The Priests of Plague | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
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The Priests of Plague | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
Robert is joined by Miles Gray to discuss the history of priests and plagues.
Original Air Date: April 7, 2020
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There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.
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"I didn't want to take this into child porn territory so let's get back to the antisemitism" - it's moments like that which remind me why i love this god damn podcast so fucking much
Much Appreciated!
I’m so glad this was the top comment. That made me laugh so damn hard.
It's wild to think that this was recorded before the REALLY kookoo bananas stuff started.
Listening back to the whole 'covid era BTB' episodes this many years on has been a wild ride
At 56:00 minutes: Actually, Catholic indulgences work like this (I went to Catholic school for 14 years in the 1960s and 1970s): Everyone who does not die in a state of mortal sin avoids being sent to hell, but they have to go to purgatory instead, before you can get into heaven. If you die in a state of unconfessed and unforgiven mortal sin, you don't get to even go to purgatory -- straight to hell with you.
Each of your unpaid for sins is assigned a time period that has to be paid in purgatory, sort of like a prison sentence. However, if you say certain prayers while you're alive, each prayer is worth a certain amount of time off in purgatory. Once you've finished your purgatory sentence, you get paroled to heaven. I'm not sure most Catholics believe this anymore. It's very formulaic, full of mathematical calculations. I'm not 100% sure, but there may have been a chart at one point, assigning each sin a certain amount of time in purgatory -- one lie would equal X amount of time in purgatory, that sort of thing.
There used to be a ritual you could perform on All Souls' Day, in which a fixed set of prayers, said in just the right way, would ransom one soul from purgatory -- their purgatory sentence would be "commuted," and your prayers would parole them to heaven. I would spend All Souls' Day, I would ransom my relatives and strangers out of purgatory. I can't believe I used to believe all of this.
I just assumed that was what people did to get over their Halloween hangovers.
Man, looking back at early 2020 from just 3 years into the future... such naive times
Ikr? Who the hell thinks Tommy is the greatest album of all time?
Worth noting that Medieval Christians did, in fact, bathe. Medieval Paris had like 120 bathhouses or something like that. And in fact, one of the leading theories of how the plague was spread at the time was through bathing, which led to significantly less-frequent bathing in Early Modern Europe than in Medieval Europe.
That doesn't mean it's NOT true that Medieval Jews bathed more, though; they probably did, for two big reasons: 1) they tended to live in large urban centers which had bathhouses; Christian peasants in the countryside might have to find a nearby river for bathing. 2) One of the largest Jewish populations in Medieval Europe was in the Iberian peninsula, which was then Europe's largest center for soapmaking - "Castille Soap" is still a thing today.
That Kirstie Alley joke was fucking amazing.
tbh the optimistic view of greater integration sounds about right. Efforts to dehumanise people are more effective when people *don't* have firsthand experience that contradicts them. You can see similar things in where opposition to immigration is the most common - it's very rarely in places that actually *have* a lot of immigration. It's a lot harder to be xenophobic when you've seen the sinister stranger that you're being warned about get their hijab caught on a doorknob.
I do wonder why it's so common for people to respond to plagues by doing things that will spread diseases. It's easy to look at older examples and think "well, they didn't know any better", but you have people doing things that they would never have done before, that specifically spread diseases... and they're doing it now.
Good timing with Easter lol
Medieval historians absolutely hate the myth that medieval Christians didn't wash. Many people didn't have access to running water, so they weren't very clean by today's standards, but they did still have clear notions of personal hygiene. Bath houses were popular in many parts of Europe throughout the Middle Ages. Even most people who didn't have access to them still washed their hands and faces every day, changed and washed their clothes regularly, and would try to clean themselves off in a basin when they could.
If Jews really were less effected by the plague (rather than just being mindlessly scapegoated, which is more likely), then it was probably more to do with the fact they were often required to live in separate communities, sometimes outside the main settlements, so may have been less exposed to the disease.
Good call Robert. The Who's Tommy is indeed the best album from that era by a country mile.
Also, when it comes to the "Jews kill Christian children" thing I think that's a pretty good analog to how the Church handled this and a lot of anti-semitic persecution. Which is to say that officially, formally, the church tended to not recognize this as 'real.' But at the same time, while it would issue things condemning it, you wouldn't really get in trouble for it, and it was a very useful thing to have if you are, say, a local bishop. Because if you can convince people you have a child martyr in your town, then that gets you pilgrims, money, all sorts of stuff. I'd compare it to, say, something like the way the Republican aprty establishment tends to treat antisemitism/racism/etc. It's entirely possible that Mitch McConnell, say, does not have any personal animosity towards black people, LGBT people, etc. And he will even often denounce explicitly racist things. At the same time, you can get ahead in the Republican party by appealing to those sentiments.
I don't think that it's correct to say that bathing was extremely uncommon. I mean, even you noted that the flagellants had to be forbidden from doing it, which does kind of imply that they would have otherwise. And there's honestly some question of if Jews WERE less effected ata ll, and if they were, if said effect would have been noticeable to the people who carried out persecutions. Furthermore, when we do have documents related to the pogroms that were carried out, there's rarely much mention of Jews being less effected. It's either that one of the things people thought they were being punished by God for was harboring Jews, or it's that they say Jews poisoned communal wells, but don't mention them being less effected as evidence. Which largely implies to me that they probably weren't.
19:55 I think the message is sometimes people with good intentions make bad things happen
I think the moral of the story is that religious people, who are inherently irrational and obstinent in the face of supplied reason, should be disgraced and shunned across the whole of society because that may be the only way to purge their archaic and deadly views short of just murdering them which never actually works because the idiocy is in us all in a way and we are doomed as a species to continue to fuck everything up..?
Hit someone with a machete? Just T pose, it'll be fine
I'm not religiously observant enough to be an expert on this, but while I'm pretty sure ritual hand washing and ritual face washing were daily things that medieval Jews would do (and that probably helped cut down on the spread at least somewhat), I'm pretty sure you would only be required to ritually bathe once a month after your period ended, or if you became niddah/unclean in some other way (touching a dead body, touching blood, etc).*
So medieval Jews might not necessarily have been bathing much more than goyim were (at least until Christians started shunning baths as an act of religious devotion). Also, the way lots of people in population centers bathed back then (and maybe in relatively small cities/towns; I'm not sure) was in public bathhouses, which seem relatively similar to what a mikvah is, except more secular. So not only were lots of goyim bathing maybe about as much as most Jews (at least where full-body baths were concerned, not hand-washing necessarily), everybody was using potentially-infectious public baths.
Probably, aside from the ritual hand-washing (if it's a daily-minimum religious requirement, you're probably more likely to do it than someone whose religion doesn't include daily hand-washing), the main thing that probably (I assume) caused lots of medieval Jews to not get the Black Plague was how relatively separated a lot of Jewish neighborhoods/communities were from the rest of the city, or from the nearest gentile town/village/etc. When an outbreak happened in the main part of the city, or in the gentile town, Jews were more likely to be "socially distanced" from the rest of the local population, and thus from most of the infected (Edit: if medieval Jews were actually less affected by the plague, which apparently might not even be historically accurate).
(*All genders & sexes can become niddah/unclean, but if you menstruate then (if you believe in this) you become unclean every month due to your period, and have to go to the mikvah for a ritual bath every month after your period ends.)
Y’all should do a three years later update
Donald Trump, Plaguelord of Fascism is a phrase that went through my head early in this episode. Also listening to this in 2024 when so little has changed is... cool.
"I shall not make a Nurgle reference, I shall not make a Nurgle reference"..... Shit, I made a Nurgle reference, did I?!?
In case you don't know the Catholic Church and Christianity in general has a blood magic practice. The flagellants were performing a divine sacrament and as such were the focal point for divine power to grace that divine power on another the blood was the focus. The eyes are because back then the eyes were what took in the grace of the Lord.
Well yeah, and the whole transubstantiation thing is pretty much in plain sight.
Love from a ChristianVerstappen and Vaush fan!
BUFFALO MENTIO--
Oh wait, no this one is bad. Shit.