WWSD2020: Barrel Selection & Heat Zero Testing
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- There is an editing error in this video during the Faxon group testing, there is a second video that corrects this here:
• WWSD2020: Faxon Heat S...
In this first R&D update of the WWSD2020 project, we revisit barrel selection and test new offerings from Ballistic Advantage as well as Faxon in an attempt to validate our conclusions about pencil barrels and modern heat stress relieving as well as choose the official barrel for WWSD2020.
InRange is entirely viewer supported:
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Due to an audio issue we had to re-test and re-film the 30 round dump and subsequent lack of group shift, but the edit in the official video accidentally included the first group fired which didn't match up with the final result: th-cam.com/video/nk8zHjIhPMw/w-d-xo.html
You guy's probably don't remember me but at the end of day one, hard as hell 2017, I was on the safety range trying to fix my self regulating Seekins gas block that really ruined my day along with my Glock 34 that had a broken trigger return spring. You were walking past and I asked how your day went. You could have just said great and kept on walking but you stopped and had a conversation, gave me some advice and let me play with your wwsd rifles. Just want to say thanks for ending my shitty day on a good note. Hope to compete with you again in the future.
Is this the soggy cheeseburger incident?
@@jshaw1503 please elaborate
jcodym13 I’m wondering if his comment is a description of the soggy cheeseburger incident
@@jcodym13 Probably recognizing his name is a reference to the string cheese incident band.
lol my brother followed that band around for a few years. My channel name was derived from a window contractor that did me wrong, he showed up with an apology and a bag of soggy cheeseburgers for my crew. It didn't go well for him.
"You can have a rifle, or a rifle AND a burger"
American gun owners: *heavy labored breathing*
You got us Ian
"You could have a rifle...or a rifle, AND a burger!"
Sold.
Love this country. 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
I absolutely LOVE my Faxon pencil barrel and carbon fiber free float tube. Everybody that handles it flips out and I send them to your channel.
Let the “why didn’t you try this part” people start flooding in. Soooo many good manufactures these days! I don’t envy your task.
two great choices for barrels!!!
Just a question. You had to reshoot the targets? That's clearly different targets for Faxon result. I guess heat mirage really gets in the way?
7:44 to 8:55 different pattern of initial 5 shot group.
I noticed the the same thing. I hope they give some sort of explanation on why the targets are different. I have both Faxon and Ballistic Advantage pencil barrels and they shoot great.
I was wondering the same thing. Def different targets for the cold bore faxon 5rd group
@@GunFunZS I have noticed that my Faxon pencil barrels shoot a tighter group on average compared compared to my BA pencil barrel. Now that being said it's not that big of a difference.
Here are my barrel's spec, Faxon 14.5 5.56 Gunner profile w/flashider (free floated) 1/8 twist, avg group at 100yd 1.25in to 1.50in. With my hand loads Hornady 75gr BTHP Match
BA 16in 5.56 pencil barrel with A2 FSB A2 flashider (not free floated) 1/7 twist, avg group at 100yd 1.5in to 1.75in with my hand loads 73gr Hornady ELD Match
Ammo is custom I reload too. Hornady 75gr BTHP & 73gr ELD Match, both with 23.8gn Hodgden H4895 powder. This recipe was made for my Faxon guns not the BA gun.
Now maybe the BA not being free floated is were the .25in difference is coming from or it's ammo. Idk. I have not tried to make a new recipe for the BA rifle yet. I'm sure I can get it tighter just haven't done it yet.
I have made my own version of the WWSD rifles both 18in, 14.5in and have TH-cam videos on them. The 18in is Faxon Gunner 5R rifled barrel which shoots 1in to 1.25in at 100yd, felt is wasn't fair to compare that gun, 5R is super sweet imo. Also Faxon should have taken care of you with your feed ramp problem.
Check my vids if want and if you have anymore questions just ask. I'm more than happy to help out.
Yup, the Faxon group is not the same. Does that mean they repeated the test many times and selected part of the footage (if so, why didn't they say so), or does that mean they're cherry picking?
Weird either way.
And in response: th-cam.com/video/nk8zHjIhPMw/w-d-xo.html
I'm not so sure that zero shift is the big concern these days, as almost all well made barrels eliminate that as you said, but rather I hear more complaints about just how much groups open up.
I'd like to see these compared to modern socom profiles under the same conditions, even if lighter is the end goal, it'd be nice to see exactly what a difference in weight is ACTUALLY getting you.
Edit:
To clarify some confusion, yes I know hbar and socom are for precision or full auto, yes I know there are better profiles (I own a bcm elw), but chrome lined socom and government are what I had in service, and what we are currently using.
If the goal here is to improve the ar15, I'd like to see it compared to a modern military m4a1, and no they did not test heavy barrels in the last rendition of WWSD, the tested an old school m16a1 with a pencil barrel.
I think a more apt comparison would be against Faxon's own "Gunner" profile barrel (with a consistent taper from the breach to the gas block, ending with a pencil profile at the end) or BCM's Enhanced Lightweight Profile barrels. The SOCOM is overkill, as it's literally a heavy barrel designed for fully automatic fire, so the thing weighs like 2 pounds! The results would probably be dramatically different, so I don't think they'd go for that.
Personal observation with an 18in barrel is that a suppressor makes the issue much worse. Heavy and short seems to work better when you have to hang a pound of weight off it.
Everyone already knows a heavier barrel is better for automatic fire. You dont need to test it.
@@0778drz110 yeah, but it would be cool to see a side by side to see SPECIFICALLY what happens differently.
wooohoooo! Here we go! Can't wait to see these.
The added benefit of a removable flash hider is worth the 4oz's to me
You do know Faxon designed them so the gas blocks fit over the integral muzzle devices?
WWSD might be WIGTD this year. Looking to build my first AR, and I can think of no better source of information than these two.
Be careful. I built the WWSD Mk.1 as my first build and it spoiled me on ARs forever. You'll never be able to touch another manufacturer again haha
@@nates9536 ; Isn't that the point? xD
I have been slowly buying the parts for a wwsd rifle. Looking forward to finishing it
I'm so glad I bought a few faxon barrels last month cause now they'll be unobtainium
"you could carry a rifle... or you could carry a rifle and a burger!" 😆👍
Fully understand the idea of using “representative” ammo for testing.
But
When you have a finished gun how about a test with Mach Ammo and a high end high magnification scope. I would be very interested in what the ultimate mechanical accuracy ends up as. My guess is that it will be much better than a lot of people would guess, but data would be nice.
A good trigger as well. When you're testing one component like a barrel, you need to minimize variables elsewhere, especially the meatbag on the end of the rifle. A good scope and trigger do that.
You would shoot from a vice for that.
@@billstevens5277 The thing is they weren't testing mechanical accuracy, but shift in group size. It doesn't matter what ammo or trigger they use, as long as they aim at the right point they can see the shift in group.
Wait, I thought you had a 14.5" barrel with an integral flash hider on the end, but the end card said 16" barrel with titanium flash hider. Did I miss something?
No, that’s what we decided upon.
@@InrangeTv will that be explained later?
@@ColburnFreml @InRangeTV I guess it has to do with Suppressor capability, so you can screw an A2 Birdcage or equivalent on the end of your barrel and attach your Suppressor to that.
Colburn F I believe they already said in this video that the simpler manufacturing steps for a plain Jane 16 inch beat out the weight advantage of a 14.5 p&w barrel. Since brownells is going to be producing an assembled rifle based on Ian and Karl’s recipe, being able to procure enough barrels faster is playing into the decision. By all means, play with the integrated muzzle device barrels, if that is what you wish.
You're all wrong. This has nothing to do with availability but modularity. End users need, or may want, to change the muzzle device or mount a suppressor. The 16" with titanium flash hider meets these weight requirements but still provides that functionality.
This is grade A++ content you are doing here - again, I might add.
I'd really like to see one of those WW_X_D series every year. Maybe you can take turns between AR-15, AK and maybe the HK roller-lock system? Or generally rotate through other platforms every one in a while?
quarter pounder alone or with cheese?
Royale with cheese.
I kinda died a little on the inside when I saw you had hacksawed that expensive handguard.
A $350 carbon handguard chopped up - I cried too
Honestly, the biggest (really the only thing) Im looking forward to from SHOT is the WWSD 2020.
Loved the “rifle and a burger” comment! Great video guys!
Guys. I will go to any website required to watch the WWSD2020 stuff. Can you give us a little heads up here on TH-cam if you’ve posted something elsewhere that’s too “spicy” for TH-cam. I can’t keep track of those other sites but if you post a little heads up here I’ll go where I need to.
Anything that isn't allowed under TH-cam's TOS will be hosted on Brownells website, as they are distributing the new polymer lowers and some other parts for the project
Feroce just this video and the announcement video are up on brownells at this time
Ive had my 14.5 integral now for a week or so and it's a neat little barrel. Still waiting on more parts though to finish the upper, the handguard is outta stock af and opticsplanet lied about stock when I ordered
how does brownells feel about you using optics planet targets lol
so ... it ... beginns ...
am at work with hardly any connection and potato resolution :-(
You guys should try bcm elw barrels would be perfect for your philosophy, tapered profile and light weight with more mass near the chamber.
midwestoutdoorsman I was about to suggest that! 14.5” midlength gas system enhanced lightweight mk upper!
I doubt they'd consider barrels like the ELW or Hanson from BA because they still weigh more. The faxon pencil they settled for weighs 20oz with the flash hider, the ELW 14.5 weighs 21oz on its own. It would have to perform noticeably better in their heat testing for them to consider it I'd expect. I am interested to see how the tapered barrels do on heat testing like this though, I might do a video of it on my own Hanson 14.5.
@@mikeborrelli193 The whoooooole CHF/CL thing came up during the last series and it was determined that neither is necessarily something you need. Times have changed. There are new processes and metal treatments.
@@mikeborrelli193 The Faxons are all QPQ nitrided. They will resist corrosion just as well as a chrome-lined barrel, inside and out. Chrome bores are only necessary anymore if the barrel is only blued or in the white.
@@chrysler5thavenue822 you don't neeeed to save one or two ounces either on a lighter barrel, but I'll take it.. I'll take a chf cl barrel over a nitrided button barrel too, just does better with heat.
Very happy to see Ian & Karl going with these barrels. The BA 16" pencil and Faxon 14.5" pencil with .625 flash hider are my favorite barrels, I've been extremely happy with them myself.
I have a faxon Gunner 16 and a ba pencil 16 and they're both great. The Gunner is 1:8 twist, the ba is 1:7, I can't tell the difference.
Have you looked into the carbon fiber wrapped barrels or are these still more heavy ?
Carbon fiber barrels cost 3X as much
That flash hider isn’t working well during rapid fire.
Watch the whole thing.
InRangeTV I watched it. 👍🏻 Looks like you went with a standard threaded barrel with a titanium flash hider. Titanium flash hider throw tons sparks too from what I’ve seen. Not the case here?
KnifeCursed the sparking of Ti flash hiders is only for the first couple hundred rounds, from what I’ve heard.
I am curious to know why you chose the Faxon 16in with titanium flash hider over the new Faxon 14. 5 with integral flash hider (16 OAL). My guess is this decision is to allow use of suppressors. Or, perhaps it will expedite manufacturing of the production Wwsd 2020 rifle.
Modularity and suppressor compatibility.
I get that with your info that's what stoner would do in 2020 but what would the US military do in 2020 the shot dispersion from a hot barrel may not be excepted now in the military I wish yall would try the faxon gunner and see if you got less spread with heat. Sorta bias cause I have a few in 18 inch but just curious I'd send one if yall would consider
I’ve been watching all the old wwsd videos. I’m so ready for this collab.
It would be nice if Faxon with integrated flash hider actually hid flash.
that rifle and a burger comment is funny. but that's a whole meal right there. That's more cals for your blitz or shock campaign.
Speaking of wandering zero Karl do you find that a lot of Vietnam AR15 and clones have excessive windage on the rear sight? This something I've noticed in quite a bunch of these rifles. I have a BRN16E1 that does this.
I'm led to believe the receiver faces on many of these retro guns aren't perfectly flat, leading to an off center zero. Seeing the sight dialed in one direction through the carry handle makes it even more obvious.
Fixing to put a Q Cherry Bomb on my 12.5" 6.5Grendel Faxon barrel.
If there was a solid top hand guard, would that lessen the heat mirage right in the sight line path?
How much less group expansion would there be with a heavier barrel
Mentions integrated flash hider in intro, splash screen at end says threaded.
Because that’s what we decided to do.
Mid length gas system is optimal on 14.5 barrel its actual too much dwell for 16 barrel. Check out Black River Tactical optimal gas system length for 16 build. Can notice softer recoil impulse
I'm now kinda scared of how expensive this thing might be... still excited but going to have to start saving my pennies.
That and it's through Brownells. Good company but seems like the Granger of guns. Has everything, but you'll pay for it.
Personal opinion. Eviscerate me if you need to.
I’m considering using a JP 14.5” Ultralight barrel for my WWSD clone. It comes in at 18oz. Plus you can add a heat sink that weights 4oz to that barrel. Seems like a good trade off to tune weight balance and heat capacity by adding or removing one part. As long as you’re not too worried about cost that is. Can’t wait till the new lowers start shipping, very impressed with the progress you guys and KE Arms have made given everything going on.
oh man i love these videos and i love you guys. can't wait to watch the rest!!
308 views but 5.56 guns?
Faxon makes some great stuff for the price. I’ve got 3 9mm ar & glock faxon barrels and a couple of faxon bcg’s. Been running them for a couple years and all have been great. I’ve been wanting their 14.5” pencil barrel for a while and I really need to make that happen.
Every quality tradesman is like "Nice Milwaukee sharpie." Them shits write on EVERYTHING.
I have an 18in faxon pencil barrel. I found that a suppressor added to the end really seems to cause problems with accuracy when getting hot. I have not done a serious test this is just an observation from the 600 yard steel.
In anticipation of a military contract, Mr. Stoner would also consider cost in design qualifiers. Please include cost in your presentation for those of us who would be interested in what would Stoner almost do.
Costs will be discussed when the full rifle is released via Brownells. Supply chains and volume deals, etc, are a thing.
What do you know guys... Computers can stress relive better than humans... 👍🏼
Will there be a list on Brownells of the exact parts so we can order them as you determine what is going into the WWSD build?
There will be complete rifles available via Brownells at the end of the project.
@@InrangeTv that is great but I want to do the assembly myself so will be buying the parts as I can afford them
Kinda wish y’all would use 77 grain SMK mk262 for these tests. I see it a lot differently than I guess a lot of people on these channels. I think using the absolute best and most consistent factory ammo available really takes out all the variables and shows what is really happening in accuracy. It’s bad to do an accuracy test with inaccurate ammo. But use the green tip to heat up in between shots. No use wasting mk262 on anything other than super accurate shots or badguys. Good video tho
Can't wait for the optic discussion
How bout some POLYGONAL RIFLED BARREL eh?
Did you look at carbon fiber options? Doubles the cost of your rifle, but seems like something Stoner would do..
Too busy watching to yell first.
It deeply pains me that they hacksawed a 300-400 dollar handguard
While I did not go with a pencil barrel, this video does make me feel like I made a good decision in going with a Faxon barrel for my latest build.
Isnt a gov profile barrel pencil thickness from the chamber to the gas block? Unless your gun is full auto or used for sustained rapid fire, is there any reason to not use pencil?
Gov profile is a little thicker than Faxon pencil, the Gunner profile matches government from chamber to block journal
The faxon 14.5 pencil with pinned flash is no longer for sale :( is it planned to be re-released?
This is the year
I built my wwsd but I used a heavy profile 20" and left the poi shift due to heat. If I am going to add weight it needs to count.
Also the monolithic rail down the hand guard removes( provides a window) where the heat does not effect the target.
Off topic, but what jacket is Ian wearing?
i appreciate what yall are doing here , if i had money id donate , but im broke af so i comment, pls forgive me .
I feel bad for all the people in california who can't own one of these, nevermind I'm British
Implications with any longer barrel length?
What was the range of the targets? 100yd?
This creates an interesting legality question for my New York. It doesn’t have a “muzzle device” as it’s integral to the barrel, but the safe act does make specific mention of flash hiders. Question is if I’m brave enough to try this and defend it if I’m called out with it.
Watch the whole thing.
InRangeTV might have missed something while watching this at the height of my morning commute. The issue I’m seeing is that my local police chief said he’s never gotten real guidance about stuff unless it’s specific to the law like no mags over ten rounds. If I’m missing something obvious just ignore me. I’m sure the lightbulb will go off later.
I did a similar video but tested a BCM medium weight barrel vs a lightweight. I found that the heat mirage was the bigger issues that affected accuracy. Because thin barrels are.... well... thin, they cool down relatively quickly thus the mirage drops to a manageable level. I didn’t notice much degradation in accuracy.
You should sell those guns to the German military.
I'm wierd I want a 20 inch barrel because I can but I plan to run the lightest barrel I can I'm going to try it for fun
Don't quote me on this but I believe I remember hearing that the ballistic advantage between 16" and 20" is very slight.
@@painmagnet1 It's a tradeoff. 20" barrels do significantly up the muzzle velocity and can stabilize some rounds better with normie twistrates.
The downside is a thin barrel that is longer will inherently be less rigid which may affect accuracy/precision. If you're gonna stretch much past say 300m in engagements the 20"er will have more lethal less wind-affected bullets going to target, but a thinner 20 might suffer an accuracy penalty for the weight.
I’ve got the 20” gunner on mine, powder doesn’t like to burn when it’s -20°F. My upper is damn near WWSD but with a standard lower it’s pretty back heavy. 20s can be light too.
@@509Gman that's good to hear I'm really concerned about ballistic performance as I kill shit with my ar15s pretty frequently gotta help keep the neighbors livestock safe
Hi InRange. Can you please tell me why you've changed the targets when you tested faxon barrel ? The group before heating up looks completely different from the group after heating up ( I mean the circuled holes don't line up). Looks like you've changed paper. Have you done 2 runs ?
We did multiple runs, all with the same results. This is an artifact of editing.
Thanks for reply. That is what I thought.
I'm surprised by the 16" barrel. I'd imagine Eugene Stoner would go with 20" to get the optimum performance out of the 5.56
When you guys re-check charging handles, I'm curious if you'll check out Radian Raptor SD handles since they're suppressor "optimized" by cutting slots in the handle.
If you guys really wanted to follow Stoner's example, I would suggest an 18 barrel or a 16 inch rifle length gas barrel. The rifle length gas system is key to what Stoner envisioned for the 5.56 round. You get a full powder burn of the cartridge and increased dwell time, which means less gas blowback, reduced felt recoil, and easier cleaning...
Curious to see how Bear Creek Arsenal's two 16" pencil barrels measure up. They offer a $60 4150CMV parkerized barrel, and a $70 416R SS 5r barrel.
I only run Faxon barrels
So with advancements in body armour are you guys going to look into calibre's that are supposedly more effective against body armour than 5.56?
Is there a twenty inch version of this thin barrel?
With a bullet / load recipe I’ve been testing for a while in my lr308, the 20” BA barrel will actuality have tighter groups after warming up. There is a little bit of shift from cold bore, but after a couple rounds it stays in place (haven’t get it smoking but I’ll frequently shoot 25 rounds in
I feel like AR10s and analogues really should be optimized more for longer ranged shooting. With the first WWSD you seemed to be designing it mostly for close and medium range engagement, and you could push it out a bit if absolutely necessary, whereas I'm wondering if it shouldn't be reversed for the WWSD2020
I used a Ballistic Advantage barrel on a 6.5 Creedmoor A.R. 10 and I am very pleased with it.
During barrel break in I put the last five rounds into a group measuring .3 inches.
I’ve got a few hundred rounds through the rifle now and it’s still a tack driver. 😎❤️
While I didn't build an exact copy of the WWSD mk.1*, I have to say the critical thinking and methodology y'all use has been crucial when building AR's. Asking what I want it to do, what compromises I'm willing to make, and being willing to bite the bullet and spend a little extra on testing things. Critical thinking rather than dogma, that's why I love InRange.
*Even with my own set up that faxon barrel makes a world of difference. My friends say the thing feels like it's a toy from how light it is.
I may never build an AR, but if I do, barrel length isn't an issue. Will you have a varient for non Americans?
Yes, we will definitely be deploying a European build.
Nice to see this again. Karl you can't tell me you did not get a kick out of the mag dump.
I did not get a kick out of the mag dump.
@@InrangeTv The lead sled takes the "kick" out. That's the point of it, right?
I was tempted to go full pencil thanks to your older WWSD series. I decided to compromise by going with a BA "Hanson" profile; Tapers down to pencil. Might try full pencil next time.
If you are thinking about a 14.5” barrel I don’t recommend getting a integral built into the barrel model if you have any thoughts of suppressor use. I had a ruger sr556 with a integral flash hider and when I wanted a suppressor there was no option and I ended up buying a 14.5” upper and spending 30 bucks to have a flash hider pinned and welded. Then I never felt like shooting the ruger and traded it to a gun shop.
Very much looking forward to the brownells/inrange collaboration lowers. I'm in WA state, and the politicians are grumbling, so hurry up and release them. Ha ha
In maryland where I live, I need to have a "heavy barrel" ar-15 in order for it to be legal. The only other way around it is to use non, 5.56 calibers or to build pistols. Given that what's my best option? I'm open to all informed opinions
Which Faxon barrel are we using? Are we using a Gunner? I want to buy a Gunner... =) nevermind... Pencil not gunner. Maybe you'll convince me to get a pencil and not a gunner. ty
Good to know, but I still favor the "Gunner" and "Hanson" profile barrels from each manufacturer.
can we have a WWSD2020 playlist pls
I have a build with a BA Hanson 14.5 pencil. 625 gas block barrel. It is a wonderful barrel the are so well gassed never had a softer shooting ar
Off topic, but that is one sexy jacket Ian, where can I get one?
Great vid as usual, awesome info!
Please do more old west videos Karl. They are some of the best on youtube. Maybe you could talk about some of the suicide special revolvers carried by common folk in the 1870s and talk about self defense culture of the time and how it has changed from then in the 21st century.
take a look at the criterion barrel.
It would have been easier to install a linear compensator then cut your handguard. A extended handguard on a carbine is a extremely useful format. As the supporting hand is farther forward. This aids control and stability when unsupported. A lightweight handstop is a needed though.
Yeah, imma take the rifle with a side of burger then. Plus, at what point, if at all, do these rifles become too light? Possibly becoming so light that human physiology such as muscle 'tremor' (for want of a better term), brachial arterial pulse, and fine motor skill limitations mean that getting on target is like threading a needle...
Hard to tell from my phone screen, but are the group sizes more or less the same? I would be curious as to what the cut off point of weight to accuracy is for you guys. I imagine if one shot 3"/6" then the heavier one somehow managed 3"/4" or something, that would need to factor into the decision, would it not?
Will you guys be releasing more of these update videos? I am anxiously awaiting them.
Are you going to cover the re-enactment of the John Dillinger capture in Tucson? I, and I feel others, would enjoy your take on this.