overall. Thanks.
@@MagnetAlpha As for the comparison between Molar Outis and Regret Faust, this may not be very clear from the outside, but since MOutis is a discarding character, her real average damage, counting all possible skill rotations, is 300 damage, while RFaust has an ideal average rotation with multi-targeting 335-340 (all C2 and C3 on 2 enemy targets (MOutis ideal discard without passive gives 340, by the way)). Yes, if you look at the maximum potential, then RFaust has 560, while MOutis has 540, but I seriously doubt that with maximum tremor there will be several targets. In addition, MOtis also has a higher average clash power (RFaust with passive 16.83 vs MOutis 18.75 in the real case and 21 in the perfect). Yes, I know what RFaust can inflict: 1 Coin Drop and 1 Offense Level Down on s2, but this is good but not enough. And I don't understand why her passive must exist with the existence of Oufi Heathcliff. Because of diminishing offense and defense, her 6 temporary Defense Level Down sounds weak (5.3% damage after 25 defense level down from Tremor Decay). I see it only for +1-2 Clash Powers. They close, but if I don't need to clear multiple waves, I will prefer Molar Outis because she is a more stable.
@@Sir_AIonne Yeah I see your point and I agree overall. Both are close in the top spots anyway, and are more suited to different situations. However if I had to make a few arguments it'd first be that even if in theory you can get only s2 and 3 with Outis (because discard is broken I won't deny this) In practice you still have to use a few S1s. But more than that, getting the conditions for full power S3 in one rotation is extremely rare, so you'd need one more skill rotation, slot or luck for this, otherwise you will miss it at least the first time, maybe 1 out of 2 times. And you can't just keep it in the bottom part. Also Regret Faust passive is kinda mediocre compared to decay or even fracture sure, but it's a field passive with barely any conditions, and even if it's weaker I'm not considering opportunity cost, and it can just be added on top of them (especially fracture with Outis Binds).
@@MagnetAlpha In practice, you can restart a stage if you need the perfect skill rotation. Thanks for the reminder, I rechecked and fixed my medium discard calculation so S1 will be used in the base 6 skills rotation with an average 17.62(6)% chance or 0.96 use of S1. So this reduces damage in the average rotation of Molar Outis to 287 and the average clash to 18.47 About S3, yep, sadly, but the chance for first usage with a coin boost with 1 slot will be only 13.(3)%+6.(6)% with some kind of controllable 50/50 from the next 6 skills. So after some rethinking, I suppose this kind of equalizes them in terms of power.
I always wonder why people say that Philclair was 'weak' or 'that you only need to get good at making teams for him to not be bad'. That wasn't the problem at all. Philclair before his buffs played exactly like a negative coin ID, with all of the downsides of a negative coin ID, but without any of the upsides of a negative coin ID. There were some fights where he couldn't access his ego state at all, no matter what you did, and he has terrible clashing numbers without his passive being active. People can say "Just make a good wrath res team", this doesn't solve the issue that was an incredibly unreliable ID, because he always had to clash to regain sp, with numbers that aren't great for clashing, and didn't even have an option to do a one-sided attack without burning his sp in the process. He wasn't hard to use at all. He just wasn't a good ID to use. Not hard, just not good or fun to use.
representation emitter, fluid sac, Ya Śūnyatā Tad Rūpam, blind obsession, holiday, sunshower, bygone days, frivolous jokes, information neutralization, whispers, do not fear, captain of the pequod, and probably more. tl;dr; you're wrong.
@@ihave2cowsright, because burning through all of your resources and other sinners' sp just to make phillipclair usable is obviously the way he should've been balanced, nevermind the fact that you always had to chain 3 wrath res to even get his passive (which he himself doesn't help much in activating). And if we only count sp healing passives more often than not he was consuming more than he was gaining because you want him to get more than 1 slot to maximize his usage
@@ihave2cows that's putting it lighly, the tradeoff is losing all my sp just so that i can clash properly (without philipclair's passive he clashes about as well as season 1 00 id's) and the condition is that i'm locked out of half of my slots because i want to activate his passive, and if i'm running n faust's passive then i'm forced to chain 3 wrath res and 3 lust res all the time. When you have to go through so much trouble to make a single id usable it's no wonder people were dissapointed, yeah when he got going he was strong but not strong enough to justify having to go through conditions upon conditions to get him there, he was underwhelming, same reason people don't bother with sunshower heathcliff
@@Schiso13 look, I listed a plethora of not only egos, but support passives and even a defensive skill that increases sp. realistically, you only needed a couple of them to make him work, the most reliable ones being what you get from having lcb yi sang and Hong Lu benched giving him, what, 18 more sp at the start of each turn? It takes 3 turns for him to lose 15sp per turn, 4 for 20. He gets a minimum of 15 sanity back for winning a clash with his s2, which offsets to minimum a net gain of 5. Realistically he’s probably getting 18 or 20. There are tons of ways to get his sanity high pretty quickly, and it’s not like using fluid sac is a waste of your resources to begin with, so that’s one problem easily dealt with. As for the resonance; everyone of the burn ids has a wrath skill, most of the good ones have a wrath defensive skill. He’s a burn id, it really shouldn’t be that hard to activate his passive on the team he belongs in. You won’t be able to get it every turn without proper planning or ego usage, but that’s fine, that’s part of playing the game. As for not getting proper rewards? He has an s1 that hits above 20 on one-sided attacks, his s2 is a *3 target aoe* that can inflict *6 burn count* and clash with a 20, hitting up to 23 after the clash over 3 coins. That’s insane, no other s2 hits that many targets with that high of a number on that many coins. Not to mention, aoe burn count is something that really helps burn teams out. His s3 is a beast at clashing and a nuke for damage. It might not hit as hard as to claim their bones (when you manage to get the thing to actually lose a clash) but you can still get the thing to easily deal over 200 damage if you’re not hitting resistances. It’s disingenuous to imply that the rewards aren’t good. All that being said; him getting his sanity costs dialed back by 10 is whatever for me. Fine. The walpurgis unit becomes a bit more consistently powerful without requiring the player to put thought into his backrow, at least he still benefits from players that have the capacity to do that. What really grinds my gears is the wrath resonance change. That was overboard. There is nothing you can say to convince me he needed both changes. Right now, resonance chaining one of the only parts of the moment to moment gameplay that requires thought due to the management involved. It adds a level of interaction that can’t just be ignored by pressing the funny winrate button. By removing that, you’re removing difficulty. By removing difficulty, you’re removing engagement. Pressing the funny winrate button is the same as resigning yourself to watching a 30 second cutscene each turn, and say what you want about it being a choice, but even if I ignore the button it makes the game worse knowing that any effort I put into planning was unnecessary. Owning 5 wrath resources is *nothing* by comparison on a burn team.
the most simple fix for this is to add higher rarity tiers, so we dont end up with meastro ids that are underwhelming or too strong, i mean no body would want a ring student id to be as strong as a meastro id that is in lore multiple times stronger, so making them rarer works even tho its kind of a bandade fix. the way pm could counteract making fights too hard is to make more difficulty options harder fights with higher rewards with easier fights with worse rewards (even tho the game is still really easy right now)
![[Limbus Company] Poise On A Budget](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/fldXOBIKh3Q/mqdefault.jpg)
![PASULOL รามเกียรติ์ ตอนที่ 4 นนทกพบรัก [Ramakien Ep.4: Nonthok in love]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tMUQgmZzf_A/mqdefault.jpg)
![[Limbus Company] Coins & Clashes: System Analysis and IDs ranking](/img/n.gif)
Fun Fact, PM is hiring people right now for the balance team, yeah I know crazy right?
Source?
Funfact: people bring this up as if PM is retroactively hiring someone new after this whole Ringsang drama, in reality, that notice was put up in APRIL.
@@Drako4177 Korean job site called gamejob
Limbus company is a weird weird weird game balance wise. I think that its less that the ids have gotten more powerful and more that when the game released PM kinda had no idea what the game would look like in motion. Like on release all passives were resonance, the max percent chance to roll heads was only 70, and Offensive level was completely different. Like I think one of the funniest examples was uptie 3 BL sinclair rolling lower than his base id (seriously it was a 9). And then season 2 had that wonky sanity change that was then walked back even though it feels like IDs like Foxcliff were balanced with that in mind… with season 3 finally feeling like the core nature of the game wasn’t being shaken and they knew what the game they were making ids for was going to be. Like the best 3 star ids at launch (Warp Don, Seven Ryoshu, Ting Tang Hong Lu, R corp heath and Ish) are still just as strong as they were at launch. The big issue that PM struggles with is feature creep, where over time the IDs gain more and more moving pieces that run the risk of breaking in both directions. But one compliment that I think should be said is that even when the IDs have been outshined… the weaker ones are still fun to use (although its another reason i wish desperately this game wasn’t a gacha so that the opportunity cost of investing in fun doesn’t come at
the cost of investing in strong)
Yeah I agree overall. It does feel more like they learned and improved their designs. However that still means we got left a bunch of weaker IDs at game's launch when they were already designing the last few IDs probably. We'll see what they do with upties and all, but also if it wasn't a gacha making retroactive patches to balance out older IDs probably wouldn't be as much of an issue, but well it'd probably also be a completely different game in design.
Also I'd argue top older IDs are still very strong, but I wouldn't put them (all) as the strongest ones anymore.
PM also jave been strugling a lot woth enemies.
They want it to have somedificulty but not balls to the wall unless explicitly so (ricardo)
You can see just after finishing canto 5, more and more enemies have MAX LV and a +5 to ALL skills, making them literally 5 level avobe the player BUT withouth any of it giving More SP by basic SP clash conditions.
And this followed to canto 6 up to the last part that got NERFED, by literally 1 base power, and 3 offense level, but sill keping he Max LV status
An interesting thing i notice recently.
For Yi sang and Ish, they got auto Max level for their dungeon.
Heathcliff DOSNT, and if he dies you LOSE.
WTF was PM thinking this whole canto?
Boss rush after boss rush, enemies with literall 45 sanity turn 2-3 making the first turn being repeated by RNG like Ralway 1.
All enemies lowering SP even in clash lose.
Josephine literally UNSTAGGERS and gain 20 SP.
The more i look back on canto 6 the more looks to be maxe by a totally diferent director/team.
@@ericquiabazza2608 honestly, if the enemies ever reach 45 sp on turn 2 or 3 it's entirely your fault, the enemies won the clash because they had a higher offense level. what in the world were you thinking bringing in underleveled units and then complaining about the offense level difference? the level requirement exists for a reason, my friend.
adding onto this, every enemies that i have seen in canto 6 has a +0 or a +1 offense levels to most of their skills so i fail to comprehend how you were struggling friendo
@@ericquiabazza2608I am sorry but this is an actual skill issue, jose gets sanity after unstagger? bro, you have so many skill slots to rush her down PLUS she loses a shit ton of sanity after killing her goons. “Waaaah I don’t wanna level up my healthcliff!(please ignore the fact that all you have to do is click exp lux, click skip, click confirm, repeat until you got some tickets and then level him up. and if you are too lazy to even do that, you can just borrow a health id)” if a boss has 45 sanity by turn end 2 or 3, you are doing something wrong
LC is unique in that they can uptie or threadspin to bring weaker ids and egos up to the level of stronger IDs and egos.
Well yes and no
Stronger ids also get the same amount of uptie
So when a New uptie is added is when limbus can completly flip the meta around
@@olixx1213upties aren't made the same for better or for worse. Look at u4 nclair or chef ryoshu.
This creates problems but the ability is there for them to bring old ids up yo speed but of course even when u4 came around some bad ids got awful u4 for no reason.
And if they add u5, then you'll have to go through a filler u4 that adds nothing so you can get the actual relevant buffs
its funny you say that whilst uptie 4 was a complete failure in that objective.
sloshing ishmael turned from garbage to garbage, base ids are still awful, wcorp don became stronger for no reason, 2* burn ids are still unusable, shi association ids are still bad, rb gregor, mariachi sinclair, zwei rodion etc
@@user-bg2il4xi3w do not trash talk my queen shi ishmael 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️
@@user-bg2il4xi3w Liu ryoshu is very much a good id, and her skill 3 is finally pretty decent due to uptie 4
While Liu mersault isn't good (like all mersault ids, and without regret), he's still usable.
And they tried for Liu Gregor I guess, the rest got shafted tho
Édit : also shi ids aren't bad, beside heathcliff
I mean pm are trying to hire new people for these kinds of things
Its interesting how the power creep alqays get people talking about balancing, which caused Uptie 4 in the first place.
Now, if we ever get an uptie 5 i would like it to be Lv determine, like get it for ID level 50, and perhap have uptie 4 that way dosnt mess up gamplay before this point.
After all PM already put a level cap on ID determine by story progression.
Having a boost yied both by story progression and resources will be still on the PM spirit of "all canon"
Gacha first fans, or people who haven't played Lob Corp or ruina I feel are poisoning the game a little. "It was strong with good team building" is literally the entirety of Ruina, but that was even worse.
In limbus good team building rewards you with very easy fights, in Ruina, good team building awarded you POSSIBLE fights.
I'm not trying to be elitist here and I know Gacha games are unique with how you have to gamble possibly real money for units, but I feel people need to engage their brain a bit more instead of complaining and review bombing because the new unit didn't obliterate everything in seconds.
Throwing strong(er) IDs in a team and hitting winrate already works for pretty much everything except MDH.
tbh I really wanted for Pm do have the guts to nerf ids on launch (maybe update tos so that the first week or so after a new Id is released they can still alter up or down the power)
They could even roll back pulsl.
As we have direct saved data of EACH pull.
So rolling back any pull doing 24 to even 72 hours prior will be easy.
And not really infringing in any scaming behavior as people could decide to pull again or for something else
Heck, they could even put a quesion: wabt to roll back pulls or not? Y/N
That will be a first
@@ericquiabazza2608 For my knowldge is the last 10 pulls (so a min of 10 to a max of 100) so they would have to tweak their code and data storage a bit (specially for wanted events where players can pull 200 on 1 go - me last walpurgis) but yeah great idea
@@ericquiabazza2608If they roll back pulls, it gives us one of two kinds of data:
-Your pulls are rigged and you were meant to get the banner character from your 50 or something pulls. Now everyone knows that the rates are a scam and are actually rigged, meaning PM can get sued for this.
-Your pulls are not rigged, you got lucky and that ID you earned from it is now being taken away from you. Good luck getting lucky in the banner again or in a future banner.
See the problem as to why you can't just rollback that easily? If they even do so, they get setback a ton. It's not worth it.
@@ericquiabazza2608 Yeah, but them they would have a New problem, tread and shards, if you rolled 200 times for ID's, on the process you would have a ton of shards, and It probably would be pretty hard to keep track of them if you already spent it on another ID or in a uptie.
Since I don't pay a targeted price for any character in a gacha game I don't mind weakening or rebalancing, given that in cases of pm they can just roll it back.
maybe there arent gona be weekly ids and egos anymore (unless beginning of season story ids) because of fear of vertuning ids and egos
Admittedly I do have some faith in them, but it still does bring a bit of concern longevity wise.
All I can hope is that this game at least doesn’t keel over because of this, but only time can tell.
the issue is more noticable when you compare g greg, n faust, 7 outis, to ids like pequod heath and pirate greg, the ids i first mentioned were staples (besides the R heaths and W dons) during the early days while stuff like pirate gregor and Pequod heath who dwarf those ids in comparison, seem to be average power for todays standard. its when you look at those ids which s3 rolls a whole 12 at ut3 MAX while Pequod heath can roll a 20 at ut 3. UT4 helps it yeah but the conditionals for the older ids are hard at best to non existent (n faust). this is while peesquad heath can roll a 24 with a four coiner if you have just a few other purple skills in your set up, again, hes considered AVERAGE by todays standard, while those ids with 12 rolling skill 3's were GOOD back in the day.
thats basically my issue with the balancing, and imo what you should have looked at
BUFF G GREG KIMY HOONYYYYYY
I don't think people consider Pequod Heathcliff average? Average amongst like the S tier maybe...
And honestly a lot of those good older IDs are still very solid, but, yeah, there is a lot of difference between S1 IDs and the ones we get these days
@@tuoritto it really is average of the average if you think about it tho
11 rolling s1 with 2 coins (I forgor)
16 rolling s2 with 3 coins (very average)
16 rolling s3 with 4 coins and up to 24 with conditionals
Newer ids commonly roll 16 on s2 and s3 at base, s3’s of newer ids normally goes into the 20-25 range with conditionals, 26+ is above average.
An s1 with 2 coins is the most common nowadays, an 11 roll is also average, the average being 11 or 12, 13+ is above average and 10- is below
Ig only ‘good’ ids have 3 coiner s2’s, but if you look at any newly released ids, most have 3 coin skill 2’s, for example, ringsang, philipclair, butis, cpt ish and kimsault, p Heath is included in this
Also a 4 coiner s3 is around the expected s3 coin amount, with butis, edgregor, cpt ish, ringsang and technically kimsault too
Ids that don’t atleast come close to these coin numbers are considered anomalies (not that they are at all bad, just out of the AVERAGE these coin amounts are.)
My point is here, this is the CURRENT average, this current day ‘average’ is wayyyyy above the old averages, being ~12-16 instead of ~16-25 nowadays
I agree these ids are high tier, but with how many of them are being released, they have become the average.
Highlighting ids like g Greg (considered the average for its time) and Pequod Heath (the average now via the things I outlined above) you can more clearly see how the average has crept up, pequod heath I do agree would be a very very good id if it was released back in the day, but current day it’s just the average (for 000s)
With ids like w ryo, kimsault, ringsang, and Philipclair, these numbers can be raised once again if pm decides to continue on changing nothin, w ryo and kimsault put the possibility on the table that s2’s can roll 20+ numbers, smth before was only reserved for s3’s, 18 being the maximum like with tt Hong, ringsang and philipclair put the possibility that id skills can roll above 30/31
Again, they would normally be considered anomalies in the average just like w don and r Heath was back in the day, but again again, with the amount of ids being released like that, the average is being powercrept, to where pequod Heath is the average nowadays
@@chetar5075rolls by themselves aren't a good guide. Coin amounts and passive are also important to consider as well as offense level, bulk etc. Pequod heath is a very safe id, his rolls might be avergae at first glance but he gains both offense level and defense level when hit, he hits harder the lower his hp is with no cap other tham his own hp.
His counter is among the best in the game unconditionally which also really helps his gameplay. He has really good bulk and an early stagger bar that can get removed in the first fight of railway/md so you don't have to worry about stagger for the rest of the fights.
His rolls are balanced around this. They are a lie, he clashes better than you are led to believe due to offense level and he hits harder than you are led to believe due to offense level + damage increase from passive.
When you think about it, he basically gains coin power in essence as he gets better clashes and better damage.
Not to mention that he has the highest hp an id can have not counting kong lu's gimmick and egos like aedd that support his survaivavility even further. He is a swiss knife of an id. Bulky and strong and hits harder the more he tanks
?? I still use N Faust and Peq heath regularly. I agree that there’s a few Id like G Gregor but in general most are quite balanced around their own niche.
I think, that now every single 000 is good, even such ID's as Kurorodion and BL Sinclair now even if not is better than new, but can be pretty good in some teams - Kurorodion - bleed poise, giving absurdly big bleed potency with new ego and pretty good damage, BL Sinclair with BL meursault is good too, giving big damage with S3 and consistent poise. New units just looks hyped and has more interesting gimmicks, than old ones, but that doesn't mean, that old ID's are worthless, with some exeptions in 00 ID's, that being dead from the start and doesn't get anything like chef gregor, zwei Sinclair and etc
Can add purpose to old IDs giving them composition with the new unit's team building or new EGO that is fueled by their sins and expands their kit.
"balance issues" aka "waaah I want to just press winrate"
Lets not forget the old normal fight system where defensive skill where automatic and pass turn.
"Too complicated" the smooth brains said.
Tanks got so wreck by this hange, aggro adition barelly helps them.
@@ericquiabazza2608wait you mean defence skills used to work how they did back in ruina?!
@@lostgem8225 Yeah, until they changed it in RR1 because defense skills are being used as a discard-tech
I think the powercreep can be evened out with upties making older outdated id's better on par with the new ones. (at uptie 6 you will need to sell your soul to the limbus gods)
i paused 2 seconds before that exact point. damn.
4:49 Wow, Puzzle and Dragons has fallen off. I remember when it was very high on top. A few years ago I was very addicted to the game and spend about 2k bucks in total on it. At some point I decided that it's enough and deleted my account.
11:49 I'm currently using two/three IDs from the left and four/five IDs from the right for status teams.
Well gachas and mobile games revenue come and goes with the content.
And yeah better 00 are the ones that help sustaining an archetype or fulfilling a specific role rather than those being individually strong (cuz 000 are stronger individually already)
Still waiting for Lobotomy EGO: Nothing there/mimicry/red mist/kali, ryoshu...
I kind of disagree with best 00 list of season 1 and 2.
The holy trinity of 00 md2 are L Faust, Shi Don and Seven Ryoshu. They were the most reliable IDs to bring. They all get outclassed brutally by Cinq Outis but they still pull their weight against the other 00s.
Not adding LCCB Ishmael is another weird choice. She was loved just for her fragile on season 1 and 2 and she is loved for rupture and tremor on season 3 and 4. There is no 00 that can actually do one of her jobs better than her.
KK Hong Lu I still treat it as king of budget for newbie. It's absolutely still worthy train him to carry you up to canto 4 as uptie 3 and used ot as filler for 5 and 6. He is perfectly usable for md normal while building your teams. There is no as cheap ID that bring as much value.
Overall most of newer 00 have better synergy which lead to more optimal and better teams but individually they aren't actually better. Missing half of their optimal team heavily worse them than the generalist of 00 of season 1 and 2.
000 is more interesting.
Half of season3 and 4 are "support" role. Season 3 and 4 support role are better than 1 and 2 but season 1 and 2 dps role are still peak
The interesting part about BL Sault is his strength is also his weakness. If you want to make BL Sault kit shine, you need to play some BL IDs and you need pride resonance. This can heavily hurt teambuilding. Currently we don't have enough IDs to make or problema but in the future, it may be the main reason to no use him.
Pequod Cliff is another interesting discussion. On paper he is an amazing. He have a lot of traits that potentially can make him an absolute monster on railway. But the segmented railway with healing heavily screw his moment to shine. His chance to outperform R Cliff and Dieci Rodion never happen.
While I can agree the new teams are much stronger than old teams. Outside of Ring Yi Sang, I still believe than season 1 and 2 have Ids that are individually stronger than the newest IDs.
Oh you're making a video on the game's animations?
Please tell me I'm not the only one bothered by NFaust's S3 being layered incorrectly, with her nail behind her head instead of infront when she throws it.
For those who have never played a previous Project Moon games let me enlighten you a bit. Rng and Power creep are features.
Seriously though old stuff will replace new stuff. And anything that isn’t replaced is either already broken (with or without synergy) or it supports new stuff.
Well not really. New equipment (EGO for LC or Pages for ruina) is made to be stronger as part of the progression systems of the game. It makes sense there that the more you progress in the game, the stronger the sutff you get. Most games give you better stuff later in their story to give you this sense of progression. However Limbus Company and gachas don't work like that, because the stuff you get is not linked to player's progression but randomness. So you can get Ring IDs before Canto 2 and G Corp Gregor after finishing Canto 6. What symbolizes progression in Limbus is Levels (classic one) and Upties most likely. And that concerns every ID, and those systems are made to be stronger the farther you get in the game (there in the game lifetime).
@@MagnetAlpha I was making a half joke but yes you are correct.
@@2265Hello oops sorry, wasn't sure. But yeah PM tend to go a bit vertical in progression, so I'm a bit worried.
@@MagnetAlpha honestly it probably won’t stop but I am slightly worried about them not being able to nerf stuff since half of their balance in previous games was because they had early access players to be their play testers. But that aside they seem to be willing to evolve the end game and add new mechanics so who knows. But imo their issues with balance could be fixed if they had a better release schedule or at least release fewer ids per season. Either that or get more ppl
12:56 easiest left in my life.
2 (3 if evade block on Dieci Lu counts) characters from right are win rate gaming.
Other IDs kinda cringe or diff to use and even if we use them in special team performing not that good or spend too much time for ramp up power or too RNG.
While left pack of IDs is more stable and win rateable, except maybe Ninclair and King of speed in some cases, but still having lower issues then IDs on the right side. So 4.5/6 on left side.
Btw, why not the Molar Outis, she is overall stronger than Faust.
I'm not sure if Molar Outis is stronger than Regret Faust, especially with passive. But she could have ended up here, it's just that I had to choose 6 among all IDs.
But otherwise I see, it's true that left side might be somewhat easier to use individually overall. Thanks.
@@MagnetAlpha As for the comparison between Molar Outis and Regret Faust, this may not be very clear from the outside, but since MOutis is a discarding character, her real average damage, counting all possible skill rotations, is 300 damage, while RFaust has an ideal average rotation with multi-targeting 335-340 (all C2 and C3 on 2 enemy targets (MOutis ideal discard without passive gives 340, by the way)). Yes, if you look at the maximum potential, then RFaust has 560, while MOutis has 540, but I seriously doubt that with maximum tremor there will be several targets. In addition, MOtis also has a higher average clash power (RFaust with passive 16.83 vs MOutis 18.75 in the real case and 21 in the perfect). Yes, I know what RFaust can inflict: 1 Coin Drop and 1 Offense Level Down on s2, but this is good but not enough. And I don't understand why her passive must exist with the existence of Oufi Heathcliff. Because of diminishing offense and defense, her 6 temporary Defense Level Down sounds weak (5.3% damage after 25 defense level down from Tremor Decay). I see it only for +1-2 Clash Powers.
They close, but if I don't need to clear multiple waves, I will prefer Molar Outis because she is a more stable.
@@Sir_AIonne Yeah I see your point and I agree overall. Both are close in the top spots anyway, and are more suited to different situations. However if I had to make a few arguments it'd first be that even if in theory you can get only s2 and 3 with Outis (because discard is broken I won't deny this) In practice you still have to use a few S1s. But more than that, getting the conditions for full power S3 in one rotation is extremely rare, so you'd need one more skill rotation, slot or luck for this, otherwise you will miss it at least the first time, maybe 1 out of 2 times. And you can't just keep it in the bottom part. Also Regret Faust passive is kinda mediocre compared to decay or even fracture sure, but it's a field passive with barely any conditions, and even if it's weaker I'm not considering opportunity cost, and it can just be added on top of them (especially fracture with Outis Binds).
@@MagnetAlpha In practice, you can restart a stage if you need the perfect skill rotation. Thanks for the reminder, I rechecked and fixed my medium discard calculation so S1 will be used in the base 6 skills rotation with an average 17.62(6)% chance or 0.96 use of S1. So this reduces damage in the average rotation of Molar Outis to 287 and the average clash to 18.47
About S3, yep, sadly, but the chance for first usage with a coin boost with 1 slot will be only 13.(3)%+6.(6)% with some kind of controllable 50/50 from the next 6 skills.
So after some rethinking, I suppose this kind of equalizes them in terms of power.
The one with checkmark is scam bot btw don’t get your account scammed
Thanks for the heads up. I don't allow links in the comment section anyway but still hid it just in case.
I always wonder why people say that Philclair was 'weak' or 'that you only need to get good at making teams for him to not be bad'.
That wasn't the problem at all. Philclair before his buffs played exactly like a negative coin ID, with all of the downsides of a negative coin ID, but without any of the upsides of a negative coin ID. There were some fights where he couldn't access his ego state at all, no matter what you did, and he has terrible clashing numbers without his passive being active. People can say "Just make a good wrath res team", this doesn't solve the issue that was an incredibly unreliable ID, because he always had to clash to regain sp, with numbers that aren't great for clashing, and didn't even have an option to do a one-sided attack without burning his sp in the process.
He wasn't hard to use at all. He just wasn't a good ID to use. Not hard, just not good or fun to use.
representation emitter, fluid sac, Ya Śūnyatā Tad Rūpam, blind obsession, holiday, sunshower, bygone days, frivolous jokes, information neutralization, whispers, do not fear, captain of the pequod, and probably more.
tl;dr; you're wrong.
@@ihave2cowsright, because burning through all of your resources and other sinners' sp just to make phillipclair usable is obviously the way he should've been balanced, nevermind the fact that you always had to chain 3 wrath res to even get his passive (which he himself doesn't help much in activating). And if we only count sp healing passives more often than not he was consuming more than he was gaining because you want him to get more than 1 slot to maximize his usage
@@Schiso13 yes. Having trade offs and conditions is good for gameplay. But you won, so enjoy your “haha press winrate”
@@ihave2cows that's putting it lighly, the tradeoff is losing all my sp just so that i can clash properly (without philipclair's passive he clashes about as well as season 1 00 id's) and the condition is that i'm locked out of half of my slots because i want to activate his passive, and if i'm running n faust's passive then i'm forced to chain 3 wrath res and 3 lust res all the time.
When you have to go through so much trouble to make a single id usable it's no wonder people were dissapointed, yeah when he got going he was strong but not strong enough to justify having to go through conditions upon conditions to get him there, he was underwhelming, same reason people don't bother with sunshower heathcliff
@@Schiso13 look, I listed a plethora of not only egos, but support passives and even a defensive skill that increases sp. realistically, you only needed a couple of them to make him work, the most reliable ones being what you get from having lcb yi sang and Hong Lu benched giving him, what, 18 more sp at the start of each turn? It takes 3 turns for him to lose 15sp per turn, 4 for 20. He gets a minimum of 15 sanity back for winning a clash with his s2, which offsets to minimum a net gain of 5. Realistically he’s probably getting 18 or 20. There are tons of ways to get his sanity high pretty quickly, and it’s not like using fluid sac is a waste of your resources to begin with, so that’s one problem easily dealt with.
As for the resonance; everyone of the burn ids has a wrath skill, most of the good ones have a wrath defensive skill. He’s a burn id, it really shouldn’t be that hard to activate his passive on the team he belongs in. You won’t be able to get it every turn without proper planning or ego usage, but that’s fine, that’s part of playing the game.
As for not getting proper rewards? He has an s1 that hits above 20 on one-sided attacks, his s2 is a *3 target aoe* that can inflict *6 burn count* and clash with a 20, hitting up to 23 after the clash over 3 coins. That’s insane, no other s2 hits that many targets with that high of a number on that many coins. Not to mention, aoe burn count is something that really helps burn teams out. His s3 is a beast at clashing and a nuke for damage. It might not hit as hard as to claim their bones (when you manage to get the thing to actually lose a clash) but you can still get the thing to easily deal over 200 damage if you’re not hitting resistances. It’s disingenuous to imply that the rewards aren’t good.
All that being said; him getting his sanity costs dialed back by 10 is whatever for me. Fine. The walpurgis unit becomes a bit more consistently powerful without requiring the player to put thought into his backrow, at least he still benefits from players that have the capacity to do that. What really grinds my gears is the wrath resonance change. That was overboard. There is nothing you can say to convince me he needed both changes. Right now, resonance chaining one of the only parts of the moment to moment gameplay that requires thought due to the management involved. It adds a level of interaction that can’t just be ignored by pressing the funny winrate button. By removing that, you’re removing difficulty. By removing difficulty, you’re removing engagement. Pressing the funny winrate button is the same as resigning yourself to watching a 30 second cutscene each turn, and say what you want about it being a choice, but even if I ignore the button it makes the game worse knowing that any effort I put into planning was unnecessary. Owning 5 wrath resources is *nothing* by comparison on a burn team.
the most simple fix for this is to add higher rarity tiers, so we dont end up with meastro ids that are underwhelming or too strong, i mean no body would want a ring student id to be as strong as a meastro id that is in lore multiple times stronger, so making them rarer works even tho its kind of a bandade fix.
the way pm could counteract making fights too hard is to make more difficulty options harder fights with higher rewards with easier fights with worse rewards (even tho the game is still really easy right now)