I also feel for him but I also see him as a "sucker" for being sold on "spray foam everything" is the best thing you can do. Most builders and tradesmen with decades of experience are telling a different story. This video alone should send the message that "spray foam has it's place but is not a total insulation solution"
Im in SW MO and had my house spray foam insulated in 2019. It took 3 try’s for conditions to be acceptable for the spray foam applied. The company drove 100+ miles all 3 times. After watching this I feel so lucky that I had a great company that knew what they were doing.
If you have an older combustion system it has an exhaust and you know that because it's got two holes in it instead of one you have to exhaust that to the outside through the foundation. Most of the newer ones only have one hole on the side and you do not have to exhaust those to the outside but it's always good to check the manufacturer specs on your HVAC equipment and your hot water equipment to make sure your venting all your equipment properly if it needs to be
@manleynelson9419 every combustion appliance must be vented to outdoors with the exception of a ventless gas fireplace which is never a good choice. Not sure what you're referring to, you're saying exhaust but maybe you're confusing combustion air. But every combustion appliance needs that as well whether it's piped or ducted in from outside or the space is adequate enough to supply enough, but with tightly sealed homes the space will not be adequate
I live in a 120 year old house. I have 2 co-workers who had each of their older houses spray foamed. They seem to like it and say it’s a big help with heating. I’m not sold. If you want to run a wire or have some unforeseen issue with something…it’s all under foam. I’ll stick to to the old insulation and put on a sweater.
Yeah like what if you have a roof leak and you've sprayed that stuff underneath the roof in the Attic you never know you have a roof leak until the whole thing is rotted
That poor guy will never be the same. My heart goes out to him. If he reads this, just remember, you can live in another house, don't let it destroy your relationships or yourself - those things are much, much harder to rebuild.
I can't believe those that build a home trust the builder 100% to say, Me being in the construction field as in HVAC Comercial installer and see other trades at work on the job, it's pretty crazy how new home owner have no idea how somethings are push over on them
HVAC contractor here: that return in the bathroom is probably pulling things from the stacks and other areas. I’d get them to remove that and additionally verify traps in the mean time.
Also the on demand gas water heater vents outside but draws combustion air from inside. That will put negative pressure on the house which will pull air from any other source. Pipes, traps, walls, attic, anywhere to replace that air.
Stories like this are why I don't want to use any spray foam when we build. I know it can be done well, but when it isn't.... oh man is it a nightmare. Not worth the risk, in my opinion.
@@keekeemyfirstcat8410 lol, that too. Also, it's a lot easier for a non-professional like me to install pretty much any other type of insulation, and do it correctly the first time.
As a home builder over 47 years I only used spray fo on 2 homes 15 years ago. I will never consider even using spray foam. Listen to these guys and come up with your conclusion. Stick with the established traditional insulation methods installed with patience and attention to detail not cutting corners in a hurry during the install. We don't sub contract the insulation work. When you want something done correctly do it yourself. Too many "arm chair contractors " out there or "TH-cam " contractors. You notice the comments shifting blame to others There are also insurance companies that will not cover houses with spray foam applied to the underside of roof rafters and roof sheathing with the intention of "condition attic " use traditional batt insulation and baffles. Look at the problems with ridged insulation with stucco finishes and condensation issues ? Finally look at ICF and conditions concerning termites and homeowners insurance denial STAY AWAY FROM "FOAM " PERIOD !
I somewhat agree but I think spray foam has it's uses, places where "traditional" insulation methods are difficult or impractical. Encapsulating a crawl space, low pitch hips and valleys or on an exterior steel structure. The problem is the spray foam industry has tired to sell their product as a total solution and the reality is, it is not. Just look at the idea of spraying foam on the underside of roof sheathing. Just looking at it, you know nothing good will come of it long term.
I hear Termites associated with ICF, but not one video on YT that proves it. Plus, the same system used for wood walls to keep out termites is used on ICF (metal flashing). Hmmm....
There is a peel and stick membrane that goes over the ICF to keep the termites out. It’s a non issue if you use the correct products. Spray foam allows you to have cathedral ceilings without roof and eaves vents. This is super beneficial as wind and rain can drive moisture into the roof vents and termites can walk right through most vent screens. Regarding roof leaks and trapping moisture between the roof deck and the foam, use a high quality peel n stick roof membrane and it’s a non issue. Maintain your roof.
In my new houses Im currently building Ive opted to not use any insulation in the solid stone and timber house and to use very minimal insulation, floors and ceiling only, in the wooden framed house. If your house is built right from the start its not needed or very little is at all. Fiberglass batts or the foam board are good options. Years ago when I first began researching the insulation phases of my build I immediately got turned off by the spray foam idea for a few reasons. One was that I built my houses the ancient way and learned that you never spray foam an older house because they were meant to breath. Its one reason they dont mold or rot away. And so that was the main reason. The other reason was it was clearly some type of toxic man made chemicals that required a hazmat suit and breathing filters in order to handle and install. Immediate red flags to me. Its basically toxic waste your pumping into your house where you live and breath. Perhaps even worse than treated lumber which is a no no. And then there is the cost, difficulty to install, the mess, etc. etc. It didnt take me long, within minutes to understand that spray foam is a seriously bad idea. Out here where I live it can get -40 and with 90 mph gusts on top of that. But those days arent everyday. The cold is manageable even with NO insulation! A little bit of bundle up on the most severe nights and a little bit of open window fan for the rare scorcher days and other than that its actually very nice. You get acclimated to it to such an extent that I can no longer physically stand ac. Its like torture to me now and I never use it anymore. Not even in the car. My point is that most are doing things all wrong. And not all that glitters is gold. People now are so quick to jump on the latest scheme coming down the pike thinking its going to be great, but if you look closely you will clearly see that any so called advantages of living in this modern life of linear thinking hardly ever if ever outweigh the negative side. Its as if everyone became completely stupid, lazy, useless and ignorant to even the most basic things all of a sudden. Its weird to me. And scary. People scare me really bad now. You never know what awful and weird thing theyre going to say or do at any given instant and why. You just know its probably not going to be good. Most dont even believe in God anymore or live for Him. Terrifying stuff what comes next as a result of that most basic, simple fact. And yes, God has everything to do with everything. From the smallest most insignificant thing to the biggest most grappling issue, God most definitely has everything to do with it all!
I live in an old raised house and could never get the wood moisture level low enough. So , I bought solid block insulation and screwed the blocks to the floor and filled the gaps with canned foam spray. Now my floor is no longer cold in the winter.
The water heater intake being open to the crawlspace is a problem. He has a tight house and a tight crawlspace and that intake will create negative pressure in the crawlspace. That negative is likely stronger than his radon mitigation system, but in any case the two will be fighting. The water heater intake *NEEDS* to be coming from outside, and the retrofit must be certain to follow the manufacturer's spacing recommendation from the exhaust.
@@fedorp4713 Should he have piped the intake right next to the exhaust pipe? That would allow the CO to get sucked right into the intake. Seems to me the intake should be piped to a different side of the house. Therefore, it would be a bit more than 15mins and $20. But I agree with your point, the labor and material cost is a few extra peanuts on top of the total install cost.
@@JerryCalvert-x9u As you haven't read of radon, maybe you haven't heard of google either. But that webster's or oxford dictionary on your shelf will work as well.
@@JerryCalvert-x9u A quick google search will answer your question. But hey, if you don't care about the health of the people living in your home don't bother.
This fellow and his wife obviously put a lot of thought into building their new home. Who would have ever thought there would be a problem with the insulation! The interior finish carpentry, woodwork, floors, doors, wood shutters on the windows, etc. look absolutely beautiful. I sure hope they won’t need to get to the insulation in the exterior walls. 🙄
So many simultaneous problems here makes this house a call back nightmare. Lets break it down: 1) properly sealed crawl space 2) improperly vented gas water heater in crawl space 3) Improperly design hvac system featuring returns with improper location and sizing. 4) Defective spray foam mix and bad application causing foam delamination and excessive outgassing. The delaminating spray foam is likely contributing to condensation and mold growth. All issues must be fixed to restore house health. Priority One: Finding a good lawyer.
7 inches of closed cell is absurd. Look at the diminishing returns for thicknesses for the foam. Spraying too much at once is a huge no no. The homeowner and builder got fleeced.
It’s a code compliance argument. Not everyone knows how to navigate code and most definitely building officials are self taught on the job like SPF mechanics.
@@ognewb no the u factor goes way down after 4 inches. Like way way way down. 4" = great. 5" = barely better. But because the way code is written in some places you need 7".
SPF has an R val of approx 4 for open cell and 6.5 for closed cell, per inch. So yes, to get code R val minimum for climate zones outside gulf states you’re looking at up to 12.5” thick open cell or 7.5” closed cell. Any argument that spray foam’s R-value is automatically higher because it slso delivers airtightness is false advertising. R value and airtightness are 2 completely different things, each modeled separately in the planning phase as shown here: LIES to Sell Spray Foam Insulation using Fake Energy Modeling Code Compliance Reports th-cam.com/video/RHqs7DQxX30/w-d-xo.html
I've been in study mode for the last year researching various materials and approaches to construction. To boil a lot of the lessons of that research off - keeping things as elegantly simple as possible is the best way to manage performance, cost and risk. I'm an aerospace engineer by education and for part of my career in practice - I similarly learned that a strong indicator of a good design concept is that as you continue your analysis additional benefits are uncovered as you go. The opposite is also true - the deeper you dig the harder the digging. To test this, ask yourself the following when choosing a material/technology/method: 1) How hard is XYZ to execute? 2) What additional steps/materials are necessitated by XYZ? 3) What are the risks over time with XYZ? 4) How readily is failure detected? 5) What are the consequences of that failure? 6) What is the cost and inconvenience of resolving that failure? As an example, early on in my research I was really excited about SIPs - mostly because you have a shell up really fast. However, getting the ridgeline details right is critical and the ridgeline is where nature wants to drive vapor. Failure is covered by finishing materials so you can't see it until it's really bad. If you have funky rotten SIP panels along a ridgeline it is NOT readily fixed without a lot work - only to end up with a solution likely higher risk than the original. Spray foam has a lot of the same risk for the same reasons.
I recommend you look at thermomass CIP product which is their cast in place product. I pour the foundation and above grade walls all at once with 4" of polyiso with a 8" wall and 4" cover wythe. I use Helix 5-25 micro rear. They have great PDFs showing how to use it in a home. Most of the time, it's used for infrastructure and warehouses. I throw in Xypex but I'm moving to just applying the Xypex after the pour.
Been a contractor 46 yrs the only foam I trust is blue Dow styrofoam but even with that how will I ever know when they change the formula or process with that. With what labor cost today be careful what you use
@@nobodyinnoutdoors Rockwool does not burn. Rockwool does not absorb water/moisture. Rockwool never saggs. Rockwool has the best noise dampening. Nothing is better than Rockwool. EVERYTHING is cheaper than Rockwool.
Can rockwool be used in both walls and ceilings? I’m not at all familiar with it. When I built my house 25 years ago I got the Pink Panther fiberglass insulation. At the time I didn’t know there were insulation options to choose from.
Whats radon got to do with spray foam? And CO2 for that matter after a couple days for off gassing. Neither CO2 or radon have any odour. I think you need to follow the VOC path which could find impropery cured/installed product. Use closed cell foam.
CO2 is an good indicator of lack of ventilation. VOCs will definitely build up in a sealed box, and if any of the leaks are at exposed soil, you can be pulling radon into the home and not venting it.
I'm thinking under certain conditions the power vent on that water heater can't overcome an intermittent negative pressure condition. (Certain doors closed, range hood, clothes dryer)
One further safeguard is to make sure your spray foam installer is using materials that are within their stated shelf life. Typically, this is 1-year for part A (The Isocyanate) and 6 months for part B (the Polyol or Resin). You can check the labels on the barrels for the manufacturing or expiry dates, or ask the supplier to provide you copies of the material certificates for each batch number. Do not accept any past due materials unless they have been tested and recertified by the original manufacturer and this is documented, and only if it is for a low risk or limited scope use.
I would be terrified to buy a new build these days. Your story is one of many. Contractors intentionally not following the drawings and bill of materials. Cutting corners and changing out for cheaper inferior materials. Inspectors signing off as if everything is ok when its not. Nobody is held liable and the owner is stuck fixing and paying the bill. Builders these days are horrendous.
We need a list of the Contractors involved and these people need to be exposed! They ruined this guys home and most likely many more. Corbett can you get a list of all parties involved to prevent others from dealing with the same issues?
@homeperformance, I bought a new home, no spray foam, and very high co2. Its very tight, and there is also radon. Im thinking the co2 could be soil gas because it is proportional to the radon and goes up with rain. It actually went up when i sealed the sump pit so there would have to be another path somewhere. Currently adding a radon fan to see if it helps. I was wondering if something offgassing from the construction is giving a false reading for co2 or some material in the new homes these days other than foam is offgassing co2, as mine has standard fiberglass/cellulose insulation. My other house has a very old basement with sump pit and i used 4" pipe with minimal elbows and distance and a fantech rn2sl fan. It dropped radon from 20 pCi/L to about 1-1.5 pCi/L. But it was very drafty so apparently co2 was less of a problem. If the crawl space has concrete flooring, you may have to search in the crawl space to find the source of CO2 if it's soil gas, and put the radon fan there. But if the entire space is covered sealed and has corrugated tubing running to a fan, that should remove it.
Dang Corbett … you’re a godsend! You’ve definitely helped influence some good design decisions on my future home build. Once the drawings are a full working set, they are going to you first! 😊 My first takeaway from this video is, contractor / installer error(s) is what lead EIFS to so many lawsuits and having a bad name. That could eventually happen to spray foam. I wonder if spray foam was always part of the design for Todd’s home? Or if it was a change during construction? Is it a wood framed home sitting on a crawl space? Only a CMU stem wall for the foundation, right?
Shouldn't the MSDS list all of the information needed to determine the type of of resin used? The MSDS should be available online on the companies website?
I feel for that guy. He’s not the first one I’ve heard of whose homes have been ruined by the crap. I would never spray the garbage in my home. There are so many better options.
As a canadian, the checks on spray foam are appreciated, but every single one of these steps that we need to take, make the option to expensive for so many. You don't need a secondary company to do it, you just need to have the company who is spraying come back and test. There is no need to create additional bureaucracy to implement the same results.
Liked the video. Don't like the seemingly incompetent and dishonest conduct of his insulation contractor or the foam manufacturer who has simply stonewalled *their own paying customer*. Kind of pointless to also express a dislike for the insurance co. as that entire industry nowadays operates as legalized and highly-profitable fraud. They've gotten lawmakers to mandate that we carry insurance even though there's obviously no real mandate that legitimate claims are honored. Absolute ghouls.
“Purchased by the GC” - lol - they might get a settlement from the GC’s insurance company, but getting a dime out of the GC is wishful thinking. Most will file bankruptcy in a heartbeat when faced with a situation like this.
Worked on two separate jobs where the floor joists were completely rotted out because of spray foam. Both floors had to be completely rebuilt. An entire house and two large commercial bathrooms in a big restaurant. Major major damage. I will never use spray foam insulation anywhere
I have a new home sitting currently as it is tied up in a lawsuit with the spray foam company. The longer it sits the worse it gets. 10 months into the lawsuit and no end in sight.
@@DonnieBakers-f5f off ratio foam that is dripping , shrinking foam that has pulled away from the wall. Very bad install. Several hundred spots where you can see the roof / wall sheeting.
@Firedizz That's terrible! Looks like this house had same problem of shrinking foam from rafters causing heat and cool to get in plus increase smells from off ratio foam. What is your home remedy after 1 year? I also have suffered due to foam installation problems in a home
Spray foam is not the issue here! This is a very tight house (1 ACH50) because of the spray foam. The problem is that there is a moisture problem from the crawl space because it was not sealed properly, and the water heater is back drafting. Sure it wasn't backdrafting when you tested it, but did you have the kitchen, bath, and radon fans on when you tested it? You also never mentioned the humidity levels. Sure he is running dehumidifiers, but it is still not enough. Open cell foam shouldn't have been used, but you need more dehumidification to dry it out. Solution: Properly seal the crawl space and connect the water heater inlet air to the exterior.
I am sure the humidity is controlled if he was measuring all factors to figure out the increase co2 and smells. Two dehumidifiers in crawlspace in the video plus one in attic
British home owners must avoid spray foam insulation because our mortgage lenders refuse to offer mortgages on properties with it installed. This is because it prevents the buyer's surveyor from properly inspecting the underlying structure. You'll need to remove the foam before you can sell.
The HVAC pressure problems can also be addressed by cutting vents in the interior walls. Obviously in the same stud cavity and for non-insulated walls. And offset high vs low to avoid site lines and minimize noise conduction with the air. If noise is an issue, a half batt (no facing) can be put behind each vent so "soften" the drywall opposite the vent.
This is why it's critical to understand what brand foam they are spraying. So glad I went with Icynene closed cell which is water based and it's been great!
Rock wool, i would NEVER spray foam anything on roof. Vent home twice daily. Tyrn on cooking fan open window run for at least 30min. Akso open door or window when running dryer. 21:43 return in bathroom! Never, thats one of the most contaminated rooms in home. Auto bath fan and air circulation with ceiling fan 24/7. No mold.
Why would a radon system or plumbing vent impact co2? And oh man, I had a very similar situation though less severe from our foam retrofit. The cheapest way to carbon filter is the grow tent filters from AC infinity or similar coupled with a large blower fan. Positively pressurizing the house with a ventilating dehumidifier on constant mode helps some too. Part of why I’m about to deploy a massively oversized ERV, and considering ducting the AC infinity charcoal filtration.
Radon system would be for ground related Co2 increases in the home or to rule out ground causes of Co2 increases. Plumbing vents that are completely blocked by water act as a P trap so no sewer gases escape from the roof dry vent stack.
@@SteveJanoskiI wonder if the sensors were eCO2 so they extrapolated co2 levels from VOC, which would be elevated by the foam, soil gas, and sewer vent situation…
@@nathanbarry9534 Possibly if the gases were on the same wavelength as the sensor NDIR (Non-Dispersive Infrared). The gases would be: Hydrocarbons (e.g., Methane, Propane). Alcohol Vapors (Ethanol, Isopropanol)Nitrous Oxide (N₂O). CO₂ by detecting infrared light absorption at a wavelength characteristic of CO₂ (typically around 4.26 micrometers). However, certain factors or gases can cause cross-sensitivity or interfere with readings
After removing open cell can you spray closed cell in its place? I'm fixing an install problem from a contractor and I believe given the area thickness it would be best to add CC. Can the two foams touch??
Like all things there is good foam and bad foam. Quality wise. Also, due to epa regulations some of the better performing, for safety reasons, chemicals have been outlawed in the US pushing production overseas. That combined with knowledgeable and skilled installers vs bad installers means it's a crap shoot. It can be done safely and properly. Open cell is never the right solution for a house as it will absorb moisture over time. The 1st time heard someone putting open cell in walls, decades ago, I thought this won't end well. Buts it is much cheaper so people who don't know any better do it anyway. The contractors know better they just want money and don't care about the long term.
Finally putting a fan in your vents in the crawl space is obviously important to mitigate this temporary toxic issue but it's defeating the entire purpose of a encapsulation system if the encapsulation is done properly
@Corbett, Miami FL attic here with only soffit intake vents, no attic exhaust vents (damn builders put no ridge vent). Flex ducts and main trunk on attic, AHU in closet down the hall (at least). Attic insulation with loose fill fiberglass. Duct insulation was full of mold, what Jason from GotMold calls "leopard skin", as seen in that video of the guy who went into litigation with the largest building company. So... Question I read that you can 'bury' the ducts in closed cell foam to prevent condensation on the flex ducts. What do you think?
Im just now going through this now. I have videos up to show what I did. You need to replace the leaking ducts fast. Install new ones and they won't sweat. I just tore ceiling down and got whole new ducts, trunk, complete a/c system. Good luck. You don't want to breathe moldy air.
@@nowthatsfunny1 - thanks for replying sir - so you put closed foam insulation? If so, a DIY project? I just watched your video but cant figure out how the saga ended. My soffit vents are all functional, there is plenty of daylight coming through, and insulation is not blocking. The problem is that 'cross ventilation' from soffits on the south to soffits on the north is, in my humble opinion, not sufficient for heat/humidity removal. I need a ridge vent, or worst case, some mushroom/turbines. Does your roof have ridge vents? how do you exhaust? My GotMold results for the attic were "Moderately evident", with Aspergillus being 6x than the outside sample. I incinerated the old Flex ducts and put new ones, yes. We mastiked the crap out of every junction, and used my Topdon infrared camera to verify. Main trunk was OK, so I just wiped it with Concrobium. I have one trip left to attic hell to air seal those problematic recessed lights. Also installed a thermo-hygrometer, and here is where I am struggling. Indefectibly, the flex duct surface is ALWAYS at dew point. Unless I bury them I closed cell foam, I dont know how to avoid this problem again. Or I could get a ridge vent, but my roof is clay tiles 22yo, so I dont know if this is wise at all. Dont know if ridge vents are even possible with my roof shape.
I’m in Western Canada and I had installed close cell spray foam to 4” inches in the 14 inch I joists and 2 inches thick in the 2x6 filling the remaining space with blown in fibreglass. No vapour barrier needed and house is warm in winter and if you close the windows cool in summer. I only used 4 inches of foam because deeper than that you don’t get as much r value and you fill the remainder of the space with blown in fibreglass
@@Jules_73 Closed cell is a vapor barrier. open is not. You can do closed, wait a while then open to get the vapor barrier and the thicker foam at a lower price and not have issues, but you have to monitor humidity (which can cause mold in any home that is sealed up well, regardless of insulation type) I've seen 8 inch thick black mold in the traditional fiberglass.
@@fhuber7507 Fiberglass is an antiquated system that will fall down in the cavity over time and fail. It's all about the thermal mass and where the dew point will happen. Open cell foam will have the dew point happen inside of it and the moisture will cause mold over time. Closed cell prohibits this from happening, no moisture barrier needed.
@@Jules_73 I wanted to use blown in cellulose to fill in the space on top of the closed cell foam but it wasn’t available in my area to use on walls and vaulted ceilings. So I opted for blown in fibreglass that is blown in behind a breathable barrier that is stapled to the joists and rafters. The fibreglass resembles cotton candy. It is fluffy with with interlocking fibres that are resistant to settling.
Spray foam (closed cell) becomes a plastic vapor barrier in action. Todd - I'd be happy to be involved in figuring this out or at least involved in the conversation. So sorry! You may not be alone...
Hopefully this guy gets a good lawyer that is familiar with this type of issues. Although he will likely never recoup from his losses, and I pray that his or his family’s health is not affected forever, the builder and foam installer information should be shouted from the roof tops, so it doesn’t happen to someone else, and possibly with worse outcomes.
I’ve foamed several buildings with high density foam. The buildings have been metal. We foam the side wall 4:22 s and use cellulose on the ceilings with attic space vented. No problems and excellent results.
Reading the application/processing info posted on the SDW website it appears that the so-called "No-Mix" (Quick-Shield Dragon) foam only refers to not needing to pre-mix the barrels of the material. it is still produced and sprayed using 2 separate components (A and B) just like any other PU foam. Oddly enough, they also recommend recirculating each material prior to use, and even mention that mixing can improve the performance if the storage temperature was outside the recommended range of 50-90F, or if its near its expiry date. Lots of red flags being raised with these "instructions".
Been installing spray foam in a hot, humid climate with a 20°delta for 19 years. Install only open on the roof deck, 5.5"/R20. As most of the walls are block, very few walls are insulated, then only 2"/R7. Spray foam has bern "god's gift" to HVAC costs. Most of the spray foam issues encountered in the market are installer error and low quality product.
I noticed they mentioned storage temperature but what about application temperature? I am working on a house where they applied the closed cell foam in freezing temperatures.
Lol only around windows and doors only. Houses flex and shrink, foam doesn't really like that. Never seen a house with insulation directly against the underlayment that didn't have problems. Carpenter for 18 years.
Those naviens are known for having internal leaks under the covers. Prob not an issue here or at least yet. But there is a youtube plumber professional named "Mikey Pipes" finds this all the time. He reccomends against using the navien brand .
The problem with spray foam is the overpricing! It should not cost what is charged, if nothing else the reduced labor costs. I believe the installers are marking it way up because it is the current fad in insulation. Please consider a video into why it is so much more then other insulating materials. Thank you.
I'll take a stab at why the cost is so high: There is a huge up front investment both in equipment ($200k) and education/training. Because the conditions have to be right, there is a huge amount of prep work and when temperature and humidity are out of range it becomes a no-go. There is significant liability due to the wide variety of potential problems and the cost of remediation. None of these are the case for traditional forms of insulation. But traditional insulation pales in terms of the efficiency results you can get with properly done spray foam. That said, personally, I would object to the use of spray foam except in very specific use cases due to the inability to visually inspect, and perform troubleshooting, maintenance and modifications. I think it is folly to chase after diminishing returns in efficiency while sacrificing these other considerations when you can get huge improvements (over traditional) with expanding foam if the time is taken to pinpoint what will be a source for air leaks. And there are always products like AeroBarrier if you have the budget to go the extra mile before traditional insulation. There are so many options and I just consider spray foam one of them. I think it has its place and is well worth it in those cases, but it's not a catch all solution. In some sense it's good that it is pricey, otherwise it would be getting used inappropriately all over the place and then truly costing more than it is worth to folks that are even less financially prepared to deal with those problems.
All contractors in every trade will tell you they are perfect for the job. They know everything. They use the best tools and materials. After I learn enough to ask relevant questions, I'm a dozen hours in. If I learn enough to catch all the mistakes as they are happening, I am weeks into self-education. How in the world do property owners practically shake down contractors? I obviously can't spend many weeks of education for every trade just to accurately baby sit them. EVERY time I did not babysit a contractor (any trade) I end up finding deficiencies in the work after it was all done. Now, after many properties and many contractors from every trade.....I can't take any of them at their word. It is hard to see the difference between horrible and great contractors until it's too late.
Well said, and sorry to hear about your experience. I've not had exactly the same experience, but I can certainly imagine. Glad to be part of the solution for people like you- let's keep on pushing.
@HomePerformance The biggest part of the solution is figuring out how to demonstrate that your means, methods, and materials are the correct way to do the job. Saying you do is easy, having a way to prove you do is gold to the person hiring you.
@troycarpenter3675 Take the homeowners away, and you don't have a job to complain about. The real part of a contractors job is defining the work and managing expectations. If you fail to accomplish those things, you are a terrible contractor. You may be exceptional in your craft, but a terrible professional.
We had 5.5" closed cell sprayed in a single day in our roof rafters. I don't know if they did multiple passes or if they just did it all at once in each area. Overall, I'm feeling very fortunate, because there are no smells or other observable issues now a year later. The foam is still accessible, because I'm renovating the house myself and I'm about 30% as fast as a pro, so I've been taking a close look every month or two. That said, I don't think I'd do >3" of foam again in a single day due to the nightmares I hear about with foam insulation. We also only did it in our roof, and we have a standing seam metal roof. That was the only way I'd spray the roof rafters: get a bomber lifetime roof that should never have a leak (i.e. not shingles), because if it leaks it is dead from rot since the water can't leak through the foam and it can't dry out in any other way either.
@@multipotentialite The test results are of little use because there are no standards of testing in place for residential. Even with values off the charts it doesn't matter. The foam manufacturers say that testing for "bad foam" is done by cross sectional view to see if there are no oval shape patterns, smell test and then deny everything that is wrong with the home owners claim. Then they tell you to sue them
I'm so sorry for this homeowner but I will say that he has an "engineer brain" like I do--he has researched the issues, eliminated some possibilities, and found ways to mitigate the disaster. I see that there are a lot of materials constantly being used in construction that have been inadequately tested OR are too complex for the low-IQ or lazy installers to properly install: polybutylene pipe, CPVC pipe, iron pipe installed horizontally (lasts only 4 years before rust through), aluminum wire (and it seems they are trying to use this again), spray in foam... I used to wish I could buy a new home, but now I'm glad I never have.
How would you know which foam to use open or closed cell for Climate Zone 3. I am sure the foam contractors made that decision or at least the general contractor since it's a new custom home construction
@@DonnieBakers-f5f It's all about the cost. Closed cell is more expensive. If they're using open cell, they are either budget bound or cutting corners.
This guy is describing everything that every person who has experienced bad spray foam has had difficulty describing since year 2009. The heavy metals and odors are causing his family undue stress and bodily injury. They don’t know that now but they need to get out and let someone else play detective. If not, in less than ten years their worst fear will settle in…. CANCER!
I have been through the same problems this guy has with the spray foam. HVAC guys did not recommend an ERV after the installation and only say we needed to supply the attic with conditioned air. The VOCs are worse with the hotter the roof gets on the exterior which mean the chemicals are not offgasing after 24hrs as stated by the foam industry. The foam fire retardants shed for the lifetime of the foam compounding the chemical problems. A second layer is not recommended by the foam manufacturers yet it was done in the home.
He is fighting an entire foam industry who has endless money and attorneys. His builder's insurance company doesn't care and the builder is off the hook after paying his 10,000 deductible to file the insurance claim. The homeowner continues to suffer and try to find someone to fix the problems. A lawsuit takes 2 to 5 years, while in the meantime on one covers the mortgage, tax, and loss of use during that time. What a complete mess and I am personally living through it right now
❤ I am building a house and getting ready to insulate after the wiring is done thought about spray foam but after watching this theres no way ill stick to regular insulation makes you wonder if any of it is safe sprayed in a house
Insulation guy here, we primarily use batt insulation with 6m sealed poly and use some spray to certain areas that may require it do to non vented flat roofs or hard to seal box joists ect. No need to spray foam an entire house, crazy expensive and just extra chemicals added to your house. Just insist on quality installation of batts and don’t go with lowest quote
@ in new construction, batt or blown fibreglass is most common, with proper attic truss to soffit prepping done to keep the wind out of your attic but still allowing ventilation with attic shoots in each truss space. If your rich and have enough head room in your attic, spray 2” of closed cell over your drywall and trusses then blow in R40 over top. Check with local building dept if that’s allowable in your jurisdiction. Depends on which climate zone you are in and if vapour barrier is required there.
I don't understand how any of his issues are related to the foam. Obviously, the foam will create a tight air seal and any CO2 will build up. But the install is fine. He needs some venting in his attic if he has a CO2 source somewhere. What does this have to do with foam?
Open cell is excellent 👌 but closed cell must be applied in 1/2" intervals and allowed to completely cure before applying the next coat or you'll create a chemical reaction than can self ignite! I won't apply closed cell foam on anything and have always doubted its validity. Open cell is a miracle yet its only been used for a couple of decades so the deterioration is always 👌 in question. So far? Open cell is miraculous!!! I love y'all kiddo 💓
@25:00. In many trades.. they just dont care. They just after the $$$ and/or dont have the skill /knowledge I have condensation problem in my crawl space. Due to modern hvac, foam attic, and hvac being set to 68 the whole summer. Wood floor with no insulation. Foamer after i explained the moisture problem asks when they could do the job.
Years ago when this stuff got popular I thought people must be insane to trust this product. More bad stories than good no matter who installed it. I couldn’t imagine all this just to have a novel insulation product. Everyone should watch this before using it.
It seems to me that at the root of your problem is the builder .There are many devious builders who use devious contractors .I built my own house last year and used open cell foam .It works perfectly because I used an excellent foam contractor and hired an honest and skilled man to oversee the whole project .You thoroughly inspect the foam work before you even order the sheet rock .I just needed a three inch layer of foam to achieve the level of insulation I needed .Foam is never the issue, it's the installation.
The homeowner, knowing foam will be applied that week, could be monitoring the humidity level in those areas themselves, and if necessary running several dehumidifiers to bring the moisture levels where they need to be prior to the installers arriving and foam being sprayed. Also, tho not healthy for breathing, ozone machines could be run on timers only when nobody is home for prolonged periods which after a period of time would cause the ozone to oxidize the VOC's and dissipate into the air after the half life of the O3 has expired, usually several hours. The right amount of O3 has to be used because over time it can cause degradation of certain plastics and organic based petroleum pruducts
I don’t think it’s a good idea to use closed cell foam over top of open cell spray foam. Won’t it just trap moisture? And what about the dewpoint inSide the open cell foam?
@@jeremyj. I would like an update as well. Its very interesting. Did the foam every get removed, did the VoC come down after the foam removal, did the family live in the home, did the contractor or insurance end up paying the bill for the work to replace and remove the foam, would he use foam again after this, and what will happen the this home if sold?
Yeah I got b1tched out in forums for stating this stuff is a mistake to use. Lots of people don't want to hear this but once they get sick now it's a problem.
Back in the late 80's or early 90's were were wrapping houses in plastic, sealing everything as tight as possible. I was a drywall hanger at the time and every house we did in the cold months with plastic had condensation on the cold side of the plastic. Then people started getting sick. Then the HVAC industry figured out that when a house is built that tight we needed to bring in fresh air mechanically. I like spray foam but I think we are asking it to do too much.
@@markmartin7384 Sure, in cold months we would see condensation between the poly and insulation before we hung the drywall, walls and ceilings. As a house gets built, it takes on moisture and the outside is sealed with a building paper, siding, brick, stucco then you wrap the inside with plastic, the moisture in the walls and ceiling cavities have no where to go. In a "perfect world" before you warp a building in plastic, they need to be conditioned and dry. Moisture inside of walls and ceilings is a very bad thing. I think the same can happen with how spray foam is being used and installed. Foam trapping moisture in building components can't be a good thing, unless the foam has some way to "breath". I like foam but I don't like the idea of an entire building envelope being sealed with the stuff. They sell closed and open cell but I'm not confident that open cell is enough to let a building breath.
In the 1970s the engineering hvac courses preached evils of air infiltration. Professors preached tight homes so to save us from coming cold eras plus running out of oil by 1990.. So that was the rigid dogma not to be questioned . Ie campus engineering got government grants to design tight buildings tight windows tight walls. Questioning that fad was taboo..universities got sweet cash flow to create tight buildings to save us. So that created trapped moisture and toxic mold in the mid late 1980s. The concept that a building should breath some was damned as the research money flowed to professors..it was 75 percent of many engineering professors income at my university so they had a financial interest. The house wrap vendors gave brochures and samples to hvac design classes as the answer. Only after toxic mold did the determination of dew points in interior walls come back into vogue. Another factor is plaster homes from say 1960s and before are naturally more tolerant of moisture. Plaster is often anti mold. Lol. Trapping moisture in a wall is the root cause of smells and rotting.
Hello, Canada mandates that the foam be tested and certified to a master 3rd party standard. The Installers must be certified also. Closed cell foam has a master standard CAN ULC S705.1; this regulates many things on what the product can and cannot do. The 2 inch per pass was based on the chemistry at the time of writing the requirements. In 2018 BASF Canada came up with an XL spray formulation that allowed for safe application up to 5.5 inches at one time. For this to be approved a sub-approval had to be granted for it to meet building code since S705.1 only stated 2” per pass.
Are there any standards in home air VOC testing after a spray foam job goes bad like in this case? How do you know if the foam is bad? Smell and cross sectional viewing of a core sample of foam? Thanks
@@SteveJanoski VOC testing is extensive and mandatory for the product. I have a video about this on my channel where I go into length about it. It is tested for the chemistry profile, assuming you install it to design specifications. When things go wrong is another topic.
I have worked similar cases but we didn't have the cavitation issue nor odor issue. My client I believe was sensitized to the foam due to a lack of mechanical ventilation when I first arrived to start diagnostics. After installing mechanical ventilation, she was better but not completely comfortable in the house. Long of the short they tried remediation which I didn't think would work, and it did not for her. She eventually had to sell the house. I have also had similar issues on fiberglass houses. I do believe there are some people that have reactions to products that are otherwise not considered defective. I don't think this is the case on this house though, there was obvious foam issues with the delamination and cavitation. Feel free to reach out to me if needed I'm in TN and I would freely share my notes on investigations I have also performed on houses like this. Some we have fixed, some we have not.
I feel for this guy. All that hard work and money just wasted. This is why you have so many people who are DIY. Can’t trust people to do quality work.
While this is true there are some things better left to professionals and SPF is one of those things that doesn’t belong in modern homes.
@@private8559 what's better? wool batting? It would probably cost 2-3x more for me to do wool
I also feel for him but I also see him as a "sucker" for being sold on "spray foam everything" is the best thing you can do. Most builders and tradesmen with decades of experience are telling a different story. This video alone should send the message that "spray foam has it's place but is not a total insulation solution"
You can trust that they all do tailgate warranties: When you can't see their tailgate as they driveaway is when the warranty runs out
So true, I can't trust anyone to do anything right so I just try to do it myself
Im in SW MO and had my house spray foam insulated in 2019. It took 3 try’s for conditions to be acceptable for the spray foam applied. The company drove 100+ miles all 3 times. After watching this I feel so lucky that I had a great company that knew what they were doing.
WOW that is incredible. Please share their name so others might hire them too!
@ so sorry I thought i put the company name in. Ozark Foam InSEALators out of Ozark MO.
If you have an older combustion system it has an exhaust and you know that because it's got two holes in it instead of one you have to exhaust that to the outside through the foundation. Most of the newer ones only have one hole on the side and you do not have to exhaust those to the outside but it's always good to check the manufacturer specs on your HVAC equipment and your hot water equipment to make sure your venting all your equipment properly if it needs to be
@manleynelson9419 every combustion appliance must be vented to outdoors with the exception of a ventless gas fireplace which is never a good choice. Not sure what you're referring to, you're saying exhaust but maybe you're confusing combustion air. But every combustion appliance needs that as well whether it's piped or ducted in from outside or the space is adequate enough to supply enough, but with tightly sealed homes the space will not be adequate
nice
I live in a 120 year old house. I have 2 co-workers who had each of their older houses spray foamed. They seem to like it and say it’s a big help with heating. I’m not sold. If you want to run a wire or have some unforeseen issue with something…it’s all under foam. I’ll stick to to the old insulation and put on a sweater.
Yeah like what if you have a roof leak and you've sprayed that stuff underneath the roof in the Attic you never know you have a roof leak until the whole thing is rotted
Dan Yes You get it... this stuff is no Good. As a former wizard Roofer of built up roof systems Ventilation is Key.
Regular fiberglass sheets are 100% the best
I agree, that stuff makes a a mess and can easily be a ticking time bomb, you just don't know.
@@Warp2090i agree 💯
That poor guy will never be the same. My heart goes out to him. If he reads this, just remember, you can live in another house, don't let it destroy your relationships or yourself - those things are much, much harder to rebuild.
The industry needs to be regulated.
We had a bad batch in my basement, the remedy was to scrape the affected area and dispose of the uncured foam. Spraying over it is ridiculous.
At the end the guy needed a hug.
I can't believe those that build a home trust the builder 100% to say,
Me being in the construction field as in HVAC Comercial installer and see other trades at work on the job, it's pretty crazy how new home owner have no idea how somethings are push over on them
Oh yeah they don't give a shit... It's not their house so why would they
Great content
Would be great if we could get regular updates on this house.
Thanks for your time
HVAC contractor here: that return in the bathroom is probably pulling things from the stacks and other areas. I’d get them to remove that and additionally verify traps in the mean time.
Also the on demand gas water heater vents outside but draws combustion air from inside. That will put negative pressure on the house which will pull air from any other source. Pipes, traps, walls, attic, anywhere to replace that air.
Yes on that rainy day the furnace probably ran more due to a cold rainy day
Stories like this are why I don't want to use any spray foam when we build. I know it can be done well, but when it isn't.... oh man is it a nightmare. Not worth the risk, in my opinion.
And if done right EXPENSIVE.
@@keekeemyfirstcat8410 lol, that too. Also, it's a lot easier for a non-professional like me to install pretty much any other type of insulation, and do it correctly the first time.
As a home builder over 47 years I only used spray fo on 2 homes 15 years ago. I will never consider even using spray foam. Listen to these guys and come up with your conclusion. Stick with the established traditional insulation methods installed with patience and attention to detail not cutting corners in a hurry during the install. We don't sub contract the insulation work. When you want something done correctly do it yourself. Too many "arm chair contractors " out there or "TH-cam " contractors. You notice the comments shifting blame to others
There are also insurance companies that will not cover houses with spray foam applied to the underside of roof rafters and roof sheathing with the intention of "condition attic " use traditional batt insulation and baffles. Look at the problems with ridged insulation with stucco finishes and condensation issues ? Finally look at ICF and conditions concerning termites and homeowners insurance denial
STAY AWAY FROM "FOAM " PERIOD !
I somewhat agree but I think spray foam has it's uses, places where "traditional" insulation methods are difficult or impractical. Encapsulating a crawl space, low pitch hips and valleys or on an exterior steel structure. The problem is the spray foam industry has tired to sell their product as a total solution and the reality is, it is not. Just look at the idea of spraying foam on the underside of roof sheathing. Just looking at it, you know nothing good will come of it long term.
Excellent advice! Matt Risinger has said much over the years about "Rockwool".
Yes, don’t like spray foam for the mere fact it traps moisture so easily and if it ends up burning than it’s really toxic .
I hear Termites associated with ICF, but not one video on YT that proves it. Plus, the same system used for wood walls to keep out termites is used on ICF (metal flashing). Hmmm....
There is a peel and stick membrane that goes over the ICF to keep the termites out. It’s a non issue if you use the correct products.
Spray foam allows you to have cathedral ceilings without roof and eaves vents. This is super beneficial as wind and rain can drive moisture into the roof vents and termites can walk right through most vent screens.
Regarding roof leaks and trapping moisture between the roof deck and the foam, use a high quality peel n stick roof membrane and it’s a non issue. Maintain your roof.
In my new houses Im currently building Ive opted to not use any insulation in the solid stone and timber house and to use very minimal insulation, floors and ceiling only, in the wooden framed house. If your house is built right from the start its not needed or very little is at all. Fiberglass batts or the foam board are good options. Years ago when I first began researching the insulation phases of my build I immediately got turned off by the spray foam idea for a few reasons. One was that I built my houses the ancient way and learned that you never spray foam an older house because they were meant to breath. Its one reason they dont mold or rot away. And so that was the main reason. The other reason was it was clearly some type of toxic man made chemicals that required a hazmat suit and breathing filters in order to handle and install. Immediate red flags to me. Its basically toxic waste your pumping into your house where you live and breath. Perhaps even worse than treated lumber which is a no no. And then there is the cost, difficulty to install, the mess, etc. etc. It didnt take me long, within minutes to understand that spray foam is a seriously bad idea.
Out here where I live it can get -40 and with 90 mph gusts on top of that. But those days arent everyday. The cold is manageable even with NO insulation! A little bit of bundle up on the most severe nights and a little bit of open window fan for the rare scorcher days and other than that its actually very nice. You get acclimated to it to such an extent that I can no longer physically stand ac. Its like torture to me now and I never use it anymore. Not even in the car.
My point is that most are doing things all wrong. And not all that glitters is gold. People now are so quick to jump on the latest scheme coming down the pike thinking its going to be great, but if you look closely you will clearly see that any so called advantages of living in this modern life of linear thinking hardly ever if ever outweigh the negative side.
Its as if everyone became completely stupid, lazy, useless and ignorant to even the most basic things all of a sudden.
Its weird to me. And scary. People scare me really bad now. You never know what awful and weird thing theyre going to say or do at any given instant and why. You just know its probably not going to be good.
Most dont even believe in God anymore or live for Him.
Terrifying stuff what comes next as a result of that most basic, simple fact.
And yes, God has everything to do with everything. From the smallest most insignificant thing to the biggest most grappling issue, God most definitely has everything to do with it all!
I live in an old raised house and could never get the wood moisture level low enough. So , I bought solid block insulation and screwed the blocks to the floor and filled the gaps with canned foam spray. Now my floor is no longer cold in the winter.
The water heater intake being open to the crawlspace is a problem. He has a tight house and a tight crawlspace and that intake will create negative pressure in the crawlspace. That negative is likely stronger than his radon mitigation system, but in any case the two will be fighting. The water heater intake *NEEDS* to be coming from outside, and the retrofit must be certain to follow the manufacturer's spacing recommendation from the exhaust.
I love how the lazy plumber saved 15 minutes and $20 in material to cause a problem. That heater was clearly designed to external air.
@@fedorp4713 Should he have piped the intake right next to the exhaust pipe? That would allow the CO to get sucked right into the intake. Seems to me the intake should be piped to a different side of the house. Therefore, it would be a bit more than 15mins and $20. But I agree with your point, the labor and material cost is a few extra peanuts on top of the total install cost.
What the heck is radon? And what does mitigation mean? Sounds like some type of lawyer jargon.
@@JerryCalvert-x9u As you haven't read of radon, maybe you haven't heard of google either. But that webster's or oxford dictionary on your shelf will work as well.
@@JerryCalvert-x9u A quick google search will answer your question. But hey, if you don't care about the health of the people living in your home don't bother.
This fellow and his wife obviously put a lot of thought into building their new home. Who would have ever thought there would be a problem with the insulation!
The interior finish carpentry, woodwork, floors, doors, wood shutters on the windows, etc. look absolutely beautiful.
I sure hope they won’t need to get to the insulation in the exterior walls. 🙄
So many simultaneous problems here makes this house a call back nightmare. Lets break it down: 1) properly sealed crawl space 2) improperly vented gas water heater in crawl space 3) Improperly design hvac system featuring returns with improper location and sizing. 4) Defective spray foam mix and bad application causing foam delamination and excessive outgassing. The delaminating spray foam is likely contributing to condensation and mold growth. All issues must be fixed to restore house health. Priority One: Finding a good lawyer.
Don’t forget the capped/blocked plumbing vent.
7 inches of closed cell is absurd. Look at the diminishing returns for thicknesses for the foam. Spraying too much at once is a huge no no. The homeowner and builder got fleeced.
it is required in some idiotic places
It’s a code compliance argument. Not everyone knows how to navigate code and most definitely building officials are self taught on the job like SPF mechanics.
@@av1204I think he’s referring to the fact that you can only do 2-3” max at once for it to cure properly. Or whatever the product says.
@@ognewb no the u factor goes way down after 4 inches. Like way way way down. 4" = great. 5" = barely better. But because the way code is written in some places you need 7".
SPF has an R val of approx 4 for open cell and 6.5 for closed cell, per inch. So yes, to get code R val minimum for climate zones outside gulf states you’re looking at up to 12.5” thick open cell or 7.5” closed cell. Any argument that spray foam’s R-value is automatically higher because it slso delivers airtightness is false advertising. R value and airtightness are 2 completely different things, each modeled separately in the planning phase as shown here:
LIES to Sell Spray Foam Insulation using Fake Energy Modeling Code Compliance Reports
th-cam.com/video/RHqs7DQxX30/w-d-xo.html
I've been in study mode for the last year researching various materials and approaches to construction. To boil a lot of the lessons of that research off - keeping things as elegantly simple as possible is the best way to manage performance, cost and risk. I'm an aerospace engineer by education and for part of my career in practice - I similarly learned that a strong indicator of a good design concept is that as you continue your analysis additional benefits are uncovered as you go. The opposite is also true - the deeper you dig the harder the digging. To test this, ask yourself the following when choosing a material/technology/method:
1) How hard is XYZ to execute?
2) What additional steps/materials are necessitated by XYZ?
3) What are the risks over time with XYZ?
4) How readily is failure detected?
5) What are the consequences of that failure?
6) What is the cost and inconvenience of resolving that failure?
As an example, early on in my research I was really excited about SIPs - mostly because you have a shell up really fast. However, getting the ridgeline details right is critical and the ridgeline is where nature wants to drive vapor. Failure is covered by finishing materials so you can't see it until it's really bad. If you have funky rotten SIP panels along a ridgeline it is NOT readily fixed without a lot work - only to end up with a solution likely higher risk than the original. Spray foam has a lot of the same risk for the same reasons.
Spray foam and SIPS are both polyurethane foam. The risks are not equal. One = Lab Formed…. The other… let’s just say it is Frankenfoam.
I recommend you look at thermomass CIP product which is their cast in place product. I pour the foundation and above grade walls all at once with 4" of polyiso with a 8" wall and 4" cover wythe. I use Helix 5-25 micro rear. They have great PDFs showing how to use it in a home. Most of the time, it's used for infrastructure and warehouses.
I throw in Xypex but I'm moving to just applying the Xypex after the pour.
Been a contractor 46 yrs the only foam I trust is blue Dow styrofoam but even with that how will I ever know when they change the formula or process with that. With what labor cost today be careful what you use
Rockwool is always the best choice!
For walls, it's awesome.
Real wool!
@@nobodyinnoutdoors Rockwool does not burn. Rockwool does not absorb water/moisture. Rockwool never saggs. Rockwool has the best noise dampening. Nothing is better than Rockwool. EVERYTHING is cheaper than Rockwool.
@ lol same with wool……. And fully sustainable. I mean I get your point that’s why I said wool.
Can rockwool be used in both walls and ceilings?
I’m not at all familiar with it. When I built my house 25 years ago I got the Pink Panther fiberglass insulation. At the time I didn’t know there were insulation options to choose from.
Whats radon got to do with spray foam? And CO2 for that matter after a couple days for off gassing. Neither CO2 or radon have any odour. I think you need to follow the VOC path which could find impropery cured/installed product. Use closed cell foam.
CO2 is an good indicator of lack of ventilation. VOCs will definitely build up in a sealed box, and if any of the leaks are at exposed soil, you can be pulling radon into the home and not venting it.
I'm thinking under certain conditions the power vent on that water heater can't overcome an intermittent negative pressure condition. (Certain doors closed, range hood, clothes dryer)
One further safeguard is to make sure your spray foam installer is using materials that are within their stated shelf life. Typically, this is 1-year for part A (The Isocyanate) and 6 months for part B (the Polyol or Resin). You can check the labels on the barrels for the manufacturing or expiry dates, or ask the supplier to provide you copies of the material certificates for each batch number. Do not accept any past due materials unless they have been tested and recertified by the original manufacturer and this is documented, and only if it is for a low risk or limited scope use.
More good advice.
I would be terrified to buy a new build these days. Your story is one of many. Contractors intentionally not following the drawings and bill of materials. Cutting corners and changing out for cheaper inferior materials. Inspectors signing off as if everything is ok when its not. Nobody is held liable and the owner is stuck fixing and paying the bill.
Builders these days are horrendous.
We need a list of the Contractors involved and these people need to be exposed! They ruined this guys home and most likely many more. Corbett can you get a list of all parties involved to prevent others from dealing with the same issues?
I don’t think that’s possible, but if you find owner operators with long excellent track records and personal referrals, that’s the way to go.
do not ever use spray foam in your house if you’ve ever done construction and you’ve seen it after 10 to 12 years you don’t want it.
@homeperformance, I bought a new home, no spray foam, and very high co2. Its very tight, and there is also radon. Im thinking the co2 could be soil gas because it is proportional to the radon and goes up with rain. It actually went up when i sealed the sump pit so there would have to be another path somewhere. Currently adding a radon fan to see if it helps. I was wondering if something offgassing from the construction is giving a false reading for co2 or some material in the new homes these days other than foam is offgassing co2, as mine has standard fiberglass/cellulose insulation. My other house has a very old basement with sump pit and i used 4" pipe with minimal elbows and distance and a fantech rn2sl fan. It dropped radon from 20 pCi/L to about 1-1.5 pCi/L. But it was very drafty so apparently co2 was less of a problem. If the crawl space has concrete flooring, you may have to search in the crawl space to find the source of CO2 if it's soil gas, and put the radon fan there. But if the entire space is covered sealed and has corrugated tubing running to a fan, that should remove it.
Dang Corbett … you’re a godsend! You’ve definitely helped influence some good design decisions on my future home build. Once the drawings are a full working set, they are going to you first! 😊
My first takeaway from this video is, contractor / installer error(s) is what lead EIFS to so many lawsuits and having a bad name. That could eventually happen to spray foam.
I wonder if spray foam was always part of the design for Todd’s home? Or if it was a change during construction? Is it a wood framed home sitting on a crawl space? Only a CMU stem wall for the foundation, right?
Shouldn't the MSDS list all of the information needed to determine the type of of resin used? The MSDS should be available online on the companies website?
I feel for that guy. He’s not the first one I’ve heard of whose homes have been ruined by the crap.
I would never spray the garbage in my home.
There are so many better options.
As a canadian, the checks on spray foam are appreciated, but every single one of these steps that we need to take, make the option to expensive for so many. You don't need a secondary company to do it, you just need to have the company who is spraying come back and test. There is no need to create additional bureaucracy to implement the same results.
Liked the video. Don't like the seemingly incompetent and dishonest conduct of his insulation contractor or the foam manufacturer who has simply stonewalled *their own paying customer*. Kind of pointless to also express a dislike for the insurance co. as that entire industry nowadays operates as legalized and highly-profitable fraud. They've gotten lawmakers to mandate that we carry insurance even though there's obviously no real mandate that legitimate claims are honored. Absolute ghouls.
Great video! And Spray Jones is a great channel too.
This house needs to be purchased by the GC. Owner has been through enough already, hire a good lawyer and move on with your life.
It’s never that easy
“Purchased by the GC” - lol - they might get a settlement from the GC’s insurance company, but getting a dime out of the GC is wishful thinking. Most will file bankruptcy in a heartbeat when faced with a situation like this.
Worked on two separate jobs where the floor joists were completely rotted out because of spray foam. Both floors had to be completely rebuilt. An entire house and two large commercial bathrooms in a big restaurant. Major major damage. I will never use spray foam insulation anywhere
It's great in a pole barn type structure, or an entirely steel building. But I wouldn't cover wood in a house, especially in a humid climate.
I have a new home sitting currently as it is tied up in a lawsuit with the spray foam company. The longer it sits the worse it gets. 10 months into the lawsuit and no end in sight.
What type of issue do you have to file a suit?
@@DonnieBakers-f5f off ratio foam that is dripping , shrinking foam that has pulled away from the wall. Very bad install. Several hundred spots where you can see the roof / wall sheeting.
@Firedizz That's terrible! Looks like this house had same problem of shrinking foam from rafters causing heat and cool to get in plus increase smells from off ratio foam. What is your home remedy after 1 year? I also have suffered due to foam installation problems in a home
@@DonnieBakers-f5fwe stopped construction on the house. We plan to have all the spray foam removed and then we will re insulate.
@@DonnieBakers-f5fwhat issues have you had? Hopefully they have been fixed?
Brother. No Mix means that the B Side doesn’t have to be agitated. Our rigs have augers that agitate the Mix B product inside the tote on the rig.
Holy cow look at the sheer amount of spray foam all over that house!!!
Spray foam is not the issue here! This is a very tight house (1 ACH50) because of the spray foam. The problem is that there is a moisture problem from the crawl space because it was not sealed properly, and the water heater is back drafting. Sure it wasn't backdrafting when you tested it, but did you have the kitchen, bath, and radon fans on when you tested it? You also never mentioned the humidity levels. Sure he is running dehumidifiers, but it is still not enough. Open cell foam shouldn't have been used, but you need more dehumidification to dry it out. Solution: Properly seal the crawl space and connect the water heater inlet air to the exterior.
I am sure the humidity is controlled if he was measuring all factors to figure out the increase co2 and smells. Two dehumidifiers in crawlspace in the video plus one in attic
Those are Aranet4 monitors in the video that monitor Humidity, Co2, barometric pressure and Temp. So, looks like the humidity issues were addressed.
IMO, I would NEVER.... EVER.... put mechanicals in the crawl space. Crawlspace air always ends up UPstairs.
@@DonnieBakers-f5f Bingo! He’s running 3 dehumidifiers. Do you think he has a moisture issue? Nah, blame it on the spray foam, right Corbett?
The Foam is closed cell it does not let moisture pass through. Non permeable. No Osmosis... Its the Foam yes it is
Actually amazing video and super informative thank you
So glad it’s useful to you Blake
Give me a 200 sq ft cabin with moss and mud insulation anyday over that complicated nitemare! Poor guy.
British home owners must avoid spray foam insulation because our mortgage lenders refuse to offer mortgages on properties with it installed. This is because it prevents the buyer's surveyor from properly inspecting the underlying structure. You'll need to remove the foam before you can sell.
A house on my street needed a whole new roof before the bank would touch it. Spray foam was the issue.
The HVAC pressure problems can also be addressed by cutting vents in the interior walls. Obviously in the same stud cavity and for non-insulated walls. And offset high vs low to avoid site lines and minimize noise conduction with the air. If noise is an issue, a half batt (no facing) can be put behind each vent so "soften" the drywall opposite the vent.
This is why it's critical to understand what brand foam they are spraying. So glad I went with Icynene closed cell which is water based and it's been great!
Rock wool, i would NEVER spray foam anything on roof. Vent home twice daily. Tyrn on cooking fan open window run for at least 30min. Akso open door or window when running dryer. 21:43 return in bathroom! Never, thats one of the most contaminated rooms in home. Auto bath fan and air circulation with ceiling fan 24/7. No mold.
Thanks for sharing this. Good luck to Todd and his family.
Why would a radon system or plumbing vent impact co2?
And oh man, I had a very similar situation though less severe from our foam retrofit. The cheapest way to carbon filter is the grow tent filters from AC infinity or similar coupled with a large blower fan. Positively pressurizing the house with a ventilating dehumidifier on constant mode helps some too. Part of why I’m about to deploy a massively oversized ERV, and considering ducting the AC infinity charcoal filtration.
Radon system would be for ground related Co2 increases in the home or to rule out ground causes of Co2 increases. Plumbing vents that are completely blocked by water act as a P trap so no sewer gases escape from the roof dry vent stack.
@@SteveJanoskiI wonder if the sensors were eCO2 so they extrapolated co2 levels from VOC, which would be elevated by the foam, soil gas, and sewer vent situation…
@@nathanbarry9534 Possibly if the gases were on the same wavelength as the sensor NDIR (Non-Dispersive Infrared). The gases would be: Hydrocarbons (e.g., Methane, Propane). Alcohol Vapors (Ethanol, Isopropanol)Nitrous Oxide (N₂O). CO₂ by detecting infrared light absorption at a wavelength characteristic of CO₂ (typically around 4.26 micrometers). However, certain factors or gases can cause cross-sensitivity or interfere with readings
What a nightmare scenario, toxic chemicals that you can't escape from and mold everywhere... I hope this guy can recover from this
After removing open cell can you spray closed cell in its place? I'm fixing an install problem from a contractor and
I believe given the area thickness it would be best to add CC. Can the two foams touch??
Like all things there is good foam and bad foam. Quality wise. Also, due to epa regulations some of the better performing, for safety reasons, chemicals have been outlawed in the US pushing production overseas. That combined with knowledgeable and skilled installers vs bad installers means it's a crap shoot. It can be done safely and properly. Open cell is never the right solution for a house as it will absorb moisture over time. The 1st time heard someone putting open cell in walls, decades ago, I thought this won't end well. Buts it is much cheaper so people who don't know any better do it anyway. The contractors know better they just want money and don't care about the long term.
Finally putting a fan in your vents in the crawl space is obviously important to mitigate this temporary toxic issue but it's defeating the entire purpose of a encapsulation system if the encapsulation is done properly
@Corbett, Miami FL attic here with only soffit intake vents, no attic exhaust vents (damn builders put no ridge vent).
Flex ducts and main trunk on attic, AHU in closet down the hall (at least).
Attic insulation with loose fill fiberglass.
Duct insulation was full of mold, what Jason from GotMold calls "leopard skin", as seen in that video of the guy who went into litigation with the largest building company.
So... Question
I read that you can 'bury' the ducts in closed cell foam to prevent condensation on the flex ducts.
What do you think?
Im just now going through this now. I have videos up to show what I did. You need to replace the leaking ducts fast. Install new ones and they won't sweat. I just tore ceiling down and got whole new ducts, trunk, complete a/c system. Good luck. You don't want to breathe moldy air.
@@nowthatsfunny1 - thanks for replying sir - so you put closed foam insulation?
If so, a DIY project? I just watched your video but cant figure out how the saga ended.
My soffit vents are all functional, there is plenty of daylight coming through, and insulation is not blocking.
The problem is that 'cross ventilation' from soffits on the south to soffits on the north is, in my humble opinion, not sufficient for heat/humidity removal.
I need a ridge vent, or worst case, some mushroom/turbines.
Does your roof have ridge vents? how do you exhaust?
My GotMold results for the attic were "Moderately evident", with Aspergillus being 6x than the outside sample.
I incinerated the old Flex ducts and put new ones, yes. We mastiked the crap out of every junction, and used my Topdon infrared camera to verify. Main trunk was OK, so I just wiped it with Concrobium.
I have one trip left to attic hell to air seal those problematic recessed lights.
Also installed a thermo-hygrometer, and here is where I am struggling.
Indefectibly, the flex duct surface is ALWAYS at dew point. Unless I bury them I closed cell foam, I dont know how to avoid this problem again.
Or I could get a ridge vent, but my roof is clay tiles 22yo, so I dont know if this is wise at all.
Dont know if ridge vents are even possible with my roof shape.
I’m in Western Canada and I had installed close cell spray foam to 4” inches in the 14 inch I joists and 2 inches thick in the 2x6 filling the remaining space with blown in fibreglass. No vapour barrier needed and house is warm in winter and if you close the windows cool in summer. I only used 4 inches of foam because deeper than that you don’t get as much r value and you fill the remainder of the space with blown in fibreglass
You used closed cell, which is the only way to go. Open cell invites mold as condensation will happen inside the foam.
I didn’t know that about open cell, good to know!
@@Jules_73 Closed cell is a vapor barrier. open is not.
You can do closed, wait a while then open to get the vapor barrier and the thicker foam at a lower price and not have issues, but you have to monitor humidity (which can cause mold in any home that is sealed up well, regardless of insulation type)
I've seen 8 inch thick black mold in the traditional fiberglass.
@@fhuber7507 Fiberglass is an antiquated system that will fall down in the cavity over time and fail. It's all about the thermal mass and where the dew point will happen. Open cell foam will have the dew point happen inside of it and the moisture will cause mold over time. Closed cell prohibits this from happening, no moisture barrier needed.
@@Jules_73 I wanted to use blown in cellulose to fill in the space on top of the closed cell foam but it wasn’t available in my area to use on walls and vaulted ceilings. So I opted for blown in fibreglass that is blown in behind a breathable barrier that is stapled to the joists and rafters. The fibreglass resembles cotton candy. It is fluffy with with interlocking fibres that are resistant to settling.
Spray foam (closed cell) becomes a plastic vapor barrier in action. Todd - I'd be happy to be involved in figuring this out or at least involved in the conversation. So sorry! You may not be alone...
Sounds like at this point you should just tear it down and rebuild the whole house
Hopefully this guy gets a good lawyer that is familiar with this type of issues. Although he will likely never recoup from his losses, and I pray that his or his family’s health is not affected forever, the builder and foam installer information should be shouted from the roof tops, so it doesn’t happen to someone else, and possibly with worse outcomes.
I’ve foamed several buildings with high density foam. The buildings have been metal. We foam the side wall 4:22 s and use cellulose on the ceilings with attic space vented. No problems and excellent results.
I found out that you need to use closed cell foam, not open cell foam!, open cell tends to trap water/moisture and lead to mold/rot problems
Reading the application/processing info posted on the SDW website it appears that the so-called "No-Mix" (Quick-Shield Dragon) foam only refers to not needing to pre-mix the barrels of the material. it is still produced and sprayed using 2 separate components (A and B) just like any other PU foam. Oddly enough, they also recommend recirculating each material prior to use, and even mention that mixing can improve the performance if the storage temperature was outside the recommended range of 50-90F, or if its near its expiry date. Lots of red flags being raised with these "instructions".
It also states that the foam should NOT the layered with another product. But is was done here
Been installing spray foam in a hot, humid climate with a 20°delta for 19 years. Install only open on the roof deck, 5.5"/R20. As most of the walls are block, very few walls are insulated, then only 2"/R7. Spray foam has bern "god's gift" to HVAC costs.
Most of the spray foam issues encountered in the market are installer error and low quality product.
How are these areas of "bad foam" or layered foam resolved by the spray foam contractor for this particular home, in your professional opinion?
@powerof9915 Bad foam needs to be removed. Hiding it with more foam doesn't solve the issue.
@52gulfpapa Agree, why would this installer do this on a multi million dollar home
amazing information, 🥰thank you for sharing 💗
Is this an encapsulated attic?
As one who deals with one of the chemicals used in making this foam- - you people putting this in your house- - you’re NUTS!
Which chemical do you work with?
@ already said too much.
Yeah I'd never put spf in my house.
I noticed they mentioned storage temperature but what about application temperature? I am working on a house where they applied the closed cell foam in freezing temperatures.
Yes, that’s mentioned right after the storage part :(
Lol only around windows and doors only. Houses flex and shrink, foam doesn't really like that. Never seen a house with insulation directly against the underlayment that didn't have problems. Carpenter for 18 years.
We are getting ready to metal house in Florida I should I look for to prevent any problems
Do you have any condenser pumps on those dehumidifiers
Those naviens are known for having internal leaks under the covers. Prob not an issue here or at least yet. But there is a youtube plumber professional named "Mikey Pipes" finds this all the time. He reccomends against using the navien brand .
The problem with spray foam is the overpricing! It should not cost what is charged, if nothing else the reduced labor costs. I believe the installers are marking it way up because it is the current fad in insulation. Please consider a video into why it is so much more then other insulating materials. Thank you.
I'll take a stab at why the cost is so high:
There is a huge up front investment both in equipment ($200k) and education/training.
Because the conditions have to be right, there is a huge amount of prep work and when temperature and humidity are out of range it becomes a no-go.
There is significant liability due to the wide variety of potential problems and the cost of remediation.
None of these are the case for traditional forms of insulation. But traditional insulation pales in terms of the efficiency results you can get with properly done spray foam.
That said, personally, I would object to the use of spray foam except in very specific use cases due to the inability to visually inspect, and perform troubleshooting, maintenance and modifications. I think it is folly to chase after diminishing returns in efficiency while sacrificing these other considerations when you can get huge improvements (over traditional) with expanding foam if the time is taken to pinpoint what will be a source for air leaks. And there are always products like AeroBarrier if you have the budget to go the extra mile before traditional insulation.
There are so many options and I just consider spray foam one of them. I think it has its place and is well worth it in those cases, but it's not a catch all solution.
In some sense it's good that it is pricey, otherwise it would be getting used inappropriately all over the place and then truly costing more than it is worth to folks that are even less financially prepared to deal with those problems.
All contractors in every trade will tell you they are perfect for the job. They know everything. They use the best tools and materials.
After I learn enough to ask relevant questions, I'm a dozen hours in. If I learn enough to catch all the mistakes as they are happening, I am weeks into self-education.
How in the world do property owners practically shake down contractors? I obviously can't spend many weeks of education for every trade just to accurately baby sit them.
EVERY time I did not babysit a contractor (any trade) I end up finding deficiencies in the work after it was all done.
Now, after many properties and many contractors from every trade.....I can't take any of them at their word. It is hard to see the difference between horrible and great contractors until it's too late.
Well said, and sorry to hear about your experience. I've not had exactly the same experience, but I can certainly imagine. Glad to be part of the solution for people like you- let's keep on pushing.
@HomePerformance The biggest part of the solution is figuring out how to demonstrate that your means, methods, and materials are the correct way to do the job.
Saying you do is easy, having a way to prove you do is gold to the person hiring you.
😉
The only two things that get in the way of good contractors are homeowners and bad code officials. Without those two things our job would be easy
@troycarpenter3675 Take the homeowners away, and you don't have a job to complain about.
The real part of a contractors job is defining the work and managing expectations. If you fail to accomplish those things, you are a terrible contractor. You may be exceptional in your craft, but a terrible professional.
We had 5.5" closed cell sprayed in a single day in our roof rafters. I don't know if they did multiple passes or if they just did it all at once in each area. Overall, I'm feeling very fortunate, because there are no smells or other observable issues now a year later. The foam is still accessible, because I'm renovating the house myself and I'm about 30% as fast as a pro, so I've been taking a close look every month or two. That said, I don't think I'd do >3" of foam again in a single day due to the nightmares I hear about with foam insulation.
We also only did it in our roof, and we have a standing seam metal roof. That was the only way I'd spray the roof rafters: get a bomber lifetime roof that should never have a leak (i.e. not shingles), because if it leaks it is dead from rot since the water can't leak through the foam and it can't dry out in any other way either.
I tell people spray foam was designed for metal warehouses and should only be used for that. Covering wood with it is a disaster.
I Would Never put that in the Attic Under Shingles. 😢😮. If you have a Leak you Can't find it.😮
What work is left? What were the test results? How long will it offgas? Years or decades?
Looks like all the foam need to be removed
@powerof9915 I agree but will that happen?
@@multipotentialite The test results are of little use because there are no standards of testing in place for residential. Even with values off the charts it doesn't matter. The foam manufacturers say that testing for "bad foam" is done by cross sectional view to see if there are no oval shape patterns, smell test and then deny everything that is wrong with the home owners claim. Then they tell you to sue them
I'm so sorry for this homeowner but I will say that he has an "engineer brain" like I do--he has researched the issues, eliminated some possibilities, and found ways to mitigate the disaster.
I see that there are a lot of materials constantly being used in construction that have been inadequately tested OR are too complex for the low-IQ or lazy installers to properly install: polybutylene pipe, CPVC pipe, iron pipe installed horizontally (lasts only 4 years before rust through), aluminum wire (and it seems they are trying to use this again), spray in foam...
I used to wish I could buy a new home, but now I'm glad I never have.
Problem being using open cell instead of closed cell….
How would you know which foam to use open or closed cell for Climate Zone 3. I am sure the foam contractors made that decision or at least the general contractor since it's a new custom home construction
@@DonnieBakers-f5f It's all about the cost. Closed cell is more expensive. If they're using open cell, they are either budget bound or cutting corners.
This guy is describing everything that every person who has experienced bad spray foam has had difficulty describing since year 2009. The heavy metals and odors are causing his family undue stress and bodily injury. They don’t know that now but they need to get out and let someone else play detective. If not, in less than ten years their worst fear will settle in…. CANCER!
I have been through the same problems this guy has with the spray foam. HVAC guys did not recommend an ERV after the installation and only say we needed to supply the attic with conditioned air. The VOCs are worse with the hotter the roof gets on the exterior which mean the chemicals are not offgasing after 24hrs as stated by the foam industry. The foam fire retardants shed for the lifetime of the foam compounding the chemical problems. A second layer is not recommended by the foam manufacturers yet it was done in the home.
He is fighting an entire foam industry who has endless money and attorneys. His builder's insurance company doesn't care and the builder is off the hook after paying his 10,000 deductible to file the insurance claim. The homeowner continues to suffer and try to find someone to fix the problems. A lawsuit takes 2 to 5 years, while in the meantime on one covers the mortgage, tax, and loss of use during that time. What a complete mess and I am personally living through it right now
❤ I am building a house and getting ready to insulate after the wiring is done thought about spray foam but after watching this theres no way ill stick to regular insulation makes you wonder if any of it is safe sprayed in a house
Insulation guy here, we primarily use batt insulation with 6m sealed poly and use some spray to certain areas that may require it do to non vented flat roofs or hard to seal box joists ect. No need to spray foam an entire house, crazy expensive and just extra chemicals added to your house. Just insist on quality installation of batts and don’t go with lowest quote
@@Mark-id7fq What is the best product for attics?
@ in new construction, batt or blown fibreglass is most common, with proper attic truss to soffit prepping done to keep the wind out of your attic but still allowing ventilation with attic shoots in each truss space. If your rich and have enough head room in your attic, spray 2” of closed cell over your drywall and trusses then blow in R40 over top. Check with local building dept if that’s allowable in your jurisdiction. Depends on which climate zone you are in and if vapour barrier is required there.
What we need regulations in the states!!! I’m shocked….
I don't understand how any of his issues are related to the foam. Obviously, the foam will create a tight air seal and any CO2 will build up. But the install is fine. He needs some venting in his attic if he has a CO2 source somewhere. What does this have to do with foam?
It was so bad I. The UK for years that you couldn’t get your house insured if you had spray foam. Not sure if it’s the same now.
Open cell is excellent 👌 but closed cell must be applied in 1/2" intervals and allowed to completely cure before applying the next coat or you'll create a chemical reaction than can self ignite! I won't apply closed cell foam on anything and have always doubted its validity. Open cell is a miracle yet its only been used for a couple of decades so the deterioration is always 👌 in question. So far? Open cell is miraculous!!! I love y'all kiddo 💓
@25:00. In many trades.. they just dont care. They just after the $$$ and/or dont have the skill /knowledge
I have condensation problem in my crawl space. Due to modern hvac, foam attic, and hvac being set to 68 the whole summer. Wood floor with no insulation.
Foamer after i explained the moisture problem asks when they could do the job.
Years ago when this stuff got popular I thought people must be insane to trust this product. More bad stories than good no matter who installed it. I couldn’t imagine all this just to have a novel insulation product. Everyone should watch this before using it.
We have Spray Jones in Canada he is very smart...he does you tube videos around the science of spray foam
Yep that’s why we talk about him for a few minutes in this video
So what was more of the problem, attic open cell installation or crawl space closed cell and vapor barrier?
Open cell was more problematic
It seems to me that at the root of your problem is the builder .There are many devious builders who use devious contractors .I built my own house last year and used open cell foam .It works perfectly because I used an excellent foam contractor and hired an honest and skilled man to oversee the whole project .You thoroughly inspect the foam work before you even order the sheet rock .I just needed a three inch layer of foam to achieve the level of insulation I needed .Foam is never the issue, it's the installation.
God Bless his family…. so sad 😞
Curious what sensors he used.
Lots of "less than ideal" work. Was the blocked vent stack the root of the issue?
The homeowner, knowing foam will be applied that week, could be monitoring the humidity level in those areas themselves, and if necessary running several dehumidifiers to bring the moisture levels where they need to be prior to the installers arriving and foam being sprayed.
Also, tho not healthy for breathing, ozone machines could be run on timers only when nobody is home for prolonged periods which after a period of time would cause the ozone to oxidize the VOC's and dissipate into the air after the half life of the O3 has expired, usually several hours. The right amount of O3 has to be used because over time it can cause degradation of certain plastics and organic based petroleum pruducts
Those two should have a social media presence because they potentially have great content.
Yes and no. Few people actually care until they themselves are personally affected. They don’t need the grief the SPF trolls will throw at them.
Doing my garage what is better closed or open?
I don’t think it’s a good idea to use closed cell foam over top of open cell spray foam. Won’t it just trap moisture? And what about the dewpoint inSide the open cell foam?
I can’t believe the insurance wouldn’t cover more than it did. There should have been legal action taken.
Insurance is a scam
Grace and I were literally saying this to each other last night
@@HomePerformance are you planning an update video for this house in the future? I’d like to hear more about how this situation resolves.
Insurances are in the business of making money not actually paying out claims. We have all been fooled.
@@jeremyj. I would like an update as well. Its very interesting. Did the foam every get removed, did the VoC come down after the foam removal, did the family live in the home, did the contractor or insurance end up paying the bill for the work to replace and remove the foam, would he use foam again after this, and what will happen the this home if sold?
Spray foam will be like asbestos
And pex/pvc with all the microplastics and don’t forget all the silica from the stone products fuuuuck!!!!!!😂💀
Yep, and the experts will say; nobody saw it coming.
Yeah I got b1tched out in forums for stating this stuff is a mistake to use. Lots of people don't want to hear this but once they get sick now it's a problem.
I wish I knew who this homeowner is. I would love to try to help out.
Email Corbett, I am sure he could set that up. Looks like he needs all help he can get.
Tired of builders yesing their clients
Tell them the truth, even if the truth is you don’t know
Then you don’t get the job. It’s about character.
Back in the late 80's or early 90's were were wrapping houses in plastic, sealing everything as tight as possible. I was a drywall hanger at the time and every house we did in the cold months with plastic had condensation on the cold side of the plastic. Then people started getting sick. Then the HVAC industry figured out that when a house is built that tight we needed to bring in fresh air mechanically. I like spray foam but I think we are asking it to do too much.
Interesting are you saying the poly vapor barrier between the drywall and insulation had condensation on the inside? Can you elaborate thanks
@@markmartin7384 Sure, in cold months we would see condensation between the poly and insulation before we hung the drywall, walls and ceilings. As a house gets built, it takes on moisture and the outside is sealed with a building paper, siding, brick, stucco then you wrap the inside with plastic, the moisture in the walls and ceiling cavities have no where to go. In a "perfect world" before you warp a building in plastic, they need to be conditioned and dry. Moisture inside of walls and ceilings is a very bad thing.
I think the same can happen with how spray foam is being used and installed. Foam trapping moisture in building components can't be a good thing, unless the foam has some way to "breath". I like foam but I don't like the idea of an entire building envelope being sealed with the stuff. They sell closed and open cell but I'm not confident that open cell is enough to let a building breath.
In the 1970s the engineering hvac courses preached evils of air infiltration. Professors preached tight homes so to save us from coming cold eras plus running out of oil by 1990..
So that was the rigid dogma not to be questioned . Ie campus engineering got government grants to design tight buildings tight windows tight walls.
Questioning that fad was taboo..universities got sweet cash flow to create tight buildings to save us.
So that created trapped moisture and toxic mold in the mid late 1980s.
The concept that a building should breath some was damned as the research money flowed to professors..it was 75 percent of many engineering professors income at my university so they had a financial interest.
The house wrap vendors gave brochures and samples to hvac design classes as the answer.
Only after toxic mold did the determination of dew points in interior walls come back into vogue.
Another factor is plaster homes from say 1960s and before are naturally more tolerant of moisture. Plaster is often anti mold. Lol.
Trapping moisture in a wall is the root cause of smells and rotting.
How are you going to know if your roof is leaking if you spray foamed the sheathing and how rotten is everything when you finally discover this.
Hello,
Canada mandates that the foam be tested and certified to a master 3rd party standard.
The Installers must be certified also.
Closed cell foam has a master standard CAN ULC S705.1; this regulates many things on what the product can and cannot do. The 2 inch per pass was based on the chemistry at the time of writing the requirements. In 2018 BASF Canada came up with an XL spray formulation that allowed for safe application up to 5.5 inches at one time. For this to be approved a sub-approval had to be granted for it to meet building code since S705.1 only stated 2” per pass.
THANKS SPRAY JONES- good to know specifically how all of that QC and the manufacturer innovations are being incorporated safely in Canada
Are there any standards in home air VOC testing after a spray foam job goes bad like in this case? How do you know if the foam is bad? Smell and cross sectional viewing of a core sample of foam? Thanks
@@SteveJanoski VOC testing is extensive and mandatory for the product. I have a video about this on my channel where I go into length about it. It is tested for the chemistry profile, assuming you install it to design specifications.
When things go wrong is another topic.
I have worked similar cases but we didn't have the cavitation issue nor odor issue. My client I believe was sensitized to the foam due to a lack of mechanical ventilation when I first arrived to start diagnostics. After installing mechanical ventilation, she was better but not completely comfortable in the house. Long of the short they tried remediation which I didn't think would work, and it did not for her. She eventually had to sell the house. I have also had similar issues on fiberglass houses. I do believe there are some people that have reactions to products that are otherwise not considered defective. I don't think this is the case on this house though, there was obvious foam issues with the delamination and cavitation.
Feel free to reach out to me if needed I'm in TN and I would freely share my notes on investigations I have also performed on houses like this. Some we have fixed, some we have not.