the fact that Max got so close to death, Lucas's reaction, the injuries that are permanent, that all hit me very hard and I was so worried. I think what they did with max works and I would have been so disappointed if they killed her. Eddie though, I feel like they added him JUST to kill him. They gave him a rushed version of the arc you explained for Steve.
Eddie was an amazing character, who was demonized for pretty much no reason by nearly everyone. I'm almost thinking they should do 2 more seasons just to kill of 2 or so main characters (idk), and then let one/two, perhaps El and Mike together or Will who might gain powers, die in the seeies final.
I kinda dislike how strager things seems to refuse to switch out the main cast a bit. I'm okay with not wanting to kill off your main cast, but it feels like they have a jarring amount of plot armor when new characters always end up dying, often due to pretty mild threats relative to other things characters go through in the series. Meanwhile the main characters make it trough some of the most extreme dangers pretty much unharmed (at least Max is an exception to the "unharmed" part). If you want death in your series, killing off some of the main cast and having side characters take their place is going to be something you'll likely want to do in order to keep the audience on edge.
My personal theory is that Eleven saw nothing in Max's mind because of what Henry said before. When he kills someone they stay with him. I bet that part of the plot involves not wanting to kill Henry until they can get Max's mind back from him.
Still a cop out. To make it make sense, they'd have to explain why Vecna doesn't just snuff out what's left of Max. I guess they could say that it's to bait El into a rematch... but that seems pointless since El wins every end of season fight by screaming really loud. Really wsh they did something more interesting with her abilities
@@remus4283 It's not really a cop out if the theory is correct. Henry gets stronger because he absorbs the minds of those he kills. He killed Max (albeit temporarily) so her mind would be in his. If anything the stakes would be higher because they would be killing Max for real if they killed Henry before freeing her consciousness.
@@remus4283 the duffer bros already said keeping max alive wasnt a cop out and that her being in a coma is integral to the plot of season 5. I'm betting getting her concious back into her body might play into closing the gates. Vecna definiteltly has her concious since its brought up twice in the season that when he kills he also consumes taking their memories and abilities to grow stronger.
I agree that max shouldn't have died but I disagree with her having a death scene then not dying. That is what feels like a cop out. The scenes of her almost dying earlier in the season were way better and more meaningful then the fake death. If she actually died then it wouldn't be so I felt. Like, even if in a storytelling perspective it makes more sense for max not to die. Then just don't have a death scene?..
yes, 100% agree, Max needed to live with a new struggle going forward, while Hopper and Steve's deaths would be very satisfying as they would go out as heros. I think an interesting question to pose when trying to reduce cast size is "what would be a satisfying reason for a person to leave the story?" For example: what if Will convinced Mike that they would be happy together if they could just get away from Hawking? like you said in your train scene video, the agency to choose to leave your own story is powerful and could be a topic worth exploring on its own.
I was pretty sure that Eleven going into Max's mind and seeing literally nothing was a very obvious hint that Max IS dead, but it seems like the duffer brothers really want people to wonder and think otherwise. It's likely her body will be possessed by vecna or something next season.
People are like “main characters need to die”. Ok then. You want main characters that give the audience a great performance to die? Then let’s kill off Steve, Dustin, Joyce and Hopper. Don’t act like this would be “good” for the show. It would absolutely destroy everyone.
The build up to Max's potential death has really great and shocking. I'm glad the way it ends. But for sure, I feared so much for Steve to die that it really shows how his death could be the strongest of the series. But I agree that even if there is a lot of "dead, or not lol" moments in this series, it works just so well, like the end of season 3, with Hopper and his letter, heartbreaking. The "find the body scene" in season 1 just destroys me everytime... There was some really cool moments !
Honestly, if you ignore the fact that Max's coma helps set up the plot for season 5, the state she's in is arguably even worse than death. Imagine yourself being so depressed you started thinking maybe you do deserve to die, then get convinced by your loved ones that it's worth fighting to survive, only to then get blinded AND paralyzed. That's dark AF for Stranger Things, so I'm thinking they might let her die at some point in the next season. As for Hopper, I do think he could die, but in that case maybe they should kill Joyce too? But simply because it would be kinda sad to have all this build-up of her finally opening up and accepting another man into her life, just for Bob to die in season 2 and Hopper to "die" once in an explosion and again for real in some other way. Maybe them dying together would be a better way to tie up their stories rather than just have Hopper's super dad arc end well and Joyce's story to end like "stop trying to find true love, it'll never work out for you".
I won't be surprised if they have Max get saved right before they are about to pull the plug and have her mostly unscathed within a few days. TV shows love unrealistic recoveries.
one thing i think is over looked is this is simply looking at it from a the character perspective. But from a storytelling perspective, in a show that deals with a lot of danger and death and kids growing up through all this. I think it would do wonders for that story development and fully transition stranger things to a more serious show, which it clearly is becoming. Also for a serious show, with all the danger these little kids experience with little to no weapons or help its kind of insane none of them have died. (that said i'm glad max didn't die, i think she's clearly the best actor of the kids and became my favourite character in this season)
Eddie was an amazing character, who was demonized for pretty much no reason by nearly everyone. Max suprised me a lot with her subtle acting that was on point and her scenes which were hard hitters. Although, Hopper probably should have died in the last season, his stay in a Russian labor camp was very entertaining to watch, and different from everything until now. I'm almost thinking they should do 2 more seasons just to kill of more main characters, and then let one/two, perhaps El and Mike / Hopper and Joyce together or Will who might gain powers, die in the series final. Max could return blind in season 4, but with powers, and then sacrifice herself, as Billy did in season 3, to finally get rid of her guilt and nightmares! (Hmm, I might be onto something~)
I think death is overused as a device because it's an easy way to conclude arcs rather than having a character persist while being out of the story. GoT is actually a unique example to compare to because it both did it well early on and poorly later, with the first few seasons meting out death freely, only to later have mostly untouchable main characters. Stranger Things was the latter way mostly from the start, so they're in a bad spot now where the main cast feel untouchable, but killing them would just feel like cheap shock value.
Actually, the character that comes to my mind with the death problem is - as you said- Hoper, i think he should have died after seasson 3 because now i dont think that any death scene could be better and also, if theu do it now, it wouldn't be a new feling, the trauma was already explored with Eleven and Joyce so i don't see a way of it being more effective now than it was back then. And his arc in seasson 4 wasn't even that good to be worth it, maybe he could have an important role on seasson 5 but still
I personally think Shireen's death was purely for shock value. Stannis just dies the next episode anyway the same way he would have had he not burned her. Davos didn't need an extra reason to hate Mel and one day of sunshine the sacrifice bought them didn't exactly affect the story.
The only fakeout death i hate is Hoppers. Every way that was framed and executed (both during and after the "death" scene) SCREAMED he died, not just hinted like the other fakeouts. Now he can't die, because it would feel fake.
Keeping Max alive was a good call on their part, because it gives the kids a lingering reminder of just what is at stake. If Max had been killed, they could hold a funeral and properly mourn her, then move on to what needs to be done. I think that she will be permanently paralyzed, because she will then have to come to terms with being unable to be an athletic "zoomer" anymore. I also think she'll tell Eleven at some point that she wishes she were dead even after Eleven did everything she could for her, driving Eleven's character forward in some way.
At first I thought Max should have died, but now that I see the situation in which they put her in glad she didn't and I wanna see what her role will be in the next season
I think her being alive is just as bad as her dying if not worse because of the permanent scars, her being blind and paralyzed. It makes things just as tense. If the show does a good job of not just showing her trauma but the rest of the characters especially the kids, they've been through so much to just be normal. Even if they're going to add humour, they shouldn't use it to downplay the tragedy. They acknowledge the trauma they're all going through. Optimism is the last thing anyone is feeling except it's denial.
Max being broken and in a hospital has a greater effect on the characters going forward than is she died. She can easily pass at any moment. Steve will definitely get killed doing something brave, probably protecting Henderson. Some sort of sacrificing himself. But they are going to have to do it good because his death needs to be his own and not similar to in any way to Eddie’s death. I hope they can pull it off. To many brave sacrifice deaths of loved characters can undermine the deaths and the characters meaning.
Mike dying would push Will and Eleven over the edge. We could see it used as a way for Vecna to manipulate Will into blaming Eleven for “stealing Mike from him” and put him against the group.
What about Nancy instead of Max? Hear me out. We get those scenes of Max through episode 4 (including Chrissy). But we also get scenes of Nancy acting the same way and are reminded that she still feels guilty about Barb. She interacts with Fred about it and he wants to say something but doesn’t know how. She talks to Steve and he’s like the Eddie/Lucas for her in this situation. She goes to Creel, wants a convo after his vision but Robin or the head guy cuts them off (and she’s worried about herself, not Max, while Robin is talking about the music). Then we have that scene of Nancy and Vecna, and he tells her that “You know what you did (as Barb), but tell Eleven what you see.” She tells the group while they try to call Joyce’s house. When Max volunteers, she tells her no and that she should do it because she thinks it’ll truly avenge Barb. Nancy hasn’t always tolerated the kids, and was a bitch until she felt sympathy for Jonathan & Mike about Will. But all she could focus on was Barb, why didn’t anyone remember her instead of only remembering Will? Then the scene of Steve talking to her in the van about the future, then later saying she was always there was a perfect set up for either to go. If Nancy goes, it asserts that Vecna killing a loved season one character, and Eleven going into her empty memories (instead of ones when she was alive) means he’s as powerful as Brenner said. “…when One kills, he doesn't simply kill. He consumes. He takes everything from his victims. Everything they are and everything they ever will be. Their memories, their abilities." It can give Mike a similar story (in season five) to Max’s in season four about overcoming grief, and that it wasn’t your fault, because he wasn’t there to help them. Plus it makes him more vulnerable, and Will proved that he’s always going to be there for him, which ties to the story with Mike, Eleven, and Will. It gives Jonathan, Steve and Mike a personal problem with Vecna and forces them to put aside their differences for Nancy (outside of basically taking over the world). It would impact how the characters react and their mindset into facing Vecna again. If Steve goes, it’s everything like you said in the video.
I honestly think that Hopper should have stayed dead, and that Dmitri’s message to Joyce should have turned out to be a trick to lure her to Russia so that he could sell her to the KGB, like Yuri ends up trying to do. Grigori knew that Hopper was the police chief, and therefore would presumably have also known his name, and even if he didn’t share that information with anyone else, there was at least one news article about Hopper dying in the “fire” at Starcourt Mall, so that would explain how Dmitri knew his name, and Hopper and Joyce were presumably on CCTV when they were talking about their date at Enzo’s in the Russian base, so that would explain how he knew to call himself Enzo to gain her trust. Obviously that would still leave the question of how Dmitri knew where to send the Russian doll, but that’s a plot hole anyway, given that Joyce didn’t sell her house until after the main events of Season 3, and even if she already had her eye on the house in California, she never told Hopper that. I know that implying that a character is alive only to reveal that they really are dead is very much between two extremes, but I can think of quite a few shows that did so successfully, such as Sherlock with Jim Moriarty, Line Of Duty with Jackie Laverty, or A Series Of Unfortunate Events with the Baudelaire’s parents (although in all fairness, the latter was aimed pretty heavily at people who had read the books, so most of the audience probably knew that it was a red herring.) It’s entirely subjective, but with Eleven and Max also getting brought back almost immediately after being killed it feels like the only deaths in the show which are both shocking and meaningful are the ones that get retconned. Bob and Eddie are pretty obviously set up to be the super likeable character who gets killed off for the sake of a gut punch, Alexei is a comic relief character who exists for much the same reason, Billy and Dr Brenner, despite both redeeming themselves in their final moments, are portrayed in a negative light up until that point (plus we’re told that Billy is going to die anyway when the mind flayer is killed), and most of the other character deaths, including Barb’s, are just there to establish the threat.
I’m torn on this. On one hand I’m glad Max survived, because she didn’t deserve to die, and it would have been horrible for Lucas. On the other hand I’m really annoyed, because the Duffer Brothers never kill anyone from the main cast, and when the scene with Max at the hospital popped up it kind of broke the magic for me. It felt like the Duffer Brothers made the story go there and then chickened out and decided to compromise. I really dislike how they kill off new people with nonchalance, whereas the main cast gets put through the ringer and 99% of the time they come out fairly unscathed. It just makes the whole thing feel like they’re superheroes and they can’t die and it kills the stakes in my opinion. It really annoys me because season 4 was great, but the threats are starting not to feel as threatening anymore because I know those twos are too attached to their characters to make them die. But had they killed Steve I probably wouldn’t be complaining at Max surviving like this. Also would have made a great setup for Nancy being targeted by Vecna, with all the hints in this season that Nancy was considering going back with Steve
I agree that Millie's phrasing is a little weird but I honestly don't think she meant that they need to start killing off character's left and right. You even bring up the way game of thrones did death well, and I think that's what Millie was referencing. I agree with her stance as well, the cast is too big and some characters are just boring at this point.
I just generally disagree with the notion that more death = better. It feels like claiming that shows a superficial understanding of what makes a story good. Death is only a plus when it fits an enhances the story and tone. And every single show wanting to be game of thrones will just kill the originality they had.
I don’t know if you’ve seen The Haunting of Hill House (or any Mike Flanagan story) but if you haven’t… you must. You’ve made me realise I adore tragedies, and that is both a tragedy and a balm. I have a personal theory that each Flanagan story hits different w/ each person’s own trauma (Hill House - family, Bly Manor - identity and love, Midnight Mass - religious) If you’ve watched it I’d love to watch a video of you inspecting it beneath a microscope. And if you haven’t I would love you to take yourself to your laptop rn and watch it because you will not be able to put the microscope down after.
You know, I used to think that Max should’ve died. I thought that the ending for her character was tragic, horrifying, and really well-written. A character who’s suicidal and plagued with survivor’s guilt begging for death, only to realize too late that she DOES want to be alive. But it’s too late. And as a parallel to her begging for death, now she’s begging for life. Only this time, her begging remains unanswered. But there’s a lot more interesting stuff you could do by reviving Max like they did. You have that horrifying moment, and then she comes back with a new perspective on life. She realizes that her life IS worth something to her, even if she’s blind and crippled. And yes, I do hope that she’s blind and crippled. Not because I dislike her, but because that’s an interesting direction for her character. But maybe now she has a deeper connection to Vecna that can help the team fight him. Maybe she has a deeper connection to Eleven, allowing El to basically have her powers in two places at once. And Lucas still loves her, even though she’s broken physically, just like he loved her when she was broken mentally. They should’ve kept Jason and Eddie alive though. Jason’s death was a lucky coincidence, and Eddie’s death was stupid. Why exactly did he stop running? Was he trying to distract them? They were already distracted. If Jason could’ve continued on his rampage, and Eddie could’ve maybe survived in the Upside Down, that’d be good. What if Jason fell into the Upside Down instead of being ripped apart, and ran into Eddie? And since Jason doesn’t have a weapon and Eddie does, Jason can’t attack him, and even has to depend on Eddie to protect him? Now THAT would be interesting. Jason would realize that Eddie isn’t that bad, and Eddie would protect Jason despite all the crap he did.
I think of Glenn’s death in TWD… While it was true to the source material, for the show’s purposes it was used as a gimmick. His death didn’t work beyond that scene imo. While it did create an impact on other characters in the show, his absence (and Abraham’s, for the matter) made the show much less enjoyable. His continued presence on the show would’ve been more beneficial to the show in the long run than the shock value of his death. The remaining characters were largely so awful, boring, & just uninteresting to the point where I lost all interest in the show shortly thereafter.
Season Four was good but incredibly predictable. Because I knew all the pre-established characters were safe and the new characters were introduced to be killed off by the end. Imagine my shock when most of them died.
No series needs to be Game of Thrones. If anything, series should actibly avoid being Game of Thrones, because when you star with death being important and then turn it into a gimmick, then it's just hollow. GoT used to be a world where consequences matter, even from the smallest actions, but the showrunners kind of forgot that after a while, it's clear they are not writers and they just wanted to be done, and that's a shame. I respect the Duffelt brother's desition to stick with their vision of their story.
While I do agree that Steve's death would be one of the only one's that could be narratively satisfying, I also feel like it would be a huge subversion of some major tropes to NOT kill him. I think it would be groundbreaking to have him survive and end up moving away with Robin, at peace and excited to figure out his way in life with his best friend. Because so often the narrative is that a character is tragic and might as well die if they don't have a succesful romantic plot and it very much feels like Steve is fitting that bill. And I would personally hate to see that actually happen, because it perpetuates this idea that you are a tragic character purely because of your lack of a romantic relationship AND it perpetuates the idea that friendship is inferior to romance. This whole notion (amatonormativity) is fucking exhausting for so many people in so many ways, and it would be so nice to see of all people a character like steve, who starts out as The High School Heart Throb, realise that for now having Robin and his friends is all he needs and that he has an entirely life ahead of him to figure out the rest. I know it's a tall ask, because, again, society and media are hyperfixated on romance, but god I'm begging the duffer brothers to give Steve a happy ending that does not include romance or death.
They made Eddie’s death very jarring because he randomly decided to sacrifice himself even though he and Dustin were out of danger. Felt like the writers wanted the shock value.
Yeah he basically achieved nothing with his sacrifice and it felt so stupid. Billy was an example of how to do self sacrifice right, and Eddie is how to do it wrong. Feels like they basically kill him just so that someone died that season.
Agreed. The annoying part was that they treated Eddie's death like this noble sacrifice when it was really more of a suicidal blaze of glory (which considering the life in jail or on the run he has waiting for him in the aftermath is actually understandable). But if they were really determined to kill Eddie off then I think they could have done it much better than having him run out into a swarm of demobats to "buy more time".
I'm honestly really tired of having people like Bob, Billy, Alexei and Eddie dying every season. You could have assumed it was a one-off with Barb in season 1 but nope.
@@optimisticnihilist3417 They could have fixed it simply by stating that he was doing it to make sure the demobat swarm didn't follow them through the portal to Hawkins. Makes perfect sense why he would need to distract the swarm longer, and adds even more irony to his sacrifice to save the town that hated him. My headcanon is that this was his true motivation, and he didn't tell anyone because he knew Dustin would follow and end up dying too.
like you said, some people disagree because they wanted a main character to die, but i'm glad they didn't kill max. i don't think killing her off would've sent a good message AT ALL considering she's a kid who's been dealing with s*icidal ideation (+ vecna in vol 1 kind of represented max's ptsd, survivor's guilt and depression) and was just starting to get better at the end of episode 4 and realize there are people who care about her and that she has things to live for. episode 4 ended with such a powerful message. killing her off would send the message that no matter what, no matter how hard you fight, you could never overcome your depression. and that's just a horrible message, no matter how "tragic" the season is supposed to be, the writers still have some kind of responsibility in my opinion and overall i just feel like it's wrong to end her arc like that as i didn't feel like her story is finished and she still has a lot of potential. (+the duffers said max being in a coma instead of dying is extremely important to the plot of season 5 and not just them "cheating death" so i assume she'll play a pivotal role in defeating vecna, maybe from within his mind)
also i know some people find el "reviving" max unrealistic but if you think about it, it kinda is. much more than hopper's survival in s3 at least. el used her telekinesis powers to basically perform intense cpr on max pumping her heart until it started beating again on its own. and we already know she can do these kind of stuff. remember when she made the bully from s1 pee in his pants? or when she got the chip out of 001? el doesn't "suddenly have healing powers", she just restarted max's heart like a defibrillator does lol. that's why max is still injured and in a coma, she didn't "heal" her, just made her heart beat again.
This video scared the fuck out of me because I haven't watched 4 yet. I heard it was a great season for her but I don't think killing her would work at all.
@@ursidae97 this season was definitely max's. we go a lot deeper into her character and sadie does a phenomenal job portraying her. if you watched the video/ read my full comment, you know max didn't exactly permanently died but it's... complicated. i'd definitely recommend watching. i think her arc this season was very relatable especially for anyone who ever experienced depression/PTSD.
This was something I hadn’t considered, but it’s a really great point. It perhaps gives the message that a suicidal person should be the sacrificial lamb to save others. That because they don’t think their life means as much as others, that makes it true. It would have destroyed her arc of learning to appreciate her friends and life again. Thank you for making this point
@@thehutch1674 It's weird seeing this post and then seeing the Star Wars side where people wish Reva had died. I think this is due to how characters are written and Max definitely did have a great season but she survived the first time. Rules of film dictate that the second time should've been permanent like Game of Thrones. You can't get lucky twice otherwise you become a Sam Tarly. He really should've died in the season 8 episode 3 Night battle.
I don't think this is what Millie meant but the way I interpreted her GoT comment was basically how there's too many characters and not enough story to go around. There are definitely some characters who do feel like they no longer serve a purpose to the story but because they're part of the main cast, the show refuses to kill them or even place any meaningful stakes on them. At the end of the day, what I want is for all of the characters to have meaningful arcs and to be important to the overall story. An interesting take I've seen online is how Eddie's death kind of serves as Steve's death without actually killing Steve. I think that Steve and Eddie are actually very similar characters, being cool but also losers in their own ways who both find their bravery to protect the others. There's this huge set up for Steve's death but it feels like the writers were like, killing Steve is too sad so we'll kill Eddie instead. It's frustrating to me how the writers killed Eddie when he's way more compelling than some of the other main characters.
I trust in the writer, they probably have something good in store, but I can see your point about Steve resembling Eddie. Making Nancy wonder whether she should be together with Steve - who's present, as opposed to Jonathan, who was distancing himself for a year now -, THEN killing off Steve and making Eddie take his place in the team might have opened up some interesting team dynamics. Jonathan would have gotten a redemption arc in his relationship with Nancy, Eddie would have been challenged to grow into Steve's shoes without having his experience against the Upside Down, etc. Eddie also had some positive traits that Steve did now, like his undeniable charisma and theatrics, which would have served the story well.
He's strawmanning. GoT didn't become bad because "me want more death", it got bad because of the quality of the writing declining resulting in the deaths no longer developing characters or intensifying the plot. GRRM had a point when he said that you shouldn't put your characters in situations where they should die if you're not prepared to kill them. It ruins the stakes each time a character survives impossible odds. In fact, season 7 and 8 of GoT were criticized for the comical amounts of plot armor given to the main cast. So idk what this guy is talking about.
Interestingly, Steve was actually almost killed off in Season 1. I think it would've been during the fight with Jonathan, but they decided not to. I'm glad they changed their mind and I think the way the producers are doing things is fine
"It's frustrating to me how the writers killed Eddie when he's way more compelling than some of the other main characters." THIS! The whole killing the new likeable character thing is getting very old very quickly. Meanwhile, some of the main cast have been dragged around with little to no plot attached to them just because they are part of the core team (Jonathan? Mike? I mean Mike had some purpose this season confessing his feelings for El when she was fighting Vecna, but it still felt forced). And also while I do get the arc they were going for with Eddie, I don't feel that a) he was shown to be cowardly enough to warrant a hero redemption arc (like sure, he was running away, but only because the whole town and police were on him while he was innocent and his innocence was almost impossible to prove - other than that him saying he was a coward was just spoken exposition rather than actual scenes) and b) his death even did anything for the group. Like for point b) he could have just gone up in the real world with Dustin, because ultimately it was Murray burning the Demogorgons/hive mind that saved Nancy, Steve and Robin. There was no need for Eddie to buy more time at that point - there was absolutely no need for him to be killed off!!
I also think the fandom has a lot to do with it. So many people don’t want Steve to die, which yes would make a more compelling story for his arc, but everyone wants to see him have a happy ending. It’s easier to kill off those characters such as Eddie who are pretty much built to die. While game of thrones showed no mercy in killing characters, none of the deaths meant anything to me. Then again, I didn’t care for that show whatsoever so my opinion on it is moot point. There were way too many characters and way too many subplots for me to care and be able to follow along and it got too confusing so literally none of the character deaths had a huge impact for me. Stranger Things is so different but I’d imagine the Duffer Brothers still have value in the main characters. But we’ll see in season 5.
I think he deserves to persevere, because he has shown that he can change. He changed from a self centered jock to a caring protector. I want to see him develop even further.
@@yoknom He won't. His character wasn't developed in the slighest in season 4. Nearly all scenes with Steve were him pining for Nancy or being there to drop silly one liners, and we've already been told a million times her dumping him was what kickstarted his development. There was no necessity to regress to that instead of keeping moving forward. It's the same reason why Mike's character has become so irrelevant to the main plots, bc he solely exists to push Eleven's arc forward at this point and I'd hate Steve going down that same route (besides being the comedic relief ofc)
@@blurrylinesx8039 Agreed, teasing Steve and Nancy getting back together felt out of place for both of them. Plus as kind f-ed up as the message would be, it kind of would fulfil the prophecy, I think Jonathan made, that she would rebel only to settle down as a housewife with a lot of kids like her mother, as that is in some sense what Steve wants. And that prophecy was made to call on Nancy to prove she wasn't her mother, whose has be shown not exactly happy with her life. Though frankly I could see Steve as a great house husband, maybe part-time guidance counsellor or in some childcare profession, despite his protestations he seems to enjoy being around kids and taking care of them.
personally I like they kept her alive. The ending was bittersweet, but I believe that Max's lesson this season was hope. As someone who has been in pretty dark places lately, I think writers should not kill off characters that are trying to learn that, as that would just be depressing.
@@dummheitswarnung5246 i think they don't mean it in a "oh that's so sad" way like how Steve's death would be, but in a "this character has struggled all season with suicidal ideation and even longer than that with self hatred" killing her would stifle the arc, if she died then her sacrifice would not mean much because then the bad guy just does what he set out to do. No conflict resolution, no hope, and it could serve to push Eleven and Lucas's arcs but then Max's death becomes a narrative device that's not more impactful than what happened now. For us it's plot armor but in the narrative the characters don't need a "oh shit the stakes are real" moment, they already KNOW it. If anything killing a severely depressed child only tells us that killing yourself is ok as long as it is for others. And many depressed people already think that ending their own lives is already going to be a net positive in the world. Killing Max is a meaningless death that would null the effect of the running up that hill scene, and THAT is depressing
Excited to hear your thoughts on this. New subscriber here! In my opinion, Max dying would've been a very unsatisfying way to end her arc. For me, it would've been such a terrible message to send after her actively choosing to live and realizing she doesn't want to die. Exploring how her injuries affects her and the people around her (not to mention the possibility of her playing a key role in defeating/infiltrating Vecna/Vecna's mind) is much more interesting than killing her for the 'stakes'.
I said this once and I'll say it again. Character deaths have been seriously overvalued by a lot of people online now. A death is a very important part of a story and has to be handled with the utmost care. You can't just kill major characters just to raise the stakes. There is so much more you can do with a character instead of them dying, that can also be tragic and shocking and there's other ways to end their arcs. More deaths does not equal better story.
EXACTLY! If they killed her, like he said it would’ve been mostly just to raise the stakes and such. And more importantly, like you said it would’ve been a terrible way to end her arc. Vecna represents her depression and death itself, and she chose to fight that. She chose to live, despite her dark thoughts. That was such a powerful, moving moment, and if they had just thrown all of that out the window and been like “Well guess what? No matter how hard you fight, you can’t win!” that would’ve sent a horrible message. I think it was better to end it with the fact that even after all she’s been through, literally getting her bones snapped and blinded, and metaphorically nearly succumbing to her depression and dark thoughts, she’s still technically here. She’s still breathing. That’s a better message, and a way better way to take the character overall. Totally agree with you.
Eddie’s death felt forced like they wanted the shock factor of death so they sacrificed Eddie 🥲 he didn’t have to die he just could’ve kept running he didn’t even need to keep distracting the bats 😭😭
the main problems lie in the trends of character deaths, which is the reoccurring death of the newly introduced side character. every side character death seems to build a stronger wall of plot armor around the main cast (which is too big) and it lowers the stakes for the show. Not to mention the fake out deaths, because even if one of the main cast appears to die (hopper, max), they come back anyway in very cheap and unimaginative ways. This season needed main cast deaths, both to break from the trend of likeable side character death and to raise the stakes for season 5. If you kill off some of the main cast in the final season, it's not going to add any development or stakes, it's just going to conclude their character. Hopper's death in s3 was perfect and made sense for the character, it also gave eleven and Joyce a lot of development. Max shouldn't have died in the first place, after eleven interfered with vecna, he should have gone for Jason to complete the gate instead or something.
Totaly agree with this. The stakes apparently keep becoming higher, yet the main cast is able to just jump over that fact and can survive everything that is thrown at them only bc they are MCs.
Exaclty. But I actually think killing off Max would have much more impact on the characters and would probably be one of the saddest deaths in Tv history BECAUSE she went through this super hard time. Just letting her live because she‘s been through a lot is just stupid in my opinion. Because this would make this death even more sad. She had the perfect set up for her death.
I agree. The theme of Stranger Things has always been about STRANGERS coming together for a common cause. We like to see that altruism rewarded through new friendships, bonds, and triumphs. Not people slaughtered for their kindness. That might be more realistic in the real world sometimes, but I'm not watching for realism. I'm watching it to see the best humanity CAN be. Plenty of characters die in this series. And their deaths always mean something. I don't see why we need more of it for the sake of it.
it is not for "the sake of it". it is because a lot of the main characters in the show have incredibly boring and uncreative plot armor that makes them survive literally the dumbest most dangerous bs when they should definitely die or get hurt a lot or caught or whatever. i get that stranger things is not a "realistic" show dealing with the upside down or whatnot - that doesn't mean though that the very much realistic real world it is set in has to abide to those fictional fantasy rules of unbelievable plot armor. it gets old and boring fast.
That may be how you enjoy television, but a lot of people prefer some sense of realism and consistency in the plot that has been developed in the show in order for them to be immersed in the story. People are not complaining because they want death 'for the sake of it'. I would hope people want meaningful character deaths that wrap up their arcs or have plot implications (better yet both). The reality is there's only so many times you can cry wolf on your characters before people start to lose interest in them. If Harry Potter suddenly had the ability to be immune to all magic, the story loses its sense of danger, and that's the issue. We should have ended this season on a sense of dread, and I imagine that was the intention. We have a group of indestructible teens, one of which can resurrect the dead. Vekna should be running the hell away from my perspective.
@@meggers1771 guess it comes down to personal preference and where you get your realism. 🤷♀️ It’s not unusual for the main cast to not die in an ongoing series. Harry Potter is actually a good example because NONE of the main crew died. Not even Malfoy. It was all secondary and tertiary characters. That didn’t make the story less meaningful though because enough side characters did die and we were left to wonder HOW the main crew would escape. Stranger Things is the same to me. Each season new characters are introduced and there’s tension around which will live or die (Barb vs Robin vs Eddie vs Billy vs Murray vs Alexei). And when the main crew DOES survive they often end up in a worse situation where they have to undergo character development that helps the team. (Ex: Will and Hopper) So the tension isn’t “will the main crew die” but “how will they live”? Idk it’s balanced enough that I still can enjoy the story. Though I wouldn’t have minded if Hopper had died tbh.
@@RoseEyed You don't need death in a story for it to feel impactful, that is fairly clear to anyone. Many great stories don't cover death. The problem is establishing stakes in a universe and ignoring them. In Harry Potter, the three main characters can use magic. Most of the main cast of stranger things are normal kids in the 80's. The two aren't comparable. Having the main characters all survive un-survivable situations so consistently towards the end of the season was just bad writing. If you are able to suspend your disbelief to a degree it didn't impact your sense of realism and therefore enjoyment of the episodes that's great, but that point is fairly unarguable. If you can present established reasoning as to why it's not, I'm open to hearing it.
I am on board with everything in this video except when you said "kill Joyce." Not only do I not see value in that, I don't think they can set up a good arc for it in the one season we have left. Would love to hear a more detailed explanation on what you're thinking here.
@@LesbianWeedBrownie he has the least possibility of dying. Fandom is not even invested in him, and the killings are mostly planned on how much impact they are going to make on the audience.
I don’t want Stranger Things to be like Game of Thrones and kill off characters every episode but there are frustrating trends with its character deaths: 1 - The likeable new character getting killed off each season (Barbara, Bob, Alexei/Billy and Eddie) makes these deaths really predictable and loses some impact 2 - The killing off new characters and then bringing them back (Eleven in S1/S2, Hopper in S3 and Max in S4) reduces tension and makes the stakes for the main characters less because we know they won’t die 3 - The possibility of a character dying but surviving - I’d not call this plot armor but it’s really annoying how the main characters always seem to be in a difficult situation and survive, which while is done in a way that’s possible, it just makes the stakes for the main characters lower. I think they should either have the guts to kill off a main character that’d end their arc in a satisfyinf way or not have situations where it’d be a good opportunity to kill a character or where they’re likely to die cause it just makes it so frustrating. You think they’ll finally kill off a main character and then they don’t. I think the issue lies that they don’t want to get rid of a beloved cast member or they’re too scared of pissing off a fanbase by having a fan favorite die even if it makes sense.
I agree, the writers are acting like I did when making a story with legos. Nobody that I (representing the fanbase) liked would die even though I would kill them but then they would come back and etc. While clearly there are deaths, they are usually meaningless while Max's death would have been a huge event. Not to mention that if Max came back to life, how is the gate from the upside down to Hawkins STILL created. Everything would make more sense if Max died.
@@timoplaysclash, Max died so therefore the gate was created and then Eleven brought her back to life. Honestly I’m glad Max didn’t die considering it’d not make much sense with her character arc but they need to stop teasing character deaths
I agree here mostly, except on one point. Well, two points collected into one point. I think killing Hopper at this stage would not work, precisely because he already got a fake out death. The problem with fake outs is that once you pull one off with a character, it becomes that much harder to make an audience believe the real thing or feel the oomph of the real thing. Additionally, Hopper's "death" at the end of S3 became just another "let's do something awful to Hopper" moment that the show loves to do. So, if we dragged Hopper through multiple forms of torture, loss, emotional trauma and physical abuse just for him to then die...that'd feel really underwhelming to me on the same wavelength as picking on Max all this time just to kill her. I think Hopper's a character where him getting the happy ending and learning he can just have it would work better. Steve, on the other hand, yeah, I don't see a real future for this kid that really works and a big sacrifice play could be very powerful. Especially toward Dustin's arc which has become largely about how he absorbs different role models of manliness (Steve, Eddie, etc). But I feel like a lot of these fake-outs make it much harder to legit kill the character off at this point. Even ones we know were fake, like Will. So...yeah.
I feel like Steve’s sacrifice death has already been done with Eddie. Eddie is what Steve should of been, but it felt like they were to afraid to kill off Steve so they did it to Eddie instead.
But if they can actually pull it off with a dead body and yeah a lot of gore it can motivate eleven to defeat vecna because stranger things is a all about motives.
@@PrincessLioness I think they did it with Eddie because it was more fitting. After all, he would have needed to live on the run, because he was still hunted by the Hawkins people.
I would add to that, that it would just be another lost parental figure for 11. Her bio mother denied and practically lobotomised, her bio father unknown, her first father figure spent most of her childhood torturing her for various reasons and then eventually died, she thought she lost the first father figure to show genuine concern for her in s3 and grieved that, only to get him back. And we haven't really seen Joyce become a maternal figure on screen, just the start of becoming one. So killing him proper would feel like rubbing salt in the wound. Also speaking of Joyce, killing Hopper would be killing another of her past abusive-ex partners leaving her alone again. So her arc becomes every time she finds someone she is happy with, they die.
Exactly. I feel like killing off Hopper in season 5 wouldn’t be nearly as impactful narratively for his character due to what took place in season 3. If we hadn’t gotten that fake out I would be much more for him dying in season 5 to save eleven and complete his character arc. But they did a fake out and now it would feel significantly less meaningful especially considering his letter scene in season 3, like we already mourned him, if it were to just happen all over again it would make the ending for season 3, along with his arc in season 4 almost entirely pointless.
when you said "Steve should die" i cringed so hard because thats exactly what i was thinking during s4 and i really don't want to see him die. but just from a character development standpoint you're totally on the money. it'd be his grand resolution (but absolutely break me personally)
to be fair i'm pretty sure millie was sort of half-joking when she said that, i think it was a little teasing jab at the duffer bros for adding in new characters every season but hardly killing any off
Yeah this ^ Pretty sure she was just making a glib joke because of how many people were in the group photo, using a reference to the show most known for killing its characters. I'm sure she didn't actually want these friends and colleagues around her to be killed off in the show and not come back
i disagree that people should die more for no meaning but i DO believe that some should if it fits their arc as you put it so in a nutshell i agree with your opinion on the matter we shouldnt use death as just shock value when its not needed it should be more meaningful to us and the story
My problem is less that Max didn't die and more that she did and came back. Stories don't need to have death, but if they do they should respect it. If you kill a character, commit to it. Bringing them back usually undoes more than it adds. It's a cheap fakeout. If they didn't want to remove Max from the story, they should have just opted to not have her die in the first place.
I think there's could be an interesting thematic element between 11 and 1 here. 1's plan was completely centered around death and the way that his powers could cause and use death. 11 being able to reverse death serves as another interesting contrast between the pair. There's a lot of risk with giving someone the power of resurrection (the end of Star Wars episode 9 comes to mind, and Rinne Rebirth only worked once in Naruto), but capable writers could make it work.
Exactly!! I feel like it would have also bean more realistic if El had immediately started thinking of what she could do to help Max and jumped into action (since I feel like that’s usually how she goes about things when defending her friends) keeping her body stable until help arrived but not being able to repair anything thus leading to Max’s coma. But I guess maybe they had to have her fully die in order for vecna’s curse to be complete and open the portals
In theory Eleven like... gave her CPR using telekinesis or something? This deathtricking is at least still less confusing than when they killed off Jack Sparrow (not in Stranger Things bruh) and then brought him back from the end of the world lol
What about killing Jonathan? He seems to have run out of story potential in S4, being reduced to "Will's stoner brother". (I would actually argue that he ran out of story potential the moment they paired him with Nancy.) And that could have a lot of potential impact for Will and Joyce. They could even do an interesting inversion of Joyce's role by having him die to save her.
Maybe the trouble is the coma, having her be "asleep" (like how coma is portrayed) after all that, kinda makes you feel a bit cheapend, like, we KNOW she's eventually going to wake up and be ok, it'll follow the trope, so you know, that after all that despair, nothing of permanent value will be lost, and it wasn't shown in a way that gave us hope, just a kinda wierd pause. I think that she should be awake but disabled by Vecna's curse, she should be either blinded or chairbound, so we can feel the consecuence of the defeat that was the ending of this season, but she is still alive and can fulfill a supportive rol instead of just being an inanimated object next season.
YES she should be blind they even have the movie friday thing so imagine next season her being blind and Lucas describing what is happening to max that would be beautiful and sad and make you think ok she didn t die but her risky move of using herself has consequences because she is ok next season, yeah coma its very bad but after the coma she is ok as nothing had happen before that feels weird
My main problem with Max's "death" is that they had it both ways. They both "killed her" (squeezed all the emotions out of grief of the characters, of the audience etc) and they got the relief of her being alive. They left the suspense too long for me, they had too much out of the death and so bringing her back to life feels CHEAP. Deaths feel cheep, stakes feel fake. There is no genuine horror in this show because we know that if a character gets too much development they'll die and we instinctively don't get attached. If a main character is in danger we don't even flinch because we know they don't have the guts to follow through. I didn't believe for a second hopper died and I didn't believe max died, I was more angry when she was revived than relieved because I was HOPING they'd prove me wrong but they didn't, they doubled down on the bland overused formulae that sucks engagement out of every narrative it touches.
People are taking Millie's opinion so literally. When did they kill off any character from season 1 to the next seasons after it? NONE. So in a general sense, I agree that the writers need to kill more characters. The main reason is there's so many characters and they can only focus to a small amount of characters. Therefore, there will be other underutilized characters who barely even have a purpose like Jonathan, Mike, Will which supposed to be main characters but barely had any screentime. They can kill them of OR kill those characters who already served their purpose like Steve and Hopper. If they did this, they can stop introducing and building characters just to kill them off at the same season like Eddie, Bob and Cherry Slurpee Guy. And I'm not only talking about S4, they should've doing it in the earlier seasons.
I love Stranger Things, probably my favorite show atm but yeah it's true that they only kill side characters (RIP Eddie The Banished) but I agree with what you said, you can make things "death-like" more interesting than death itself. If they would have killed Max, she'd be gone and that's it but they left her broken in a state which you are not sure what's even left of her, on comments and reactions I didn't see many people mention that when Eleven goes into her mind at the end, it's just a void, as if she's not even there, finding out what that is it's more interesting to me than just having her die.
I think as a character, Steve has so much to say. He doesn't deserve to die narratively speaking for the sake of a gut punch. He has to prevail so he can be a beacon to all the people that can relate to his everyday life. Aside from Max, He's more relatable to Gen Z than many people realize, and personally speaking, I wouldn't kill him off.
I’m with you, personally think they’ve teased his death each season too much that killing him off in the final season wouldn’t be a surprise & would feel like a cheap emotional gimmick. If they Kill any of the main cast off which I don’t think is necessary at this point, it should be Nancy, as her death would hold the most weight as it affects the most characters.
@AESTHETIC BOII I never said she needs to die, none of them need to die, but if they go down that route Nancy would be the most impactful to the other characters. And come on dude turn off the caps.
@@funkygibbons I'm kinda with you here as not only would it hurt the characters emotionally, it would also be a way to sort of end the love triangle that sprung up during this season.
I’m glad that Max survived, cause if she didn’t, then the whole scene with her in Dear Billy would be pointless. It’s about running toward the people that care about you and to not give up. And if she dies anyway, then it just kinda invalidated that message.
I think that Max's maiming scene would have been better if El didn't magically revive her at the end, but they managed to just pull Max through to the hospital. It would have made it more of a maiming scene than a death scene, which would have been more interesting, while also NOT giving El the power over life and death because that's... not quite a good idea.
I agree with most of it BUT I don't think when you kill a character you're "losing them forever for that scene". The death has repercussions, in a way, a dead character is still a character, as their death and who they were still influences the world and other characters. You touched on that on your video about how they "fixed" max when talking about Billy.
I'm in two minds about whether or not they'll kill Steve. He's a fan-favourite and one of the more relatable characters in the show. His arc has been fantastic and I don't think they NEED to cap that off with his death, but on the other hand it's been foreshadowed constantly since the end of season one, and he really does keep throwing himself between the others and danger.
I get what you mean. But, i just feel like never killing off any main character never raises the stakes and doesn't allow me to take the villians seriously. If vecna and the mindflayer are these super powerful creatures how come they can barely catch a group of teenagers that don't even have superpowers? I feel like just killing off even one of the main characters would make the audience feel like this villian is actually a force to be reckoned with, and things are serious and intense.
Oh don't worry, Duffers have said no one is safe next season... It's the last one after all. Or at least it's like their Endgame, except none of these characters have extended franchise contracts :P
I'm glad they didn't kill Max but that's just mostly because I really like her. however I am glad that they had veccna break arm and leg and blind her, because then her being saved isn't as much as an 'oh she got saved and she's completely unscathed' just like last time it's really putting in the steaks that she accepted when she decided to be bait.
I honestly feel like, Nancy would be a good death, I feel like her story is getting too involved in an almost, childish love triangle arc, shes the type of person to charge into action, super ambitious, what if she gets too into her head in a moment, getting herself killed? Like, I feel like, her and eddie shouldve had opposite fates (edit: I feel like eddie is a character that can be developed alot more, with the town hating his guts, everything that happened to him, his sense of vengeance because of chrissy, there was alot that couldve been done with his character in genuinely interesting ways which would shake up the story, well... Nancy, right now TO ME, is running a bit dry). My sort of logic is, it would almost be a punishment for the cast, but mostly steve and jonathan, it feels like their entire character revolves around romance but take out the romance aspect? Theyre forced to develop, forced to work together, forced to see theres more to life then just a literal love triangle, like the whole season 4 jonathan college thing, i feel like its a good conflict, but it feels so futile in the face of LITERALLY VECNA, if nancy were to die, it would be like, a giant slap to the face of the cast that there are REAL consequences to this, Mike would have to face real grief, theres been a lack of nancy and mike scenes in the first place, so imagine how devastating it would be to not have been there, to be sitting on the side lines,, he'd be vulnerable, instead of just lying to his parents all the time, he'd have no choice but to face the grief within himself and with his family.. really, toughen him up, solidify his motives. Instead of just introducing a new character for one season and killing them off, it'd be a real, genuine punch to the gut to how real and how dangerous this is, because with everyone surviving in these circumstances, it just undermines the actual danger OF the circumstances theyre in, vecna barely feels like a threat, but yeah, I have no idea how that would be written into the story, theres tons to be argued here and lots of holes in my logic, but i just think it would be a good death if done right because it would really force the rest of the cast to develop and humble themselves
One of my biggest takeaways from a literature class that I took was the line, "the most important thing a character can do is die." What you said fleshed out this idea very clearly, especially concerning the hypothetical Steve death scene. When used properly, a character's death can offer something to the story that no other action can.
I'm glad they didn't kill max for the exact reasons you presented - new dynamics with setting and character. (that being said, there's always the possibility that she's totally brain dead) I'm skeptical about Steve dying tho, I feel like if Steve was to die they really shouldn't have killed Eddie because if they both die, ho boy is Dustin gonna be struggling with depression for the rest of his life, two father figures and close friends dying - usually when he's the one coming up with plans hence making it easy for him to blame himself... yeah, don't be mean to Dustin please, he's easily the best character in the show for me
i would've loved it if steve died when he got attacked be those bat-thingies. eddi and the 2 girls could have such a great moment with him dying right after they found him in the upside-down. for me eddies death felt completely wasted because there wasn't any relevance in regards to the plot
Why do we as a people always anticipate and almost crave death in media nowadays? It's quite concerning, actually, people want characters to feel real, to be able to connect with, yet people yearn for tragedy? Who says that death must be used to progress a story? How exactly would Max dying help El search for the strength she needs to defeat Vecna? How, exactly, will it rekindle Lucas' relationship with the rest of the gang??? A person isn't defined by a tragedy. Stranger Things is not a show that uses death to progress story. If anything it hinders the story. The only death which in my opinion was actually beneficial in the long run was Billy's. Barb's death was oh look Nancy's friend died but tbh it could have been any random kid Nancy knew. Bob's death, though tragic and done really well, only served as something that triggered Joyce's PTSD which in my opinion would have hit harder if in the flashbacks she was thinking about Will, yknow, her son, but whatever. This season, Dr Brenner died, Eddie died, which was tbh uncalled for imo, and a bunch of other characters we didn't really know enough about to care. The only one in that list that really made sense was Dr Brenners death but at the end of the day we all know that shit was rushed and wasn't given enough attention. (tbh Eleven's whole arc this season was good but it was kinda overshadowed by the stuff happening in Hawkins). And so if Max had died, so, so what? The viewers see an obviously suicidal girl actually die, after saying finally that she wants to live? People actually wanted to see that? People actually wanted to see Max die a horrible gruesome death which wouldn't have in anyway sent any kind of message whatsoever other than, 'lol she lived once but cause she went in again she had to die even though this whole season this girl has been battling between whether or not she wants to live or not?' I just don't get it. Max fought to live, and she deserved to.
Exactly this. It's like people that only want death for the sake of death in media when there are so much better ways to raise the stakes. And the seemingly complete disregard for Max's character arc this season. Killing off the girl that was suicidal but in the end wanted to live until her last breath?
The issue, from what I understand, isn't that people want characthers to be dying left and right, it's the way that the show is going about the few deaths we have. As you said, none of the deaths we had so far had any deeper meaning because they all follow a pattern: 1. Characther gets introduced, 2. The show make us like them, 3. They die. Bob, Eddie, Alexei, they were all like this; it's gotten to the point where if some charming new face comes along, you already know they're doomed from the start. It erases all tension. But that's when it comes to side characthers. When the threat is upon the Main Cast™, the show uses fakeouts so that they can get the emotional damage of the characther dying, but not the consequences. Exibit A: Will mid Season 1, B: Hopper at the end of 3, and C: Max at the end of 4. It's fine once, but if you use it all the time, it starts to feel cheap. Overall, this results in the word "death" meaning next to nothing in the context of Stranger Things and, when the main stake is supposed to be about dying while fighting a big scary monster, suddenly the monster is not that scary, because you know it can't really do anything. This show doesn't need a bloodbath to have stakes, but it needed to use the threat of death more sparringly. If Max's fakeout was the first main shock we got since S1 fake-death-Will, far less people would've wanted her dead.
Putting in my two cents here, I don't think death is what completes a character's story (though it is in real life), and you shouldn't need to defend against plot armour accusations by killing off main characters. Your show doesn't always have to mimic reality by being able to kill off anyone. This is fiction! Give your characters armour if you want! If people don't like it, they can watch/read something else. This can become a problem if you first establish that anyone can die, but one or two tragic deaths per season of a loveable character, in my opinion, isn't (even if s1 tried to establish it with barb.) Conversely, people who are left behind in their worst state for the rest of their lives happen in real life. Isn't that interesting? You can leave a character hollowed out with grief and with very few attachments left, and you can just end their arc like that. In some ways, it can be more tragic than the heroic, 'guns blazing' death scene they could have had and I haven't seen it with a main character yet.
I think I'm just going to link people back to this video whenever I see this conversation pop up. Because YES! To everything you said. Bad use of death can hamper a story. If you are going to bring in death, it needs to make sense and work for the narrative and character. Max's death is not the "right" death for how they built the story / character all season, and would have resulted in the show losing more than it gained. I get some people are annoyed with how the show has handled death up to this point, but the show's past dealings with death shouldn't be a reason to force a death in a place where it wouldn't work very well.
I think they should've killed hopper, not max. I was worried whether max would die or not, but I didn't want her to, nor did it feel like that would resolve the plot in a nice way. Hopper was set up to die though and not killing him immediately tells you no matter what happens through the plot of s4, he will survive lessening any action he takes. I'd also be happy to see Steve survive all the way. At this point I don't think it would make meaning. He has since even season 1 put himself in some of the most dangerous roles and in even season 3 his main priority is keeping everyone safe. If he was going to die, it should've been in season 3 at the latest. by season 4 he is the hero/protector.
I wish they had killed more characters and kept people like Bob and Eddie around (or made Bob a Russian spy like they sort of alluded to). I love most of the ST cast but I do think it would have been more compelling with a more evolving cast, instead of everyone living but insert Murphy, Suzie, Robin, Erica, and Argyle as a part of the group. And the fact that the main cast hasn't really changed and I was able to mention 5 new characters since season 1 with significant screen time, not even including the side characters that get killed each season, shows how inflated the cast has become.
I do think hoppers death shouldn't have been revoked, although season 4 does him well, it was a fake out that I personally didn't like. If he'd have died there it would have been a satisfying climax to his character imo, not killing him would have also been fine. But "killing him" and him not being dead is just unsatisfying and makes the death scene seem undeserved for me.
Killing off Stranger Things characters would hurt the show's identity for sure. What Millie Bobby Brown didn't realise is that Game of Thrones had a formula for meaningful character deaths. GoT sets up well known character arcs, which suggest endings for those arcs we got used to by other fantasy titles, and THEN injects realism into those stories, leaving the arcs abruptly. GoT makes itself look like a fairy tale but turns out to be a history lesson. And that's why - at least at the beginning - it was completely okay to kill off people representing different political ideas or sets of values. It showed us that our moral judgement about those characters will not result in a hero's journey path or a redemption arc, these deaths pushed us to think realistically about the relationship of morality and power. It wasn't just simply cruel either - as Joffrey's low made him a politically target just the same as Ned's unrelentless, even naive pursuit of justice. Stranger Things has this completely different thing going on. This show builds upon the legacy of Stephen King and a couple of well known thriller / horror titles (like Elm street, Freddy Kruger's name even came up to show his similarity to Vecna, being an untouchable killer, who can commit his gruesome acts from an invisible world). Stories like this often have a tendency to become mindless slasher titles, as you have a short period of time to kill off several characters, and those characters do not have time to develop, so most of them are two dimensional stereotypes we know from our own life. Stranger Things, however, is a series, and as such, has more time to develop it's characters. The show almost always begins with introducing stereotypes but slowly builds context around them. Chrissie, the queen of the high school, wasn't just a random cheerleader, she was lost, she had flaws and trauma, she was relatable, and was open to connect people outside of her circle. James wasn't just your average football / basketball prick either - he had some narcissistic tendencies and placed himself over the law, but he actually had a caring side, he was understanding and also a great leader. What Stranger Things does is that instead of closing down people, putting them into boxes that can not be opened, it expands upon their context and explains their morality through their backstory, giving them both flaws and virtues. Stranger Things has a thing for deliberately disrupting stereotypes. Killing off characters just for the sake of culling the cast would diminish the resources the writers have. I also agree with leaving Max alive. If Max would have died, it would actually had been a cheap copout from her rise arc. She had a bad life, we all get that, maiming her makes it actually so much worse. But now there's nowhere to run for her. She can not physically escape anymore. She has to be there, she has to be vulnerable and finally face her fears. (As she began with being open to Vecna.) To Max, it was so much more cruel to leave her alive - and that's the point. This is a thriller. It needs to be hard on the characters. Killing her off would have given her a closure. She doesn't get to have one just yet. She needs to earn it. And that's torture for her, and we are here for that torture. The story is driven by the undeserved cruelties of the real and the fantastic mixed together in the plot.
I don’t think she’s entirely wrong, Villains are difficult to take serious when they can’t deal major blows, with 4 seasons of no real major characters dying, vecna doesn’t even seem like a real threat, as we know the power of friendship group can beat him
I really want to hear what you think on Eddie dying. I didn't feel that his death was necessary and when I finished the show I felt like he died just to say they had a character people cared about die, he did complete his "I didnt run away" arc but I felt like their was so many ways to finish that arc and that a death scene from a more "ripe" character like hopper or Steve would have been more impact full.
He'd definitely be in jail if he survived. Then the campaign to prove his innocence (with Murray's involvement because you just know he'd be all over that) would have been either a B-plot in season 5 or the premise for the Duffers' teased Stranger Things spin-off.
@@jeffreycarey1680 Or alternatively, Murray sets Eddie up with a new identity and puts him into a sort of informal witness protection program. Then the B-plot would be Eddie struggling with the fact that he's essentially running away again while the others are back in Hawkins facing Vecna. Then in the latter half of season five, Eddie comes back to Hawkins knowing full well that he's throwing away his only chance at freedom. Maybe he's learned some crucial piece of information while in hiding as well. Lots of emotional payoff with Eddie basically going on this revenge quest against Vecna for ruining his life and killing Chrissy in front of him, and also coming to the rescue at the eleventh (heh) hour. THEN Eddie dies (because lets be honest the alternative is life in jail and universal condemnation for a crime he didn't commit), preferably actually saving people in the process. But before he does he's had time to touch the lives of more than just Dustin, and so his death carries a much greater emotional weight for everyone. Also goddammit Wayne deserved better than to hear an abridged version of his nephew's death from Dustin and not even get to bury the body.
I agree with you even tho I would die if steve and hopper had died or die also max dying just wouldn’t work out because as duffer brothers said her situation has a big role in season 5 so it was planned for her not to die for the storyline to go on
I used to want to kill off a bunch of characters and now I have a hard time coming up with logical reasons for death. Which led me to revive at least 3 diff characters. For these cases I realized the only characteristic they really had was their death and also their particular set of skills would help move the plot forward.
Am I one of the few people who saw Ned Stark as the Mufasa of his clan, so knew he was going to die from the start? I feel like the brilliance of all the deaths in GOT (until arguably Tywin but definitely Jon) is that the story made you forget that the dying characters weren’t the heroes of the story, they’re just who the main characters wished they could’ve been saved by.
Tywin’s death makes more sense in the books. Look up Macabre Storytelling’s video on Tysha. He explains how omitting Tysha, Tyrions first wife who actually loved ruins his arc. Tywin took away on of the few people who loved him, which is why after learning the truth Tyrion kills him in a rage.
@@PrincessLioness Small world, because I love Macabre. And love how he was the first to point out that that was when the story really started to fracture. Dragon Demands is probably right about how the TV treated Tywin (too kindly), but Macabre's solutions were brillaint. The Tragedy of Tyrion is one of the stories that made me give George RR Martin (and all adaptations thereof) my full rapt attention.
Its not about "useless deaths" or "ending character's arcs because they are running out of ideas", its about stakes being higher and higher each season, every new villain is supposed to kill everyone around them, all the side characters, yet throughout the past 4 season not a single main character dies, because they are, idk main characters? I mean like, chrissy dies in a second, fred does too, patrick aswell, but when it comes to a main character, nancy or max, vecna decides to suddenly not kill anymore and just straight up chit chat because they are what, main characters? Or in max's case, eleven is now able to pump blood into her body artificialy (which she never did before) only so that a main character doesn't die. In a show where everyone dies, its kinda stupid that the 6 kids, 4 teenagers, and 3 adults keep on surviving for 4 seasons. It gives us a feeling of safety or a feeling that the villain isnt all that scary as we thought he was when he killed chrissy or fred. It feels unrealistic and stupid that they are able to fight against dimensional creatures that snap bones at their will of mind, a huge parasyte 50x times bigger than a human, and a walking predator. If everyone is in danger and everyone dies, make it so everyone does die (including main characters, not just the side ones).
I think stakes should be brought up, and how the tension of a show can be ruined when there are so many instances when characters are close to death, but they don’t actually die. There are tons of moments in Stranger Things when a character is saved last-second, and there’s been almost as many fake deaths as real main character deaths. I don’t think the main problem for the show is that it has too many characters, or that it wouldn’t be able to have good enough reasons for specific characters dying. The main problem is that the stakes are at about the same level as Marvel movies. It takes all the suspense out of the show. So in my opinion, more mice.
Agreed. Cop out deaths is one of the worst things you can do for tension. While I don’t like to see characters die, I am under the opinion that once you kill a character you should commit to it. At the same time, I think it’s important to add meaning to the character’s death. Have it change the world (in some cases), the plot and the characters around them. If nothing changes, why in the world did you kill the character? Makes me think of a book trilogy where one significant character was killed at the ends of the two first books. Not only did it affect the reader, it also had an impact on the main character and was important for her motivation and character development in the following books. It also raised the stakes significantly. Only two characters had died, but by the end of the third book, you knew that characters you and the protagonist cared about would die. Personally, I dreaded it, but I wouldn’t change it for the world. In the end, kill with purpose.
@@alecocothunder8277 The series is written by Mark Lawrence and is called the Book of the Ancestor. The first book is called Red Sister. It is basically about this girl called Nona who was sold as an 8 year old. After being sentenced to death, she is saved/taken in by the Abbess of the Sweet Mercy convent and is allowed to enroll basically. What is important to note is that they train assassin nuns. So Nona and the other novices learn how to fight, how to brew potions and how to use the lesser and greater magic systems (if their blood allows them access to the magics). Oh, and the reason Nona was sentenced to death is that she (almost) killed the son of a powerful family. Now they want her dead. Hope you don't think I spoiled too much, but that is basically what the series starts with. Everything mentioned will stay relevant throughout the whole trilogy, but there is more to the story that will be introduced later that would definitely count as spoilers. Some people say that the first book can be kinda slow, but that is honestly where a lot of the groundwork is. Characters, world building and such. Personally I found reading about Nona, other characters, and her relationship with them a joy, but I am a sucker for good character work. Anyhow, I could talk about this trilogy for ages. If you think it sounds interesting, I definitely say give it a try :)
No we dont always need main characters to die. Idk why everyones obsessed with a show/movie killing them off. George lucas was never a fan of it either, in the OT, all the main characters survived and it was still great. Theres also a massive misconception about game of thrones. It didnt just kill characters off randomly. Especially in the books (which are 1 million times better than the show) read the books, you aint gonna see characters die off left right and centre. The show became a joke and shouldnt even be used in any kind of analysis post season 4 tbh. I think the only reason people think max should have died is because she took SO MUCH damage that anybody would 100% have died from those injuries. I agree with what you say about steves arc but disagree with the end result. Why should he die? Why cant he discover his bravery and choose to live a peaceful life in spite of a "cool" one? A character becoming braver doesnt mean they have to die. I get that sacrifice is the ultimate act of bravery but theres other acts that dont need to result in death. Also im confused, what about steves monologue indicated that it meant he should die? A character explaining what they want in life isnt always a sign that they're gonna die. Its become a trope yea but its not always the case with every character at all. I definitely disagree with hopper to. He doesnt need to give his life for El, he can just give her a life. That to me is more meaningful. Providing her a full normal life rather than just dying for her. All that would do is just make Els life even more painful, why destroy two lives for no reason whatsoever? This is a man whose life has been constant suffering for years, now he finally has the chance to live a good life whilst providing that to someone else to, killing him would just be cruel. I would argue that every character arc imaginable can be successful without a character dying. Not saying main characters shouldnt ever die, just that theres a hundred ways, besides dying that can complete a character arc, no matter what that arc is, death is just an option.
An understated negative of having a lot of death scenes imo is that it makes your series REALLY easy to spoil so if you don't build up a proper entertaining story around the deaths it can be a huge problem
I think the fact that Max finding the strength and will to escape Vecna and live in episode 4 would have been really soured if, feeling stronger and more emotionally prepared with her friends at her back, she returns to face him again only to die. It's a really uplifting moment, made all the more powerful by the clear metaphor for trauma, grief, depression and even suicide. I think it's kinda gross in the narrative to have her face that again and lose. Injured, scarred, traumatised sure. But to just die? Nah, it kinda shits on her arc.
I absolutely agree on your take on this, and as much as I don't want Steve to die because he's one of my favorite characters I do think it would play well into the story. I'll still be heartbroken for a little while if/when it happens though 😅
I think that deaths need to happen so it doesn't seem like there is no sacrifice in fighting evil. Stranger Things should kill main characters in season 5 and it would make up for being too soft in prior seasons. I think that the expectation that all our favorites will live and then having the power to upend this in season 5 could make it more scary. I would say that Max is safe, and by extension Lucas is safe, Mike is probably safe, Dustin probably is safe, but Will might not be. His brother Jonathan might not be. Steve might not be too. Robin I think it's safe (not definitely), Eleven might not be safe. Joyce is safe I think, Hopper isn't safe but I tend to think he is, Maury could die and I think that he might. I base this off of the foreshadowing for future character development that might point to death versus life and that the Duffers don't want to be overly cruel (so we won't see Hopper AND Will die and crush Joyce's entire universe, Max won't wake up from her coma just to see that Lucas is dead, I think that we can be confident of those sorts of things)
She’s right, no main characters die. If it doesn’t feel like the characters are at risk and the stakes really aren’t that high. Even though some of those seams were nailbiter’s, he had to know they weren’t really gonna kill anyof the main characters. It is a cop out and it cheapens the show
I also feel like them not leaving hopper dead ripped the giant emotional rug out from under of our feet. It immediately soured the taste of the letter at the end of S3 for me.
this video just calmed my mind. i have been thinking about maxs “death” scene ever since i watched it, like you said i couldn’t except the “yuuuuup”. her final moments were beyond horrifying, i cant think of another character dying with sm regret, even a villain. i agree with another comment saying that max is probably trapped in vecnas mind, so season 5 will most likely be about saving her. i really wasn’t expecting hawkins to take such a fat L overall, but it’s probably redemption time soon
So I think the value of death in this series would be valuable in the way the characters change and interact with each other. Even just one death no matter who it was would have a lasting impact on the characters and it would be cool to see
My read on millie's comment was that she wants more attention on her character, more time and opportunities to flex her acting chops, and having too many other characters for the audience to care about is taking that away from her. It wasn't a deep comment or legit literary critique, it honestly just sounds like she wants more attention. As for deaths in stories, I agree they need to make sense with someone's arc and serve a purpose, but I'd add that I always hope deaths will avoid cliches - I'm glad steve and hopper didn't die bc men sacrificing themselves in battle to defend their loves ones feels cliche at this point. I want Hopper to live to be a better person and father than he has been. I want Steve to live to continue embracing the caretaker role he's been thriving in (btw he hasn't cared about being cool since mid S1 like at all) and find fulfillment that way. Dying is easy. Living well is hard.
🎶”Running away is easy, it’s the living that’s hard.”🎶 Completely agree with everything you said but I feel that Steve doesn’t have much going for him. He wants love in his life not just the kids. Something personal, because it’s hinted his parents didn’t give him much attention growing up. Thus, wanting to be popular and have the cliche high school life. Either they write him off with someone and make him move on from Nancy and develop character, or give up what he wants in order to advance the story.
an episode, like this, for arcane would be realy interesting. what did the arcane characters die for? were any of their deaths pointless? etc. loving the new stranger things content though, even if i havent seen it, glad you are branching out into more of your interests.
the fact that Max got so close to death, Lucas's reaction, the injuries that are permanent, that all hit me very hard and I was so worried. I think what they did with max works and I would have been so disappointed if they killed her. Eddie though, I feel like they added him JUST to kill him. They gave him a rushed version of the arc you explained for Steve.
Eddie was an amazing character, who was demonized for pretty much no reason by nearly everyone.
I'm almost thinking they should do 2 more seasons just to kill of 2 or so main characters (idk), and then let one/two, perhaps El and Mike together or Will who might gain powers, die in the seeies final.
I mean they’ll probably keep her blind but I think her limbs will be healed when she inevitably wakes back up.
I kinda dislike how strager things seems to refuse to switch out the main cast a bit.
I'm okay with not wanting to kill off your main cast, but it feels like they have a jarring amount of plot armor when new characters always end up dying, often due to pretty mild threats relative to other things characters go through in the series. Meanwhile the main characters make it trough some of the most extreme dangers pretty much unharmed (at least Max is an exception to the "unharmed" part).
If you want death in your series, killing off some of the main cast and having side characters take their place is going to be something you'll likely want to do in order to keep the audience on edge.
My personal theory is that Eleven saw nothing in Max's mind because of what Henry said before. When he kills someone they stay with him. I bet that part of the plot involves not wanting to kill Henry until they can get Max's mind back from him.
Ooo that'd be really interesting!!
Still a cop out. To make it make sense, they'd have to explain why Vecna doesn't just snuff out what's left of Max. I guess they could say that it's to bait El into a rematch... but that seems pointless since El wins every end of season fight by screaming really loud. Really wsh they did something more interesting with her abilities
If they go with that plot that would be a fair reason to kill and then somewhat bring her back
@@remus4283 It's not really a cop out if the theory is correct. Henry gets stronger because he absorbs the minds of those he kills. He killed Max (albeit temporarily) so her mind would be in his. If anything the stakes would be higher because they would be killing Max for real if they killed Henry before freeing her consciousness.
@@remus4283 the duffer bros already said keeping max alive wasnt a cop out and that her being in a coma is integral to the plot of season 5. I'm betting getting her concious back into her body might play into closing the gates. Vecna definiteltly has her concious since its brought up twice in the season that when he kills he also consumes taking their memories and abilities to grow stronger.
I agree that max shouldn't have died but I disagree with her having a death scene then not dying. That is what feels like a cop out. The scenes of her almost dying earlier in the season were way better and more meaningful then the fake death. If she actually died then it wouldn't be so I felt. Like, even if in a storytelling perspective it makes more sense for max not to die. Then just don't have a death scene?..
yes, 100% agree, Max needed to live with a new struggle going forward, while Hopper and Steve's deaths would be very satisfying as they would go out as heros.
I think an interesting question to pose when trying to reduce cast size is "what would be a satisfying reason for a person to leave the story?" For example: what if Will convinced Mike that they would be happy together if they could just get away from Hawking? like you said in your train scene video, the agency to choose to leave your own story is powerful and could be a topic worth exploring on its own.
I was pretty sure that Eleven going into Max's mind and seeing literally nothing was a very obvious hint that Max IS dead, but it seems like the duffer brothers really want people to wonder and think otherwise. It's likely her body will be possessed by vecna or something next season.
When Eleven haven't seen Max I thought she was brain dead. There is no other logic for me.
Love that you're branching out to more media!
People are like “main characters need to die”. Ok then. You want main characters that give the audience a great performance to die? Then let’s kill off Steve, Dustin, Joyce and Hopper. Don’t act like this would be “good” for the show. It would absolutely destroy everyone.
The build up to Max's potential death has really great and shocking. I'm glad the way it ends.
But for sure, I feared so much for Steve to die that it really shows how his death could be the strongest of the series.
But I agree that even if there is a lot of "dead, or not lol" moments in this series, it works just so well, like the end of season 3, with Hopper and his letter, heartbreaking. The "find the body scene" in season 1 just destroys me everytime... There was some really cool moments !
Honestly, if you ignore the fact that Max's coma helps set up the plot for season 5, the state she's in is arguably even worse than death. Imagine yourself being so depressed you started thinking maybe you do deserve to die, then get convinced by your loved ones that it's worth fighting to survive, only to then get blinded AND paralyzed. That's dark AF for Stranger Things, so I'm thinking they might let her die at some point in the next season.
As for Hopper, I do think he could die, but in that case maybe they should kill Joyce too? But simply because it would be kinda sad to have all this build-up of her finally opening up and accepting another man into her life, just for Bob to die in season 2 and Hopper to "die" once in an explosion and again for real in some other way. Maybe them dying together would be a better way to tie up their stories rather than just have Hopper's super dad arc end well and Joyce's story to end like "stop trying to find true love, it'll never work out for you".
I won't be surprised if they have Max get saved right before they are about to pull the plug and have her mostly unscathed within a few days. TV shows love unrealistic recoveries.
@@meredithwhite5790 I wouldn't put it past them tbh
one thing i think is over looked is this is simply looking at it from a the character perspective. But from a storytelling perspective, in a show that deals with a lot of danger and death and kids growing up through all this. I think it would do wonders for that story development and fully transition stranger things to a more serious show, which it clearly is becoming. Also for a serious show, with all the danger these little kids experience with little to no weapons or help its kind of insane none of them have died. (that said i'm glad max didn't die, i think she's clearly the best actor of the kids and became my favourite character in this season)
They seemingly just write new characters every season and kill them at the end, while all the main cast have plot armour.
Eddie was an amazing character, who was demonized for pretty much no reason by nearly everyone. Max suprised me a lot with her subtle acting that was on point and her scenes which were hard hitters. Although, Hopper probably should have died in the last season, his stay in a Russian labor camp was very entertaining to watch, and different from everything until now.
I'm almost thinking they should do 2 more seasons just to kill of more main characters, and then let one/two, perhaps El and Mike / Hopper and Joyce together or Will who might gain powers, die in the series final. Max could return blind in season 4, but with powers, and then sacrifice herself, as Billy did in season 3, to finally get rid of her guilt and nightmares! (Hmm, I might be onto something~)
I think death is overused as a device because it's an easy way to conclude arcs rather than having a character persist while being out of the story. GoT is actually a unique example to compare to because it both did it well early on and poorly later, with the first few seasons meting out death freely, only to later have mostly untouchable main characters. Stranger Things was the latter way mostly from the start, so they're in a bad spot now where the main cast feel untouchable, but killing them would just feel like cheap shock value.
Actually, the character that comes to my mind with the death problem is - as you said- Hoper, i think he should have died after seasson 3 because now i dont think that any death scene could be better and also, if theu do it now, it wouldn't be a new feling, the trauma was already explored with Eleven and Joyce so i don't see a way of it being more effective now than it was back then. And his arc in seasson 4 wasn't even that good to be worth it, maybe he could have an important role on seasson 5 but still
I personally think Shireen's death was purely for shock value. Stannis just dies the next episode anyway the same way he would have had he not burned her. Davos didn't need an extra reason to hate Mel and one day of sunshine the sacrifice bought them didn't exactly affect the story.
The only fakeout death i hate is Hoppers. Every way that was framed and executed (both during and after the "death" scene) SCREAMED he died, not just hinted like the other fakeouts. Now he can't die, because it would feel fake.
Keeping Max alive was a good call on their part, because it gives the kids a lingering reminder of just what is at stake. If Max had been killed, they could hold a funeral and properly mourn her, then move on to what needs to be done.
I think that she will be permanently paralyzed, because she will then have to come to terms with being unable to be an athletic "zoomer" anymore. I also think she'll tell Eleven at some point that she wishes she were dead even after Eleven did everything she could for her, driving Eleven's character forward in some way.
Stranger Things is the Duffer Brothers DnD campaign. And it's actually pretty cool.
At first I thought Max should have died, but now that I see the situation in which they put her in glad she didn't and I wanna see what her role will be in the next season
I think her being alive is just as bad as her dying if not worse because of the permanent scars, her being blind and paralyzed. It makes things just as tense. If the show does a good job of not just showing her trauma but the rest of the characters especially the kids, they've been through so much to just be normal. Even if they're going to add humour, they shouldn't use it to downplay the tragedy. They acknowledge the trauma they're all going through. Optimism is the last thing anyone is feeling except it's denial.
Max being broken and in a hospital has a greater effect on the characters going forward than is she died. She can easily pass at any moment.
Steve will definitely get killed doing something brave, probably protecting Henderson. Some sort of sacrificing himself. But they are going to have to do it good because his death needs to be his own and not similar to in any way to Eddie’s death. I hope they can pull it off. To many brave sacrifice deaths of loved characters can undermine the deaths and the characters meaning.
Mike dying would push Will and Eleven over the edge. We could see it used as a way for Vecna to manipulate Will into blaming Eleven for “stealing Mike from him” and put him against the group.
What about Nancy instead of Max? Hear me out. We get those scenes of Max through episode 4 (including Chrissy). But we also get scenes of Nancy acting the same way and are reminded that she still feels guilty about Barb. She interacts with Fred about it and he wants to say something but doesn’t know how. She talks to Steve and he’s like the Eddie/Lucas for her in this situation. She goes to Creel, wants a convo after his vision but Robin or the head guy cuts them off (and she’s worried about herself, not Max, while Robin is talking about the music). Then we have that scene of Nancy and Vecna, and he tells her that “You know what you did (as Barb), but tell Eleven what you see.” She tells the group while they try to call Joyce’s house. When Max volunteers, she tells her no and that she should do it because she thinks it’ll truly avenge Barb.
Nancy hasn’t always tolerated the kids, and was a bitch until she felt sympathy for Jonathan & Mike about Will. But all she could focus on was Barb, why didn’t anyone remember her instead of only remembering Will? Then the scene of Steve talking to her in the van about the future, then later saying she was always there was a perfect set up for either to go.
If Nancy goes, it asserts that Vecna killing a loved season one character, and Eleven going into her empty memories (instead of ones when she was alive) means he’s as powerful as Brenner said. “…when One kills, he doesn't simply kill. He consumes. He takes everything from his victims. Everything they are and everything they ever will be. Their memories, their abilities." It can give Mike a similar story (in season five) to Max’s in season four about overcoming grief, and that it wasn’t your fault, because he wasn’t there to help them. Plus it makes him more vulnerable, and Will proved that he’s always going to be there for him, which ties to the story with Mike, Eleven, and Will. It gives Jonathan, Steve and Mike a personal problem with Vecna and forces them to put aside their differences for Nancy (outside of basically taking over the world). It would impact how the characters react and their mindset into facing Vecna again.
If Steve goes, it’s everything like you said in the video.
I honestly think that Hopper should have stayed dead, and that Dmitri’s message to Joyce should have turned out to be a trick to lure her to Russia so that he could sell her to the KGB, like Yuri ends up trying to do.
Grigori knew that Hopper was the police chief, and therefore would presumably have also known his name, and even if he didn’t share that information with anyone else, there was at least one news article about Hopper dying in the “fire” at Starcourt Mall, so that would explain how Dmitri knew his name, and Hopper and Joyce were presumably on CCTV when they were talking about their date at Enzo’s in the Russian base, so that would explain how he knew to call himself Enzo to gain her trust.
Obviously that would still leave the question of how Dmitri knew where to send the Russian doll, but that’s a plot hole anyway, given that Joyce didn’t sell her house until after the main events of Season 3, and even if she already had her eye on the house in California, she never told Hopper that.
I know that implying that a character is alive only to reveal that they really are dead is very much between two extremes, but I can think of quite a few shows that did so successfully, such as Sherlock with Jim Moriarty, Line Of Duty with Jackie Laverty, or A Series Of Unfortunate Events with the Baudelaire’s parents (although in all fairness, the latter was aimed pretty heavily at people who had read the books, so most of the audience probably knew that it was a red herring.)
It’s entirely subjective, but with Eleven and Max also getting brought back almost immediately after being killed it feels like the only deaths in the show which are both shocking and meaningful are the ones that get retconned. Bob and Eddie are pretty obviously set up to be the super likeable character who gets killed off for the sake of a gut punch, Alexei is a comic relief character who exists for much the same reason, Billy and Dr Brenner, despite both redeeming themselves in their final moments, are portrayed in a negative light up until that point (plus we’re told that Billy is going to die anyway when the mind flayer is killed), and most of the other character deaths, including Barb’s, are just there to establish the threat.
the way my brother and I GASPED when you said to kill off Steve
I’m torn on this. On one hand I’m glad Max survived, because she didn’t deserve to die, and it would have been horrible for Lucas. On the other hand I’m really annoyed, because the Duffer Brothers never kill anyone from the main cast, and when the scene with Max at the hospital popped up it kind of broke the magic for me. It felt like the Duffer Brothers made the story go there and then chickened out and decided to compromise. I really dislike how they kill off new people with nonchalance, whereas the main cast gets put through the ringer and 99% of the time they come out fairly unscathed. It just makes the whole thing feel like they’re superheroes and they can’t die and it kills the stakes in my opinion. It really annoys me because season 4 was great, but the threats are starting not to feel as threatening anymore because I know those twos are too attached to their characters to make them die. But had they killed Steve I probably wouldn’t be complaining at Max surviving like this. Also would have made a great setup for Nancy being targeted by Vecna, with all the hints in this season that Nancy was considering going back with Steve
I agree that Millie's phrasing is a little weird but I honestly don't think she meant that they need to start killing off character's left and right. You even bring up the way game of thrones did death well, and I think that's what Millie was referencing. I agree with her stance as well, the cast is too big and some characters are just boring at this point.
I just generally disagree with the notion that more death = better. It feels like claiming that shows a superficial understanding of what makes a story good. Death is only a plus when it fits an enhances the story and tone. And every single show wanting to be game of thrones will just kill the originality they had.
Killing Hopper would ruins Joyce’s happy ending. Killing both at the same time maybe??
I don’t know if you’ve seen The Haunting of Hill House (or any Mike Flanagan story) but if you haven’t… you must. You’ve made me realise I adore tragedies, and that is both a tragedy and a balm. I have a personal theory that each Flanagan story hits different w/ each person’s own trauma (Hill House - family, Bly Manor - identity and love, Midnight Mass - religious)
If you’ve watched it I’d love to watch a video of you inspecting it beneath a microscope. And if you haven’t I would love you to take yourself to your laptop rn and watch it because you will not be able to put the microscope down after.
You know, I used to think that Max should’ve died. I thought that the ending for her character was tragic, horrifying, and really well-written. A character who’s suicidal and plagued with survivor’s guilt begging for death, only to realize too late that she DOES want to be alive. But it’s too late. And as a parallel to her begging for death, now she’s begging for life. Only this time, her begging remains unanswered.
But there’s a lot more interesting stuff you could do by reviving Max like they did. You have that horrifying moment, and then she comes back with a new perspective on life. She realizes that her life IS worth something to her, even if she’s blind and crippled. And yes, I do hope that she’s blind and crippled. Not because I dislike her, but because that’s an interesting direction for her character. But maybe now she has a deeper connection to Vecna that can help the team fight him. Maybe she has a deeper connection to Eleven, allowing El to basically have her powers in two places at once. And Lucas still loves her, even though she’s broken physically, just like he loved her when she was broken mentally.
They should’ve kept Jason and Eddie alive though. Jason’s death was a lucky coincidence, and Eddie’s death was stupid. Why exactly did he stop running? Was he trying to distract them? They were already distracted.
If Jason could’ve continued on his rampage, and Eddie could’ve maybe survived in the Upside Down, that’d be good. What if Jason fell into the Upside Down instead of being ripped apart, and ran into Eddie? And since Jason doesn’t have a weapon and Eddie does, Jason can’t attack him, and even has to depend on Eddie to protect him? Now THAT would be interesting. Jason would realize that Eddie isn’t that bad, and Eddie would protect Jason despite all the crap he did.
Love your content! I really learn a lot from it:) and very good rewatch value.
I think of Glenn’s death in TWD…
While it was true to the source material, for the show’s purposes it was used as a gimmick.
His death didn’t work beyond that scene imo.
While it did create an impact on other characters in the show, his absence (and Abraham’s, for the matter) made the show much less enjoyable.
His continued presence on the show would’ve been more beneficial to the show in the long run than the shock value of his death.
The remaining characters were largely so awful, boring, & just uninteresting to the point where I lost all interest in the show shortly thereafter.
Season Four was good but incredibly predictable. Because I knew all the pre-established characters were safe and the new characters were introduced to be killed off by the end. Imagine my shock when most of them died.
The killing joke main Barbara Gordon and made her into a dynamic character
No series needs to be Game of Thrones. If anything, series should actibly avoid being Game of Thrones, because when you star with death being important and then turn it into a gimmick, then it's just hollow. GoT used to be a world where consequences matter, even from the smallest actions, but the showrunners kind of forgot that after a while, it's clear they are not writers and they just wanted to be done, and that's a shame. I respect the Duffelt brother's desition to stick with their vision of their story.
I will be so fucking sad if steeve dies it would be amazing for a story tho
While I do agree that Steve's death would be one of the only one's that could be narratively satisfying, I also feel like it would be a huge subversion of some major tropes to NOT kill him. I think it would be groundbreaking to have him survive and end up moving away with Robin, at peace and excited to figure out his way in life with his best friend. Because so often the narrative is that a character is tragic and might as well die if they don't have a succesful romantic plot and it very much feels like Steve is fitting that bill. And I would personally hate to see that actually happen, because it perpetuates this idea that you are a tragic character purely because of your lack of a romantic relationship AND it perpetuates the idea that friendship is inferior to romance. This whole notion (amatonormativity) is fucking exhausting for so many people in so many ways, and it would be so nice to see of all people a character like steve, who starts out as The High School Heart Throb, realise that for now having Robin and his friends is all he needs and that he has an entirely life ahead of him to figure out the rest. I know it's a tall ask, because, again, society and media are hyperfixated on romance, but god I'm begging the duffer brothers to give Steve a happy ending that does not include romance or death.
They made Eddie’s death very jarring because he randomly decided to sacrifice himself even though he and Dustin were out of danger. Felt like the writers wanted the shock value.
Yeah he basically achieved nothing with his sacrifice and it felt so stupid. Billy was an example of how to do self sacrifice right, and Eddie is how to do it wrong. Feels like they basically kill him just so that someone died that season.
Agreed. The annoying part was that they treated Eddie's death like this noble sacrifice when it was really more of a suicidal blaze of glory (which considering the life in jail or on the run he has waiting for him in the aftermath is actually understandable). But if they were really determined to kill Eddie off then I think they could have done it much better than having him run out into a swarm of demobats to "buy more time".
I'm honestly really tired of having people like Bob, Billy, Alexei and Eddie dying every season. You could have assumed it was a one-off with Barb in season 1 but nope.
@@williamapple7705 Same its a cop out
@@optimisticnihilist3417 They could have fixed it simply by stating that he was doing it to make sure the demobat swarm didn't follow them through the portal to Hawkins. Makes perfect sense why he would need to distract the swarm longer, and adds even more irony to his sacrifice to save the town that hated him. My headcanon is that this was his true motivation, and he didn't tell anyone because he knew Dustin would follow and end up dying too.
like you said, some people disagree because they wanted a main character to die, but i'm glad they didn't kill max. i don't think killing her off would've sent a good message AT ALL considering she's a kid who's been dealing with s*icidal ideation (+ vecna in vol 1 kind of represented max's ptsd, survivor's guilt and depression) and was just starting to get better at the end of episode 4 and realize there are people who care about her and that she has things to live for.
episode 4 ended with such a powerful message. killing her off would send the message that no matter what, no matter how hard you fight, you could never overcome your depression. and that's just a horrible message, no matter how "tragic" the season is supposed to be, the writers still have some kind of responsibility in my opinion and overall i just feel like it's wrong to end her arc like that as i didn't feel like her story is finished and she still has a lot of potential.
(+the duffers said max being in a coma instead of dying is extremely important to the plot of season 5 and not just them "cheating death" so i assume she'll play a pivotal role in defeating vecna, maybe from within his mind)
also i know some people find el "reviving" max unrealistic but if you think about it, it kinda is. much more than hopper's survival in s3 at least. el used her telekinesis powers to basically perform intense cpr on max pumping her heart until it started beating again on its own. and we already know she can do these kind of stuff. remember when she made the bully from s1 pee in his pants? or when she got the chip out of 001? el doesn't "suddenly have healing powers", she just restarted max's heart like a defibrillator does lol. that's why max is still injured and in a coma, she didn't "heal" her, just made her heart beat again.
This video scared the fuck out of me because I haven't watched 4 yet. I heard it was a great season for her but I don't think killing her would work at all.
@@ursidae97 this season was definitely max's. we go a lot deeper into her character and sadie does a phenomenal job portraying her. if you watched the video/ read my full comment, you know max didn't exactly permanently died but it's... complicated. i'd definitely recommend watching. i think her arc this season was very relatable especially for anyone who ever experienced depression/PTSD.
This was something I hadn’t considered, but it’s a really great point. It perhaps gives the message that a suicidal person should be the sacrificial lamb to save others. That because they don’t think their life means as much as others, that makes it true. It would have destroyed her arc of learning to appreciate her friends and life again. Thank you for making this point
@@thehutch1674 It's weird seeing this post and then seeing the Star Wars side where people wish Reva had died. I think this is due to how characters are written and Max definitely did have a great season but she survived the first time. Rules of film dictate that the second time should've been permanent like Game of Thrones. You can't get lucky twice otherwise you become a Sam Tarly. He really should've died in the season 8 episode 3 Night battle.
I don't think this is what Millie meant but the way I interpreted her GoT comment was basically how there's too many characters and not enough story to go around. There are definitely some characters who do feel like they no longer serve a purpose to the story but because they're part of the main cast, the show refuses to kill them or even place any meaningful stakes on them. At the end of the day, what I want is for all of the characters to have meaningful arcs and to be important to the overall story.
An interesting take I've seen online is how Eddie's death kind of serves as Steve's death without actually killing Steve. I think that Steve and Eddie are actually very similar characters, being cool but also losers in their own ways who both find their bravery to protect the others. There's this huge set up for Steve's death but it feels like the writers were like, killing Steve is too sad so we'll kill Eddie instead. It's frustrating to me how the writers killed Eddie when he's way more compelling than some of the other main characters.
I trust in the writer, they probably have something good in store, but I can see your point about Steve resembling Eddie. Making Nancy wonder whether she should be together with Steve - who's present, as opposed to Jonathan, who was distancing himself for a year now -, THEN killing off Steve and making Eddie take his place in the team might have opened up some interesting team dynamics. Jonathan would have gotten a redemption arc in his relationship with Nancy, Eddie would have been challenged to grow into Steve's shoes without having his experience against the Upside Down, etc. Eddie also had some positive traits that Steve did now, like his undeniable charisma and theatrics, which would have served the story well.
He's strawmanning. GoT didn't become bad because "me want more death", it got bad because of the quality of the writing declining resulting in the deaths no longer developing characters or intensifying the plot. GRRM had a point when he said that you shouldn't put your characters in situations where they should die if you're not prepared to kill them. It ruins the stakes each time a character survives impossible odds. In fact, season 7 and 8 of GoT were criticized for the comical amounts of plot armor given to the main cast. So idk what this guy is talking about.
Interestingly, Steve was actually almost killed off in Season 1. I think it would've been during the fight with Jonathan, but they decided not to. I'm glad they changed their mind and I think the way the producers are doing things is fine
"It's frustrating to me how the writers killed Eddie when he's way more compelling than some of the other main characters." THIS! The whole killing the new likeable character thing is getting very old very quickly. Meanwhile, some of the main cast have been dragged around with little to no plot attached to them just because they are part of the core team (Jonathan? Mike? I mean Mike had some purpose this season confessing his feelings for El when she was fighting Vecna, but it still felt forced). And also while I do get the arc they were going for with Eddie, I don't feel that a) he was shown to be cowardly enough to warrant a hero redemption arc (like sure, he was running away, but only because the whole town and police were on him while he was innocent and his innocence was almost impossible to prove - other than that him saying he was a coward was just spoken exposition rather than actual scenes) and b) his death even did anything for the group. Like for point b) he could have just gone up in the real world with Dustin, because ultimately it was Murray burning the Demogorgons/hive mind that saved Nancy, Steve and Robin. There was no need for Eddie to buy more time at that point - there was absolutely no need for him to be killed off!!
I also think the fandom has a lot to do with it. So many people don’t want Steve to die, which yes would make a more compelling story for his arc, but everyone wants to see him have a happy ending. It’s easier to kill off those characters such as Eddie who are pretty much built to die. While game of thrones showed no mercy in killing characters, none of the deaths meant anything to me. Then again, I didn’t care for that show whatsoever so my opinion on it is moot point. There were way too many characters and way too many subplots for me to care and be able to follow along and it got too confusing so literally none of the character deaths had a huge impact for me. Stranger Things is so different but I’d imagine the Duffer Brothers still have value in the main characters. But we’ll see in season 5.
you do make good points as to why steve should die however i present my argument : it would be sad :(
I think he deserves to persevere, because he has shown that he can change. He changed from a self centered jock to a caring protector. I want to see him develop even further.
They're not good arguments. Theres a billion different endings for a brave character besides them just being killed off.
@@yoknom He won't. His character wasn't developed in the slighest in season 4. Nearly all scenes with Steve were him pining for Nancy or being there to drop silly one liners, and we've already been told a million times her dumping him was what kickstarted his development. There was no necessity to regress to that instead of keeping moving forward. It's the same reason why Mike's character has become so irrelevant to the main plots, bc he solely exists to push Eleven's arc forward at this point and I'd hate Steve going down that same route (besides being the comedic relief ofc)
@@blurrylinesx8039 Agreed, teasing Steve and Nancy getting back together felt out of place for both of them. Plus as kind f-ed up as the message would be, it kind of would fulfil the prophecy, I think Jonathan made, that she would rebel only to settle down as a housewife with a lot of kids like her mother, as that is in some sense what Steve wants. And that prophecy was made to call on Nancy to prove she wasn't her mother, whose has be shown not exactly happy with her life. Though frankly I could see Steve as a great house husband, maybe part-time guidance counsellor or in some childcare profession, despite his protestations he seems to enjoy being around kids and taking care of them.
I had exactly the same thought 😂 I was like very valid points made in the video, but hear me out, Steve's the best so please no death.
personally I like they kept her alive. The ending was bittersweet, but I believe that Max's lesson this season was hope. As someone who has been in pretty dark places lately, I think writers should not kill off characters that are trying to learn that, as that would just be depressing.
And exactly this would make this death so great. Because it IS so depressing
@@dummheitswarnung5246 i think they don't mean it in a "oh that's so sad" way like how Steve's death would be, but in a "this character has struggled all season with suicidal ideation and even longer than that with self hatred" killing her would stifle the arc, if she died then her sacrifice would not mean much because then the bad guy just does what he set out to do. No conflict resolution, no hope, and it could serve to push Eleven and Lucas's arcs but then Max's death becomes a narrative device that's not more impactful than what happened now. For us it's plot armor but in the narrative the characters don't need a "oh shit the stakes are real" moment, they already KNOW it. If anything killing a severely depressed child only tells us that killing yourself is ok as long as it is for others. And many depressed people already think that ending their own lives is already going to be a net positive in the world. Killing Max is a meaningless death that would null the effect of the running up that hill scene, and THAT is depressing
@@mochhhhee The characters don't need to be shown the stakes are real but the audience does
Excited to hear your thoughts on this. New subscriber here!
In my opinion, Max dying would've been a very unsatisfying way to end her arc. For me, it would've been such a terrible message to send after her actively choosing to live and realizing she doesn't want to die. Exploring how her injuries affects her and the people around her (not to mention the possibility of her playing a key role in defeating/infiltrating Vecna/Vecna's mind) is much more interesting than killing her for the 'stakes'.
THISTHISTHISTHISTHISTHIS
Totally agree with this!
I said this once and I'll say it again. Character deaths have been seriously overvalued by a lot of people online now. A death is a very important part of a story and has to be handled with the utmost care. You can't just kill major characters just to raise the stakes. There is so much more you can do with a character instead of them dying, that can also be tragic and shocking and there's other ways to end their arcs. More deaths does not equal better story.
THIS!!!!
EXACTLY! If they killed her, like he said it would’ve been mostly just to raise the stakes and such. And more importantly, like you said it would’ve been a terrible way to end her arc. Vecna represents her depression and death itself, and she chose to fight that. She chose to live, despite her dark thoughts. That was such a powerful, moving moment, and if they had just thrown all of that out the window and been like “Well guess what? No matter how hard you fight, you can’t win!” that would’ve sent a horrible message. I think it was better to end it with the fact that even after all she’s been through, literally getting her bones snapped and blinded, and metaphorically nearly succumbing to her depression and dark thoughts, she’s still technically here. She’s still breathing. That’s a better message, and a way better way to take the character overall. Totally agree with you.
Eddie’s death felt forced like they wanted the shock factor of death so they sacrificed Eddie 🥲 he didn’t have to die he just could’ve kept running he didn’t even need to keep distracting the bats 😭😭
EXACTLY! Literally my thoughts while watching Eddie’s death for the first time was “did that just happen???”
the main problems lie in the trends of character deaths, which is the reoccurring death of the newly introduced side character. every side character death seems to build a stronger wall of plot armor around the main cast (which is too big) and it lowers the stakes for the show. Not to mention the fake out deaths, because even if one of the main cast appears to die (hopper, max), they come back anyway in very cheap and unimaginative ways. This season needed main cast deaths, both to break from the trend of likeable side character death and to raise the stakes for season 5. If you kill off some of the main cast in the final season, it's not going to add any development or stakes, it's just going to conclude their character. Hopper's death in s3 was perfect and made sense for the character, it also gave eleven and Joyce a lot of development. Max shouldn't have died in the first place, after eleven interfered with vecna, he should have gone for Jason to complete the gate instead or something.
Totaly agree with this. The stakes apparently keep becoming higher, yet the main cast is able to just jump over that fact and can survive everything that is thrown at them only bc they are MCs.
Exaclty. But I actually think killing off Max would have much more impact on the characters and would probably be one of the saddest deaths in Tv history BECAUSE she went through this super hard time. Just letting her live because she‘s been through a lot is just stupid in my opinion. Because this would make this death even more sad. She had the perfect set up for her death.
I agree. The theme of Stranger Things has always been about STRANGERS coming together for a common cause. We like to see that altruism rewarded through new friendships, bonds, and triumphs. Not people slaughtered for their kindness. That might be more realistic in the real world sometimes, but I'm not watching for realism. I'm watching it to see the best humanity CAN be. Plenty of characters die in this series. And their deaths always mean something. I don't see why we need more of it for the sake of it.
it is not for "the sake of it". it is because a lot of the main characters in the show have incredibly boring and uncreative plot armor that makes them survive literally the dumbest most dangerous bs when they should definitely die or get hurt a lot or caught or whatever. i get that stranger things is not a "realistic" show dealing with the upside down or whatnot - that doesn't mean though that the very much realistic real world it is set in has to abide to those fictional fantasy rules of unbelievable plot armor. it gets old and boring fast.
Yeah plenty of characters die.
Just none of the main cast.
That may be how you enjoy television, but a lot of people prefer some sense of realism and consistency in the plot that has been developed in the show in order for them to be immersed in the story. People are not complaining because they want death 'for the sake of it'. I would hope people want meaningful character deaths that wrap up their arcs or have plot implications (better yet both). The reality is there's only so many times you can cry wolf on your characters before people start to lose interest in them. If Harry Potter suddenly had the ability to be immune to all magic, the story loses its sense of danger, and that's the issue.
We should have ended this season on a sense of dread, and I imagine that was the intention. We have a group of indestructible teens, one of which can resurrect the dead. Vekna should be running the hell away from my perspective.
@@meggers1771 guess it comes down to personal preference and where you get your realism. 🤷♀️ It’s not unusual for the main cast to not die in an ongoing series. Harry Potter is actually a good example because NONE of the main crew died. Not even Malfoy. It was all secondary and tertiary characters. That didn’t make the story less meaningful though because enough side characters did die and we were left to wonder HOW the main crew would escape.
Stranger Things is the same to me. Each season new characters are introduced and there’s tension around which will live or die (Barb vs Robin vs Eddie vs Billy vs Murray vs Alexei). And when the main crew DOES survive they often end up in a worse situation where they have to undergo character development that helps the team. (Ex: Will and Hopper) So the tension isn’t “will the main crew die” but “how will they live”?
Idk it’s balanced enough that I still can enjoy the story. Though I wouldn’t have minded if Hopper had died tbh.
@@RoseEyed You don't need death in a story for it to feel impactful, that is fairly clear to anyone. Many great stories don't cover death. The problem is establishing stakes in a universe and ignoring them. In Harry Potter, the three main characters can use magic. Most of the main cast of stranger things are normal kids in the 80's. The two aren't comparable.
Having the main characters all survive un-survivable situations so consistently towards the end of the season was just bad writing. If you are able to suspend your disbelief to a degree it didn't impact your sense of realism and therefore enjoyment of the episodes that's great, but that point is fairly unarguable. If you can present established reasoning as to why it's not, I'm open to hearing it.
I am on board with everything in this video except when you said "kill Joyce." Not only do I not see value in that, I don't think they can set up a good arc for it in the one season we have left. Would love to hear a more detailed explanation on what you're thinking here.
Agreed
I really think the Byers will stay alive. Not sure about the others
@@cinemidomidusunsel idk about Johnathon bruv
@@LesbianWeedBrownie he has the least possibility of dying. Fandom is not even invested in him, and the killings are mostly planned on how much impact they are going to make on the audience.
I don’t want Stranger Things to be like Game of Thrones and kill off characters every episode but there are frustrating trends with its character deaths:
1 - The likeable new character getting killed off each season (Barbara, Bob, Alexei/Billy and Eddie) makes these deaths really predictable and loses some impact
2 - The killing off new characters and then bringing them back (Eleven in S1/S2, Hopper in S3 and Max in S4) reduces tension and makes the stakes for the main characters less because we know they won’t die
3 - The possibility of a character dying but surviving - I’d not call this plot armor but it’s really annoying how the main characters always seem to be in a difficult situation and survive, which while is done in a way that’s possible, it just makes the stakes for the main characters lower.
I think they should either have the guts to kill off a main character that’d end their arc in a satisfyinf way or not have situations where it’d be a good opportunity to kill a character or where they’re likely to die cause it just makes it so frustrating. You think they’ll finally kill off a main character and then they don’t. I think the issue lies that they don’t want to get rid of a beloved cast member or they’re too scared of pissing off a fanbase by having a fan favorite die even if it makes sense.
I agree, the writers are acting like I did when making a story with legos. Nobody that I (representing the fanbase) liked would die even though I would kill them but then they would come back and etc. While clearly there are deaths, they are usually meaningless while Max's death would have been a huge event. Not to mention that if Max came back to life, how is the gate from the upside down to Hawkins STILL created. Everything would make more sense if Max died.
@@timoplaysclash, Max died so therefore the gate was created and then Eleven brought her back to life. Honestly I’m glad Max didn’t die considering it’d not make much sense with her character arc but they need to stop teasing character deaths
I agree here mostly, except on one point. Well, two points collected into one point. I think killing Hopper at this stage would not work, precisely because he already got a fake out death. The problem with fake outs is that once you pull one off with a character, it becomes that much harder to make an audience believe the real thing or feel the oomph of the real thing. Additionally, Hopper's "death" at the end of S3 became just another "let's do something awful to Hopper" moment that the show loves to do. So, if we dragged Hopper through multiple forms of torture, loss, emotional trauma and physical abuse just for him to then die...that'd feel really underwhelming to me on the same wavelength as picking on Max all this time just to kill her. I think Hopper's a character where him getting the happy ending and learning he can just have it would work better. Steve, on the other hand, yeah, I don't see a real future for this kid that really works and a big sacrifice play could be very powerful. Especially toward Dustin's arc which has become largely about how he absorbs different role models of manliness (Steve, Eddie, etc). But I feel like a lot of these fake-outs make it much harder to legit kill the character off at this point. Even ones we know were fake, like Will. So...yeah.
I feel like Steve’s sacrifice death has already been done with Eddie. Eddie is what Steve should of been, but it felt like they were to afraid to kill off Steve so they did it to Eddie instead.
But if they can actually pull it off with a dead body and yeah a lot of gore it can motivate eleven to defeat vecna because stranger things is a all about motives.
@@PrincessLioness I think they did it with Eddie because it was more fitting. After all, he would have needed to live on the run, because he was still hunted by the Hawkins people.
I would add to that, that it would just be another lost parental figure for 11. Her bio mother denied and practically lobotomised, her bio father unknown, her first father figure spent most of her childhood torturing her for various reasons and then eventually died, she thought she lost the first father figure to show genuine concern for her in s3 and grieved that, only to get him back. And we haven't really seen Joyce become a maternal figure on screen, just the start of becoming one. So killing him proper would feel like rubbing salt in the wound.
Also speaking of Joyce, killing Hopper would be killing another of her past abusive-ex partners leaving her alone again. So her arc becomes every time she finds someone she is happy with, they die.
Exactly. I feel like killing off Hopper in season 5 wouldn’t be nearly as impactful narratively for his character due to what took place in season 3. If we hadn’t gotten that fake out I would be much more for him dying in season 5 to save eleven and complete his character arc. But they did a fake out and now it would feel significantly less meaningful especially considering his letter scene in season 3, like we already mourned him, if it were to just happen all over again it would make the ending for season 3, along with his arc in season 4 almost entirely pointless.
when you said "Steve should die" i cringed so hard because thats exactly what i was thinking during s4 and i really don't want to see him die. but just from a character development standpoint you're totally on the money. it'd be his grand resolution (but absolutely break me personally)
He is the best character in my opinion and I hate how much it would make sense in the story
to be fair i'm pretty sure millie was sort of half-joking when she said that, i think it was a little teasing jab at the duffer bros for adding in new characters every season but hardly killing any off
Yeah this ^ Pretty sure she was just making a glib joke because of how many people were in the group photo, using a reference to the show most known for killing its characters. I'm sure she didn't actually want these friends and colleagues around her to be killed off in the show and not come back
i disagree that people should die more for no meaning but i DO believe that some should if it fits their arc as you put it so in a nutshell i agree with your opinion on the matter we shouldnt use death as just shock value when its not needed it should be more meaningful to us and the story
My problem is less that Max didn't die and more that she did and came back. Stories don't need to have death, but if they do they should respect it. If you kill a character, commit to it. Bringing them back usually undoes more than it adds. It's a cheap fakeout. If they didn't want to remove Max from the story, they should have just opted to not have her die in the first place.
I think there's could be an interesting thematic element between 11 and 1 here. 1's plan was completely centered around death and the way that his powers could cause and use death. 11 being able to reverse death serves as another interesting contrast between the pair. There's a lot of risk with giving someone the power of resurrection (the end of Star Wars episode 9 comes to mind, and Rinne Rebirth only worked once in Naruto), but capable writers could make it work.
Exactly!! I feel like it would have also bean more realistic if El had immediately started thinking of what she could do to help Max and jumped into action (since I feel like that’s usually how she goes about things when defending her friends) keeping her body stable until help arrived but not being able to repair anything thus leading to Max’s coma. But I guess maybe they had to have her fully die in order for vecna’s curse to be complete and open the portals
In theory Eleven like... gave her CPR using telekinesis or something?
This deathtricking is at least still less confusing than when they killed off Jack Sparrow (not in Stranger Things bruh) and then brought him back from the end of the world lol
They needed her to died “for a moment” so the portal could open
Exactly. This whole „no u wont die now“ is sooo lazy and stupid
What about killing Jonathan? He seems to have run out of story potential in S4, being reduced to "Will's stoner brother". (I would actually argue that he ran out of story potential the moment they paired him with Nancy.) And that could have a lot of potential impact for Will and Joyce. They could even do an interesting inversion of Joyce's role by having him die to save her.
Maybe the trouble is the coma, having her be "asleep" (like how coma is portrayed) after all that, kinda makes you feel a bit cheapend, like, we KNOW she's eventually going to wake up and be ok, it'll follow the trope, so you know, that after all that despair, nothing of permanent value will be lost, and it wasn't shown in a way that gave us hope, just a kinda wierd pause.
I think that she should be awake but disabled by Vecna's curse, she should be either blinded or chairbound, so we can feel the consecuence of the defeat that was the ending of this season, but she is still alive and can fulfill a supportive rol instead of just being an inanimated object next season.
This!!
I dont trust Duffer 1 & Duffer 2 to handle a disable character at all
YES she should be blind they even have the movie friday thing so imagine next season her being blind and Lucas describing what is happening to max that would be beautiful and sad and make you think ok she didn t die but her risky move of using herself has consequences because she is ok next season, yeah coma its very bad but after the coma she is ok as nothing had happen before that feels weird
She will most likely definitely be blind. You saw her eyes and they were completely milky white. I don’t think she’s coming back from that
@@alejandrocervantes3624 and why not
My main problem with Max's "death" is that they had it both ways. They both "killed her" (squeezed all the emotions out of grief of the characters, of the audience etc) and they got the relief of her being alive. They left the suspense too long for me, they had too much out of the death and so bringing her back to life feels CHEAP.
Deaths feel cheep, stakes feel fake. There is no genuine horror in this show because we know that if a character gets too much development they'll die and we instinctively don't get attached. If a main character is in danger we don't even flinch because we know they don't have the guts to follow through. I didn't believe for a second hopper died and I didn't believe max died, I was more angry when she was revived than relieved because I was HOPING they'd prove me wrong but they didn't, they doubled down on the bland overused formulae that sucks engagement out of every narrative it touches.
People are taking Millie's opinion so literally. When did they kill off any character from season 1 to the next seasons after it? NONE. So in a general sense, I agree that the writers need to kill more characters. The main reason is there's so many characters and they can only focus to a small amount of characters. Therefore, there will be other underutilized characters who barely even have a purpose like Jonathan, Mike, Will which supposed to be main characters but barely had any screentime. They can kill them of OR kill those characters who already served their purpose like Steve and Hopper. If they did this, they can stop introducing and building characters just to kill them off at the same season like Eddie, Bob and Cherry Slurpee Guy. And I'm not only talking about S4, they should've doing it in the earlier seasons.
I love Stranger Things, probably my favorite show atm but yeah it's true that they only kill side characters (RIP Eddie The Banished) but I agree with what you said, you can make things "death-like" more interesting than death itself.
If they would have killed Max, she'd be gone and that's it but they left her broken in a state which you are not sure what's even left of her, on comments and reactions I didn't see many people mention that when Eleven goes into her mind at the end, it's just a void, as if she's not even there, finding out what that is it's more interesting to me than just having her die.
I think as a character, Steve has so much to say. He doesn't deserve to die narratively speaking for the sake of a gut punch. He has to prevail so he can be a beacon to all the people that can relate to his everyday life. Aside from Max, He's more relatable to Gen Z than many people realize, and personally speaking, I wouldn't kill him off.
I’m with you, personally think they’ve teased his death each season too much that killing him off in the final season wouldn’t be a surprise & would feel like a cheap emotional gimmick. If they Kill any of the main cast off which I don’t think is necessary at this point, it should be Nancy, as her death would hold the most weight as it affects the most characters.
@AESTHETIC BOII I never said she needs to die, none of them need to die, but if they go down that route Nancy would be the most impactful to the other characters. And come on dude turn off the caps.
@@funkygibbons yes it would affect Mike, karen, Jonathan, Steve and Robin
@@funkygibbons I'm kinda with you here as not only would it hurt the characters emotionally, it would also be a way to sort of end the love triangle that sprung up during this season.
I’m glad that Max survived, cause if she didn’t, then the whole scene with her in Dear Billy would be pointless. It’s about running toward the people that care about you and to not give up. And if she dies anyway, then it just kinda invalidated that message.
I think that Max's maiming scene would have been better if El didn't magically revive her at the end, but they managed to just pull Max through to the hospital. It would have made it more of a maiming scene than a death scene, which would have been more interesting, while also NOT giving El the power over life and death because that's... not quite a good idea.
Killing Max would have been idiotic and made episode 4 meaningless
I disagree with this but I do think keeping max braindead but alive is a great idea
@@moriahmars1462 if she's gonna wake up. Sure... If she remains braindead for the rest of the show... Not really
I agree with most of it BUT I don't think when you kill a character you're "losing them forever for that scene".
The death has repercussions, in a way, a dead character is still a character, as their death and who they were still influences the world and other characters. You touched on that on your video about how they "fixed" max when talking about Billy.
I'm in two minds about whether or not they'll kill Steve. He's a fan-favourite and one of the more relatable characters in the show. His arc has been fantastic and I don't think they NEED to cap that off with his death, but on the other hand it's been foreshadowed constantly since the end of season one, and he really does keep throwing himself between the others and danger.
I get what you mean. But, i just feel like never killing off any main character never raises the stakes and doesn't allow me to take the villians seriously. If vecna and the mindflayer are these super powerful creatures how come they can barely catch a group of teenagers that don't even have superpowers? I feel like just killing off even one of the main characters would make the audience feel like this villian is actually a force to be reckoned with, and things are serious and intense.
Oh don't worry, Duffers have said no one is safe next season... It's the last one after all. Or at least it's like their Endgame, except none of these characters have extended franchise contracts :P
I kinda hope they kill Mike :x but I think they'll kill Will...
I'd compare it more to Harry Potter. I didn't feel like anyone except the main three were safe in that book.
I'm glad they didn't kill Max but that's just mostly because I really like her. however I am glad that they had veccna break arm and leg and blind her, because then her being saved isn't as much as an 'oh she got saved and she's completely unscathed' just like last time it's really putting in the steaks that she accepted when she decided to be bait.
Do you mean ‘they’ didn’t kill Max?
@@littlewolf4177 the writers/directors ya know the show people.
@@littleratty4364 are you a writer/director?
@@breademperoar9613 oh I just realized that said "I" didn't kill her lol but no I'm not one
Yeah ok I just edited it lol
I honestly feel like, Nancy would be a good death, I feel like her story is getting too involved in an almost, childish love triangle arc, shes the type of person to charge into action, super ambitious, what if she gets too into her head in a moment, getting herself killed? Like, I feel like, her and eddie shouldve had opposite fates (edit: I feel like eddie is a character that can be developed alot more, with the town hating his guts, everything that happened to him, his sense of vengeance because of chrissy, there was alot that couldve been done with his character in genuinely interesting ways which would shake up the story, well... Nancy, right now TO ME, is running a bit dry).
My sort of logic is, it would almost be a punishment for the cast, but mostly steve and jonathan, it feels like their entire character revolves around romance but take out the romance aspect? Theyre forced to develop, forced to work together, forced to see theres more to life then just a literal love triangle, like the whole season 4 jonathan college thing, i feel like its a good conflict, but it feels so futile in the face of LITERALLY VECNA, if nancy were to die, it would be like, a giant slap to the face of the cast that there are REAL consequences to this, Mike would have to face real grief, theres been a lack of nancy and mike scenes in the first place, so imagine how devastating it would be to not have been there, to be sitting on the side lines,, he'd be vulnerable, instead of just lying to his parents all the time, he'd have no choice but to face the grief within himself and with his family.. really, toughen him up, solidify his motives. Instead of just introducing a new character for one season and killing them off, it'd be a real, genuine punch to the gut to how real and how dangerous this is, because with everyone surviving in these circumstances, it just undermines the actual danger OF the circumstances theyre in, vecna barely feels like a threat, but yeah, I have no idea how that would be written into the story, theres tons to be argued here and lots of holes in my logic, but i just think it would be a good death if done right because it would really force the rest of the cast to develop and humble themselves
One of my biggest takeaways from a literature class that I took was the line, "the most important thing a character can do is die." What you said fleshed out this idea very clearly, especially concerning the hypothetical Steve death scene. When used properly, a character's death can offer something to the story that no other action can.
I'm glad they didn't kill max for the exact reasons you presented - new dynamics with setting and character. (that being said, there's always the possibility that she's totally brain dead)
I'm skeptical about Steve dying tho, I feel like if Steve was to die they really shouldn't have killed Eddie because if they both die, ho boy is Dustin gonna be struggling with depression for the rest of his life, two father figures and close friends dying - usually when he's the one coming up with plans hence making it easy for him to blame himself... yeah, don't be mean to Dustin please, he's easily the best character in the show for me
i would've loved it if steve died when he got attacked be those bat-thingies. eddi and the 2 girls could have such a great moment with him dying right after they found him in the upside-down. for me eddies death felt completely wasted because there wasn't any relevance in regards to the plot
I don’t like this idea. Dying brutally and also without a purpose seems fucked for this show
Why do we as a people always anticipate and almost crave death in media nowadays? It's quite concerning, actually, people want characters to feel real, to be able to connect with, yet people yearn for tragedy? Who says that death must be used to progress a story? How exactly would Max dying help El search for the strength she needs to defeat Vecna? How, exactly, will it rekindle Lucas' relationship with the rest of the gang??? A person isn't defined by a tragedy. Stranger Things is not a show that uses death to progress story. If anything it hinders the story. The only death which in my opinion was actually beneficial in the long run was Billy's. Barb's death was oh look Nancy's friend died but tbh it could have been any random kid Nancy knew. Bob's death, though tragic and done really well, only served as something that triggered Joyce's PTSD which in my opinion would have hit harder if in the flashbacks she was thinking about Will, yknow, her son, but whatever. This season, Dr Brenner died, Eddie died, which was tbh uncalled for imo, and a bunch of other characters we didn't really know enough about to care. The only one in that list that really made sense was Dr Brenners death but at the end of the day we all know that shit was rushed and wasn't given enough attention. (tbh Eleven's whole arc this season was good but it was kinda overshadowed by the stuff happening in Hawkins). And so if Max had died, so, so what? The viewers see an obviously suicidal girl actually die, after saying finally that she wants to live? People actually wanted to see that? People actually wanted to see Max die a horrible gruesome death which wouldn't have in anyway sent any kind of message whatsoever other than, 'lol she lived once but cause she went in again she had to die even though this whole season this girl has been battling between whether or not she wants to live or not?' I just don't get it. Max fought to live, and she deserved to.
And btw Millie lowkey sound jealous that other cast members are overshadowing her and its not a good look. Let's see you die the next season 🙄
Exactly this. It's like people that only want death for the sake of death in media when there are so much better ways to raise the stakes.
And the seemingly complete disregard for Max's character arc this season. Killing off the girl that was suicidal but in the end wanted to live until her last breath?
The issue, from what I understand, isn't that people want characthers to be dying left and right, it's the way that the show is going about the few deaths we have.
As you said, none of the deaths we had so far had any deeper meaning because they all follow a pattern: 1. Characther gets introduced, 2. The show make us like them, 3. They die. Bob, Eddie, Alexei, they were all like this; it's gotten to the point where if some charming new face comes along, you already know they're doomed from the start. It erases all tension.
But that's when it comes to side characthers. When the threat is upon the Main Cast™, the show uses fakeouts so that they can get the emotional damage of the characther dying, but not the consequences. Exibit A: Will mid Season 1, B: Hopper at the end of 3, and C: Max at the end of 4. It's fine once, but if you use it all the time, it starts to feel cheap.
Overall, this results in the word "death" meaning next to nothing in the context of Stranger Things and, when the main stake is supposed to be about dying while fighting a big scary monster, suddenly the monster is not that scary, because you know it can't really do anything. This show doesn't need a bloodbath to have stakes, but it needed to use the threat of death more sparringly. If Max's fakeout was the first main shock we got since S1 fake-death-Will, far less people would've wanted her dead.
Putting in my two cents here, I don't think death is what completes a character's story (though it is in real life), and you shouldn't need to defend against plot armour accusations by killing off main characters.
Your show doesn't always have to mimic reality by being able to kill off anyone. This is fiction! Give your characters armour if you want! If people don't like it, they can watch/read something else. This can become a problem if you first establish that anyone can die, but one or two tragic deaths per season of a loveable character, in my opinion, isn't (even if s1 tried to establish it with barb.)
Conversely, people who are left behind in their worst state for the rest of their lives happen in real life. Isn't that interesting? You can leave a character hollowed out with grief and with very few attachments left, and you can just end their arc like that. In some ways, it can be more tragic than the heroic, 'guns blazing' death scene they could have had and I haven't seen it with a main character yet.
I think I'm just going to link people back to this video whenever I see this conversation pop up. Because YES! To everything you said. Bad use of death can hamper a story. If you are going to bring in death, it needs to make sense and work for the narrative and character. Max's death is not the "right" death for how they built the story / character all season, and would have resulted in the show losing more than it gained. I get some people are annoyed with how the show has handled death up to this point, but the show's past dealings with death shouldn't be a reason to force a death in a place where it wouldn't work very well.
I think they should've killed hopper, not max.
I was worried whether max would die or not, but I didn't want her to, nor did it feel like that would resolve the plot in a nice way. Hopper was set up to die though and not killing him immediately tells you no matter what happens through the plot of s4, he will survive lessening any action he takes.
I'd also be happy to see Steve survive all the way. At this point I don't think it would make meaning. He has since even season 1 put himself in some of the most dangerous roles and in even season 3 his main priority is keeping everyone safe. If he was going to die, it should've been in season 3 at the latest. by season 4 he is the hero/protector.
I wish they had killed more characters and kept people like Bob and Eddie around (or made Bob a Russian spy like they sort of alluded to). I love most of the ST cast but I do think it would have been more compelling with a more evolving cast, instead of everyone living but insert Murphy, Suzie, Robin, Erica, and Argyle as a part of the group. And the fact that the main cast hasn't really changed and I was able to mention 5 new characters since season 1 with significant screen time, not even including the side characters that get killed each season, shows how inflated the cast has become.
I do think hoppers death shouldn't have been revoked, although season 4 does him well, it was a fake out that I personally didn't like. If he'd have died there it would have been a satisfying climax to his character imo, not killing him would have also been fine. But "killing him" and him not being dead is just unsatisfying and makes the death scene seem undeserved for me.
Killing off Stranger Things characters would hurt the show's identity for sure. What Millie Bobby Brown didn't realise is that Game of Thrones had a formula for meaningful character deaths. GoT sets up well known character arcs, which suggest endings for those arcs we got used to by other fantasy titles, and THEN injects realism into those stories, leaving the arcs abruptly. GoT makes itself look like a fairy tale but turns out to be a history lesson. And that's why - at least at the beginning - it was completely okay to kill off people representing different political ideas or sets of values. It showed us that our moral judgement about those characters will not result in a hero's journey path or a redemption arc, these deaths pushed us to think realistically about the relationship of morality and power. It wasn't just simply cruel either - as Joffrey's low made him a politically target just the same as Ned's unrelentless, even naive pursuit of justice.
Stranger Things has this completely different thing going on. This show builds upon the legacy of Stephen King and a couple of well known thriller / horror titles (like Elm street, Freddy Kruger's name even came up to show his similarity to Vecna, being an untouchable killer, who can commit his gruesome acts from an invisible world). Stories like this often have a tendency to become mindless slasher titles, as you have a short period of time to kill off several characters, and those characters do not have time to develop, so most of them are two dimensional stereotypes we know from our own life. Stranger Things, however, is a series, and as such, has more time to develop it's characters. The show almost always begins with introducing stereotypes but slowly builds context around them. Chrissie, the queen of the high school, wasn't just a random cheerleader, she was lost, she had flaws and trauma, she was relatable, and was open to connect people outside of her circle. James wasn't just your average football / basketball prick either - he had some narcissistic tendencies and placed himself over the law, but he actually had a caring side, he was understanding and also a great leader.
What Stranger Things does is that instead of closing down people, putting them into boxes that can not be opened, it expands upon their context and explains their morality through their backstory, giving them both flaws and virtues. Stranger Things has a thing for deliberately disrupting stereotypes. Killing off characters just for the sake of culling the cast would diminish the resources the writers have.
I also agree with leaving Max alive. If Max would have died, it would actually had been a cheap copout from her rise arc. She had a bad life, we all get that, maiming her makes it actually so much worse. But now there's nowhere to run for her. She can not physically escape anymore. She has to be there, she has to be vulnerable and finally face her fears. (As she began with being open to Vecna.) To Max, it was so much more cruel to leave her alive - and that's the point. This is a thriller. It needs to be hard on the characters. Killing her off would have given her a closure. She doesn't get to have one just yet. She needs to earn it. And that's torture for her, and we are here for that torture. The story is driven by the undeserved cruelties of the real and the fantastic mixed together in the plot.
I don’t think she’s entirely wrong, Villains are difficult to take serious when they can’t deal major blows, with 4 seasons of no real major characters dying, vecna doesn’t even seem like a real threat, as we know the power of friendship group can beat him
I really want to hear what you think on Eddie dying. I didn't feel that his death was necessary and when I finished the show I felt like he died just to say they had a character people cared about die, he did complete his "I didnt run away" arc but I felt like their was so many ways to finish that arc and that a death scene from a more "ripe" character like hopper or Steve would have been more impact full.
He'd definitely be in jail if he survived. Then the campaign to prove his innocence (with Murray's involvement because you just know he'd be all over that) would have been either a B-plot in season 5 or the premise for the Duffers' teased Stranger Things spin-off.
@@jeffreycarey1680 I'd still watch the hell out of that tbh.
@@jeffreycarey1680 Or alternatively, Murray sets Eddie up with a new identity and puts him into a sort of informal witness protection program. Then the B-plot would be Eddie struggling with the fact that he's essentially running away again while the others are back in Hawkins facing Vecna. Then in the latter half of season five, Eddie comes back to Hawkins knowing full well that he's throwing away his only chance at freedom. Maybe he's learned some crucial piece of information while in hiding as well. Lots of emotional payoff with Eddie basically going on this revenge quest against Vecna for ruining his life and killing Chrissy in front of him, and also coming to the rescue at the eleventh (heh) hour.
THEN Eddie dies (because lets be honest the alternative is life in jail and universal condemnation for a crime he didn't commit), preferably actually saving people in the process. But before he does he's had time to touch the lives of more than just Dustin, and so his death carries a much greater emotional weight for everyone. Also goddammit Wayne deserved better than to hear an abridged version of his nephew's death from Dustin and not even get to bury the body.
@@optimisticnihilist3417 As would I.
@@optimisticnihilist3417 that. Is. Amazing. (And I totally wish it was what happened🥺)
I agree with you even tho I would die if steve and hopper had died or die also max dying just wouldn’t work out because as duffer brothers said her situation has a big role in season 5 so it was planned for her not to die for the storyline to go on
I used to want to kill off a bunch of characters and now I have a hard time coming up with logical reasons for death. Which led me to revive at least 3 diff characters. For these cases I realized the only characteristic they really had was their death and also their particular set of skills would help move the plot forward.
Am I one of the few people who saw Ned Stark as the Mufasa of his clan, so knew he was going to die from the start? I feel like the brilliance of all the deaths in GOT (until arguably Tywin but definitely Jon) is that the story made you forget that the dying characters weren’t the heroes of the story, they’re just who the main characters wished they could’ve been saved by.
Tywin’s death makes more sense in the books. Look up Macabre Storytelling’s video on Tysha. He explains how omitting Tysha, Tyrions first wife who actually loved ruins his arc. Tywin took away on of the few people who loved him, which is why after learning the truth Tyrion kills him in a rage.
@@PrincessLioness Small world, because I love Macabre. And love how he was the first to point out that that was when the story really started to fracture. Dragon Demands is probably right about how the TV treated Tywin (too kindly), but Macabre's solutions were brillaint.
The Tragedy of Tyrion is one of the stories that made me give George RR Martin (and all adaptations thereof) my full rapt attention.
Its not about "useless deaths" or "ending character's arcs because they are running out of ideas", its about stakes being higher and higher each season, every new villain is supposed to kill everyone around them, all the side characters, yet throughout the past 4 season not a single main character dies, because they are, idk main characters?
I mean like, chrissy dies in a second, fred does too, patrick aswell, but when it comes to a main character, nancy or max, vecna decides to suddenly not kill anymore and just straight up chit chat because they are what, main characters? Or in max's case, eleven is now able to pump blood into her body artificialy (which she never did before) only so that a main character doesn't die.
In a show where everyone dies, its kinda stupid that the 6 kids, 4 teenagers, and 3 adults keep on surviving for 4 seasons. It gives us a feeling of safety or a feeling that the villain isnt all that scary as we thought he was when he killed chrissy or fred. It feels unrealistic and stupid that they are able to fight against dimensional creatures that snap bones at their will of mind, a huge parasyte 50x times bigger than a human, and a walking predator. If everyone is in danger and everyone dies, make it so everyone does die (including main characters, not just the side ones).
I think stakes should be brought up, and how the tension of a show can be ruined when there are so many instances when characters are close to death, but they don’t actually die. There are tons of moments in Stranger Things when a character is saved last-second, and there’s been almost as many fake deaths as real main character deaths.
I don’t think the main problem for the show is that it has too many characters, or that it wouldn’t be able to have good enough reasons for specific characters dying. The main problem is that the stakes are at about the same level as Marvel movies. It takes all the suspense out of the show.
So in my opinion, more mice.
yeah that's a fair take
Agreed. Cop out deaths is one of the worst things you can do for tension. While I don’t like to see characters die, I am under the opinion that once you kill a character you should commit to it. At the same time, I think it’s important to add meaning to the character’s death. Have it change the world (in some cases), the plot and the characters around them. If nothing changes, why in the world did you kill the character?
Makes me think of a book trilogy where one significant character was killed at the ends of the two first books. Not only did it affect the reader, it also had an impact on the main character and was important for her motivation and character development in the following books. It also raised the stakes significantly. Only two characters had died, but by the end of the third book, you knew that characters you and the protagonist cared about would die. Personally, I dreaded it, but I wouldn’t change it for the world.
In the end, kill with purpose.
@@mayab2099 what's the book
@@alecocothunder8277 The series is written by Mark Lawrence and is called the Book of the Ancestor. The first book is called Red Sister.
It is basically about this girl called Nona who was sold as an 8 year old. After being sentenced to death, she is saved/taken in by the Abbess of the Sweet Mercy convent and is allowed to enroll basically. What is important to note is that they train assassin nuns. So Nona and the other novices learn how to fight, how to brew potions and how to use the lesser and greater magic systems (if their blood allows them access to the magics). Oh, and the reason Nona was sentenced to death is that she (almost) killed the son of a powerful family. Now they want her dead.
Hope you don't think I spoiled too much, but that is basically what the series starts with. Everything mentioned will stay relevant throughout the whole trilogy, but there is more to the story that will be introduced later that would definitely count as spoilers. Some people say that the first book can be kinda slow, but that is honestly where a lot of the groundwork is. Characters, world building and such. Personally I found reading about Nona, other characters, and her relationship with them a joy, but I am a sucker for good character work.
Anyhow, I could talk about this trilogy for ages. If you think it sounds interesting, I definitely say give it a try :)
No we dont always need main characters to die. Idk why everyones obsessed with a show/movie killing them off. George lucas was never a fan of it either, in the OT, all the main characters survived and it was still great.
Theres also a massive misconception about game of thrones. It didnt just kill characters off randomly. Especially in the books (which are 1 million times better than the show) read the books, you aint gonna see characters die off left right and centre. The show became a joke and shouldnt even be used in any kind of analysis post season 4 tbh.
I think the only reason people think max should have died is because she took SO MUCH damage that anybody would 100% have died from those injuries.
I agree with what you say about steves arc but disagree with the end result. Why should he die? Why cant he discover his bravery and choose to live a peaceful life in spite of a "cool" one? A character becoming braver doesnt mean they have to die. I get that sacrifice is the ultimate act of bravery but theres other acts that dont need to result in death. Also im confused, what about steves monologue indicated that it meant he should die? A character explaining what they want in life isnt always a sign that they're gonna die. Its become a trope yea but its not always the case with every character at all. I definitely disagree with hopper to. He doesnt need to give his life for El, he can just give her a life. That to me is more meaningful. Providing her a full normal life rather than just dying for her. All that would do is just make Els life even more painful, why destroy two lives for no reason whatsoever? This is a man whose life has been constant suffering for years, now he finally has the chance to live a good life whilst providing that to someone else to, killing him would just be cruel. I would argue that every character arc imaginable can be successful without a character dying. Not saying main characters shouldnt ever die, just that theres a hundred ways, besides dying that can complete a character arc, no matter what that arc is, death is just an option.
An understated negative of having a lot of death scenes imo is that it makes your series REALLY easy to spoil so if you don't build up a proper entertaining story around the deaths it can be a huge problem
I think the fact that Max finding the strength and will to escape Vecna and live in episode 4 would have been really soured if, feeling stronger and more emotionally prepared with her friends at her back, she returns to face him again only to die.
It's a really uplifting moment, made all the more powerful by the clear metaphor for trauma, grief, depression and even suicide.
I think it's kinda gross in the narrative to have her face that again and lose. Injured, scarred, traumatised sure. But to just die? Nah, it kinda shits on her arc.
to be fair, she did really die but then she was brought back
I absolutely agree on your take on this, and as much as I don't want Steve to die because he's one of my favorite characters I do think it would play well into the story. I'll still be heartbroken for a little while if/when it happens though 😅
I think that deaths need to happen so it doesn't seem like there is no sacrifice in fighting evil. Stranger Things should kill main characters in season 5 and it would make up for being too soft in prior seasons. I think that the expectation that all our favorites will live and then having the power to upend this in season 5 could make it more scary. I would say that Max is safe, and by extension Lucas is safe, Mike is probably safe, Dustin probably is safe, but Will might not be. His brother Jonathan might not be. Steve might not be too. Robin I think it's safe (not definitely), Eleven might not be safe. Joyce is safe I think, Hopper isn't safe but I tend to think he is, Maury could die and I think that he might. I base this off of the foreshadowing for future character development that might point to death versus life and that the Duffers don't want to be overly cruel (so we won't see Hopper AND Will die and crush Joyce's entire universe, Max won't wake up from her coma just to see that Lucas is dead, I think that we can be confident of those sorts of things)
The Duffers dont need to change a thing. The show is a global phenomenon for good reason. Keep doing what you're doing. Dont try to be anything else.
She’s right, no main characters die. If it doesn’t feel like the characters are at risk and the stakes really aren’t that high. Even though some of those seams were nailbiter’s, he had to know they weren’t really gonna kill anyof the main characters.
It is a cop out and it cheapens the show
I want to listen your analysis on Eddie's death and Eddie in general, because for me it was one of the most amazing characters of the show!
I also feel like them not leaving hopper dead ripped the giant emotional rug out from under of our feet. It immediately soured the taste of the letter at the end of S3 for me.
this video just calmed my mind. i have been thinking about maxs “death” scene ever since i watched it, like you said i couldn’t except the “yuuuuup”. her final moments were beyond horrifying, i cant think of another character dying with sm regret, even a villain. i agree with another comment saying that max is probably trapped in vecnas mind, so season 5 will most likely be about saving her. i really wasn’t expecting hawkins to take such a fat L overall, but it’s probably redemption time soon
So I think the value of death in this series would be valuable in the way the characters change and interact with each other. Even just one death no matter who it was would have a lasting impact on the characters and it would be cool to see
My read on millie's comment was that she wants more attention on her character, more time and opportunities to flex her acting chops, and having too many other characters for the audience to care about is taking that away from her. It wasn't a deep comment or legit literary critique, it honestly just sounds like she wants more attention.
As for deaths in stories, I agree they need to make sense with someone's arc and serve a purpose, but I'd add that I always hope deaths will avoid cliches - I'm glad steve and hopper didn't die bc men sacrificing themselves in battle to defend their loves ones feels cliche at this point. I want Hopper to live to be a better person and father than he has been. I want Steve to live to continue embracing the caretaker role he's been thriving in (btw he hasn't cared about being cool since mid S1 like at all) and find fulfillment that way.
Dying is easy. Living well is hard.
Intresting👍
That is literally not true cause if you read that whole interview she volunteers for her character’s death
🎶”Running away is easy, it’s the living that’s hard.”🎶
Completely agree with everything you said but I feel that Steve doesn’t have much going for him. He wants love in his life not just the kids. Something personal, because it’s hinted his parents didn’t give him much attention growing up. Thus, wanting to be popular and have the cliche high school life. Either they write him off with someone and make him move on from Nancy and develop character, or give up what he wants in order to advance the story.
I'm liking the Stranger things content. A video on why people don't like Mike anymore would be cool.
an episode, like this, for arcane would be realy interesting. what did the arcane characters die for? were any of their deaths pointless? etc.
loving the new stranger things content though, even if i havent seen it, glad you are branching out into more of your interests.