Middle-earth Mysteries - King Bladorthin
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ค. 2023
- In this video, we look at King Bladorthin, a mysterious leader who ruled a great kingdom in the late Third Age.
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Considering we get mention of Dorwinion and King Bladorthin in basically no other sources but the Hobbit, I think he’s the King of Dorwinion. I assume Tolkien just never bothered to make that connection exactly since that realm had little to no effect on the events of the story as a whole. Perhaps Dorwinion was once a home for elves but Sauron drove them away with his war against the elves and then afterwards Easterlings who were friendly to the west and northmen of Rhovanion who were displaced by Sauron moved in and setup shop in the old elven ruins.
I think Bladorthin being the King of Dorwinion is a very safe bet. We know its rough location, we know that they have money (to buy the weapons), and we know that they might have both Elvish and Mannish influences.
I can confidently say, I barely have heard of this man right here. I have heard the name once in the Hobbit (as you said in the video) and that one time in your Dorwinion video. This man is probably one of the least known characters in all of Tolkien's universe.
I'd like to assume a few things:
1: if he was an Easterling he did not live much beyond the sea of Ruhn if not restricted almost entirely to its east since there are 4 other dwarf clans to the east which would likely be closer if the distance were so great.
2: he likely lived closer to the destruction of Erabor than 1999 because I would find it unlikely that the Dwarves would think much on an arsenal of weapons from a time long before the birth of even their parents/grandparents.
3: They're likely destroyed as they requested weapons of war and the mention of payment never being received indicates that it wasn't that the weapons couldn't be delivered but that there was no one to take them at that point.
If I had to wager, after the fall of the Wainriders in the area of Rhovanion its many peoples, likely formed kingdoms. One of them, a Manish kingdom of likely northmen or easterlings had a ruler for some time that named Bladorthin but his rule was disrupted by Sauron as we know sauron was in the east regaining power and reestablishing himself with the eastern kings of men. I come to this conclusion because we never learn of any elves nearby the lonely mountain besides those in our known tales and possibly Dorwinion if they indeed live there. Along with this, Dorwinion is said to still exist atleast during the time of the Hobbit which would not match with my belief that this king fell due to war.
Baldorthin could be a Easterling king (chieftain) who bought the spears on advice of the Blue wizards, and together with the other four dwarven clans and some Avari, would fight against sauron.
That's a nice way to link it to the Blue Wizards. We do know that they were quite influential in the east.
I very much like that theory. It's been a fair while since I dug into the lore on the east of middle earth but I'm fairly sure Sauron faced opposition there for some time with the blue wizards supposed to be helping them, so a request for dwarf crafted weapons would be very in line with what they would buy.
@@piotrmontgomerytv7786 Yeah most of them were evil but not all and the name Baldorthin could be a title that the elves gave him.
His name is suggestive of a Northman.
@@piotrmontgomerytv7786 its an actual name of Norse extraction.
Could you do a video on Arda´s other continents? I know we know very little on them, but you always make a surprisingly informative mix of the lore and speculations so it could be intersting video.
I had forgotten about this character entirely, and when I read the books when I was younger I never realized that it wasn't referring to a King of Dale. Really enjoy this series, some really obscure topics that increase my curiosity about Middle Earth.
Were-worms were creatures in the Last Desert in the East of East, which were only mentioned by Bilbo.[1] It is not known if they were an actual race or if they were only a part of Hobbit folklore, which mentions several mythical creatures, such as Dumbledors[2], Hummerhorns[2] or Turtle-fish[3]. another idea for a video i hope lord of the rings online eventually does this with Rhun
There was an unnamed realm between Mirkwood and the Sea of Rhûn which was ruled by Vidugavia, an ally of King Romendacil II. in T.A. 1250 who helped him in the war against the people of Rhun. The King sent his son to the court of Vidugavia as an ambassador to learn the language, manners and policies of the Northmen. Valacar eventually loved the Northern lands and people and married Vidugavia's daughter Vidumavi.
There used to be many different realms of northmen in Rhovannion around this time, however, even if he was the most powerful of the many Northern princes, he never truly unified all the Northmen under his claimed kingship. So I guess Bladorthin was just one of these kings or even a descendant of Vidugavia.
Side tangent about Vindugavia and the unnamed realm he ruled. Given the (few) names used from there and the vague historical analogs and geography, I suspect it was quite possibly a place inspired from the Baltic tribes, and quite possibly Tolkien was using The Grand Duchy of Lithuania as the primary inspiration for his "backwards development" of that place and people.
With Vytautas the Great, Gediminas, and Jogaila, all being key historical rulers there with quite similar name elements to Vindugavia, the similarities of other Baltic languages (such as Latvian), the mention of Gondor sending emissaries to "learn the language" (I'm certain Tolkien would have found Lithuanian fascinating and insightful as a tool in 'back forming' linguistic roots), as well as join with their people in marriage, the confluence there of northern, eastern, and 'western' influences, as well as the various clear inspirations drawn from the history of Lithuanian and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in Tolkien's works, it's just a theory I've held for awhile about Rhovanion generally, and Dorwinion, as well as the general area around the Sea of Rhun.
@@Celebmacil ...That totally fits!
@@Celebmacil The names Vidugavia and Vidumavi are derived from Gothic language (with some spelling differences), if I am not mistaken. Those names mean "Forest Lord" and "Forest Maiden". Tolkien definitely had learned Gothic language, and as Northmen are ancestors of Rohirrim, it is reasonable that they spoke some Germanic language (or that their actual language is represented by some Germanic language). Also, I think the relationships between kingdom of Gondor and Northmen of Rhovannion more closely resemble the relationships between Romans and Goths (although in Middle-Earth they are much more friendly), then relationships between The Grand Duchy of Lithuania and some other European kingdom(s).
But maybe there were some inspirations from The Grand Duchy of Lithuania in describing Northmen of Rhovannion, as some assume that one of the inspirations of the charge of Rohirrim at the Pellenor Fields was the charge of winged hussars of Polish-Lithuanian Commonweailth at the battle of Vienna in 1683. Also, Goths lived at the territoris that later were parts of The Grand Duchy of Lithuania (mostly in modern Ukraine), ana, as far as I know, Gothic languagemore closely resembled Baltic languages in comparison to later Germanic languages, because both Gothic and modern Baltic languages preserve more archaic Indo-European traits.
The mysteries videoes are the best
I agree!
He could have also been a Dwarf king, of the Iron Hills for example, though they would have no need for iron. Maybe from the Witheread Heath?
But the most likely option, in my opinion, is that Tolkien thought of none of those options. In his view, he was only describing a world that exists somewhere out there, and is much wider and fuller than whatever he wrote. Sad but true.
There's two reasons I left out the Dwarf option. The first is that I can't see why Dwarves would need other Dwarves to craft their weapons, and secondly, we know what Khuzdul sounds like, and Bladorthin is definitely not a Khuzdul name.
Nope, Iron Hills were ruled by Durin's folk already.
@DarthGandalfYT True, but none of the Dwarven names we know from The Hobbit or LOTR are Khuzdul either. But you're right about point #1.
The biggest niche mystery to me is Elladan and Elrohir. Did they both choose mortality? Was the point of choice when Elrond left? If they were mortal, they didn't live as long as Arwen because Rivendell was deserted when Aragorn died. Why did they choose to be mortal (if they both did). We know they didn't take mortal wives.
Though I also wonder about children in Valinor. When Elrond crossed the sea was he greeted by siblings? His parents hadn't been married that long, so they could still have had more children.
Dior had the growth rate of a man. What happened when he died? What about his children that were left in the woods to die? Man or Elf? Are they reembodied in Valinor?
I believe it’s likely that Elladan and Elrohir became mortal, but became ranger type people who hunted the remnants of dark forces etc. Rivendell is likely abandoned because besides Elladan and Elrohir, everyone else sailed west. Elrond couldn’t be met by children because his father doesn’t live in Valinor. Eärendil eternally sails the sky in his ship with Silmaril. While his mother Elwing is literally a bird. For Dior, he was killed in the 2nd sack of Doriath, but seeing as he chose to become an elf, his soul was likely sent to Mandos. His twin kids were likely killed in the sack as well.
@@Valkorion9872 You should reread the Silmarillion. Eärendil does not spend all his time sailing the heavens in Vingilot. He returns to Valinor from his journeys. When he returns, he's greeted by his wife, Elwing, who has a tower on the Sundering Shores where she waits for him. She spends a lot of time among seabirds and had learned to speak their language and to fly with wings to greet her husband. But she's not a bird. That got fixed prior to her arrival in Valinor. You've twisted their story into some tragedy where they can never be together because he's eternally sailing the skies and she's eternally a bird. That's in your head. Not the canon.
The first Half-eleven to be given a choice were Elwing and Eärendil. All the previous Half-elven (Dior, Eluréd and Elurín) died before that opportunity occurred. Dior's life had been a mortal life. By age 36 (when he was killed), he had grown to maturity, married and had three children. That's a Man's mortal life. Elves still look like a 7 year old kid when they're in their 20s. Puberty ends at age 50. And they're not adults until they're 100 years old.
The real Bladorthin was the fellowship we made along the way. /cough I like the idea that he was an Avari king, personally.
When I think about if Bladorthin ruled Dorwinion as his great kingdom, this royal and this land could have been some of the mentioned allies of Erebor who were not great in the art of crafting or forging, but through trade with the dwarves became wealthy and powerful nonetheless. Dorwinion was near to Rhun, and could have had consistent threats from the Easterlings, so having a trade agreement with the dwarves, giving Erebor the best wine in Middle-earth in exchange for Spears for Baldorthin's armies, would definitely allow Dorwinion to prosper and defend itself. We already know Dorwinion traded with the Elves of Mirkwood, their possible kin, as well as the men of Lake-town and Dale, AND the dwarves of Erebor and the Iron Hills as well! Since Smaug sacked Erebor, Baldorthin would never have gotten his spears, making his armies less armed, and therefore could have fallen in battle to men or orcs of the east. If this happened shortly after Smaug's sacking, this would explain why he never payed for the spears, it was too late. It would also be over two centuries before the hobbit, which is why he is long been dead. This connection between an enigmatic realm and an equally enigmatic ruler, as well as the Sindarin naming of both, just works in my head!
Excellent video.
If I were to guess, I would say he might be a human king who perished during the Wainrider invasion. Hence the reason why the kingdom perished before he could pay or receive the weapons.
Of course, him being an avari king does sound interesting. It would explain why the avari disappeared from the lore of middle earth.
He's probably king between the Battle of Celebrant in 2510 and the arrival of Smaug. Otherwise the Wainriders or the Balchoth would have eliminated him before he got to the point of calling himself king and ordering high quality Dwarven weapons. You also have to consider they're spears, which are not likely to be for an Easterling group fighting on horseback.
He was Queen Beruthiel’s secret boyfriend, obviously and he took care of her cats when she was out of town.
🤣🤣🤣 And he unleashed them on Wargs.
Wasn't Bladorthin the name for Gandalf in earlier drafts of "The Hobbit"? You can create a far-fetch conspiracy theory about it that Bladorthin was actually Gandalf, who tried to create his own kingdom (like Saruman in Isengard later), but failed for some reasons and had to play dead :).
Also, the root "blador" can be found in Bladorinand, one of early names for Beleriand, and Bladorwen, one of early names for Yavanna, and probably means "wide open plain" or something like that (which is an appropriate element in the name of the ruler of some steppe people). The reason why Bladorthin had a Sindar name may be that he was one of the Sindar lords who migrated eastwards and created their own kingdoms in Eastern Middle-Earth, like Amdir and Oropher.
Bladorthin is the name used by Thorongil when living outside of Gondor and Rohan.
Nice video! I'd been hoping for more discussion on Bladorthin!
I do know that the *name* Bladorthin was used for the character who would become Gandalf in early drafts of *The Hobbit.* Gandalf is a Northmen name, which makes me imagine it was meant to be a Northman name.
Another mention only in the hobbit is wereworms and I think hobgoblins too.
From THE HISTORY OF THE HOBBIT by John Ratliffe we know that in early drafts of THE HOBBIT that Bladorthin was the original name of the Gandalf character. In later drafts the name Bladorthin was transferred to this one off reference to a king who placed an order for weapons from the Dwarves of Erebor. In my mind he was a king of a realm of Men related to those of Rohan and Dale -- distantly related to the Edain of the First Age -- that fell sometime prior to the fall of Erebor to Smaug. It probably wasn't Dorwinion since that realm still existed later and still traded with the Woodland Realm of the Elves.
Thank you for your hard work!
Thank you
Late to the party, but I'm gonna go wild with this one. My theory is this Bladorthin was a self styled king of men or elves who wanted to venture out into the withered heath. If you're gonna pay an arm and a leg for high quality dwarven weapons, you ought to have a good reason, and the dwarves probably would have been more than happy to supply such an expedition.
Would it have worked out? Probably not, but that's not really the dwarves' problem.
Of course Bladorthin might have died while the spears were being smithed or the army they were being smithed for might have been defeated and he was trying to bargain for a cheaper option for his now much reduced armies. Or he might have order the spears without pre agreeing payment and when he got the bill he tried to haggle and the dwarfs refused to lower their price and he wasn't quite wealthy enough to buy all the spears so the deal ended up falling through. Or he might have died by the time they were ready and his heir found himself unwilling to pay the high price when his kingdom was perhaps now mot as mighty after the death of the great king. Or maybe he was overthrown and replaced by an ally of Sauron who the dwarves refused to sell the spears to.
Or as you say literally anything is possible as long as it fits in a roughly 800 year time period.
What if Bladorthin recived his speers?
If I might make a suggestion for another video I have a couple ideas.
1) Would Sauron take part in Dagor Dagorath?
2) Would the Eru/Valar intervene if Sauron had gotten the One Ring?
I want a video on how stinky Dwarven undershorts can really get.
Blador boy was eanur who after being beat by the witch king was so embarressed he founded an easterling kingdom and changed his just so he wouldent have to get the i told you so speach from his steward and admit that he fell for the witch kings ligma joke.
Let's see - the dwarves in Bilbo's company knew these spears. That means they were a recent work, not something from long ago buried deep under the mountain. So the most logical thing to think (I was thinking this when I first read this book) is they were just finished when the dragon came. And yeah, thus it would mean Bladorthin would be a man. Most likely also elderly at that time.
What about The Lost Kingdom of Rhovanian? Or does that predate the timeline needed? They splintered into what became the men of Dale, possible influx into Dorwinion, and the men of the Anduin Vale who would go on to become the Rhohirim/Eorlings.
The old Kingdom of Rhovanion was long gone by the time that Bladorthin could've existed.
Wasn't china amongst the things that were only mentionned once in the hobbit ?
In the draft, Bilbo mentions both the Chinese and Hindu Kush, but these references were ultimately removed.
Perhaps a king of Dorwinion, had an elven name because of the avarin influence.
OK, here's your fan fiction. King Bladorthin didn't just order spears, he also ordered shields and armor. He actually ruled a kingdom of Men north of the Ered Mithrin that was plagued by cold drakes and his people needed better weapons and defenses to try and fight off these drakes. Unfortunately, he died at the hands of one drake before he could pay for and receive his order from the Dwarves of Erebor. He had no heirs and the ensuing infighting along with drake attacks brought about the ruin of the kingdom swiftly. Now, there are only a few scattered remnants of those people, eking out a living as best they can. Long ago means something different to Dwarves than it does to us so all this happened sometime before T.A. 2400.
A kingdom north of Ered Mithrin? That's a cold existence.
Is there any specific evidence that rules out the possibility of King Bladorthin being a dwarven king of an easten dwarvish kingdom rather than a man or an Elf? Granted, if that were the case, his subjects would probably have made their own weapons rather than ordering some from Erebor.
On another note, one could probably narrow the timeline for King Bladorthin even further to sometime between 2589 and 2770 of the Third Age because the Kings of Durin's folk left for the Grey Mountains shortly after founding Erebor and only returned once Thorin's great grandfather was slain by a dragon in 2589.
Can u do a middle earth mystery video about the identities of the Nazgûl?
What if Bladorthin was an Avari or Dorwinionish King who was suspicious of dwarves, and so did not pay for the spears until they arrived, and sence the spears never arrived, he never paid for them
Today I had an epiphany on King Bladorthin whilst on the toilet. Thorin says that when his grandfather was King Under the Mountain "kings would send for our smiths" King Bladorthin was one of these kings! The only other kings at this time are the Kings of Rohan, and we know the names of all these kings. Also Thorin says "kings" which means there were either several kingdoms ruled by elves, which seems very unlikely, I really doubt the Dwarf kings of the Red Mountains would believe that Erebor did better work than they did. This leads to King Bladorthin being a man, and there being kings before and after him.
It's also possible that his kingship could have been elected, and his kingship ended before he could pay for them, or it could have been a petty realm like Vidugavia called himself King of Rhovanion, but was only it's strongest prince. As Rhovanion was the name of the Kingdom of Rhovanion, as in the area, we don't know where Vidugavia was prince of. It could be the same for King Bladorthin.
Could he have been king of Dorwinion? Possibly. There were elves in Gondor until 1981 T.A. if they were happy and were used as workers it makes sense to keep them around. Also we are told the elves of Mirkwood have "their kin in the south", which implies elves are still Dorwinion as there were in Gondor that outlived the House of Anarion! It's possible that Dorwinion is surrounded by enemies making it impossible for the people to escape and could explain why the spears were not paid for. It was discovered by spies and he could not get them or he was killed and replaced by a puppet ruler, who would be a man for certain and they also used the dwarves to make things for them, hence "kings".
Hey, could you maybe make a video in the future about the nature of magic in Tolkien’s Legendarium? I feel like there’s a lot of misconceptions in regards to the subject, and it would be nice to know how exactly Tolkien weaves it into his works
Obviously he never received his spears because he never paid for them. The fact that he ordered a large number of spears would indicate his country was at, or feared becoming involved in, a war. So perhaps the spears were never paid for because King Bladorthin died before he had the chance to do so. At any rate, what wars were being fought in that time period involving unnamed Kings? I should think that the fact that he could afford to pay dwarfs to make spears. As opposed to having his own smiths make them. It must have cost a pretty penny for dwarf-forged weapons. So Dorwinion would make sense.
If Smaug had caught Bilbo and burnt him up 🔥, would that have destroyed the One Ribg?
Algormancy!
unrelated but would love an answer here or in a future video.
Why did Sauron/Morgoth care to dominate Middle Earth? A gods/angelic beings it seems odd they would care so much about the mortal realm.
Drop the livestream DG please
who is king bladorthin
Make one about Bellakar, and the southern realms beyond Umbar
Although I do like a lot of the stuff about Bellakar and the realms south of Umbar, they're all unfortunately non-canon.
@@DarthGandalfYT I've check the name and I wonder... What is the New Notion Club Archive wiki ? Is it used for roleplay? These pages seem very creative even though non-canon, but I don't understand where it comes from !
More niche. We crave the niche!
Couldn't he also be a dwarven king of one of the eastern clans? Maybe these dwarves lacked the expertise or materials to forge spears with the elegance erebor's dwarves did
Y'all... he's me. *I* am Bladorthin.
If you had to live during the war of the rings in a mannish realm and you had to suffer all the events that occurred in that realm during the war where would you choose?
Rohan
Could he have been of Arnor?
Arnor was gone by the time Bladorthin could've existed.
He may be a eastern Dwarve king,who asked for speers because the dwarves of Erebor were better kraftsman.
I have no clue who he is but I liked his name though
Scraping the barrel for content
Useless comment.