British 1958 Pattern Web Equipment Evolution - Part I
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.ย. 2024
- A look at how 1958 Pattern changed throughout its use, focusing on CEFO.
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I served between 1977 and 1988, my experience with '58 pattern webbing is as follows;
Basic training we wore bum-roll below the kidney pouches with the side clips attached to the metal loops above the ammo pouches. The ammo pouches would be secured from 'flailing around' by two utility straps connected together.
Later I acquired a number of water bottle pouches which replaced the kidney pouches. As these pouches sat lower on the belt it meant fixing the bum-roll on top of the water bottle pouches.
When in BAOR, doing the 6th Airmobile Brigade trials, we were issued a nylon Infantry GS Bergen, although many of us purloined the larger nylon SAS Bergen for greater carrying capacity (food, a second water bottle and ammo).
We were also issued a second bum-roll to carry the NBC suit and boots (one bum-roll was never big enough and hadn't been designed to carry poncho and NBC kit).
I acquired a small unframed lightweight nylon rucksack to carry my NBC kit which I just attached to my Bergen as the situation demanded.
The large pack, with spare combats and sleeping bag, was retained but held by the CQMS on his transport as flying into a defensive position we were supposed to carry loads more ammo than standard scales of issue. The large pack would be brought up as and when the colour boy could.
Ordinary infantry had 8 x Milan posts, as Airmobile infantry we, I think had 3 or 4 times that number.
The idea was if the Soviets broke through we would be helicoptered in, dig in, and take on the Soviet armour with our Milans.
On posting to the depot, as an instructor, I got issued nylon webbing '85, as I recall.
I got rid of my kidney pouches and sew together 4 water bottle pouches . Much more secure and comfortable
Spoken like a true Infantryman!
same as , had 2 sets one for in camp and set two customised for in the field, left ammo pouch then 5 water bottle pouches sewn together unless nbc resssy was required , kfs in inerger pouch
@@newy2242 Funny you should remind me of that: 1 set, as detailed by some orders and occasionally laid out for a formal inspection, complete with that Large (ha ha) Pack, then the set you'd actually want to deploy with, together with a decent Bergen !
I did that too when I was in Germany 🇩🇪. All kidney pouches were good for was carrying your washing and shaving kit for Sick parade 😂😂😂
My unit wouldn’t let you have nbc kit or the poncho sticking out a lot from the cape carrier. Also it was a pain to fold and pack when wet. So like you said soldiers bought a lot of kit. First for me was a metal mug and then a larger civi copy of the cape carrier in DPM from Sass kit, then a berghaus crusader
Loved the crusader. Still got it nearly forty years later.
Wish I had mine hold on to it, nothing better even today
We all know what this video series is going to smell like....... if only it could be bottled.
A version with German or British mud would be good.
CEFO combat equipment fighting order
CEMO combat equipment Marching order
Web belt yoke and two pouches: skill at arms order
Ace show mate.... Brings back some shite memories with the 58 gear.
What's not mentioned is the two utility straps which were always issued. When the poncho was carried up top the two utility straps were looped together to pull the ammo pouches back using the lower loops
Good to know, thank you.
Thought I was the only one who remembered those. Also used for SAA training set up. Belt, yoke, left and right ammo pouches and waterbottle pouch with bottle & mug.
I found the Utility straps useful for attaching the 58 Patt. sleeping bag to the top of the Large Pack (Useless thing, worst piece of kit I was ever issued) as the fitted straps were way too short to get it on properly. I used to buckle the utility straps onto them to give me more length. Other than they were pretty well useless.
Great video mate, I am thinking of doing a 1962 - 1964 Borneo mannequin, so perfect
last year, i saw a lt. col wearing a 58 belt with his MTP.... still classy !
Most acf use a 58 pattern either on the trousers or over the smock
@@sniperrhyshughes6648 really, in this day and age ? !
@@GavTatu yeah you only get issued one belt from the qm and thats to go on your trousers and smock
@@sniperrhyshughes6648 but an old 58 ? not even the newer issue plastic ones, or just the new issue opens ?
@@GavTatu no most buy the 58 as its smarter
Very knowledgeable with an effective and eloquent delivery.
Good 'ol 58 pattern... a really insightful video brother 👏
Thanks for sharing 👍
Really interesting to see a 58 pattern setup for the Gulf War, I would have thought that PLCE would have been more widespread then but, guess not! Very interesting!
Took 58 on op Granby. Only had one PLCE waterbottle pouch in PLCE. Was also in mixed dress for pretty much the whole operation.
personal weapon was the SMG as well. Trying to get the mags in the ammo pouches... Oh the joy
Absolutely Excellent and informative vid. Thx
i like it the lbv era and the web gear is awesome
Reminds me of...
Combat & Survival magazine
The Falklands War 14 Issue magazine
Where I got my information about the British Army (in Australia)
Had completely forgotten about that magazine,thank you.
I was given 58 webbing sometime ago but instead of the usual clip at the front of the belt there was a wheel at the front that you thread the belt through but I was told that the wheel on the belt was used on parachutes but later used for some 58 webbing because it was a very good design I was wondering whether that was right.
The most common belt used after the std belt was a roll pin belt. This originally was a strap found on aeroplanes or pallets used for securing loads down. The strap is actually about 3to4m long. It aloud you to adjust the belt quickly not matter if you had just a short on or like jacket and smock or even nbc kit.
@@richardbrealey989 I bought one from Survival Aids. Only downside was that pouches could slide if you hadn't properly squared them away.
Very interesting and good information about history of Webbing. Just goes to show that the USA was way ahead in terms of moving for cotton to Nylon after it was rotting in the jungles of Vietnam
We were issued 2 "utility" straps with this. Seem to remember they joined the ammo pouches. I'm guessing they had other uses also.
Mine was still in it's brown paper wrapping with string holding it together. Sept 1985. Brand spanking unissued stock. Came out of war stock. Bleeding fingers trying to get the F*"*king thing put together. Just got it sorted and comfy.... This week's lesson is NBC. Here's your resi and case.. get that on your webbing. Them having to take resi case off when not doing NBC lessons.
It was not, as here stated "Combat Equipment Fighting Order". Its correct designation was 'Complete Equipment Fighting Order" (CEFO)
CORRECT!!!!
Never heard it called that, Complete??.Not in 10 years.
@@flatmoon6359 when the large pack is attached, the designation becomes CEMO - Complete Equipment Fighting
It’s ‘Fighting’ Order. With Large Pack it’s designation is Complete Equipment Marching Order (CEMO). When CEFO is stripped down to Front Pouches and Yoke, it is designated ‘Musketry Order.
C.E.F.O. Combat Equipment Fighting Order on 58 pattern is kidney pouches,water bottle, respirator,2 ammo pouches,poncho with carrier,NBC Suit,and whatever digging tool.If your really old ,Inerger granade launcher.
C.E.M.O. was same with large pack,i.e Combat Equipment Marching Order.It might be different now, but on 58 pattern that's what it was.Served with Most Arms,even RAF Regiment called it this.
as always you posts are excellent - speaking for my husband
brilliant, authoritative presentation.
The NBC threat during the Gulf War was considered so high that British Aerospace actually issued all it contractors working in Saudi with S10 respirators and Mk.4 suits, unfortunately they didn’t issue respirator haversacks only a locally made one that was just a nylon pouch lined with charcoal inside, the charcoal used to cover your hands every time you pulled out the respirator, luckily I managed to get my hands on a U.S. issue respirator haversack to keep my S10 in.
In the final version you show the cape carrier above the water bottle pouches and it appears to be only attached with the 2 clips to the top of the ammunition pouches and then bungied on. The other 2 clips on the cape carrier for the belt D rings - you appear not to have attached to anything. I know you mentioned about attaching these to the “rings” of the opened entrenching tool attachment at the top of the yolk. That was one option, but the better way that was most used with the multiple water bottle pouches, was to attach those 2 clips to the two metal loops at the bottom ends of the yolk down straps (and above the c rings where they attach to the belt). That was much more secure, and it rotated the cape carrier the right way round so that the straps to the top of the ammo pouches actually went over the ends of the cape carrier and cinched the contents in, and also put the “loop” on the cape carrier for the entrenching tool to the outside so that it could be used for its proper purpose if necessary. You couldn’t attach it that way with kidney pouches as the attachments for the kidney pouches to the yolk straps got in the way. Hard to describe - it would be so much easier if TH-cam allowed photos in comments!
Here at 90 views ! Very very nice vid
A very nice overview. As always GREAT JOB!
Pouch fasteners with the additional poppers on the pull tabs?
It took a long development period to design a waterbottle carrier that is just a little too small, then full on production until the end of pattern use.
The Mk7 cape/ Groundsheet still not working well as a water proof..... at least it was consistent.
I have a full set of 3rd issue 58 patt
They were still using 37 pattern in training in the seventies.
Still war reserve in the 80's!
I have some photos of the Army Catering Corps using it in the early '80s.
@@RiflemanMoore we got the 58 in 84 when I joined the ACC.
@@RiflemanMoore I expect the pouches were more conducive to carrying ladles or something.
@@medic7698 here's the thing. Every one complaints about the ACC. But when it came to getting hot water. Tea or coffee or a hot meal when it's raining on exercise we did a very good job.
Try to do the 72 pattern trials if possible. Great vid by the way.
Thanks! I have covered the '72 Pattern' officially 1975 Pattern previously on the channel.
35 years after l threw it back at the QM clerk during dekit prior to leaving ... I do not belive I have just sat & watched a 30 min documentary on 58 patt webbing AND got engrossed in it .... help.
Ditto 😅😅😅
Can you do any videos about ww2 British paratrooper equipment? Considering starting an impression
I hated mine as an army cadet in 2003, was quick to upgrade into a 3rd party assault vest. Not that I really needed that type of gear, but kids are too excitable
That is mainly armoured infantry set up normal infantry carried the poncho (bum roll) in original place so you could carry a Bergan/pack fyi you still had to pack the pack for active edge call outs most of us had bollocks issue for call out and personnel webbing for reality the water bottle pouches were sew together for rigidity and foam on inside of webbing belt to stop rubbing on the hips even after plce issue in reality all that happened was old webbing handed in new plce pack for call out inspection own kit used because better
Also, can anyone remember the one large kidney pouch. Size of a bag of cement that all your kit fitted in. I got issued one in Germany about 1987. Never saw one apart from the one I had in Germany.
👍
CEFO had to weight 33 lbs , CEMO had to weight 60lbs , you either carried a pick or a shovel depending on the colour bloke in the store , fist man shovel second man pick and so on
☺
Still got mine in the garage somewhere 🤔
The problem wasn’t the webbing per se but the things we were expected to carry in it. I never understood why anyone thought we’d stop to polish our DMS boots before fighting through a defensive position. Stuff like that should have stayed in the pack (or bergan).
I haven’t seen a set since 1994 but I reckon I could still put it together…
Having lived in CEFO 58 pattern between 85 andv 93 I can confirm it was utterly shit in design and function. Heavy cotton material in 1980s ,19th century design with 18t century materials. Most of the world was using nylon lighter comfortable kit by then.
58 pattern was let down by the metal fixing hooks on the pouches.
Wouldn't it be bad, for the pattern 58 being cotton, in CBRN environment, because it can soak up all the chemicals? Nylon webbing would be easier to clean and reuse.
Very true but use what you're issued with. It could be decontaminated but that would shorten it's life considerably.
That was the intention of the 75 pattern IIRC. But it wasn’t introduced AIUI because of defence cuts. The only bit that was kept was the haversack for the S6 respirator. There were other bits of nylon kit such as the spare parts wallet for the GPMG
Your display could also pass for the Irish Defence Forces, circa 1970s and 80s
The cominations in the video aren't quite right for the IDF but I have covered the irish combat uniform etc. elsewhere on the channel and it's something I plan to talk about again in the not to distant future.
👍🇮🇪
Hated that stuff……
Crap Webbing
Bought some at a market biggest pain in the arse to set up
@@Sinky-06 I got issued brand new in the Army, so hard to put together. I had that set for the whole 9 years of my service. I was happy handing it back in!!!!!!
I hate seeing a civilian with no experience trying to appear knowledgeable about military uniforms. Riddled with inaccuracies.
I'd be very happy to be corrected on these specific inaccuracies.