End of the Sidereal-Tropical Zodiac Debate in Vedic Astrology - Ernst Wilhelm Debunked
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ค. 2024
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This video lays out the clear historical inaccuracies and unfounded claims from Ernst' Wilhelm's " Mystery of the Zodiac" to show that no such mystery in fact exists outside of his own paper.
SCHOLARLY REFERENCES FOR FURTHER READING:
THE INTERACTIONS OF ANCIENT ASTRAL SCIENCE:
Current research and definitions of interactions between astrological cultures.
amzn.to/2H3nPnx
ASTRONOMICAL PAPYRI FROM OXYRHYNCHUS:
Groundbreaking research on sidereal usage on papyri from Egypt/Hellenistic times well past Ptolemy's times.
amzn.to/2YdK7sp
FORUM DISCUSSION:
A basic refutal of the basis of Wilhelm's theory.
skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtop...
MARTIN GANSTEN:
Basic overview of the history from a real scholar-practitioner:
www.martingansten.com/ts.php
FOSS RESEARCH:
Real peer reviewed research on sidereal astrology using straight Vedic methods:
www.ayurastro.com/articles/tw...
PTOLEMY'S TETRABIBLOS:
Chapter 4 is referenced in the video lecture showing Ptolemy giving astrological usage of sidereal signs.
www.sacred-texts.com/astro/pt...
NICK KOLLERSTROM: THE STAR ZODIAC OF ANTIQUITY:
Proving sidereal horoscopes prominently used in western tradition using math.
www.cultureandcosmos.org/pdfs/...
PRECISION INDIA PRIOR TO 1200:
Albeit a eurocentric work by PIngree, does provide evidence of knowledge of precession between at least 200 to 500AD in India.
www.culturavedica.org/pdf/prec...
THE ORIGINALITY OF INDIAN MATHEMATICAL ASTRONOMY:
More details and mathematical analysis of ancient Indian methods.
www.raymondm.co.uk/Indian1.pdf
NICK KOLLERSTROM: ON THE MEASUREMENT OF CELESTIAL LONGITUDE IN ANTIQUITY:
Article showing sidereal coordinates in Egyptian, Babylonian,Greek,etc. systems.
www.brepolsonline.net/doi/abs...
FORUM DISCUSSION:
People showing the gross inaccuracies in Vic DiCara's erroneous historical views.
skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtop...
FORUM DISCUSSION:
A long discussion on sidereal versus tropical.
skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtop...
![มองหน้ากันไม่ติด (Awkward) - โอ๊ต ปราโมทย์ FEAT. MAIYARAP [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4b02SY_r6Gw/mqdefault.jpg)
*** For those of you watching this video, please note these are not my opinions being expressed, but a summary of the current scholarly understanding of the historical record. Please look at source material before forming your own opinions on any of this:
THE INTERACTIONS OF ANCIENT ASTRAL SCIENCE:
Current research and definitions of interactions between astrological cultures.
amzn.to/2H3nPnx
ASTRONOMICAL PAPYRI FROM OXYRHYNCHUS:
Groundbreaking research on sidereal usage on papyri from Egypt/Hellenistic times well past Ptolemy's times.
amzn.to/2YdK7sp
FORUM DISCUSSION:
A basic refutal of the basis of Wilhelm's theory.
skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6723&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
MARTIN GANSTEN:
Basic overview of the history from a real scholar-practitioner:
www.martingansten.com/ts.php
FOSS RESEARCH:
Real peer reviewed research on sidereal astrology using straight Vedic methods:
www.ayurastro.com/articles/twitter-followers-biased-to-astrological-charts-of-celebrities
PTOLEMY'S TETRABIBLOS:
Chapter 4 is referenced in the video lecture showing Ptolemy giving astrological usage of sidereal signs.
www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/index.htm
NICK KOLLERSTROM: THE STAR ZODIAC OF ANTIQUITY:
Proving sidereal horoscopes prominently used in western tradition using math.
www.cultureandcosmos.org/pdfs/1-2/1_2_Kollerstrom_Star_Zodiac.pdf
PRECISION INDIA PRIOR TO 1200:
Albeit a eurocentric work by PIngree, does provide evidence of knowledge of precession between at least 200 to 500AD in India.
www.culturavedica.org/pdf/precession_and_trepidation_in_indian_astronomy
THE ORIGINALITY OF INDIAN MATHEMATICAL ASTRONOMY:
More details and mathematical analysis of ancient Indian methods.
www.raymondm.co.uk/Indian1.pdf
NICK KOLLERSTROM: ON THE MEASUREMENT OF CELESTIAL LONGITUDE IN ANTIQUITY:
Article showing sidereal coordinates in Egyptian, Babylonian,Greek,etc. systems.
www.brepolsonline.net/doi/abs/10.1484/M.DDA-EB.4.00714
FORUM DISCUSSION:
People showing the gross inaccuracies in Vic DiCara's erroneous historical views.
skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9741&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=6714f51a7672c42d75f829e6125c10c0
FORUM DISCUSSION:
A long discussion on sidereal versus tropical.
skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7691&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I deeply appreciate the amount of time you put into gathering this evidence. I thank you profusely.
As much as I swear by vedic astrology Ernst birth chart calculator works for me.
all I know is learning sidereal astrology changed my life, the accuracy is so strongly there
*For the record, someone deleted a post and subsequent lengthy discussion asking why I don't debate Vic - well I made an offer to him to come on my channel for a debate, and he refused to do it since I wanted to do it live. He put all these weird rules of trading off pre-recorded videos and didn't want to have an in-person open discussion about the topic.
Another commenter on that thread also shared some e-mail exchanges between Vic and Ernst where they basically shut down around these topics when put to the test on similar material as presented in this video. Feel free to get in touch if you want to see what kind of "debate" ensues when pressed to answer to this information.
Can you please explain to me how someone like Amber Rose has a Mahapurush Bhadra yoga (sidereally). Her birth time is an A rating so it's quite accurate.
By the way this is a purely research based question. Your input will be very helpful.
I don't know who she is, but a quick look at her bio it seems she is not only a "singer" (seems more like she's been produced by her boyfriends, but that is another discussion) but she has also published a book, curated a succesful computer app, and even stars in her own talk show - sounds like an entrepreneur to me.
Could you please give me your own analysis and why this placement in this woman's chart is troubling or confusing you?
Just curious Jesse, have you ever taken a proper course on Jyotisha?
And her birth time is from memory - so just sort of accurate by the way. Any time that is on the dot like 5.30 is questionable. Besides, every chart needs some rectification Jesse. Out of respect, please consider keeping comments on point with video material, and if you want to learn to look at charts go get involved with my website or another teacher you resonate with. Thanks.
Hey Jesse. I'm seriously interested in how your reading this chart and the source of question, can't help if I don't see your reasoning. Please share.
Sir,which node do you prefer while analysis of chart?...true or mean node for rahu ketu ?
Until further notice - mean node on birth charts, true node on prashna and muhurta.
Let's start a project to re discover astrology from the beginning. At the end of the day it's all about the truth. Anyone interested?
Only listened up to about 12 min. Don't know if you eventually get to that point. But there would have been a period in history when Sidereal would have been the same as Tropical. So during that period of history it would be irrelevant as to which system was used since they would have been the same.
Ok, but then if tropical was unaware that it would shift, and now it has significantly... Why are we still using it????
@@ExaminerCross Because both coincided during a span of time that doesn't mean 'unaware'. Remember before the time it coincided they were too seperate.
It's a choice to use either one, or both.
Either can be used as a symbolic reference as to the reality that there is a separation between the two.
All astrology in the end is a form of Divinity; meaning that it is not an absolute science, although it gives the appearance, e.g. sun in such a such sign means something specifically, a certain aspect means something else, and so on, etc.
In the end it is what the astrologer uses as their technique/s to allow their 'answers' to come through as to what is being stated.
Most astrologers who only read based on technique and the implied meaning of those techniques cannot make consistent and precise predictions. Most of the time they are vague and leave room for interpretation, e.g. many results could have fallen into the proclaimed prediction and asserted as having made a succesful prediction. Those however who use technique along with their Consciousness of Divinity make, although rare, make very precise predictions that leave no doubt(arguably) as to the veracity of their prediction.
@@babajaiy8246 all science is divine
@@ExaminerCross Yet you missed the point. Science is not Divine if the Divine is not allowed through by only using the mind. I already know what you're thinking on that one - That is why you missed the point. If you insist on looking at it from another level, then you would not have asked your original question - As it's already Divine. So which level do you wish to precede with Instead of jumping back and forth?
@@ExaminerCross because the stars map points in the universe/deep space...they aren't in themselves the energies we're describing when we describe a sign. as the planets moved tropical still marks where those energies have always been. that's my understanding
Thanks for contributing to the conversation, Darshan Project :) I am a Tropical Vedic Astrologer, and I appreciate you expressing your reasoning. I am recently going to be putting videos of my own out about the "Tropical Rashi Camp's Perspective."
I find that often this debate gets hairy in the details of things. The Surya Siddhanta argument here could basically go either way. The argument that those old cultures around 0 AD to 500 AD or so being mostly sidereal is a moot point, because thats when the constellation Asvini did meetup with the Sun's Tropical position at the The Vernal Equinox. So yes, many people were blending the themes of Rashi Aries with the themes of Nakshatra Asvini, or for another more common example, blending Magha with Leo. But that might have been true then, but is not true now - Because the Vernal Equinix now occurs when the Sun is in the nakshatra of Uttara Bhadraphada. Aries does not inherently contain the essence of Asvini; nor vice versa. People at that time were also using Tropical charts, as they were the same chart. Only till about 1000 yrs later or so would the Tropical coordinates be noticeably off, and that the bridge between Tropical and Sidereal became obvious
Ernst's article isn't perfect, as its like more than 12 yrs old now, I believe? His article was meant to raise questions about things that "Sidereal-Rashi" astrologers take for granted, and it this has sent ripples throughout the astrology world.
Maybe we can do an online interview some time? Let me if you're interested mate, i think we could make a good show of it.
Your an apologist if you say " Ernst's article isn't perfect", it's downright ahistorical and even though it is 12 years old the information was available at that time for him to not make such utter blunders in his work. If he is going to pass himself off as a "researcher" he needs to do a little better than that, like starting with sources. If your going to blatantly lie just to raise some questions, you have a serious ethical problem. Please read all the sources given here, as well as e-mail exchanges with Ernst given below to see what kind of mind you are dealing with there.
I'd imagine you are cozy with Vic as well. Perhaps you can figure out why he keeps lying about the Babylonian's usage of the "18 sidereal/12 tropical divisions". Totally false sense of the progression there in terms of the history. The original Zodiac was built on 12 sidereal divisions. Some claim they didn't know the difference at the time, but it's a moot point since they were interpreting against the stars, but I don't have time or energy left to rehash all the sources I've provided here. If you actually care enough you'll spend the year or two reading all of it like I have - then maybe an interview would be worth something - otherwise I have little left to add in any of this and I really don't care what kind of astrology anybody practices, but don't blatantly misrepresent things. Seriously, read what I have here - it is not my "reasoning", just sharing some facts real scholars have dug up. I'm a nobody.
@@TheDarshanProject Are a majority of American'S logical/critical thinking so in the toilet? The above snowflake writes..... '' The argument that those old cultures around 0 AD to 500 AD or so being mostly sidereal is a moot point, because thats when the constellation Asvini did meetup with the Sun's Tropical position at the The Vernal Equinox.''
How the FUCK is ''Sidereal'' related to Sun's tropical position coinciding with Asvini? Does this snowflake have any clue regarding solar and lunar months or luni-solar calendar?Are all American'S so dense? It shows up in your elect President Trump!
@@tvasthinag3701 Well let's just say I'm going to start telling people I'm from Canada from now on...
Did you ever do a video about this
@@ExaminerCrosshe's got a couple hour Livestream and a short video with some convincing arguments on tropical zodiac he made a couple months ago in his channel, highly recommend
No need for so much tension, if you can predict event to day like Ernst does, then your system is good else it's nothing more than noise
Indeed no need for the tension Ernst has created - I'm just pointing out simple historical facts here so people aren't confused by Ernst. No noise on my end.
As for prediction - I'd love to see Ernst's system and it's outcomes but he doesn't give readings so I'm not sure where your comment is coming from. Do you follow his teachings?
I have a question: What is tropical zodiac measuring, even if unintentionally doing so?
To measure data of a fixed point is still measuring something. What will we see in the records when Aries returns to that original point? Is there an Indian term or practice for reckoning to this fixed point?
It's got to be some kind of useable data, I'm just not sure what it would be.
Seasons. And no one said it can't be used in astrological lore for certain purposes.
So if sidereal is “accurate” why do my tropical placements perfectly accurate to my personality, characteristics, feelings and most of all physiological appearance are accurate to my tropical chart vs the sidereal? What do you do in this case where your sidereal chart does not accurately describe the person that you are after 30+ years?
Wouldn’t you say rather then trusting the scholars and “academics” to instead trust you feeling and intuition..
I would say you clearly haven't actually considered the actual arguments put forth in this video, since it has absolutely nothing to do with astrological techniques. That is an entirely different debate that absolutely no one will win with the current state of internet astrology. If you have a comment that actually deals with the content in this video please feel free to engage, otherwise you are simply in the wrong place.
Compelling presentation worth a subscription......lots to weigh up and consider ....right and wrong has zero interest and yet what a fantastic debate
I think that if you want to debunk this very clear and specific scholar maybe you should bother to show as some legible signs... at least. Not saying that you are wrong, but it doesn´t help your cause that we can´t read them.
I'm not debunking any scholars here, the real scholars are clear on these questions.
If you are going to leave a comment, please edit it so that it is grammatically correct and I can actually respond to it as well. What on earth do you mean " maybe you should bother to show as some legible signs..."? If you are referring to the slides, unfortunately TH-cam's algorithms may not have been friendly to the slides I uploaded - but the fact and sources are all here. Put in your own efforts and you will see how Ernst is completely inventing a narrative without sources or engaging when asked. That is not how a real scholar works. Ever.
@@TheDarshanProject The slides yes. Not legible.Well, one of them. And yes, I wrote "as" in stead of "us" (now corrected). Did that make it impossible to read my post or was there anything more that you stumbled over? I wonder how you read a chart if you need that amount of clarity...
I think you missed the point: YOU don´t consider him a scholar, I don´t have a clue, I´m completely new into Vedic astrology. But many people does listen to him and... Never mind, do as you want.
Also a bad scholar, a wrongful scholar... Is still a scholar! Sorry, but it´s a semantic fact, look it up! ;-)
After reading your arrogant answer I´m actually more prone to believe in Ernst Wilhelm, not less. Isn´t that funny! ;-)
Your chiding me about clarity and are not even clear in your own statements - and now I'm the arrogant one?
Ernst's field is not history, so no he is not a scholar of history. It is clear if you've read the actual scholarship on it that I am pointing to you here. Whole huge list of resources for you to see for yourself I've provided, and it's crystal clear in orthography and ideology so no reason to get confused.
Now If my tone alone makes you think I am "wrong", remember this isn't about belief. But with statements like this, you probably belong over there with Vic and Ernst. Most people I've talked to in that camp appeal more to emotions and piece meal facts based on opinion. Have a good day.
A bit off tangent but what is wrong with using True Sidereal? You've heard of the Mastering The Zodiac channel right?
Because the entire nature of the signs is defined by 30 degrees due to the meeting of Sun and Moon 12 times in a year. A lot of depth in there and what unfolds due to it. The math is important. What some new age person makes up as their own system is their own business, but if you want to understand the masters of the past, this is key.
@@frankvazquez5974 Have you tested True Sidereal and turned out to be flawed?
One cannot just test everything out there in the youtube world - and once you have a teacher, hopefully they can clear enough doubts to show a path through the weeds.
I had no issue with the audio. I’m confused as to why there even is a debate. With astronomy can’t we just look up at the current position of the planets, track the procession of the equinox’s, correlate the results with the astrological cultures whose texts we are reading to know what the condition of the sky was when they were around. ? All this other stuff seems unnecessary and as fallacious as quoting the Bible when justifying a belief: e.g. this books said this, which I interpret as this, which some other guys thought was like this , which was translated like this. Etc etc ad Absurdum.
Yes, it is pretty simple when you read the scholarship provided above. No mystery here.
Long stories short there are two problems we can't solve with this approach:
problem 1. in astrology the zodiac signs are all defined as 30 degrees wide wheras in astronomy some constellations are wider and some are narrower, and apparently there's a thirteenth constellation that's not represented in the zodiac signs. So if we must directly match astrology with astronomy then astrology has to be reinvented from scratch.
Problem 2. We don't know why astrology apparently works. If it's due to seasonal changes on earth having their effect on people's personalities and behavior then the tropical system which projects the zodiac signs to the sky relative to the position of the sun as observed from earth would make more sense. If however we accept that events in the universe are influenced by divine powers whose actions are coincidentally reflected by the transits of planets which we are then able to use as some sort of a clock through astrology then sidereal would presumably make more sense.
this video needs a redo. You could be right but it's hard to follow because the quality in the audio and the visuals is poor. Having the links, though, is super helpful and much appreciated for someone wanting to dig deeper on the subject. Thanks for that!
Yeah, maybe when I rake in all those millions from making these videos for free I'll have time to do that. In the mean time put on some headphones or get an audio boosting app and maybe listen? It's all in there - production quality doesn't alter historical facts.
@@TheDarshanProject lol you are so intense dude
I doubt you’ll redo this one, but boosting your audio in the future would be helpful. It’s a strain without headphones.
There's an app to add to chrome that will boost audio if needed.
Yes! Only sidereal is accurate. Sidereal astrology has literally saved my life. It is the truth.
Thank you for quelling the doubts that Vic put in me. I respect him a lot, but saying that the ancients used the tropical rashis = squeezing all of the constellations into sets of 30 degrees, regardless of how wide the constellations actually are. And measuring the world from the perspective of the planets, not the fixed stars, is completely false.
He can understand Sanskrit, and he is an extremely intelligent man. It baffles me how he and Ernst can be wrong about this.
Thank you for the depth of your research 🙏
But I have a question, why, how, and when did mainstream astrology become tropical? Who was the first person to make that mistake?
Many people blame Ptolemy for this happening due to the influence of his work and conflation of the two.
@@frankvazquez5974 yes, I blame him too. But I blame those who followed him even more.
Instead of focusing your attention on 'Debunking Ernst' it would be wiser for you to improve accuracy with sidereal system (which fails terribly).
Please provide your data and references for the accuracy of any system.
LOL! The Babylonians already attached a 12 fold Zodiac to the constellations ca. 3000 years before present times. How is this even debated? The Greeks got this from the Egyptians or Babylonians/Mesopotamia.
Right? I guess you can say anything and still garner a TH-cam following these days. Then again all this from a country with a president who also doesn't believe in climate change and other such things. Kali Yuga at its finest.
Yip! Then again this whole cocept of planets having anything to do with an individuals destiny is not only total bunk but extremely narcissistic of Astrologers to pre suppose that of all the living species in the visible universe, just the tiniest of weeniest species on the tiniest of wweeniest planet are somehow special and effected by moving bodies light years away. Get a
fucking job numb nuts!
@@ronra2230 but why would you want to use Lahiri Ayanamsa if the babalonians didn't specifically use that Ayanamsa?
Great video. Have you tried to have a debate with Wilhelm about this?
Thanks for the comment. I talked to Ernst some time ago to try to get his "research" on his methods, though ended up getting a sales pitch for his courses, and he didn't seem too interested in actually backing up anything he says for the general public.
More recently in December of 2018 an acquaintance that had commented on this video tried to get some evidence from him on an e-mail exchange and seems he hasn't picked up a history book since writing this paper umpteen years ago, so not only is he not interested in proving anything he says or keeping up with real research and scholars in these fields - but he is not interested in "debate". I have posted the e-mail exchange below if you, or anyone else, would like to see his capacity for rationale and studied thought on this subject. It is posted in parts since comments can only be so long here. I would point out that his claim to test all techniques working on tropical better is interesting seeing that the first similar test I tried, and provided to the public, suggested sidereal working better...
I have also offered to debate Vic, but he refused me since I wanted to do it live - so if I find any time or energy to continue any of this I may make one more video on some of his claims as well, but not sure what the point is anymore.
-------------------------
ERNST WRITES IN REPLY TO INITIAL E-MAIL REQUESTING HIS EVIDENCE:
Here are a few additions to your points:
First, I tested all techniques I knew for 2 years on both tropical and sidereal and tropical won every test. I still test every new technique I learn with sidereal and not a single one has done better with sidereal. Due to this, I see no reason to use sidereal rasis AT ALL.
The Babylonians had a 12 fold division that was tropical and an 18 fold division that was steller and this stellar division was related to the moon. Why did te moon have 18 mansions and not 27 like the hindus? Maybe because it takes 18.6 years for rahu and ketu and the eclipise cycle to go around once and so they broke the circle into 18. But its erroneous to think this was converted to 12 rasis.
Yes, BPHS says to add ayanamsa, so that uses sidereal, however, BPHS is full of corruption in the form we have it as it was recompiled from scraps in the late 1800s by someone who travelled all over india looking for them. There are parts that were never in the original version. The original version was not available in India even as far back as the 11th century. So we can't take BPHS as an authority without error.
Vedic astrology does not consider the signs to relate to season but to the relationship of the sun to the earth. When the sun is furthest south its Capricorn, when its furthest north, its Cancer, when its half way its aries or libra. End of story. Works in northern and southern hemisphere.
So, that I all I have to say on this. I don’t have time to debate with people. Try every technique you know on 100 charts and then decide.
-----------------------------------------------
Hi Ernst,
Appreciate your response to my queries. At the outset I would like to mention that I am not at all impressed by your work(or lack of facts) put in your feedback. I will assume and give you the benefit of doubt that either you are not aware of the timelines and concepts(not just about Astrology but Research and Analysis in general) or have not researched about the topics enough yet. Also, I have added Mr.Kenneth Bowser in this discussion because he has spent all his professional life on this topic whose works were starting point on my journey to researching Western Sidereal reckoning and I would like him to chime in if he wishes to in the spirit of putting all the facts on the table before jumping to conclusions.
Now, I will breakdown every part of your response step by step and show it's self-contradictory nature and sheer lack of rational implications:
1. You write and I quote : ' I tested all techniques I knew for 2 years on both tropical and sidereal and tropical won every test. I still test every new technique I learn with sidereal and not a single one has done better with sidereal. Due to this, I see no reason to use sidereal rasis AT ALL. '
I have studied Engineering(Prodn) and Managerial Science and have worked in large scale research projects in various capacities. So, I have undergone training in fundamental Qualitative and Quantitative research methods even though my core expertise is in Engineering. First, testing something and just plainly concluding is not equivalent to scientific method of research. Second, before even testing, the methodology, design of experiment, framework, hypothesis MUST be SOUND´and on SOLID grounds then comes TESTING. As far as the outcome is concerned, it DOES NOT MATTER even if what you tested works better on tropical Zodiac. It does not mean it is better and does not have to be accepted. Where is your methodology? How did you test your hypothesis? Where is the design? Where is the framework?Why did you use what you did? What is the inherent bias of your experiment? What is the statistical power of your study? Even before I analyze your results(which is the final and LEAST IMPORTANT STEP IN RESEARCH!), the ONUS and RESPONSIBILITY is on you to atleast OUTLINE the literature, methodology, design, and statistical tools used succinctly. Just because you tested something, does not mean it is valid and true.
2. You write and I quote : 'The Babylonians had a 12 fold division that was tropical and an 18 fold division that was steller and this stellar division was related to the moon. Why did te moon have 18 mansions and not 27 like the hindus? Maybe because it takes 18.6 years for rahu and ketu and the eclipise cycle to go around once and so they broke the circle into 18. But its erroneous to think this was converted to 12 rasis. '
I am hoping you are not serious with the above response! If you haven't looked into Neugebauer, roschberg, Fagan, Robson and Bowser's work, I would post the links here so you understand the lack of serious scholarship in your response.
www.westernsiderealastrology.com/fagan-november-1953
www.westernsiderealastrology.com/tma
3. You write and I quote, : 'Yes, BPHS says to add ayanamsa, so that uses sidereal, however, BPHS is full of corruption in the form we have it as it was recompiled from scraps in the late 1800s by someone who travelled all over india looking for them. There are parts that were never in the original version. The original version was not available in India even as far back as the 11th century. So we can't take BPHS as an authority without error. '
This is cherry picking of responses and I can say the same about any accretive text like Surya Siddhanta etc. I am surprised that you are arguing in this fashion. I was expecting more seriousness because you came across as honest in your presentation in videos etc.
4.Vedic astrology does not consider the signs to relate to season but to the relationship of the sun to the earth. When the sun is furthest south its Capricorn, when its furthest north, its Cancer, when its half way its aries or libra. End of story. Works in northern and southern hemisphere
End of story? You think I will let you slide so easily? Rasi has multitude of meanings in Classical Sanskrit and in Rig Vedik Sanskrit it has been mentioned only once in a different context. Rasi means a 'Number' or a notation : Number 1(Rasi) : x, Number 2(Rasi): y and it can similarly be extrapolated to a 'Cluster' of numbers. It is purely a mathematical concept. Furthermore, Rasi(Nakshatras light through Sun across Earth) in Surya Siddhanta is referred to in terms of a Zodiac : Aries, Taurus etc. If you claim that the rasis get their MODAL nature from sun's motion relative to earth, then you are PRE SUPPOSING that 'Uttarayana' corresponds to Sun turning Northwards on Winter Solstice and this is supposed to have a Cardinal nature. This can only be explained by changes in terrestrial plane(Earth) which has got everything to ddo with seasons. If not, you need to explain your presupposition! Why when Sun is furthest South it is CARDINAL Capricorn? This can only be explained in terms of season and length of day in NORTHERN HEMISPHERE!
above reply continues.....
However, this is not even the 'Meat of the issue'. You are yet to address the following :
1. How would you explain precession of not just the equinoxes but also seasonal precession owing to Milankovitch cycles and these anomalies are not just with respect to fixed sky but also with respect to Earth?
2. How would you explain the symbols of the Zodiac(12 symbols) which were originally sidereal (Egyptian mainly) in your tropical Zodiac?
If you have divorced the zodiac from the constellations, then the symbols representing the sign become invalid for the new zodiac.
3. How would you explain the error in tropical solilunar returns?(this work is published by Cyril Fagan) 4. How would you explain the modal phenomena of signs : Cardinal, fixed and mutable? Without pre-supposing Sun's ingress into Celestial intersection points to have cardinal nature and associating it with seasons on 'Tropical' terrestrial plane of observation?
4. How would you explain the exaltation degrees of planets in tropical framework after divorcing yourself from sidereal?
5. Do you have any evidence of a tropical zodiacal horoscope before 5th Century C.E?
In conclusion I would say the textual arguments are for both sidereal and tropical in a multitude of literature. However, the definitions have the scope of being adapted and updated or just ignored in lieu of new astronomical and scientific evidence. You don't need to look for the definitions/framework in the text that match with some observations in the sky . You need to look for observations in the sky that falsify your framework. This is basic scientific practice : Making fallibility a part of scope and constantly updating and testing them. And this is the best way to gain new knowledge about phenomena in nature.
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ERNST REPLIES:
Hello, I am sorry, but I don’t have time to read this and reply. I am very busy and work 7 days a week and don’t have time to rehash things with every person who comes along. I know what I am doing and I trust that you will do what is best for you.
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Dear Ernst,
Unfortunately we have to agree to disagree on the trust part of the equation. Due to my training in Engineering, I have to know how mechanisms work and more importantly how they fail. I start from a place of untrust and factoring in failure in my analysis.
Since you mentioned that you do not have time to rehash the same things to every person; then I am assuming you atleast have a tempelate or references you can direct me to as a result of replying to the same questions multiple instances. So how about we do this : Please take your time to go through my response and kindly direct me to a pertinent reference from literature to back up your claims. I would be glad to go through your response and references and would get back to you after cross checking them.
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ERNST REPLIES:
As I mentioned, I do not have time to debate these issues.
Dear Ernst,
I am not interested in debate and false dialectics. With the primary pursuit of seeking truth, I would like you to clarify and if possible furnish references for your claims in the short response that you have offered to me. The following claims :
Claim 1.First, I tested all techniques I knew for 2 years on both tropical and sidereal and tropical won every test. I still test every new technique I learn with sidereal and not a single one has done better with sidereal. Due to this, I see no reason to use sidereal rasis AT ALL
How and what did you test? Could you send me the data so that I can run a Statistical test to check the validity of the claim?
Claim 2.Babylonians had a 12 fold division that was tropical and an 18 fold division that was steller and this stellar division was related to the moon. Why did te moon have 18 mansions and not 27 like the hindus? Maybe because it takes 18.6 years for rahu and ketu and the eclipise cycle to go around once and so they broke the circle into 18. But its erroneous to think this was converted to 12 rasis.
Babylonians never used a Tropical Zodiac. I have already offered you references to that in my response. Could you show me somewhere in literature where Babylonians used a Tropical Zodiac?
Claim3BPHS says to add ayanamsa, so that uses sidereal, however, BPHS is full of corruption in the form we have it as it was recompiled from scraps in the late 1800s by someone who travelled all over india looking for them. There are parts that were never in the original version. The original version was not available in India even as far back as the 11th century. So we can't take BPHS as an authority without error.
Using terms like corruption to a text that you use for your bread and butter is just purely dishonest and disrespectful. Before making such a humongous claim, have you published or written/shown how and why this could be possible that so and so section may be corrupted?
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ERNST REPLIES:
If you have Mul.Apin you can go to tablet II, I, 10 where a list of months are given and in that they refer to the length of days changing, which means tropical.
In respect to the rest. I do not have time. I work 7 days a week and fall behind each day on important things. I just want to be left alone to do my work, but everyone keeps asking me these same things over and over again, so I am going to have to take time to explain it all in detail on youtube or something, and you, like everyone else, is just going to have to wait until I have time. Its more important to me to change lives with astrology than it is to try to convince people of ideas. I trust everyone to convince themselves in accordance with their wisdom
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Dear Ernst
1. If you have Mul.Apin you can go to tablet II, I, 10 where a list of months are given and in that they refer to the length of days changing, which means tropical.
Are you kidding me? Yup you need that to calculate latitude of the place. Has got nothing to do with tropical Zodiac. I am a trained Research Analyst. I cannot tolerate false narratives and dishonesty and ontop of that I am Greek and Stoic. So I won't let you get away your statements so easily. I offered you a fair chance to be honest and you come up with this?
A two tablet series titled Mul Apin (which means “plowstar”), that is part of the Enuma Anu Enlil series, deals extensively with astronomical lore including the simultaneous risings and settings of constellations, the time interval between the rising of paired constellations and the calendar dates that correspond to the risings and culminations of important stars in the Babylonian pantheon. Mul Apin is a compilation that took centuries to complete. Its completion date is firmly fixed at 687 B.C., and while some scholars place its genesis in the third millennium B.C., the latest work on this series strongly suggests that it dates from 1000 B.C.
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No further replies given from Mr. Wilhelm
@@TheDarshanProject You don´t really seek the truth, you know it already. Question remains why you need to proove it to others so desperately?
@Ulf Manu Quartett If you have anything of merit to say within this debate please bring it. If you have more questioning of motives and character slander while pretending to hold some high ground, please go elsewhere, I'm not interested in that.
What ayanamsa do you use?
Chitrapaksha primarily. Pending if there are important close placements I'll experiment with others for research purposes. At the end of the day though, I think the ayanamsha question (unless it is something drastic like tropical versus sidereal), is perhaps not the most important question of the day. Any chart should be rectified to some degree by an astrologer, as even a minute here or there will shift the divisional charts, and is where a lot of any error coming through ayanamsha can largely be corrected, save for perhaps some moon placements due to its speed and sensitivity of certain calculations that most people don't even use anyways.
@@TheDarshanProject Hi Darshan Project, I can’t thank you enough for this video, but Vic has just made another video where he cherry picks facts from the ancient texts and spreads misinformation to insult us believers of the sidereal truth. I would be eternally grateful to you if you could make a new video replying to this one from Vic, here’s its link:
th-cam.com/video/eONPgrK4Ot8/w-d-xo.html
I can’t bare listening to him and the other tropical Vedic’s spread lies like this any longer, and I unfortunately can’t cite texts like he wants me to. I would really appreciate your help. I feel (perhaps disproportionately) extremely insulted by what he is trying to convince the world of.
@@winxclubstellamusa Back when I was exploring these claims, I offered to debate Vic live and recorded - he refused and then blamed me for the situation claiming I was going to "attack" him on camera if it was live. My real reason for this request was that I saw how in the canned debates he framed and edited the situation unfairly, hence my request was live or nothing and he backed down. He even blocked me from his channel if I recall correctly. So there is that and I have little desire to rehash those moments - it is literally not worth the energy as even in this video he makes an analogy between himself and Jesus/Mohammed - that is the kind of mindset you are dealing with here. No "winning" there.
Sadly, I did sit through most of this video - nothing new he is presenting here. The point at which the whole argument breaks down is the Ayana Bala section of BPHS - which he doesn't deal with here despite quoting BPHS for other purposes. If we are going to take any text as an authority of how to interpret birth charts, it should be a Jyotisha text - not a purana or astronomical text. There is absolutely no doubt that they are using sidereal there in order to make the calculations and I have a video on this channel for. If you want to make a thoughtful comment over there, I would bring that up and see what he says. If he makes the excuse, as Ernest does, that there are corruptions in this text - then almost ANY argument based on textual sources cannot hold too much water unless one establishes the "authenticity" of every sloka, etc. ( which is the whole point of studying in lineages carrying knowledge which Vic has no connection to either in terms of astrology) .Yes there are corruptions in texts, but unless you can prove this or that without a shadow of a doubt - there is nothing left to stand on as any of the texts he is looking at could be "corrupted".
For me, I'm starting a pretty serious review of some of the old texts soon that is going to last quite a few years - I'll try and dig into the Sanskrit a little more and perhaps check in with some people more versed in it than me, since this is a key aspect of Vic's arguments when he starts to try and wash away the Jyotish texts that correlate rashi/nakshatras when looking at birth charts and which I am not convinced by. Luckily, this whole western astro camp are a fringe group in the Vedic astrology world and their whole brand thrives on this novelty - which is likely why Vic has to keep rehashing angry videos like this and calls for people to argue with him. I would not get too worked up about it as his anger will work on you and I don't think you can convince someone who accidentally compares themselves to Jesus Christ in terms of what they are doing. Peace to you.
@@TheDarshanProject First of all, thank you so much for replying to me! It made me as happy as Vic’s cult’s claims and attacks frustrated me to the (perhaps disproportionate) point of anger and tears. I am just extremely passionate about and faithful in Jyotish, and I despise seeing anyone spread lies about it like this.
I’m so sorry that Vic and Earnst treated you so horribly. I completely understand why you to don’t want to rehash those moments of psychological and emotional abuse tactics again. What he did was horrible and extremely immature. I know from an extensive amount of agonizing experience that there is definitely no winning with those narcissistic types who view themselves as infallible gods or prophets whom are under an unjust persecution of their agenda. The amount of ego and entitlement he has is horrifying.
And now that I think of it, because a narcissist always attracts flying monkeys and blind enablers, it makes complete sense that Vic’s fans would be as aggressive and closed minded as they are as they attack those who spread the truth and point out the flaws of their messiah.
I am honestly a shade of traumatized from how every single one of his followers whom I tried to talk with was calling us sidereal believers “ignorant”, “brainwashed”, “materialistic”, and “not spiritual enough”, not knowing that they are subconsciously projecting their own qualities outwards onto us from a juvenile us vs them dogmatic mentality.
I am also relieved that his camp is as small as it is right now, but I fear that it might grow like a cancer.
And I know that myself and millions of others will absolutely watch these videos of you diving deep into the old Sanskrit texts for however long you make them, because that type of work is desperately needed right now on the internet, especially if you collaborate with experts in Sanskrit who can quote the Jyotisha Vedanga and explain how it is explicitly sidereal. I hope that these videos will begin to be uploaded soon. What timeline do you have in mind?
Peace to you 🙏✨
@@TheDarshanProject and OMG would you believe that Vic made a pinned comment where he asked his followers if he should block or ban me!! I am oddly honored to have gotten under that liar’s skin like you have. Him and his followers are calling me “ignorant” and that they “pity me”. The inflated ego on these people is insane!
Excellent video, you make some good points in favor of the sidereal zodiac here and also poke holes in Ernst’s arguments - he doesn’t have any proper footnotes in his paper and that is a problem.
However, when you cite Cochrane, he is giving justifications on the basis of Fibonacci sequence and sacred geometry for tropical signs. It is not as clear how Cochrane’s arguments would apply to sidereal rashis.
I merely reference Cochrane because he is giving a reasoning for cardinal points based on math - that doesn't mean such a thing is "Tropical" or "Sidereal" whatsoever - that is just the zodiac Cochrane favors so it's not clear what your logic is here. I just use him as example to people like Vic/Ernst that claim that only the movement of the sun via the tropical points can explain how the signs get their characteristics which is completely false as there are many ways to derive this information, even if you think Cochrane's ideas only realte to a tropical zodiac for whatever reason. There are other ways to derive sign information as well - for example see my video on how the navamsha is derived for another way of how elements are linked from navmasha pada to the signs.
Also, in terms of your deleted comment on Greek words in Sanskrit texts. I reference above in my video that all this knowledge was being shared in the ancient days, so sure - some techniques and this or that may have come into India. In terms of specific words - you also have to remember that Greek was the lingua franca of the day, so of course some words would get into these texts and translations - that doesn't mean the WHOLE system was imported, which is absurd, given the LARGE amount of Vedic only material and techniques in Sanskrit texts, many of which is found nowhere in Hellenistic sources. Further, some of the terms commonly held to be Greek ( like hora) are debated by scholars as to actual origins.
You have a point here. I've gone through the arguments that tropicalists make for e.g, that the Tropical sign get their characteristics from Cardinal directions, varying mean speed of the Sun etc. However, this is not something unique to the tropical zodiac. One could make the same case for any Zodiac. Bottomline, the USP of Sidereal Zodiac are Nakshatras and tropical Zodiac Seasons(specifically North of the Equator). There is no way around this in my limited study of history of Zodiacs. The BIG glitch with sidereal is Ayanamsa : 27 stars equals atleast 27 Ayanamsas. How do you decide which one to implement?
@@dariusmcewen8509 i just wanted to add that aztec astrology according to my tribe also believs in the cardinal directions giving traits to zodiacs and then the spanish came and changed it to sidereal because sephardics didnt want the public accessing ometeotl and that tamoanchan was taken from us as well and supposedly aztec calendar was very accurate like the indians. Many indian statues of hanuman have been found in mexico and south america so maybe at one point indians did practice tropical and aztecs could be thr lost tribe of the asuras that hinduism talks about...
@@roflswamp6 cardinal directions giving rise to zodiac is a Ptolemaic version of Zodiac which evolved or was thrusted upon the public to coincide with the 5th Ecumenical council meeting requirement...resurrection and all that jazz. I have been studying the History of Astronomy and the first Zodiac as we know was tied to the CONSTELLATIONS. There is NO debate on this.The evidence collected so far from Assyrian scripts and tablets is as water tight as the law of gravity. The sentimental bunk floating around the Zodiac is just plain ridiculousness. Just go and search in the journals of Archeoastronomy etc. About the Indian part, it is clear as day that not just the Hindus , even the pre-Hindu civilization based virtually everything on Moon transiting the nakshatras. Even the Indian seasons are tied to Nakstras. There shouldn't be any debate on who used what when and where. Just simply stupidity to even debate these facts!
@ The Darshan Project : Had I begun my Astrology curiosity picking up a basic Astronomical text, then it would be clear as day that sidereal reckoning was the norm even into the Hellenic Greek period. Plus I was rude to you because I had only studied Ernst's and Vic's #versions# of history of zodiacs. The technique they have used to muddle the stuff up here is create a dialectic between Easr vs. West, Vedic vs. Western, Heliocentric vs. Geocentric. The moment one creates a false dichotomy, then the timelines can be thrown in the garbage. Even folks with hard science background like me take it on trust and only realize the hollowness of the arguments after verifyng them from multiple sources and perspectives. I did pose the timeline issue in one of the live sessions of Vic last year that he did before a conference, and he could not reply pertinently and took off the video from his playlist. You remember this was sometime last year when we had a heated argument even over my own horoscope?
It's all good, at least you looked at the arguments and took up some study of the subject which is what I hope of anyone stumbling across this stuff. I have to say I am personally interested in the process by which tropical became normed in the west and any cross influences it may have had, but in terms of the origin of astrology - I think the record is pretty clear.
I vaguely remember some of what you bring up in terms of history, but I interact a lot on these topics. One of the commentators below sent me a somewhat recent e-mail exchange he had with both Vic and Ernst, and their reply's say it all. Doesn't seem Ernst has even bothered to crack open a history book or accepted anything people ask around his theories since he wrote that paper and still spouts unsubstantiated facts while denying to provide proof of either his theories or efficacy of his methods. Nothing more to say over there really.
The record becomes pretty clear ONLY after one stumbles upon the proper sources in the literature and is bothered to review them. Unfortunately most of the Astrology scene either is filled with new age snowflakes or those looking to apply the techniques to predict some future event. Scholarly rigor and more importantly just being honest is lacking.
Mere “Scholars” are not going to be able to understand these esoteric topics to their fullest because they require purity to properly grasp the translations. Furthermore, intimate familiarity with the topic is required.
Perhaps if we are talking about estoteric rules and the actual application of knowledge. In the case of mathematical calculations and their development - it's pretty cut and dry and is what this video is mainly about. People keep getting confused - not even sure if they are watching anything here.
Darshan, Vic just made a topical vs sidereal comparison of Donald Trump's chart. It would be very helpful if you could critique his methods for analyzing a chart and perhaps show why trump's sidereal chart is more accurate.
He didn't even mention his arudha lagna. You want to keep wasting your time over there and ignoring everything here, feel free.
@@TheDarshanProject So you watched his video?
@@jesseh.saunders2112 Sure did. Best of luck with your life Jesse. Hope you find the answers you seek.
@@TheDarshanProject Working on it...
Vic ignores a lot of things like directional str, timing, (and arudha lagna as Darshan mentions) in his comparison. Search Fred Abong's tropical or sidereal discussion video if you want another perspective on how each methodology can have its role and see another example of a comparison focusing on timing
Also, we know how the knowledge of astrology is attained by Indian texts! When a Moon king, with Raja Yoga does Kundalini yoga and opens his all chakras and the 1000 petaled lotus blooms!! Yoga is the way to attain that divination! That King is none another that Krishna the Yogeshwar himself!
There is an aphorism that says knowledge cannot buy you education. According to a forum, Ernst Wilhelm's birth details are March 29, 1970; 15:24; Boulder, CO. A quick Sidereal analysis on JHora software proved my hunch that he has a debilitated Mercury! That's a classic case of why such people are so cocksure about their logical rationale, which totally misses the wisdom of the Guru (Mercury debilitation happens in Pisces, ruled by Guru/Jupiter). And this happens in the 8th house, which only proves why he is so much into the research related to astrology (Ketu is in Leo in the Ascendant, in a beautiful parivartan with Surya in the 8th, also pointing to astrological studies) -- but all pointed in the wrong direction due to the debilitation of Mercury. Ignore him like the plague! Knowledge does not equal wisdom.
Mercury debilitated can actually make quite humble students, and there are other factors to consider before one should chalk it it up to that alone. Even Einstein had this. If that is his birth time , I would be considering his 9th/badhaka for some of your concerns there. All sorts of things going on that axis.
Does Wilhelm concede defeat? Astrolada says he's her guru; her friend Nikola claims good results with Tropical. I believe Wilhelm's wife is the programmer, he is translator.
A) It is hard to concede defeat when there was never even a legitimate argument to begin with.
B) Why should I care about Astrolada or her friends? Who even is that? Are they scholars?
C) Plenty of people claim all sorts of things and none of this is about getting results or what system is right or wrong. It's about basic historical facts.
Be happy with your sideral zodiac men! Ernst is simply a genius of astrologer, Vargas "get alive" when you follow his teachings
This has nothing to do with astrological techniques and there are no comments related to that here since that is not the topic of discussion. To each their own in that realm, no end of opinions on how to interpret charts.
And Ernst still continues to be widely popular and is often interviewed by sidereal astrologers for his insight. Many of these sidereal guys have many more subscribers than Ernst, still they listen to the man with patient hearing like a disciple . That's cuz both of these people know that astrology is an ocean and they are just students. They re humble, have mutual respect for each other..
In India, it's said- vidya dadati vinayam.. real knowledge makes u humble.
Though some sidereal guys act as if Ernst has personally harmed them and is vengeful like a bad loser. They act threatened. Talking with smirks on face and snorting while talking about Ernst🤣. Really childish behaviour by some including you.
Seems there is only one 'truth' seeker out there, you...eh?
Follow what you think is correct.. Let people choose what they want. Why become so hateful. The whole video,it's subtitle, the way you talk, is condescending Ernst or anyone who folows him. Btw many sidereal guys follow him🤔Ofcourse Ernst should not waste his time trying to prove his theories to everyone or anyone.
Thank you for your own personal moral judgement on my activities of sharing actual knowledge of facts - sorry if this offends you but I am not hateful. You have no idea about my engagement with humility or what I know versus what I share here in public. You are a hypocrite coming on here like this.
I personally find Ernest himself and how he speaks about other astrologers offensive - he is often looking down on other astrologers in his videos and being critical of their methods as if he has figured it all out - and all without a guru mind you - and you want to talk about my humility? Trust me I've actually tried to listen and learn from him and other people from their cult. I've seen many of his courses. I've read Ryan and Vic's books and tried to wrap my head around Corey's logic. I've had conversations with all of them and been on their chat boards and I am not even bringing in all that I might have to say about all of that - but I have done my due diligence there - now you come on here and pretend like you know everything about me and what I've been through with these people. Who is childish?
HOWEVER, when I ask people in their cult hard questions, particularly around the FACTS I have shown here, they either ignore me or gaslight me. This is NOT what you do to students if you are valid teacher. What I share here versus what Ernst claims and is so blatantly against historical record should be made clear since people new to this area get terribly confused quickly and many have already benefited from the knowledge I share here or agree of their own ignorance and need to look further. However it is Ernst himself who has ignored actual questions on these very topics when brought the facts - this is not humility or teaching but blatant ignorance and denial on his part. I have no problem if he wants to use the tropical zodiac and there is nothing wrong with what I am doing here - this is what scholarly discourse looks like and any real teacher should be interested in. Ernst does have a burden of proof if he is going to challenge the historical record - that's how these things work. If you want to bring in attacks on my character for engaging in it you are the one who is hateful and needs a head check.
Further, this is not a popularity contest and TH-cam views or subscribers mean absolutely nothing in terms of anything. As noted above, I too have taken the time to take what they do seriously, they have not taken the time to take actual scholarly work in this field seriously nor my questions and sources. If TH-cam subscribers and popularity is your litmus test for who should be taken seriously in these domains, it speaks volumes about where you are coming from.
I never saw such hateful speech from Ernst. Why to use such offensive language? If Ernst is offensive off screen, what are you trying to prove onscreen?
One should be a contributor, not a debater on such devine subjects!
@@TheDarshanProject Your message is not offensive. It's hateful, simple. Your tone and tenor of writing about Ernst and while you speak in the video has only one agenda- demean Ernst. Ernst never demeans in any of his video..and hey, look at the replies u got from him. It's written with respect. And look at the way you write..' I won't let u slip so easily and what not'.. are u a mafia or what..it's funny and childish.
And yes, sidereal guys call him for interviews, even now. And share knowledge.
Again, Ernst has no moral obligation to keep bring out evidence. He says he tested it. And made his software. That's it.
And yes, even I tested it. And it works super good. And I am not morally obliged to explain anyone.
But I don't go making videos saying how krs,joni or anyone out there is not doing a good job. They are all honest people, doing what they believe in..like Ernst does what he believes in..
There is no controversy. Unfortunately your tolerance level is low. It's quite clear.🙄
@@SatyanandaRowlo actually every astrologer has contributed something to this science. I find uniqueness in all of them and learn from both groups of astrologers..they are all amazing people. No one should become so offended actually
@@drsuyashtalks My sole object is to show how he completely ignores basic facts. It's mind boggling what he says in his paper and refuses to look at the fact. If you call that hateful I don't know what planet your coming from. If you accept it you too are not interested in facts and have no place in this conversation, though I could understand you being upset that a nobody like me can so clearly see how off the mark he is - cognitive dissonance is tough sometimes. Further, Ernst does talk down about people's approaches, all the time - but if you can ignore the facts I present you'll probably also ignore that. As far as writing " I won't u slip so easily" you are referencing someone elses writing - not mine. I don't write like that. That was from an actual research scientist I believe, but you obviously don't care for proper citation or sources. If you do REAL research you should be able to present it to people. I too have tested the theories in my own way. I don't see them working, time and time again. I have presented the information in public. It is not that hard, but real research is which Ernst probably know nothing about since he is not a trained data scientist...And yes, when you challenge the commonly held historical record you have every moral and scholarly responsibility to properly defend your thesis. Otherwise any moron can go around claiming they have done this or that - and humanity being what it is - many may follow. It is dishonest and should be shown to be so. Unfortunately your tolerance for evidence is quite low. It's quite clear. Please feel free to not go on my channel anymore and take your moral high ground elsewhere. People like facts around here and logic around here, not popularity contests.
The Most boring Debunking I have ever heard of, your Mercury must be terribly poor if this is the video you have put together, atleast Vic does good videos.
This is one of the weakest rebuttals I've heard. Please stay over on Vic's channel if you like to be entertained - that was his first profession, and still is apparently.
Yes check out Vics channel, the stories of Vedic gods are definitely entertainment! Plus you get to learn so much while being entertained this way! Ernst is pretty entertaining too! Much respect to the teachers that provide valuable content in a way that engages you in that way! Much respect! Thanku Ernst! Thank you Vic Dicara!
I
Yea the way he explains tropical zodiac is really good & makes a lot sense. I completely stopped using sidereal & never looked back
A few notes on your video.
How do you reconcile the ideas he puts forth about Varhamirhia using a tropical zodiac and having knowledge of precession. His main point in the paper is the loss or ignorance of the knowledge of precession. You go through way too fast just dismissing his claims, CITE Vahamirhia to show why he is wrong! Honestly this is a shite video, I trust you are a scholarly man but only because you have so many sources in the link. I will be checking these out and am impressed to see it, however I was very disappointed by your presentation in this video.
Agree 👏
Please take the time to actually consider what is put forth in the video and perhaps I'd be willing to take the time to respond to your inquiry about Varahamihira further, otherwise please take your "shite" elsewhere. While your at it, please show me where Varahamihira references to split up the rashi and nakshatra into two different systems. Or perhaps just start by learning how to spell his name correctly. You've got two different incorrect spellings just in this one comment alone.
TheDarshanProject hey bro! I appreciate the comment, I’ll address your issues in reverse order.
Varahamihira is a foreign name, you understood who I was referencing, so the spelling is actually unimportant. Where does Varahamihira say that Rashis and nakshatras are to be taken as a unified system? In The Mystery of the Zodiac Wilhelm puts forth that Varahamihira notes the movement of nakshatras through the rashis. So it’s on you to discredit him, I’m saying you did a sub-par job, lacking scholarly rigor, no offense to you as a person. You blasted waaay too fast through most every point in this vid, my comment was supposed to be a helpful reminder that you can do better, youre obviously and intelligent guy, give this argument the scholarship that it deserves. Truly “Vedic” astrology is nakshatra astrology, show me where in the Rg or Yajur Veda that it mentions the signs of the zodiac. You can’t, because they don’t. All the evidence we have indicates that the Indians got their 12 fold zodiac from the Greeks. Some people will say otherwise, like I believe you mentioned in this vid, but they, like you, have no source for such a claim.
Also, I’d like to posit and issue to you, if you’re game.
We know the Greeks used a tropical zodiac, and we know that the Greeks were the first to understand precession. So, my question is, why would the Greeks adopt a tropical zodiac if the signs are supposed to move? The answer: they wouldn’t, the signs don’t move. So what happened was the Indians, with their sidereal nakshatra astrology, took the tropical Greeks zodiac and superimposed it onto their asterisms. This is the source of all this confusion.
I’d be happy to hear your response or see any other videos you have on the subject, but I expect it to be researched and Sourced in a way that is comprehensible and appropriate.
I apologize for calling your video “shite” but only for the vulgarity, not for the sentiment.
I look forward to your reply.
@@eitenapples1879 You Idiot! Are you Ernst using different Username? For fuck's sake, how can Nakshatras move around the Rashis or the Zodiac? That statement of yours is even more fucking dense than the turd that a demented person sometimes forgets to flush. Show me where Varahamihira or any Scholar has this claim? Varahamihira in Surya Siddhantha NEVER discusses Astrology. Surya Siddhantha is purely Mathematical!
@@tvasthinag3701 That is completely incorrect. The Surya Siddhanta and Srimad Bhagvatam both mention that Rashis are integrally tied to the solstices and Equinoxes, and indicate techniques for rectifying charts Tropically. You know Lord Ram has a birth chart that would be impossible sidereally right? The nakshatra padas do not align with his Dasa's at all, it could only be possible in a Tropical model. Meaning that the earliest Rashi based astrology of India was Tropical.
As for Varahamihiras claim, I would recommend looking it up, he clearly states that Aslesa used to the Nakshatra of the summer solstice, and that in his time it had moved to Pushya (its now Punarvasu), and that point was and is 0 degrees Karkata,
The reason you are so volatile is that you know my points are irrefutable, and you cant handle the fact that your entire worldview is incorrect. I would recommend you do some research rather than wasting everyone's time with your immaturity
you dont seem to have a good reason to use one way or the other. not debunked
With a comment like that, you don't seem to understand what this video was even about.