As a Pro-Choice Atheist, I really appreciated this video. Though I obviously disagree with the Pro-Life position, I agree with what Dr. Knobel stressed about the need to think through these complex issues in a philosophical and reflective manner. I hope many of the comments here (which seem to take the exact approach that Dr. Knobel was counseling us *not* to take) can take heed of her wisdom here.
I honestly thought I was alone in my thinking. The key point is counter-culture. We all have to bear the blame for allowing it to be such a partisan issue (and for all other issues for that matter).
Agreed. Besides being out-of-context , TH-cam’s “context” is a form of editorializing that is designed to intentionally undermine any pro-life content. Describing an abortion as “ending a pregnancy” is like saying an execution is nothing more than ending a prison sentence. It may be accurate, but it’s hardly the truth.
21:50 it is just about discourse.. Including the cost, as in universal healthcare??? dollars, can cause the conversation to become close-up and not a whisper. It seems that no discourse highlights the disservice, worsen, inattentiveness.... action of abortion.
A principal component in abortion, at least in the 60s and 70s, is abortion. Thankfully a few medical groups formed specific to convert and heal MDs. Rarely though is there little discussion for medical staff. This is much needed and I hope students pursuing a career in health have professors and classes like this to divert from providing abortions to cover costs of med school. First do no harm.
@@PsychologyAttack if you're against abortion then you're certainly on the right path. That being said, everyone deserves hell, me included, If not for the grace of Jesus Christ.
You should study the history of the Church, it is exactly by working things out that we seek to bring back those in darkness. We must venture out in humility to proclaim the Truth in love for the other. We can not sit by and declare from on high and expect to get anywhere. We must follow Christ and do as He did. He ate with sinners and tax collectors, and scribes and Pharisees alike and discoursed with both. He died emptied of all honor and pleasure from others and suffered even being Goodness, Truth, and Beauty Himself and did not open His mouth against those who put Him unjustly to death. We must do the same, and staying true to mercy and justice both, truth and charity both, go out and meet those most spiritually deprived and bring them forth from their agony and desolation towards the way home. As other did for us, as God Himself came down from Heaven and did for us. We must deny ourselves, pick up our crosses, and follow after Him. If we seek to preserve our lives and withhold the bounty we have been given, we will lose everything. But if we pour ourselves out as a libation, innocent as doves and wise as serpents, we will live forever. `Trust the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean upon your own understanding.` Book of Proverbs 3:5 Really just read the entire chapter.
@@LostArchivist argue with abortion is to argue with people who have lost their common sense. There is no common ground of which to have a fruitful conversation. They need to first find common sense and Logos.
@@abelovedchildofgod7383 It is easy to make excuses to not rush into hardship when someone else is the one facing death for it. But uttering a battle cry and then standing by and watching, is not fighting the good fight of faith. It is vanity and pride pretending to be holiness but melting into sloth and acedia when the call to get down into the field comes. The blood of the innocent is also upon our hands if we do not even try to bear the cross of getting to the root of the issues with their parents or the ones slaying them. Every life taken on our watch cries to Heaven for vengence and if we fail to seek every righteous means at our disposal and try every way, both the souls of the abortionists and parents in Hell and the infants who were slain, have justification to say, we failed to act when we were obligated by justice and mercy both to. No excuses will exist for us then, and the Just Judge shall show us Divine Justice, for we sought it and shall recieve what we reach for. I am speaking against myself as much as you. Woe be to me if I do not heed my own words, for I will be in a much worse place if I do not repent or else come to a fuller knowledge of the truth. The one thing we can not do is stand by and watch, we must go deeper and try all means as the Lord grants us the grace to do so. He does not ask us anything He does not equip us to do. The evil before us grows fat on our cowardice and inaction, as it has for a century since the poison of atheism and scientism crept into the wider culture.
@@LostArchivist what is the cause for 80% of abortion today? The cause is that they view it as health care and that is the problem we have with feminist. That's what Plan Parenthood is about. Why on earth do parents want to exterminate their child that is within their capacity to rise? Because they don't want it and don't view it as a child. Do you get the problem now?
Before we analyze the fruitfulness of such a discussion (Abortion), I want to pose a question to both Prof. Angela Knobel and fellow Thomistic Institute followers: Is it conceivable that in the 19th century in the west the topic of Abortion was as controversial, complicated and difficult to have as it is today? Or let's fast forward a bit, is it conceivable that this topic was as controversial, heated and difficult for Catholics to engage-in in let's say the 1920's? I think most of us understand that there has been a significant tidal shift in the culture over the last century which has, as Prof. Knobel says, caused defensive reactionaries in abortion discussions. If we take the time to examine the historical sequence of events which eventually lead to widespread acceptance of abortion we will see that it first began with subverting traditional sexual ethics. I posit that there is 0% chance abortion would be the issue that it has become if not for the sexual revolution. Let us consult the wisdom of our common doctor, St Thomas Aquinas: St.Thomas teaches us that sin in general but particularly sins of the flesh (masturbation, fornication, sodomy, pornography, contraception) darken the intellect and inhibit RIGHT REASON from operating correctly. The dark cloud of impurity confuses the mind and effectively makes man dumber. With this in mind, is there anything surprising when we realize the sequence of events are as follows: -1965: Contraception becomes legal -1968 the Production Code established to keep modesty in films is abolished -1969-1984 known as the golden age of Porn -1973 Roe V Wade makes Abortion a right If Catholics want to get the culture's head straight on abortion, we have to first remove the thick cloud of impurity hovering over it. The topic is being discussed as though the issue is fundamentally about the 5th commandment when in reality it's actually about the 6th and 9th. If people start living chaste lives, Right Reason can start to work again and Virgil can do his work to lead Dante out of the Inferno.
@@SovietSlayer that's not the pro-choice position. The reason for the abortion doesn't matter because it should be a 'fundamental right'. Also, the conversation is much more within the realm of right reason if the woman is concerned her baby only has a 2% chance of surviving.
I must admit, I was very disappointed in this video. I usually am a big fan of this series. The problem was not so much Fr. Gregory but his guest. She says over and over again that the issue is very complicated. But it is not complicated. It may be hard, but it is not complicated, unless you have bought into some fundamental modern American assumptions about autonomy and life as self-fulfillment. I get the feeling that Professor Knobel is more influenced by these assumptions than she thinks. Yes, it can be difficult when one’s plans are interrupted, but since when are we entitled to a life free from pain, difficulty, or responsibility? She mentions women who talk about not having signed on to having a baby at that time. But isn’t it irrational to engage in the act that might possibly bring about a baby and then talk about not having signed on for it? She talks about how the violin argument is very compelling in a visceral way. Perhaps it is, but analogy to pregnancy is faulty. In the case of pregnancy, it is you yourself who have brought another human life into existence, and which is now dependent on you and for that you have a responsibility. It is not some random person you are being asked to carry in your body, but your own offspring, brought about by a sexual act. Someone who is raped, might have a case here, but not someone who willingly engages in sexual activity. She also brings up the argument about undue burden. It is true that women have more of a burden of carrying a baby to term, but historically men have had a greater burden of protection and provision. Think about the many millions of men who died in World War I, and then tell me that women carry a greater burden. I am also not convinced that philosophical arguments are relevant. In the push for abortion, the philosophical arguments were secondary, made up to justify a previously unacceptable act.
You miss the point. The fact that men are equated to sacrifice betrays your bias. You can't shout your way to change people's minds, this is a democracy. It's one thing to state your opinion, but it doesn't change anything. She's right, like being a Christian means being a witness.
We all have an opinion. Trying to analyse human beings using philosophy doesn't work. What do most women want in a democratic America, when it comes to abortion? This question has an answer.
Opinion and fact are at wide rift, between them lies the field of prudence, here is the field philosophy and all manners of inquiry till, sometimes we find nuggets of truth, but most of what is harvested is the product of the patient, humble, sustained work of discerning out and investigating, contending with each other and the differing perspectived, and following the field onward harvesting season by season.
This is a woman's issue so that priest shouldn't even be involved in this conversation. We men have no say on the matter. What people do with their bodies and how they live their lives is none of my business. We all have to answer for our own sins and not somebody else's. If all are guilty of sin, who is left to judge? NO ONE!!! Or Hypocrites!! Romans chapter 13 Verse 1 and Malachi 3:5, christian nationalism is destroyed by these Verses.
It's not about juding or sin but human's rights. Imagine if someone said: "it's slave owners business what they do with their slaves, you shouldn't judge them". Now you can disagree with me on whether you can call unborn a person and thus grant them right to life but please don't act like anyone on the right is making this about matter of judgment
@@KamilR7 I'm not a follower so I cannot choose side's. However if one claims to be a Christian or follow of Christ, they need to follow what Christ said and not their political ideology. Christ commanded them to Live their neighbor and Love their enemy. Christ commanded them to pay their taxes and give to Caesar what is Caesar's!! Christ said we would know who His True Followers are only by their Love. When people see christians who claim they know God but are acting the hypocrite, people are going to call them out!! MAGA christianity is totally totally totally totally unscriptual and it gives me great pleasure in dismantling these false christians and their beliefs with their own Bible.
@@andrewortiz5797 Bible is to be interpreted as whole not just what suits your argument. Jesus cleary said that we are to speak out against sin (Matthew 18:15, also see 2 Timothy 4:2-4, Ephesians 5:11). As to taxes yes we are to pay taxes but no where does Jesus say we can't protest against too high taxes. And as to Love, well telling your neighbor that what they're doing is sin is actually love because you want to save them from hell. If you stay silent and affirm them in their sin, you're committing a sin yourself (Ezekiel 3:18). Since you do not consider yourself a follower then perhaps maybe you shouldn't be making judgements about Christians if you don't know what it really is about. However, I do encourage you to start reading Bible, hopefully you'll understand better then arguments that Christians make
@@KamilR7Slavery violates the bodily autonomy of sentient people, as do abortion bans. Humans rights groups across the world who fight modern-day slavery (human trafficking) have condemned the abortion bans in the US. There’s a reason for that.
@@JaneFleesTexas abortion violates bodily autonomy of the unborn. Sentience doesn’t determine humanity, if someone is in coma we still treat him as human. Even corpse even though is dead is treated with respect because it’s still regarded as a human body. Animals are sentient yet we do not regard them as human beings. At the conception sperm and ova form a new organism that has it’s own human DNA. Moreover, it’s obvious fact that it’s parents are of human species and if there is no any disruption to it’s growth it will always go through these stages: zygote, embryo, fetus and finally newborn. There is no magical moment at which unborn becomes human. It is human from beginning it just needs development. It’s scary that today we advocate for taking away right to live. We all were zygote, embryo and fetus at one point but not sperm or ova, it’s important to make this distinction. Conception is the moment when parent’s reproductive cells form a new human being.
The professor has a rare gift of being able to clearly explain an emotive subject. Many thanks for this and her other helpful talks. 🙂
Absolutely agree
As a Pro-Choice Atheist, I really appreciated this video. Though I obviously disagree with the Pro-Life position, I agree with what Dr. Knobel stressed about the need to think through these complex issues in a philosophical and reflective manner. I hope many of the comments here (which seem to take the exact approach that Dr. Knobel was counseling us *not* to take) can take heed of her wisdom here.
I honestly thought I was alone in my thinking. The key point is counter-culture. We all have to bear the blame for allowing it to be such a partisan issue (and for all other issues for that matter).
TH-cam has added an unhelpful “context”: as if the viewer has no context for this discussion!
This 'context' comment is a sad symptom of our culture.
Agreed. Besides being out-of-context , TH-cam’s “context” is a form of editorializing that is designed to intentionally undermine any pro-life content. Describing an abortion as “ending a pregnancy” is like saying an execution is nothing more than ending a prison sentence. It may be accurate, but it’s hardly the truth.
First 😊
This is a good video.
Correction in first line should be medical doctors.
21:50 it is just about discourse..
Including the cost, as in universal healthcare??? dollars, can cause the conversation to become close-up and not a whisper.
It seems that no discourse highlights the disservice, worsen, inattentiveness.... action of abortion.
Here lies the problem, the non-existence of discourse
A principal component in abortion, at least in the 60s and 70s, is abortion. Thankfully a few medical groups formed specific to convert and heal MDs. Rarely though is there little discussion for medical staff. This is much needed and I hope students pursuing a career in health have professors and classes like this to divert from providing abortions to cover costs of med school. First do no harm.
You don't discuss/negotiate with evil, you fight it.
First you prove that you fight evil. It might as well be that you are the evil guy who belives that he is good.
@@PsychologyAttack if you're against abortion then you're certainly on the right path. That being said, everyone deserves hell, me included, If not for the grace of Jesus Christ.
Thank you for watching and commenting,
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What the point of thing like heresy then?
We're not interested to find some good in heresy. We anathema them.
You should study the history of the Church, it is exactly by working things out that we seek to bring back those in darkness. We must venture out in humility to proclaim the Truth in love for the other. We can not sit by and declare from on high and expect to get anywhere. We must follow Christ and do as He did. He ate with sinners and tax collectors, and scribes and Pharisees alike and discoursed with both. He died emptied of all honor and pleasure from others and suffered even being Goodness, Truth, and Beauty Himself and did not open His mouth against those who put Him unjustly to death. We must do the same, and staying true to mercy and justice both, truth and charity both, go out and meet those most spiritually deprived and bring them forth from their agony and desolation towards the way home. As other did for us, as God Himself came down from Heaven and did for us. We must deny ourselves, pick up our crosses, and follow after Him. If we seek to preserve our lives and withhold the bounty we have been given, we will lose everything. But if we pour ourselves out as a libation, innocent as doves and wise as serpents, we will live forever.
`Trust the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean upon your own understanding.` Book of Proverbs 3:5
Really just read the entire chapter.
@@LostArchivist argue with abortion is to argue with people who have lost their common sense. There is no common ground of which to have a fruitful conversation. They need to first find common sense and Logos.
@@LostArchivist Supposed you are argue with Satan which is what you did when you argue with abortion.
@@abelovedchildofgod7383 It is easy to make excuses to not rush into hardship when someone else is the one facing death for it. But uttering a battle cry and then standing by and watching, is not fighting the good fight of faith. It is vanity and pride pretending to be holiness but melting into sloth and acedia when the call to get down into the field comes.
The blood of the innocent is also upon our hands if we do not even try to bear the cross of getting to the root of the issues with their parents or the ones slaying them. Every life taken on our watch cries to Heaven for vengence and if we fail to seek every righteous means at our disposal and try every way, both the souls of the abortionists and parents in Hell and the infants who were slain, have justification to say, we failed to act when we were obligated by justice and mercy both to. No excuses will exist for us then, and the Just Judge shall show us Divine Justice, for we sought it and shall recieve what we reach for.
I am speaking against myself as much as you. Woe be to me if I do not heed my own words, for I will be in a much worse place if I do not repent or else come to a fuller knowledge of the truth.
The one thing we can not do is stand by and watch, we must go deeper and try all means as the Lord grants us the grace to do so. He does not ask us anything He does not equip us to do. The evil before us grows fat on our cowardice and inaction, as it has for a century since the poison of atheism and scientism crept into the wider culture.
@@LostArchivist what is the cause for 80% of abortion today?
The cause is that they view it as health care and that is the problem we have with feminist.
That's what Plan Parenthood is about.
Why on earth do parents want to exterminate their child that is within their capacity to rise?
Because they don't want it and don't view it as a child.
Do you get the problem now?
Before we analyze the fruitfulness of such a discussion (Abortion), I want to pose a question to both Prof. Angela Knobel and fellow Thomistic Institute followers:
Is it conceivable that in the 19th century in the west the topic of Abortion was as controversial, complicated and difficult to have as it is today?
Or let's fast forward a bit, is it conceivable that this topic was as controversial, heated and difficult for Catholics to engage-in in let's say the 1920's?
I think most of us understand that there has been a significant tidal shift in the culture over the last century which has, as Prof. Knobel says, caused defensive reactionaries in abortion discussions.
If we take the time to examine the historical sequence of events which eventually lead to widespread acceptance of abortion we will see that it first began with subverting traditional sexual ethics. I posit that there is 0% chance abortion would be the issue that it has become if not for the sexual revolution. Let us consult the wisdom of our common doctor, St Thomas Aquinas:
St.Thomas teaches us that sin in general but particularly sins of the flesh (masturbation, fornication, sodomy, pornography, contraception) darken the intellect and inhibit RIGHT REASON from operating correctly. The dark cloud of impurity confuses the mind and effectively makes man dumber.
With this in mind, is there anything surprising when we realize the sequence of events are as follows:
-1965: Contraception becomes legal
-1968 the Production Code established to keep modesty in films is abolished
-1969-1984 known as the golden age of Porn
-1973 Roe V Wade makes Abortion a right
If Catholics want to get the culture's head straight on abortion, we have to first remove the thick cloud of impurity hovering over it. The topic is being discussed as though the issue is fundamentally about the 5th commandment when in reality it's actually about the 6th and 9th. If people start living chaste lives, Right Reason can start to work again and Virgil can do his work to lead Dante out of the Inferno.
@@SovietSlayer that's not the pro-choice position. The reason for the abortion doesn't matter because it should be a 'fundamental right'. Also, the conversation is much more within the realm of right reason if the woman is concerned her baby only has a 2% chance of surviving.
Thank you for watching and commenting,
You won 🛍🛍
Inbox the above number on WhatsApp to redeem your Prize.🎁
It is not either or, it is both and, such an evil parasite draws upon many roots.
Sorry but I find the number of time she says write very distracting
I must admit, I was very disappointed in this video. I usually am a big fan of this series. The problem was not so much Fr. Gregory but his guest. She says over and over again that the issue is very complicated. But it is not complicated. It may be hard, but it is not complicated, unless you have bought into some fundamental modern American assumptions about autonomy and life as self-fulfillment. I get the feeling that Professor Knobel is more influenced by these assumptions than she thinks. Yes, it can be difficult when one’s plans are interrupted, but since when are we entitled to a life free from pain, difficulty, or responsibility? She mentions women who talk about not having signed on to having a baby at that time. But isn’t it irrational to engage in the act that might possibly bring about a baby and then talk about not having signed on for it? She talks about how the violin argument is very compelling in a visceral way. Perhaps it is, but analogy to pregnancy is faulty. In the case of pregnancy, it is you yourself who have brought another human life into existence, and which is now dependent on you and for that you have a responsibility. It is not some random person you are being asked to carry in your body, but your own offspring, brought about by a sexual act. Someone who is raped, might have a case here, but not someone who willingly engages in sexual activity. She also brings up the argument about undue burden. It is true that women have more of a burden of carrying a baby to term, but historically men have had a greater burden of protection and provision. Think about the many millions of men who died in World War I, and then tell me that women carry a greater burden. I am also not convinced that philosophical arguments are relevant. In the push for abortion, the philosophical arguments were secondary, made up to justify a previously unacceptable act.
You miss the point. The fact that men are equated to sacrifice betrays your bias. You can't shout your way to change people's minds, this is a democracy. It's one thing to state your opinion, but it doesn't change anything. She's right, like being a Christian means being a witness.
@@anthonyw2931 I'm afraid you are the one who misses the point. You don't engage in a dialogue with evil. You are to fight it.
@@Aengrod rely on Christ. God bless you
We all have an opinion. Trying to analyse human beings using philosophy doesn't work. What do most women want in a democratic America, when it comes to abortion? This question has an answer.
Thank you for watching and commenting,
You won 🛍🛍
Inbox the above number on WhatsApp to redeem your Prize..🎁
Opinion and fact are at wide rift, between them lies the field of prudence, here is the field philosophy and all manners of inquiry till, sometimes we find nuggets of truth, but most of what is harvested is the product of the patient, humble, sustained work of discerning out and investigating, contending with each other and the differing perspectived, and following the field onward harvesting season by season.
Care to substantiate the claim that philosophy doesn't work? Also, most women in the US vote pro-life.
This is a woman's issue so that priest shouldn't even be involved in this conversation. We men have no say on the matter. What people do with their bodies and how they live their lives is none of my business. We all have to answer for our own sins and not somebody else's. If all are guilty of sin, who is left to judge? NO ONE!!! Or Hypocrites!! Romans chapter 13 Verse 1 and Malachi 3:5, christian nationalism is destroyed by these Verses.
It's not about juding or sin but human's rights. Imagine if someone said: "it's slave owners business what they do with their slaves, you shouldn't judge them". Now you can disagree with me on whether you can call unborn a person and thus grant them right to life but please don't act like anyone on the right is making this about matter of judgment
@@KamilR7 I'm not a follower so I cannot choose side's. However if one claims to be a Christian or follow of Christ, they need to follow what Christ said and not their political ideology. Christ commanded them to Live their neighbor and Love their enemy. Christ commanded them to pay their taxes and give to Caesar what is Caesar's!! Christ said we would know who His True Followers are only by their Love. When people see christians who claim they know God but are acting the hypocrite, people are going to call them out!! MAGA christianity is totally totally totally totally unscriptual and it gives me great pleasure in dismantling these false christians and their beliefs with their own Bible.
@@andrewortiz5797 Bible is to be interpreted as whole not just what suits your argument. Jesus cleary said that we are to speak out against sin (Matthew 18:15, also see 2 Timothy 4:2-4, Ephesians 5:11). As to taxes yes we are to pay taxes but no where does Jesus say we can't protest against too high taxes. And as to Love, well telling your neighbor that what they're doing is sin is actually love because you want to save them from hell. If you stay silent and affirm them in their sin, you're committing a sin yourself (Ezekiel 3:18). Since you do not consider yourself a follower then perhaps maybe you shouldn't be making judgements about Christians if you don't know what it really is about. However, I do encourage you to start reading Bible, hopefully you'll understand better then arguments that Christians make
@@KamilR7Slavery violates the bodily autonomy of sentient people, as do abortion bans. Humans rights groups across the world who fight modern-day slavery (human trafficking) have condemned the abortion bans in the US. There’s a reason for that.
@@JaneFleesTexas abortion violates bodily autonomy of the unborn. Sentience doesn’t determine humanity, if someone is in coma we still treat him as human. Even corpse even though is dead is treated with respect because it’s still regarded as a human body. Animals are sentient yet we do not regard them as human beings. At the conception sperm and ova form a new organism that has it’s own human DNA. Moreover, it’s obvious fact that it’s parents are of human species and if there is no any disruption to it’s growth it will always go through these stages: zygote, embryo, fetus and finally newborn. There is no magical moment at which unborn becomes human. It is human from beginning it just needs development. It’s scary that today we advocate for taking away right to live. We all were zygote, embryo and fetus at one point but not sperm or ova, it’s important to make this distinction. Conception is the moment when parent’s reproductive cells form a new human being.