Building a New Terminal App (with Zach Lloyd)

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ม.ค. 2025

ความคิดเห็น • 86

  • @CjqNslXUcM
    @CjqNslXUcM 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +59

    Warp looks nice, but the fact that it's proprietary software makes it a complete non-starter in my eyes. I can't shift my most central workflows to a tool that might disappear when the startup goes under. Other concerns are privacy and that I can't make a pull request if there's a bug that affects me. The fact that I am forced to login to a terminal app is obviously laughable, but it's no longer under consideration anyway.
    I fully respect their wishes to publish and monetize it in this way, but I think people will know what I mean when I say it's a Mac app.

    • @Chiramisudo
      @Chiramisudo 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      💯 I wouldn't trust anything that wasn't entirely open source. Most importantly, any AI functionality must necessarily be in an entirely separate repo and either only built into the product with an explicit command or build step, or otherwise explicitly installed as a module by the end user. Under no circumstances is it acceptable to EVER bake AI directly into ANY product itself.

    • @orbatos
      @orbatos 4 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Came to say this, on top of feedback that the bizarre idea that collaboration is "new", whether you would want the local terminal application to take over functions of the shell/tmux, etc. It's like this is designed by people who don't understand how terminals are actually used with the small utilities we use constantly.

  • @SimGunther
    @SimGunther 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +42

    Requiring an online account for a terminal emulator? NO THANKS!
    There's already alacritty and kitty if GPU accelerated terminal emulators are your thing. I wonder what was really missing in a terminal emulator that would boost their productivity that warp doesn't offer.

    • @kenneth_romero
      @kenneth_romero 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      wez term also pretty good. at least on macos is feels better than alacritty or kitty, in terms of integration with macos. always had issues with kitty and alacritty for the type of workflow i had.

    • @cagataykaydr3015
      @cagataykaydr3015 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@kenneth_romero Yeah yesterday switched to Wezterm, and it's a great experience. The greatest thing I loved about it was, switching to it from Alacritty didn't take even 45 minutes! With simple lua language and great documentation, I did set it up much more faster than Alacritty

  • @user-eg6nq7qt8c
    @user-eg6nq7qt8c 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +34

    I believe this is a wonderful project. I believe the devs are well meaning and want to make the terminal great. And yet, I will never use a terminal app that requires an online account and telemetry. That is a bridge too far.

  • @TheMrSnuSnu
    @TheMrSnuSnu 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Thank you so much for taking the request! Amazing content as usual

    • @DeveloperVoices
      @DeveloperVoices  5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      And thanks for the suggestion! 🙂

  • @mrfabrice
    @mrfabrice 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

    Was super excited to try warp and actually curious to see how it would handle my zpresto setup however signing up to try a terminal is a big nope. I am probably not the target demographic for this tool. I'll keep using kitty for the time being. Also, and despite what Zach said during the interview having some privacy settings in a Terminal app is kind of scary - I do understand their business model is about up-selling openai api calls but the only thing I am seeing is more attack surface on the app that is going to interact with my shell.

  • @ProgrammingRainbow
    @ProgrammingRainbow 4 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Technically, not lieing is the best way to lie. I love the dance and manoeuvring when asked about the privacy and security concerns about using this product. The correct answer was it's absolutely a problem when using this product as its intended. You are giving up your security and privacy. But the technically true answer is the opposite. You opt into it, so the choice is yours so you're safe as long as you don't opt into the main features that are meant to be used. I love it. Is J-Walking across a highway dangerous? Yes, of course. Or Technically no, it's not. You are opting into this when you do it, so the control has been given to you, so it's safe as long as you don't do it. This is an AI integrated terminal, so the real answer is yes, it's absolutely 100 per cent dangerous to use for privacy and security reasons. Unless you are an enterprise with their own local or private llm. This just reminds me of the plastics industry backing the useless recycling symbol knowing most of the numbers were not recyclable and the ones that were could not or would not still be recycled but it allowed them to Technically save the planet by pushing the blame to the consumers. Technically correct is the best.

  • @AvanaVana
    @AvanaVana 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Started using warp a few months ago and liking it a lot. Haven’t got too much into “agent mode”, but looking forward to spicing up (and speeding up) my workflows with it in the future.

  • @TheHubra
    @TheHubra 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    I gave this a try just because I wanted to see what it would be like. There are some features here that I really like, but overall I cannot swallow some of the major cons that others in the comments have already pointed out (needing to sign in, etc.)
    Also, am i the only one who thinks that an AI in the terminal is a recipe for disaster? I have no idea what this thing is going to do so I didnt even try it. But if its a read-only kind of thing where it doesnt execute commands itself, then im down.
    I think that on the bright side, this sets up a precedent to how terminal apps can help us be more productive, and I can imagine a FOSS version of this that only has the good stuff that I want, and i bet its coming very soon. So overall not bad!
    EDIT: RE: the privacy concerns with regards to AI: the way they "solved" this would have been neat if it was an open source program. Then I could audit the code and build it to ensure there was nothing going on there. But the fact that I can't (And correct me if im wrong here) means that all claims or promises a company makes (in regards to privacy) will fall on deaf ears. We've been burned too many times for us to give the benefit of the doubt anymore. There's really no way around this, we simply have no choice but to assume the worst if it these claims cannot be confirmed. And I hope it goes without saying that I'm not accusing anyone of anything. Its just a general rule that we have to follow if safety is a concern.
    EDIT 2: They just mentioned that they have some plans to partially make it Open source, which will likely be enough to resolve the privacy concerns i mentioned. Awesome!

    • @rylaczero3740
      @rylaczero3740 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      There's Wave Terminal

  • @azmo_
    @azmo_ 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I've never used the terminal (Junior developer). The ai of warp helped me a lot to start with it. Learning by doing, and now not needed anymore, maybe sometimes for more complex stuff or to understand snippets from the Internet

  • @RaquelFoster
    @RaquelFoster 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Terminal apps! Now there's a topic that can go a lot of different directions depending on how much you like vim. The only developer who ever drunk texted me from jail is a vim contributor. But don't we all just want an integrated terminal in our editor and a hot-keyed Quake-style drop-down terminal for special occasions? I'm already logged into VSCode and that seems like a pretty ideal way to share context with a coding assistant if I want. A terminal outside your IDE is an app that people want to be super lightweight. Putting AI in it is like putting AI in a calculator app ... which Apple literally just did LOL but it's very awkward. When you open the terminal you're saying, "I'm gonna do this shit manually because I know what I'm doing and sometimes I want to rm -rf something." I don't want GPT hallucinations showing up in the same window where I'm rm -rf-ing things! 😂

  • @ripple123
    @ripple123 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +50

    can we stop with the AI integration into everything? i dont need AI in my terminal or any dev tool for that matter

    • @ontoverse
      @ontoverse 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +9

      But the AI needs YOU ....

    • @11WicToR11
      @11WicToR11 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      the thing is, you can integrate it yourself or have a cli tool if you want it. Why do we need terminal with AI when we already have that? Because it sells nowadays, i'll answer myself.

    • @ruprecht9997
      @ruprecht9997 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Does it have block chain as well?

    • @pookiepats
      @pookiepats 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Next up-embedded browser in duckDB

    • @ssshenkie
      @ssshenkie 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      You can just not use it, why should people stop making what they want?

  • @ruprecht9997
    @ruprecht9997 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Kudos for daring to think outside the box, but I watched some other videos showing Warp in use, and it feels a bit like adding bells and whistles, really.
    Separating output from commands into their own areas, isn't particularly important until you're talking about longer running commands, like file searches or network tasks, things you like to run in the background. This can be done with multiple windows, if we're anyway talking GUI here.
    As to cooperative use, for me, the terminal/shell is about doing specific things, exact commands that can be exchanged via Teams. Because contrary to GUI applications, working with text means it is easy to share. And shell scripts are text files which can also be easily shared, even through a repo.

  • @cb73
    @cb73 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Never forget that the terminal is the one technology that has been untouched by commercial interests. It also has to feel like a direct portal into bare metal, it can’t feel like a product.

    • @orbatos
      @orbatos 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Not untouched at all, but certainly not *seized* because of the need for interoperability. This is an "AI" cash grab with motivations mostly solved by existing projects like fish.

  • @paxdriver
    @paxdriver 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    LLMs are such great help with terminal and regex. Seriously, that alone does everything. If you could just write what you wanted to do with a flag symbol as first character in cli, then LLM responds with the command and explanation of why that's recommended, have it ask y/n to copy as is or keep chatting to refine it. Honestly, nothing would be easier than a terminal with chatbot integrated by a single key or command the start writing a prompt.

    • @orbatos
      @orbatos 4 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      You do realize there's already cli frontends for that if that's what you want right? There's no visible reason to use this at all.

  • @WebSurfingIsMyPastime
    @WebSurfingIsMyPastime 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    liked, commented, subscribed!

  • @paxdriver
    @paxdriver 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    38:04 is DirectX the Windows equivalent to OpenGL, CUDA, webGL, cycles, etc?

    • @rodrigolj
      @rodrigolj 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      No, DirectX is the WHOLE suite: 3d and 2d graphics, audio, text rendering, any type of input from keyboard to game controllers... Direct3D is what you're thinking of when you're comparing to OpenGL, Vulkan or Apple's Metal.

    • @orbatos
      @orbatos 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      More like OpenGL + SDL. Current versions have a lot of parity with Vulkan but the selling point is really the SDK.
      @rodrigolj It's closer to Metal in that it's a collection of APIs (Metal is essentially Vulkan plus Apple's media framework), but in terms of graphics it's reasonable to just equate DX with D3D.

  • @_BLANK_BLANK
    @_BLANK_BLANK 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I feel like making a terminal that makes things easier, and abstracts them is maybe a good thing for super new users, and people that don't need knowledge of how the system works.
    But, I can't help but feel like obscuring this stuff isn't a great idea overall. Like something as basic as what the shell does, vs the terminal. Much less all the other things in the terminal. Having to learn these things give you a better understanding of your system as a whole, and lets you understand what you are actually doing in it.
    I'm not saying there isn't any value in something like this. I just think that it comes with a very real downside.

  • @KruidenBundeltje
    @KruidenBundeltje 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Great interview, I wonder if they build the app today if they would use rust's wgpu package.
    @Developer Voices Somewhat unrelated question though, what tools do you use to create these tessellated thumbnail backgrounds?
    I have a hobby project to learn myself rust that does grid tessellation, interpolation, etc. and would love to compare it to some existing tools.

  • @OscarForero
    @OscarForero 28 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Ok, they got there

  • @danieleden1856
    @danieleden1856 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    The pause before saying first class... "AI".. you can tell he really didnt want to say it.

    • @orbatos
      @orbatos 4 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Because he's aware that it's the only thing he's actually selling, and it's rapidly losing popularity.

  • @empathy_monster
    @empathy_monster 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +9

    A lot of people do not like AI integration into our familiar tools. There is, however, an important flip side: These tools have the power the revolutionize accessibility for disabled individuals, particularly people with learning and mobility-related disabilities, such as people who are paralyzed and amputees that have to operate their computers with voice, and if you have a learning disability and it's hard to retain information. Not everyone is able-bodied. There are good and legitimate uses of AI that can truly democratize access to technology.

    • @SourceOfViews
      @SourceOfViews 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      There is great uses for AI and accessibility is one of them.
      Most people are just sick of AI integrations, because there is a hype about stuffing some half-baked AI into every product, because you want to have AI in it, not because it solves an actual issue.
      If you actually try to solve a problem and the best answer that comes up is "use AI", then great, please use AI.

    • @empathy_monster
      @empathy_monster 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@SourceOfViews Thank you for your comment. I'm just trying to raise awareness of this aspect.

    • @SourceOfViews
      @SourceOfViews 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@empathy_monster Definitely a good thing to raise awareness for.
      My gf also said that she like the figma conference, where they framed AI not as a solution to things but a new style of interaction. One less precise, but much more accessible. Even for able bodied people that are maybe a bit tech illiterate.

    • @atleastonce
      @atleastonce 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      But we are talking about terminal here. There's PEM files, passwords, cat in files with sensitive information. I don't know if it is a good thing for companies to use a terminal that isn't open source. You don't know if it's a liability

    • @orbatos
      @orbatos 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      No they don't, at least not right now. Usable, responsive dictation systems have been around for decades, just over priced, current LLMs don't actually do anything you want aside from dictation, which already exists.

  • @OscarForero
    @OscarForero 28 วันที่ผ่านมา

    At least the first minutes seems as they are taking about the shell not the terminal

  • @robfielding8566
    @robfielding8566 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Related to terminals, is LLM based agents. I think Accessibility is massively mis-designed right now. It should be designed as a normal terminal that you can ssh into. The same things that let a blind person navigate a screen, are exactly what you need to invite in an Agent to do tasks for you.

    • @orbatos
      @orbatos 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      It can't do any of that, and you don't want agents for most accessibility functions for lots of reasons, the main ones being consistently and privacy. Functional dictation systems have been around since the 90's.

  • @JamesSjaalman
    @JamesSjaalman 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    But can he write a termcap-enrty for it?

    • @JamesSjaalman
      @JamesSjaalman 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      And termcap/terminfo IS the published spec. This guy is an idiot.

  • @Chiramisudo
    @Chiramisudo 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

    NO THANKS!!! I don't want AI within a MILLION MILES of my terminal, or any other part of my devices, especially anything with even the ability to connect to the Internet, opt-in or not. I don't even want the capability in the software itself.

  • @paxdriver
    @paxdriver 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Just tuning now but wanted to make a prediction on terminal preference by the end of the video: tilix is still the best and will always be the best terminal. Convince me otherwise 😜😘

  • @nexovec
    @nexovec 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Hey Kris, I don't know what that would look like, but can you try inviting Brandur Leech, creator of river queue?

    • @DeveloperVoices
      @DeveloperVoices  4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Ooh, interesting. Added to my list, thanks!

  • @cptCrax
    @cptCrax 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    What a coincidence! `josh` is the name of the new shell I've started working on. My pitch is that it will be like `fish` except updated for the '00s. 😁

    • @maksymiliank5135
      @maksymiliank5135 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      we are well into the 20s

  • @atleastonce
    @atleastonce 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I think warp is amazing. Great product, good idea to organize information in a "notebook"ish fashion. The completions are great and ahead of time, mainly for repetitive work. But for serious job, I don't think is a good idea to use a tool that is not open source, you can't inspect it. You need to believe that it is not logging ultra sensitive information from one of the most privileged app like a pseudoterminal

  • @cb73
    @cb73 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I fear we are going to see a day when all dev tools, the terminal and the IDE will all be subscription services. There will be nothing you can develop that won’t require yet another SaaS.

  • @orbatos
    @orbatos 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    The terminal's job is efficiently drawing elements the shell and applications have to it, I don't see how this offers anything we want to that stack. It you were proposing vt extensions or a rehash to bring that forward I would say you have a point, but this is just another proprietary vt emulator with no merit more than existing ones.

  • @psi4j
    @psi4j 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Don’t use electron, use Tauri

  • @mcol3
    @mcol3 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Can you bring someone from the lean 4 world to the show?

  • @emjones8092
    @emjones8092 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I love the optimism. Also, visual studio developers may be the exception to this "everybody uses a terminal" rule. Thank goodness they are such a minority at this point.

  • @jamesrivettcarnac
    @jamesrivettcarnac 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    The product questions and answers are interesting. It business model is suspect.

  • @maksymiliank5135
    @maksymiliank5135 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Having AI in your terminal sounds like a looming disaster. No, thank you. I don't want any random command which I haven't verified to run on my machine.

  • @haze6277
    @haze6277 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    closed source "AI" product. Thanks, but no

  • @11WicToR11
    @11WicToR11 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    I cant stop myself laughing at how many times he said "to make terminal more usable/useful" ...what is this guy even talking about LOL.
    Terminal is the most useful tool on each computer and he even admitted that he is the guy who doesn't understand basic gnu tools so he doesn't even understand how useful it is. Terminal is perfect as is and it definitely doesn't miss getting jailed behind proprietary wall. I really don't like devs like this guy, the type that uses gui git client yikes

    • @ruprecht9997
      @ruprecht9997 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Its all about modern UI and rounded corners, and introducing mouse elbows to terminal users.
      Microsoft has made a living of this, repositioning the menu or centering the task bar, adding a search bar here or there, and slapping a new version of windows label on it.

  • @wendelpereira387
    @wendelpereira387 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Hope one day you find a better Putty ssh term.

  • @salty_cucumber
    @salty_cucumber 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Warp? Terminal with a LOGIN WINDOW and AI features? These two things heavily imply where you input/output is going. No thank you

  • @voiceoftreason1760
    @voiceoftreason1760 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    i only use open source terminal emulators. dont like the direction this video went

  • @ripple123
    @ripple123 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    people are against logging into a terminal, but would log into their ide/text editor (vscode, jetbrains etc.)

    • @CripplingDuality
      @CripplingDuality 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      License management is already pretty facocta, keylogging is beyond the pale.

    • @jhonyortiz5
      @jhonyortiz5 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      No, that's why I use a terminal editor.

    • @mrfabrice
      @mrfabrice 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      And people are also signing to online email services to read their email but this is beyond the point. There is no reason to log into a terminal window application unless you optin any of their server side managed features . I do feel they are losing a ton of potential users by not giving them a chance to try out every thing not sass dependent. They def lost me.