Hey folks! Reminder that if you use the promo code skl.sh/jacksaint3 you'll get TWO FREE MONTHS of Skillshare! It's a good deal for a cool service, and Skillshare likes when I get people signed up! I hope this video inspires some thoughts for all of you, whether that's further consideration for the difficulties of 'authentic' biopic film-making, how we can handle the zeitgeist of public opinion in fiction, or just what a white knight cuck I am. In any case, I look forward to reading your comments! Have a wonderful week. PATREON: www.patreon.com/jacksaint KO-FI: ko-fi.com/lackingsaint TWITTER: twitter.com/LackingSaint STORE: www.teepublic.com/stores/jack-saint-store TWITCH: www.twitch.tv/lacksaint
@Breno Ferreira I think Patrick Willems' video on Music Biopics (which is great) says pretty much everything I would currently have to comment on, but if I do think of anything novel to say I'll definitely consider it!
@@LackingSaint Excellent Job, dismantling the Crue mythos!! I said something about being pretty sad about Lee beating up a Jewish man & calling him slurs, & then having his swastika tattoo removed before court. I've received the most threats yet (from my Extremely humanitarian comments). ★ So TY ★💗🇨🇦👍🏼🇨🇦💗 I LOVE this channel!!
Adding onto the topic of this video, but not about women, Vince Neil was in an infamous drunk driving incident where he was drunk (blood level at 0.17, above the legal limit at the time) and crashed his car while swerving into oncoming traffic after losing control of his car, and killing Razzle, drummer of Finnish rock band Hanoi Rocks, along with severely injuring the two drivers in the other car, those injuries include giving them brain damage. The movie made it out to be that Vince was at best buzzed, but still sober and conscious enough to drive, and was distracted by a conversation with Razzle. Bad
Don't forget how the movie then shifts the narrative from "holy shit Vince killed a guy" to "hey Nikki and Tommy just found heroin and they left poor Vince Neil in jail for 17 days, it was literally hell for Vince and his friends weren't there for him"
Not surprising. The script had to be filtered through every member of the Motley Crue. So of course the movie turns out to depict them as sympathetic and/or blameless. It's either "we're not to blame, we were the product of the time" or "we were just dumb kids drunk on fame". It's Motley Crue's PR propaganda, which is why I don't buy it one bit.
That's really not how I read it. I just saw it as he was drunk/high so he wasn't sensible enough to keep an eye on the road when talking to his friend and didn't have strong enough reactions. Maybe you're right but idk
It's funny that Tommy called a 30 year old woman a little girl when his current wife is in her 30's as well, so does he also consider his wife a little girl?
I'm sure he does and he's probably super disrespectful about it. Guys like dating much younger women so they can call them stupid and blame any of their reactions to their mistreatment on them being immature.
I'm a huge Motley Crue fan and alot of things they've dont I can laugh at For the other shit: I dont see the Nikki story as rape, just really goddamn stupid Tommy and Pamela I didnt take a side and instead said they were both wrong Tommy hitting Honey: I still dont feel bad for her even in the book version Vince: can he at learn from ANYTHING he does and God the law sucks at handling him
I think the most hilarious part about those comments cited in the video was that all of them are basically saying "well back then things were just like this, and if you're offended by that, then you're just being a wimp and flinching away from history" but like... no! it's exactly the opposite! the people who know what the band's history actually consists of are asking for *more* dark content to be depicted on the screen please! *more* of the offensive stuff, and actually framed as bad please! because it actually happened... and to shove it under the rug *the way the movie does* is much more revisionist than saying, definitively, "this happened, and it was wrong." what commenters like that really want is for people to stop questioning the idea that using women as props for a man's good time is all part of the fun. true male indulgence is supposed to include lots of disposable women to use however they please, offered up with the same ease and excess as other commodities such as drugs and alcohol. viewing women as fully human characters in the narrative, and fully human people in life, runs directly counter to this sort of thing... and the main strategy to combat any criticism offered up by literally anyone at all, is to flippantly dismiss it as PC culture ruining everything. this mindset is a product of pure selfishness.
Aren't those comments basically using a false dilemma fallacy ? It's either The Dirt is, well, the way it is OR it is (/would otherwise be) an ultra-PC movie that rewrite history. No in-between, those are just the two choices there seems to be.
@@xeno-kun983 yup! and the assumption that an ultra-PC movie would rewrite history, instead of showing history as it was and putting it on blast, doesn't make any sense anyway. literally any other option would make more sense than that.
@@mehwhatever9483 True. A *politically correct movie* and a *movie which accurately depicts history* aren't two mutually exclusive things. But anyway, if I'm not mistaken, if those comments are basically a false dilemma fallacy then I got to wonder : are those people using it aware of that ? See the things about logical fallacies is there are basically two groups using them. Those with mischievous intent and those (sorry for the scorn) who are too dumb to realize they're using a fallacy. I've always been incredibly worried by the latter category. Especially since I've started watching people like Hbomber, Shaun or Three Arrows. Cause at least, a guy with mischievous intent knows he's full of shit. That guy scares me less than an idiot who believes himself to be right. Fallacies are used to derail the conversation. An idiot believing himself to be right using unknowingly tactics to derail the conversation is disquieting.
I think these are people who care more about the results than how they get there. whether or not they can identify the fallacies by name or say how they work, they probably know they’re doing something stupid. but it doesn’t matter. the people who agree with them will just nod along one way or another, and the people who don’t agree? they’re the ones who actually have to deal with how stupid they’re being. trolls can string a smart person along forever just by continuing to be stupid against all logic. you can explain and explain, and all they have to do is keep pulling more bullshit out of left field, which they can do into eternity. doesn’t change the fact that they were always gonna believe what they believe... they don’t care who’s right. like I said earlier, the idea behind the “logic” is that they want to justify the idea of disposable women as an essential part of male hyper indulgence. this is an inherently selfish desire... they couldn’t get what they want by appealing to anyone with an actual stake in asserting that this kind of behavior is shitty. so they make enemies out of any dissenters. they aren’t interested in what anyone has to say... they’re interested in annoying you, and reinforcing the beliefs of anyone who already agrees.
My mom was raped as a teenager in the 80s, and it still haunts her to this day. "That's just how things were back then" as IF that makes it ok to ignore abuse and rape without addressing the trauma that followed :/
@@spookyho5994 tysm. she's had a hard life, but now she's living me, my brother and my stepdad; they were high school sweethearts and they just got married last year 💙 she's the happiest she's ever been
The women that were groupies back then chose to lower themselves to that kind of debauchery. They weren't raped. I'm not denying what your mom went through, but it has nothing to do with this
@@hofstad2598 That’s such a cartoonishly evil thing to say about anyone, genuinely. If you have any women in your life who care about you, I’d hope they don’t see that comment.
Being a producer in your own biopic is like when those "scientific" studies that come out, praising some food product like butter, are actually funded by Land O'Lakes.
Well maybe they wanted to oversee the movie being made about out them to make sure it is faithful to their story so that when it's released millions of people will know their truth instead of a falsehood the way that bohemian rhapsody was. Just a thought.
@@hofstad2598 but most people sanitize their past as they clearly did. It’s not that crazy they shouldn’t be proud of it but either make a fun biopic or show they were shitty in all the ways they were at the time
You know, I can think of a good example of a film where the camera focuses on the batterer rather than the victim, that still sides with the victim. It’s even a music biopic: ‘What’s Love Got To Do With It?’ Often we see Ike more than Tina in the violent scenes. But that works because of what it shows: not just how he hits her, but how he sights on her, hits, takes aim, hits again - in other words, how chillingly deliberate it is. Total opposite of ‘He was provoked then he was sorry’: it’s full-on ‘asshole did it on purpose.’ Also, of course, we get to see the effect on her in other scenes. So yeah, lots of ways to depict battery without condoning it; no excuse really.
Yeah, it’s upsetting, so if that’s something you don’t care to watch ... probably not the one to make an exception for. It’s a good movie, but pretty gruelling.
Morgan Carroll I agree, and Samuel Jackson [edit: sorry, Laurence Fishburne, thanks for catching that Deana J] too. He does something I don’t think I’ve seen in any other movie featuring intimate partner violence: he draws a subtle distinction between anger and outrage. Ike isn’t really hitting Tina/Anna May because he’s angry: he is, but really he’s outraged, because he feels absolutely justified in expecting that he should have control at all times and she should never view him with anything less than awe and gratitude. Hence the deliberateness of the violence: he’s doing it strategically, to cow her back into submission, and to re-assert (to himself as much as to her) that he’s the boss. It’s a truly frightening performance, because he so clearly will never feel remorse. He feels he’s doing the right thing.
I mean, if you're gonna fictionalize your band so much it's basically unrecognizable to actual reality, why not just have them join the X-Men or something. At least that would be fun. Also the voices for those comments are too good.
I was surprised that Honey stabbing Tommy was completely made up and that she didn't even assault him. That's a ridiculously extreme hatchet job. The scene was basically designed to be the most sympathetic possible depiction of domestic violence.
@@wfjhDUI yeah its still fucked up. But she abused him multiple times as well. The girl was jealous as hell (i believed she stabbed him just because a female friend of tommy calles). Still it's no excuse to hit back ofc. Then again tommy was full of booze and god knows what kinda drugs.
@@tuson8741 Why would it not be an excuse to hit back? Surely the principle of self defense doesn't vanish when you're in a relationship. Although it should be proportional and actually in self defense, of course. Then you should break up, or at least separate until the attacker get their shit together.
Considering that This Is Spinal Tap exists, and perfectly made fun of every single trope in these sorts of films, I'm shocked generic rock biopics/docs are still made.
Motley Crue was my favorite band in middle school, and I really wanted to live their notorious rock n roll lifestyle, but reading the Dirt in 8th grade was genuinely effective as a cautionary tale and I think that book really helped me avoid several life choices. It's a shame the movie adaptation is just a sanitized celebration of that excess with some vague sense of regret just to make it seem like it had a point.
That was exactly how I felt about it. The Dirt itself is a wildly cautionary tale, and it's framed by everyone involved as a 'this was bad and fucked up and you shouldn't do it or be like us' but the movie makes it seem like it's all just a silly sanitary good time and that's really not the point of the whole thing. And showing the bad parts in framing of being justified helps nobody and does nothing but to make it seem like the band members have always and still are like that regardless of whether they have grown as actual people or not.
I find it odd and amusing that the angry commenters are responding as though critics wanted a film that whitewashes and sanitizes the band's sordid lifestyle. If anything, it's quite the opposite: the framing consistently makes excuses, deflects responsibility, or downplays the consequences of the band members' behaviour.
@@Doc_Fun What? The commenter made an observation about the criticizers of the reviews. Sure, it's not the main point of the video, but it was still featured in it. Sasha is allowed to highlight a certain part if he/she wants to. Your snark is sadly misplaced.
@@aswaney7449 they are paraphrasing what had already been said in an attempt to rally against naysayers on a video populated mostly by people who agree with the video, and on a video that again, has already stated what OP went out of their way to state. It's unnecessary and sort of annoying, so i'll place my snark where I like, thanks.
It was portrayed that way because that’s what happened...they got away with those things in real life. That’s the bigger issue to me. I don’t have a problem with the movie, I have a problem with the reality of “if you’re rich and famous you can get away with anything”
This reminds me of how I grew to dislike The Disaster Artist film after reading the book. The film led me to believe that Greg's journey with the wacky Tommy had its bumps, but in the end they followed their dreams of making a movie people would enjoy (even if for the wrong reasons). The book brutally corrected me with the truth that Greg was an up and coming actor so desperate to get his foot in the door, that he worked with an unstable and potentially dangerous man who obsessed over Greg to creepy stalker levels. TDA the film couldn't possibly show this perspective because Tommy is "obviously" the happy-go-lucky nut who said "You are TEARING ME APART, Lisa!" What a silly guy! Let's watch the actors in a shot-for-shot and nearly second-to-second recreation of those scenes in The Room that everyone memes to death! Yeah, Tommy didn't provide food, water, or even basic air conditioning on set, but everybody eventually pulled through, no worries!
@kevin willems Greg illustrates a much darker side to Tommy that I feel the movie tones down. I got a much better sense of Tommy's verbal abuse and manipulation through the book (wish I could give exact examples at the moment, but it's been a while since I last read it. Don't want to give misleading information). Similar to the book's cover art, Tommy was a ticking time bomb, and Greg does a great job building up to that explosion. After reading the book, I concluded that The Disaster Artist movie is basically a better-written version of The Room (and surface-level fanservice for people who ironically love Tommy's masterpiece). But it's lackluster in truly capturing the hopeless spiral Greg found himself in by starting a friendship with this bizarre man. (Edgy clickbait version of my comment: The Disaster Artist movie is a "Disneyfied" version of its source material.)
Yeah, I agree. I read the book first and I found Greg Sestero's conflicted view of what happened really interesting - his relationship w/Tommy Wiseau was and is pretty fucked up even though it ultimately secured his longterm career and his livelihood. The movie completely glossed over Wiseau's manipulative tendencies, verbal abuse against people and sexism in favour of making him a likeable protagonist.
What kind of killed the film for me was the ending where everyone laughed their heads off at the premiere. I wasn't there, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's the kind of reaction a large audience would have on first seeing the movie. The Room wasn't a commercial block buster. It was a cult success. People going in expecting to see a "real" movie would have just tuned out instead of laughing their heads off at the things we eventually found to appreciate about the film.
It's funny how saying that you want a biopic to give more attention to the more violent, tense and polemical subjects is "PC" but wanting to keep nostalgic feelings with a cookie-cutter rockstar story is edgy, hardcore and "80's".
Is it too much to ask for both a realistic look at a non-PC lifestyle while also maintaining an interesting insight into the psychology of the era and characters? I don't think so.
A lot of reactionaries seem to just use "PC" to refer to anything actually giving consideration to the viewpoint of women, racial minorities, or THE GAYS, rather than referring to how sanitized a piece of media is. A lot of these supposedly "anti-PC" warriors seem perfectly content with overtly and unrealistically sanitized content when it's positively reflecting the conservative status quo.
The fact that the scene with the ex-fiancé was shown before any other scenes with her shows that the director is trying to frame her in an unsympathetic way. If the scene of her cheating was placed after the other scenes, the audience could possibly sympathize with her.
Might not be the director. Could have been an editor or producer. Like there could have been an earlier scene that was cut (haven't seen the film so I'm not sure how much sense that would make). Or even just the screen writer. Not necessarily the director. Although considering it's an ex fiance and the band were involved themselves, it's of course entirely possible they wanted to frame her in a negative light out of pure spite.
@@lainiwakura1776 Sometimes people get stuck into abusive relationships and, since the cost of leaving that relationship could scale even to death (it's way more common than you think), they just "cheat" because is the only viable way to get something that gets near to love and happiness. Dont be a dick and listen more please.
Benjamín Carmona yeah no cheaters are assholes. If you’re unhappy, then leave. It’s that simple Edit: as someone who has been cheated on, I can’t really sympathize with people who do that.
@@spencerhayes1993 You mean like how ppattison2004 is inconsiderate of the people the band hurt by just going "it was the 80's man?" But don't let things like that get in the way of calling someone using a funny text to speech voice the inconsiderate one.
"Let's rewrite history so it's PC and in tune with modern thought" I know that guy meant that as a sarcastic attack on the review, but the movie basically did that.
I love all the Motley Crue/Dirt movie defenders referring to the 80s as though it were ye olden days where people all acted under a completely different ideology. "You can't think of the 80s with your modern lens" like what??? That's how you talk about Shakespeare, not the Motley Crue. It was literally only 30~ years ago. Edit: how do I turn off notifications for a comment
The band was already old when Nirvana came out, which was very sympathetic to women, discussing female abuse such as "Rape Me", kinda bizarre the movie sidestep the cultural shift of Grunge, and just blame Vince leaving for the band 90s downfall
I don't think that perspective is valid in the first place, tbh. What, we can't criticize slavery (or, if we cut to the chase, specific slave owners we still want to idolize) because "it was a different time"? This promotes the ridiculous notion that no-one in any previous era of history could recognize the injustices of their time, which is both hilariously reductive and demonstrably false. Those who promote this idea are simply trying to preserve their fantasy of an era, to feel like it's okay to endorse or adore something "problematic" or, if they actually lived through it, avoid feeling responsible for their participation. I mean, it's important to acknowledge the context in which people live(d), but that in no way makes them immune to criticism. We certainly don't apply this reasoning to other cultures/religions/etc.
@@thejollysloth5743 I've never seen anyone argue for that sort of position, but I've seen a lot of random guys on the Internet argue against it. ... Wow, the lefties must be even crazier than I thought!
It's not just abuse, though it's definitely more common than other examples. A lot of time the suffering of a woman (death, emotional trauma, physical injury through other means, etc.) is used only to forward a man's story and no info is given about how the woman is effected.
me and my mom refuse to watch this because we know they changed so much of the story to make a cutesy Hollywood movie that doesn't show any of the terrible repercussions that they had on others. my mom dated nikki for a bit and toured with them and the way they treated her was terrible. i hope this movie crashes and that people know that it mostly glossed over what they did and how they treated women.
Right, my real problem isn’t the portrayal in the movie (sorry I watched it) but rather the fact they were aloud to treat people like this and they still are rich and famous...there were no real repercussions in the movie because there weren’t any in real life! The movies not really the issue...they way we treat wealth and fame is the problem.
Brittnay Does I agree my dude celebrities can get away with such shit but at least nowadays it’s being called out a bit more so hopefully we won’t have to deal with such terrible things in the future
Brittnay Does however I see people praising this movie as if it really shows who and what they were and I know it’s a biopic but dude,, like jack says if you’re going to frame it as the some worst of the things you did why would you Change it to a completely different event to seemingly make it a less edgy or as harmful as it actually was
It’s like Bohemian Rhapsody, but instead of the historical revisionism done to highlight the talent and illuminate the experience of marginalized groups via a once-in-a-generation talent and his integral friendship with bandmates, it’s to avoid the entire band being rightfully associated with rape and battery.
@@AK-jl2wm Undoubtedly Bohemian Rhapsody was better than this netflix trash, but it's still bad. Just not as bad as The Dirt. It takes entire events out of context and out of order and puts the story of Queen into the standard musical artist/band movie.
@@kesorangutan6170 Mother Earth is too nice to us, and this is how we treat her, smh But to be fair, some poisonous things could grow up on that movie.
Based on the number of British actors playing the band members, I thought Motley Crue was from the UK. Until I watched this video. Also my only other point of reference for them was hearing the name Tommy Lee and being like, wait, Pamela Anderson's ex husband?
That's the thing. I love rants about movies I'm never going to watch. This was just what I wanted. I realize I have no ability to make this seem sincere, but I am.
Huh you didn't mention Vince's cancer daughter, who because never went through through puberty was framed as perfect (there's alot to say about that), also the movie cut out Nikki's grandma's Nona, who was a positive female influence to Nikki, writing a song out of guilt for failing to attend her funeral
I actually thought Sharise (Charise?), Vince's wife, escaped the madonna-whore complex thing, being the only female character that was explored for more than two seconds... or maybe she just fulfilled all the roles a patriarchal order offers to women (beloved-whore-wife-sexy mother-virginal mother-crone) and that was enough by comparison.
NIKKI is a POS. He not only missed Nona,s funeral but his kid sisters who the night they had a concert a mile from where she lay NEVER EVEN TOOK THE TIME TO SEE HER B 4 SHE DIED. Nikki only cares about nikki.
The intro was weird with Nikki narrating how terrible the 80s was, as if he was Bob Dylan providing a voice of a generation, only the band was basically a representation of the problems of the 80s, excessive capitalism, cocaine abuse, mistreatment of women, flash to cover up emptiness... and I like their music
@@TheDanishGuyReviews The 70's were better than the 80's for music. The best 80's musical development was synth, and the best bands were leftovers from the 70's and maybe stuff like The Cure.
It's not like women who were famous groupies back in the day haven't talked about the rape, assault and grooming they witnessed. It's just that the people who think of these times as fun and saucy romps literally don't give a single fuck. Both because they don't want stains on their nostalgia goggles and also because they couldn't care less about what a woman says. Especially if she's been a "slutty" groupie. She's not believed at best and straight up being told she deserved it at worst. It's gonna take a long time until we may finally have a discussion about the abhorrent behavior of beloved bands.
I felt the way it handled drug addiction also shows this nostalgic, retrospective justification. We never really get the drugs presented as destroying the band members (almost certainly too contributing to how they treated people, considering they were always drunk or snorting coke). I felt the handling of these things just glamorised what really should or could have been a lowpoint to the narrative; considering your video now I think this is really the same problem with how they glamorised the band being dicks to women/their friends and coworkers. Bohemian Rhapsody (to a decent extent) avoided this trap, and Lords of Chaos definitely did. So watching this rockumentary after those two really just made me think "hey, this is fun, but i dont think i should be finding it fun"
Eeeh.. Drugs amplify.. If you're nice, you won't become an utter arse, but if you are one, it gets easier. So if you're raised in a culture privileging men in some way and devaluing in other, leading to resentment, this can then be lived out because drugs make it harder to say no to things you know you shouldn't say yes to.
Well that’s a problem with portraying drug abuse...it IS fun. And then it suddenly isn’t. It’s also different because they were rich...most issues that most addicts experience could be fixed by having a lot of money. I imagine if you’re a rockstar you aren’t worrying about bills or how to get your next fix or getting ripped off or going to jail since you probably get drugs delivered. I’m not saying being a drug addict if you’re rich is okay, but it’s definitely not relatable to being a regular person addicted to drugs.
You watch heroin (specifically but also drinking) tear the band apart, what are you on about? And Lord of Chaos is a movie riddled with made up information that bears little resemblance to what actually happened by most accounts of people who were active in the black metal scene at the time.
My older mum did too. I'm 45 - so middle aged - & refuse to watch it cos I distinctly remember what assholes they were. I KNEW they'd dumb it down & true to form? They did. By dumb it down, I mean misogyny it up whilst lying & making excuses.
My middle aged dad also loved it, he told us about it in the car. His teenage daughter hates it and would probably rather watch Despicable Me 2 while being his violently with a gardening hoe.
"If you look at, say, Starship Troopers..." What, you're asking me to go watch the movie again, then maybe listen to the soundtrack afterwards, then watch Robocop because Paul Verhoeven? I mean, if you insist!
@@daytripper1023 Yeah, but not a very funny one. Paul obviously reacted according to the caricatured understanding he has of "lefties," but Elise's sense of humor still sucks. (Couldn't she at least have been a little more specific about what gets criminalized in this joke scenario?)
When the Queen film came out. People said how it wasn't accurate to what actually happened. And how it gave the band a softer friendly light. So when I saw the trailer for this I figured it was going to be the same thing with this film. A few years back I read Nikki Six's book that had entries from his drugged up cocaine phase. So I knew this wasn't going to show that dark side a human. Like the whole band were asshole and they know it. Glossing over that fact just make them look fake and a bunch sellouts.
The movie glosses over a lot of the horrible stuff that happens in the book-- sexism, abuse, harassment, etc, etc. They really worked hard to make the band sympathetic, but then also glossed over Vince Neil's daughter and her illness and death, which would have made him theoretically more sympathetic :/
I had this conversation recently with my sister. Motley Crue is one of the shittiest bands and part of the shittiest genre/movement in music history. They make me sick lol
So, I saw Motley Crue live in concert on their farewell tour. They put up a pretty good show, played things well. Had a strong finale with Home Sweet Home. But I wasn't there to see them, I was actually there to see their opener Alice Cooper, dude is a hero of mine. And that was awesome. But it would have been moreso, if you couldn't feel the growing impatience of the folks in the audience, and hear comments like, I shit you not, "who's this guy"? And "when is this dude gonna wrap it up"!? There wasn't a whole lot of respect for the Coop. Which is crazy, because you could make the argument that there would be no Crue without Alice to lead the way, hence them inviting him on the tour. Many of the Crue fans seemed like people whose teenage years (the 80's) had been the best years of their lives, and then decided they would NEVER grow up (not in a fun or endearing way, more in an immature, stunted growth kind of way) kind of seems like the band, in retrospect. They put on a rad show, talented dudes, but the whole experience, and half the people who had shown up for it, left me feeling pretty bitter. To this day, as much as I used to dig Dr Feelgood, it's hard for me not to think of them with the negative feelings left over from that experience.
This might be a little off topic but I think the misogyny of the 80's hair metal bands is one of the reasons why Kurt Cobain was such a cultural zeitgeist. He was a rock star who didn't glorify treating women as objects. He states in many of his interviews that he was a feminist and that he despised these bands who were mainly just 'singing about their dicks.' All the focus on sex and partying was getting stale and people were becoming unable to relate. So it was absolutely necessary for this shift to take place, and it had to happen through music, because you win more hearts and minds through music than you do through politics. (Also off topic, hair metal sucks. It's one of my least favorite genres of music)
I don't know if thats the case because look at rap music of the 90's. there is probably more misogyny in one cd produced by death row then all the hair metal bands combined. By the early 90's every band was the same and Kurt Cobain was something fresh, new, and different. ( off topic but Hair Metal is way better then the crap thats played today, sure it might get repetitive but it has more talent then allot of genres of music)
Hair metal had a huge amount of faults but it’s undeniable it had a huge impact on rock. That music also had some of the best guitar solos ever. You’re really gonna tell me Def Leppard and Cinderella were completely terrible bands? Or that quiet riot’s metal health and the first two albums of Motley Crue weren’t actually pretty solid? And let’s not forget how pantera (and Guns&Roses) started. But it’s true that a lot of those bands (poison, winger, white snake) did suck ass a lot lol.
I love Mötley Crüe's music (I have bad taste okay) but idk why they would make a biopic about them in 2019. They're just washed up has-been's at this point and they were a pretty mediocre hair metal band to begin with. This movie was completely unnecessary and a waste of money to make. Also Machine Gun Kelly
I realize women are always 100% innocent victims and should never be questioned or even looked at askew, but is anyone going to mention the fact that these thots were lining up 6-deep for a chance at getting banged by one of these guys back in the day?
No but they showed henry rollins seeing motley cruë for the first like omg best band ever. N I was like why did Rollins let some band he never heard of much less from, just like show up and like take over a show and be like 'whoo best band forever motley c... i mean uh Henry Rollins Band forever!' *whispers* but they can open for us n be 2nd best band forever and then we'd get to see them all year *clears throat* 'I mean these guys amirite?' That's exactly how it happened.. No context needed they just were they awesome that every known artist they crossed was just especially enamored with them That's very hardly the most glaring part that a liberal amount of 'blur tool was used over top of.
Funny how the people saying "it's just how it was back then, do you want to change history to make it pc" are not only missing the point but also are the ones defending a sugar coated, safe, version of history made to never challenge their "the 80's were a wild free time" kind of thinking
This reminds me of the people who defended XXXtentacion despite the shit he did just because they were blind to it from his music and the public persona he wanted them to see. Except... Motley Crue at least has good music.
Pink Guy Well, X actually wanted to improve himself, but was murdered shortly after that, sadly. They just want to erase the past. And his music was good, just not for everyone.
+Sophitia of Hyrule XXXTENTACION was an absolute scumbag in his life, but I will honestly take him over Chris Brown _any_ day, not just because I prefer X’s edge-rap over Chris’s... whatever you call it, but also because, yeah, from sources close to him, X was at least _trying_ to turn his life around before dying at age 20- he was the same age as me, and nobody deserves to die that young. Chris Brown meanwhile is 30 and he remains an unrepentant monster.
You can do insightful examinations of misogyny by rock stars. The Wall is in large part about misogyny. The difference is that it ONLY shows the worst parts of being a rockstar
@@shagohad3 Pink's relationships with his smothering mother, his ultimately unfaithful wife, his rage at the groupie he lures back to his room, and Ralph Steadman's animations explore the allure and disgust of sexuality, via it's writhing, morphing "beautiful/sickening" animations of "flowers." That makes up the majority of the narrative. Sounds pretty misogynistic to me. That's not a crime for a dramatic narrative, but let us at least recognize and acknowledge the bias against the women in this story.
WOW. So what the film is saying is Tommy Lee DOESN'T have the balls to own up to his bad decisions. OK. HAHA. Then Tommy gets triggered by a critical review. jeez that boy got spine.
I agree how the movie 'punishes' tommy lee ex-fiance but in the scene the mom actually thinks that 'groupie' is a good word, she says to tommy how he always used to use this word
Mateus Grazina KingofSting19 Well that’s what he’s talking about starting around 5:37 with “dramatic irony”; we’re introduced to the fiancé as a cheater and she’s called a groupie as “punishment” *not by the mother*, but by the movie. It happens alllll the time for bad characters (usually cheaters, actually) that aren’t really villains, just bad people. If you see the character later get hit by a car or something - no character has to shout aloud “and that’s what you get!” (they rarely do) but you understand that the movie is doling out a satisfying punishment for that character. So whatever the mom intended is irrelevant because punishing characters that are bad people is common and how this movie is filmed shows that that’s what it’s doing with this scene.
The video does remind me of, and contrasts sharply with, Kurt cobain. He had respect for women. If he were alive today he would not be ok with all this misogyny.
Fully agreed! He wasn’t OK with this type of behaviour in the 90s, and he would’ve still hated them. He famously hated the Hair metal & sleaze rock scene and he despised the message these bands brought with them. ”Women & drugs! The rock n roll lifestyle, man” I’m glad Nirvana and the Grunge scene kicked the asses of these mediocere 80s bands, as well as proving to the public that they were a thing from the past, from then on.
@@brensherlock cheating by itself doesn't necessarily make you a misogynist. people do it for all sorts of reasons, but I don't know his story for sure.
Sacred Lamb ; in any context, cheating is explicit disrespect towards your partner. you can’t claim kurt cobain respected women when he betrayed his long-term, loving girlfriend’s trust by fucking other women.
Even in the fictional version, the punching really wasn't justified. If he'd done it at the moment of the stabbing, as like a defensive reflex? That would be one thing. But it comes well after that event, when he gets pissed off.
Considering the band "randomly" decided to get back together and start touring, I guess this was all just a publicity stunt to see if there was a market for Crue "in the PC era". It's depressing to see that it is, and I say this as a formerly devoted fan.
The movie’s attitude towards women makes a lot more sense when you learn that the novel which served as the source material was co-authored by Neil Strauss, aka the guy who wrote ‘The Game’, the infamous autobiographical account of the pick up artist community
"That's how things we're in the 80s" in defence of a film that glorifies the lives of terrible people and covers up the horrible shit they did. Yep its boomer time
Didn't Tommy Lee recently attack Trisha Peytas online, calling her "Spamela Anderson" (body shaming her; a fan of his), for doing a fan-photoshoot to resemble the one he did with Pamela Anderson back in the day? I don't know much about the people -- as individuals -- involved, and can't claim to be a knowledgable fan of anyone stated for, but according to the evidence that this occurred, very, very recently... Tommy hasn't learned much about not being hateful toward women, targeting their bodies as an auto-insult -- even those who've done absolutely nothing wrongful to him, and are (were?) dedicated fans of his.
My old roommate wanted to go to the Motely Crue concert a few years go, so I and my friend went with her. All I remember is the fans mostly being older people (who were very drunk and boisterous, but that's normal for any concert) and being really weirded out by the 16-maybe 20 year old sexy dancing girls they had on stage with them in every song. The guys in the band are freaking ancient, it just looked so out of place.
After Generation Swine flopped hard, Nikki realized the only thing people wanted from the Crue was “girls girls girls” hair metal. So that’s what they’ve been doing since. And it’s honestly cringeworthy. Nikki tried to be different once, failed and then kept on doing the same shit for the next two decades even as all of them got old as fuck.
This is probably the biggest example as to why I feel nostalgic revivalism is literally the stupidest thing our culture can do. It wasn't what it was. It's just a rose-tinted wash down version of it. It wants to have all the stuff it deems fun and cool, but wants to ignore or outright justify the negative consequences of that stuff and paints anyone trying to point that out as some "evil PC people" out on a scary conspiracy to destroy everyone's fun. It's not an honest reflection of our nostalgia. It's just aesthetics and bullshit to make sad and aging losers feel good.
13:56 I wonder how many celebrities have this complex. I feel like at least 40% of rappers are like "no I don't think *all* women are skanks... some women are literally without fault, like my momma and my daughter."
If they’re going for a hardcore rock documentary about drugs and rock n roll n stuff and how it catches up to you, why not have it focus on Courtney Love? There’s hardly any sympathetic depictions surrounding her. She had the drug problem and hit pretty deep lows. She was in the scene of that time. 🤷♀️
Not supposed to say this but my uncle drives alice coopers bus and he often tours with motley. They are so shitty to alice. I went to an alice Cooper/ motley crew concert because of my uncle getting me tickets and I was in the crew section with my mom and one of the crew members heard I was 18 i said yes and he gave me a joint and a bottle of vodka and asked me if i wanted to go see nikki sixx because he would "be really into me" i told him he had to ask my mom so he retracted the invitation. Lol I'm sure i would have been asulted if i went.
God I totally forgot about how disgusting Saints Of LA is, not just about that specific line, but the whole song can basically be read as them attempting to justify their lives of doing terrible things to people and its all okay because they are musicians who signed their life away to living the Rock N Roll lifestyle.
@@MackenziiRivers lol Nikki Sixx gave up the ghost on that excuse for his fans when he said the whole album was basically based on the autobiography of the band. In fact, it was so based on the autobiography that they considered naming it "The Dirt". In fact In fact, he actually stated you could probably plug the songs in as "extra stories" in the book.
@@Phished123 probably fair, but you still judge the art and the artist separately. or nobody would be able to like anything as theres dirt on every creator ever existed.
@@MackenziiRivers Sure, but while we address the artistic merit of the art, we should also talk about the badness of the artist. Sure, if we really like the art is is possible to compartmentalize those two things from each other, but we have to remember that the other compartment exists, and played a role in the creation of that person as an artist, so even a tiny fraction of those bad things are contained inherently inside the art.
@@Phished123 it really does not though. Walt Disney could be considered a bad person yet what he made was amazing. you'd judge the both separately. Just because an artist had a messed up life or view of things should not distract points away from the art they made
I find it funny that bands who carefully manicure a persona of being edgy and out of control are so anal when it comes to ensuring they are ‘out of control’ in all the right places. I’d have more respect for them if they were honest and critical of their past selves and showed the events that took place with an unbiased view. After all, that would truely be original and edgy, unlike the milk toast run of the mill film they produced.
Sexism is so baked into the Rock n' Roll lifestyle that idk there *was* a way to make The Dirt without it becoming a bleak tragedy. The truth is when you're an impossibly rich and famous man surrounded by groupies before age 21, the odds of you forming any opinion about women other than as sexual objects is just...not great. To be clear, I'm not excusing the film's portrayal, especially since it went out of its way to fabricate so much. It just does add up that this lifestyle leads to a really unhealthy view of women. That Tommy Lee (57) called an adult woman "little girl" for writing an article he disagreed with sort of exemplifies that. If she's not their relative, they have no idea how to interact with her that doesn't involve their masculinity and it's probably why you really don't see many happily married rock stars. Seeing your spouse as an unnecessarily complicated flesh-light does not a long lasting bond make.
As a huge Crüe fan I just wanna say FUCKING THANK YOU FOR THIS. I've hated the movie since it came out but couldn't put my finger on exactly why and this really nails it.
So basically this movie suffers from the same problems as All Eyez On Me, Gotti, Jersey Boys, and to some extent Bohemian Rhapsody. This is why all biopics about people who ware still alive or are heavily interfered by the person’s friends and family end up being bad, boring, and or inaccurate. Granted, those moves had many other problems besides the inaccuracies. However, by scrubbing away the flawed aspects of a person’s life it makes the person less interesting and lessens the impact of their success. The fact that that these biopics keep having the same problems show me that Hollywood hasn’t learned a damn thing.
I actually really like Jersey Boys because it actually shows what are arsehole Tommy De Vito was, how Frankie Valli wrecked his marriage through cheating and the tragic impact this had on his daughter and the band's mob connections also that everyone had a different perspective, maybe it was sanitized but that still pulled a lot less punches than many biopics too. Ironically the most sympathetically portrayed band member is Nicky who is the only one who is dead.
Lords Of Chaos is another recent film with a similar concept with much better execution, if you can get past the many fictionalized elements it's a great film that at times was genuinely scarier than any horror I've seen in years. Though most people justifiably think it's shit, and pretty much all the people depicted have denounced it, so I'm probably wrong.
I read the scene with Tommy's mother as her genuinely not knowing what a "groupie" is and the negative connotations behind it. The way she responds to Tommy's admonishment seems to evoke the kind of "what, what did I say?" response you see older/out of touch characters give in media when they said something they didn't know wasn't socially appropriate.
KingofSting19 Well that’s what he’s talking about starting around 5:37 with “dramatic irony”; we’re introduced to the fiancé as a cheater and she’s called a groupie as “punishment” *not by the mother*, but by the movie. It happens alllll the time for bad characters (usually cheaters, actually) that aren’t really villains, just bad people. If you see the character later get hit by a car or something - no character has to shout aloud “and that’s what you get!” (they rarely do) but you understand that the movie is doling out a satisfying punishment for that character. So whatever the mom intended is irrelevant because punishing characters that are bad people is common and how this movie is filmed shows that that’s what it’s doing with this scene.
You're 100% accurate with that statement. English was not Tommy's Mum's first language, she didn't even speak English when she met his Dad. :) It's not how the film portrayed it (although there is a throwaway line just after that, or maybe before, I can't remember, about his Mum not being able to speak English when they met/got married), but your statement is correct.
This reminds me of when NPR did a thing about Eminem's album anniversary and a caller was like, "I thought we all knew he was jokeing when he was being misogynistic" and as a girl who grew up on glassjaw and the deftones I thought it was a joke too, but being self aware about being a predator is not the same thing as satire. The singer from glassjaw has publicly apologized and I don't hear any "wouldn't it be sexy to murder a woman" lyrics in the deftones these days, so I assume Chino's views towards women have changed also. Men especially in that error were encouraged to be predators, so if you feel bad about your actions speak up explicitly. Denounce it. Stop making it seem cool. It's actually not badass, it's you being a week asshole leach. No one makes movies glamorizing slave owners as badasses.
What's funny is that i didn't even know anything about motley crue before watching so i didn't have the bias being a fan or a 40 yr old man but i still fell into every trap. The level of misogyny was about what i expected so i was unshaken by the use of women as props or sex symbols or user groupies. And the cheating. I definitely got the impression that the ex fiance was crazy and the punch was basically an accident. Came out still liking Tommy. Vince was a womanizer but ultimately pretty level headed and how nice he only wants to be a good dad. The overall impression was definitely "frat boy shenanigans with occasional consequences" rather than "horrendous violations of human decency"
It's frustrating how the comments for that review poo poo it for "revisionism" or being "PC" and that "that's how things were in the 80's", but fail to realize the movie itself is NOT an 80's film. You can depict horrible things in movies, so long as you frame it correctly in regards to what we know about human rights today. I mean, look at something like Sorry to Bother You. It depicts racism, but it's not framed to say "boy, isn't that a cool thing? Bad, but secretly cool?" I feel like people don't understand the concept of revisionism, especially when they're claiming the reviewer wants revisionism....even though the movie their defending is extremely guilty of revisionism in how it depicts the band's treatment of women.
I think the objection is that turning The Dirt into a treatise on gender power dynamics as seen through the feminist lense would make it far less entertaining to watch for the average person. This is a Motley Crue biopic for God's sake.
Do me a favor and tell me your life story. Spare no details and skip no mistakes, errors or bad judgements. I'll count how many times you say but (both implicit and explicit buts).
@@apstanford no one made them create a revisionary movie of their "life story". If they didnt want to honestly depict their mistakes then why make a movie about "both the good and the bad" Its just dishonest. I would not make such a movie about myself, for that exact reason. Because they weren't required to make this, the excuse you are trying to spin for them make no sense.
Joe Average its not about perfection. I'm merely pointing out the fact that the pot is calling the kettle black. Its hypocritical to condemn someone for doing something that you do as well. How about you use a little critical thinking before labeling my argument a fallacy.
Would have liked the movie more if Grunge fans showed up in the 90s portion, and basically be like the students of 21 Jump Street reboot, Kurt Cobain was like the OG SJW
The Slovenian flag is in the skillshare ad at 02:49 and I just wanted to share this glorious moment, because lord knows my tiny country never gets mentioned. ever. Thank you for reading haha
When I was thirteen I was a HUGE mötley crue fan. They were my favorite band and I watched any video I could find on TH-cam. I covered my walls with posters of them, wore their tshirts and badges, I read Nikki Sixx's Heroin Diaries and The Dirt, I saw them live when they came to my country. But after the star-glazed look in my eyes faded I realised there was absolutely nothing in them. I was young and loving their look and badassness, but after hearing "🎶girls girls girls🎶" a million times I was tired of it all. Especially after I had listened to more Hanoi Rocks and had Hanoi stuff on vinyl and on CD and on cassette and a 1000 page Michael Monroe memoir read in two days. After seeing how Mötley Crue absolutely downplayed Vince Neil drunk driving and killing Hanoi Rocks' drummer Razzle... I was done. Done with them and with L.A./sex drugs rocknroll/Hollywood crap. Nowadays I'm a self-proglaimed feminist, musiclover and straight-edge and can't find any appeal in them. Their music is boring, it has always been boring. But it was never the point, the point was a lifestyle of not caring and recklessness. If there ever even was any "point". I can understand how young fans today see this film and think "fuck yeah, that's rock n roll!" and don't see what they actually were and ARE (!!! this is not a case of "things were different back then") as people. My friend from those fandays posted on instagram her watching this film.. I wonder what she saw, golden nostalgia that drowns everything else? Because how can she ignore everything that Mötley Crue themselves wanted to be portrayed as in this film? I'm happy that I grew up and had my own thoughts and didn't spend too much time in that self-centered crap they preach. I'm sad that they're "classic" and still have movies being made of them, when the band and people in it are pure crap and not in the ~cool~ way they think they are. It's weird to me that people still are brainlessly defending them and everything they do. It's music and you can listen to them and it's not a big deal.. but yeah, use your brains people. And don't do heroin.
I think part of the issue is how the film handles the term "even handed", essentially just treating it as a licence to dump uncomfortable moments onto the screen and then never go into depth on them. This has the result of telling the audience to just dismiss these things. I Unfortunately there is a large constituency that seems to believe that this is the real way to be even handed, that any extended examination is really just picking a side.
Ironic that a band so concerned with appearing edgy would one day wind-up pushing this sanitized, watered down, mainstream friendly version of their story.
There was a young Nikki getting abused by a step father, Young Nikki cutting himself, Nikki setting his arm on fire, Vince fucking some guy's girlfriend and a girl squirting, and that was just in the start of the movie. They put the film on Netflix so they could have more freedom to show what crazy shit they did as much as they were allowed to. They were already pushing the X rated limits as far as possible. If constant sex, nudity, drug use, violence, ant snorting and piss licking is "mainstream friendly," then I'm curious to see what you consider non-mainstream friendly.
@@timothymclean I propose all red-blooded Americans should be taught Church Slavonic as their first language. That or Welsh. Because sounding like you're gargling leaves will GUARANTEE RESPECT GOD DAMMIT.
I like Motley Crue, and when I watched The Dirt the first time around, I liked it. I did realize that it was probably a whitewashed depiction, but I didn’t bother to look into it. Thank you for exposing the REAL dirt. This video is an important one, and I’m glad you made it. I do also believe in separating the artist from the art, so while the members of the bands are beyond shitty people, I still like their music. However, I don’t think I’ll ever watch The Dirt again
3:45 I just looked up in youtube search bar "why starship troopers is right" just to double check and uhh, sargon made an a 1 hour 23 minute video on starship troopers. Yikes
i’m SO glad i came across a video about this omg i remember just being absolutely astounded by how they chose to portray themselves you can almost hear the band over the director’s shoulder going “hey make sure we look cool” “you’re gonna make us look cool right?” “don’t forget to make us look cool”... and somehow that movie is what they think looks cool.
I dont find myself agreeing with a lot of the criticism here. The dirt was an autobiography written by the members of the band. A blatantly biased and idealised narrative, obviously they will glorify themselves and not focus as much on the negatives. if you go into the movie expecting a fair and sympathetic depiction your just fooling yourself. Imo (not a fan of the band or the movie)
I don't think the movie is implying that Tommy's mother called his fiancé a groupie because of the way she looked, I think it was because Greek is her first language and she heard Tommy talk about groupies as a good thing. I don't think she realized it was a derogatory term because of the language barrier. Even her body language seemed happy or excited not judgemental. My grandparents first language is Italian and they have had similar experiences, obviously not to this severity though. A lot of the time it's pretty funny.
Elyse Nardo really? I thought that until I saw the expression on her face...she doesn’t seem regretful and kind of glad she offended her. If she really didn’t mean it, this even further vilifies Honey because she’s really getting upset over a misunderstanding, not the mom saying something offensive on purpose
Mary P. To me she just seems confused honestly. I could be wrong though, but the move does describe how normal and supportive Tommy's family was so it seems out of character. I think it was a misunderstanding, and the girl was just a bad egg. It still doesn't excuse Tommy's behaviour though
Ironically if they were more faithfuk to the truth they might serve to gain more empathy despite fucked up actions, but when shit is swept under a rug it inspires more critical looks
I did feel this way watching the film and felt the same way watching Straight Outta Compton but I think it was also worth mentioning the fact that in the movie Mick Mars criticizes his own bandmates treatment of women too.
Funnily enough, I have no problem with films/tv shows depicting violence against women or violence of any kind. It's how that violence is *framed* that I have a problem with and that's where this movie went wrong.
Hey folks! Reminder that if you use the promo code skl.sh/jacksaint3 you'll get TWO FREE MONTHS of Skillshare! It's a good deal for a cool service, and Skillshare likes when I get people signed up!
I hope this video inspires some thoughts for all of you, whether that's further consideration for the difficulties of 'authentic' biopic film-making, how we can handle the zeitgeist of public opinion in fiction, or just what a white knight cuck I am. In any case, I look forward to reading your comments! Have a wonderful week.
PATREON: www.patreon.com/jacksaint
KO-FI: ko-fi.com/lackingsaint
TWITTER: twitter.com/LackingSaint
STORE: www.teepublic.com/stores/jack-saint-store
TWITCH: www.twitch.tv/lacksaint
@Breno Ferreira I think Patrick Willems' video on Music Biopics (which is great) says pretty much everything I would currently have to comment on, but if I do think of anything novel to say I'll definitely consider it!
@@LackingSaint Excellent Job, dismantling the Crue mythos!!
I said something about being pretty sad about Lee beating up a Jewish man & calling him slurs, & then having his swastika tattoo removed before court.
I've received the most threats yet (from my Extremely humanitarian comments).
★ So TY ★💗🇨🇦👍🏼🇨🇦💗 I LOVE this channel!!
SKILLSHARE!
Where is the background music around 18:40 from?
It sounds nice.
That was the first skillshare ad that actually convinced me to sign up for it, intend to cancel in two months, and then probably forget until 2020.
“That’s just what the times were like back then.”
Pretty sure assault was illegal in the 80’s.
Not to mention the implication that bands from the 80s without rapists didn't exist
Hmmm a great band with great music vs some bitch. I definitely don't care about what they did to women
@@Krastinos
- Motley Crue
- Great music
Good one
Pietro Pastine Hear that, guys? It’s ok to assault women if you make good music!
@@brandonk.4864 Obviously.... Harvey Weinstein is innocent because I liked Scary Movie
Adding onto the topic of this video, but not about women, Vince Neil was in an infamous drunk driving incident where he was drunk (blood level at 0.17, above the legal limit at the time) and crashed his car while swerving into oncoming traffic after losing control of his car, and killing Razzle, drummer of Finnish rock band Hanoi Rocks, along with severely injuring the two drivers in the other car, those injuries include giving them brain damage.
The movie made it out to be that Vince was at best buzzed, but still sober and conscious enough to drive, and was distracted by a conversation with Razzle.
Bad
Step 1: Blame the victim.
Step 2: You already lost in life.
This is sick. 😤
Don't forget how the movie then shifts the narrative from "holy shit Vince killed a guy" to "hey Nikki and Tommy just found heroin and they left poor Vince Neil in jail for 17 days, it was literally hell for Vince and his friends weren't there for him"
Not surprising. The script had to be filtered through every member of the Motley Crue. So of course the movie turns out to depict them as sympathetic and/or blameless. It's either "we're not to blame, we were the product of the time" or "we were just dumb kids drunk on fame". It's Motley Crue's PR propaganda, which is why I don't buy it one bit.
That's really not how I read it. I just saw it as he was drunk/high so he wasn't sensible enough to keep an eye on the road when talking to his friend and didn't have strong enough reactions. Maybe you're right but idk
It's funny that Tommy called a 30 year old woman a little girl when his current wife is in her 30's as well, so does he also consider his wife a little girl?
Meh. He is 23 years older than her.
In fact, she would've been in diapers when Home Sweet Home came out.
I'm sure he does and he's probably super disrespectful about it. Guys like dating much younger women so they can call them stupid and blame any of their reactions to their mistreatment on them being immature.
*some
Only when he needs to belittle her in an (arguably) misogynist manner.
That would explain a lot.
Artist worship leads to some pretty dark places
Have you watched struccimovies essays on parasocial relationships called fake friends?
Death of the Author is the best way to view any media.
@@Lyce_Mia No, but now I definitely will. Thank you for the recommendation!
@@Lyce_Mia Ooooh me too thanks for the recommend it seems interesting
I'm a huge Motley Crue fan and alot of things they've dont I can laugh at
For the other shit:
I dont see the Nikki story as rape, just really goddamn stupid
Tommy and Pamela I didnt take a side and instead said they were both wrong
Tommy hitting Honey: I still dont feel bad for her even in the book version
Vince: can he at learn from ANYTHING he does and God the law sucks at handling him
I think the most hilarious part about those comments cited in the video was that all of them are basically saying "well back then things were just like this, and if you're offended by that, then you're just being a wimp and flinching away from history" but like... no! it's exactly the opposite! the people who know what the band's history actually consists of are asking for *more* dark content to be depicted on the screen please! *more* of the offensive stuff, and actually framed as bad please! because it actually happened... and to shove it under the rug *the way the movie does* is much more revisionist than saying, definitively, "this happened, and it was wrong."
what commenters like that really want is for people to stop questioning the idea that using women as props for a man's good time is all part of the fun. true male indulgence is supposed to include lots of disposable women to use however they please, offered up with the same ease and excess as other commodities such as drugs and alcohol. viewing women as fully human characters in the narrative, and fully human people in life, runs directly counter to this sort of thing... and the main strategy to combat any criticism offered up by literally anyone at all, is to flippantly dismiss it as PC culture ruining everything.
this mindset is a product of pure selfishness.
Aren't those comments basically using a false dilemma fallacy ? It's either The Dirt is, well, the way it is OR it is (/would otherwise be) an ultra-PC movie that rewrite history. No in-between, those are just the two choices there seems to be.
@@xeno-kun983 yup! and the assumption that an ultra-PC movie would rewrite history, instead of showing history as it was and putting it on blast, doesn't make any sense anyway. literally any other option would make more sense than that.
@@mehwhatever9483 True. A *politically correct movie* and a *movie which accurately depicts history* aren't two mutually exclusive things.
But anyway, if I'm not mistaken, if those comments are basically a false dilemma fallacy then I got to wonder : are those people using it aware of that ? See the things about logical fallacies is there are basically two groups using them. Those with mischievous intent and those (sorry for the scorn) who are too dumb to realize they're using a fallacy.
I've always been incredibly worried by the latter category. Especially since I've started watching people like Hbomber, Shaun or Three Arrows. Cause at least, a guy with mischievous intent knows he's full of shit. That guy scares me less than an idiot who believes himself to be right. Fallacies are used to derail the conversation. An idiot believing himself to be right using unknowingly tactics to derail the conversation is disquieting.
I think these are people who care more about the results than how they get there. whether or not they can identify the fallacies by name or say how they work, they probably know they’re doing something stupid. but it doesn’t matter. the people who agree with them will just nod along one way or another, and the people who don’t agree? they’re the ones who actually have to deal with how stupid they’re being. trolls can string a smart person along forever just by continuing to be stupid against all logic. you can explain and explain, and all they have to do is keep pulling more bullshit out of left field, which they can do into eternity. doesn’t change the fact that they were always gonna believe what they believe... they don’t care who’s right.
like I said earlier, the idea behind the “logic” is that they want to justify the idea of disposable women as an essential part of male hyper indulgence. this is an inherently selfish desire... they couldn’t get what they want by appealing to anyone with an actual stake in asserting that this kind of behavior is shitty. so they make enemies out of any dissenters. they aren’t interested in what anyone has to say... they’re interested in annoying you, and reinforcing the beliefs of anyone who already agrees.
Support the death of humanity
Do the right thing
Jack, your interpretation would imply that women are people. Can't have that.
WOMEN ARE MARY SUE
THIRD WAVE FEMINISM KILLED MY ENTIRE FAMILY
IF SHE BREATHES SHE'S A THOT
Bemundolack A FEMINAZI BROKE INTO MY ROOM AND ATE MY ASS
ANITA SARKESSIAN BROKE INTO MY HOME AND TOOK MY ANAL VIRGINITY WITH A NINTENDO SWITCH. THAT'S WHY WE NEED GAMERGATE FOLKS.
My mom was raped as a teenager in the 80s, and it still haunts her to this day. "That's just how things were back then" as IF that makes it ok to ignore abuse and rape without addressing the trauma that followed :/
People are afraid of things they like being bad. Logic doesn't matter as much as their mint condition vinyls.
I’m so sorry, I hope your mom is doing okay
@@spookyho5994 tysm. she's had a hard life, but now she's living me, my brother and my stepdad; they were high school sweethearts and they just got married last year 💙 she's the happiest she's ever been
The women that were groupies back then chose to lower themselves to that kind of debauchery. They weren't raped. I'm not denying what your mom went through, but it has nothing to do with this
@@hofstad2598 That’s such a cartoonishly evil thing to say about anyone, genuinely. If you have any women in your life who care about you, I’d hope they don’t see that comment.
Being a producer in your own biopic is like when those "scientific" studies that come out, praising some food product like butter, are actually funded by Land O'Lakes.
"In this new study funded by Cocacola, we found that drinking coke makes your heart stronger!"
Or those studies against Global Warming non-peer reviewed and authored by a think tank funded by a subsidiary of the Koch Brothers
Well maybe they wanted to oversee the movie being made about out them to make sure it is faithful to their story so that when it's released millions of people will know their truth instead of a falsehood the way that bohemian rhapsody was. Just a thought.
or covid vaccine research funded by pfizer
@@hofstad2598 but most people sanitize their past as they clearly did. It’s not that crazy they shouldn’t be proud of it but either make a fun biopic or show they were shitty in all the ways they were at the time
You know, I can think of a good example of a film where the camera focuses on the batterer rather than the victim, that still sides with the victim. It’s even a music biopic: ‘What’s Love Got To Do With It?’ Often we see Ike more than Tina in the violent scenes. But that works because of what it shows: not just how he hits her, but how he sights on her, hits, takes aim, hits again - in other words, how chillingly deliberate it is. Total opposite of ‘He was provoked then he was sorry’: it’s full-on ‘asshole did it on purpose.’
Also, of course, we get to see the effect on her in other scenes.
So yeah, lots of ways to depict battery without condoning it; no excuse really.
You know that makes me curious. But at the same time I can watch no portrayal of domestic violence at all. So..
Yeah, it’s upsetting, so if that’s something you don’t care to watch ... probably not the one to make an exception for. It’s a good movie, but pretty gruelling.
You are absolutely right! That was an excellent movie!! Angela Bassett was so amazing in it!
@Kit Whitfield Thank you for reminding me of much this movie still remains one of my top favorite childhood/music biopic movies of all time!
Morgan Carroll I agree, and Samuel Jackson [edit: sorry, Laurence Fishburne, thanks for catching that Deana J] too. He does something I don’t think I’ve seen in any other movie featuring intimate partner violence: he draws a subtle distinction between anger and outrage. Ike isn’t really hitting Tina/Anna May because he’s angry: he is, but really he’s outraged, because he feels absolutely justified in expecting that he should have control at all times and she should never view him with anything less than awe and gratitude. Hence the deliberateness of the violence: he’s doing it strategically, to cow her back into submission, and to re-assert (to himself as much as to her) that he’s the boss. It’s a truly frightening performance, because he so clearly will never feel remorse. He feels he’s doing the right thing.
I mean, if you're gonna fictionalize your band so much it's basically unrecognizable to actual reality, why not just have them join the X-Men or something. At least that would be fun.
Also the voices for those comments are too good.
Dude, I'd watch Queen but they're actually the X-men!
put zeppelin in the next justice league thx
It sounds almost like someone read the words backward, then the audio of THAT was reversed. Cool effect if so.
That is basically what Yellow Submarine is lol
@@davidcolby167 They're born to be kings. They're princes of the universe.
I was surprised that Honey stabbing Tommy was completely made up and that she didn't even assault him. That's a ridiculously extreme hatchet job. The scene was basically designed to be the most sympathetic possible depiction of domestic violence.
She did stab him once with a butter knife tho
@@tuson8741 Ah, so they were merging separate incidents? Still pretty bad then but not quite as ridiculous as completely fabricating a stabbing.
@@wfjhDUI yeah its still fucked up. But she abused him multiple times as well. The girl was jealous as hell (i believed she stabbed him just because a female friend of tommy calles). Still it's no excuse to hit back ofc. Then again tommy was full of booze and god knows what kinda drugs.
Called*
@@tuson8741 Why would it not be an excuse to hit back? Surely the principle of self defense doesn't vanish when you're in a relationship. Although it should be proportional and actually in self defense, of course. Then you should break up, or at least separate until the attacker get their shit together.
Considering that This Is Spinal Tap exists, and perfectly made fun of every single trope in these sorts of films, I'm shocked generic rock biopics/docs are still made.
And Walk Hard. Together these two movies absolutely destroy every overdone trope these biopics keep using
rattyeely I love Walk Hard. 😂
I love This is Spinal Tap. I wish they still made movies like it today.
There's a British version with one of the guys from Breakfast on Pluto
Found it, it was Stephen Rea in Still Crazy
Motley Crue was my favorite band in middle school, and I really wanted to live their notorious rock n roll lifestyle, but reading the Dirt in 8th grade was genuinely effective as a cautionary tale and I think that book really helped me avoid several life choices. It's a shame the movie adaptation is just a sanitized celebration of that excess with some vague sense of regret just to make it seem like it had a point.
That was exactly how I felt about it. The Dirt itself is a wildly cautionary tale, and it's framed by everyone involved as a 'this was bad and fucked up and you shouldn't do it or be like us' but the movie makes it seem like it's all just a silly sanitary good time and that's really not the point of the whole thing.
And showing the bad parts in framing of being justified helps nobody and does nothing but to make it seem like the band members have always and still are like that regardless of whether they have grown as actual people or not.
Great movie
I find it odd and amusing that the angry commenters are responding as though critics wanted a film that whitewashes and sanitizes the band's sordid lifestyle. If anything, it's quite the opposite: the framing consistently makes excuses, deflects responsibility, or downplays the consequences of the band members' behaviour.
What an interesting perspective that totally isn't exactly what was conveyed by the video essay we just watched.
@@Doc_Fun What? The commenter made an observation about the criticizers of the reviews. Sure, it's not the main point of the video, but it was still featured in it. Sasha is allowed to highlight a certain part if he/she wants to. Your snark is sadly misplaced.
@@aswaney7449 they are paraphrasing what had already been said in an attempt to rally against naysayers on a video populated mostly by people who agree with the video, and on a video that again, has already stated what OP went out of their way to state. It's unnecessary and sort of annoying, so i'll place my snark where I like, thanks.
It was portrayed that way because that’s what happened...they got away with those things in real life. That’s the bigger issue to me. I don’t have a problem with the movie, I have a problem with the reality of “if you’re rich and famous you can get away with anything”
@@brittnay279 Would've been interesting to explore how and why they got away of it, instead the old "they were rebels! It was the 80s!" drivel
This reminds me of how I grew to dislike The Disaster Artist film after reading the book. The film led me to believe that Greg's journey with the wacky Tommy had its bumps, but in the end they followed their dreams of making a movie people would enjoy (even if for the wrong reasons). The book brutally corrected me with the truth that Greg was an up and coming actor so desperate to get his foot in the door, that he worked with an unstable and potentially dangerous man who obsessed over Greg to creepy stalker levels.
TDA the film couldn't possibly show this perspective because Tommy is "obviously" the happy-go-lucky nut who said "You are TEARING ME APART, Lisa!" What a silly guy! Let's watch the actors in a shot-for-shot and nearly second-to-second recreation of those scenes in The Room that everyone memes to death! Yeah, Tommy didn't provide food, water, or even basic air conditioning on set, but everybody eventually pulled through, no worries!
@kevin willems Greg illustrates a much darker side to Tommy that I feel the movie tones down. I got a much better sense of Tommy's verbal abuse and manipulation through the book (wish I could give exact examples at the moment, but it's been a while since I last read it. Don't want to give misleading information). Similar to the book's cover art, Tommy was a ticking time bomb, and Greg does a great job building up to that explosion.
After reading the book, I concluded that The Disaster Artist movie is basically a better-written version of The Room (and surface-level fanservice for people who ironically love Tommy's masterpiece). But it's lackluster in truly capturing the hopeless spiral Greg found himself in by starting a friendship with this bizarre man.
(Edgy clickbait version of my comment: The Disaster Artist movie is a "Disneyfied" version of its source material.)
Yeah, I agree. I read the book first and I found Greg Sestero's conflicted view of what happened really interesting - his relationship w/Tommy Wiseau was and is pretty fucked up even though it ultimately secured his longterm career and his livelihood. The movie completely glossed over Wiseau's manipulative tendencies, verbal abuse against people and sexism in favour of making him a likeable protagonist.
@kevin willems Go get it! It's really a joy to read, even though the story gets pretty dark. It's just so interesting.
That makes me so sad, like I fell into the trap of thinking he was just quirky and eccentric and possibly an ancient eldritch being
What kind of killed the film for me was the ending where everyone laughed their heads off at the premiere. I wasn't there, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's the kind of reaction a large audience would have on first seeing the movie. The Room wasn't a commercial block buster. It was a cult success. People going in expecting to see a "real" movie would have just tuned out instead of laughing their heads off at the things we eventually found to appreciate about the film.
It's funny how saying that you want a biopic to give more attention to the more violent, tense and polemical subjects is "PC" but wanting to keep nostalgic feelings with a cookie-cutter rockstar story is edgy, hardcore and "80's".
Is it too much to ask for both a realistic look at a non-PC lifestyle while also maintaining an interesting insight into the psychology of the era and characters? I don't think so.
He didn't say it was 80s edgy, he is saying it is a misstepresentstion of the facts
A lot of reactionaries seem to just use "PC" to refer to anything actually giving consideration to the viewpoint of women, racial minorities, or THE GAYS, rather than referring to how sanitized a piece of media is. A lot of these supposedly "anti-PC" warriors seem perfectly content with overtly and unrealistically sanitized content when it's positively reflecting the conservative status quo.
@@ldallas8315 You noticed that too?
@@ldallas8315 Please in simple words for the people in the back
The fact that the scene with the ex-fiancé was shown before any other scenes with her shows that the director is trying to frame her in an unsympathetic way. If the scene of her cheating was placed after the other scenes, the audience could possibly sympathize with her.
Might not be the director. Could have been an editor or producer. Like there could have been an earlier scene that was cut (haven't seen the film so I'm not sure how much sense that would make). Or even just the screen writer. Not necessarily the director. Although considering it's an ex fiance and the band were involved themselves, it's of course entirely possible they wanted to frame her in a negative light out of pure spite.
Cheaters are assholes though.
@@lainiwakura1776 Sometimes people get stuck into abusive relationships and, since the cost of leaving that relationship could scale even to death (it's way more common than you think), they just "cheat" because is the only viable way to get something that gets near to love and happiness.
Dont be a dick and listen more please.
@@lainiwakura1776 except when is a guy, when is a guy we just don't care.
Benjamín Carmona yeah no cheaters are assholes. If you’re unhappy, then leave. It’s that simple
Edit: as someone who has been cheated on, I can’t really sympathize with people who do that.
That angry text to speech voice for ppattison2004 is fantastic
*inconsiderate of someone else's opinion
FTFY
@@spencerhayes1993 just reading your comment in that voice now
@@jacksonstauffer5107 k
@@spencerhayes1993 You mean like how ppattison2004 is inconsiderate of the people the band hurt by just going "it was the 80's man?" But don't let things like that get in the way of calling someone using a funny text to speech voice the inconsiderate one.
I fucking pulled a muscle laughing at it. Oh my god
"Let's rewrite history so it's PC and in tune with modern thought"
I know that guy meant that as a sarcastic attack on the review, but the movie basically did that.
I love all the Motley Crue/Dirt movie defenders referring to the 80s as though it were ye olden days where people all acted under a completely different ideology.
"You can't think of the 80s with your modern lens" like what??? That's how you talk about Shakespeare, not the Motley Crue. It was literally only 30~ years ago.
Edit: how do I turn off notifications for a comment
tbf, 2 entire generations (well, at least one and 5/6ths of one) were not alive during the 80s.
40 years
@@fartface8918 30-39 years.
The band was already old when Nirvana came out, which was very sympathetic to women, discussing female abuse such as "Rape Me", kinda bizarre the movie sidestep the cultural shift of Grunge, and just blame Vince leaving for the band 90s downfall
I don't think that perspective is valid in the first place, tbh. What, we can't criticize slavery (or, if we cut to the chase, specific slave owners we still want to idolize) because "it was a different time"?
This promotes the ridiculous notion that no-one in any previous era of history could recognize the injustices of their time, which is both hilariously reductive and demonstrably false.
Those who promote this idea are simply trying to preserve their fantasy of an era, to feel like it's okay to endorse or adore something "problematic" or, if they actually lived through it, avoid feeling responsible for their participation.
I mean, it's important to acknowledge the context in which people live(d), but that in no way makes them immune to criticism. We certainly don't apply this reasoning to other cultures/religions/etc.
Wow, so they made excuses for him punching her? That's messed up
Ye, they are only allowed to make excuses for violence women do to men in society today. You tell them!
@@thejollysloth5743 She didn't hit him first in real life. What are you talking about?
@@thejollysloth5743 violence is bad from anybody? O-e?
@@thejollysloth5743 I've never seen anyone argue for that sort of position, but I've seen a lot of random guys on the Internet argue against it.
...
Wow, the lefties must be even crazier than I thought!
@@thejollysloth5743 That's not what Madeleine said... or even hinted at.
I'm so tired of women being abused being used in stories just as a plot point to the male characters........... ew
It's not just abuse, though it's definitely more common than other examples. A lot of time the suffering of a woman (death, emotional trauma, physical injury through other means, etc.) is used only to forward a man's story and no info is given about how the woman is effected.
Aren't all women
@Blank Space Provided rather not used at all
Amen
To be fair, if your gonna tell the story of Motley Crue that’s how you gotta do it. Women were literally just objects to them
me and my mom refuse to watch this because we know they changed so much of the story to make a cutesy Hollywood movie that doesn't show any of the terrible repercussions that they had on others. my mom dated nikki for a bit and toured with them and the way they treated her was terrible. i hope this movie crashes and that people know that it mostly glossed over what they did and how they treated women.
Right, my real problem isn’t the portrayal in the movie (sorry I watched it) but rather the fact they were aloud to treat people like this and they still are rich and famous...there were no real repercussions in the movie because there weren’t any in real life! The movies not really the issue...they way we treat wealth and fame is the problem.
Brittnay Does I agree my dude celebrities can get away with such shit but at least nowadays it’s being called out a bit more so hopefully we won’t have to deal with such terrible things in the future
Brittnay Does however I see people praising this movie as if it really shows who and what they were and I know it’s a biopic but dude,, like jack says if you’re going to frame it as the some worst of the things you did why would you Change it to a completely different event to seemingly make it a less edgy or as harmful as it actually was
Nilly Sigger you’re annoying lol
@Nilly Sigger There are people in the world who could love you
If we're fictionalizing real bands... Then let's make fictional bands to tell the story of real bands.
So, vocaloids
Antibot hmm... I'd watch that tbh.
@@antibot9804 Vocaloids but BETTER
So, The Gorillaz?
The movie you're looking for is Almost Famous :)
It’s like Bohemian Rhapsody, but instead of the historical revisionism done to highlight the talent and illuminate the experience of marginalized groups via a once-in-a-generation talent and his integral friendship with bandmates, it’s to avoid the entire band being rightfully associated with rape and battery.
ZanraiKid bo rap was trash
@@DiegoMartinez-ur7gi I disagree with you, but I hope we can all agree it's better than this Motley Crue movie
@@AK-jl2wm this Motley Crue movie was awesome in my opinion
@@AK-jl2wm Undoubtedly Bohemian Rhapsody was better than this netflix trash, but it's still bad. Just not as bad as The Dirt. It takes entire events out of context and out of order and puts the story of Queen into the standard musical artist/band movie.
So another case of "stop poking holes in my nostalgia for a media product and making me feel like a bad person"?
@DrumWild Everyone's dad, basically
It's fun to smoke juvenoia
It's called the Dirt because it's dirt
Don't insult dirt. Atleast you can grow stuff on dirt.
@@kesorangutan6170
Mother Earth is too nice to us, and this is how we treat her, smh
But to be fair, some poisonous things could grow up on that movie.
If you really wanna go full tilt boogie, Motley Crew is also a terrible band, too! XD
@@spritelady4669 Motley Crew isn't a band Motley Crue however is an awesome one
rattyeely even dirt is better than this
Wai-wai-wait. Wait a minute. Your hair. It's gorgeous.
I'd bang.
Good comment, op
Better hair than Motley Crue's back in the 80s?
GOALS
I was thinking the same! 😸
The movie really should have been titled 'The Top Soil."
haha good one.
This is probably the only thing I will ever know about the Motley Crue. So I guess that was advertising money well spent by them.
Based on the number of British actors playing the band members, I thought Motley Crue was from the UK.
Until I watched this video.
Also my only other point of reference for them was hearing the name Tommy Lee and being like, wait, Pamela Anderson's ex husband?
@@lnfreeman
Let’s not act for a second that tommy lee is less famous than Pam lol.
That's the thing. I love rants about movies I'm never going to watch. This was just what I wanted.
I realize I have no ability to make this seem sincere, but I am.
Honestly rants about movies I'm never going to watch is my kink
Did anyone else conclude that pppatterson2004 is clearly 15?
It's only April, he could be 14 for a few months, yet.
Either 15 or 45
As a 15 year old, I genuinely can't wait till my birthday hits so I never have to be associated with these types of idiots again.
Yeet as a 15 year old, same
Yeet Lmao they’ll just age with you. Their will always be cringe people your age.
Huh you didn't mention Vince's cancer daughter, who because never went through through puberty was framed as perfect (there's alot to say about that), also the movie cut out Nikki's grandma's Nona, who was a positive female influence to Nikki, writing a song out of guilt for failing to attend her funeral
I actually thought Sharise (Charise?), Vince's wife, escaped the madonna-whore complex thing, being the only female character that was explored for more than two seconds... or maybe she just fulfilled all the roles a patriarchal order offers to women (beloved-whore-wife-sexy mother-virginal mother-crone) and that was enough by comparison.
NIKKI is a POS. He not only missed Nona,s funeral but his kid sisters who the night they had a concert a mile from where she lay NEVER EVEN TOOK THE TIME TO SEE HER B 4 SHE DIED. Nikki only cares about nikki.
This'll teach those born in the wrong generation kids!
Greta Van Fleet is shaking.
I love this satire more thanks to the fact that literally no millennial I know would care an ounce for this ancient has-been band.
@@TheDanishGuyReviews Brutal. I love it!
The intro was weird with Nikki narrating how terrible the 80s was, as if he was Bob Dylan providing a voice of a generation, only the band was basically a representation of the problems of the 80s, excessive capitalism, cocaine abuse, mistreatment of women, flash to cover up emptiness... and I like their music
@@TheDanishGuyReviews The 70's were better than the 80's for music. The best 80's musical development was synth, and the best bands were leftovers from the 70's and maybe stuff like The Cure.
It's not like women who were famous groupies back in the day haven't talked about the rape, assault and grooming they witnessed. It's just that the people who think of these times as fun and saucy romps literally don't give a single fuck. Both because they don't want stains on their nostalgia goggles and also because they couldn't care less about what a woman says. Especially if she's been a "slutty" groupie. She's not believed at best and straight up being told she deserved it at worst. It's gonna take a long time until we may finally have a discussion about the abhorrent behavior of beloved bands.
I felt the way it handled drug addiction also shows this nostalgic, retrospective justification. We never really get the drugs presented as destroying the band members (almost certainly too contributing to how they treated people, considering they were always drunk or snorting coke). I felt the handling of these things just glamorised what really should or could have been a lowpoint to the narrative; considering your video now I think this is really the same problem with how they glamorised the band being dicks to women/their friends and coworkers.
Bohemian Rhapsody (to a decent extent) avoided this trap, and Lords of Chaos definitely did. So watching this rockumentary after those two really just made me think "hey, this is fun, but i dont think i should be finding it fun"
Great comment.
Yup. Exactly this.
Eeeh.. Drugs amplify.. If you're nice, you won't become an utter arse, but if you are one, it gets easier.
So if you're raised in a culture privileging men in some way and devaluing in other, leading to resentment, this can then be lived out because drugs make it harder to say no to things you know you shouldn't say yes to.
Well that’s a problem with portraying drug abuse...it IS fun. And then it suddenly isn’t. It’s also different because they were rich...most issues that most addicts experience could be fixed by having a lot of money. I imagine if you’re a rockstar you aren’t worrying about bills or how to get your next fix or getting ripped off or going to jail since you probably get drugs delivered. I’m not saying being a drug addict if you’re rich is okay, but it’s definitely not relatable to being a regular person addicted to drugs.
You watch heroin (specifically but also drinking) tear the band apart, what are you on about? And Lord of Chaos is a movie riddled with made up information that bears little resemblance to what actually happened by most accounts of people who were active in the black metal scene at the time.
...my middle aged dad did love this movie.
My older mum did too.
I'm 45 - so middle aged - & refuse to watch it cos I distinctly remember what assholes they were.
I KNEW they'd dumb it down & true to form? They did.
By dumb it down, I mean misogyny it up whilst lying & making excuses.
*oof*
My middle aged dad also loved it, he told us about it in the car. His teenage daughter hates it and would probably rather watch Despicable Me 2 while being his violently with a gardening hoe.
@@dumpstercub2902 If you're the daughter? 'm so 😞❤️sorry your dad & my mum have kinda iffy taste in movies & bands.
@@AmberAmberCould be worse
"If you look at, say, Starship Troopers..." What, you're asking me to go watch the movie again, then maybe listen to the soundtrack afterwards, then watch Robocop because Paul Verhoeven? I mean, if you insist!
Robocop has no right to be as good as it is.
@@oof-rr5nf ermagerd I know, right? All of Veroheven's sci fi is legit fantastic.
Just criminalize music biopics already
Paul Haragan it’s a joke you moron.
@@thejollysloth5743 "Yes, make anything you don't like illegal"
- subscriber to Timcast and Gavin McInnes
🤔🤔🤔
@@daytripper1023 Yeah, but not a very funny one. Paul obviously reacted according to the caricatured understanding he has of "lefties," but Elise's sense of humor still sucks. (Couldn't she at least have been a little more specific about what gets criminalized in this joke scenario?)
@@timothymclean music biopics suck. thats the joke.
Trash Rabbit, Duke of Bad Habits, Shellac Addict and Jimmy Dore...
When the Queen film came out. People said how it wasn't accurate to what actually happened. And how it gave the band a softer friendly light. So when I saw the trailer for this I figured it was going to be the same thing with this film. A few years back I read Nikki Six's book that had entries from his drugged up cocaine phase. So I knew this wasn't going to show that dark side a human. Like the whole band were asshole and they know it. Glossing over that fact just make them look fake and a bunch sellouts.
The movie glosses over a lot of the horrible stuff that happens in the book-- sexism, abuse, harassment, etc, etc. They really worked hard to make the band sympathetic, but then also glossed over Vince Neil's daughter and her illness and death, which would have made him theoretically more sympathetic :/
fr they were like "oh yeah this lil girl dead...anyways, MOTLEY FUCKING CREW" lmaooooo
That's me. Trying to prove how Punk I am. Wow.
Why would anyone want to see a move about Motley Crue of all people?
They couldn’t make a movie about Guns N’ Roses so they settled lol.
Because BUD LIGHT and EGR DELETE UNGHHH I STOPPED PAYING ALIMONY AND NOW I BENCH 50 PUSSIES A _DAY_
Because they like Motley Crue, I assume.
@[redacted] The difference is I'd *pay* to see a biopic of Blue Öyster Cult.
I had this conversation recently with my sister. Motley Crue is one of the shittiest bands and part of the shittiest genre/movement in music history. They make me sick lol
So, I saw Motley Crue live in concert on their farewell tour. They put up a pretty good show, played things well. Had a strong finale with Home Sweet Home. But I wasn't there to see them, I was actually there to see their opener Alice Cooper, dude is a hero of mine. And that was awesome. But it would have been moreso, if you couldn't feel the growing impatience of the folks in the audience, and hear comments like, I shit you not, "who's this guy"? And "when is this dude gonna wrap it up"!? There wasn't a whole lot of respect for the Coop. Which is crazy, because you could make the argument that there would be no Crue without Alice to lead the way, hence them inviting him on the tour.
Many of the Crue fans seemed like people whose teenage years (the 80's) had been the best years of their lives, and then decided they would NEVER grow up (not in a fun or endearing way, more in an immature, stunted growth kind of way) kind of seems like the band, in retrospect. They put on a rad show, talented dudes, but the whole experience, and half the people who had shown up for it, left me feeling pretty bitter. To this day, as much as I used to dig Dr Feelgood, it's hard for me not to think of them with the negative feelings left over from that experience.
This might be a little off topic but I think the misogyny of the 80's hair metal bands is one of the reasons why Kurt Cobain was such a cultural zeitgeist. He was a rock star who didn't glorify treating women as objects. He states in many of his interviews that he was a feminist and that he despised these bands who were mainly just 'singing about their dicks.' All the focus on sex and partying was getting stale and people were becoming unable to relate. So it was absolutely necessary for this shift to take place, and it had to happen through music, because you win more hearts and minds through music than you do through politics. (Also off topic, hair metal sucks. It's one of my least favorite genres of music)
That's true of all whose auditory sense is fully intact.
Kind bizarre they just sidestep Grunge, and mostly blame the band downfall at the 90s soley on Vince leaving
I don't know if thats the case because look at rap music of the 90's. there is probably more misogyny in one cd produced by death row then all the hair metal bands combined. By the early 90's every band was the same and Kurt Cobain was something fresh, new, and different. ( off topic but Hair Metal is way better then the crap thats played today, sure it might get repetitive but it has more talent then allot of genres of music)
Hair metal had a huge amount of faults but it’s undeniable it had a huge impact on rock. That music also had some of the best guitar solos ever.
You’re really gonna tell me Def Leppard and Cinderella were completely terrible bands? Or that quiet riot’s metal health and the first two albums of Motley Crue weren’t actually pretty solid?
And let’s not forget how pantera (and Guns&Roses) started.
But it’s true that a lot of those bands (poison, winger, white snake) did suck ass a lot lol.
YEAH I think the end of the 80,s ushered in grunge cuz people were so sick of guys like Vince using women to keep their dicks soft & smooth.
I love Mötley Crüe's music (I have bad taste okay) but idk why they would make a biopic about them in 2019. They're just washed up has-been's at this point and they were a pretty mediocre hair metal band to begin with. This movie was completely unnecessary and a waste of money to make. Also Machine Gun Kelly
I'd wager whoever happened to own the rights to their story probably saw the money the Queen documentary made and thought "We should do that, too!"
Probably because they need positive PR before they die.
Petition for Netflix to stop putting Machine Gun Kelly in things.
when i first saw the movie advertised i told my boyfriend that mgk MUST have a contract with netflix, because they're the only acting roles he can get
Trying to remember who machine gun Kelly is, it's vaguely familiar...
We need a biopic on Nirvana now complete with Kurt Cobain's feminist rants in order to cleanse us after this movie.
I realize women are always 100% innocent victims and should never be questioned or even looked at askew, but is anyone going to mention the fact that these thots were lining up 6-deep for a chance at getting banged by one of these guys back in the day?
Alti2de Don't be mad. In your next life, you can be one too.
@@jpinnacle a) unironically using 'thot'
B) how is that relevant to to any of the criticisms made in the video
@@jpinnacleI hope you check this notification and are briefly bothered or inconvenienced.
@@jpinnacle implying that they deserved to get abused
Did they show when The Misfits and Henry Rollins chased motley crue out of the Whiskey for heckling them?
No but they showed henry rollins seeing motley cruë for the first like omg best band ever. N I was like why did Rollins let some band he never heard of much less from, just like show up and like take over a show and be like 'whoo best band forever motley c... i mean uh Henry Rollins Band forever!' *whispers* but they can open for us n be 2nd best band forever and then we'd get to see them all year *clears throat* 'I mean these guys amirite?'
That's exactly how it happened..
No context needed they just were they awesome that every known artist they crossed was just especially enamored with them
That's very hardly the most glaring part that a liberal amount of 'blur tool was used over top of.
@@T0xXx1k Holy shit did that really happen in the movie? What a sack of bullshit.
Funny how the people saying "it's just how it was back then, do you want to change history to make it pc" are not only missing the point but also are the ones defending a sugar coated, safe, version of history made to never challenge their "the 80's were a wild free time" kind of thinking
This reminds me of the people who defended XXXtentacion despite the shit he did just because they were blind to it from his music and the public persona he wanted them to see. Except... Motley Crue at least has good music.
Pink Guy Well, X actually wanted to improve himself, but was murdered shortly after that, sadly. They just want to erase the past. And his music was good, just not for everyone.
+Sophitia of Hyrule
XXXTENTACION was an absolute scumbag in his life, but I will honestly take him over Chris Brown _any_ day, not just because I prefer X’s edge-rap over Chris’s... whatever you call it, but also because, yeah, from sources close to him, X was at least _trying_ to turn his life around before dying at age 20- he was the same age as me, and nobody deserves to die that young.
Chris Brown meanwhile is 30 and he remains an unrepentant monster.
Dreigonix have you read up on the shit he did lmao? it wasn't just like.. oops i was mean to a girl once
Oh wow. I clicked thinking it's a biopic released like 5 to 10 years ago where blatant misogyny is still an acceptable trope. Nope.
Sexism and misogyny has never been an acceptable trope during the mid 80s to now
You can do insightful examinations of misogyny by rock stars. The Wall is in large part about misogyny. The difference is that it ONLY shows the worst parts of being a rockstar
The wall album or film?
Kosta Jovanovic yes, please clarify.
@@kostajovanovic3711 film.
I never got that at all from The Wall. I thought it was mainly about alienation, and how one can wall themselves off from the outside world.
@@shagohad3 Pink's relationships with his smothering mother, his ultimately unfaithful wife, his rage at the groupie he lures back to his room, and Ralph Steadman's animations explore the allure and disgust of sexuality, via it's writhing, morphing "beautiful/sickening" animations of "flowers." That makes up the majority of the narrative. Sounds pretty misogynistic to me. That's not a crime for a dramatic narrative, but let us at least recognize and acknowledge the bias against the women in this story.
WOW. So what the film is saying is Tommy Lee DOESN'T have the balls to own up to his bad decisions. OK. HAHA. Then Tommy gets triggered by a critical review. jeez that boy got spine.
It's a 80's mentality film, "blame the women".
How did they subvert norms of the music industry? Literally every male rockstar was participating in the same lifestyle of drugs and groupies lol.
I agree how the movie 'punishes' tommy lee ex-fiance but in the scene the mom actually thinks that 'groupie' is a good word, she says to tommy how he always used to use this word
Mateus Grazina KingofSting19 Well that’s what he’s talking about starting around 5:37 with “dramatic irony”; we’re introduced to the fiancé as a cheater and she’s called a groupie as “punishment” *not by the mother*, but by the movie.
It happens alllll the time for bad characters (usually cheaters, actually) that aren’t really villains, just bad people. If you see the character later get hit by a car or something - no character has to shout aloud “and that’s what you get!” (they rarely do) but you understand that the movie is doling out a satisfying punishment for that character.
So whatever the mom intended is irrelevant because punishing characters that are bad people is common and how this movie is filmed shows that that’s what it’s doing with this scene.
Dude, you have literally copied and pasted this comment like 3 times.
Stop! We get it! You made your point! A good one at that!
The video does remind me of, and contrasts sharply with, Kurt cobain. He had respect for women. If he were alive today he would not be ok with all this misogyny.
Fully agreed!
He wasn’t OK with this type of behaviour in the 90s, and he would’ve still hated them.
He famously hated the Hair metal & sleaze rock scene and he despised the message these bands brought with them.
”Women & drugs! The rock n roll lifestyle, man”
I’m glad Nirvana and the Grunge scene kicked the asses of these mediocere 80s bands, as well as proving to the public that they were a thing from the past, from then on.
Except that he cheated on his long term gf who supported him for Toby vail
@@brensherlock cheating by itself doesn't necessarily make you a misogynist. people do it for all sorts of reasons, but I don't know his story for sure.
Sacred Lamb Also he was going through a lot, and still really appreciated his gf.
Sacred Lamb ; in any context, cheating is explicit disrespect towards your partner. you can’t claim kurt cobain respected women when he betrayed his long-term, loving girlfriend’s trust by fucking other women.
Even in the fictional version, the punching really wasn't justified. If he'd done it at the moment of the stabbing, as like a defensive reflex? That would be one thing. But it comes well after that event, when he gets pissed off.
Well she did decide to insult his mother
Considering the band "randomly" decided to get back together and start touring, I guess this was all just a publicity stunt to see if there was a market for Crue "in the PC era". It's depressing to see that it is, and I say this as a formerly devoted fan.
We’ve really hit a new low as a society when we have a movie that wants to portray 1980s Tommy Lee as a sympathetic protagonist...
it's like The Wolf of Wall Street, but failing to do everything that The Wolf of Wall Street managed to do
For a split second I thought this was going to be a video about the movie Joe Dirt
That I would watch in a heartbeat.
If I weren't broke I'd literally pay to see that.
same lmao
The movie’s attitude towards women makes a lot more sense when you learn that the novel which served as the source material was co-authored by Neil Strauss, aka the guy who wrote ‘The Game’, the infamous autobiographical account of the pick up artist community
The movie also leaves out Tommy Lee’s rap metal band which, if were being honest would have truly ruined Tommy’s character in the film
"That's how things we're in the 80s" in defence of a film that glorifies the lives of terrible people and covers up the horrible shit they did. Yep its boomer time
Didn't Tommy Lee recently attack Trisha Peytas online, calling her "Spamela Anderson" (body shaming her; a fan of his), for doing a fan-photoshoot to resemble the one he did with Pamela Anderson back in the day? I don't know much about the people -- as individuals -- involved, and can't claim to be a knowledgable fan of anyone stated for, but according to the evidence that this occurred, very, very recently... Tommy hasn't learned much about not being hateful toward women, targeting their bodies as an auto-insult -- even those who've done absolutely nothing wrongful to him, and are (were?) dedicated fans of his.
Tommy was, is and will sadly probably continue to be a sexist POS.
My old roommate wanted to go to the Motely Crue concert a few years go, so I and my friend went with her. All I remember is the fans mostly being older people (who were very drunk and boisterous, but that's normal for any concert) and being really weirded out by the 16-maybe 20 year old sexy dancing girls they had on stage with them in every song. The guys in the band are freaking ancient, it just looked so out of place.
After Generation Swine flopped hard, Nikki realized the only thing people wanted from the Crue was “girls girls girls” hair metal. So that’s what they’ve been doing since. And it’s honestly cringeworthy. Nikki tried to be different once, failed and then kept on doing the same shit for the next two decades even as all of them got old as fuck.
This is probably the biggest example as to why I feel nostalgic revivalism is literally the stupidest thing our culture can do.
It wasn't what it was. It's just a rose-tinted wash down version of it. It wants to have all the stuff it deems fun and cool, but wants to ignore or outright justify the negative consequences of that stuff and paints anyone trying to point that out as some "evil PC people" out on a scary conspiracy to destroy everyone's fun. It's not an honest reflection of our nostalgia. It's just aesthetics and bullshit to make sad and aging losers feel good.
Pretty much, yea. Disgusting display of sexist revisionism.
13:56 I wonder how many celebrities have this complex. I feel like at least 40% of rappers are like "no I don't think *all* women are skanks... some women are literally without fault, like my momma and my daughter."
If they’re going for a hardcore rock documentary about drugs and rock n roll n stuff and how it catches up to you, why not have it focus on Courtney Love? There’s hardly any sympathetic depictions surrounding her. She had the drug problem and hit pretty deep lows. She was in the scene of that time. 🤷♀️
Not supposed to say this but my uncle drives alice coopers bus and he often tours with motley. They are so shitty to alice. I went to an alice Cooper/ motley crew concert because of my uncle getting me tickets and I was in the crew section with my mom and one of the crew members heard I was 18 i said yes and he gave me a joint and a bottle of vodka and asked me if i wanted to go see nikki sixx because he would "be really into me" i told him he had to ask my mom so he retracted the invitation. Lol I'm sure i would have been asulted if i went.
holy shit i'm so sorry
thank you for sharing
God I totally forgot about how disgusting Saints Of LA is, not just about that specific line, but the whole song can basically be read as them attempting to justify their lives of doing terrible things to people and its all okay because they are musicians who signed their life away to living the Rock N Roll lifestyle.
theres a thing called jusging the artist and the music seporatly, so you cant tie a connection between them. the songs not too bad
@@MackenziiRivers lol Nikki Sixx gave up the ghost on that excuse for his fans when he said the whole album was basically based on the autobiography of the band. In fact, it was so based on the autobiography that they considered naming it "The Dirt". In fact In fact, he actually stated you could probably plug the songs in as "extra stories" in the book.
@@Phished123 probably fair, but you still judge the art and the artist separately. or nobody would be able to like anything as theres dirt on every creator ever existed.
@@MackenziiRivers Sure, but while we address the artistic merit of the art, we should also talk about the badness of the artist. Sure, if we really like the art is is possible to compartmentalize those two things from each other, but we have to remember that the other compartment exists, and played a role in the creation of that person as an artist, so even a tiny fraction of those bad things are contained inherently inside the art.
@@Phished123 it really does not though. Walt Disney could be considered a bad person yet what he made was amazing. you'd judge the both separately. Just because an artist had a messed up life or view of things should not distract points away from the art they made
I find it funny that bands who carefully manicure a persona of being edgy and out of control are so anal when it comes to ensuring they are ‘out of control’ in all the right places. I’d have more respect for them if they were honest and critical of their past selves and showed the events that took place with an unbiased view. After all, that would truely be original and edgy, unlike the milk toast run of the mill film they produced.
Sexism is so baked into the Rock n' Roll lifestyle that idk there *was* a way to make The Dirt without it becoming a bleak tragedy. The truth is when you're an impossibly rich and famous man surrounded by groupies before age 21, the odds of you forming any opinion about women other than as sexual objects is just...not great. To be clear, I'm not excusing the film's portrayal, especially since it went out of its way to fabricate so much. It just does add up that this lifestyle leads to a really unhealthy view of women. That Tommy Lee (57) called an adult woman "little girl" for writing an article he disagreed with sort of exemplifies that. If she's not their relative, they have no idea how to interact with her that doesn't involve their masculinity and it's probably why you really don't see many happily married rock stars. Seeing your spouse as an unnecessarily complicated flesh-light does not a long lasting bond make.
As a huge Crüe fan I just wanna say FUCKING THANK YOU FOR THIS. I've hated the movie since it came out but couldn't put my finger on exactly why and this really nails it.
I love how 10% of your comments are always complimenting your hair. I, too, noticed that it looks good.
So basically this movie suffers from the same problems as All Eyez On Me, Gotti, Jersey Boys, and to some extent Bohemian Rhapsody. This is why all biopics about people who ware still alive or are heavily interfered by the person’s friends and family end up being bad, boring, and or inaccurate. Granted, those moves had many other problems besides the inaccuracies. However, by scrubbing away the flawed aspects of a person’s life it makes the person less interesting and lessens the impact of their success. The fact that that these biopics keep having the same problems show me that Hollywood hasn’t learned a damn thing.
I actually really like Jersey Boys because it actually shows what are arsehole Tommy De Vito was, how Frankie Valli wrecked his marriage through cheating and the tragic impact this had on his daughter and the band's mob connections also that everyone had a different perspective, maybe it was sanitized but that still pulled a lot less punches than many biopics too. Ironically the most sympathetically portrayed band member is Nicky who is the only one who is dead.
Lords Of Chaos is another recent film with a similar concept with much better execution, if you can get past the many fictionalized elements it's a great film that at times was genuinely scarier than any horror I've seen in years.
Though most people justifiably think it's shit, and pretty much all the people depicted have denounced it, so I'm probably wrong.
Hey! Another rational humanist voice on TH-cam!
My careful curation is paying off. Subbed.
r/breadtube
hbomberguy and folding ideas are really good, similar channels
Might I reccomend The Humaist Report on TH-cam?
I read the scene with Tommy's mother as her genuinely not knowing what a "groupie" is and the negative connotations behind it. The way she responds to Tommy's admonishment seems to evoke the kind of "what, what did I say?" response you see older/out of touch characters give in media when they said something they didn't know wasn't socially appropriate.
KingofSting19 Well that’s what he’s talking about starting around 5:37 with “dramatic irony”; we’re introduced to the fiancé as a cheater and she’s called a groupie as “punishment” *not by the mother*, but by the movie.
It happens alllll the time for bad characters (usually cheaters, actually) that aren’t really villains, just bad people. If you see the character later get hit by a car or something - no character has to shout aloud “and that’s what you get!” (they rarely do) but you understand that the movie is doling out a satisfying punishment for that character.
So whatever the mom intended is irrelevant because punishing characters that are bad people is common and how this movie is filmed shows that that’s what it’s doing with this scene.
You're 100% accurate with that statement. English was not Tommy's Mum's first language, she didn't even speak English when she met his Dad. :)
It's not how the film portrayed it (although there is a throwaway line just after that, or maybe before, I can't remember, about his Mum not being able to speak English when they met/got married), but your statement is correct.
Dude, you have literally copied and pasted this comment like 3 times.
Stop! We get it! You made your point! A good one at that!
A.D Suri isn’t it a bit ironic that you have now copied and pasted your reply to his reply three times now as well 😂
This reminds me of when NPR did a thing about Eminem's album anniversary and a caller was like, "I thought we all knew he was jokeing when he was being misogynistic" and as a girl who grew up on glassjaw and the deftones I thought it was a joke too, but being self aware about being a predator is not the same thing as satire. The singer from glassjaw has publicly apologized and I don't hear any "wouldn't it be sexy to murder a woman" lyrics in the deftones these days, so I assume Chino's views towards women have changed also. Men especially in that error were encouraged to be predators, so if you feel bad about your actions speak up explicitly. Denounce it. Stop making it seem cool. It's actually not badass, it's you being a week asshole leach. No one makes movies glamorizing slave owners as badasses.
Literally just watched this almost 2 hr movie so that i could watch this 20 min video
What's funny is that i didn't even know anything about motley crue before watching so i didn't have the bias being a fan or a 40 yr old man but i still fell into every trap. The level of misogyny was about what i expected so i was unshaken by the use of women as props or sex symbols or user groupies. And the cheating. I definitely got the impression that the ex fiance was crazy and the punch was basically an accident. Came out still liking Tommy. Vince was a womanizer but ultimately pretty level headed and how nice he only wants to be a good dad. The overall impression was definitely "frat boy shenanigans with occasional consequences" rather than "horrendous violations of human decency"
It's frustrating how the comments for that review poo poo it for "revisionism" or being "PC" and that "that's how things were in the 80's", but fail to realize the movie itself is NOT an 80's film. You can depict horrible things in movies, so long as you frame it correctly in regards to what we know about human rights today. I mean, look at something like Sorry to Bother You. It depicts racism, but it's not framed to say "boy, isn't that a cool thing? Bad, but secretly cool?"
I feel like people don't understand the concept of revisionism, especially when they're claiming the reviewer wants revisionism....even though the movie their defending is extremely guilty of revisionism in how it depicts the band's treatment of women.
I think the objection is that turning The Dirt into a treatise on gender power dynamics as seen through the feminist lense would make it far less entertaining to watch for the average person. This is a Motley Crue biopic for God's sake.
Do me a favor and tell me your life story. Spare no details and skip no mistakes, errors or bad judgements. I'll count how many times you say but (both implicit and explicit buts).
@@apstanford no one made them create a revisionary movie of their "life story". If they didnt want to honestly depict their mistakes then why make a movie about "both the good and the bad"
Its just dishonest. I would not make such a movie about myself, for that exact reason.
Because they weren't required to make this, the excuse you are trying to spin for them make no sense.
Joe Average its not about perfection. I'm merely pointing out the fact that the pot is calling the kettle black. Its hypocritical to condemn someone for doing something that you do as well. How about you use a little critical thinking before labeling my argument a fallacy.
Would have liked the movie more if Grunge fans showed up in the 90s portion, and basically be like the students of 21 Jump Street reboot, Kurt Cobain was like the OG SJW
Which is why I love him still.
The Slovenian flag is in the skillshare ad at 02:49 and I just wanted to share this glorious moment, because lord knows my tiny country never gets mentioned. ever. Thank you for reading haha
When I was thirteen I was a HUGE mötley crue fan. They were my favorite band and I watched any video I could find on TH-cam. I covered my walls with posters of them, wore their tshirts and badges, I read Nikki Sixx's Heroin Diaries and The Dirt, I saw them live when they came to my country.
But after the star-glazed look in my eyes faded I realised there was absolutely nothing in them. I was young and loving their look and badassness, but after hearing "🎶girls girls girls🎶" a million times I was tired of it all. Especially after I had listened to more Hanoi Rocks and had Hanoi stuff on vinyl and on CD and on cassette and a 1000 page Michael Monroe memoir read in two days. After seeing how Mötley Crue absolutely downplayed Vince Neil drunk driving and killing Hanoi Rocks' drummer Razzle... I was done. Done with them and with L.A./sex drugs rocknroll/Hollywood crap.
Nowadays I'm a self-proglaimed feminist, musiclover and straight-edge and can't find any appeal in them. Their music is boring, it has always been boring. But it was never the point, the point was a lifestyle of not caring and recklessness. If there ever even was any "point".
I can understand how young fans today see this film and think "fuck yeah, that's rock n roll!" and don't see what they actually were and ARE (!!! this is not a case of "things were different back then") as people.
My friend from those fandays posted on instagram her watching this film.. I wonder what she saw, golden nostalgia that drowns everything else? Because how can she ignore everything that Mötley Crue themselves wanted to be portrayed as in this film?
I'm happy that I grew up and had my own thoughts and didn't spend too much time in that self-centered crap they preach. I'm sad that they're "classic" and still have movies being made of them, when the band and people in it are pure crap and not in the ~cool~ way they think they are. It's weird to me that people still are brainlessly defending them and everything they do. It's music and you can listen to them and it's not a big deal.. but yeah, use your brains people. And don't do heroin.
I think part of the issue is how the film handles the term "even handed", essentially just treating it as a licence to dump uncomfortable moments onto the screen and then never go into depth on them. This has the result of telling the audience to just dismiss these things. I
Unfortunately there is a large constituency that seems to believe that this is the real way to be even handed, that any extended examination is really just picking a side.
Ironic that a band so concerned with appearing edgy would one day wind-up pushing this sanitized, watered down, mainstream friendly version of their story.
There was a young Nikki getting abused by a step father, Young Nikki cutting himself, Nikki setting his arm on fire, Vince fucking some guy's girlfriend and a girl squirting, and that was just in the start of the movie.
They put the film on Netflix so they could have more freedom to show what crazy shit they did as much as they were allowed to. They were already pushing the X rated limits as far as possible.
If constant sex, nudity, drug use, violence, ant snorting and piss licking is "mainstream friendly," then I'm curious to see what you consider non-mainstream friendly.
That skillshare segway though!
Protip: If it's not about the scooter, it's spelled "segue".
Because English is the bastard child of ancient German and medieval French, that's why.
@@timothymclean I propose all red-blooded Americans should be taught Church Slavonic as their first language. That or Welsh. Because sounding like you're gargling leaves will GUARANTEE RESPECT GOD DAMMIT.
I almost felt bad about missing much of the pitch for Skillshare because I was laughing so hard at his delivery. It really was brilliantly done.
I like Motley Crue, and when I watched The Dirt the first time around, I liked it. I did realize that it was probably a whitewashed depiction, but I didn’t bother to look into it. Thank you for exposing the REAL dirt. This video is an important one, and I’m glad you made it. I do also believe in separating the artist from the art, so while the members of the bands are beyond shitty people, I still like their music. However, I don’t think I’ll ever watch The Dirt again
3:45 I just looked up in youtube search bar "why starship troopers is right" just to double check and uhh, sargon made an a 1 hour 23 minute video on starship troopers.
Yikes
I mean, while the movie is clearly satirical, the book certainly does glorify that society.
i’m SO glad i came across a video about this omg i remember just being absolutely astounded by how they chose to portray themselves
you can almost hear the band over the director’s shoulder going “hey make sure we look cool” “you’re gonna make us look cool right?” “don’t forget to make us look cool”... and somehow that movie is what they think looks cool.
I dont find myself agreeing with a lot of the criticism here. The dirt was an autobiography written by the members of the band. A blatantly biased and idealised narrative, obviously they will glorify themselves and not focus as much on the negatives. if you go into the movie expecting a fair and sympathetic depiction your just fooling yourself. Imo (not a fan of the band or the movie)
SEXISM yayyyyyy Rock n Roll BRO!!!!
Disrespecting women and other minorities is the new counterculture, bro! Look how rebellious and daring I am for punching down at the oppressed!
@@edgarroberts8740 BRO THAT’S SO COOL IM GONNA SAY A HOMOPHOBIC SLURS TO TRIGGER THE PC LIBS IM SO COOL
why don’t people talk to me
I don't think the movie is implying that Tommy's mother called his fiancé a groupie because of the way she looked, I think it was because Greek is her first language and she heard Tommy talk about groupies as a good thing. I don't think she realized it was a derogatory term because of the language barrier. Even her body language seemed happy or excited not judgemental. My grandparents first language is Italian and they have had similar experiences, obviously not to this severity though. A lot of the time it's pretty funny.
Elyse Nardo really? I thought that until I saw the expression on her face...she doesn’t seem regretful and kind of glad she offended her. If she really didn’t mean it, this even further vilifies Honey because she’s really getting upset over a misunderstanding, not the mom saying something offensive on purpose
Mary P. To me she just seems confused honestly. I could be wrong though, but the move does describe how normal and supportive Tommy's family was so it seems out of character. I think it was a misunderstanding, and the girl was just a bad egg. It still doesn't excuse Tommy's behaviour though
it reminds me of Straight out of Compton "editing out" Dre's abuse of his then gf. This is why biopics are IMO not interesting enough.
Ironically if they were more faithfuk to the truth they might serve to gain more empathy despite fucked up actions, but when shit is swept under a rug it inspires more critical looks
Or when Dre beat up that one interviewer woman
this may sound weird but I wanna brush your hair man, loved the vid btw
How is that weird? Who doesn't. . . I'm jealous of that hair. . .
Relatable, have a nice day.
I did feel this way watching the film and felt the same way watching Straight Outta Compton but I think it was also worth mentioning the fact that in the movie Mick Mars criticizes his own bandmates treatment of women too.
Funnily enough, I have no problem with films/tv shows depicting violence against women or violence of any kind. It's how that violence is *framed* that I have a problem with and that's where this movie went wrong.
where did you even get those text to speech voices lmao