The Trolley Problem
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- Is sacrificing one life to save the lives of many others the best possible outcome? Narrated by Harry Shearer. Scripted by Nigel Warburton.
Do you draw conclusions from how things are to think about how things should be? There might be a gap in your reasoning.
From the BBC Radio 4 series - A History of Ideas. www.bbc.co.uk/p...
A History of Ideas is a new radio series about big questions, with Melvyn Bragg chairing discussions about beauty, freedom and justice (among other things). www.bbc.co.uk/h...
This project was possible in partnership with The Open University www.open.edu/op...
and the animations were created by Cognitive.
Tokyo drift and get all 6. Make it 7 by jumping in front.
LMAO
I wonder if you know, how they live in Tokyo
hats off
@@justinkomninos608 r/woooosh
based
Who's here after watching the video of the toddler picking the guy on the first lane and placing him with the other five on the second lane and calmly run the train over the six people serving equality..
im here from quite the opposite, Nora instead put the other on with the 5 and went on the track that then had none
Me lol
no im watching the toddler that moves one to the track with five and goes on the empty track
Haha me
Communism
The alternative solution is to get the absolutely random dinosaur at :30 seconds to block the trolley.
Lol. I was also wondering what it was doing there
lmao
Holy fuck, how did I miss the dinosaur?!
It's Gertie the Dinosaur, one of the earliest animated films in keeping with the video's theme of silent film.
Patrick Clarkin its Diego Brando obviously
why is Charlie Chaplin working on the train in the first place?
Angelo G. Or the Three Stooges.
Or Laurel and Hardy... and why are we Harold Lloyd?
Jazzkeyboardist1: "another FINE mess" And the "narrator" is Max Sennet And the best option of diverting the train would have been in the hands of "Curly" and we know how that would turn out. So we also know that Stan Laurel would easily have pushed Olley (Oliver Hardy) over the bridge without knowing whether it would solve the problem or not. But is that Dino "Flintstone" and is everyone ignoring the fact that the car on the track is a "sleeper" and is not powered on its own so it really isn't a threat.
Respect the hustle
he just escaped prison
Here's what you do, walk away and pretend you never saw anything.
Albert Camus "The Fall" - the famous bridge dillema - or no dillema at all:-)
If sound hasn’t been invented then the only way to pin you there would be witnesses considering there aren’t any cameras or DNA technology
So option 1
I know who used to caboose. Parking lot.. now there's a shitload of brakes and bullshit to tend to and I am trying to learn English, not French. Bitch!
Pffft. Imagine that happening in the world of smart phones.
If they are on the middle of a railway line and they died is pure darwinism.
Then you should build/repair railroad remotely,right.
Hmmm
Good thing Darwinism is bullshit
I mean, they might be able to tell that the train is coming by the vibrations or noise. In which case, if they didn’t move that’s Darwinism in action.
And to any anti-evolution believers... trust me, Darwinism is a real thing, and if it causes you lot to die trying to prove it otherwise by, say, jumping off a bridge believing some invisible sky daddy will catch you... you’ve proved my point.
@@gryphonarthur-kiss5006 elaborate?
My school did a debate on this. One person said that he wouldn't do anything, and kill the 5 people. His reasoning was that if you do something, whether that's pulling a lever or pushing someone, you're killing someone intentionally, whether it's done directly, or indirectly. So choosing to do something would make you a murderer, even though pushing someone off a bridge sounds more like a murderer. I thought that his idea was understandable. After the debate, we talked about that this can be referred as a false dichotomy. This trolley problem is a good debate topic.
A fairly common argument. However, we must face the fact that, morally, doing nothing is just as consequential as doing something. If you fail to save the drowning man when you could easily do so, aren't you just as guilty as the guy who pushed him into the river? It's a difficult problem to think about.
Incidentally, as far as the Trolley Problem is concerned choosing to do something would not be 'murder' as you state; the law recognizes extreme mitigating circumstances. Oddly enough, you might be considered more liable to prosecution if you fail to act.
I'm glad to read that your teachers are facilitating this sort of debate with you; it's a very valuable thought experiment to experience.
@@ClarkKant1 To answer your first question: no. In addition, you'd have to risk your own life to save a drowning person.
To your second point, you're obviously wrong. Unless you have any cases which support this ridiculous assertion.
@@cockoffgewgle4993 so you're brain can't think of another hypothetical to combat your arguement? Wow sad. So bascailly you're saying you would slap a falling pot that would hurt you or your hand to save a baby that was about to be crushed because it's causing you to act. . . That's bascially the arguement. Even though you're already involved in the situation your friend is trying to falsely distance himself from responsibility even though both are equal in being responsible for those deaths. Inaction is still action. Bringing the law into this is pointless tbh. I understand because it will influence emotions and actions strongly. But either way your buddies point is really weak.
@@ClarkKant1Terrible analogy, saving or don't saving someone from drowning is different from the trolley problem, because the trolley problem is all about sacrificing a life for "the greater good or choosing to not do so", while this drowning situation is about saving or not saving someone without the cost of other lives. Different situation entirely.
@@funkyreapercat5280 You're missing the point. What I'm saying is that action and inaction can have similar consequences, and they're often morally equivalent. If you fail to act when you could have and someone dies, aren't you morally as responsible as someone who kills another person? Your choice caused a person's death. Getting tied up in numbers of people is a blind alley.
Of course, the real issue here is that the vast majority of people when they encounter the Trolley Problem can only think in two dimensions: they go on and on about "maybe I could jam a log into the tracks..." and totally miss the point of the problem. It's a thought-experiment, designed to make us confront the methods by which we arrive at moral decisions. We are led to believe that morality is black and white, right and wrong. The trolley problem forces us to re-evaluate that assumption, and then maybe think about other moral questions with a new perspective.
And on a related matter... the plural of 'life' is 'LIVES,' not 'lifes.' A small thing I know, but it speaks to credibility.
The Psychology behind this is that switching a lever makes the act of sacrificing one life for five indirect. Pushing the man however, requires touch directly with the one we are sacrificing, and that touch activates a different part of our brain responsible for dealing with emotions.
Swek Trek i dont see how it is indirect. You are pulling the fucking lever, youre killing that man.
No, you can't yell. God I hate people who make up a 3rd scenario with all my soul.
But yeah, I also would not intervene. The dilema is not a dilema at all: the guy alone hasn't done anything wrong. I don't see who gave me the right to kill him.
To me, it's the exact same scenario as this one: A car with 5 people is going to crash, has no brakes. You know if you push the guy next to you in front of the car you'll save the 5 people. Would you do that, just because 5>1? No, it's retarded.
I think people do not choose to push the man on the bridge because his life was not at risk at any point. it is similar to adding a new variable to an equation.Whereas the six workers on the track were always part of the situation
@@076657 You are still killing 5 people who have done nothing wrong, choosing not to do something it´s still a desition
Que Te Importa no, it’s not a decision. Since when a person who doesn’t work there is supposed to decide where trains go?
my perspective on the trolley problem is when the question is presented you were chosen as a (hero) that you need to save either 5 people or 1 but what you did not see is you are not a hero becuase it is a choice between you being a witness to an accident or you becoming a murderer. If you switch the leaver you would become a murderer because you are the reason why that single person died but when you do nothing and watch the five people die you just become a witness to an accident.
❤ Thank you
If they insist on standing on some rails while trains are still operating, there's nothing you can do about that. People are responsible for their own choices
(Natural Selection)
As you are responsible of your choices, so you switch or not?
Inaction is your choice too..
You didn't want to feel responsible? too bad. YOU ARE.
If a person doesn't have the same way of thinking as you, they won't feel responsible.
Now that I think about it, that is another way to look at it.
multitrackdrifting
and kill 6 for double points
BEST COMMENT OF 2K17 YOU MIGHT NOT SEE THIS BUT THIS IS GOD TIER THX YOU XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
No one really puts a heart here....
So you watched that video too
Guys - there was never any 'solution' to this problem! The point of the exercise is to make us think about the MORALITY of the situation. It's a MORAL dilemma, not a practical one. If your mind immediately goes to "maybe I can shout to them to get off the track!" you're missing the point, and should go check out the amusing cat videos. As members of any society we need to consider situations in which our actions, however well-meaning, have consequences: and we must weigh our moral choices in response to those situations (and in this we might treat action and inaction as equivalent). There isn't meant to be a 'solution' to this problem. It worries me that so many people, when confronted with a THOUGHT EXPERIMENT such as this, are unable to THINK about it and appreciate the moral complexity of the real world to which the example alludes.
Many of the commenters here seem to think that they must come up with a solution. These same people would no doubt propose stealing the cat from the box when Schrödinger isn't looking! Thought experiments seek to distill the essence of a problem, so that we can think about the ways in which we behave in the more complex world around us. For example, one of the interesting facets of the problem is that it forces us to consider notions of action versus inaction, and realize that in many situations, these two apparent opposites are morally equivalent. We make utilitarian decisions all the time - weighing the 'least harm' options. The Trolley Problem forces us to see those consequentialist decisions for what they frequently are: selfish, callous and arbitrary choices based on very little information and made with no real knowledge of what the ramifications might be.
Which is why people also fail to see how this problem is actually a real life problem too for autonomous cars. People want to act like there is a solution, but in reality, there is no truly desirable outcome, only an outcome with consequences and rewards.
It also comes into play with the Coronavirus. We have to ask ourselves, which group do we want to sacrifice, those that are at risk, or those that need to work. People will die in both situations, it's undeniable that you cannot save everyone, but who should we allow to die.
You sound like an incel
What would you do Kent?
Yes! Thank you! And honestly, some of the comments feel too "troll-like" in nature. Why must be the world seem filled with great idiocy?
dude thanks you saved my homework
There's a kid solve the problem, instead of switching the track, the kid put the one man along with 5 men, and the train kill them all
Psychopath in a nutshell xD
Population control!
But there is also a girl who fought not to kill anybody and so she was ready to throw herself before the train to save the others! And she has just 20 000 views...
im sure others said the same thing but I'm not going to read a bunch of comments. However, I would do nothing. If I pull the switch, I am causing death. That makes me responsible and will land me jail time. If I do nothing, I am nothing but a witness to a terrible accident.
And then the thought of actively letting 5 people die by inactivity weighs on your conscious forever :]
PokeTsuna better than having big bubba make you his bitch in prison
whether that weighs more than manslaughter is debatable and dependent on perspective. In my opinions, I would rather feign ignorance than hold responsibility. That is, I would redirect the train, but deny rational though based on imminent threat and instinct.
@@MakeMakoGreatAgain much better than the thought of murdering someone to save others.
"Well obviously, the dillema is clear; how do you kill all 6 people?" -Michael from The Good Place
I wouldn't touch the switch, because then I have made an active choice to kill someone, valuing 5 lives over 1.
The lever really is no different from pushing the fat man, except you do it from a distance, but either way it is still your action that kills the single person.
If the people on the tracks are random strangers, how could you measure their lives worth?
For me the quantity is unimportant, it is my action or lack of action which is important.
*****
How is choosing to kill one over 5
or 5 over one a heroic act?
it could be if there were specifics, such as
"the one is a murderer, hated by everyone"
but this scenario isn't easy like that.
I guess there is no "moral" decision for me.
Because If I do something, the act will be immoral.
+Khaz Goroth But if you choose not to do something you are ignoring the act on your consent thereby you are letting 5 person die so yeah....Its not a heroic act to kill one over 5 but it is the logical one.
Ok so lets increase the number of lives at stake. How far are you willing to go? Are you similarly unqualified to make a value judgement on the lives of 20 people? 100? 1 million? Tell me when it becomes immoral to just stand there like a dunce and not pull that switch.
It never becomes immoral
Demi Urgos Well at least you are consistent
Another way to pose the trolley problem is this: would you be able to live knowing that you let 5 people die, or knowing that you're the cause of someone's death?
Edit: shit my bad english is showing i meant rather, not be able to, fuck.
I'd rather have the situation in which 1 people die because of my action than 5 people die because of my inaction
People hesitate to say "I'd push the fat guy" because it's significantly more personal than pulling a lever. When you pull the lever, it's almost as though you're being heroic. You saved 5 innocent people! But when you push an innocent person off a bridge in order to save 6 people, it's not the same. You feel more like a murderer and less like a hero. That innocent fat person had no involvement in working on the tracks at all. It feels harsher - pushing a person off a bridge. You killed someone with your own two hands.
bella alexander But if you pull the lever you killed the one man working there too. It maybe wouldn't feel that bad for some people because you saved 5 other lives. But if you push the fat guy off the bridge you would save the five people too. So it is the same. In both scenarios you are actively killing someone if you do it. In one case it maybe just feels different for you. But I would still feelthe guilt if I would pull the lever in the first scenario. So I wouldn't do them. Neither pulling the lever nor pushing him.
The fat guy would do nothing to stop the train... the train weight 100 tons, va 400 pounds..
You're actively killing 5 people by not pulling the lever.
@@Richard-gv3xk I am not killing, I am saving one who is not responsible for this whole situation.
@@DhruvPatel-zg1zs your inaction in a sense could be compared to a Nazi soldier at Auschwitz denying responsibility for the genocide of Jews because he didn't pull the gas lever. Your inaction to save 5 people does not obsolve you of their deaths. An action you could have taken would have saved them. You actively let the train run over 5 people by deciding not to pull a lever, or actively let the train run over 1 person by pulling the lever. No scenario plays out in your favour, it's a loose loose. Just in one scenario it's your Conscious that you are also attempting to save but that scenario leads to more deaths.
Thanks for the explanation, Principal Skinner!
LMAO
Had to scroll way too far to find this comment
I wonder if the reason is because when you are pulling a lever, it’s different to PUSHING someone down to their deaths. Pulling a simple lever doesn’t feel as if you are doing something immediately wrong at the time and usually doesn’t make you think of what you are doing at first, maybe leaving the horrible guilt and realisation of what you have done for the end.
these comments are extremely interesting. this is the first time i've ever agreed with so many opposing views at once.
I don't pull the lever because I don't have the right to determine who is more valuable. It isn't my place to choose one life over another.
But you are determining that the 5 people is less valuable than that one. If you are not judging which life is more valuable then they should all be equally as valuable. You’re essentially determining those 5 people to be less or equally valuable to 1
@@wavez4224 i don't argue all lives are equal. But even if they aren't I don't have a right to choose if one life is more important than 5 others. I can't know the intricacy's of every persons life and therefore cannot weigh them.
My solution: Yell as loud as you can to the five people then go full speed towards them , They might live if they're fast enough
Check if the single person is aware of the situation. If they are, pull the lever: They have a better chance of running away on time than the 5 people who have no clue (If they had a clue they would have ran already)
I honestly have no idea how I would react of this actually were to happen. Probably freeze up in fear (telling myself to do something) and regret not doing anything for the rest of my life. Because I don't handle myself well under pressure, if I'm being honest. However, I would like to think that since the track with only one person is closer to me, he would have a better chance of hearing me when I yell "GET OFF THE TRACK" and then pull the lever. But then again, there are many flaws in this plan. I don't know what I'd do if the tracks were reversed and the 5 people were closer. Honestly I really don't know so I probably shouldn't be commenting.
There is no saving everyone. In order for this to be a dilemma, someone must die...
Hint: What do you do after you’ve wronged someone?
I think by touching the Lever no matter the situation, is failing the test .I think the true test is To Let nature run its course It's wrong for us to decide where to direct what is the natural , who are we to dictate who lives and dies that is not our right . Its always the Human reaction to want to change/have some control over what we think is right and wrong or the dosage of death we or others can handle , we measure Our value in Death and that is as unatural as pulling the lever . Life isn't about what you deserve it's a collective Experience shared by all forms of life no matter our decisions or walks of life .4 example Killing someone is killing apart of yourself .
Me personally, imma travel at light speed and bring that one person to the 5 dudes, run a train on all if them😀😀😀
there's so many wrong things with your comment lmao.
A runaway train is heading towards five workers on a railway line. There is no way of warning. But your standing near a lever that operates the points. Switch the points and the train goes down the spur. trouble is there's another worker on that bit of track too. but it is one fatality instead of five. should you do that. Many people think the right thing to would be to switch the points. to sacrifice one to save five. since that produces the best outcome possible. now imagine the train heading to the workers again. this time it can only be stopped by pushing a very large man of a bridge. his great balk would stop the train. but he died. should you do that. most people say no. but why not. both thought experiments are cases of sacrificing one to save five. what the trolley problem examines is whether moral decisions are simply about outcomes or about the manner in which you achieve them. some utilitarians argued that the two cases are not importantly different from each other both have similar consequences. consequences are all that really matter. each case one person dies and five are saved. the best option in each harrowing situation. but lots of people say they would switch the points but they wouldn't push the man of the bridge. are they simply inconsistent or are they onto something.
Yeah I too don't understand this inconsistency
We all HAVE to die anyways.
I don't understand why would it be acceptable to save 5 over 1 when you don't directly know or have any relationship with any of them all.
I mean, since death is inevitable why should I sacrifice 1 person whom I don't know to save 5 more whom I don't know as well???
The trolley is already directed at THEM. Not at the single guy.
I find it SO stupid to even think that saving those who are already supposed to die, by altering the course of events and sacrificing one is a smart move let alone a morally better option, if you have no connections whatsoever with none of them.
The concept of many and all is something so dislocated from your direct knowledge that so called "everybody", "many", or "all" literally equals NOBODY.
The workers will know the train is coming hence they will move out of the way by themselves. People are smart.
I wouldn’t do anything that makes me less responsible in responding to one person's family if I save five people, and later on, those five I save could do something terrible, which I will be responsible for it as well since they were meant to die.
why were they meant to die? for working?
0:17 'you can't shout because sound hasn't been invented yet'
THAT'S NOT HOW ANY OF THIS WORKS
I also noticed that
I don't get your point. When gravity wasn't ' invented ' , everyone was just floating in air , right...?
he better said that all are deaf
I believe this was a joke related to the fact that many of the famous people depicted in the animation are from the silent film era.
Heck, no way am I killing Charlie Chaplin. As far as the others are concerned, off with their heads!
If the trolley doesn't see the people and it plans on going forward, it probably has a greater speed than if it was going to turn. And the average person has limited knowledge of train tracks or switches. So pulling the lever could potentially derail the trolley, in which case one might not only injure/kill the initial 5 victims but also some of the passengers on the trolley or even other passengers not on the track. Don't get involved if the problem might require knowledge you don't possess. You may only make things worse.
I asked my dad this question and myself. Both our choices was don’t push the man off, and the train will kill the single dude. My reasoning was that it has nothing to do with me and best outcome. My dad’s was that we don’t value them as people at that point, we value them as lives. 4 lives win over 1 and involving the man from the bridge would be in the same outcome of killing only 1 person, just that we’d be murderers in that case
The juxtaposition in your answers is interesting! One little thing though, the train would kill 5 people if you didn't push the man
You would a murderer in both cases. You switched it and that person died because of your action. Saving lives cannot justify you from killing people
@@daviddong9916 …which is why some say they'd do nothing, because regardless of what you do in this situation, you're a murderer - thus not _doing_ anything preserves one's own _personal_ morality.
What some people don't realize is that a person's inaction IS action. Simply standing there knowing you could have saved the 5 lives is just as bad as pulling the lever if the number of people on the two tracks were switched.
killing someone by inaction is... better in my view than killing someone by action
killing 5 people isnt worse than killing one
lorderik237 EXACTLY. Not pulling the lever is as much an active decision as is deciding to pull it.
what's worse? standing by whilst someone drowns someone or being the person drowning that someone?
you could easily help people in third world countries, does the fact that you don't mean you're a murderer? i would say not
Your drowning example has a totally different structure to the trolley problem hence you can't apply the same logic to it. Lorderick237 is responding to the problem from a utilitarianist perspective - since it is a problem of ethics. This is obviously far above you.
it's not that different
either you kill someone or you let people die, exactly like in my scenario
one life isn't worth less than five
Surely they could hear the train coming.
Why don't they just...get out the way?
Deaf
“Would you push the man off the bridge”
Me: looks like your going to the shadow realm jimbo
Just act like you didn’t see anything and let nature take it’s course everything happens for a reason
Yep, if you push the man or pull the lever that's on you, if you just observe then is it really your fault, it's the rail companies problem.
@@cal5566 exactly, pulling the lever or pushing the man is involving yourself in a problem that was not created by you so why involve yourself
I think most people would choose to pull the lever because they can't help thinking of it as merely risking one life instead of five. After all you can't know for sure if they'll die until they die. While pushing the dude in front of the trolley is certainly murder or attempted murder
I pull the lever of train track towards the people who are wearing red coloured dress, so train stops by seeing colour red or colour white😉
Bro right
a train cant stop though..
Disturbed by the amount of people who overlook the fact that once you pull the lever you become a murderer.
Either option will result in death. Are you less of a murderer because you didn't switch the lever? If the deaths could have been prevented by your decision and you failed to decide, is that just as wrong? Is that still murder? Quite interesting for sure.
yeah if you're right beside the level not pulling it could be considered complacency where you basically murder 5 people by doing nothing.. not trying to weigh to either side... this problem is made to tickle all areas of the brain considering wtf is ethical
@@jesusantispray i wouldn’t pull the lever. Because not doing anything isn’t the same as actively killing someone. Judging the value of human life by using numbers I horrible in my opinion and makes us less human
@@jesusantispray you obviously do not know the definition of murder.
No you don't. It wouldn't be considered murder by any legitimate system of law.
Mr. Roger's Neighborhood Trolley taught me the trolley problem since childhood. Now, as an adult, I'm learning the trolley problem at a different level. :)
Did he really do an episode with the trolley problem, or are you joking? I loved Mr. Rogers and remember his awesome train layout/diorama very well, but my 2 to 4-year-old brain definitely couldn't comprehend this problem - and I was undoubtedly playing with my toys and/or eating while watching it. I'm curious now though; did he really do an example of this?
I think it would be morally wrong to get involved in both cases. The problem with utilitarianism (in my eyes) is that it fails to differentiate events happening naturally and human hand in things. If the train runs over the five workers it may be tragic, but no one can truly be said to be responsible, but as soon as you flip the switch you are directly responsible for killing the sixth worker. If you fail to see the difference between things unfolding naturally, and human action; imagine you're a hostage negotiator talking to a group of terrorists. The terrorists say they'll free five of the hostages if you give them a civilian. Would you consider it moral to put another innocent person in danger to save a greater number?
"Help ! A train is going to kill us !"
"What do you want from me ? I can only sing you a song !" (cit.)
Only for italians people😂
This guy sounds like the priest from the simpsons
It's a good thought experiment, but they would be a lot variables in a real life scenario. Workers can see the trolley coming, while you can't warn them there're others that might, pushing a large man in front of it might not stop the trolley.
My question is this: Do the five workers know that they can get hit by the trolley? If they are workers they should know to ONLY work on a track while it is not active or know when to look to move out of the way at least. Without this information, I'll assume they are negligent and say that they deserve the fate they get.
If they did not know (I.E: The track was scheduled to be inactive during that time), and I knew this at the time, then I would switch, as it is 5 > 1.
Best option, don't touch the switch..hope for the best.
I wouldn't push the large man off the bridge. I would pull the lever to save the group of people and hope that the single man would have enough time (since he's further down the track) to move out of the way. Now if I was the person on the bridge, and my ex boyfriend was the man standing next to me, I may decide to push him off the bridge into the path of the train for the "greater good of all mankind" 😂 (Completely kidding btw, I hope my ex prospers in life and achieves all his goals)
I believe I have an answer to this... at least for why people will pull the lever and not push the fat man. When one pulls the lever, the immediate result is 5 people are saved. This can be called the "resulting action". The consequence of this is 1 person is killed, but this occurs after the resulting action, so it can be argued that this tragedy was not the responsibility of the operator, since he saved 5 lives FIRST. Furthermore, it can be argued that the railroad track and train are responsible for the death of one man, since the tracks were shaped towards him, and the train would not stop. This saturates the responsibility of the outcome more than just that of the operator. Now, when one pushes the fat man over the bridge, the resulting action is a murder. The consequence, which occurs AFTER the murder is that 6 people are saved. Since this occurred AFTER the murder though, the responsibility of the murder falls solely on the operator, not the railroad track, nor the train. I believe this is why the dilemma results are the way they are.
I think people wouldn't push the fat guy because that situation makes no sense. Imagine standing next to a guy whose body is large enough to stop a train, the bridge would collapse and he'd fall on the tracks by himself.
Also: The fat guy wasn't standing on the tracks, while all those others were already on the tracks and should've known the risks.
I bet that many people change their answer because, if this was a realistic scenario, the fallen man might not stop the trolley. So you have a chance of turning the death count from 5 to 6. If you redid the test with different wording, the answers might change. I'm sure that the point the "pushing" scenario was trying to measure is whether the pushing is seen as more intimate/evil/culpable/violent of an act than pulling a lever, but the question introduced a new variable (whether the trolley would really stop).
Another reason might be prison, you go to fckn jail for that shit
just get the dinosaur at 0:30
I think the trolley problem presupposes that the giant man's bulk is capable of stopping the train.
I agree with your reasoning that the wording needs changed to somehow pushing the man off the bridge would have the same level of certainty as flipping the switch. I’d assume I’d flip the switch; but, I may possibly also push the man off the bridge but only if I went with him so our combined size would further make certain the train stops. First, however, I’d try just yelling at all the people to get off the tracks.
People would rather pull a lever over pushing someone for the simple reason that the lever distanced themselves from the outcome: the death is farther away, and you would feel less guilt doing so.
This is the same reason we have internet fights at such a magnitude of animosity towards one another.
I would shout to the one worker to move out of the way and then pull the lever, Ez saved them all
but shout is not yet invented it says
The simple fact is that the one guy down the railway might just notice the train and run away - whereas if you would push a heavy guy off the bridge for the purpose of stopping the train you are making a sacrifice on purpose, essentially killing a man. It is more unlikely that he would be able to withstand the fall and not hurt himself so that he could get away from the train, further damning to your actions.
am i the only one catching the gertie the dinosaur reference/cameo.......
The clarity and depth of this content are impressive. A book with related subjects enriched my cognitive skills. "Game Theory and the Pursuit of Algorithmic Fairness" by Jack Frostwell
These days most people would just get their phone out and record what happens.
The trouble with this is that people automatically put themselves in that position and of course hesitate to choose pushing the fat guy for a number of reasons.
If the question was posed, but caveated with the fact that you could watch this video before the scenario and understand completely that the push would be successful, his bulk would stop the train and their would be no legal ramifications for you, then a lot more people would be willing to push him.
What kind of psychological horror is this? My brain is fucked i need more of this.
Man... those illustrations using silent film era stars are spot on. I love it.
what if i leave the train alone?
if i do nothing, im not killing anyone.
if i switch, im actively killing someone. the same goes for pushing a fat dude off the bridge.
So you'd leave 5 people to die, knowing you could have saved them. Any result however, would weigh on your conscious so
nope if you do nothing you're passively killing 5 people. If you were in a position to switch the train and knew what would happen in both cases, then you're responsible for the lives of them because you made the choice whether to pull the lever or not.
I agree with the other guy tho. I hav no rite to decide who lives or dies, and wuld only make a decision if both group/groups are going to die if a decision is not made. therefore I wuld do nothing
I don't think so: The fault lies with the railroad company, not you.
Let's say a bank robber enters a building, and shoots someone, killing them. You happen to have a firearm yourself, but for whatever reason, you choose not to use it.
By choosing not to act, have you "killed" a person? No. The fault lies with the robber, and him alone. True, you could have saved their life, but your inaction did not kill them, the action of the robber did.
So it is with the railroad. Whomever let a train runaway and scheduled workers on that track the same day is the one who is to blame - not you.
peter291997 thinking about the problem in the fat dude scenario actually makes you realize what you were truly doing in the lever one: murder.
Bruh just switch the tracks and then switch them back so the train comes off the tracks.
Then everyone on the train dies... Is it better?
Antton Korhonen
They might survive
I think I'd let the trolley kill the 5 people. I get that saving 5 seems better than saving 1 but hear me out.
If you pull the lever then you'd be responsible for the death of that one guy. You made the choice of who dies. But if you do nothing, it might not necessarily mean that you chose the 5 people to die but rather that you just simply allowed the trolley to take its course. You would choose for the trolley to hit no one if you could but you can't. And so I would make no choice as choosing who lives and who dies is something I would never want to do. To me, murder is infinitely bad - if you're gonna scale it from 1 - 10 (good to bad), murder would be infinite. And so I equally don't want to kill 5 people just as much as I don't want to kill 1 person.
You might be adamant in thinking that I am responsible for the deaths of 5 people simply because I did nothing. In which case I'll ask you this: am I responsible for the lack of cure to cancer? I'm not doing anything to research it. I'm not studying any science or aiming to work a science-related job. Instead, I'm just sitting here at my computer, typing this comment out of boredom and curiosity.
Your cancer analogy doesn't really work since the effort required to cure cancer is very high and you have zero expectation of being successful. A better analogy would be if you already knew the cure for cancer and kept it to yourself.
I think you're wrong here since you have the option to save 5 lives but you're choosing not to. You'd rather sit back and watch as 5 lives are taken instead of taking action and only having one life taken.
I would push the guy and change the lever only if I knew beforehand that pushing the fat man would 100% save the lives of the five people. Some people have been saying utilitarianism is immoral because it treats an individual as a number that has only one value. The reason I would push the person AND pull the lever is because the likelihood of any one of the five people being a 'valued person' is higher than just the one person. You can never be sure who is a more 'valued person' but the likelihood that you saved a valued person is obviously higher if you save five people rather than one.
In all honesty I cannot be sure what I would do if faced with such a dilemma in REAL LIFE but I think the best solution is the one stated above provided I don't think over-instinctively and react irrationally due to stress.
+Anukrit Lamichhane I think your reasons are sound and make perfect sense.
Okay, would you still feel the same if that one person was your son, daughter, mother or father?
If they're standing on the rails, it's not your responsibility to begin with. You aren't letting them die; they're killing themselves.
You clearly didn't pay attention if that's all you got out of this
Well ye but that's why it's a problem to start with. People who say they'd let it hit five argue the rational that THEY aren't killing the five but they would be killing the one given that they'd be flicking a switch causing the train to hit him.
Okay, let's say a diabolical villain tied them all to the tracks and forced you to decide. That's essentially the position this thought experiment is meant to put you in.
And if there fixing the tracks??? hmm
Joe Lackey exactly
If you pull the lever, there's still a chance the single worker could get off the track in time, so you would save 5, but the lone worker may still survive.
But pushing someone off the bridge, you're dooming him to death.
Not the point. You missed it be a million miles.
There is a real story of a man raising a bridge, killing his son who was on it, to prevent a ferry from striking it.
Link?
Sounds like his son would have died either way. If you made the single person a family member it changes the scenario dramatically. Very few people would sacrifice someone they love for 5 strangers.
In any moral dilemma, it's important to think about your own morality, think about how YOU (not other people) would weigh the value of each subject. Only then you could see the right answer.
Ex: In this case: do nothing (a), save 1 & kill 5 (b), save 5 & kill 1 (c). Choose a, or b, or c. Skip to the end for a single sentence solution.
I (myself only) would experience a negative feeling much larger; when I choose (a), compared to all the consequences from individual (b), or (c). So, I (others may not) put (a) out of the equation.
Between (b), and (c). To be honest, in case all of them are strangers; I feel like killing 1 or 5 has no significant difference. But the thing that affects my decision is that compensating for 1 family is easier than 5. So, (c) death to the one guy this will be.
In the case of one fat guy, I would say "Even if the guy is replaced with a big rock, I still wouldn't push it." That is way too much "work" compared to compensating for up to 99 families.
If any of these people is a person that I value different, the answer may vary.
If you can end a day saying I do not regret it, I would say "you made the right choice".
For a more an in-depth look at the trolley problem: th-cam.com/video/SCYcC3lcjW8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=eWGT1ZsJIxmGFGwe
The answer is hope, if you pushed the man off the bridge he would have no chance to save himself if the directed the train towards the the guy on the track he would have a chance. Even if the outcome in this scenario is locked, hope still prevails
what do you mean by "they are on to something"??
If there are 5 workers on the railroad line, they should be able to at least hear the train or see it coming (at least one should). It wouldn't be hard for them to get off the rail (it takes like 2 or less seconds).
The video applies that we must choose between saving these people in a situation where they technically can save themselves if they realize what is going on (Hey, I hear/see a train coming, we should get off the rails and let it pass). A good worker is aware of their surroundings (through sight, smell, sound, etc).
We can try to save the 5 workers (or lone worker as well), but in the end it really comes down to whether or not THEY realized a train was coming down the railroad. (I understand the main idea of the scenario being brought up, but logically people are smarter than to just sit on the rails when a train is coming, even without a warning. 2 seconds is all it takes).
Possible solutions? Pull the lever, the train will go towards the 1 guy. Chances are the guy will hear/see the train and get out of the way. Everyone gets saved. (P.s, why even bother pushing off the big guy, let him do his own thing).
It saids on the video thar sound wasnt invented yet tho..
@@angels-haudenschild7791 Ah, yep, they did say that. (Which is an unrealistic scenario nonetheless, not sure how their world functions without sound too. [Like how they got their jobs or many other things that would more than likely require sound because communication is practically needed]. They still have their eyesight, at least 1 worker should have seen it coming).
Then again, this video is meant to bring about an extreme example. The solutions or actions suggested in the video are meant to be your only options, but realistically that isn't the case.
(But yes, you are right. In their world, sound ceases to exist until it is "invented.")
Thank you, Smithers
When you had the option to push someone else down on the track to stop the train you could instead do like Black Widow and Hawkeye and fight each other for the honor of sacrificing yourself.
When the front wheels passes over the points flip the switch, derailing the train. Push the fat guy on top of the passing train's roof. The car rubber necking, looking a the train was about to run over both of us. You are a hero.
I shouldn't be watching stuff like this just before i go to bed, i have trouble sleeping now lol... Carl
At an acting class I took, I was asked to make a film in which I play a man who is about to commit suicide. Since being dumped or losing someone seemed to clise to me I went for something more complex: not wanting to live with the guilt for the choice made in the trolley problem. So here's the trolley problem I created for my character:
A helicopter gunship pilot is assigned to providing cover for a team trying to capture a terrorist leader. Suddenly the team is ambushed by several terrorists shooting rocked and heavy machine guns. The other gunships are shot down and the protagonist's co-pilot is also killed by machinegun fire, leaving the protagonist as the only gunship pilot still in the battle. Now that the terrorist gave away their position he can easily level the building from which the terrorist are shooting before more of his teammates are killed. But here's where the trolley (helicopter in this case) problem comes in: The building is a school filled with children. What's the right thing do here:
1. Kill the terrorists and the children
2. Let the soldiers die and the terrorists escape (and kill even more people in the future) but give the children a chance to live.
The character of course makes the worst decision: he hesitates and 2 transport helicopters are shot down killing over 20 soldiers and only then he fires rockets at the building, killing everyone inside.
It's things like this that the trolley problem really about, not literal careless people standing on the tracks.
This video reminds me of variations of the Milgram experiment - where, when people could see the subjects they felt more guilt and wouldn't obey as easily. Pushing someone off the bridge makes you feel more directly responsible for their death.
I wonder can we warn the one person and then switch the lever?
Simple. People feel disconnected from the consequences of an action if they just have to interact with a lever. But if you have to physically push someone off a bridge and murder them. The act becomes more connected to you. In short, the more an action with a morally bad consequence is disconnected from an individual, the easier it gets. Just like a lever in fact. Your Morales are like a lever, if you grab closer to the bottom of the lever it's harder to switch, but at the other end it's a lot easier. The only difference between people is where pivot point is.
Yes. Good points.
The easiest way is switch the point when the front wheel is at another track. That way the train will derail.
I will jump in front of the train and push it with my back like Mr Incredibles has done in The Incredibles 1.
I have done that not because I want anyone to be saved just wanna show how awesome I am though.
That's funny because I just watched Incredibles 2 last night.
@@howardbaxter2514 Haha its one of my fav movie
You are killing five people by not doing anything to stop the trolley or move it's direction.
You could just put some leaves on the line. That'll stop it.
In the test, turn the one guy on the tracks to two people (then make them your children) and the fat guy is your much loved father. So it's more about your relationship with the folks involved, example: make the five people your political rivals or prisoners. It's all about value judgements and people make them every day, often in very small ways. Personally, I'm not very intrigued by calling it a "moral" dilemma since it's only a version of personal preferences and values and they vary so widely (situational). No one knows for sure unless the situation arises suddenly in their own life. Easy and fun to contemplate or decide from afar but real time in your life as it suddenly arises, you might decide very differently and it's no fun exercise. Actual results might follow chaos theory rather than calm rational logic.
The problem is the problem it really comes down to ur moral aspect cuz no one can judge whats right n wrong in this situation
i want to hear this mans voice all day xd
With the way switches work, if you throw it only halfway, the trolley may derail and possibly not kill anyone.
If you removed yourself from the situation the people on the wrong track would be killed and the one person would survive.
Also, How do you go to someones family after you actively killed them and say I volunteered them to be a hero for the sake of others.
It's one thing volunteering yourself to be in that situation to save others but when you volunteer someone else to take over what would happen regardless, that is wrong as you cut their life short in an attempt to prolong someone else's life.
Even though the man on the below section of track isn't seemingly in danger, he is still standing directly on a railroad track, his death would in some sense still be his own fault of unawareness. The fat man on top of the bridge, however, is not in danger and could not be faulted for having been pushed off, his death would not directly correspond in scope to what would happen to the other man. Trains run on tracks, they don't suck people off of overhead bridges.
Also the fat man doesn't know anything, he's innocent then you're morally evil-like going to push him to the tracks to stop the train
You're more evil when u do that, So I'll just let the fat man live and then go switch for the 1 man track
0:16 Yes, we had to invent sound.
P.S. Yes, I know that's the joke; don't woooosh me.
The reason for it is that, when you push a man off the bridge, he has no way to avoid dying, or getting seriously hurt at least. Whereas, when one has the option to direct the runaway trolley to the one man, he is given a better deal, where he can possibly notice it and get aside.
For the purpose of most versions of the exercise, the people on the tracks can’t move.
Not the point. SMH gheez people can't think. . . Sad days
I would time it perfectly so the trolley just goes flying
So what's the solution? I think it's not only a matter of guilt. Most people would save 5 and sacrifice 1. But most people would NOT push one in the way. Why? - Because simply in the first option it's not your fault. Trolley would kill people no matter of your presence. You aren't killing anyone, but rather saving someone (or 5, if you choose to "sacrifice" one). If you push a guy, YOU kill someone. That's a difference. I wouldn't feel guilt in the first option - I decided quickly to save 5 people. In the second option I would feel remorse, cause I killed someone. don't even see this as a moral question, it's pretty obvious.
+Matej Bukovec I would think that solution differs in the field you are applying the problem in. Legally the right answer (I think/Prof told me) is to not do anything. It is a test to figure out cognition of a person, a test to find out how you or an individual's thinking process. (What applies etc)
+Matej Bukovec As presented here, in the first option the worker alone on the spur has a flip the coin chance of seeing the train in time or hearing it in time. In the second case you are the direct cause of the death of a person.
+Matej Bukovec Ah but therein lies the problem. The trolley would kill people no matter what, but it wouldn't have killed the single person on the spur if you hadn't pulled the lever. For all you know, the person on the spur was doing what he was supposed to and the 5 on the track are idiots who shouldn't be there. You'd be killing someone who was never in danger to save 5 idiots who put themselves in danger.
Matej Bukovec But you would kill the one person on the other track. He wouldn't die if it wasn't for you now, would he?
The difference is one is murder and the other can be ruled as an accident. If you push the fat man, it's a conscious decision to terminate one life to save 5 others, you are actively killing someone as a result. By simply turning the lever, you can claim that you were only focused on the 5 people there and didn't realise another person was on the other track. It could be argued that in the heat of the moment, you thought you were saving lives but didn't see someone else was on the other track.
I do think the better example is when the people are tied to the tracks tho, just because then it really is a situation of "will you kill one person to save 5?" without any loopholes of "oh I didn't see a person on the other track"
I can always point to the Trolley Problem when people start throwing around "objective truth" hahaaaa
CapnHMCrunch well the objective truth is you should pull the lever because that is murder and you should just watch whenever an accident happens
@@076657 if you remove the legality from the problem, what would be your solution then?
@@howardbaxter2514 I would not touch the switch because i have no idea about the bigger picture - the further path after those people. I may end end up causing a bigger accident by making decision without being equipped with enough information. If there are switches like this, its most probable that the professionals would have such switches too on other tracks etc and they most probably made a better decision to avoid this trolley from causing a bigger accident like hitting another train etc.
thing is,why is the train working even though the rail way isn't done yet?
I wouldn't pull the lever nor push the fat man. I'd let the 5 die in both cases. If I kill one man to save 5, in both cases I am the direct cause of that person's death. However, if I let the train go, it is not my responsibility that the men are on the tracks (what were they doing there anyway?), and their death is not because of me.
Exactly, workers were on operational railway by their choice it's their fault
By your logic it wouldn't matter if it were 100 people. How about a thousand? "However, if I let the train go, it is not my responsibility " if you are the only one who can save the many I think it is your "responsibility". There are sins of omission not just commission .
Marco Simone Vetti Look, it's moral and ye moral is also personal comfort (to some) beyond many other things. Let the natural selection do the job, nature is the most balanced thing existing. I would try to save them and even toss my self infront of the train but killing someone is not my thing to do. Violance corrupts everyone who uses it, no matter the cause, it's a fact. That one person could've been a doctor that is on verge of discovering cure for Malaria or whatever and could've saved more people than I did with killing him. Look at how many arguments I have provided why it's wrong, people are not numbers and if you think it's a game of numbers you might be a sociopath. I thought like you before (2 years ago) and now I see how wrong I was about everything
There's an important question that people don't seem to mention a lot. Now I'm sure I'm not the first one to ask this, but why in all possible scenarios would 5 men be working on a train track that is still being actively used? Why would they not have noticed the train or even hear it so to move out of the way? This entire scenario doesn't make sense and it would be morally wrong to save 5 people who ignorantly put themselves at danger by killing someone who is completely innocent and minding his/her own business.
Call it murder all you want for not saving 5 of the world's dumbest human beings, but the point should've gotten across at this point. Hell, this scenario would be the equivalent of giving the decision to save or not to save someone who attempts suicide. Then again that scenario makes a lot more sense.
Absolutly beautiful illustration of that philosophical problem
I can see that the lever definitely saves a net four lives.
I can't see how pushing the man over the bridge definitely stops the train from killing five other people, I do not believe the narrative I am being fed.
We have to factor our imagination into the calculation.