Thank you for the intel. In the 70’s and 80’s, I worked for Baldor in St. Louis. I was more involved in the manufacturing part, but a good friend and his dad were toolmakers there. They used Jo blocks, but they also used optical flats with polarized light to get very accurate measurements. They would lap carbide die segments with diamond dust for a shrink fit. I believe he told me they could get down to 0.000015”. Fifteen millionths! Incredible! I loved going over to the tool and die dept. to have lunch with my friend. It was cleaner than any hospital.
optical flats are still being used but not many know how to use them. I've seen them laying around in the tool crib....sadly, unprotected and dirty because true tool and die making has become a rare skillset in the USA.
Actually when it comes to lapping and hand finishing, 15 millionths is pretty loose. That is more than 1 full fringe on the optical flat. You can get better than 1 millionth if you try.
To accurately stack gage blocks, you need to have the certification specifications to compensate for the individual blocks. Proper 'wringing', temperature-controlled environment will also affect stack heights. Ceramic, carbide and steel blocks have different coefficients of expansion. At one time, scribed lines were one way of accurate hole location, so even the width of the scribe line has to be compensated for in practice, as the scribed line was higher than the true location wanted. Thanks, Mr. Pete.
My heat expansion calculation has always been for steel .000006 ( count 5 zeros then number 6 in my calculator)x inches x degrees. Its so easy to remember. Great video. I bought a set of square Pratt and whitney blocks with holes and all accessories from an old tool and die maker for 500 dollars. not cheap but I was happy to get it
Thank You Lyle.....The very old but still pristine Gage Blocks in the tool cabinet where I work have a piece of Chamois Leather laying over the top. I was told to NEVER touch the blocks with my bare hands. Use the Chamois to keep the acids from my hand off of the Gage Blocks. TM
Likewise, I use white cotton gloves to handle the blocks, (a fresh pair each time and then throw away), also keep a silica bag in the box. (I also will not keep the box in the workshop as it is an outbuilding and humidity and temperature control is not the best, my wife is delighted!).
Thanks Mr Pete. In the 1970's I worked in a lab where we had a set of "Jo" blocks. They had the Ford trademark on them and I was always curious about why that was. Now I know!! Thanks again for great video(s).
These short subjects are a great addition to your channel Mr. Pete. I learned why they're called Jo blocks from a machinist many years ago but appreciate the extra details of his story.
Thank You so much for all your vidoes. My late father was a tool an die maker from the Chicago land area and my late Grandfather was a spring maker from Chicago. I have all of there tools and have Dad's mill, lathe and surface grinder. You remind me alot of dad. Dad taught me enough to be dangerous but I'm trying to learn more. Wish I was still in Illinois at times and could visit your shop.
I've always wanted a set of original Johannsen blocks. Thus far, the best I've been able to find is one single original Jo-block that is marked Johannsen and Ford. It's stamped on the bottom F8V so I assume that means it was used in the production of Ford eight-cylinder motors. Not much of a "score," but a neat piece of history. However, at the same flea market I bought a two-foot Chinese made vernier height gauge for a whopping $15 bucks, in great shape. That's not bad when a bottle Coke is almost $3 bucks at the gas station nowadays!
This summer I was at a flea market and a tool seller had a box of assorted 'Hoke' square gauge blocks, probably 30 in a cardboard box with duplicates. Some say Pratt & Whitney and some say Johansen FORD. I asked the price.......$20! I paid for them quickly.
Our shop machines (milled) mostly two critical dimensional parts, many very large. We did little volumetric machining. For this reason we had a lot of flat bed mills twin column, twin bridge casted column and large C framed machines. Although we were a relatively small manufacturer, we were at one time the world's second largest consumer of mic-6 material. This material is stable, highly polished, flat and thickness dimensionally very accurate. Most of our parts were machined from double stacked 3/4" material. Hole size, hole center to hole center and edge to hole center were our most critical dimensions. Profiles were less critical. Many dimensions were held to "tenths". To maintain machine accuracy we inspected parts on a large CMM, but when machine inspection was required we relied mostly on our Mitutoyo 60" step gauge. This gauge was a cast frame that held stacked .005000?? Jo blocks of alternating short and tall height. This gave us 1" incremental steps to indicate and inspect any linear axis accuracy. We also had a solid ground step gauge for shorter distances on 1" increments. Indicating the gauge parallel to axis travel allowed us to indicate linear error on one inch increments. We would compensate to .0001" or less which was as close as we could reliably indicate and our machine tools could maintain. Occasionally I contracted laser inspection, but we never invested in owning that technology. We could only interpolate error between the 1" steps and subsequently inspect machined parts on the CMM to confirm linear pitch error compensation accuracy. Machined parts accuracy naturally introduced other accuracy dynamics, but this system worked well for us. We had little provision for confirming squareness between axis. We had a AA granite square, but it was less than 15" and only used to measure Z and W axis relationships to X and Y axis. X and Y axis error was not mechanically compensateable by machine design, so if a part required greater accuracy than the machine design, operators had to rely on programmed taper moves or hole center offsets. All of these technologies address the demands of the user. I purchased a .000050" indicator to inspect and set up a gear grinder. The total travel is only .004". It has been seldom used. Most of our machines couldn't hold that accuracy so using it was superfluous. The majority of my indicators are .0001 and .0005 for that reason. That Mitutoyo step gauge was the most practical use of Jo blocks in my career experience. Once assembled and inspected that gauge was never disassembled and always kept in the controlled environment of our inspection lab. The QA boys didn't like us lowly maintenance techs taking their gauge to the shop floor, but only Maintenance was trained in parameter compensation procedures and documentation maintenance. We had 120" travel capacity on our largest mill and other mills also exceeded the capacity of our gauge. Moving the gauge for machine inspection and compensation to service an entire axis travel added a great deal of effort and introduced much opportunity for error. But you work with the best tools that you own and use the best practices possible. In the age of SPC dominance, we came close to investing in better technology. Laser infrarometer with linear and squareness capacity, electronic levels, ball bar and other toys were on my wishlist. Cost, adequate training and practice to stay sharp, specialized machine setup requirements, and production allowing downtime for inspection and correction meant we never invested in this technology. SPC made sense for us in the large lot size machining days, but after one piece flow became predominant, SPC statistics became obsolete. But .. I would have loved to own and have played with those toys.
very interesting, especially the extra credit part......I use a height gauge for my layouts, it is so fast....Dial indicator for these old eyes....my granite surface plate was lost when my wife gave my truck away to some scraper when we were separated., it was in the truck..errrrr....so now I use a piece of polished stone from the company across the street that makes sinks.....it is all I need for my fabrication layouts....but I miss the Black Granite real surface plate...
Are used to have a larger black granite plate. But it was quite sick and too heavy for me to move so I threw it away, unfortunately. I would like to get a sink cut out from a granite company. That would be plenty good for what I do
@@mrpete222 I dug mine from the dumpster......they do a lot of water jet fancy sinks here.....all the rage you know......really enjoyed the Johanssen video....
@@mrpete222 Mr Pete, off cuts and scraps around here are dumped at the gravel pits where they get crushed. Go take a look, keep your eyes open for Mrs. Pete, you can probably find some nice bits for rolling pie dough on etc. John PS keep up the great work.
Please comment on what one can do without a surface plate or what alternatives exist for quasi-flat household items - panes of glass, marble or granite cutting boards and the like.
Use your mill table. Find a piece of granite counter top. The cutout for a sink is a good size. It won’t be surface plate flat but granite countertops are ground and polished making them surprisingly flat. A piece of quartz countertop would work as well. These options would likely be more than adequate for the home shop hobby guy.
I've been told plate glass is pretty flat - ordinary glass having a wavy-ish surface. I use a * thick * piece of the ordinary with a sheet of sandpaper for polishing my no-accuracy-required projects, and get a nice finish.
@@MrPossumeyes - If someone is going looking for flat glass to use as surface, the search term should be for “float glass”. The manufacturing process is to poor a glop of molten glass on top of a surface of water(?); yielding the flattest possible as-poured surface.
@@joeromanak8797 Thanks for that! I got my bit from a skip bin - thought it might come in handy and dived in. Had to take some pointy bits off though. Float glass, eh? 👍
@@bobbydazzler6990 - I wavered on that point as I was typing (hence the ? mark inserted). After it posted, I imagined what the result of dumping molten glass into water might look like (not pretty, lol). So, I should have researched the process before posting. The point remains that float glass is what you need if you need a usable alternative to a granite surface. Thanks for the clarification. 🥸👍
I used them in the machine shop at Buick, but thought they were calling them ‘jewel blocks’. Thanks for that info. But if Johansson is pronounced ‘Yohansson’, then they should be called ‘Yo blocks’ LOL.
3:30 Henry Ford brought Johanssson to the U.S. shortly after WWI to make precision gage blocks for Ford's manufacturing plants. My ex-wife's grandfather, a Swedish immigrant, was working for Ford's Steel Division as an engineering manager. Mr. Ford called Gus Hagelthorn** one day and asked him to sponsor this Johansson guy thru the immigration process, They set Johansson up in the basement of the EEE building (it looks like one of the Greenfield Village buildings, but is actually another property) to make his precision blocks. **Gus had been sent to Philadelphia around 1914 by SKF Ball Bearing Company to set up their first Ball Bearing factory in the U.S. He was the first President of SKF-U.S. After the War he left SKF because he wanted to stay in the U.S. with his growing family. They wanted him back in Sweden - or else. So he quit and took a position with Ford.
One mistake that will negate all the accuracy of the gauge block scriber is that people do not take into account the thickness of the scribe line. It is between .001 and ~.004. Your setup will place the EDGE of the line at 2.375 but the center of the line will be 1.376-2.377. Later when you try to use the center of the lines you will be out .001-.002 even if you perfectly locate on the line center. I always take care to scribe consistently .002 and reduce my height by half that line width , normally -.001 so I would have set it for 2.374 to get 2.375 in the center of the line.
@@DEtchells I'm glad my ancient noob mistake prevents your current noob mistake. Please pass it on. (BTW it also applies to the thickness of the lines on optical comparitors, whos lines are similarly .002-.004 thick.and should be accounted for.)
Several years ago I was fortunate enough to buy a set of Pratt & Whitney Inspection grade Gauge blocks that came in what looks like a Bakelite box. I consider myself as the temporary keeper of them as I am certain they will find a good home once I am gone.
The name Johansson actually means Johan's son, and if it was a daughter, it would be Johansdotter. That last name probably isn't Swiss, as he may have been an immigrant. Johan is the same name in English as John. This last name practice isn't commonly used today as you'll find something like Jim Johansdotter in Europe, and maybe here in the States.
Love your short series videos. I had 3 Uncles that worked at Wescloxs for their entire lives. one was a machinist and one was a too and diemaker. thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Given that the utility of layout lines is largely dependent on the keenness of the operator's eyes, I cannot think of a reason to ever need that level of accuracy in layout work. Is their an alternate use that could take advantage of the increased accuracy such as inspection?
I think most people won't use this setup anymore, since scribing for precision manufacturing is outdated. I reckon that it have been used more back then, since accurate height gages and scribes were probably more expensive back then, it also comes to my mind that calibration wasn't very easy some time ago, so it probably made sense to have a tool which doesn't need to be calibrated, just inspected from time to time, nowadays height gages are rather cheap especially the import ones, now it's more of a relict of the old days, manufacturers probably still produce them since they rack up the part count in their gage block accessory assortment kits, and they can charge for them. It's the same with sharpening steels, they are actually obsolete, but old habits are hard to break and most butchers still swear on them, even if a cheap import 400 grit diamond plate works better and faster that a professional sharpening steel from a reputable manufacturer.
I also love height gauges Mr Pete. I have rather an unusual one. It is an old British make called the Ape Microball. It uses a column of ball bearings for the coarse adjustment. It is very accurate. Great video as always!
Thanks Mr. Pete that was an interesting bite sized bit of information, I enjoyed it. Thanks also for the "extra credit" without which I would never have earned a high school diploma.
Did not know why we call gauge blocks Jo blocks. Thank you for the history lesson. Is there any relationship between Carl and the fabled Johansson drill presses?
Right On! 👍 Great Video Mr. Peterson!! I love hearing the history and watching the demonstration! Thanks for all of your videos. I’ve been watching since nearly your start on TH-cam.
CEJ actually stands for Carl Edward Johansson, hence the E in the logo. I believe that he moved back to Sweden in 1936 at the respectable age of 72, and later passed away in 1943. I also believe that Ford only bought the American part of the company, since they made tools here in Sweden much later (In Eskilstuna) Today it's difficult even here in Sweden to research the company, but since 2002 it is incorporated into Hexagon meteorology Nordic AB. PS I found your channel when I started restoring and modernizing my own Southbend 9 clone, Best regards from Sweden !
@@mrpete222 My father new his story, but I think many don't, I actually got a CEJ micrometer that I bought used today, good condition 0-25mm manufactured in 1942.
Love the precision. When I was a toolmaker we had to grind anything under .003" tolerance. By the time I left the industry we were finishing bearing diameters by lathe turning a 20 micron tolerance on diameter on over 1,000 bearing shafts per day while maintaining .08Um PMR surface finish and 1.66 Cp/Cpk capability.
That is a beautiful tool Lyle, we love it a pre-B&S thank you for sharing it, and for the history lesson read about them on Wikipedia a while back, love these stories all the time. Lance & Patrick.
@@mrpete222 Working and filming our product build slow we truly are but planned we surely are equally as well. We love seeing you in your videos and we enjoy the sit-down videos of late from you as well Lyle. Hello Mrs. Lyle, please. L&P
those tools are absolutely beautiful. I own a B&S Height gage (No 585) that was missing the scribber clamp. I found one on eBay for another gage; it was just a few thousandths too tight to fit. Well diligent file work solved that and now it works quite well
Great bit of well explained history Lyle. We views as hobbyist could only dream to have the collection you shared with us. thx for the History lesson and great shorty,,Bear.
Great Video mr Pete and I have used a Height gage and scribe before and the couple small machine shops that I know of They still use them on a daily basis ! My father when he worked at one the Goverment Navy yards he took a class on how to use a height gage and gage blocks and scribe !
I have several sets of gage blocks I've bought over the years both rectangular and square. Also have a accessory set for both types, too. My best find was a new complete 81 piece Webber rectangular set I picked up from a pawn shop locally for under $100. Never been used! Even had certifications of each block done by Webber and was a separate charge form the price of the gage blocks. I always thought that "Fonda" gage blocks was part of Ford and Johannesen. As always thanks for sharing. Ken
Swedish (metric)Johansson started making inch blocks with a size of 25.4 mm since 1912. And both British and American Standards Association adopted his definition in 1930 and 1933.
Is a Cadillac gauge as accurate an alternative to setting your height gage as stacking Jo blocks? Can a home shop justify the cost of a Cadillac gauge? Are we already stepping into granite surface plate accuracy that is priced out of the home shop budget? Right now I am settling for a Mitutoyo electronic height gauge very few gauge blocks and a shop grade granite inspection plate of dubious origin. The tool and die maker used my inspection plate as his his personal plate and testified that it was accurate. I don't own any machinery that can machine any closer, so I am currently satisfied.
When I started work in 1972 I used Moore and Wright Slip Gauges, aka Joey blocks, no one knew or could tell me why we called them Joey blocks, 50 years later I've found out, thanks Mr Pete, ATB from England
Mr.Pete Thanks for your always informative videos! You should make another video showing how those other Jo Block attachments are used, such as creating an ID checking gage for verifying inside diameters of parts, with the sets included special radii Jo blocks stacked on either end, in combination with regular Jo blocks to produce an exact correct size "Go gage" to be checked for inspection. You can also set a Bore dial indicator with stack of Jo blocks for inspection or as an operator tool. Also, you can scribe lower than 1 3/8 dimension by just using desired size Jo block(s) using just the scriber "wrung" on top of your Jo Block(s).
I do plan to make a video about the other attachments, if enough people watch this one. I do not think there is much interest in this. Which disappoints me
moderndaytinker here A simple,fast, and accurate way of coming up with a "stack" --- Put the wanted dimensions in your calculator -- start subtracting the largest whole dimension -- Working down the decimal points (left to right). Try it. 😎👍
I don't know if I explained it correctly -- but once you do it, it will be apparent how to do it. Any dimensions down to the "tenth" , even with missing blocks,can be quickly found 😎
Actually, you should start with the least significant digit (0.0001) and work to the left. For 7.8754", you start with 0.1004 which leaves 7.775. The next block will be 0.125 which leaves 7.65. The next block is 0.65 which leaves 7. If you don't have a 7 then you'll have to use a 4 and a 3.
I have a slightly bigger CEJ accessory set (but not the big complete set) but of UK manufacture, all in perfect condition in protective grease. Nice to have.
By fastidious offset stacking you _could_ scribe lower than 1.375. ______________ _________\______________\______ | |______________|< Set the scriber to the bottom of this block |_______________|
Great Video Mr Pete. I have one of these sets I always wondered what it was used for. Mine was from 1942 as well Set 44 Serial number 5980. I picked it up at an auction last year. Ive had it for sale for about a year now. Actually a guy just made me an offer on it today. Maybe he watched this video as well. Im thinking on keeping it now. I really enjoy these videos keep up the good work.
Lol You dont need a Book to set up a gage block dimension IF you know how to ADD !! I have used both Do All Gages as well as Pratt and Whitney Laboratory Inspection Square blocks for Inspections as well as Critical Height Layouts .I Have square gage blocks up to 12 Inches in length .Gage blocks are made in carbide , as well as Ceramic Material as well . mr pete this old fellow like myself is correct , and Fun to watch HaHa .... he is old school , as I am Enjoy !
Thanks for the share of knowledge Mr. Pete. ??? Can you look into this: a drop of water measures one centimeter in diameter on a surface plate? I read this in a book not too long ago and it was supposed to have been originated in ancient Egypt as a repeatable unit of measure....probably at sea level and distilled water etc. but please see if it's even close to being accurate. Thanks!!!
Since the scriber or measuring tip is 'stuck out', the tower part has to be absoutely vertical, and that looks a bit questionable in that design (to my eye anyway). Same for all height guages of course and worse the longer the tip is.
I have pretty much always driven Ford's with a couple of 1960's Buicks thrown in. I work part time for a Chevy dealership now so I'm driving a Chevy pickup now. Great video. I've done some shop classes at the local community college. I wish I'd of done it years ago.
i have a large set of Weber gauge blocks in a beautiful original case. they say Weber Cleveland. i have a small set also same markings BUT mine are not complete, i need about 7 of them, have the whole other small set and nice box to swap, as well as some ICC thrown in to make almost complete set. Could you make a 1.375 drop pointer block? i never knew why my Brown and Sharpe gauge similar to yours will not go to zero, i think the scribe is wrong to the unit. ALSO. a million thanks i learn every time i click on your channel.
Actually I had thought about making a scriber as you were just as mentioned. But it would have to be made with the same precision as the blocks, and that is impossible
@@mrpete222 well i will someday make a zero {well close to} scribe for my B&S like yours, as its unuseable with the probably homemade one on it. mine is a good .500 off and its not flat on the bottom angle
I wonder if this is the same Johansson that built small knee milling machines? Johansson was bought out by Atlas/Clausing and became their models 8520 & 8530.
If it's accurate to the ten thousandth (0.0001) shouldn't it read 1.3750 to indicate that? Understand that your blocks are only good to the thousandth so that's the best you can get out of the gage using those blocks, but the height gage itself you said is accurate to the ten thousandth.
Thank you for the intel. In the 70’s and 80’s, I worked for Baldor in St. Louis. I was more involved in the manufacturing part, but a good friend and his dad were toolmakers there. They used Jo blocks, but they also used optical flats with polarized light to get very accurate measurements. They would lap carbide die segments with diamond dust for a shrink fit. I believe he told me they could get down to 0.000015”. Fifteen millionths! Incredible!
I loved going over to the tool and die dept. to have lunch with my friend. It was cleaner than any hospital.
optical flats are still being used but not many know how to use them. I've seen them laying around in the tool crib....sadly, unprotected and dirty because true tool and die making has become a rare skillset in the USA.
Actually when it comes to lapping and hand finishing, 15 millionths is pretty loose. That is more than 1 full fringe on the optical flat. You can get better than 1 millionth if you try.
@@billshiff2060 my brother-in-law did optical green laser alignments to HALF that. He was always stressed out.
@@StanErvin-yo9vl The stress is what makes it FUN. Once you achieve it you'll feel like a millionTH bucks! 🤣
What the hell are they building where they need to be 15,000,000s accuracy…???
To accurately stack gage blocks, you need to have the certification specifications to compensate for the individual blocks. Proper 'wringing', temperature-controlled environment will also affect stack heights. Ceramic, carbide and steel blocks have different coefficients of expansion. At one time, scribed lines were one way of accurate hole location, so even the width of the scribe line has to be compensated for in practice, as the scribed line was higher than the true location wanted. Thanks, Mr. Pete.
I really cant think of any application that would require such precision
@@smashyrashy, I can think of _many_ - but none that I would attempt with manual gages. jus' sayin'
@@seanflanagan2441 such as?
Rocket surgery, nuclear Armageddon?
@@smashyrashy they use guage blocks in the nano spheres all the time!
_notes sarcasm_
Thanks for keeping our trade going with these videos.
My heat expansion calculation has always been for steel .000006 ( count 5 zeros then number 6 in my calculator)x inches x degrees. Its so easy to remember. Great video. I bought a set of square Pratt and whitney blocks with holes and all accessories from an old tool and die maker for 500 dollars. not cheap but I was happy to get it
You got a fantastic price and a great deal.
@@glennschemitsch8341 5 x the price of a cheapo china 81 pc set but I was happy to pay it. You don't see them often in a nice complete set.
Thank You Lyle.....The very old but still pristine Gage Blocks in the tool cabinet where I work have a piece of Chamois Leather laying over the top. I was told to NEVER touch the blocks with my bare hands. Use the Chamois to keep the acids from my hand off of the Gage Blocks. TM
Same thing with a real samurai sword if you ever get the opportunity.
Likewise, I use white cotton gloves to handle the blocks, (a fresh pair each time and then throw away), also keep a silica bag in the box. (I also will not keep the box in the workshop as it is an outbuilding and humidity and temperature control is not the best, my wife is delighted!).
Thanks Mr Pete. In the 1970's I worked in a lab where we had a set of "Jo" blocks. They had the Ford trademark on them and I was always curious about why that was. Now I know!! Thanks again for great video(s).
Very interesting lesson.
These short subjects are a great addition to your channel Mr. Pete. I learned why they're called Jo blocks from a machinist many years ago but appreciate the extra details of his story.
Thank You so much for all your vidoes. My late father was a tool an die maker from the Chicago land area and my late Grandfather was a spring maker from Chicago. I have all of there tools and have Dad's mill, lathe and surface grinder. You remind me alot of dad. Dad taught me enough to be dangerous but I'm trying to learn more. Wish I was still in Illinois at times and could visit your shop.
👍👍
I've always wanted a set of original Johannsen blocks. Thus far, the best I've been able to find is one single original Jo-block that is marked Johannsen and Ford. It's stamped on the bottom F8V so I assume that means it was used in the production of Ford eight-cylinder motors. Not much of a "score," but a neat piece of history.
However, at the same flea market I bought a two-foot Chinese made vernier height gauge for a whopping $15 bucks, in great shape. That's not bad when a bottle Coke is almost $3 bucks at the gas station nowadays!
This summer I was at a flea market and a tool seller had a box of assorted 'Hoke' square gauge blocks, probably 30 in a cardboard box with duplicates. Some say Pratt & Whitney and some say Johansen FORD. I asked the price.......$20! I paid for them quickly.
I didn't know thats why they were called Jo blocks! Thx Mr. Pete! Love the practical mixed with the historical information! 😁
Our shop machines (milled) mostly two critical dimensional parts, many very large. We did little volumetric machining. For this reason we had a lot of flat bed mills twin column, twin bridge casted column and large C framed machines. Although we were a relatively small manufacturer, we were at one time the world's second largest consumer of mic-6 material. This material is stable, highly polished, flat and thickness dimensionally very accurate. Most of our parts were machined from double stacked 3/4" material. Hole size, hole center to hole center and edge to hole center were our most critical dimensions. Profiles were less critical. Many dimensions were held to "tenths". To maintain machine accuracy we inspected parts on a large CMM, but when machine inspection was required we relied mostly on our Mitutoyo 60" step gauge. This gauge was a cast frame that held stacked .005000?? Jo blocks of alternating short and tall height. This gave us 1" incremental steps to indicate and inspect any linear axis accuracy. We also had a solid ground step gauge for shorter distances on 1" increments. Indicating the gauge parallel to axis travel allowed us to indicate linear error on one inch increments. We would compensate to .0001" or less which was as close as we could reliably indicate and our machine tools could maintain. Occasionally I contracted laser inspection, but we never invested in owning that technology. We could only interpolate error between the 1" steps and subsequently inspect machined parts on the CMM to confirm linear pitch error compensation accuracy. Machined parts accuracy naturally introduced other accuracy dynamics, but this system worked well for us.
We had little provision for confirming squareness between axis. We had a AA granite square, but it was less than 15" and only used to measure Z and W axis relationships to X and Y axis. X and Y axis error was not mechanically compensateable by machine design, so if a part required greater accuracy than the machine design, operators had to rely on programmed taper moves or hole center offsets.
All of these technologies address the demands of the user. I purchased a .000050" indicator to inspect and set up a gear grinder. The total travel is only .004". It has been seldom used. Most of our machines couldn't hold that accuracy so using it was superfluous. The majority of my indicators are .0001 and .0005 for that reason.
That Mitutoyo step gauge was the most practical use of Jo blocks in my career experience. Once assembled and inspected that gauge was never disassembled and always kept in the controlled environment of our inspection lab. The QA boys didn't like us lowly maintenance techs taking their gauge to the shop floor, but only Maintenance was trained in parameter compensation procedures and documentation maintenance. We had 120" travel capacity on our largest mill and other mills also exceeded the capacity of our gauge. Moving the gauge for machine inspection and compensation to service an entire axis travel added a great deal of effort and introduced much opportunity for error. But you work with the best tools that you own and use the best practices possible.
In the age of SPC dominance, we came close to investing in better technology. Laser infrarometer with linear and squareness capacity, electronic levels, ball bar and other toys were on my wishlist. Cost, adequate training and practice to stay sharp, specialized machine setup requirements, and production allowing downtime for inspection and correction meant we never invested in this technology.
SPC made sense for us in the large lot size machining days, but after one piece flow became predominant, SPC statistics became obsolete.
But .. I would have loved to own and have played with those toys.
That must’ve been quite a shop that you worked in. thank you
very interesting, especially the extra credit part......I use a height gauge for my layouts, it is so fast....Dial indicator for these old eyes....my granite surface plate was lost when my wife gave my truck away to some scraper when we were separated., it was in the truck..errrrr....so now I use a piece of polished stone from the company across the street that makes sinks.....it is all I need for my fabrication layouts....but I miss the Black Granite real surface plate...
Are used to have a larger black granite plate. But it was quite sick and too heavy for me to move so I threw it away, unfortunately. I would like to get a sink cut out from a granite company. That would be plenty good for what I do
@@mrpete222 I dug mine from the dumpster......they do a lot of water jet fancy sinks here.....all the rage you know......really enjoyed the Johanssen video....
@@mrpete222 Mr Pete, off cuts and scraps around here are dumped at the gravel pits where they get crushed. Go take a look, keep your eyes open for Mrs. Pete, you can probably find some nice bits for rolling pie dough on etc.
John
PS keep up the great work.
Please comment on what one can do without a surface plate or what alternatives exist for quasi-flat household items - panes of glass, marble or granite cutting boards and the like.
Use your mill table.
Find a piece of granite counter top. The cutout for a sink is a good size. It won’t be surface plate flat but granite countertops are ground and polished making them surprisingly flat.
A piece of quartz countertop would work as well.
These options would likely be more than adequate for the home shop hobby guy.
I've been told plate glass is pretty flat - ordinary glass having a wavy-ish surface. I use a * thick * piece of the ordinary with a sheet of sandpaper for polishing my no-accuracy-required projects, and get a nice finish.
@@MrPossumeyes - If someone is going looking for flat glass to use as surface, the search term should be for “float glass”. The manufacturing process is to poor a glop of molten glass on top of a surface of water(?); yielding the flattest possible as-poured surface.
@@joeromanak8797 Thanks for that! I got my bit from a skip bin - thought it might come in handy and dived in. Had to take some pointy bits off though. Float glass, eh? 👍
@@bobbydazzler6990 - I wavered on that point as I was typing (hence the ? mark inserted). After it posted, I imagined what the result of dumping molten glass into water might look like (not pretty, lol). So, I should have researched the process before posting. The point remains that float glass is what you need if you need a usable alternative to a granite surface. Thanks for the clarification. 🥸👍
The shorts are great thanks for doing them.
I used them in the machine shop at Buick, but thought they were calling them ‘jewel blocks’. Thanks for that info. But if Johansson is pronounced ‘Yohansson’, then they should be called ‘Yo blocks’ LOL.
lol
3:30 Henry Ford brought Johanssson to the U.S. shortly after WWI to make precision gage blocks for Ford's manufacturing plants. My ex-wife's grandfather, a Swedish immigrant, was working for Ford's Steel Division as an engineering manager. Mr. Ford called Gus Hagelthorn** one day and asked him to sponsor this Johansson guy thru the immigration process, They set Johansson up in the basement of the EEE building (it looks like one of the Greenfield Village buildings, but is actually another property) to make his precision blocks.
**Gus had been sent to Philadelphia around 1914 by SKF Ball Bearing Company to set up their first Ball Bearing factory in the U.S. He was the first President of SKF-U.S. After the War he left SKF because he wanted to stay in the U.S. with his growing family. They wanted him back in Sweden - or else. So he quit and took a position with Ford.
Great informative video. I try never to have to measure, blocks just make it so much easier and precise.
Thank you for sharing. Enjoyed.👍👀
Hey Mr Pete thanks for another great video
One mistake that will negate all the accuracy of the gauge block scriber is that people do not take into account the thickness of the scribe line. It is between .001 and ~.004. Your setup will place the EDGE of the line at 2.375 but the center of the line will be 1.376-2.377. Later when you try to use the center of the lines you will be out .001-.002 even if you perfectly locate on the line center. I always take care to scribe consistently .002 and reduce my height by half that line width , normally -.001 so I would have set it for 2.374 to get 2.375 in the center of the line.
Ah, that’s a good tip. I’m a noob hobby machinist, and that wouldn’t have occurred to me at first blush. Thanks!
@@DEtchells I'm glad my ancient noob mistake prevents your current noob mistake. Please pass it on.
(BTW it also applies to the thickness of the lines on optical comparitors, whos lines are similarly .002-.004 thick.and should be accounted for.)
Thanks Mr. Pete for another great video.
Several years ago I was fortunate enough to buy a set of Pratt & Whitney Inspection grade Gauge blocks that came in what looks like a Bakelite box. I consider myself as the temporary keeper of them as I am certain they will find a good home once I am gone.
The first set of gauge blocks that I ever saw I was in a Bakelite case. I do not remember the brand
Thank you Lyle!
These short subject videos are great thanks.
Thanks
Very nice. Thank you.
Thanks for the video Lyle👍
Mr. Pete! Fantastic!
The name Johansson actually means Johan's son, and if it was a daughter, it would be Johansdotter. That last name probably isn't Swiss, as he may have been an immigrant. Johan is the same name in English as John. This last name practice isn't commonly used today as you'll find something like Jim Johansdotter in Europe, and maybe here in the States.
He was from Sweden, same as my grandfather. In fact I am Peter’s son
Excellent video Mr Pete! Great as usual!
wonderful Mr Pete......Paul
MrPete222: I seldom write comments on youtube videos, but I just wanted to tell you "Thank You" for everything you have taught me through your videos.
Thank you very much, I appreciate that
Thanks Mr. Pete!
Love your short series videos. I had 3 Uncles that worked at Wescloxs for their entire lives. one was a machinist and one was a too and diemaker. thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I met my dad knew your uncles
Thanks for the video.
Great commentary
Given that the utility of layout lines is largely dependent on the keenness of the operator's eyes, I cannot think of a reason to ever need that level of accuracy in layout work. Is their an alternate use that could take advantage of the increased accuracy such as inspection?
I think most people won't use this setup anymore, since scribing for precision manufacturing is outdated. I reckon that it have been used more back then, since accurate height gages and scribes were probably more expensive back then, it also comes to my mind that calibration wasn't very easy some time ago, so it probably made sense to have a tool which doesn't need to be calibrated, just inspected from time to time, nowadays height gages are rather cheap especially the import ones, now it's more of a relict of the old days, manufacturers probably still produce them since they rack up the part count in their gage block accessory assortment kits, and they can charge for them. It's the same with sharpening steels, they are actually obsolete, but old habits are hard to break and most butchers still swear on them, even if a cheap import 400 grit diamond plate works better and faster that a professional sharpening steel from a reputable manufacturer.
I also love height gauges Mr Pete. I have rather an unusual one. It is an old British make called the Ape Microball. It uses a column of ball bearings for the coarse adjustment. It is very accurate.
Great video as always!
Sounds interesting, I have never seen one. I used to have one called a micro height gauge. Very nice, but it took a long time to raise and lower it
Interesting Mr Pete. Thanks
I live about one hour away from Eskilstuna Sweden, lots of great tools on flea markets around here.
My grandfather Peterson came from Sweden, but he was a carpenter. It’s great that you have flea markets over there
Very nice Mr. Pete, thank you
Thanks Mr. Pete that was an interesting bite sized bit of information, I enjoyed it.
Thanks also for the "extra credit" without which I would never have earned a high school diploma.
Did not know why we call gauge blocks Jo blocks. Thank you for the history lesson.
Is there any relationship between Carl and the fabled Johansson drill presses?
Absolutely interesting.Thank you.
Right On! 👍 Great Video Mr. Peterson!! I love hearing the history and watching the demonstration! Thanks for all of your videos. I’ve been watching since nearly your start on TH-cam.
Thank you very much for your loyalty
I cherish the history lessons particularly.
Thank you for telling me that. You are the first one to ever say that. I was about to give up on my stupid little history lessons
@@mrpete222 Don't worry about public opinion. Keep the history alive.
CEJ actually stands for Carl Edward Johansson, hence the E in the logo.
I believe that he moved back to Sweden in 1936 at the respectable age of 72, and later passed away in 1943.
I also believe that Ford only bought the American part of the company, since they made tools here in Sweden much later (In Eskilstuna)
Today it's difficult even here in Sweden to research the company, but since 2002 it is incorporated into Hexagon meteorology Nordic AB.
PS I found your channel when I started restoring and modernizing my own Southbend 9 clone,
Best regards from Sweden !
Thank you for the comment, I would have thought he would be a national hero and Sweden, with lots of information about his life
@@mrpete222 My father new his story, but I think many don't, I actually got a CEJ micrometer that I bought used today, good condition 0-25mm manufactured in 1942.
Love the precision. When I was a toolmaker we had to grind anything under .003" tolerance. By the time I left the industry we were finishing bearing diameters by lathe turning a 20 micron tolerance on diameter on over 1,000 bearing shafts per day while maintaining .08Um PMR surface finish and 1.66 Cp/Cpk capability.
Thank you Mr Pete
That is a beautiful tool Lyle, we love it a pre-B&S thank you for sharing it, and for the history lesson read about them on Wikipedia a while back, love these stories all the time. Lance & Patrick.
Thanks for watching, where have you guys been?
@@mrpete222 Working and filming our product build slow we truly are but planned we surely are equally as well. We love seeing you in your videos and we enjoy the sit-down videos of late from you as well Lyle. Hello Mrs. Lyle, please. L&P
those tools are absolutely beautiful. I own a B&S Height gage (No 585) that was missing the scribber clamp. I found one on eBay for another gage; it was just a few thousandths too tight to fit. Well diligent file work solved that and now it works quite well
Спасибо. Очень интересно. Без этого невозможно было бы полететь на Луну❗👍
I've used these before but didn't know the history. Thanks Mr. Pete.
Art from Ohio
Always in for the extra credit Lyle. Keep up the good work! Joe.
Thanks
Great bit of well explained history Lyle. We views as hobbyist could only dream to have the collection you shared with us. thx for the History lesson and great shorty,,Bear.
Hope you are doing all right. I am enjoying the Powermatic videos
Great Video mr Pete and I have used a Height gage and scribe before and the couple small machine shops that I know of They still use them on a daily basis ! My father when he worked at one the Goverment Navy yards he took a class on how to use a height gage and gage blocks and scribe !
Great history lesson. I liked it
If you like tractors see if you can find Patrick keitley,s docu on the wee grey fergie it was on BBC TV in britain
I have several sets of gage blocks I've bought over the years both rectangular and square. Also have a accessory set for both types, too. My best find was a new complete 81 piece Webber rectangular set I picked up from a pawn shop locally for under $100. Never been used! Even had certifications of each block done by Webber and was a separate charge form the price of the gage blocks. I always thought that "Fonda" gage blocks was part of Ford and Johannesen. As always thanks for sharing. Ken
👍👍👍
Man, I wish I could find a deal like that 4GSR.... ;)
I remember the video of the auction where you bought this set up. I wondered when we’d see them again. Thanks for the lesson.
Very cool Mr. Pete. I've never seen a setup like that. Now I'll know what I'm looking at if I happen to come across one. Thanks for sharing.
Swedish (metric)Johansson started making inch blocks with a size of 25.4 mm since 1912. And both British and American Standards Association adopted his definition in 1930 and 1933.
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Eskilstuna Sweden is just over an hour south of me.
👍👍
Is a Cadillac gauge as accurate an alternative to setting your height gage as stacking Jo blocks? Can a home shop justify the cost of a Cadillac gauge? Are we already stepping into granite surface plate accuracy that is priced out of the home shop budget? Right now I am settling for a Mitutoyo electronic height gauge very few gauge blocks and a shop grade granite inspection plate of dubious origin. The tool and die maker used my inspection plate as his his personal plate and testified that it was accurate. I don't own any machinery that can machine any closer, so I am currently satisfied.
Very nice gage, nice setup. Thanks for for sharing the history.
Awesome tools Mr. Pete thanks for sharing
These should not be touched by fingers but cloth should be used. Respect, just saying
Great information Mr. Pete .
Another great video an informative as usual thank you.
When I started work in 1972 I used Moore and Wright Slip Gauges, aka Joey blocks, no one knew or could tell me why we called them Joey blocks, 50 years later I've found out, thanks Mr Pete, ATB from England
👍👍
I had several Wesclox pocket watches back in the day. I liked them.
Some of them were called pocket ben
Mr.Pete Thanks for your always informative videos!
You should make another video showing how those other Jo Block attachments are used, such as creating an ID checking gage for verifying inside diameters of parts, with the sets included special radii Jo blocks stacked on either end, in combination with regular Jo blocks to produce an exact correct size "Go gage" to be checked for inspection.
You can also set a Bore dial indicator with stack of Jo blocks for inspection or as an operator tool.
Also, you can scribe lower than 1 3/8 dimension by just using desired size Jo block(s) using just the scriber "wrung" on top of your Jo Block(s).
I do plan to make a video about the other attachments, if enough people watch this one. I do not think there is much interest in this. Which disappoints me
Nice set. I would love to have real Jo blocks.
Would it be called a type of half nut or screw release? AL B.
moderndaytinker here
A simple,fast, and accurate way of coming up with a "stack" ---
Put the wanted dimensions in your calculator -- start subtracting the largest whole dimension --
Working down the decimal points (left to right).
Try it. 😎👍
I don't know if I explained it correctly -- but once you do it, it will be apparent how to do it.
Any dimensions down to the "tenth" , even with missing blocks,can be quickly found 😎
(assuming an 81 piece set 😎)
Actually, you should start with the least significant digit (0.0001) and work to the left. For 7.8754", you start with 0.1004 which leaves 7.775. The next block will be 0.125 which leaves 7.65. The next block is 0.65 which leaves 7. If you don't have a 7 then you'll have to use a 4 and a 3.
@@txkflier that's right 👍
I haven't done it for years,
Brain is old and crickaty 😂
The history lesson is as interesting as the tool itself.
Thank you, I love industrial history. Far better than world history, or US history which is nothing but wars and disputes
Thanks for the great video
I have a slightly bigger CEJ accessory set (but not the big complete set) but of UK manufacture, all in perfect condition in protective grease. Nice to have.
More tools to buy 😊
By fastidious offset stacking you _could_ scribe lower than 1.375.
______________
_________\______________\______
| |______________|< Set the scriber to the bottom of this block
|_______________|
Great Video Mr Pete. I have one of these sets I always wondered what it was used for. Mine was from 1942 as well Set 44 Serial number 5980. I picked it up at an auction last year. Ive had it for sale for about a year now. Actually a guy just made me an offer on it today. Maybe he watched this video as well. Im thinking on keeping it now. I really enjoy these videos keep up the good work.
Thanks 👍👍👍
Lol You dont need a Book to set up a gage block dimension IF you know how to ADD !!
I have used both Do All Gages as well as Pratt and Whitney Laboratory Inspection Square blocks for Inspections as well as Critical Height Layouts .I Have square gage blocks up to 12 Inches in length .Gage blocks are made in carbide , as well as Ceramic Material as well . mr pete this old fellow like myself is correct , and Fun to watch HaHa .... he is old school , as I am
Enjoy !
You do realize, some people cannot add
Thanks for the share of knowledge Mr. Pete.
??? Can you look into this: a drop of water measures one centimeter in diameter on a surface plate?
I read this in a book not too long ago and it was supposed to have been originated in ancient Egypt as a repeatable unit of measure....probably at sea level and distilled water etc. but please see if it's even close to being accurate. Thanks!!!
That would be interesting
I liked this. Nice job. Many thanks.
Loved it!
I use a hight stand at the height of 55.81 millimeter placed on the tool post holder of the lathe to set tool heights. Really convenient.
no mention of the granite plate! Still love your short subject videos. I have been following you for years.
👍👍
Since the scriber or measuring tip is 'stuck out', the tower part has to be absoutely vertical, and that looks a bit questionable in that design (to my eye anyway). Same for all height guages of course and worse the longer the tip is.
Actually normally you would check with gauge blocks immediately under the tip to work round that
I used to be a ford guy. Then I bought a chevy and never looked back
Why look back, the Ford is always ahead of you...yuck yuck yuck...
Maybe on a chevy tow truck
I was a Ford guy too until they screwed me on warranty work. They will not get a second chance.
I love my Toyota's!!!😁😊
I have pretty much always driven Ford's with a couple of 1960's Buicks thrown in. I work part time for a Chevy dealership now so I'm driving a Chevy pickup now. Great video. I've done some shop classes at the local community college. I wish I'd of done it years ago.
I think it is mostly not important since I don't know any machinists that can visually align to a line any better than .001" anyway.
Thank you.
i have a large set of Weber gauge blocks in a beautiful original case. they say Weber Cleveland. i have a small set also same markings BUT mine are not complete, i need about 7 of them, have the whole other small set and nice box to swap, as well as some ICC thrown in to make almost complete set. Could you make a 1.375 drop pointer block? i never knew why my Brown and Sharpe gauge similar to yours will not go to zero, i think the scribe is wrong to the unit. ALSO. a million thanks i learn every time i click on your channel.
Actually I had thought about making a scriber as you were just as mentioned. But it would have to be made with the same precision as the blocks, and that is impossible
@@mrpete222 well i will someday make a zero {well close to} scribe for my B&S like yours, as its unuseable with the probably homemade one on it. mine is a good .500 off and its not flat on the bottom angle
In case anyone wonders, this is not the same Johansson as the adjustable spanner Johansson (that'd be Johan Petter Johansson)
Wow I'll bet my dad # machinist used those and probably my brother # welder used it from Tim to time!
Very helpful. Thanks!
Was Carl the guy that sent his Daughter around as a sells man to see his blocks?
I wonder if this is the same Johansson that built small knee milling machines? Johansson was bought out by Atlas/Clausing and became their models 8520 & 8530.
I don’t think so
I have a cheapie SARS height gauge. As mostly a woodworker I am happy if I get things to within 1/8 th which is sort of sad, but honest.
👍old school rules
Only you could manage to draw about 3,000 comments on a subject is simple as gauge blocks, Mr Pete!
You're an oldie.... But a goodie!
Thank you very much. But this subject is far far from simple
...like Artie Shaw, the little Nazi on the tricycle on the TV Show Laugh In used to say, "Very Interesting." Thanks for the video
I remember him. That would not be politically correct anymore
His name was Artie Johnson.
If it's accurate to the ten thousandth (0.0001) shouldn't it read 1.3750 to indicate that? Understand that your blocks are only good to the thousandth so that's the best you can get out of the gage using those blocks, but the height gage itself you said is accurate to the ten thousandth.
Does a 1" gage block have 1.0000" stamped on it? Your honor, I rest my case.. 😄