Starting Position for the Snatch & Clean
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2019
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The precise starting position will vary somewhat among lifters, but with rare exceptions, the position will meet a handful of simple criteria.
The starting position is defined as the position of the lifter and barbell the last moment before the bar separates from the floor-it is not the position the lifter initiates any motion from in a dynamic start.
The bar should start approximately over the balls of the foot. This can be adjusted in either direction based on proportions and resulting shin angle-shorter lifters may be able to start it slightly farther back, and taller lifters may need to start it farther forward. In no case should it be in front of the foot or so far back it restricts the shins’ optimal position.
The toes should be turned out approximately 10-30 degrees from the centerline and the weight balanced evenly across them (See pulling stance video - • Find Your Pulling Stan... ). The bar does not need to be touching the shins, although it should be close.
The knees should be pushed out inside the arms and may be touching them. This allows better posture and improves hip mobility to arch the back better (See knees out video - • Knees Out in the Snatc... ). The knees should be at least slightly over the bar as well-don’t try to keep the knees behind the bar with more vertical shins.
The back should be set tightly in a continuous arch by maintaining or very slightly exaggerating the lumbar curve and flattening the thoracic curve as much as possible. This maximizes the ability to maintain a rigid trunk. (See back arch article - www.catalystathletics.com/art...)
The head should be directed forward and the eyes focused straight ahead or slightly higher. This allows a consistent focal point during the lift for better balance and helps keep the posture upright, and the head-up position also allows more forceful back extension.
The shoulder joint should be directly above the bar or only very slightly in front of it, making the arm approximately vertical when viewed from the side. This will place the leading edge of the shoulder slightly in front of the bar.
The arms should be somewhat internally rotated to direct the bony points of the elbows more out to the sides than backward, and remain long and relaxed. (See elbows out video - • Video )
The shoulder blades should be approximately neutral in terms of protraction and retraction and be depressed as a natural part of the lats’ contribution to extending the upper back.
The height of the hips will depend primarily on the lifter’s proportions. Mechanically, it’s easier to lift from the floor if the hips are at least slightly above the knees, and this will be possible for most lifters. For short-legged, long-torsoed lifters, the hips may be at the same level of the knee or even slightly below, but such lifters also have better mechanics to move from such a position.
The only necessary differences for the clean relative to the snatch will be slightly higher hips and the knees spread out less due to the narrower grip. However, a lifter may make other changes by choice or by necessity due to mobility restrictions, such as using a different pulling stance.
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You keep amazing me. Packing a one-week seminar into less than 3 minutes.
Job. Well. Done.
i really have the same idea. this clearity and pace of info is not normal!
Your information and format used to present it are amazing. Thank you so much for the clean and concise content!
Keep up the good work. These videos keep getting better and better.
wow this is such a freaking good explanation
This was an excellent video; perfect for a tall skinny 6'1" lifter with long arms and femurs like myself. Thank You!
Quality video Greg. Keep up the hard work.
Great breakdown and very helpful.Thank you!
nice, concise as always
Thanks I needed this
Great video!
Thanks, Greg.
Found you via Instagram. Love the short to the point overviews!
This explains so much!!!💯💯💯🙏
Ty ty, had difficulty wrapping my mind on the proper mechanics of a clean setup.
I loved this. so good
Best videos on oly lifting on youtube by far.
Thanks!
short and to the point
Thank you sir
Great! Material.
That was great thorough and to the point!! Outstanding ✊✊
Hit the nail right on the head every single god damn time haha
You're appreciated
Best Olympic weight lifting coach on you tube by far , short and very sweet
I'm not that short.
@@CatalystAthletics that's the videos that is 😅
You're not that sweet either! 😁 (awesome coach though)@@CatalystAthletics
When I did a search for "snatch", I didn't expect this.
Greg, You're videos are amazing and always full of incredible insight. Is there any way to show a video of some of your (or any) lifters starting positions with varying body proportions? You always talk about "taller lifters adjustments," but those lifters typically also have long torsos and arms to allow the technical cues to still be on point. How would starting position (or any other positions for that matter) be adjusted for a long femur lifter who has short torso and short arms?
Long legs, short torso/arms... same deal. It's just going to influence the height of the hips and angle of the back. All you do is get as close as possible to "ideal".
My book has photos of I think 8 different lifters showing the variation in starting position, one of whom was 6' 4" but relatively short leg/long torso. I had another lifter years ago who was the same height and longer legged but don't have any photos of the start position... but he did fine.
Do what you can do and keep working to improve your mobility to mitigate the problems.
Hi there! I am new to this sport and i have a problem where i don't get the force while sitting to do the snatch. Any tips?😅
Hi Greg, thanks for the excellent video. Could you please explain the reason why for the deadlift one should start with the bar at the mid foot but for the snatch the bar should be more towards the ball ?
nick kom snatch and CJ are not maximal DL weights so you have more flexibility in how you pull, and the pull itself is not at all a maximal effort motion even when quite heavy. In other words, we pull in a way that optimizes the lift overall, not necessarily the first part (the part like the DL). That said, you can start a heavy DL w the bar over the balls of the foot for quite a while before you’re truly forced to make any adjustment, and that adjustment will arguably occur naturally as needed. So the only reason to start a non-maximal DL over mid-foot with hips higher is because you want to train the same way you plan to pull your heaviest weights. And to be clear, over balls of foot for snatch and clean is necessary to allow space for the shins in the position we need - if the bar is farther back, as shown in the video, shins/knees can’t move forward enough into position and the rest of the body has to be moved to compensate.
Is there a difference in setup, balance, and foot pressure in a clean deadlift vs powerlifting deadlift? Thanks for posting all these super informative vids. They help a long way.
Yes. Clean DL is identical in every way to the clean. PL DL will vary a bit among athletes, but in short, it's whatever works best for them to move the most weight, which typically means bar farther back, hips higher and weight farther back among other details like back extension (or lack thereof) and possibly narrower stance.
Greg Everett is in the same league as Dean Smith of UNC basketball. He is the best.
Oh boy was I doing it wrong..
Can you please make a video about the startposition in the clean specifically? This would be great!
No, because it's covered here...
Question regarding the clean. I’m just getting started and am working on technique but to get stronger, should I place more emphasis on building a stronger lower or upper body? I ask because this lift seems to be intended as a “push” off the ground vs pull so is I focus on a specific area so that I can eventually lift more?
Thanks!
You need both, but all of the Olympic lifts are driven primarily by the lower body. Just follow an existing training program from a reputable coach when you're getting started instead of trying to reinvent a perfectly good wheel.
Free (and premium) ones here - www.catalystathletics.com/olympic-weightlifting-workouts/training-programs/
What do you think of starting the pull with shoulders behind the bar, then getting forward, like Arley Mendez does?
Helps longer femur lifters using the legs?
It's just one of many variations of a dynamic start. His shoulders are above the bar when it leaves the floor. You can pull a bar off the floor with the shoulders a little behind the bar if you have the right combination of weight and speed, but unless you actively keep pulling backward, i.e. sitting back to your heels, your body will naturally adjust to bring the shoulders overt the bar pretty quickly. I wouldn't say that such a start helps longer legged lifters use their legs more - what allows any lifter to use their legs more is the position described in this video in which the hips are pretty low, posture upright, knees over the bar... in other words, you're in more of a squat-esque position rather than a high-hipped, bar/knees back, shoulders way forward deadlift position - can't use your legs if your knees are hardly bent.
Whenever I initially pull off the floor, I tend to tighten up my back, and it causes the bar to go forward instead of coming back to me. How do I fix this?
You need to have your back already set tight before you start lifting...
Sir can you make a video for perfect snatch stands
I don't know what a snatch stand is.
Hi Greg, thank you for the amazing information as always. I feel like Neo in the Matrix learning all the things when I watch your videos, ultimately to fall off the building when trying to jump 😹. Question about starting position, my coach always tells me to start my clean with my shoulders “over the bar” in my starting position, however when I do so the drive off of the ground feels very posterior chain dominant with little quad involvement. If I sit my butt lower with a more upright posture in this video, I feel much better leg drive through the quads from the starting position, and my foot feels much more balanced and sturdy. I guess what I’m asking is if the intent of the starting position is to give you a foundation to drive up vertically through the quads as opposed to a more “over the bar”, posterior chain dominant drive. Thank you.
Opinions vary about how far over the bar the shoulders should be - ultimately the "right" way is the way that allows you to lift the most weight (not immediately, necessarily, but ultimately). I prefer "over" the bar as in shoulder joint directly above the bar or very slightly in front, which places "the shoulder" (i.e. the leading edge of the mass of the shoulder) in front of the bar.
I can’t curve my lower spine like asked is it a mobility issue but it curves correctly as I start lifting
Most likely primarily but see this - th-cam.com/video/UVVTWBVY170/w-d-xo.html
Hi,
I was wondering if you can point your feet/toes forward instead of the angle?
You CAN but it's not a good way to do it for 99% of lifters.
I have very long arms and legs and my knees don't push into my arms when I lift. Are there exceptions to the rule or am i doing something wrong? If i don't have a wide grip for my snatch, I cant hit the right spot for hip contact on my snatch.
Hard to say without seeing you, but if you have long legs, I have trouble believing you can be in a good starting position without them being in contact with the insides of your arms.
@@CatalystAthletics I have a video of my most recent meet on my channel if that provides any help
Should the legs be as wide open as the arm position (and hip mobility) allows? Meaning: the fact that the legs in clean cannot be as wide as in snatch is solely because your arms are more narrow in the starting position? Thank you
With few potential exceptions, yes
What is wrong with me. I feel like I cannot engage my lats and keep tension in my arms without touching my legs with my inner elbow in the start position.
Inner elbows can touch legs in the start
For someone with longer legs (Torso: 21'; Femurs: 16'), should my hips be higher or lower than my knees?
Hit the points explained in this video and your hips will be in the right position.
@@CatalystAthletics Should I tilt my hips forward in order to get my shoulders more over the bar?
could you help
my knees lock out in power position
Do what's recommended in this video - th-cam.com/video/5NleQRu_hvY/w-d-xo.html
And get the "push your knees back" idea out of your head because that's usually the source of the problem.
How wide/far apart should your feet be? Is it mostly a preference thing?
th-cam.com/video/xNJwxfxiBew/w-d-xo.html
@@CatalystAthletics thank you!
Does starting with hips on knee level force the lifter to excessively lean back during triple extension, instead of extending vertically?
No, why would it do that?
Maybe because you are less “over the bar” and shoulders go behind the bar after the bar passes the knee?
@@emilianocalvi1118 But you are not less over the bar - in fact, more of your body is over the bar rather than just the top of your trunk. And the shoulders only move behind the bar right after the knees if you don't stay over it in the pull properly. I think you're confusing this position with being behind the bar on your heels and/or pulling backward, and neither is true unless you do either mistakenly.
See this about staying over the bar - th-cam.com/video/5NleQRu_hvY/w-d-xo.html
Catalyst Athletics ok I think I got the point. Thank you for the answer!
I would say it's the opposite. When I start with hips low, by the time I get to the power position my legs still have enough bend (closed knee angle) that I can effectively drive with my legs. With higher hips, the knee angle is more open, so when the power position is reached, the lifter has very little knee extension left and must use more hip extension with the torso going way back, resulting in a loopy bar path. As to shoulders being over the bar, more is not better. With hips high and the bar close to the shin, the shoulders are too far forward which shifts the center of gravity of the lifter-barbell system forward. This results in either the bar swing away from the lifter or the lifter having to immediately get the shoulders behind the bar (like in a deadlift) to restore balance over the lifter's midfoot. Neither of these result in optimal lifting technique.
Hey Greg, very new beginner learning to do Olympic lifts. Could you please talk a little slower or pause as you show these critical errors and correct ways to go about the lifts? As a non-native English speaker, I found this a little hard to follow. Thank you.
PS: Amazing content that's why the above request from a fellow Olympic lifting enthusiast.
So the bar is at the balls of the foot rather than the mid foot?
Yes, although as I said, it can be adjusted slightly according to proportions if a lifter finds it helpful (a short, mesomorphic lifter may be able to start closer to midfoot while still meeting the other criteria outlined here, and a very tall lifter may need to start it a bit farther forward). But for most, trying to start it over midfoot will prevent the proper position by preventing the shins moving into the necessary angle.
@@CatalystAthletics ah! That's why my transition from powerlifting to weightlifting sucked for 6 months till now. I even injured my ass and my lower back. Dang! I wish this video was i bit early. Thanks man! Keep up the social service!
Shouldn't the bar be pulled over mid foot for everyone? It's our centre of gravity .
Couple things: First, we're not even talking about pulling - we're talking about the starting position. The bar and body move in the pull relative to each other. In the case of the snatch and clean, the bar moves backward slightly early in the pull. Second, and more important, the bar is only 1 of 2 parts of the system that needs to be balanced - the other is the body. The two of them combined are what needs to be balanced over the foot, not the bar in isolation. The larger the % the bar is of the total system mass, the closer it will need to be over the middle of the foot for that system to be balanced because the more influence it will have over the total mass of the system. That simply means that the closer you get to a legitimate maximal deadlift weight, the sooner the bar itself needs to be balanced over the foot, eventually meaning the moment it separates from the floor... but as I have to say repeatedly on these videos, we're not talking about deadlifts - we're talking about the snatch and clean.
So it makes no sense to start the bar over the middle of the foot with a weight that doesn't require it when that forces the body into a position that makes it impossible to lift in the optimal position for the task at hand - a snatch or clean, not just standing up any possible way.
So when are we gonna get a 10 hour conversation between Greg and Rippetoe?
I realize you were being sarcastic (and it's appreciated) but you'll find more productive discussions about religion and politics. Rippetoe's stance is based on three flawed premises. First, he thinks that the current start position is a "holdover" from the pre-1964 rules when the bar was not allowed to come in contact with the body. In the 1970s the former Soviet Union had experts in biomechanics (Roman and Zhekov come to mind) determine the best lifting technique so that the Soviet sports juggernaut could dominate the rest of the world. Yet somehow, these experts completely missed the boat on the best start position. Second, because other countries recruit lifters who are more athletic than our lifters and then pump them full of steroids, the coaches really don't care about optimal technique because their athletes can compensate with their superior athleticism and strength. Third, Rippetoe has posted three videos where each lifter, who previously had a low-hip start position, was asked to use a high-hip position with bar over the midfoot. Each lifter was able to pull the bar higher and faster (although the "faster" part is subjective because no actual data was collected) with Rippetoe's preferred start position. However, if you take the time to look at each lifter's technique, they all have a very novice pull where they lead with their torso, have very little knee extension, and basically swing the bar up. We know from the kettlebell folks that the best way to swing a KB is with high hips and a hip hinge, not a squat. So Rippetoe's start position basically placed the lifters in the best position for them to use their hip-hinge dominant pull technique, completely ignoring the fact that this type of pull is suboptimal.
@@MikeXCSkier I was serious, Starting Strength and Aasgard Company are one of the leaders in solid western strength training research. The west is so far behind what the Eastern Bloc was doing as far as I know, and that shows in how athletes from those former countries still do so well in strength sports they compete in. I'd be interested to hear Mark and Greg give their opinions on whatever instead of being silo'd
@@InvisibleHotdog Thanks for replying. I don't think Starting Strength or the Aasgard Company do any actual research, certainly not in house. There was this study whose lead author, John Petrizzo, is a Starting Strength coach. www.asep.org/asep/asep/JEPonlineJUNE2016_Petrizzo.pdf I will be writing a critique of this study.
This is Rippetoe's latest on his preferred start position:
th-cam.com/video/c4MZEN5YCt4/w-d-xo.html&lc=z22lz30j5tmhgd3jx04t1aokgoa4up5asimnw4fjgomrbk0h00410.1559465425748655
You are correct that the Eastern Bloc was (is) way ahead of us. The start position that Greg discusses was developed over 40 years ago by two Soviet biomechanics experts, Roman and Zhekov. Rippetoe's view, however, is that the modern start position is just based on years of "tradition" rather than science. In one of the many long forum posts where Rippetoe's idea was debated, someone brought up Roman's work and Rippetoe was asked how he would respond to Roman's biomechanical analysis of the start position and pull. Rippetoe's response: he didn't care what Roman said. He literally said that. He just preaches that his way is more efficient, and in the above video he explains that the pull is like a trebuchet.
It's funny because in the comments to Rippetoe's video I also mention the work of the Soviet's and reference Roman and Zhekov. I insulted no one and attempted to present facts. One guy, who was obviously a Rippetoe disciple, did not address any of my points and simply called me a fucking idiot. This same guy in another post claimed that those of us who disagree with Rippetoe have no facts on our side and simply yell insults. Let that sink in.
A debate would be pointless because Rippetoe does not play fair. He dismisses exercise science as flawed except when it supports his position. The study I linked above - it found that using Rippetoe's preferred start position resulted in a 2% increase in power output. Except the result was not statistically significant. This did not deter Rippetoe from claiming victory. He explained why we shouldn't care that the result was not statistically significant and by doing so showed that he had absolutely no clue what the term "statistically significant" actually means. Here is the video where he discusses this with study-author Petrizzo himself. th-cam.com/video/Fa54c3oFjjs/w-d-xo.html
The discussion about statistical significance starts at around 7:30. The sad part is that Petrizzo, who is a college professor with a doctorate, also does not seem to know what the term "statistical significance" means. He also seems to think that a 2% increase in power output somehow equates to lifting 2% more on the platform. That's not how it works, but Rippetoe just makes this stuff up as he goes along. Need I say more?
@@InvisibleHotdog I wasted a lot of time years ago arguing with him - I couldn't be less interested in doing it any more.
If we concede the west is behind, how does it make sense for the west to lift in a way (Rippetoe's) that the more dominant countries do not? It's the same argument he's always made about the low bar back squat for weightlifters. The premise is logically flawed.
I've been giving my opinions on the matter for 10+ years in books, articles and videos. My opinions on the starting position are shared by every weightlifting coach in the world, in particular those far more experienced and accomplished than I am - I'm not trying to sell something new that's contrary what the best in the world do. In other words, the onus is entirely on Rippetoe to prove his point, not on me or anyone else on this side of things - our point has been proven for decades by the best coaches and weightlifters in the world. How can I or anyone else possibly add to that volume of crystal clear evidence with any discussion, even one 10 hours long?
The idea that those involved in this sport - people who dedicate their entire lives to it as athletes, coaches and researchers, entire nations that pour inordinate resources into studying it to find every possible performance advantage - are wrong, and a guy who has zero actual experience with the sport is the one who figured out the secrets of the starting position and squatting for weightlifting is, to put it generously, exasperatingly absurd. No amount of fact, evidence, reason or discussion will change the mind of someone to whom his positions on these things make sense.
Those of us who compete and coach in the sport will continue to do what proves to be most effective and not waste time defending those methods to people who are neither invested in the sport nor contributing anything to it.