Was there ever an AFRICAN romance language?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 มิ.ย. 2024
- Today, we will be exploring whether there was ever a North African Romance language, spoken in the former Ancient Roman colonies of the Maghreb. Social Media
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As a North-African myself, I've always felt disturbed about how people are so ignorant about our history, but this video is very informative and I can see you're an educated person. Thank you
I suppose because it's complex, information is limited + hard to study and possibly...
1. study is not really in the interest of political powers currently in charge in Northern Africa.
2. aaaand not in the interest of people in power outside of africa
To sprinkle in a fun fact -> there has even been a germanic tribe moving all the way down to northern africa in the 5th century.
Which country?
I feel like they are just seen as one of the many islamic, desert countries so that's why they get dismissed really fast.
Usually muslim historiography during the middle agea had little to no interest in anything previous to the arrival of islam. It was just hard to reconcile that there could be glory and prosperity before islam,ancient egypt would be a good example.
Cuh, you’re not special
As an Italian, I can say your cardinal vowels were perfect when you spoke Latin. Wonderful video, btw, you've just gained a new subscriber!
I agree however, I noticed that he kinda slipped of with the diphtongs. Instead of Mau̯rɛtaːnja, he turned the diphtongs into ɔː
But yeah, the rest was perfect
@@starwarsnerd47484erm actually
@@Joovus Erm acktuwally 🤓 he also pronounced Caesariensis a bit wrong because he turned the "ae" from a diphtong (ae̯) into an a...
But just for the record this still doesn't mean his pronounciation was bad, his Latin is still impressive
Not to forget that to this day, 7 varieties of Mozarabic languages have been found in the south of the Iberian Peninsula thanks to aljamiad ("latin" written in the Arabic script) vestigial texts.
The texts are mainly jarchas (pronounced as /ˈhar.tʃaz/), which were short poems about tragical love.
There's a very common latin loanword used in Chaoui (a berber language from the Aures mountains which you mentionned) which is "Ghawsa". I believe it came from latin "Causa" which gave us "Chose" in French, "Cosa" in Spanish...
*** "Gh" makes the french "r" sound
How is the word used in Chaoui?
@@FireRupee it means "thing" or "something"
E.g. "Texsed ghawsa?" = Do you want something?
***X makes an unvoiced sound similar to french "r"
@@1lyac Interesting. Thanks!
There was also mozzarabic, moçárabe or mozárabe, spoken in the iberian peninsula during the muslim conquest, a romance language with lots of arabic influences! Beautiful language, if I say so. Great video, by the way. You gained a new subscriber! Excited for your next videos.
And now we already have a European Semitic language, descended from Arabic, with huge Romance influence, it's the Maltese language
Mozzarabic is as african as ladino is so that example wouldnt work
Kind of like the romanian of Africa. Kinda cool
Nice video. Greetings from Romania to our other Romance brothers
Salve da Roma
Un abbraccio dall'Italia! (A hug from Italy!)
6:45 - That's very interesting, because there is "rosto" in Portuguese and "rostro" in spanish, and both means face.
In Portuguese, we also have the word "cara," which is way more commonly said than the word "rosto."
@@cantrusthestory Also "cara" is >90% commonly used in Spanish, but that doesn't mean that "rostro" is not a typical synonym.
Interestingly enough, "cara" was a vulgar latin word used in the whole empire, derivative from educated term "kara" taken from Ancient Greek.
A
@@BlackHoleSpainand "haz" as well :) but i think its very uncommon for "face", but it is the most "spanish-sounding" version of "faccia" to me
Nevertheless, we just have the adjective "facial".
We have the word "rost" in Romanian which used to mean mouth but lost that meaning over time. Though we still have the verb "a rosti" which means to utter/pronounce
This was an extremely well made video and broken down it was easy to understand as a former latin student you have brought back etymology love that made me study it in the first place :D
As a North African Berber, I read that Lisan Latini Ifriqi had still been recorded in 07th Islamic century/ 13th Gregorian
لا تقول berber لأنه معنى هذي الكلمة بربري او همجي قول Amazigh امازيغي
This was lovely in more ways than one. You have a very good voice for narration to my ears. And the simple logic of the "yes, there ought to have been, but it's not like we get taught about these things for bad reasons" I thought about when I saw this title in my suggested videos was answered beautifully. I also recently discovered distant ancestors of mine were Amazigh, which just made this even nicer. I've subscribed and look forward to more from you in the future.
Really nice video!!! I just wanted to point out that betacism wasn't probably imported from Africa to Spain. I remember reading a latin joke that went something like "the Spaniards must be happy, because for them to live (vivere) and to drink (bibere) is the same thing"
Maybe betacism is native, but the phrase was said by an Italian, Giulio Cesare Scaligero. It wasn't a latin joke.
That's not only a really interesting question, but also a way of answering it that I found very convincing. I feel enriched
Glad you enjoyed it!
bro i was literally thinking about this shit earlier today now this video pops up nice one man
May the TH-cam algorithm bless you I really like this type of content
I was expecting this to have a lot more views. Very well done
This is a thrilling new area of study! Props to the presenter, and let's see what can be resurrected and demonstrated as the lost (but perhaps re-found) African Romance Language we can still enjoy!
great video seriously impressed by this!
It would have been amazing if an African romance language survived into the modern day. By the way, betacism, isn't just a Spanish thing. It occurs in most romance languages and even some non romance languages too. V turns to B and back to V again. It's just a natural sound shift that occurs in Romance languages.
I just love this kind of videos, just some guy talking about something he's passionate about and educating us on a fascinating topic.
Such an amazing and in-depth video on an obscure topic I love. Great work! Subscribed
Just discovered this channel and I loved your design in general as well is color and font choises in particular
Great stuff! Glad to be here before you take off
I've been interested in this for several months, and this video gave me more information in eight and a half minutes than I've been able to find on my own in all those months. Thanks!
Great channel. Deserves a following. Glad to have found it👍
Then later you also have lingua franca, and even later pataouète. There has *always* been some Romance influence on Africa.
Great video, as always.
Very impressed with the knowledge and skill displayed in this video. Dropped a sub. Hope to see more
Underrated channel, subscribed
Much appreciated!
Very intesting. Could you consider making a video about how Latin's case system collapsed? Your mention was rather offhand, but very informative.
Such a great video 👏 congrats
Brooooo you did it! This video really put on you the map.
That is a very interesting topic, I’ve never thought about it before!
This video really made me think about how little that fact is talked about, great work
Congratulations for your excellent work
Great job mate
This video is really good and informative, something I cant say for most history related videos are. TH-cam is usually pretty bad for it, but you're a really cool exception. Keep at it.
I really appreciate the support man!💯
great video
Interesting history. Great job!
Great video. I was aware that Romance languages had been developed in North Africa but had died out unfortunately soon. Thank you for making me more informed about them.
Good video bro
I always wanted to learn how to make videos like these. I want to congrats you for your future success brother, keep up the good work
👍
this was a really good video. congrats from italy
Underrated channel
hey bro, ngl your videos are unique. you just have to be patient until the yt algorithm kicks in. in the meantime, do not give up bro and keep up the work!
Thanks for the support man! 💯
We need more brothers making linguistics videos! Subscribed
Nice video
I really like your videos ❤
How do you make it and how do you get your source and articles for your videos ?
Very interesting vid, would be interested to see your sources and do some reading
Excellent video. One can only wonder how those African dialects would have developed, but they seemed to be similar to Spanish in many regards, even the rostrum thing, which in Spanish is rostro and it means face
from what i recall, inscriptions in african romance share the most similarities with sardinian, which is not a dialect of italian but is in fact the earliest known language to diverge from latin, making it the sister to all other romance languages. if they are related, this would mean there's an entire "southern" branch of the romance languages that just barely survives into our own time.
Very interesting. The connection wirh Spanish latin seems inescapable. In fact, " rostro " in Spanish means face.
I see a few similarities with Portuguese.
Betacism, though not standard in Portuguese, is prevalent in the North of Portugal.
The palatalisation of /s/ at the end of syllables is also a characteristic of Portuguese from Portugal (though usually not in Brazilian varieties).
And "rostrum" in Portuguese evolved to "rosto", which indeed mean "face".
I think it's worth noting that the names of the months in Tamazight are suspiciously similar to Romance ones, ex. 'Yennayer' for January or more generally the New Year.
I have friends who speak a language called Romizian/Romiziano. They live in North Africa but don’t have a specific home or land. They taught me “Zeií” means yes “Kari” means face, “Zentai” means sit, “Vonjei” means hello, “Bwano dèa” means good day. The numbers, Wuna, Doz, Trez, Pautro, Zeinko, Zes, Seto, Xotra, Nuíve, Dèza. It’s quite interesting to hear
Thats a good one, can't fool anybody though
There still Latin words found in the Maghrebi arabic dialects, but it is difficult to differentiate and distinguish them from the words that came after the migration of the Andalusian Moriscos. And as an example of Moroccan words that are of Latin origin, we find the word "ţubba" or "ţawba" according to the specific dialect, which means "the rat", It comes from the Latin word for mole, "talpa", and in Italian, they call the rat "Topo" .Also, we find "Lambūţ" or "Ləbbūţ", which means "the funnel", and It comes from the Latin word "Imbut" And also it means "funnel" And we also find the word "qniyya" or "qlayna" which comes from the Latin word for hare "Cuniculus", Where "hare" also in Catalan is "qonill " .
Also the word "shulya" which means chair (Especially for large and plastic ones ) comes from the Latin word "sella"
Also, in the northern Moroccan dialect (Tangier and its surrounding cities) , some words still have a plural form by adding an “s” at the end .For example, we say usually "danōnis" the plural of one "danoune" (Yoghurt) instead of "danōnāt" (also correct) or "dwānən".
And we say usually also "ţikis" the plural of one "ticket" instead of "ţikiyāt" (also correct).
But most likely this linguistic phenomenon is influenced by the Tongue of the Andalusian Moriscos and Spanish not the Roman Latin.
Interesting video. Would love to see some sources
pretty intresting Topic! Never really occured to me to think about the leftovers of latin in Africa
Accurate, interesting, exciting, important...I do subscribe
I took Spanish and Latin (and German) in high school; I really enjoyed learning them (and no, I'm not fluent in any of them.) I like to think I learned more about the English language by studying 'foreign' languages.
So, Rome dealt with overpopulation by sending some citizens to North Africa; but now, Italy doesn't want anyone from Africa to step foot on their shores.😶
My understanding is that there were no /v/ sounds in Latin. The letter "v" was a /u/ sound. When it was at the beginning of a syllable, it created what we might now call a /w/. So it wasn't /v/ becoming /b/. It was /w/ becoming /b/ in Iberia. Also, "c" was always /k/. That means that the saying "Veni, vidi, vici" was pronounced "weni, widi, wiki."
Super interesting
as an italian i love this channel and ur latin is perfect!! new subscriber gained!
interesting piece of this puzzle is the vandals, when invading they really did a number to the roman colonies that remained untouched after rome fell.
NativLang has a great video about this exact topic!
In Portuguese one of the words we use for face is "rosto"
Interesting, I speak spanish and it seems some of the quirks we have like short e and o transforming into ie and ue come from african latin
Thank you, this is a topic that I became quite interested in a few years ago. For a long time, I tried to understand how the Arabs managed to stay so long in Spain and this is maybe a part of the answer. The people who came to Spain spoke a variety of Latin, which was still quite close to the Latin spoken there. It certainly made communication much easier. But the sources are not very rich on this topic I'm afraid. The political gains to present each of the protagonists as being a Foreigner or a "Roumi" masked the reality of populations who spoke similar languages.
Maybe this video about African Latin may interest you
th-cam.com/video/Y01C1BKu8Tk/w-d-xo.htmlsi=7tBbrKyyKOv6W72y
I'm not quite sure. The Maghreb is a large country. The Romanized parts were the rich parts, that were part of the empire. Their inhabitants would less likely migrate to Spain. They mostly correspond to the North-Eastern part (Carthage at the center).
But the South-Western parts, corresponding to most of Morocco, were not romanized, were not part of the Empire, weren't Christian, converted quickly to islam, and were much poorer.
Those poorer parts of the Maghreb when the roman state collapsed (byzantine) invaded the richer parts (east and coasts) and spain at the same time.
@@user-jt8vj1vm6y You are certainly right, but the presence of Arabs in Spain lasted for 700 years and they were various waves of migrants from Maghreb...
@@lesfreresdelaquote1176 There was a Roman Limes (frontier) in the Maghreb, much like in Britain (Hadrian's wall), separating the south-western non-romanized parts from the north-eastern romanized parts.
In fact the word "berber" itself comes probably from romanized berbers themselves (who were all roman citizens, by the 7th century) and that's how they called the non-romanized people of the South-West (barbarus), a word that entered Arabic (as Barbari) then back to latin languages.
The collapse of the Empire under the Arabs allowed these people to invade both the richer romanized coast and Iberia.
Their heartland would be the Middle Atlas in Morocco, from where they threatened and later invaded the Roman Empire.
And their quick conversion to islam prevented any reconquista from happening in the Maghreb, as the romanized christian coastal populations were numerically matched by these southern "Moroccan" non romanized people, who converted to islam and took power, and later founded many dynasties (Almoravids, Almohads, etc).
im just curious but what are your sources
Good point.
This is a really good question i’ve asked miself 0:41
Imagine a universe where Rome made it down to like Mozambique and Africa just ends up speaking latin
Like the purtugese get down there and they just can semi understand eachother
Sounds cool, that would be a really interesting idea for a conlang!
@@TheMiluProject what's that :0
Well,Mozambique speaks portuguese.
@@dhsf5937 not a native language.
Do you know if greek colonies in libya (cyrene) had any (hellenic) influence on amazigh whatsoever?
At least in any east-north African dialects
The answer is probably no, there would have been vulgar latin dialects but the invasions of the Germanics, Berbers and Arabs would have replaced and displaced the Afro-Romans.
If you look at north-african history, it was extremely close to europe before the Islamic invasion. France, spain, and the barbaric were all region with light skin indo European berbers that were latinised and christianised, and came under germanic control for a period of time, with the ERE retaking control at some point, giving them a very close cultural background. If the north Africans had repelled the Islamic invasions, the probability of them evolving into european style kingdoms, following through the renaissance claiming the carthaginian antiquity and then colonizing brazil would have been very likely in my opinion. Also Sub-Saharan W-Africa would have been unlikely to become islamic.
Awesome, thanks for the insights!
Glad I read to comments first, I was about to write something very similar.
Betacism is also commum on the North of Portugal
Because of Galego/Spanish
If a sort of Latin was spoken in Algeria until the 15th century why don't we have any records of African Romance?
Guess what
Because it was probably spoken in remote rural places
There's this new belief system in the region that's aggressively anti-intellectual to the point that believing in cause and effect is considered apostasy, and tends to try and destroy anything alien to it.
I would not say that b and v were confused. The thing is that v started as u and thus in shifting to a labial glide and then the fricative, it would just have been assoicated the the closest thing natural to the phonetics of the people using the language. For instnance, there is no modern equivalent of v in Arabic. B does not have it fricative counterpart. So Latin/romance words used in Arabic tend to have a B-sound in place of a V-sound. And learners of Languages with the differentiation between the two have trouble hearing the difference. for them it can be that they consider them the same sound... I speak from experience with my Arabic speaking friends. Hebrew even uses he same symbol with or without a dot to represent the difference between Bet and Vet or course, it also has Vav, where Arabic does not have all of these.
Honestly.
Despite it being still Arab- to an extent- the closest modern "African" romance language (more on the Arab-African, Semitic, side) would be Malti
However, of course, Malti is still Semitic and not properly part of the Romance family, you can't ignore the heavy Sicilian (and French, specifically Norman) influence that took place over hundreds of years of Maltese history.
I'd say Malti is a pseudo-African-romance language - No real offshoot of actual African Romance; but a definite family cousin. A Latin Maghrebi.
Maltese can't be an example, at least it is my opinion. The romance influence over maltese came from sicilian specifically and later italian, which are not african romance languages
@esti-od1mz I know, that's the specifically romance side of the language. However, malti is still a Semitic language hailing from Maghrebi; which technically counts as African. Albeit Arabian.
Which is why I see it as a pseudo successor to African romance. Not technically coming from that extinct family, but technically classifying as being similar through it's language creation
@@Lightclaw I understand your point, kind of. But I would like to make clear that romance influence over maltese derive from italoromance. I heard that some northern africans still use some ancient romance vocabulary, maybe the same from the ancient afro romance
@@esti-od1mz I know. I don't mean to say Malti is a derivative of actual African Romance. But more so the geographically linguistic influences that occurred upon Malti is practically akin to the idea of African Romance, to an extent- being the North African Arab influence which takes the majority of the language alongside the romance influence (via the Sicilian language/dialetti).
Of course, it's not a true African Romance Language. Just to the extent of the geographical similarities of such is quite interesting.
But yeah, no one, not even myself- who is Maltese- would classify Malti as a true African Romance.
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Yyeeeeeesssssss.
Even longer answer: "Carthage, The Punic Wars, the Barbary Coast. They spoke _Latin_ when they were not being the 'Corairs of Umbar,' by Tolkien's analogy, or the 'Calormenes' by good ol' Clive Staples (Jack) Lewis."
@@normanclatcherWait we’re supposed to be the corsairs of Umbar?!😢
@@AlexIncarnate911 ...you guys really _don't_ know your history, do ya? 👏🏻😉
@@normanclatcher Well, I do know about the barbary pirates and the slave markets. It's not taught in schools though. In contrast, our "education" is oddly overenthused when talking about European colonialism and American settlers (being sarcastic here). But still, it sucks to generalise whole civilisations like that on both sides. I don't like it when Arabs or blacks or whoever else do it and I don't like it when Europeans do it. I'm not into overarching narratives and ideologically charged claims in general. I had enough of it for one lifetime. That said, I still admire Tolkien's work for its artistic and to an extent moral value.
@@AlexIncarnate911 I do too. And at any rate, what you guys seem to be needing is a better national/regional myth for yourselves. Disney's 'Wish' supposedly has Amazigh characters, "Lawrence of Arabia" is my go-to for looking at Bedouins, but my favorite examples of places shot in North Africa in media are Tatooine, which has been shot in Tunisia going all the way back to the first (and some subsequent) _Star Wars_ movie, and, of all places, "Prince of Persia" was shot in Layoune, ''Western Sahara.''
Sad to say, I know very little about Morrocan culture or history aside from the Moors themselves and Granada, and that one girl who went viral roasting tf out of Ronaldo after the World Cup in Qatar. _Algeria_ knows what it is because its history is inextricably in that love-hate relationship with France. Albert Camus, mister "myth of sisyphus" himself, was born in Algeria, just like how Freddie Mercury of 'Queen' was born in Zanzibar, off the coast of Tanzania. If they seem European, that's true to their choices and opportunities and paths to find success, but their roots are as they are, on the fringes of the still mostly-underknown African continent.
...Long story short, most 'western education' is gonna be Eurocentric and paint the economically-advantageous in the 'superior' light. But, if your specific, local, cultural history is, in truth, light-skinned Mediterranean Raiders and pillagers? Desert Vikings? A Jack Sparrow of Tripoli, but with a Turban? ...all ya gotta do is even *vaguely* tie it to your guys' past, and it becomes a "Carmen Sandiego" thing, wherein by giving the kids a figure or lens upon which to view themselves as or alongside someone who really _mattered_ in North African history or politics, someone *badass,* that's what'll hopefully inspire the next generation of archaeologists to get out there and *dig up the truth about whoever your past heroes really were.*
...I'll go so far as to say that I believe someone here, reading this? Can or will be the one to challenge these perceptions.
I've stated my side; it's time for you guys now, to tell your own stories...
Would mozarabic or cape verdian creole count?
Wasn't mozarabic spoken in andaluz tho? i might be wrong
@@damiangomez8540 Well yes hut it was spoken by Arabs and africans that arived to the peninsula
I'd say Cape Verdean Creole defo counts.
@@danielcunha4377it doesn’t since it’s not a Romance language, it’s part of the Portuguese creole language family
@@FrancisTheBerd Sorry but Cape Verde isn't part of Africa, as understood at the time.
Africa meant the Maghreb, with white people.
Please don't mix it with a Subsaharan country thousands of miles away.
The "us" suffixes in Algerian Arabic seem to be of latin origin, and they are added to some Arabic words and names.
For example Kahlouche, Amrouche, Bekkouche, etc.
The "s" seem to turn "sh" in most words, even in pure latin words like "carus" (Gerrouche), which means jewel (in French the same latin word gives "cher", expensive).
And the L becomes R in many words, for example the latin Soldi (roman currency) becomes Sordi (plural Swared, money), and Hospitalis becomes Sbitar.
However, the problem is that it's difficult to differenciate original latin from the Maghreb and later borrowing from south European languages.
Can you write the meaning of these words "amrouche," and "bekkouche" in the Algerian dialect?
@@yassineanassine7905 bekkouche means deaf, amrouche is a masculine name, kahlouche means black,
@@user-jt8vj1vm6y i see , thanks
Most of these things sound suspiciously similar to Spanish
I’m planning to revive Africanus
Good luck with that, sounds exciting! 😁
Is this a redo of the older video?
Although they do explore similar topics, this video looks specifically at whether there was a North African Romance language, whereas my other video looks at the possibility of a British Romance language.
Parts of west North Africa still had Roman traditions up until the Islamic conquest. If the Muslims never came then it's likely many new Latin languages would have emerged.
Huh in portuguese "Face" is "Rosto"
This video idea was ripped from nativlang. th-cam.com/video/Y01C1BKu8Tk/w-d-xo.html
Haven't seen that yet so I cant speak to the amount of overalp but you do know multiple videos can be made on the same topic right
ROMA INVICTA
No