Aleena the Cleric, never forget. I curse the day I met Bargle! And it took me something like 10 years to realize that it happened in Karameikos of Mystara.
I really think that they were needing to produce so many products to keep up with demand that they gave the proverbial keys to the creatives and things got made that would never survive a “corporate brainstorm session”. These settings have so much depth that it really makes modern releases seem pale in comparison.
I think the reason why it was varied was because of the limits the game had in place. Iy made each setting feel diffrent in feel and mechanics. Like how preserving and defiling magic and canabalistic halflings was a Datk Sun thing. Now everything just feels way to homogenius.
I think a big reason these WOTC is memory-holing these settings (aside from fear of the twitter crowd), is that they all have what could best be described as “hard limits”; you can’t play a Drow in Mystara, or a half orc in Dark Sun. This goes against the 5E-era stance that “anything and everything is always legal”. Can’t not be a power fantasy, after all.
lol, that sounds reasonable. I would guess that they also painted themselves into a corner now by their own discussion about the history of the game and how playing in settings that cover taboo topics in any way, even if depicting them as evil, is unacceptable… so having taken that stance they can’t very well send us all to revisit. The Twitter mob won’t allow it! 😉
@@booksbricksandboards783 I can see why they do that, even if I don't agree. Most people would agree that something like child molestation would be way out of bounds in a dnd game, even if it was the villain doing it. It would be bad taste, it would evoke a real world trauma for some players, and fodder for r/rpghorrorstories. When it comes to slavery and racism or allegories for racism, for some people who have been affected by slavery and Jim Crow, either directly or because their great grandparents, this would, for them, be in bad taste for the same reason. This would be like bringing child molestation into a DnD game. DnD is not a serious enough vehicle for such a heavy topic and if child molestation is a heavy topic, than sure so would slavery and racism be heavy topics. I think that is being overly conservative and cautious but that is the company stance. I imagine they are trying to avode bad press. Even anecdotes and ragebait in r/RPGhorrorstories is not great for the company image.
@@terratorment2940 I think that there has to be a separation between fiction and reality… when you add in that the situations in Dark Sun are in no way related to the history of slavery in the United States, but rather more closely to how it was in Egypt during the time of the Pharaoh’s and during Babylonian times, I think it is not out of line for people to want to play games set in that type of a setting. Using the same logic, we also couldn’t have combat because soldiers and their families have been negatively impacted by the results of war… if the same logic was used across the board in their decision making, I could at least respect it even if I didn’t agree with it. To me, it appears much more that it is a means of pandering to a small portion of the Twitter crowd, most of whom aren’t even interested in the games that they take such offense at. Thanks for your thoughts Terra, you presented your case in a very fair and rational way. We disagree, but you did a great job communicating an opposing idea.
@@terratorment2940this argument is sad and limiting. Have you heard the story about the pair of holocaust survivors that really enjoy the Star Wars game because in their own words "it's like fighting space nazis". The best way to deal with your trauma is to address it.
For me the reason why Wizards is mostly ignoring or abandoning many classical settings is complex. It's both the specific themes of some of them, which would exclude some or many of their own products from that setting, and the sensitive kind of situations in others, which are a real problem only in the US, for the most part. DarkSun hits both right in the spot. But it's also the fact that many of those settings cannot actually be sustained by the current rules. They got rid of Planescape in the passage to 3rd edition because they completely changed the cosmology. That setting simply had no more place to fit in. DarkSun was basically a commercial spot for the psionic rules in 2nd edition, but those rules worked in a completely different way when compared to those that have come after that, so, for example, it is difficult to implement the "all are psionic wild talents" concept with other editions. And there is also the distinction between defiler mages and preserver mages, the only difference being the speed at which they leveled up, which is hard to express in systems in which the leveling speed is the same for everyone. The destiny of portions of the Forgotten Realms such as Zakhara or Maztica is the same as all the other parts that were brutalized to adapt that setting to 4th edition. Anything that could not sustain that system or be sustained by it had to go away. And it was basically everything. It must be said that there were some attempts to convert some features of lost settings such as Planescape or Al Qadìm for 3rd edition in the Dragon Magazine, but nothing more than that really came out. I would not mention the horrible conversion of DarkSun for 4th edition. For me that never existed.
This might be one of your best videos yet, with a clear structure and direct script. I bought a re-print of Dark Sun from DTRPG for background reading, and also bought ShadowSun to bring to my group. Thank you Justin!
Thanks Paul! I rearranged my limited schedule a little….typically I will come up with an idea for a video during the week and have a rough idea. Then I used to film and edit Friday night after the kids are in bed, which made for a long night and a tired delivery… I’ve started scripting on Friday night after kids are in bed, then filming and editing Saturday morning before they get up. Seems to give a little better version of myself on the videos. Appreciate that you noticed. Also, let me know what you think of Shadowsun… I was pretty pleasantly surprised!
The Dark Sun campaign setting is great. My first experience actually getting to play D&D was through the Dark Sun campaign setting during 4th Edition and I loved playing as a Thri-Kreen in this world!
I picked up the 4th edition books as a pre release at Gen Con that year. I wish I hadn’t sold them when I got rid of all of my 4th edition stuff. Those are the only books I miss. Also, I think my my second favorite Athenian race is the Thri Kreen, second only to Mul. Thanks for watching!
I am collecting 4th edition books as I didn't mind the system when I played it briefly around 2013/14 before 5th edition released. Planning to DM a 4th Dark Sun game sometime as a something different opportunity.
@@101BadBreath I ran a 1-20 4th edition campaign over 2-3 years, starting at launch and going to around 2011. Introduced some new folks to the game, one of whom became a designer in the industry. 4e’s greatest asset was approachability to new players.
@@booksbricksandboards783 I agree it's even better for new players than 5e, if a little heavy on the DM. I am a veteran of 2nd Edition in the 90's, returned on the back of 4th edition/ start 5th edition. While I understand some of the hate towards 4th edition, I really think most of it is underserved and any flaws can be mitigated by a good DM.
I love videos like this, man. I like to imagine all the people who are getting into these great resources for the first time. Folks, you are in for a treat. Justin has done a great job of getting to the crux of each of these settings. Good stuff!
Appreciate it! When I was a kid, Dark Sun was the setting I picked up before everyone else. We were kind of territorial about who owned which settings, and it spoke to me.😉
So much game goodness and available for adaptation to any system. What more could we want? 😂 A serious "thank you" for highlighting the existence of these worthy contenders for a ready-made setting. It's also a nice reminder of where we have been in our tabletop adventures. Cheers!
Thanks Fred! Yeah, it is amazing some of the stuff that got released in the post-Gygax TSR years. Some really innovative and unique stuff. If you look at the release years, all of these (except Mystara) were really created in about a 4 year time span. Even Mystara was really developed into a breathing setting in that time frame.
I retro fitted Al-Qadim into my 1st. ed campaign world---my players were thrilled to find out they were going to part of Sinbad's crew. Had a blast with that one. I bought Dark Sun when it was released,, but unfortunately I never got around to using it. But it's a great setting, reminds me of across between Gor and Barsoom, with a little bit of Tatooine thrown in.
That is awesome. Not really a lot of conversion to use 2e stuff with 1e rules either, so probably a pretty accurate conversion. Dark Sun is probably the single setting I would most like to get more time running.
The Mystara Gazetteers also had some of the best cover artwork for the era, taking into account the time period and level of cheesecake. For a more 'compiled' version, there was also the "Poor Wizard's Almanac" series near the end of the line.
I was hopeful when there were rumors about a possible sale of the D&D division to a company that would be interested in being stewards of the properties related, but when that turned out to be nothing but pure speculation... Let's just say I have settled into the idea that the best times of the brand are in the past. That said, it has given numerous competitors an opportunity to shine, and that is not a bad thing.
Excellent timing! I was just coming to terms with my investigator getting sacrificed "another brick in the wall 2" style by a Bokrug cult in Alone Against the Tide. The Casters on the Beach are exactly as you described them. While I understand why the operate as they do, in my opinion, they are a reflection of some of the worst of what our modern economic landscape looks like and how it acts (and its effects on people). I have yet to play a proper Dark Sun game. I read the novels but have yet to play it. I love the grittiness of it. Al Qadim makes me think of the first computer game that really pulled me into the adventuring genre: Quest for Glory 2. I remember finding it at a local radio shack. It was by Sierra and took a monstrous 11 3.5" discs. I miss it so! Al Qadin might be the answer I've been Kuwaiting for. I keep looking at the Pathfinder setting as well as at the silk road stuff that the guy who did Dark Albion did.
Al Qadim was one of the first settings that was truly pre planned. They knew the different releases that they were going to put out for it before the first book dropped. One of the creators on a podcast I listened to said that it is a truly complete campaign. They released everything they wanted to and avoided the urge to dilute it with subpar product (rare in the TSR days!). Dark Sun, if done right, can be a really great ride! If you get the chance to play, I’d highly recommend. Good to see you out of the Tube Jail! Thanks for watching buddy!
My group really loved Dark Sun in the 90s. In a different group, I also played it in 3e. I never got a group to play Masque of the Red Death nor Hollow World. I ran some Al-Qadim, and sometimes it got imported into other campaigns a bit. While I had Mystara, I only played it for the earlier D&D Known World setting and its Gazeteers. Those were cool, especially the Wizards of Glantri.
They did an “expanded and revised” edition of Dark Sun that wasn’t as lethal, depending on where you decide to journey. I had to buy it when it came out just cuz I loved the original world setting so much. It also fixed a lot of the psionics stuff.
Yep. I have it as well. It also has a really nice fabric map. I think it got a bad rap in some ways, a lot of people say it was terrible… it added some races and the psionics system from the Skills & Powers book and expanded the map. I think the biggest issue it had, was that it took place AFTER the Prism Pentad, and general consensus was the world was more interesting before they solved all of the largest problems.
@@jasonnewell7036 so the big question then becomes, do you keep it 1,000 AC (BECMI) timeline, or advance to the later post Wrath of Immortals timeline. (After the fall of Alphatia and Thyatis losing its mojo, Karameikos becomes a full on kingdom) Just curious which appeals to you and your table.
Seems like you are in the strong majority there. I was just curious as you mentioned Karameikos specifically, I just wondered if it’s increased in prominence was appealing to a fan of the Grand Duchy. Thanks for sharing!
You hit all my favorite campaign settings. 2E was my favorite edition, just for the amount of material that was produced. I think Masque of the Red Death would be a good fit for PBtA game, like Monster of the Week or even Mythos World.
When it came to Mystara and modules, I'm surprised you didn't mention the GOAT. B10: Night's Dark Terror. It's material on Karameikos, plus what was in the Cook Expert set pretty much defined what went into GAZ1.
I grew up with the Mystara setting, before it was called Mystara. My favorite series of books probably was the Creature Crucibles: setting books that allowed you to play a wide variety of non-human characters.
I had a similar conversation with another viewer. I didn’t get a chance to play Birthright as it was a setting that a friend had bought into, but never ran. Also, there are so many releases for the setting, it is a deep rabbit hole to approach at this point. Lastly, I do think that there is at least an outside chance Wizards could revisit this setting because it doesn’t have any of the traits that cause WoTC to write it off completely, as the others on my list do.
Birthright has become my favorite setting. I didn't get it back when it was new (I chose Ravenloft) but I've been picking it up as I can. I'm getting pretty close to having a complete collection.
I actually started with Al-Qadim. I bought the Arabian Adventures book instead of a player’s handbook because I was 12 and thought it looked cooler. Great video and advice!
Admittedly, i had no idea that characters typically started at 3rd level. Aside from that, I've been looking back through the 2nd edition core stuff and the Council of Wyrms. I've actually been trying to understand the system itself before making an attempt to convert the content to other systems.
If you understand any of the other TSR era D&D you have a good idea of how 2e works. Council Of Wyrms is a cool concept. Would love to see that worked out for a different system.
I remember being a kid, and my brother had a tooooon of the old AD&D cards. I remember Dark Sun and Ravenloft were my absolute favorites. Its a shame they wont ever be a thing again.
Ravenloft is still a possibility, with the popularity of Curse of Strand, but even that received harsh criticism for using the source material. I would guess if they do revisit it, they will change enough that it will in very little ways resemble the setting I enjoy. The AD&D cards were awesome. Also, yes the Brom art on those Dark Sun characters is close to perfection!
I think that is one of my issues, it all feels vanilla. Every campaign has Dragonborn, every campaign has essentially the same vibe with a little window dressing. Just my opinion.
I could actually see them revisiting Mystara/Known World with the new Totally Not A New Edition. I hope they don't, though. They need to make new settings and not abandon them immediately (Nentir Vale, anyone?)
Al'Qadim kind of has been done...mainly because near the end of 2e (right before WotC acquired D&D, a lot of the "ethnic" settings were merged into part of the Forgotten Realms. Al'Qadim, Maztica, Kara-Tur, and a few others became parts of the same world. One of the campaign settings that WotC can't revisit in 5e is Ghostwalk. That was one of the few worlds that popped up as a strange twist on things with 3.5 that WotC did themselves. Mahasarpa was also pretty interesting, but it could be done rather easily with reskinning things and setting the right tone...but still not something that modern WotC would do, just as they won't do Kara-Tur other than mentioning it here and there
Al Qadim was actually designed from the ground up as a part of the realms and was released in 1992. Kara Tur boxed set was also designed to be part of the Forgotten Realms, though the previous Oriental Adventures book was going to have its home in Greyhawk, prior to Gygax’s ouster. Maztica and the Horde were the other two bigger settings that are in the Forgotten Realms. Ghostwalk was interesting, in that it could be pretty easily nestled into existing campaigns and serve as a link between the living and the dead. I believe that Ghostwalk may have been one of Monte Cook’s big projects if I remember correctly. There have been offhand mentions of parts of Kara Tur in 5e products, such as Shou Towns being part of major cities, and I think a passing mention of Zakhara as well, but they’ll never put them front and center again for the reasons you mentioned. Thanks for watching!
I think it is a huge mistake that they haven’t chosen one setting to focus on. Paizo makes some absolutely incredible setting books for their Golarion setting. Mwangi Expanse and Tian Xia world books are masterclass world books
They have largely set most of their stuff in Forgotten Realms, to me it is the fact that they no longer do setting books at all, they do a module/setting/player option combo book each time.
No, WotC shouldn't revisit anything, even just D&D, until Hasbro licenses the IP to someone who is competent, which the last few years has proven is not anyone currently employed there.
At this point, it’s hard to argue against that. It’s ironic too, because 5e was borne out of their own acknowledgment that they lost their audience (with 4E). So they sought community input and started from a point of trying to thread the needle between the old guard and the new… then a few years into that, very successful years financially, they forgot their audience again and are falling prey to the same cycle. It’s like watching a company car wreck, see it coming but just can’t look away.
Another great video... humm hummm XD Question of the day: What make you think the id***ts at WOTC wouldn't revist them : C*** A*** ? Ok I will say that ; Wotc tries (hard) to catter to a camp that is pretty picky. That camp jumps on them simply because they added bard monkeys. So yeah. Ok they use pliers when dealing with some people and rocket launchers with us the old guard (and I won't mention here when it comes to Gygax and Arneson they use the aircraft carrier with them). so. Dark sun : Probably my favorite D&D settings. And I make no mystery when it is dark and grimy... Yeah, I love it XD Hollow world : the mesoamerican vibe... The kind of setting which would be easier for me nowadays than it was in the mid 90s. In Europe, where I live, it was hard to find a lot of books on Mesoamerica, except some general books talking about the fact invading people, treating them like smallpoxed dudes, and ousting them from their places is bad (remind me of something but... i don't see). In 2024 where I have read every pieces of works that survives the Inquistors of Stupidity and Hatred of the Past, that setting would be my number 2. --- Btw, good work on the Krugels XD Al quadim : For me I would replace by Oriental Adventures (not sure if it was in 2E, that said -- the fact it is co-written by a French dude Francois Marcela-froideval has nothing to do with my taste for it XD). But the idea is roughly the same. "Exotic adventures" for people in the 80/90s with no internet, no travels in planes. Al Quadim would render MARVELS in Savage World! So I enjoy the video and that makes me wonder if I couldn' tacle somes plays of Dark sun and Hollow World in good old Worlds Without Numbers
Pralinor, welcome back! Regarding Kara Tur (the setting for the Oriental Adventures book), both Kara Tur and Oriental Adventures were written towards the end of 1st edition. I have it on my shelf, so I do like it quite a bit. The boxed set itself is a little bit dry and focused more upon politics than flavor as compared to some of the other settings. The OA hardcover adds a lot of the flavor, but as a “setting” I felt like Kara Tur fell a tad bit behind the others… but again, it will not see a visit from WOTC. The Horde and Maztica fall in a similar spot for me (I have both of them as well). I think we have VERY similar taste in games! Thanks for watching!
@@booksbricksandboards783 hummm I am far more a sci-fi guy XD Shadowrun > D&D XD Starfinder > Pathfinder XD That said I wanna test Dragonbane and I think toying with Dark Sun will be nice.
Kind of a catch 22. The HasBros of the Coast have a magical ability to gut and then appropriate classic material, while killing any aspects that made it feel authentic… but, at the same time, every time they expose their decidedly huge audience to an existing IP it does have the side effect of creating curious minds to explore the older versions. I have noticed more interest in Spelljammer, Dragonlance and Planescape content since the 5e releases, and I believe the 5e community largely panned all of the new stuff therein. If they wanted to filter folks down to other IP’s I’d be good with that.
I think that the early D&D editions did a great job of encouraging this… new, not so much. They are courting a different type of player. They are trying to get people that are used to video games, just show up and hit play. Worlds Without Number is GREAT at giving tools to build it yourself.
Sort of, instead of an individual region, I included all of Mystara. Red Steel is of course the Savage Coast of Mystara. I have the released Red Steel stuff, and I do enjoy it.
@@booksbricksandboards783 Seems like no one ever does Red Steel. I get it, it's niche. But I did do a Dark Sun+Red Steel combo. I had past Hafling Ridge Jungles, far past. An actual Savage Coast setup. That basically the mythos there they killed all who entered, cuz they wanted to keep that area of world as secret as possible. Had a whole Red Mist that covered it's borders, etc.. :p
Good idea, and crazy combo. I did a 4E Forgotten Realms campaign, level 1-20, over a few years, where they failed to stop Sazz Tamm from taking over the world, and the following campaign we played Dark Sun… I laid the hints that it was the far future of the Realms campaign and a result of their failure.
I visited Detroit for the first time just a few weeks ago, and bought that hat at Comerica Park. Detroit really has gotten an unfair amount of criticism. Great town, wonderful people, and apparently some gamers with good taste in TH-cam channels! Thanks for watching!
They have not even bothered to make a proper Realms setting book for 5e. Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms is still the best one by far but it's getting long in the tooth and hard to get hold off. Also the print on demand version is kinda iffy in the quality department.
Their business model seems to be, make books that have a little player info, a little GM info, a little background for a region, and an adventure… which ends up shortchanging each one.
@@booksbricksandboards783 Indeed but their corpo reasoning for doing so is simple and easy to follow. -If we shove the GM stuff in the player books and vice versa the books are relevant to everyone, ergo everyone buy's the overpriced book! It's all about that mythical wider audience and good old fashioned greed. Not one shred of thought went into playabilaty of the actual game or the logistics of carrying the equivalent of the library of Alexandria to game night but that explains why they went all out on digital.
Agreed, I think that the digital switch is also easier to take advantage of AI. AI DM’s, art & authors. Chris Cox hinted at using AI to mine their catalog. I think it will help small publishers the way 4E did.
@@booksbricksandboards783 Just like the OGL debacle did. It was like Christmas for all other RPG publishers the sheer influx of players and sales was insane. Tho i abandoned the sinking 5e ship around the "revamped" curse of strahd set. Now i mostly play C&C and Dragonbane.
lol. You know, they are the focus of the story, and rightfully so, but that doesn’t mean they have to be untouachable, or unrestrained. Putting some “walls” around them, in this case with water needs, makes them consider just how many enemies they want to make at one time in their small slice of the world. It in turn allows we GM’s to be able to focus on a smaller area and more restricted cast of characters.
I knew that topic would come up… to be completely honest, I have never dove into it… the guy in our group that had Birthright never ran it for us, and there was so much released I never took the plunge… I know roughly the parameters of the setting, but the only major AD&D 2e setting I haven’t played in or ran.
@@booksbricksandboards783 yeah it seems like that's the case with a lot of people. Everyone had it or knew someone who did and they were going to play it but never got around to it. I was lucky a dude I know had it, read and we played it. It was awesome. I've run it for 5e too and it is great. It gives you just enough detail to flesh out a campaign but not so much lore you have no freedom.
I have had it in my online cart several times. Just haven’t actually made the purchase. I also think that there is a very small chance that Birthright could see a release in the future. It doesn’t have some of the characteristics that would guarantee the other settings on my list won’t get a visit. I’d still like to try it.
I don’t really consider it as the setting, that would be Kara Tur. Kara Tur is not that exciting compared to some of the other offerings. The mechanics in OA were very fun as a kid, but I look at them like Unearthed Arcana, they’ve been done better since. They redid all of the kits from OA and the martial arts system, between PHBR series and Dragon Magazine, and I prefer the 2e versions .
Aleena the Cleric, never forget. I curse the day I met Bargle! And it took me something like 10 years to realize that it happened in Karameikos of Mystara.
Indeed, the fair haired beauty, taken far too young by the dastardly Bargle!
I so feel you on Aleena the Cleric and the despicable Bargle.
Apart from Ravenloft, these were our worlds when we were kids. Something about this era - so detailed, rich and varied.
I really think that they were needing to produce so many products to keep up with demand that they gave the proverbial keys to the creatives and things got made that would never survive a “corporate brainstorm session”. These settings have so much depth that it really makes modern releases seem pale in comparison.
I think the reason why it was varied was because of the limits the game had in place. Iy made each setting feel diffrent in feel and mechanics. Like how preserving and defiling magic and canabalistic halflings was a Datk Sun thing. Now everything just feels way to homogenius.
@@Fetch357 this is 100% part of their objective now… players have to be able to play every option in every setting, so nothing is special.
I think a big reason these WOTC is memory-holing these settings (aside from fear of the twitter crowd), is that they all have what could best be described as “hard limits”; you can’t play a Drow in Mystara, or a half orc in Dark Sun. This goes against the 5E-era stance that “anything and everything is always legal”. Can’t not be a power fantasy, after all.
lol, that sounds reasonable. I would guess that they also painted themselves into a corner now by their own discussion about the history of the game and how playing in settings that cover taboo topics in any way, even if depicting them as evil, is unacceptable… so having taken that stance they can’t very well send us all to revisit. The Twitter mob won’t allow it! 😉
@@booksbricksandboards783 I can see why they do that, even if I don't agree. Most people would agree that something like child molestation would be way out of bounds in a dnd game, even if it was the villain doing it. It would be bad taste, it would evoke a real world trauma for some players, and fodder for r/rpghorrorstories. When it comes to slavery and racism or allegories for racism, for some people who have been affected by slavery and Jim Crow, either directly or because their great grandparents, this would, for them, be in bad taste for the same reason. This would be like bringing child molestation into a DnD game. DnD is not a serious enough vehicle for such a heavy topic and if child molestation is a heavy topic, than sure so would slavery and racism be heavy topics.
I think that is being overly conservative and cautious but that is the company stance. I imagine they are trying to avode bad press. Even anecdotes and ragebait in r/RPGhorrorstories is not great for the company image.
@@terratorment2940 I think that there has to be a separation between fiction and reality… when you add in that the situations in Dark Sun are in no way related to the history of slavery in the United States, but rather more closely to how it was in Egypt during the time of the Pharaoh’s and during Babylonian times, I think it is not out of line for people to want to play games set in that type of a setting. Using the same logic, we also couldn’t have combat because soldiers and their families have been negatively impacted by the results of war… if the same logic was used across the board in their decision making, I could at least respect it even if I didn’t agree with it. To me, it appears much more that it is a means of pandering to a small portion of the Twitter crowd, most of whom aren’t even interested in the games that they take such offense at. Thanks for your thoughts Terra, you presented your case in a very fair and rational way. We disagree, but you did a great job communicating an opposing idea.
@@terratorment2940this argument is sad and limiting. Have you heard the story about the pair of holocaust survivors that really enjoy the Star Wars game because in their own words "it's like fighting space nazis". The best way to deal with your trauma is to address it.
For me the reason why Wizards is mostly ignoring or abandoning many classical settings is complex. It's both the specific themes of some of them, which would exclude some or many of their own products from that setting, and the sensitive kind of situations in others, which are a real problem only in the US, for the most part. DarkSun hits both right in the spot.
But it's also the fact that many of those settings cannot actually be sustained by the current rules.
They got rid of Planescape in the passage to 3rd edition because they completely changed the cosmology. That setting simply had no more place to fit in. DarkSun was basically a commercial spot for the psionic rules in 2nd edition, but those rules worked in a completely different way when compared to those that have come after that, so, for example, it is difficult to implement the "all are psionic wild talents" concept with other editions. And there is also the distinction between defiler mages and preserver mages, the only difference being the speed at which they leveled up, which is hard to express in systems in which the leveling speed is the same for everyone.
The destiny of portions of the Forgotten Realms such as Zakhara or Maztica is the same as all the other parts that were brutalized to adapt that setting to 4th edition. Anything that could not sustain that system or be sustained by it had to go away. And it was basically everything.
It must be said that there were some attempts to convert some features of lost settings such as Planescape or Al Qadìm for 3rd edition in the Dragon Magazine, but nothing more than that really came out. I would not mention the horrible conversion of DarkSun for 4th edition. For me that never existed.
Becmi Berserker is another good source for breakdowns of the Mystara gazetteers
Yes sir! I have been working my way through his catalog.
@@booksbricksandboards783 I like how unbiased he is and how he isn't afraid to call them when they're being stupid.
This might be one of your best videos yet, with a clear structure and direct script. I bought a re-print of Dark Sun from DTRPG for background reading, and also bought ShadowSun to bring to my group. Thank you Justin!
Thanks Paul! I rearranged my limited schedule a little….typically I will come up with an idea for a video during the week and have a rough idea. Then I used to film and edit Friday night after the kids are in bed, which made for a long night and a tired delivery… I’ve started scripting on Friday night after kids are in bed, then filming and editing Saturday morning before they get up. Seems to give a little better version of myself on the videos. Appreciate that you noticed. Also, let me know what you think of Shadowsun… I was pretty pleasantly surprised!
The Dark Sun campaign setting is great. My first experience actually getting to play D&D was through the Dark Sun campaign setting during 4th Edition and I loved playing as a Thri-Kreen in this world!
I picked up the 4th edition books as a pre release at Gen Con that year. I wish I hadn’t sold them when I got rid of all of my 4th edition stuff. Those are the only books I miss. Also, I think my my second favorite Athenian race is the Thri Kreen, second only to Mul. Thanks for watching!
@@booksbricksandboards783I still have my 4e Dark Sun books.
I am collecting 4th edition books as I didn't mind the system when I played it briefly around 2013/14 before 5th edition released. Planning to DM a 4th Dark Sun game sometime as a something different opportunity.
@@101BadBreath I ran a 1-20 4th edition campaign over 2-3 years, starting at launch and going to around 2011. Introduced some new folks to the game, one of whom became a designer in the industry. 4e’s greatest asset was approachability to new players.
@@booksbricksandboards783 I agree it's even better for new players than 5e, if a little heavy on the DM. I am a veteran of 2nd Edition in the 90's, returned on the back of 4th edition/ start 5th edition. While I understand some of the hate towards 4th edition, I really think most of it is underserved and any flaws can be mitigated by a good DM.
I love videos like this, man. I like to imagine all the people who are getting into these great resources for the first time. Folks, you are in for a treat. Justin has done a great job of getting to the crux of each of these settings. Good stuff!
Mr. Being, greatly appreciated sir! Glad you are enjoying the videos and happy I am doing it a little justice.
Every group I have played in has loved dark sun. Great video, thanks for sharing.
Appreciate it! When I was a kid, Dark Sun was the setting I picked up before everyone else. We were kind of territorial about who owned which settings, and it spoke to me.😉
So much game goodness and available for adaptation to any system. What more could we want? 😂
A serious "thank you" for highlighting the existence of these worthy contenders for a ready-made setting.
It's also a nice reminder of where we have been in our tabletop adventures.
Cheers!
Thanks Fred! Yeah, it is amazing some of the stuff that got released in the post-Gygax TSR years. Some really innovative and unique stuff. If you look at the release years, all of these (except Mystara) were really created in about a 4 year time span. Even Mystara was really developed into a breathing setting in that time frame.
I retro fitted Al-Qadim into my 1st. ed campaign world---my players were thrilled to find out they were going to part of Sinbad's crew. Had a blast with that one. I bought Dark Sun when it was released,, but unfortunately I never got around to using it. But it's a great setting, reminds me of across between Gor and Barsoom, with a little bit of Tatooine thrown in.
That is awesome. Not really a lot of conversion to use 2e stuff with 1e rules either, so probably a pretty accurate conversion. Dark Sun is probably the single setting I would most like to get more time running.
The Mystara Gazetteers also had some of the best cover artwork for the era, taking into account the time period and level of cheesecake. For a more 'compiled' version, there was also the "Poor Wizard's Almanac" series near the end of the line.
The Wizard’s Almanac’s are actually still RELATIVELY affordable right now too. There is a lot of Clyde Caldwell running around the old BECMI books…
I liked these settings, but right now WotC is under Hasbro and Hasbro has to be risk averse. I'm glad they're leaving those alone. Maybe someday.
I was hopeful when there were rumors about a possible sale of the D&D division to a company that would be interested in being stewards of the properties related, but when that turned out to be nothing but pure speculation... Let's just say I have settled into the idea that the best times of the brand are in the past. That said, it has given numerous competitors an opportunity to shine, and that is not a bad thing.
I’ve adapted Dark Sun for 5e by myself, created a website to host the material for free and created a channel to present the Dark Sun Lore.
What’s the channel? I have probably watched your stuff!
@@booksbricksandboards783 the channel is @solcarmesim. It means “Crimson Sun” in portuguese. I have all material on geocities.
Excellent timing! I was just coming to terms with my investigator getting sacrificed "another brick in the wall 2" style by a Bokrug cult in Alone Against the Tide.
The Casters on the Beach are exactly as you described them. While I understand why the operate as they do, in my opinion, they are a reflection of some of the worst of what our modern economic landscape looks like and how it acts (and its effects on people). I have yet to play a proper Dark Sun game. I read the novels but have yet to play it. I love the grittiness of it.
Al Qadim makes me think of the first computer game that really pulled me into the adventuring genre: Quest for Glory 2. I remember finding it at a local radio shack. It was by Sierra and took a monstrous 11 3.5" discs. I miss it so! Al Qadin might be the answer I've been Kuwaiting for. I keep looking at the Pathfinder setting as well as at the silk road stuff that the guy who did Dark Albion did.
Al Qadim was one of the first settings that was truly pre planned. They knew the different releases that they were going to put out for it before the first book dropped. One of the creators on a podcast I listened to said that it is a truly complete campaign. They released everything they wanted to and avoided the urge to dilute it with subpar product (rare in the TSR days!).
Dark Sun, if done right, can be a really great ride! If you get the chance to play, I’d highly recommend. Good to see you out of the Tube Jail! Thanks for watching buddy!
My group really loved Dark Sun in the 90s. In a different group, I also played it in 3e. I never got a group to play Masque of the Red Death nor Hollow World. I ran some Al-Qadim, and sometimes it got imported into other campaigns a bit. While I had Mystara, I only played it for the earlier D&D Known World setting and its Gazeteers. Those were cool, especially the Wizards of Glantri.
Sounds like you got a lot of good experience from those boxed sets!
They did an “expanded and revised” edition of Dark Sun that wasn’t as lethal, depending on where you decide to journey. I had to buy it when it came out just cuz I loved the original world setting so much. It also fixed a lot of the psionics stuff.
Yep. I have it as well. It also has a really nice fabric map. I think it got a bad rap in some ways, a lot of people say it was terrible… it added some races and the psionics system from the Skills & Powers book and expanded the map. I think the biggest issue it had, was that it took place AFTER the Prism Pentad, and general consensus was the world was more interesting before they solved all of the largest problems.
Mystara was my first D&D setting, and it is my current one as well. I'm finally running Idsle of Dread and we are having a blast.
You chose wisely… Mystara is a great place to run a game!
@@booksbricksandboards783 no matter where I wander, I always end up back in Karameikos.
@@jasonnewell7036 so the big question then becomes, do you keep it 1,000 AC (BECMI) timeline, or advance to the later post Wrath of Immortals timeline. (After the fall of Alphatia and Thyatis losing its mojo, Karameikos becomes a full on kingdom)
Just curious which appeals to you and your table.
@@booksbricksandboards783 becmi timeline. That's the one I am most familiar with. I also don't like the directions the later stuff took.
Seems like you are in the strong majority there. I was just curious as you mentioned Karameikos specifically, I just wondered if it’s increased in prominence was appealing to a fan of the Grand Duchy. Thanks for sharing!
You hit all my favorite campaign settings. 2E was my favorite edition, just for the amount of material that was produced.
I think Masque of the Red Death would be a good fit for PBtA game, like Monster of the Week or even Mythos World.
I could see it working there, or even with Ironsworn with a little work.
Regarding Mystara, yes bought a print on demand of the Karameikos book along with other supplements!
EDIT: I miss the audio cds from back then!
Awesome! There is a lot of room for play in that setting!
When it came to Mystara and modules, I'm surprised you didn't mention the GOAT. B10: Night's Dark Terror. It's material on Karameikos, plus what was in the Cook Expert set pretty much defined what went into GAZ1.
I think I stopped at B9 when I was playing. Don’t remember that adventure
I grew up with the Mystara setting, before it was called Mystara. My favorite series of books probably was the Creature Crucibles: setting books that allowed you to play a wide variety of non-human characters.
Have the full set on my shelf and was planning a video on them in the next couple of weeks!
Well presented, thank you. Please keep making videos !!!
Thanks Patrice. If you all keep watching them, I’ll keep making them😉
There's a setting for Savage Worlds called Rippers that also does what Masque of the Red Death
I need to check that out… love me some Savage Worlds!
I had hoped to see Birthright on that list.
I had a similar conversation with another viewer. I didn’t get a chance to play Birthright as it was a setting that a friend had bought into, but never ran. Also, there are so many releases for the setting, it is a deep rabbit hole to approach at this point. Lastly, I do think that there is at least an outside chance Wizards could revisit this setting because it doesn’t have any of the traits that cause WoTC to write it off completely, as the others on my list do.
Birthright has become my favorite setting. I didn't get it back when it was new (I chose Ravenloft) but I've been picking it up as I can. I'm getting pretty close to having a complete collection.
@@z2ei you have some investment there. Good choice!
I actually started with Al-Qadim. I bought the Arabian Adventures book instead of a player’s handbook because I was 12 and thought it looked cooler. Great video and advice!
Great setting to start out in though! Once you have a PHB at least😉
Not long from starting a 2nd edition campaign in Mystara. I will soon have all the gazetteers thanks to POD at DMs Guild.
Nice! POD has been a boon to old school gamers.
Admittedly, i had no idea that characters typically started at 3rd level.
Aside from that, I've been looking back through the 2nd edition core stuff and the Council of Wyrms. I've actually been trying to understand the system itself before making an attempt to convert the content to other systems.
If you understand any of the other TSR era D&D you have a good idea of how 2e works. Council
Of Wyrms is a cool concept. Would love to see that worked out for a different system.
I remember being a kid, and my brother had a tooooon of the old AD&D cards. I remember Dark Sun and Ravenloft were my absolute favorites. Its a shame they wont ever be a thing again.
Ravenloft is still a possibility, with the popularity of Curse of Strand, but even that received harsh criticism for using the source material. I would guess if they do revisit it, they will change enough that it will in very little ways resemble the setting I enjoy.
The AD&D cards were awesome. Also, yes the Brom art on those Dark Sun characters is close to perfection!
4 of those 5 continue to exist in the base game via spells and mechanics designed specifically for those campaigns that are "vanilla" now.
I think that is one of my issues, it all feels vanilla. Every campaign has Dragonborn, every campaign has essentially the same vibe with a little window dressing. Just my opinion.
I could actually see them revisiting Mystara/Known World with the new Totally Not A New Edition. I hope they don't, though. They need to make new settings and not abandon them immediately (Nentir Vale, anyone?)
My guess is that the number of real world cultures that are used as the basis for the regions of Mystara will scare them away of doing anything there.
Was thinking of a Ravenloft based campaign and now going to make it more a Gothic earth one now
Definitely a cool option.
Al'Qadim kind of has been done...mainly because near the end of 2e (right before WotC acquired D&D, a lot of the "ethnic" settings were merged into part of the Forgotten Realms. Al'Qadim, Maztica, Kara-Tur, and a few others became parts of the same world.
One of the campaign settings that WotC can't revisit in 5e is Ghostwalk. That was one of the few worlds that popped up as a strange twist on things with 3.5 that WotC did themselves. Mahasarpa was also pretty interesting, but it could be done rather easily with reskinning things and setting the right tone...but still not something that modern WotC would do, just as they won't do Kara-Tur other than mentioning it here and there
Al Qadim was actually designed from the ground up as a part of the realms and was released in 1992. Kara Tur boxed set was also designed to be part of the Forgotten Realms, though the previous Oriental Adventures book was going to have its home in Greyhawk, prior to Gygax’s ouster. Maztica and the Horde were the other two bigger settings that are in the Forgotten Realms.
Ghostwalk was interesting, in that it could be pretty easily nestled into existing campaigns and serve as a link between the living and the dead. I believe that Ghostwalk may have been one of Monte Cook’s big projects if I remember correctly.
There have been offhand mentions of parts of Kara Tur in 5e products, such as Shou Towns being part of major cities, and I think a passing mention of Zakhara as well, but they’ll never put them front and center again for the reasons you mentioned. Thanks for watching!
I think it is a huge mistake that they haven’t chosen one setting to focus on. Paizo makes some absolutely incredible setting books for their Golarion setting. Mwangi Expanse and Tian Xia world books are masterclass world books
They have largely set most of their stuff in Forgotten Realms, to me it is the fact that they no longer do setting books at all, they do a module/setting/player option combo book each time.
You've made your own Dark Sun Savage Worlds adaptation too? I love looking at those. Where can I find it?
Yes sir! I have been emailing it to folks but come this weekend, you will be able to download it (and other docs) from my Discord server.
It's a shame WOTC doesn't test the waters for future releases by licensing their unused settings to third-parties for books, video games, etc.
I am at least happy they provide affordable PDF’s from DriveThruRPG., but not a great option for Everyone I understand.
I just threw out most of the Greyhawk literature, but I still have several of the one-pager adventures for improv sessions.
Greyhawk was amazing for what it was, being without an example of how to do it… I do think WOTC may revisit it at sometime.
@@booksbricksandboards783 They are going to revisit it. There were videos commenting that about a month ago.
@@bjornh4664 there you go. Thanks for sharing.
No, WotC shouldn't revisit anything, even just D&D, until Hasbro licenses the IP to someone who is competent, which the last few years has proven is not anyone currently employed there.
At this point, it’s hard to argue against that. It’s ironic too, because 5e was borne out of their own acknowledgment that they lost their audience (with 4E). So they sought community input and started from a point of trying to thread the needle between the old guard and the new… then a few years into that, very successful years financially, they forgot their audience again and are falling prey to the same cycle. It’s like watching a company car wreck, see it coming but just can’t look away.
I think Darksun can be easily converted to Pathfinder 2e system since it’s has a better exploration system than DnD5e and it has psionic classes.
Very possible. I will say I’d convert to a more streamlined system, but PF2 could handle it.
Another great video... humm hummm XD
Question of the day: What make you think the id***ts at WOTC wouldn't revist them : C*** A*** ?
Ok I will say that ; Wotc tries (hard) to catter to a camp that is pretty picky. That camp jumps on them simply because they added bard monkeys. So yeah. Ok they use pliers when dealing with some people and rocket launchers with us the old guard (and I won't mention here when it comes to Gygax and Arneson they use the aircraft carrier with them).
so.
Dark sun : Probably my favorite D&D settings. And I make no mystery when it is dark and grimy... Yeah, I love it XD
Hollow world : the mesoamerican vibe... The kind of setting which would be easier for me nowadays than it was in the mid 90s. In Europe, where I live, it was hard to find a lot of books on Mesoamerica, except some general books talking about the fact invading people, treating them like smallpoxed dudes, and ousting them from their places is bad (remind me of something but... i don't see). In 2024 where I have read every pieces of works that survives the Inquistors of Stupidity and Hatred of the Past, that setting would be my number 2. --- Btw, good work on the Krugels XD
Al quadim : For me I would replace by Oriental Adventures (not sure if it was in 2E, that said -- the fact it is co-written by a French dude Francois Marcela-froideval has nothing to do with my taste for it XD). But the idea is roughly the same. "Exotic adventures" for people in the 80/90s with no internet, no travels in planes. Al Quadim would render MARVELS in Savage World!
So I enjoy the video and that makes me wonder if I couldn' tacle somes plays of Dark sun and Hollow World in good old Worlds Without Numbers
Pralinor, welcome back! Regarding Kara Tur (the setting for the Oriental Adventures book), both Kara Tur and Oriental Adventures were written towards the end of 1st edition. I have it on my shelf, so I do like it quite a bit. The boxed set itself is a little bit dry and focused more upon politics than flavor as compared to some of the other settings. The OA hardcover adds a lot of the flavor, but as a “setting” I felt like Kara Tur fell a tad bit behind the others… but again, it will not see a visit from WOTC. The Horde and Maztica fall in a similar spot for me (I have both of them as well). I think we have VERY similar taste in games! Thanks for watching!
@@booksbricksandboards783 hummm I am far more a sci-fi guy XD
Shadowrun > D&D XD
Starfinder > Pathfinder XD
That said I wanna test Dragonbane and I think toying with Dark Sun will be nice.
I don't want WotC to revisit the old settings. They have ruined everything they touch. On the other hand, it may bring new players to these settings.
Kind of a catch 22. The HasBros of the Coast have a magical ability to gut and then appropriate classic material, while killing any aspects that made it feel authentic… but, at the same time, every time they expose their decidedly huge audience to an existing IP it does have the side effect of creating curious minds to explore the older versions. I have noticed more interest in Spelljammer, Dragonlance and Planescape content since the 5e releases, and I believe the 5e community largely panned all of the new stuff therein. If they wanted to filter folks down to other IP’s I’d be good with that.
I have the POD version of Dark Sun. Its great
Agreed!
They should push harder for people to homebrew their own settings!
I think that the early D&D editions did a great job of encouraging this… new, not so much. They are courting a different type of player. They are trying to get people that are used to video games, just show up and hit play. Worlds Without Number is GREAT at giving tools to build it yourself.
@@booksbricksandboards783 I use either AD&D 1e or Castles & Crusades.
@@GrognardPiper both are good systems.
@@GrognardPiper I still use some of the AD&D 1e boxed sets and the Oriental Adventures book. Some really cool material in some of the older stuff.
Sometimes I wish they wouldn't have named the Known World, took all the Mystara out of it 😂
Very nice pun. Love it!
Also, nice hat. Go Tigers.
I was at the game against the Guardians/Indians on Thursday last week… 10-1!
what rule set was hollow world from
BECMI.
Another fun one is Fairy,
Queen and Country. $9.00 on Drive Thru
Would that be for the Amazing Engine? I had a few of those as a young man!
@@booksbricksandboards783 yes it’s amazing engine but generic enough it can be used with other systems
WOTC should definitely NOT revisit these. But you should! Theyre awesome
Definitely agreed!
You forgot Cannibal Halflings in Dark Sun
Actually it was at the 4:52 mark that I specifically said “cannibal halflings”.😉
No mention of Red Steel eh?
Sort of, instead of an individual region, I included all of Mystara. Red Steel is of course the Savage Coast of Mystara. I have the released Red Steel stuff, and I do enjoy it.
@@booksbricksandboards783 Seems like no one ever does Red Steel. I get it, it's niche. But I did do a Dark Sun+Red Steel combo. I had past Hafling Ridge Jungles, far past. An actual Savage Coast setup. That basically the mythos there they killed all who entered, cuz they wanted to keep that area of world as secret as possible. Had a whole Red Mist that covered it's borders, etc.. :p
Good idea, and crazy combo. I did a 4E Forgotten Realms campaign, level 1-20, over a few years, where they failed to stop Sazz Tamm from taking over the world, and the following campaign we played Dark Sun… I laid the hints that it was the far future of the Realms campaign and a result of their failure.
Detroit D&D! Go Lions!
I visited Detroit for the first time just a few weeks ago, and bought that hat at Comerica Park. Detroit really has gotten an unfair amount of criticism. Great town, wonderful people, and apparently some gamers with good taste in TH-cam channels! Thanks for watching!
Solid!
Thanks Dave, glad it provided some entertainment sir!
They have not even bothered to make a proper Realms setting book for 5e. Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms is still the best one by far but it's getting long in the tooth and hard to get hold off. Also the print on demand version is kinda iffy in the quality department.
Their business model seems to be, make books that have a little player info, a little GM info, a little background for a region, and an adventure… which ends up shortchanging each one.
@@booksbricksandboards783 Indeed but their corpo reasoning for doing so is simple and easy to follow.
-If we shove the GM stuff in the player books and vice versa the books are relevant to everyone, ergo everyone buy's the overpriced book!
It's all about that mythical wider audience and good old fashioned greed. Not one shred of thought went into playabilaty of the actual game or the logistics of carrying the equivalent of the library of Alexandria to game night but that explains why they went all out on digital.
Agreed, I think that the digital switch is also easier to take advantage of AI. AI DM’s, art & authors. Chris Cox hinted at using AI to mine their catalog. I think it will help small publishers the way 4E did.
@@booksbricksandboards783 Just like the OGL debacle did. It was like Christmas for all other RPG publishers the sheer influx of players and sales was insane. Tho i abandoned the sinking 5e ship around the "revamped" curse of strahd set.
Now i mostly play C&C and Dragonbane.
@@Neruomir yeah, never was a 5e “fan” played and ran one campaign each, specifically at the request of players. Won’t be back to 5e lol
Humbling players, every GMs desire.
lol. You know, they are the focus of the story, and rightfully so, but that doesn’t mean they have to be untouachable, or unrestrained. Putting some “walls” around them, in this case with water needs, makes them consider just how many enemies they want to make at one time in their small slice of the world. It in turn allows we GM’s to be able to focus on a smaller area and more restricted cast of characters.
With all due respect how does Birthright not make the top of this list?
I knew that topic would come up… to be completely honest, I have never dove into it… the guy in our group that had Birthright never ran it for us, and there was so much released I never took the plunge… I know roughly the parameters of the setting, but the only major AD&D 2e setting I haven’t played in or ran.
@@booksbricksandboards783 yeah it seems like that's the case with a lot of people. Everyone had it or knew someone who did and they were going to play it but never got around to it. I was lucky a dude I know had it, read and we played it. It was awesome. I've run it for 5e too and it is great. It gives you just enough detail to flesh out a campaign but not so much lore you have no freedom.
I have had it in my online cart several times. Just haven’t actually made the purchase. I also think that there is a very small chance that Birthright could see a release in the future. It doesn’t have some of the characteristics that would guarantee the other settings on my list won’t get a visit. I’d still like to try it.
No Oriental Adventures?
I don’t really consider it as the setting, that would be Kara Tur. Kara Tur is not that exciting compared to some of the other offerings. The mechanics in OA were very fun as a kid, but I look at them like Unearthed Arcana, they’ve been done better since. They redid all of the kits from OA and the martial arts system, between PHBR series and Dragon Magazine, and I prefer the 2e versions .