I think that using a Welsh name that is not pronounced as most English-language readers would read it was an unwise move. I suspect the Cynefin (pron: K'nevin) Framework would be better known with a more 'international' name. That said, it's a thinking tool that is full of insight. And, in the complicated, complex, and sometimes chaotic world we (Project Managers) inhabit, it's well-worth understanding. I have added a brief note about recent updates to the model, in a reply to this comment.
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There have been two updates to the model that introduce liminality and split what was the disordered (central) state into two: aporetic and confused states. - Liminal refers to an extended boundary (or threshold) between the complicated and complex, and complex and chaotic states. It recognizes that the transitions out of the complex domain are fuzzy. - Aporetic refers to the center of the diagram (formerly disordered) when the disorder is inherent and cannot be resolved. This contrasts with Confused', which is used when the uncertainty can be resolved, but needs further evidence, analysis, and understanding.
Complacency isn’t the only thing to push you over the cliff Simple (aka Clear) into Chaos; over-regulation with excessive compliance will do it too as rules cannot account for context hence rule sets are overly broad. Forcing their application edges you toward the cliff.
Thank you - yes. My videos focus on the ideas, but I could look for examples in future videos. In the household realm: - simple: door misaligned because hinges poorly fitted - complicated: door misaligned due to ground subsidence - complex: the desire to stabilize and restore an ancient archaelogical househiold - chaotic: restoring archaelogical remains in an unstabkle region I think political and social challenges (wherever you live) are disordered. The problem is that different politicians approach the problems in differrent ways - most often they treat complex and chaotic societal problems as if they are simple or complicated!
Hi i like your way and the things you said especially bringing aricles in it But i should say this First when i started to see this i like the way you talked with emphasis but as it went on i saw you are just talking like that That is a great way to emphasis on a particular word or part of the speech but to talk like that would do the opposite iwas so distracted that i couldnt understand you in the second half completely Thanks and Good luck
Thank you. I slow down my speech to help people for whom English is not their first language. If this results in uncomfortable emphasis for you, I am sorry.
The Elephant in the Room is the Culture. The meaning of Cynefin is "the place where we feel we belong, where the people and landscape around us are familiar, and the sights and sounds are reassuringly recognisable."
That's an interesting insight - I had not known what the Welsh word, cynefin, actually means. So, some sense of homeland, I guess. That does imply it is in some way about culture. But I am not sure how. When you describe it as the elephant in the room, you imply it is something we aren't talking about. SO, what is it that we should be saying?
@@Onlinepmcourses In "The Cynefin Framework" video on CognitiveEdge channel Dave Snowden explains the meaning of the concept. In my original comment I copied and pasted its explanation from the Internet (Curriculum for Wales). "Culture" in my original comment was not "culture" in a general sense of its meaning, rather Organisational/Business/Team Culture ie the environment and conditions that enable or interfere with a journey from one domain of the framework to another. The majority of people focus on the "how", they test their grasp, they evaluate themselves, their skills or their fit with the message of your video. I suggest they keep their focus on the Culture they are in: context, purpose, leadership, structure, mindset, communication, skills and so on. It is not in the framework, it is the framework (and the name) ie the Elephant in the Room.
@@LD-wf2yt I understood culture to mean organizational culture. I agree we need to evaluate our skills against... the situation. This is a combination of the culture we are in and also the current state of our project, culture, relationships, problem-set, trends... Culture is, indeed important. But it is only one of many factors in assessing the nature of the challenge and therefore the approach to handling it.
@@Onlinepmcourses If we put Culture or Wholeness (individuals as Culture is fine as well) in the context of many levels of the Business Maturity (and its dynamics) and/or if evaluated across many layers (acts as a prism) of the Iceberg model theory we could better see the central role it plays. For the how part I would put my focus on time-limited experiments to provoke deliberate failures and in doing so mobilize collective intelligence, thinking differently, reframing, taking risks, taking breaks (recharge concentration) and so on which gives us the Cynefin framework. Someone wrote that games are places and/or events where people do not experience stress, anxiety etc. People do it willingly. So when playing, say, Sudoku online, there is a complete shift in thinking when playing at Easy level, any of intermediate levels and Extreme level. The shift in learning and thinking we experience (technology does not change much, if at all) puts our egos in the back seat.
Could use an update. Disorder really isn’t a domain so much as not knowing which you’re in. Blindly being in it is bad while knowing you’re in it isn’t as bad and time permitting you can be in Aporia. If time unavailable, he wisely teaches to treat it as Complex till you know. Beyond this and in conjunction with Aporia, he has also added Liminal Zone while renaming the disorder outside the Aporetic to Confused. His teaching to treat as Complex if time be critical and you don’t know where you are also conditionally cuts against your recommendation to assess carefully.
Thank you. You are taking your description of disorder beyond the scope of my simple introduction. I am a little skeptical that the real world can truly be in a state of contradiction (aporia/confused) where opposites are true. But I am happy to concede that, in our ignorance, things can sometimes seem that way, with a paradoxical appearance. I do, however, like the idea of a liminal (or border) zone. It's new to me and you don't say where it lies. I would expect liminal (transitionary) zones between each of the four domains - as well as between disorder/confusion and the four domains, as you seem to imply. Interesting.
@@Onlinepmcourses Snowden makes a slice between Complicated and Complex cutting through disorder and continuing between Complex and Chaotic. He’ll then discuss the unstable nature of Chaos while mentioning you may deliberately try small dips into it from Complex in areas isolated to reduce harm potential while enabling creativity opportunity. The line in the Disordered for this Liminal separates Confused from Aporetic with Aporetic being you know you don’t know which you’re in (Confused being you don’t know you don’t know). The Liminal region between Complex and Complicated is a region for opportunity as some systems are truly Complex Adaptive while others seem Complex to us till we learn them and we may discover them to actually be deterministic Ordered. Being able to move from Complex to Complicated becomes opportunity to exploit and ties to Snowden’s Flexuous Curves as well as Simon Wardley’s Mapping. Alternately, as I believe you said, adding more Complication could push you to Complex hence also in this liminal space. Interesting Snowden also uses an analogy for energy change here in the Liminal with phase shifts. To be confusing, however, he also uses analogy of changes in potential energy via height while also using this phase of matter metaphor which goes the opposite direction with Clear or Simple being solid, Complicated liquid, Complex gas, and Confused a triple point. You can find Cynefin IO and Cynefin wiki with more updated stuff while the Cynefin anthology book runs through a history of it adapting to current view over a span of about twenty years. Note also Snowden’s SenseMaking with its more unique data collection and vector improvement as well as Estuaries which, to me anyway, seems a practical hands on application of John Boyd of OODA, EM theory, Destruction & Creation, Discourse on Winning and Losing. Since mentioning Boyd, I’d like to mention Sinek of Leaders Eat Last, Infinite Game, and Start with Why as I see him as a nexus between Boyd and Dale Carnegie. Sinek also likes vector over objective in assessment. Back to liminal, you don’t see it between Clear and Complicated as really both are subsets of Ordered (deterministic) while you don’t see it at Clear to Chaos as that is the cliff.
@@jimallen8186 Jim, thank you very much for all that information - interesting. I like the physics metaphors you mention, as my degree and PhD were in Theoretical Physics. And I also like that you refer to the OODA Loop as I have been teaching it and writing about it for around 20 years, in the context of management and PM.
Correct. Cynefin is a conceptual model. Except that the founder, Dave Snowden, does not like the use of the word 'model' for Cynefin, and prefers the word framework. My assumption (I don't know) is that he doesn't think this is a model of how the world is, so prefers to think of it as a framework for gaining some insight into a situation. However, it's not a methodology (in that it offers no series of steps) It just suggests a way to understand what we encounter and recommends approaches to dealing with things.
@@angelaballard3929 As I said - in my first response to this thread, Dave Snowden does not like the use of the word 'model' for Cynefin, and prefers the word framework. So, he says it's not a model. And in my opening to the video I call it a framework. But... of course it is a model! It is a thinking framework that explains a part of experience in a simplified form that allows us a better understanding of what is happening and to therefore identify the stronger and weaker responses. That's what models do. Like all models, it has areas of applicability and weaknesses when compared to reality. So, if I call it a model and you call it something else, that's fine by me. A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.
I think that using a Welsh name that is not pronounced as most English-language readers would read it was an unwise move. I suspect the Cynefin (pron: K'nevin) Framework would be better known with a more 'international' name. That said, it's a thinking tool that is full of insight. And, in the complicated, complex, and sometimes chaotic world we (Project Managers) inhabit, it's well-worth understanding. I have added a brief note about recent updates to the model, in a reply to this comment.
Thank you for watching.
Please support the channel and all the free content I provide. Like, comment, and subscribe to the channel. And why not join my community, free! Sign-up at onlinepmcourses.com/assets440251/the-onlinepmcourses-newsletter/
And to show maximum appreciation, use the $ Thanks button, under the video, to make a small donation with a highlighted comment.
There have been two updates to the model that introduce liminality and split what was the disordered (central) state into two: aporetic and confused states.
- Liminal refers to an extended boundary (or threshold) between the complicated and complex, and complex and chaotic states. It recognizes that the transitions out of the complex domain are fuzzy.
- Aporetic refers to the center of the diagram (formerly disordered) when the disorder is inherent and cannot be resolved. This contrasts with Confused', which is used when the uncertainty can be resolved, but needs further evidence, analysis, and understanding.
Thank you Mike-you sure have a way with words. You made this concept quite clear to me, and I greatly appreciate that.
Thank you, Oscar.
Complacency isn’t the only thing to push you over the cliff Simple (aka Clear) into Chaos; over-regulation with excessive compliance will do it too as rules cannot account for context hence rule sets are overly broad. Forcing their application edges you toward the cliff.
That's an excellent point. Thank you very much.
Brilliant!
Thank you!
Thank you. This was a very good explanation and easy to decipher. I wish there were examples given though as that would help a lot.
Thank you - yes. My videos focus on the ideas, but I could look for examples in future videos.
In the household realm:
- simple: door misaligned because hinges poorly fitted
- complicated: door misaligned due to ground subsidence
- complex: the desire to stabilize and restore an ancient archaelogical househiold
- chaotic: restoring archaelogical remains in an unstabkle region
I think political and social challenges (wherever you live) are disordered. The problem is that different politicians approach the problems in differrent ways - most often they treat complex and chaotic societal problems as if they are simple or complicated!
Thank you for sharing the information. More examples from day today life / work will add more clarity to your information. Overall informative. Thanks
Thank you, Faheem.
Thankyou. This was very clear.
You're very welcome.
Nicely described !
Thank you!
This video help a lot!
That's great!
Love this framework!
Yes, it's great!
Fantastic explanation. I want to write my diploma in this topic!
Thank you - I'm guessing you've been back to the source, so I'll take that as a high compliment!
I would love to know some practical examples. Great video though!
Thank you.
Hi i like your way and the things you said especially bringing aricles in it
But i should say this
First when i started to see this i like the way you talked with emphasis but as it went on i saw you are just talking like that
That is a great way to emphasis on a particular word or part of the speech but to talk like that would do the opposite iwas so distracted that i couldnt understand you in the second half completely
Thanks and Good luck
Thank you.
I slow down my speech to help people for whom English is not their first language. If this results in uncomfortable emphasis for you, I am sorry.
The Elephant in the Room is the Culture.
The meaning of Cynefin is "the place where we feel we belong, where the people and landscape around us are familiar, and the sights and sounds are reassuringly recognisable."
That's an interesting insight - I had not known what the Welsh word, cynefin, actually means. So, some sense of homeland, I guess. That does imply it is in some way about culture. But I am not sure how. When you describe it as the elephant in the room, you imply it is something we aren't talking about. SO, what is it that we should be saying?
@@Onlinepmcourses In "The Cynefin Framework" video on CognitiveEdge channel Dave Snowden explains the meaning of the concept. In my original comment I copied and pasted its explanation from the Internet (Curriculum for Wales).
"Culture" in my original comment was not "culture" in a general sense of its meaning, rather Organisational/Business/Team Culture ie the environment and conditions that enable or interfere with a journey from one domain of the framework to another.
The majority of people focus on the "how", they test their grasp, they evaluate themselves, their skills or their fit with the message of your video. I suggest they keep their focus on the Culture they are in: context, purpose, leadership, structure, mindset, communication, skills and so on. It is not in the framework, it is the framework (and the name) ie the Elephant in the Room.
@@LD-wf2yt I understood culture to mean organizational culture. I agree we need to evaluate our skills against... the situation. This is a combination of the culture we are in and also the current state of our project, culture, relationships, problem-set, trends... Culture is, indeed important. But it is only one of many factors in assessing the nature of the challenge and therefore the approach to handling it.
@@Onlinepmcourses If we put Culture or Wholeness (individuals as Culture is fine as well) in the context of many levels of the Business Maturity (and its dynamics) and/or if evaluated across many layers (acts as a prism) of the Iceberg model theory we could better see the central role it plays.
For the how part I would put my focus on time-limited experiments to provoke deliberate failures and in doing so mobilize collective intelligence, thinking differently, reframing, taking risks, taking breaks (recharge concentration) and so on which gives us the Cynefin framework.
Someone wrote that games are places and/or events where people do not experience stress, anxiety etc. People do it willingly. So when playing, say, Sudoku online, there is a complete shift in thinking when playing at Easy level, any of intermediate levels and Extreme level. The shift in learning and thinking we experience (technology does not change much, if at all) puts our egos in the back seat.
Could use an update. Disorder really isn’t a domain so much as not knowing which you’re in. Blindly being in it is bad while knowing you’re in it isn’t as bad and time permitting you can be in Aporia. If time unavailable, he wisely teaches to treat it as Complex till you know. Beyond this and in conjunction with Aporia, he has also added Liminal Zone while renaming the disorder outside the Aporetic to Confused. His teaching to treat as Complex if time be critical and you don’t know where you are also conditionally cuts against your recommendation to assess carefully.
Thank you. You are taking your description of disorder beyond the scope of my simple introduction. I am a little skeptical that the real world can truly be in a state of contradiction (aporia/confused) where opposites are true. But I am happy to concede that, in our ignorance, things can sometimes seem that way, with a paradoxical appearance. I do, however, like the idea of a liminal (or border) zone. It's new to me and you don't say where it lies. I would expect liminal (transitionary) zones between each of the four domains - as well as between disorder/confusion and the four domains, as you seem to imply. Interesting.
@@Onlinepmcourses Snowden makes a slice between Complicated and Complex cutting through disorder and continuing between Complex and Chaotic. He’ll then discuss the unstable nature of Chaos while mentioning you may deliberately try small dips into it from Complex in areas isolated to reduce harm potential while enabling creativity opportunity. The line in the Disordered for this Liminal separates Confused from Aporetic with Aporetic being you know you don’t know which you’re in (Confused being you don’t know you don’t know). The Liminal region between Complex and Complicated is a region for opportunity as some systems are truly Complex Adaptive while others seem Complex to us till we learn them and we may discover them to actually be deterministic Ordered. Being able to move from Complex to Complicated becomes opportunity to exploit and ties to Snowden’s Flexuous Curves as well as Simon Wardley’s Mapping. Alternately, as I believe you said, adding more Complication could push you to Complex hence also in this liminal space. Interesting Snowden also uses an analogy for energy change here in the Liminal with phase shifts. To be confusing, however, he also uses analogy of changes in potential energy via height while also using this phase of matter metaphor which goes the opposite direction with Clear or Simple being solid, Complicated liquid, Complex gas, and Confused a triple point. You can find Cynefin IO and Cynefin wiki with more updated stuff while the Cynefin anthology book runs through a history of it adapting to current view over a span of about twenty years. Note also Snowden’s SenseMaking with its more unique data collection and vector improvement as well as Estuaries which, to me anyway, seems a practical hands on application of John Boyd of OODA, EM theory, Destruction & Creation, Discourse on Winning and Losing. Since mentioning Boyd, I’d like to mention Sinek of Leaders Eat Last, Infinite Game, and Start with Why as I see him as a nexus between Boyd and Dale Carnegie. Sinek also likes vector over objective in assessment. Back to liminal, you don’t see it between Clear and Complicated as really both are subsets of Ordered (deterministic) while you don’t see it at Clear to Chaos as that is the cliff.
@@jimallen8186 Jim, thank you very much for all that information - interesting. I like the physics metaphors you mention, as my degree and PhD were in Theoretical Physics. And I also like that you refer to the OODA Loop as I have been teaching it and writing about it for around 20 years, in the context of management and PM.
Ok - so by "framework", you aren't referring to a product we download. You are merely referring to a high level theoretical methodology.
Correct. Cynefin is a conceptual model.
Except that the founder, Dave Snowden, does not like the use of the word 'model' for Cynefin, and prefers the word framework.
My assumption (I don't know) is that he doesn't think this is a model of how the world is, so prefers to think of it as a framework for gaining some insight into a situation.
However, it's not a methodology (in that it offers no series of steps) It just suggests a way to understand what we encounter and recommends approaches to dealing with things.
@@Onlinepmcoursesit's not a model
@@angelaballard3929 As I said - in my first response to this thread, Dave Snowden does not like the use of the word 'model' for Cynefin, and prefers the word framework.
So, he says it's not a model. And in my opening to the video I call it a framework.
But... of course it is a model! It is a thinking framework that explains a part of experience in a simplified form that allows us a better understanding of what is happening and to therefore identify the stronger and weaker responses. That's what models do. Like all models, it has areas of applicability and weaknesses when compared to reality.
So, if I call it a model and you call it something else, that's fine by me. A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.
I have found you😊
Great!