They sold you the panel, now they want $20 more each for grounding parts? Scam? Anyhow, Support Kieras plans at www.buymeacoffee.com/JOHNDANIEL or ko-fi.com/john4kiera & see the *JD DESIGNED AFFORDABLE SURVIVAL OFF GRID KIT list* amzn.to/42cdjBX
@@dagordon1150 Yes. I have to bring them up to post office to get them priced. May have to take them to Fed Ex, What ever is cheapest to you. Either way, they are yours. I had to spend a week off everything to deal with a close friends losses. But getting back on track.
The reason for "bonding" non current carrying metallic components to "ground" is to equalize the electrical potential to ground in the event of a short circuit inside the equipment. If you come in contact with those now energized components, you could die. This could save your life. As someone who has nearly died from an electrocution due to a missing bond to the ground, I am fanatic for proper grounding and bonding. I do agree with you relating to rebar for a ground rod. I would refer you to your local electrical code to determine if rebar and what diameter is accepted in your locality. Lightning will destroy almost anything. There is no grounding system that is truly effective against a direct lightning strike. Directing lightning away from your solar panels, as you described, is a valid point. BTW: the metal on my panels/wind turbines and neutral conductors have been bonded to ground rods for over 20 years. There are no failures yet due to lightning, even though there has been lightning in the area multiple times. I just opened the box, so I'll probably get hit next week! 16:57
People who find voltage coming from their solar panel frames are the folks who worry me 😂. They need to ask why one isolated piece of aluminum (solar panel frames) makes its own power, but another one of identical build (aluminum window frame) don't. And funny thing is when I removed all the ground wires it disappeared. People who put a array up far from their homes ground rod and don't connect the solar ground to their home also seem to have no transient voltage from their panel frames. Hmmm.
You are correct, The DC circuit (+ and - ) are unbonded and doesn't require a 4:32 ground BUT You most definitely want your panels bonded together and all bonded to ground for safety reasons. Lightning needs a circuit back to the ground. If your panels are not bonded to ground and lightning strikes it will find a way back to ground through your dc wiring most likely and is a substantially greater hazard for the occupants inside. Grounding your panels on your house will protect you inside as it creates a faraday cage of sorts around your house.
you know i came to find out if i had to ground my x4 260w panels, but im watching and in ahhh the father daughter relationship, im a father of a 15 year old and she hardly talk to me:( i was watching and actually forgot about why i was here. God bless you both.
I never let Kiera get on junk filled Cell phones, social web sites or have friends who don't respect her future. 50 years ago we would have called that parenting, today they call that being a mean prick! A title I accept with glee!
Thanks for finally putting out reasonable advice on this. Foldable ground solar panels never have a ground point so I never understood why so many insist on grounding their panels.
I mounted 12 solar panels on a shipping container. I'm grounding the rack system just because it is higher than the container but was thinking the same about putting something taller close by to attract the lighting. The container is situated between our house and a field. Thanks for the video!
It is good to see you all up and about. I was thinking about the grounding issue during a Texas lightning storm yesterday morning. There are plenty of natural lightning rods growing around me. The spark gap thing sounds like it might be okay. I am not an expert on this so I will just watch and read and try to learn. Thank you.
The absolute best method to protect solar is a lightning rail, installing on metal roofs, or a nearby pole as described preferred circuit for such lightning.
AFAIK, there are 2 different reasons for grounding: (a) for functionality reasons (AC transformer, electrical wire fence, ...) and (b) for safety. With (a) you connect one of the wires to the ground which acts as an extra conductor, and with (b) you connect metal frame parts to an earthing rod or loop. With (b) in place, you prevent people from being shocked when touching the metal frame if a damaged DC or AC cable also touches that frame. Without grounding, the electricity goes from the defective cable via the frame through your body to the ground, which can be deadly. With the frame grounded, the pathway of least resistance is via the ground wire to the ground, so when you touch the frame then, almost no or very little current will go through your body. As well as the situation that the Ground Fault Current Interuptor can detect the dangerous situation and disconnect the electricity, indicating there is a dangerous situation that should be corrected. Or in case of solar panels, the inverter detects that there is an insulation fault that should be looked in to. PV systems are being grounded for protection of your loved ones, and other people. I'm no expert, only an apprentice, the experts can correct or agree with me.
Big no shitter on getting hit with 500volts dc when the squirrel nested under a panel and shorted it to my array. Grounding is important for fatal voltage levels. Plus it hurts really bad!
You're right except that the DC circuit from your panels is an isolated circuit. There is no potential to earth ground unless you create it by bonding the return (-) to ground first. Shorting the positive wire to the frame will do nothing unless the positive and negative both are shorted. Then something is going to blow, hopefully fuses that you've installed on your panels instead of your panels. Equipment grounding is absolutely best practice where that potential exists and does include most all AC circuits and non-isolated DC circuits.
HELP! We had a solar system installed in our cabin. The company we bought from says we need it grounded and our electrician says we don’t unless it’s grid tied (it’s not) The instructions say to ground it at the inverter, another electrician told me to ground the breaker box AND the panels. I know nothing about this other than what I’ve learned in the last week or so and I still have no clue.
The best grounding video I saw. and i went over few dozen of them. Using a regular steel bar make a lot of sense. Thank you for this important information/
So called "copper ground rods" are only copper plated steel. Rebar has more ground contact area on it, has oxidation iron oxide (Fe2O3) which is rust that creates as expanding and shedding feature aids in dispersing a charge. The manufacturers of copper coated rods lobbied to get their product in codes. Problem with copper is once in the ground you get tarnishing and electrically nulling copper oxide which proven in real time reduces its conductivity by up to 40%. If you want to use a rod that is not steel use 15mm yellow brass with a silver coating of 12 mil and it is the absolute best and is what is used at server farms like Fakebook and for huge internet companies. Only $800 each!
The frames and racks of your panels need some ground path for induced voltage from nearby lightning strikes and static electricity. That has nothing to do with the DC power lines going to your inverter. Some folks just bond all the panel frames and racks together and connect them to the system ground which is a path back to the ground rod at your service entrance. I don't like this, especially for ground mounts. I add an auxiliary grounding rod at the ground mounts which creates another problem: A nearby strike will induce a voltage across the resistance between the two ground rods which will cause a destructive and dangerous current in the system ground and neutral. So I run a wire between the two ground rods and bind them together, minimizing the voltage induced between them. Alternately you could connect the frames and racks to the system ground AND an auxiliary ground rod, which will also bind the two rods together, but I don't consider that a super reliable ground, so I run a separate wire. I did a video on the issue, and wrote a blog post to accompany it. Earth grounding is NOT a simple issue, and experts don't agree on what's safe and effective. So I came up with a solution that covers all the bases--I think. th-cam.com/video/PEpsz9Jqnrs/w-d-xo.html
great vid, good humor for morning coffee, thanks kindly from great White North, off grid for 25 years, ungrounded at present, after I got my permit, great thought on the lightning attractor. I shut my batteries off if its close
The thing is your dc wires will then be your shortest path to ground through your inverter and through you who is using some equipment. You should have surge protectors on both the + and - lines on your panels. You then ground your frame so that that is the shorter path to ground. Of course you should include lightning rods at a higher level than your panels *with its own ground rod*
Your right, grounding is not part of a DC circuit. But I think you missed a point: earth ground on DC circuits serves a slightly different purpose. It's for your SAFETY. It provides the shortest path for DC current to flow in case of an unbalanced leak (positive/negative only leak, where there is little to no ISC until touched by something that completes the circuit). Without the earth ground, if the circuit has a leak, the current will flow through anything touching the ground, INCLUDING YOU. So yeah, in low voltage it's almost useless, but on an array of 10+ 600W PV panels where the circuit has 400V+, it's a life saver....
I think I've said here and everywhere that exceeding 60vdc should have a fault system. That includes neon alert bulbs from frame to independent ground to active grounding but not residential shared.
Exceeding 60vdc meaning input from the panels? I have circuit breakers on my solar system in my rv. My system is not grounded. My rv is not grounded. I know I’ve asked this question before, but now I’m unsure of what I should do. Can you help?
@@Blackbird-zo1su If your choosing to go as high as 60 volts DC, you need real safety by using at least inline fuses or breakers. I prefer staying under 44 volt, ( pair of 100 watt panels in series is 44 open voltage ) and likely to be felt but not likely to injure. Over that it gains deadly levels fast. You do not need to ground the panel frames, no one has to. But creating a short safety is wise no matter what your voltage is. Best breakers to use are Mathus, you need a box amzn.to/4fgc0Zd And sized breakers that are just higher then your panel amps amzn.to/3SiWDVN Example - 300 watts solar would be 25 amps in a 12 volt system. Always buy a few extra breakers, and always get a box with at least 1 or 2 more spaces than your solar already uses so you can expand or option other sources.
But you would need Residual circuit breaker and 3-wire wiring for this to work. There are still 2-wire systems in old houses which only breaks on short circuit and won't protect you from injury if properly grounded or not. Nowadays when the household devices are mainly plastic such events are less frequent unless you are in e.g. bathroom.
Very smart. If you ever share wiring with a grid designed system your looking for problems. I wired to use my power in dedicated lines, and never lost a solar panel in 16 years.
I think you make a good argument regarding attracting lightning to a different ground source other than through your modules and houses grounding system. I.e. erecting a large lightning rod or grounding your houses via an existing perimeter fence as these would make for a safer path to discharge a lighting bolt around a houses property. With that said, for many homes in the U.S. these methods of handling lightning surges just are not available. Some houses do not have an existing fence they can turn into a lightning attractor/arrestor and building a large lightning rod taller than the house is just not feasible as there often isn’t any yard space. Although at times it seems the NEC is pedaling new codes to sell additional electrical components and installation, I do not think at its core that it is its purpose. ESPECIALLY with regard to grounding codes the purpose is to continue to make residential electrical circuits safer. In fact, building a large lighting rod or creating a grounding fence as you have suggested would In the end be more expensive to the homeowner(for most houses) than bonding solar modules together as part of a homes lighting protection. You are correct in saying a circuit does not need a ground to operate, the modules will produce power without a ground. However, the grounding conductor is installed for use in worst case scenarios such as a lightning surge BUT ALSO for shorts within a circuit or static electricity build up. These problems are all best solved via a ground. To divert unwanted current quickly rather than exist as unwanted voltage running across the module’s frames. You mention that vehicles and tractors are not grounded to earth. Of course they are not, having a constant connection to earth in all motor vehicles across the country is not feasible. However if it was I bet it would be required. Now consider trucks that move hazardous materials, static buildup within the truck due to normal operation can ignite flammable materials and this has been known for many years. Sometimes these trucks DO have a connection to earth via a chain dragged along the ground to dissipate the voltage differential. Perhaps for off grid systems or systems in dispersed residential settings a better grounding system should be in place than using the house ands its infrastructure(solar modules) to handle lightning surges. But in most cases, congested neighborhoods would be better off with each house able to handle a surge independently. The modules on the roof could be damaged by lightning and if no path to earth is created the surge could burn up the wiring of the solar system causing a fire. The goal is NOT to attract lightning(even if this is an unwanted byproduct). Lightning is an unpredictable energy source and it is best for a house to just be as prepared as it can be.
Thank you for the video. After watching your video I did not ground my system. I am having problems with my EG4 inverters. flickering lights, incinsitent power. Tech support asked if I grounded my panels. I told them no. they told me I needed to. I decided to use some leftover pv wire I had and ground my panels to satify that being the issue or not. While installing the grougning I could hear a electrich buzz every time i touched my pannels, I even got a light shock at one point. I pulled out my multimeter and had 140VAC and 1amp on the panel racking and frames. Turns out many all in one inverters do not isolate their PV inputt from AC output and it leaks into the pv lines and gets into the racking somehow? Once grounded the cuurent is no longer in the panles. just wonding your thoughts on this? would appriciate the input. also grounging the array did not solve any of the issues i was having with flickering and what not. thanks
What do you suppose caused totally isolated aluminum frames to be electrified? It's like saying I installed a inverter and solar into my Dodge van, now my Chevy pick up parked near it shocks me every time I touch it. Literally, the same way of thinking! The voltage you get when touching a ground wire to a panel is from the existing ground wire "supplied common ( bonded circuits)" loop being made, It happens when your panels are mounted on metal racking on metal frames or metal roofs. This does not ever happen to any electrically floating un grounded panels mounted on wood! Wonder why right! Induced current is looking for a conductor when your playing with it, and find it in reverse by a ground that's connected to a homes existing system of wiring which has a bonded Common(neutral)/Ground design. Technically, your making a jumper, and it makes many things behave odd. People seem to think a inverters output is identical to a power plants system, it is not. It is a imperfect clone not designed to rely on earth ground for balance. It's not a identical product. Yet, using a All-In-One inverter charger is not the problem that will make 100% non-electrified aluminum become current carrying items, connecting it to something upstream is what does that. See how it all behaves when you DO NOT connect and share your inverter to the homes metal, ground, or bonded utility based and still connected to utility, system!
@@JOHNDANIEL1 thank you for the reply I appricieat your input. My panels are mounded on a wood frame i made 2x6 with big 6x6 post. then i put unistrut on top of that. I am off grid and do not have any utility power. when I ran my AC out from the invertter to my home panel i did run a line, neutral, and ground and have my main home circuit breaker ground neutral bonded. Would you still think i should remove the ground from my inverter to my main panel with this type of set up?
@@chasegj Yes, Just do a experiment. Remove the ground line on the inverter or run 2 wire for 120 volt, 3 wire for 240 volt and watch how the whole thing changes. Consider how you would wire the same system into a old school bus/RV, Grounding is to chassis, not to anything else. NO ground rod, no ground strap related to AC voltage on the panels, but some do a DC ground to chassis due to static from 70 mph air flowing over panels. And no one gets electrocuted, it is safe there, so its same for a home system. RV's do not bond ground and neutral and if they do they tell you to separate it if installing a inverter. The ground on them is often only metal BOX to chassis, not a shared Neutral bar to Chassis. I prove this all by disconnecting the ground, plugging into a inverter, and then measuring the volts from the ground wire to the ground post on the inverter and getting wild voltage on it anytime it is fed into a bonded power box. This feedback sometime affects your DC negative to your panels.
I'm about to install a 360w solar panel backup system into my cabin which is on the grid. I bought a SunGoldPower 12v inverter/charger that will be fed from a regular household 15 amp circuit/outlet. The batteries are charged by the inverter/charger when the grid is up, but by the solar panels when the grid is down. The inverter/charger has a ground to the 200amp service panel through regular 14 awg house wiring. But it also has another grounding lug off its metal case. I was contemplating using that lug to ground my solar panels, but found your video as I do research on grounding. I think I'll do some more research, but this video has me re-thinking what I thought before.
Just realize the design of the power grid, with the earth involved, power created by rotating mass is not in any way the same as the generation/conversion of power from DC current. The "HAIR ON FIRE" panic stricken fear mongers who demand you ground connect all your DC circuits would fire you in 1 second if you drove a ground rod through the floor of their pick up to "ground it" since it has a AC alternator and DC circuits. Solar for safety is fused. All DC should be fused. But be very careful back flowing your inverter through some residential wiring since it can be bonded common with neutral (ground direct) and may fry your inverters or introduce stray voltage in your existing ground circuits.
Thank you for the quick reply. I do know that the main panel they just installed is bonded common to neutral at the outside box. The power is then distributed inside to a 200amp service panel which (of course) is not bonded ground to neutral. It's one of those circuits that feeds my living room outlet where the SunGoldPower inverter/charger will be plugged in. Keep up the good work, it's appreciated by us still "in school". @@JOHNDANIEL1
@@avlisk When we install the common 240 volt 6000 watt Sun Gold into a space like your doing, we use this transfer switch amzn.to/3T9ItYr system. If you use a smaller 120 volt inverter with nothing over 3000 watt you can use this single sided model amzn.to/3GrP7ld
If you are looking for a truly awesome lightning repelling/diverting system, look up Nikola Tesla's lightning rod/repeller. It looks almost like an umbrella, but is designed to perform very similar to how you describe setting up the solar panels on metal roofing. Really interesting stuff. Another thing that most people fail to grasp is that when lightning strikes the ground, the ground itself becomes energized and having something grounded to the spot that is energized can cause something that is sometimes known as "ground source lightning" and can also cause those grounded objects to become energized and be much MUCH more dangerous than an ungrounded metal object. The main reason I am so involved with grounding/ground isolating stuff is my expensive radio equipment requires a good ground for proper signal propagation, but improper grounding can cause ground loops and lightning and even electric discharge damage by those same electromagnetic waves being transmitted and received. I learned a long time ago that there is a LOT of bad information out there regarding grounding. Another thing people don't realize is that electricity does not just take the path of less resistance, it is actually really complex. See Ohm's law to truly understand how electrical energy will take all paths to ground and divide equally along those paths according to the resistance and then faraday's laws to see how adding inductance and capacitance can have a major impact on it. The simple subject of grounding is so insanely complex that most electricians and electrical engineers don't fully understand it, there is just so much nuance that goes into it.
I base my study and results on 2 things, Sir Benny Franklin and Faraday's laws. Faraday using a all copper roof on a cabin next to a all wood shingle roof was trying to prove how copper was dangerous, He was a pissy man. He learned the opposite. He learned that electrochemistry was not that simple, the lightning on the project in north France on the coast, right in the marsh, a storm hot spot, it struck the carbon loaded chimney of the wooden house 3 times. Never touched the copper house or its chimney right next to it. Conclusion by Vander Hoff the resident, the copper make the house protected. Private notes to his parish. In reality it made the load of the ground sourcing much more spread out. In reality, lightning DID strike both. But the concentration of energy diffusing outward was spread out on the all copper, leaving no real damage. But the energy was so focused on the wood framed houses chimney it blew the top off it and the cast iron frame from Ingles ship wrights, which both homes had, down below warped. Little is known of his off Britain experiments done by fellows, but his findings on electrolysis caused by as he put it, the silent energy, showed how the later designs of the Faraday cage came about. Note to be accurate, I am prejudiced toward his Savant Qualities, I am kin to Sarah Barnard, she was married to Michael Faraday, her grand father is direct blood line from my Germanic/Lithuanian roots.
Grid tied solar should always be grounded, your inverter can fail and modern inverters couple to the grid transformerless. Lightning is not an issue, static buildup on the panels is. Static voltage can build up on the frames and arc to the DC circuit.
Great video. Quick question on inverters. I have a standalone inverter with an isolated transformer in it for ac 120v output. Should I bond neutral to ground or leave it floating. On the Victron Energy 1200va it has an internal jumper to select between the two. Thanks!
You need to have a neutral to ground bond for your circuit breakers to trip in a fault (hot wire touching metal that it shouldn't touch). You should only make the bond in one location. Bonding in more than one location is also dangerous. Typically the bonding happens at the breaker panel. The easiest way to bond at the main panel is to put the neutral and ground wires on the same bus. If they are separated in the panel then look for a bonding jumper or screw that connects them. If there isn't bonding at the panel then the inverter could be bonded. Many inverters and generators aren't internally bonded to prevent the mistake of creating two bonds.
Hello John, i watched this video and read the interesting comments. I remembered watching a video where the people had done an off grid instal (i think it was 7000 watts of panels). (i just wrote on their comments for them to watch this video- especially with diversion aspect). i just rewatched it, yes they grounded their panels through the controllers from what i could see (victron controller with earth). They had a lightning strike near the panels and it fried the controllers and inverter. They are now using surge protectors. The reason for this is that they mention that fuses simply dont react fast enough when massive lightning strikes pops in the voltage. they have also added further ground rods (copper). They are in a desert type area and they were told by solar company that long runs of the wiring (over 100 feet) are an attractant to lightning. Therefore more grounding to offset and make a channel for the lightning. The surge protection makes sense to me in the sense of topping massive voltage influx for whatever reason. However, i would be interested in your opinion on the "long " runs of wire scenario, being an attractant. Here is the story on their channel: th-cam.com/video/7DvIjAvMge0/w-d-xo.html (channel is Tiny Shiny home). Many thanks
I've had a 100w solar panel since '13, initially just an experiment in learning about solar, couple yrs ago moves it to front yd to supply pwr to charge controller for 33ah lead acid battery to power 12v flood light for my flagpole at night, just got 'nuther pair of 100w panels so can power electric chicken fence to keep predators from killing them all, again. My orig panel has never been grounded in either location.
Some inverter companies even say NOT to ground either leg of the DC output. Panels on a metal rack become grounded via the frame/structure of the rack. It may almost impossible to keep the metal frames isolated.
John, I’m sorry but you’re completely wrong on some electrical fundamentals. The ground is not part of an AC electrical circuit. The power plant generators do not need the ground to create electricity. An electrical circuit functions just fine without a ground, which is the way homes used to be wired back in the day. Electricity does not inherently want to go to ground, it always wants to return to its source. When it leaves the generator it must return to it. There are only two main reasons distribution systems are grounded: lightning and being able to clear faults and stabilize voltage in the event of faults. Lightning is derived from the earth and tries to find the easiest path back to it. Grounding transformers, points along poles, running lightning wires, and having rods at your home’s service entrance in theory helps with that. If a fault like a short occurs where a line goes down on the ground, grounding of the system can help to trip the substation breakers, but it mainly helps to keep the line to ground voltages from rising too high, which is a problem with faults in an ungrounded system. Also, a residential transformer is single phase, split into two hots and a neutral. The common is not derived from the ground, it is a neutral wire tapped from the center of the transformer winding and gives half the voltage compared to the two hot wires. That neutral is then grounded for the above reasons. You might see a small amount of current constantly running on the ground of your house, but this is not electricity “going to ground.” Because distribution systems have many points of neutral grounding, it creates a parallel path for current to return to its source. So electricity is returning to the source through the earth. Check out SWER
You must be a distribution utility worker like I was. All the nearly 12,000 miles of cables we ran from 300+ massive wind turbines should not work now. However, I'd suggest you prove your point by cutting your/the ground wire ( neutral/common bond ) from your electrical box. The one to the ground rod and the one to the ground strap on the power pole that gives your center return. When your power on all your 120 volt outlets basically stops, then revisit your opinion on it. Center tap removed, the floating neutral on the pole wire actually is *NOT from the power plant,* it is from the ground at/after distribution sub stations, and it is no longer sufficient and balanced. Ground does not come from the power plant, I never said it does, you imagined that. 75 to 130K VAC/4 does. When it hits the substations you get a optioned rural 7200 or a industrial heavy/urban 9800 volts. *delivered from ONE WIRE, cycling @60 hertz, on one wire.* {many poles have 1,2 and even 3 HOT wires, not all are used on each transformer unless multiple phases are needed such as 277 or higher} At the Transformer that ONE energized wire and on then the local line you have is a mains tag drop, a massive GROUND EARTH Wire made ( normal neighborhood as a example) of 5 or 7 strands of 6 awg buried 9+ feet deep coiled 7 to 10 times or full underground distru style 1-5/8 rod 12 foot driven then it connects to and becomes the neutral common/neutral ground. Each following pole going away from the incoming hot circuit switch or break will have a typically bare 6 awg ground that is at the bottom of the pole. Lots of crack heads and Leftist mental patients have proven that Ground Matters as they cut the copper to steal it. Note the word GROUND = Earth. The transformer can still send you 240 volts L1 & L2 but your center tap common gone ( the ground you say does not matter ) will not give you nothing else. And 90% of items ( stoves, furnaces, AC units ) all use 120 volt side in their 240 volt input to run operations like relays, clocks, timers, and lights ) DO the test! Seriously. No shit, Do it. Remove the ground/neutral that as you say IS NOT PART OF IT, Watch the results, keep a fire extinguisher handy. science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/power7.htm BTW - Lightning does not "come from the ground" as in it arches up to the sky, stop watching Bill Nye the Science liar. Lightning ( the visual light is caused, not created due to the grounding effect) When you see lightning travel horizontally where is the start to end origin?? Not ground. It is shorted to or by the ground, not actually "from the ground" as they claim. ( Tesla vs Edison ) but gains momentum of energy due to ground.
@ Just because that website is online does not make it accurate. They are omitting key facts. Transformer secondaries have always been grounded, that doesn’t mean they need the ground to function. The grounding is for the purposes I already talked about. What you and the website are really talking about is SWER, where there is one hot line and the ground is the return. That is not used anywhere but extremely rural areas. But again, the electricity is not going to ground, it is going THROUGH the ground back to the source, ie generator. And I never said the neutral is derived from the power plant. You imagined it. I said it is derived from center tapping the winding of the pole transformer. And I said residential is single phase because it is, like you said, a single high voltage line from the 3 phases connected to the main line neutral for its complete circuit on the primary side. The substation transformer is a three phase, 4 wire distribution, with like you said a higher line to line voltage and a lower line to neutral voltage that they use for single phase residential distributions. Unless you’re in my area where the predominant distribution is ungrounded delta and all the single phase poles are connected line to line. We are not a multi grounded neutral distribution in my area. MGN gives you some amount of constantly circulating ground current because so many points of the neutral are grounded that the ground becomes a parallel path. Still, that does not mean the earth is a requirement for a transformer with a neutral to function. As long as your neutral is intact and and not corroded, you can cut your grounds to them and they will work fine. Only current imbalance travels back on the neutral anyway. A multi wire branch circuit with balanced current on the hots equals 0 returning on the neutral. And again, back in the day homes were 2 wire with no ground and they worked fine. Grounding helps to stabilize voltage in a fault and to clear faults. As far as lightning, regardless of where it really comes from, it still goes to ground, or the ground is certainly part of the actual “circuit”
@ if you cut the transformer neutral then yeah your 120v loads will go crazy. Cut the ground connection to that neutral and nothing will happen in a properly functioning system
But does it hurt to ground the aluminum frame of the solar panels? It won't protect from lightning damage, indeed will make the panels a "lightning rod", but will protect personnel from any potential buildup, either static or for feedback thru the cells from the inverter. Obviously, you can't ground panel frames on an RV, but doesn't mean a home installation isn't better if frames are grounded.
Ground if you feel its for you. But just know that about 99% of those who say they have voltage in their panel frames got it from sharing a single homes ground rod with the common neutral/structural ground bonded 120/240 utility panels, inverters ground lug, solar controllers ground lug and solar panels. So if you do ground them, DO NOT connect that circuit to the home or inverters system, ground them separately at least 30 feet away from any existing ground rod. They do collect atmospheric static in rare conditions but so does you car pop you with a static jolt from time to time.
If your frames are not earth grounded, a lightening strike will seek the easiest path to ground; through your panel circuits and through your inverter; blowing up some very expensive equipment! You ground (bond) your frames to protect that expensive equipment from the lightening surge; providing a low resistance path to ground. If the concern is the liklihood of a lightening strike to your panels, mount a 6 lightening rod near the panels; provide the lightening an easier path to ground than your panels. The DC feeding from your panels does not require a ground but most split-phase inverters do. Static charges that build up in normal operation must be drained off or risk destroying the controller electronics. The ground rod of the frames must be seperated from the equipment ground by a minimum of 10 feet to prevent backfeeding a lightening strike into your equipment ground.
Easiest path for lightning via your panels is by grounding them, it attracts the lightning by making a sure path for it. By them getting struck you will destroy your connected electronics no matter what you do just based on the flushing effect lightning has on earth ground. We want to believe, and your welcome to do so, that lightning is a thin line of electrical energy that just tracks as if by a rule the wire you installed for it. It absolutely does not. Solar arrays are more damaged due to group grounding than floating ungrounded. The more you make a massive target for lightning ( using a ground rod ) the more likely you will get your strike. Adding a nearby target that is fully attractive and taller totally prevents any lighting and sourcing your array. Consider this test. Take a 10 foot pole, add a heavy copper wire, connect to a deep ground rod, now hold that metal pole in your hands in the air during a lightning storm. Does all the lightning only go though the pole and wire? Or does or radiate into you that's holding the pole too? Now do it separately with all mounted but you not holding it and note it does not radiate into you. Same effect if you ground the solar ( represented by you holding the pole ) or make a target not connected to you ( diversion mounted to draw strikes away from you ). We choose diversion lightning rods (post) and omit our solar being the choice target.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 I presume you didn't read the entire response or misunderstood it as I indicated that the ground for the panel frames needed to be separated a significant distance from the equipment ground to avoid the flashover. Having survived 2 near lightening strikes (within 10 feet), I am well aquainted with flashover. I have had my wind turbine pole(grounded) hit by lightening several times and the panels underneath the pole were fine as was the inverter.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 That may be truth only if all parts in vincinity are insulated from ground and not "naturally" grounded by rain. E.g. for cars and caravans with solar panels. But it's usually not true for buildings, therefore even if the panel is not getting hit from lightning it will receive high voltage potential from lightning in vincity which will probably damage the regulator and other devices.
Thank you for the precious info. I have an important question if you could help me with it. I have an off-grid inverter that has a voltage of 60V between Neutral and Ground of the inverter AC output. I am new in solar systems... I hear that this voltage should be 0V in order for RCD breakers to work properly. After some research, some say that a way to solve this issue is to bridge ground and neutral on the electrical panel and ground them both. Now I can see you say that inverters don't need to be grounded, but if there is a voltage between neutral and ground and you need protection from an RCD breaker, a way must be found... I'm actually looking for a solution... What's your opinion regarding neutral/ground bridging on the inverter AC output? Thankful for any kind of reply 👍
Spot on sir. Can't believe how many people confuse how ac & dc operates. Dc wants to get back to its negative whereas ac wants to get to earth ie the physical ground.
Looking at a bunch of used panels and, some of them, the DC wires were chewed up with exposed conductors. On a van, truck or car, thats 12V DC..It gets alot more dangerous when you step that voltage passed 12 and it starts arcing through air gaps. Into you, down your aluminum ladder and into ground, when youre up there messing with them. My thoughts are wire the frames to ground, flip the breaker off during lightning then when lightning hits all your panels are potentially dead(probably not) but did you died tho? but theres some differences between fully off grid, on grid, grid tied, living in your house vs LIVING IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!!
You won't get arcing till you exceed 32 volts and not even unless you have your panels grounded will you get a arc from your positive wires. Buying used panels if about the worst thing anyone does, they were pulled due to imbalance and cell issues, no such as "oh we just wanted to upgrade" as if they are some new car model. The panels get pulled when the insurance company says they are not in spec or are failing. As for solar on vans, RV's and boats, about 2/3 who install them are running 2 or more panels in series with voltage exceeding 75 volts on average since they are using MPPT with 150 volt capacity.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Actually panel replacement on corporate solar farms are replaced when the tax write-off expires after 5 years. Depreciation is your friend when it comes to sourcing used panels.
Great vid. When I see a vid someone grounding there stuff or had there system fried, I send them to this vid. Hope you don’t mind. Bought the resistor pen from your list.
Those models have a built in isolator ground circuit, it is based on a GFCI polarization circuit. If you test them you will find that once power is removed from the grid the pass through ground at the terminals vanishes. It returns when you reconnect the grid power. This is a relay in them that does it. If you connect that ground from the house/grid to the chassis then pass it into the wiring from the inverter you will notice a 2 to 3 volt reduction in the inverters output when not on grid.
Copper is a better conductor than rebar rust has even less conductivity. You want as low resistance as possible. In the car systems there is no ground because it is floating but you can get shocked when you get in and out of the car. Look up tn tn-s and tn-c-s systems
Iron oxide concentrations in the ground is the number one attractive path for lightning on the planet, over 95%. The higher the oxidation the more the field is. But copper deposits have no known record of lighting fusion or restructuring. Just because we coat the steel rod with 1.3 mil of copper plating does not mean the copper is the actual conductor to the inrush of charge or displacement of electrons, the steel is since it's molecules are more excitable by the backflow. That micro copper coating on the rod is for the above ground connection of clamps to meet code from the 1940's not to be a diffuser of energy.
0:23: The US uses a TN-C-S grounding arrangement for the low-voltage (secondary) distribution system. The neutral wire between the secondary winding of the transformer and each house’s service disconnect is considered a PEN conductor, it combines the neutral and ground wires into one. After the service disconnect, it splits into a separate neutral wire and ground wire. However, I disagree with the statement said @ 0:25 that the transformer ground wire is part of the circuit. It’s not. It does carry current, since the neutral wire is multi-point grounded by grounding it once at the transformer and also at each house once. But it’s not supposed to be used as the *main* return path for current, neither for normal conditions nor for line-to-case faults. It’s not a SWER (single-wire earth-return) system.
What your referring to is Common / Neutral and ground Bonding. A process is to increase the speed and safety of the circuit breakers. By doing so you get the line ( hot ) less able to default the energy into a identical size conductor ( neutral/common). Just do what 3 teens in Dallas did, Walk up to a few dozen poles and chop the "non circuit" ground wire. See how many smart meters responded back to the utility with shut down request. Then it was over 200 of them. It is a part of the engineered design to promote the center taps balance and return. When we installed over 130 massive wind turbines in the Texas Panhandle, western Nebraska, and most of southern Idaho from 2005 to 2008 the swash control switch on the transformers readings came solely from the ground cables. Not the HVT or the TRC. A simple test used in the past was to connect the hot line to a ground directly to check the amp draw before circuit interruption. If Ground was not or never a circuit, it would do nothing.
I thank you for this but I see knee jerk dismissal of expertise or the civil service used by lobbyists to defend monopoly or consumer abuse or pollution a million times. I am learning from you and that's a great gift, I thank you again. I've listened some more and it just keeps getting better! God bless you for explaining like I'm your own child!
Kiera has collected 2 more for rebuilding/repairing. 4 total now. She has the Murray, very old old ladies rider with only 54 hours on it, to make a fruit orchard trailer/water hauler, but it has a failed governor in it, so she got a case and gasket kit and new governor on the way. The other Huskee is a forest model to abuse, bush hog plan to deal with the back of her property it has as she says a transmission drive pully bound up, so it will be fixed when she collects enough $$ for one. Yes, I call it her property since I can't live forever and parents should build futures for their kids, not shove them off in crazy people making schools.
In low voltage dc it doesn’t make sense to ground it, however if you are running a 500v series and a positive wire gets a rodent in it and contacts it to the array you could be in for a bad day
@@JOHNDANIEL1 I’ve had 450 volt string go live to my array from squirrel damage. Flat knocked my dink in the dirt, grounded would have been better for me
Still do not ground it, Fuse it. Order you some burn safe fuse links, Add them in. Contact Josh with Windy Nation, he will explain why to fuse what you have. And the best thing for dealing with squirrels chewing on your wiring is spraying risky areas with rustoleum underbody rubberized coating amzn.to/3HXWKRw . Place some cardboard under the wiring to protect back drop, and spray coat it with 2 coats. It retards sun damage, and it makes varmits vomit! Will last 10+ years.
So how does one get rid of static electricity build up? I can get a shock from my 48v batteries and inverter charger. None of it is earthed. I wouldn't earth for lightning but rather for a short circuit
Same static that you would get from your car, a aluminum storm door or RV body is what can come from solar panels if installed right. Yes, 48 volt is getting into the deadly voltage, That is why I am 36 volt and less. Earth grounding it is not a solution to produced DC under 200 volts since it will not naturally equalize to the ground during a short, you or a item in line will become the path. Not the same as AC that is checking to ground 60 times a second. The best thing is simply isolating with covers and proper breakers and durable battery switches on your system. Also, not running to many panels in series so you keep input voltages lower to prevent a high ended differential. I use a max of 65 to 70 volts solar on any 48 volt build to prevent such leakage from a failed Mosfet or Diode that may put my system at risk. .
nice practical anyway since there is no fault detection device for dc to disconnect on s/c to frame ( If a squirrel bites through) No point in earthing for auto disconnect anyway .
Good afternoon John Thanks for the informative video. You had mentioned a lighting rod design that I'm having trouble picturing. We'll locate in a lighting prone area and would like to protect ourselves. Could you please explain the rod in more detail? Thanks again Scott
You use 4 sections of 1-3/8 Fence Top rail that is sold in 21 foot -6" sections. Very Cheap. You can get used on classifieds like craigslist or facebook often. Set them in concrete in a triangle 3 points at 4 feet apart 18" deep in concrete. You taper them to a peak, using bolts or plating connect the tops as you place another one in the center with a added 10 foot 6" piece down low under the 4th one ( single piece home depot $15), to end up about 29 feet total tube height. Very stable. You place 1/2 rebar up the center of the 4th one, the middle tube till its 2 feet out the top of the center tube with additional 1/2 rebar welded or clamped with heavy cable clamps till your down to the bottom and into the ground of the center tube about 2+ foot deeper than its 12 to 18" concrete. I may do a drawing and place it on my web page www.mydcvolts.com that I have been forgetting to update for a few months LOL! This 30+ feet is generally much much taller than any solar, much taller by 10+" feet than a 2 story home, and more static attractive than any trees. You can go a little higher with a little common sense addition or adaptation. Mine cost about $130 to build, and is why I will not worry about my solar.
Hi John, thank you for this very informative video. I now know that I do not need to ground my solar panels, although may I also ask if I need to ground surge protectors on the output of my inverter and dc input from my solar panels. My surge protectors has ground terminals and until now I am not sure if I need to ground it. Thanks!
You can and should on a GFCI or shock protection circuit using a new and totally separate ground rod far from the existing ( 20 + feet) then add a 10 awg ground to any surge protector. There is no need to ground any DC voltage under 36 volts unless its to chassis ( RV-BOAT-AUTO) . You can add a ground to them using the system your using for AC voltage but you should use a large Schottky diode or non active circuit ground when doing so.
My trackers are lower than my neighbors metal shop and a 40 foot high oak tree. I measured ohms between the electrical panel ground and my steel pole in the ground mount. It was about 1100 ohms. I'm not going to ground it better than that. If I did it would attract lightning and blow everything to hell.
You are so correct no smart people and offices they just make rules and laws being annoying dear call DC voltage work if you ground easy voltage, you make a tremendous resistance to it running a dizzy voltage get you more trouble people do not realize and it is true what you say if you have solar panels, 6 inches above your roof and the grounding are you doing is building a serious lightning rod. Have a good day. Enjoy yourself and keep making videos.
Glad I watched this, I'm about to mount my panels, the brackets are already installed on the roof of my shed. Now I know I don't have to use the little aluminum clips between the panels or a ground wire to a ground rod. What about the sub-panel that is supplied by the inverter with 240v, the circuits will need a ground to meet code ? So do I connect a ground wire from the main panel? There is no other connection to the grid system, yet. Or would I connect to a ground rod (rebar) ?
When you go to AC voltage and anything over 60 volts DC then proper breakers and grounding is required on the AC side if its to join a existing system, the DC side can be left ungrounded as long as you have proper breakers but if your doing the most evil thing on the planet *GRID TIE* connecting then you must pay all the massive fees, follow every rule, connect to all ground connections and expect your pay off in a few hundred years. As for the panel frames, you can ground by choice unless forced to do so, using a ground rod on them separate from anything your house is using and over 25 feet from a existing ground. Myself, I choose NOT to attract lightning to my panels but instead a dedicated lightning post but if you can get good replacement insurance on the panels then it's not a horrible idea to attract lightning so you can get new ones ever so often from a insurance claim.
You should ground if its part of a building with its own path to building's ground unless you have metal roof. But not ground the power wires from panels, you should use overvoltage/surge protection against ground together with fuses before FV regulator.
Working on drafting drawings for installs makes you a engineer, repairing it in the field due to mother nature makes you a blue collar maintenance man.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 And taking the equipment back to your shop and fixing the engineering oversights/mistakes to make it actually work how it "theoretically should" make you a technician.
Does an inverter feeding a breaker box need the box to be bonded? and a sub panel to that be left unbonded? The breaker box and the wind turbine are the only things I figure need grounding. three wire to a rectifier. If converting to DC does the turbine need a ground still? That was a really good video and thanks for answering many comments. It was informative reading.
Grounding terminal on them don't usually connect in a bonded way so if you want to YES, will it do anything, very unlikely but it's a great confidence builder!
Earth grounds prevent the static buildup that causes lightning in the first place. For most panels, the frame is for bonding to that earth ground to prevent electrical charge buildup, it has nothing to do with the DC system voltage potential.
We will work on that when installing the 30 frameless panels this spring. However, when you do not ground your solar panels you get the same result as you do for not grounding your aluminum framed house windows. Static does not build up in non ferrous materials ( aluminum ) at the same rate as iron/steel, not even close.
I have a Victron charger controller and a solar charger that all connect together with batteries. If I have the building AC system connected to the inverter and that is connected to the ground of the pole, ... what happens to the inverter three wires if shore power cuts off? Is there an issue with any sort of ground loop? The 12V DC is connected and inverted to AC right?
When you connect a inverter, to a existing ground of a building or house then your sharing that ground. If a electrical condition exist that relies on that ground you can end up with a damaged inverter. They place this option on inverters to pass a improper UL and NEC rating. It is ok to do this with generators with a AVR in them, not ever to be done with brushless generators for the same reason. I only run on a GFCI from the inverter, then only use 2 wire on all shared circuits. Many inverters are different, but almost all will not run safe, especially high frequency models, sharing a ground with existing wiring. The best outcome is NOT to share house wiring, install new dedicated unless your buying a pricy quasi grid tie style inverter but using them means a huge cut in ability when grid fails.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Exactly!!! The only reason a UPS can do that; even though it's not really the same as having an inverter tied directly to the main breaker box, is because it has a lot of power conditioning circuitry and is specifically designed to act as a filter/conditioner for the grounded power going into it and to also automatically switch to backup battery power if the main power going into it is lost or over voltage or under voltage. I don't actually use inverters in my solar setups, I use all industrial grade high power with high power factor rack mounted APC UPS units that I have custom programmed for working as both UPS and standalone inverter systems. Knurlgnar24 has a LOT of good information regarding modifying and reprogramming UPS backups to use as standalone and backup systems here on youtube.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Thank you. Of course. Victron has me ground the inverter to a rod outside the shed it is in too. Then when ac shore goes out it internally connects the ground and neutral. … as the batteries, solar controller and batteries are all connected to feed the shed’s ac wiring… the built in transfer switch etc helps.
@@johnbrizendine7716 These replies sure helped me understand more clearly. They also have me connect the negative battery cable to the ground rod by the shed. I don’t have the panel frames connected to ground though they are currently (pun intended) close to it.
Good information John, im sure glad you posted a new video because i was really worried that something might have happened to prevent it, like you getting sick or something going wrong at your place ! I told you that I always look forward to seeing your next video... 😊 Anyhow thanks for the explanation about not grounding solar ! I remember you had another video explaining the same thing awhile back but i guess people don't pay attention like they should..glad to see you're still going strong ..... Best wishes to you and family ! Doug...
There are people who will connect their solar panel frames to ground, some even their DC battery negative. They have all been lied to by sellers of materials related to the bad misinformed act.
Hello Mr. Daniel, can you do a video on this... I'm installing a solar power system in my barn. I connected the inverter to a breaker box for two circuits (120 and 240 volt). This solar breaker box is not connected to the barn grid power subpanel. How do I ground the solar power breaker box? The inverter has a grounding lug, the PV combiner box has a grounding bar in it also. Are the three components mentioned (solar breaker box, PV combiner box, inverter) all grounded together and connected to an earth grounding electrode? I have decided not to ground the 180 watt panels due to the lightning issue. Thanks for your videos!
Using a multi meter, with everything up and operating go and test from those ground lugs to the Positive & Negative on your DC system/Battery +/-. See if you get any circuit power, such as 10+ Volts DC in your results. If you do not, its only chassis grounding and you can using a 10 awg wire connect those items together and earth ground them for a simple static controlling ground. Static can gather in a chassis for a DC system ( touch the outside of your car body get a little ZAP when weather and atmospheric is right ) That only requires 3 feet of stripped copper coiled up in a 18" to 24" deep hole in the ground near your system. As for safety on your solar frames or any roof mounted metals, go at least 50 feet and place a basic lightning rod 10+ feet higher than your solar is and you will cover those needs too.
Thank you, John, for your great video! Question: if you have solar panels on a metal roof and they are in parallel with the DC voltage over 100 volts and you are working on them and a down pour breaks out and you're touching the aluminum frames. Is there a possibility you will get shocked as water passes down your body and rolls off the roof to the earth which is ground? I have a 12 volt off grid system and my panels are all under 50 volts dc and in series, so I am not worried about grounding them. But some guys have systems where the DC volts can be 200 volts plus since they wired their panels in parallel. Thanks, if you have the time to answer.
If your wired wrong and your using the isolated aluminum frames as a conductor your already on the wrong path. However, if your up on a roof when rain is obvious your also starting the day bad. As for the rain and shock hazard the roof being metal far exceeds your conductivity of pure water ( rain water has no magnesium or saline in it to conduct much power under 500 volts ). **The scenario is like saying: *If I jump out a plane without a parachute but the ground is all marshmallows, and the wind is blowing 900 mph how hard will I hit the apple tree that's not there!* In other words, random rarity that if you die, it's a world record worth bragging about in the afterlife!
It is but not fully it is not a conductant but a bad insulator it may take some time untill the potential voltages are the same. Cars are grounded to their own ground (forming Faraday cage).
what if you create some higher antenas to drive any possible lightning to ground... but not on array .. , is it ok ?? 2 or 3 poles around connected to grounding in a fair distance of metal pv frames and even higher
I explain that in the video, to use 3 cheap 21 foot Fence Top Rail to make a triangular mast, then it support 3/4 rebar another 6 or 7 feet further up to become the preferred path.
I have a 35 foot rv with 2400 watts of solar in 4 strings 130 volts . Should I bond solar panels inverter combiner box and battery breaker box to chassis frame HELP!
NO! Not if it ends up on same ground that the utility uses without putting in a inline circuit breaker safety. I have seen back feed destroy many inverters in RV's when they plug in and get chassis feedback. Use this, amzn.to/3ODDsDr for 30 amp, or this amzn.to/3DW7A87 for 50 amp then yes you can use the chassis ground, but I also install a 100 amp diode amzn.to/3DZmDOq to ground so NO back flow. When a AC unit kicks on, a high inductive load happens, and your on utility plug in, the common can get high loaded, it's spike can feed to ground, the chassis, and POOF your inverter or controllers eat it! Diode I use is so a fault in your system passes through, but a fault in something else does not. You take all solar, Inverter, Controller chassis with 10 awg wire to a buss bar, isolated, from it the Diode to frame.
I got luckily a light shock from an inverter due to a lightning strike in close vacancy of the house. Definitely ground the metal inverter, or take out a life insurance policy....
Why would you get a shock from a isolated inverter unless you had its common running in the houses wiring, and the house has bonded common and ground. A inverter can not "receive" a lightning strike in any way unless your incorrectly using it. It is like saying your unplugged TV started to play 1960's sitcoms!
No, but I probably should do one. It's smarter to divert a possible lightning strike instead of attempting to manage one and that should be goal 1 for everyone.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Funny, I'm building a greenhouse with top rail right now. I'm picturing it with a ground rod attached from the peak. My aluminum sailboat mast with a pipe and my wind turbine are making me nervous now.
According to EG4, they recommend a ground rod on the panels because their inverters put out an AC voltage on the PV lines. Seems sketch but perhaps something to consider.
According to metallurgy, science, math and physics they are lying! Placing a ground rod on your panels, that are as electrically isolated as your car windshield, means their product is dangerous and they are looking for YOU to be to blame for damage or lack of safety of their product for "not doing it exactly right" no matter how you follow their plan because once you involve ( as a insurer will tell you ) Mother Nature, the earth, then the company is immune to claims.
A grounding rod at the panels, or from the panels back to the main ground off the main service panel? The later is correct. You should never have the panels grounded separately from the main service panel grounding rod(s).
@@ssoffshore5111 yeah I completely agree. I ended up grounding off of an outlet I had nearby that was connected to the main service and that took care of my problem.
As a metal detectorist, I can at least say, when we find anything thats been in the ground for a long period of time, it will decay, that decay actually enlarges the signal. ONE QUESTION, how do you get a earth neutral bond on a off grid system without a ground??? you said to let your inverters float!!!! but they need a earth neutral bond, that is sometimes already done for you inside the inverter, other times you have to do it yourself, either way, the inverter is not floating.
Earth Neutral is a defined function of Grid Power, a part of its actual circuit. You do not create a circuit using the ground with Off grid power. Floating is the common and line ( hot) in a isolated use not a ground/common bonded like in a utility system. People can't get it into their heads that Utility power is mechanically created, nothing to do with inverters that create their output from synthesized electronic only methods. A comparison. Utility power ( mechanical over rotation over magnetic generators ) call it NON GMO Corn. Inverters, Switching and boosting from DC voltage using self contained conversion, Call it Franken food. With Corn you need the earth to plant it in, with franken food you need a clean soil free laboratory! Connecting to a ground with a inverter will damage the inverters, it will stop or damage your induced short detection safety system in that inverter so may makers knowing "people do not understand the output is NOT utility" often make a burn trace on the board to vaporize when a bonded system is connected to. A industry secret but a must have ability.
@@Urge38 think about if you have ever used a generator to power your home appliances (like refrigerator or cheat freezer during a power outage, or using one on a jobsite for running your saws and air compressors and such. That system is AC, just like whats coming out of your inverter, correct? Most smaller and even midsized generator aren't bonded to earth ground, because they utilize the same thing John is referring to here, a floating neutral. It seeks a path back to its OWN source to complete the circuit, NOT a path to earth.
I earth grounded my solar pane frames because you want to give the lightning bolt the shortest path to earth, otherwise it may run on your dc wires and reach your inverter where it will damage it
If lightning hits your panels there is nothing to stop it's effect on modern electronics. Nothing. The only solution is diversion like they use in massive arrays. Sacrificial sections or attraction mast are used. Grounding your panel frames only assist the lightning to find them. Does not stop the static energizing all of it.
It has something to do with insulating the whole object from ground potential. So it might work for Faraday cage type of installation like caravans. But even for those installation you should ground everything (e.g.regulator) to the common ground of the insulated object to avoid potential differences. So the video is partly true, but the explanation is rather confusing.
$$$$. Nothing explains why you would have to ground the frames on a solar panel, but not a Aluminum Skylight! If you let the panel float electrically like you do the skylight you get no path to ground to attract lightning. In fact, Pella Windows tells its builders this exact fact.
I have a 1500 watt inverter if it is connected to my batteries directly no ground I connect my phone to it, it goes nuts opening things without touching it but if I ground my inverter to my negative terminal battery it stops but it seems like the battery goes dead faster so could I ground my inverter to the frame of my trailer will that stop it or do I have a faulty inverter i'm asking because I never could get a straight answer from the internet lol
Make sure the inverter or anything to do with it is touching the trailer frame or ground is being shared anywhere on the trailer first. If it is doing this to your phone it is due to something touching or connected that is giving some sine wave effect to your USB ports. By grounding it to the battery your shunting it and yes using some juice to do it. So its related to the inverter and how its wired to AC outlets or sitting on metal frames or similar actions. Phone touch screens react to open ground in the screen layers to your touch, if your inverter is sending it a few odd hertz of sine wave it can behave wild.
It may be pointed out the following, for US-users: 1. Two-wire DC systems between 60-300 V are required to be grounded (i.e. to ground one current-carrying wire, usually the negative) [sec. 250.162(A) of the 2020 NEC]. 3. PV system grounding is not required but is allowed [sec. 690.41(A)(1) and 690.41(A)(4)]. In other words, it’s optional to ground the negative or positive wires of a PV array. 4. PV equipment grounding is required [sec. 690.43]. In other words, the electrician must ground the metal frames of the PV modules (solar panels). 5. The NEC really just requires to connect an EGC to the exposed metal parts of the PV system, not to install a new grounding electrode system. But installing a new grounding electrode system and connecting it to the PV equipment is allowed and optional. 6. In telecom systems, all 48-V systems have the positive wire grounded.
As explained in the video, this is for DC non commercial systems and home power use. Mine is 12 to 36 volt, many I have installed are 140 to 300 volt and require a arrestor and some structural grounding by code but not the panels frames. All must be fused, all are fused, but no DC circuit can share a ground with a AC system. We installed NiCad in many Telecom systems, mostly Sprint, some T-mobile. No grounding on the 56 volt modules was ever done, just the battery case and shunts had a circuit breaker to ground. All the solar used on those were 90 volt and frameless with no ground on them but the cables were in metal conduit that was grounded.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Section 690 applies to all PV arrays, it’s not limited to commercial ones. So even the metal frames of residential PV arrays must be grounded.
@@altuber99_athlete That only applies to commercially installed, not home owner installed to be used with Grid Connecting hardware. And not even in every state. There is zero regulations on owner installed that is not to be connected to the grid unless the county/city provides a code requirement. In Texas, that's only in 16 counties of the 254 counties we have. And for DC systems 36 volt and less, that is only applied to in 18 counties of the 254 counties. For 48 volt and higher its in 83 of the 254 counties. 2014 NEC Article 690 and all alterations does not include by mandate: Home Owner, Mobile, Non Domicile, Recreational, Farm, Non Occupied structures, and Remote Rural sites. 690 is procedures and guidelines ( if adopted by your state or municipality ) for Licensed Electricians or Service Techs to follow during install and service of such systems. Continually trying to read into it a Boogie Man to play games with is not realistic. enkonn-solar.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Article-690-Photovoltaic-PV-System.pdf
@@altuber99_athlete Spend some time telling this guy your findings. He's teaching it, He needs straightened out th-cam.com/video/nKWf7XTg-wg/w-d-xo.html
I saw earlier that your discussion board said that LiTime's 12V 100Ah mini battery would be evaluated? Why haven't we sent the video yet? I want to buy it, but I want to see your comments on this product!
Still doing a long term 2 month test on them. They have Pouch Cells in them, Rumor has it, Pouch Cells like those in Cell Phones deteriorate faster no matter the chemistry in them. ( samsung engineers warning 2020 on LiFePO4 Pouch/leaf Cell use) Something to do with the effect of stretch during folding of the materials inside. So I got them, the company wants me NOW NOW NOW to show them since what I paid was less than list price and upon agreement I would do a video on them, but I will not just do a video saying WOW THESE ROCK if they may SUCK! *I will leave the Show and Tell videos for sales up to Professional Promoters with fancy cars, deep pockets and high paid channels who tongue swab the rears of Google.
Some systems the inverters backfeed ac. Im dealing with this currently on an eg4 off grid system. 140v ac from panel frame to ground. Its in a steel roof so the entire roof is hot. Roof needs grounded for safety
*Roof needs grounded for safety* ( missing WHY you have power into your roof and panel frames!!!!!! ) Wanna stop that connection? Remove the inverter from the earth ground, you stop wild AC from being shared in a DC system that is connected to earth in the same location. Treat a inverter and solar controllers *As NOT BEING A UTILITY COMPANIES 3600 rpm generating earth circuit conducive power system,* and Voila! everything fixed!
I'm not here to diss you. You, as a man and a father just recently gained my respect. 😊 But... you do seem to be a little confused in regard to electricity and electronics. I will not start blabbing about my experience but: *Grounding* in any electrical circuit is a protection feature. In AC systems it can also properly protect us from electrocution. In DC systems, grounding protects the electronic components and protects us too from loosing cash, housing, life and limbs. There are three main big dangers in solar power systems that can be reduced with propper grounding: Electrostatic buildup - your panels and cables mihht be high-up somewhere and if they float (electrically) in regard to the ground, they can acumulate really big electrostatic charges. These can really damage electronics even if it can't pose a (direct) life or health issue. Faults and EMI/RFI - now these won't work in impropper instalations but, in general, poropper grounding and propper overload protection systems can prevent electrocution, electrical fires and radio interference. Induced surge currents from lighthning strikes - now, if your system is struck by lightning you're screwed, period. But if the strike is not direct, dangerous currents are still induced in your system. The later can be adressed by propper grounding and propper protectiin circuits. The ground is a _third_ conductor in any circuit. It is the conductor we humans are in contact with. It is regarded as a neutral refference and usefull in fault detection and mitigation. As anything else on this particular planet, impropper grounding can do more harm than good. Stuff that is high-up should be grounded or have pathways to grpund for surges. Stuff that can leak currents on the outside sould be grounded.
Not confused one bit, but if grounding solar panel frames is important to you, do it. Grounding unpowered things that are on everything will need a few trillion tons of copper. Argument being equal, unless its to be cherry picked to eliminate inconvenient facts. See you at the aluminum skylight grounding party.
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@@JOHNDANIEL1 iron is good enough for putting those electrostatic buildups to rest ;) You reminded me tgat a local hardware shop used to sell copper plate, cables and rods for grounding and I found out after they sold it all and never stocked back again because it sat in shop gor years Edit: and I was writing specifically about electric/electronic stuff not skylights but I'd ground that too. Let me tell you about a personal experience I had a month ago. I lost $5 worth of equipment but that is not the point. My pv system at my new home is currently under construction. Nothing fancy or big, just 1.2kw of pv on the roof. The grounding and suppressors are still work in progress and I forgot to disconnect the array when I left for a while. There was a storm, not much but with some lightning in the area. The house was disconnected from mains, the charger was disconnected from the battery but still plugged in the solar array. One digital voltage/current monitor was fried. Nothing else but if the esd/surge protection box would've been grounded (and populated with the appropriate IGDs :)) ) nothing would've happened. Stay safe. The costs of grounding and protections are no match for the costs of property, health or life.
@ So far, and thats just due to medical center records deaths from any form of DC voltage is responsible for 108 deaths since 1980, nearly all are misuse of a welder. AC voltage is responsible for 331,800 deaths since 1978. When a solar and controller event happens, 99% of the time it is that the controller was earth grounded, using the chassis post or shared a ground with the structures utility rated ground circuit. Any if not all ground rods produce a eddy current to above ground objects, and can in storms release a discharge voltage. They are for AC voltage, not DC. ep2000.com/understanding-neutral-ground-grounding-bonding/ and the facts about DC voltage can be easily summed up by the following www.history.com/news/what-was-the-war-of-the-currents Your frames on your solar panel are like your frames on your windows, skylights, metal flashing on a shingled roof. In fact, the National Roofing Contractors Association recommends NOT to deliberately ground metal objects on your roof to deter corrosion and lightning opportunity. Lightning arrestors, EMP devices and grounding non in circuit solar panel frames is snake oil and only increases your likely damage.
Okay, I think a lightbulb just illuminated in my brain. A few years back, when our house was being built, I decided to make it 100% off grid instead of paying 30+k for the local power company to bring power to our land in Southern UT. I built the solar array and installed the panels as well as the inverters, etc. I let a friend who's was an electrical engineer in Germany help me. I'm using two 5k grow watt inverters that are supposed to operate in together to give me 10k of inverting power, but they will only work properly when the solar is NOT turned on and running through the inverters. If I hook up the current sharing cables and the other parallel cables, just using my battery bank, (6 100ah lithium batteries), everything works great, but as soon as I turn on the solar, I get an over current error or something like that. No one at Signature Solar could figure it out so all I've been doing is running on one inverter and using the other inverter as a battery charger, which is such a waste. It's been running fine so I haven't messed with it since I resolved to use it as stated but now that I've watched your video, I'm inspired to disconnect all the grounds and see what happens. If that fixes my problem I'll be buying you all a pot of coffee.
Idk why people trying to discredit your info but you clearly know and understand alot in this field....its like you actually cracked the code something alot of manufacturers wouldnt like most of these guys that are against your argument could be manufacturers themselves wanting many consumers to be inviting lightning into there systems instead of directing it elsewhere that was the main take away from the video but these ppl keep missing the 👉 point
I had one ungrounded array and three other arrays that were grounded and guess which ones the lightning bolt hit last june? The one that was ungrounded of course!
That's psychotic. I'd buy lots of lottery tickets if I was you. A one in a 5 billion happened to you already. Solar panels with no attraction to lightning gets hit when next to it the ones screaming *THROUGH ME THROUGH ME* we are the shortest route, gets ignored. LOL!
@@JOHNDANIEL1 I worked in the broadcast industry years ago and over my long career, I witnessed lightning strike the ground, some 8 feet from a 250' radio tower. Totally changed my belief system! My wife caught the event with her phone camera! th-cam.com/video/e1Tx9ABR4hE/w-d-xo.html
I didn't see the lightning hit the panels, looks like maybe behind them. Ungrounded would not make it attract the strike. Like I said, buy some lottery tickets! Adding a ground or being grounded attracts lightning to that easier more conductive source to get to the ground. I worked in the telecom industry for some years and the towers got hit a lot, the internal components and equipment was all floating as well as the building it was in to prevent lightning using it as a path. More likely something in the ground attracted that lightning, not those panels or you'd seen some immediate damage. I have seen lightning strike next to a water tower but that was the visible light, the strike went though the tower frying 4 large solenoid valves in it. The light energy made no marks on the ground but heavy scoring was on the intermediate cross members 30 feet up.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 It definitely hit the 3rd or 4th top panel and in the very next frame, you can see fire and sparks jumping from panel to panel along the entire left half of the array. Lightning is attracted by a potential difference path. Usually a sharp edge is a good attractor. That's why on tops of radio towers we used to install dissipators that look like a metal tree like thing with lots of spikes. The purpose of grounding panels is to provide a path to ground, not through your equipment to ground. All building electrical systems have a ground, so there's no way to float the electrical system. The best approach is to shunt it at the source.
I’m not an Electrition but I understand DC don’t need to be grounded but when you have solar panels you turn DC into AC so the AC need to be grounded am I wrong about that
Yep, wrong about that. The Solar panel is a device that only makes DC voltage. A Solar Controller is a device that takes that "wattage" and converts it to DC Charging to place the results into a storage battery system. From that storage battery you get again, DC voltage until you send that to a Inverter, which is a device that synthetically makes a alternating current/voltage to use on AC devices. Since a Inverter is not a power generation system ( utility ) it is making the conversion from DC to AC power with some form of buck boosting and switches to create a sine wave, usually Mosfets and transformers. That process only creates 2 fields. Some are both synthesized as both hot + Line 1, hot - line 2 and some from pure sinusoidal wave of ZERO on Hertz. NONE are using a ground to create the output. The controller circuit in a inverter is used as the safety system, it actually can not fail either, so it is safer than a actual "earth Ground" since it does not require numerous connections to function. It works as follows. *Billy grabbed the output of a inverter, he was SHOCKED to see it immediately shut off. He heard from the brilliant code talkers that it would kill him. Then Billy learned a Inverter is sensitive to "wave variation" and will fault so fast that it's considered the safest power system to use in Ambulances and Hospital equipment since only 1.5% wave variation will fault it to stop working verses up to 15% in a Utility Grid non GFCI systems with double bonded circuits.* The Ground post on a inverter do not actually do anything but chassis grounding, however you do not have voltage in the chassis, TILL YOU GROUND IT!!!
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Grounding and null pole (blue conductor wire of AC wiring) are not the same! Old wiring schemes used only 2-wire AC which one was null conductor and null pole which was grounded, but only in the local end (house wiring after 3phase division). Modern AC wiring uses Power, Null and Earth protective wire (yellow/green) which are never connected except where it begins - in residual and overcurrent switch device (best solution for higher safety). Same as modern inverters use the 3-wire output which reacts to residual current and will shut down once live wire output is tampered (except the cheap ones). Residual protection works due to Earth/protective grounding! I would say that the whole explanation is quite a misconception. You are true in some points in the video but not here.
I am getting 35 volts on my solar panel frames but only when my inverter is connected. How is that possible and how do i correct it? My 1st thought was to ground it.
Have you grounded your inverter or connected its output to the house/structures wiring? If so, your common in the inverter and the eventual path made will lead to ground and you will get that kind of effect.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 the inverter is grounded and it's not connected to any house wiring. I did some investigating and found I was getting 140 volts from an inductive effect from unused wires packed in the conduit so I'm looking in to that. Still can't beleave I got a shock from a completely unconnected at both ends ground wire.
@@Ranch321 People for some reason ground their inverters to Earth ground that is on or near a system used for Utility power. Even being close to those systems can cause voltage leakage. The inverters output is wild AC, common is a created format, not a result or earthing like a utility has to do. So you have a active phase from the inverter getting into the ground or common, or even earthing, I prove this to so many people it's not even funny but they insist some genius says they have to do it. In reality, a inverter or generator is a stand alone power creation and has to be 100% treated as one. NO sharing of wiring without 100% dedicated transfer equipment in the link.
@@Ranch321 If you have 1 single volt with enough non atmospheric amperage to shock you on your solar panel frames, you caused it to exist, it simply can not exist due to the fact the frame is metal in any way. The aluminum frame is NOT in the circuit of your DC voltage, the earth or your inverter without you making a connection to it. It is 100% isolated, just like your car, fence, lawn mower is until you introduce a circuit into it from a source.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 so after grounding the unused wires in the conduit the voltage seems to have all but disappeared so I think it was feed back from an inductive load generated by the proximity of the unconnected wires in the conduit. Also the grounding rods im using are 600 + feet from the utility grounding.
oxidized metal is not a good conductor of electricity: Oxidation When a metal's surface is exposed to oxygen, it reacts with the oxygen molecules to form metal oxides. These oxides can make the surface more resistant, which decreases the metal's electrical conductivity
Ahem.. NOT creating... COMPLETING a circuit. Thanx for making this point about grounding. Remember back in the 60's and 70's when there was a grounding strap underneath the cars..? hehe.. they were surely smoking funny things.
Yes I remember them! Some even used short lengths of chain! Their purpose was to prevent static build up ...... resistance through tarmac is Not good ;o) ..... which is what allows you to build up the static in the first place!
Failing health and resulting failing finances are forcing me into full time RV boondocking, and of course everything will be DIY. I will be building batteries using EVE LF280K cells, covering the roof of the trailer in solar panels in parallel to diminish shading issues, and possibly next year building a wind turbine to add to the trailer. My college electronics is 46 years rusty, so I'm wondering if you are able to some mentoring? My current thoughts are to build 4, 12 volt batteries in parallel (total 1120 amphours)., feeding a busbar, feeding a 4000 watt inverter. In case the trailer is in partial shade, I'm planning some portable panels as well. To top up the LIFePO4 batteries while driving it sounds like I'll need a DC to DC charger. It seems I may need multiple solar/wind controllers. I realize those are a lot of topics, but any thoughts you can throw my way would be appreciated. Thanks for reading my lengthy chat.
I would if you want to save $50 easy, go to Sun Gold right now, they are best thing going shrsl.com/42bmr If you get 18 panels, you can run 6 at a time on 3 of the HQST 40 amp controllers ( amzn.to/41wEohx ) running them 2x2x2 like a 24 volt set up, 44 volt, that will make your outcome perfect for your 12 volt RV system on those controllers. I say to use the HAT metal for mounting them, but work with what you have. The best battery is a pair of the TIME USB 220 shrsl.com/42bna so when you can afford it you can add one more, or end up with 4 total which will make your plans complete. But 2 will run a 3200 watt SWI power inverter to run a good sized AC unit, you would need 3 or 4 of them to run a AC unit, Microwave, TV, Refrigerator and more on a pair of inverters or a 4000 watt Sun Gold. I Prefer the Sungold 4k for RV use.
They sold you the panel, now they want $20 more each for grounding parts? Scam? Anyhow, Support Kieras plans at www.buymeacoffee.com/JOHNDANIEL or ko-fi.com/john4kiera & see the *JD DESIGNED AFFORDABLE SURVIVAL OFF GRID KIT list* amzn.to/42cdjBX
Hi John
Just wondering if you got that battery situation figured out yet, or did you change your mind ?
Thanks
Douglas Gordon
@@dagordon1150 Yes. I have to bring them up to post office to get them priced. May have to take them to Fed Ex, What ever is cheapest to you. Either way, they are yours. I had to spend a week off everything to deal with a close friends losses. But getting back on track.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Tat´s sad... my condolences
and all good !
Thanks! That's for Kira. I want to see more of her.
The reason for "bonding" non current carrying metallic components to "ground" is to equalize the electrical potential to ground in the event of a short circuit inside the equipment. If you come in contact with those now energized components, you could die. This could save your life. As someone who has nearly died from an electrocution due to a missing bond to the ground, I am fanatic for proper grounding and bonding.
I do agree with you relating to rebar for a ground rod. I would refer you to your local electrical code to determine if rebar and what diameter is accepted in your locality.
Lightning will destroy almost anything. There is no grounding system that is truly effective against a direct lightning strike. Directing lightning away from your solar panels, as you described, is a valid point.
BTW: the metal on my panels/wind turbines and neutral conductors have been bonded to ground rods for over 20 years. There are no failures yet due to lightning, even though there has been lightning in the area multiple times. I just opened the box, so I'll probably get hit next week! 16:57
People who find voltage coming from their solar panel frames are the folks who worry me 😂. They need to ask why one isolated piece of aluminum (solar panel frames) makes its own power, but another one of identical build (aluminum window frame) don't. And funny thing is when I removed all the ground wires it disappeared.
People who put a array up far from their homes ground rod and don't connect the solar ground to their home also seem to have no transient voltage from their panel frames. Hmmm.
Did getting electrocuted hurt?
Obviously this guy doesn't live in Florida, If you don't ground it all equipment will be destroyed after lightning strike.
Thanks!
Thank you!
You are correct, The DC circuit (+ and - ) are unbonded and doesn't require a 4:32 ground BUT You most definitely want your panels bonded together and all bonded to ground for safety reasons. Lightning needs a circuit back to the ground. If your panels are not bonded to ground and lightning strikes it will find a way back to ground through your dc wiring most likely and is a substantially greater hazard for the occupants inside. Grounding your panels on your house will protect you inside as it creates a faraday cage of sorts around your house.
yes
you know i came to find out if i had to ground my x4 260w panels, but im watching and in ahhh the father daughter relationship, im a father of a 15 year old and she hardly talk to me:( i was watching and actually forgot about why i was here. God bless you both.
I never let Kiera get on junk filled Cell phones, social web sites or have friends who don't respect her future. 50 years ago we would have called that parenting, today they call that being a mean prick! A title I accept with glee!
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Actually, recent research studies support your perspective.
Best line: Never held a screwdriver unless it was to stir orange juice and vodka 🤣
Thanks for finally putting out reasonable advice on this. Foldable ground solar panels never have a ground point so I never understood why so many insist on grounding their panels.
I mounted 12 solar panels on a shipping container. I'm grounding the rack system just because it is higher than the container but was thinking the same about putting something taller close by to attract the lighting. The container is situated between our house and a field. Thanks for the video!
It is good to see you all up and about. I was thinking about the grounding issue during a Texas lightning storm yesterday morning. There are plenty of natural lightning rods growing around me. The spark gap thing sounds like it might be okay. I am not an expert on this so I will just watch and read and try to learn. Thank you.
The absolute best method to protect solar is a lightning rail, installing on metal roofs, or a nearby pole as described preferred circuit for such lightning.
Thanks!
AFAIK, there are 2 different reasons for grounding: (a) for functionality reasons (AC transformer, electrical wire fence, ...) and (b) for safety.
With (a) you connect one of the wires to the ground which acts as an extra conductor, and with (b) you connect metal frame parts to an earthing rod or loop.
With (b) in place, you prevent people from being shocked when touching the metal frame if a damaged DC or AC cable also touches that frame. Without grounding, the electricity goes from the defective cable via the frame through your body to the ground, which can be deadly.
With the frame grounded, the pathway of least resistance is via the ground wire to the ground, so when you touch the frame then, almost no or very little current will go through your body. As well as the situation that the Ground Fault Current Interuptor can detect the dangerous situation and disconnect the electricity, indicating there is a dangerous situation that should be corrected. Or in case of solar panels, the inverter detects that there is an insulation fault that should be looked in to.
PV systems are being grounded for protection of your loved ones, and other people.
I'm no expert, only an apprentice, the experts can correct or agree with me.
Big no shitter on getting hit with 500volts dc when the squirrel nested under a panel and shorted it to my array. Grounding is important for fatal voltage levels. Plus it hurts really bad!
Aluminum panels oxidize creating an oxidize layer and will require over 1000 voltage before that current can jump to your body.
I believe electricity goes in a circuit back to source, so it won't go to the ground for no reason
You must be "educated", which is a no-no, apparently...
You're right except that the DC circuit from your panels is an isolated circuit. There is no potential to earth ground unless you create it by bonding the return (-) to ground first. Shorting the positive wire to the frame will do nothing unless the positive and negative both are shorted. Then something is going to blow, hopefully fuses that you've installed on your panels instead of your panels.
Equipment grounding is absolutely best practice where that potential exists and does include most all AC circuits and non-isolated DC circuits.
wow. That makes so much sense. I always wondered why I can get in my car barefoot in water after washing it and start it up and not get shocked.
HELP! We had a solar system installed in our cabin. The company we bought from says we need it grounded and our electrician says we don’t unless it’s grid tied (it’s not) The instructions say to ground it at the inverter, another electrician told me to ground the breaker box AND the panels.
I know nothing about this other than what I’ve learned in the last week or so and I still have no clue.
The best grounding video I saw. and i went over few dozen of them. Using a regular steel bar make a lot of sense. Thank you for this important information/
So called "copper ground rods" are only copper plated steel. Rebar has more ground contact area on it, has oxidation iron oxide (Fe2O3) which is rust that creates as expanding and shedding feature aids in dispersing a charge. The manufacturers of copper coated rods lobbied to get their product in codes. Problem with copper is once in the ground you get tarnishing and electrically nulling copper oxide which proven in real time reduces its conductivity by up to 40%. If you want to use a rod that is not steel use 15mm yellow brass with a silver coating of 12 mil and it is the absolute best and is what is used at server farms like Fakebook and for huge internet companies. Only $800 each!
The frames and racks of your panels need some ground path for induced voltage from nearby lightning strikes and static electricity. That has nothing to do with the DC power lines going to your inverter. Some folks just bond all the panel frames and racks together and connect them to the system ground which is a path back to the ground rod at your service entrance. I don't like this, especially for ground mounts. I add an auxiliary grounding rod at the ground mounts which creates another problem: A nearby strike will induce a voltage across the resistance between the two ground rods which will cause a destructive and dangerous current in the system ground and neutral. So I run a wire between the two ground rods and bind them together, minimizing the voltage induced between them. Alternately you could connect the frames and racks to the system ground AND an auxiliary ground rod, which will also bind the two rods together, but I don't consider that a super reliable ground, so I run a separate wire. I did a video on the issue, and wrote a blog post to accompany it. Earth grounding is NOT a simple issue, and experts don't agree on what's safe and effective. So I came up with a solution that covers all the bases--I think. th-cam.com/video/PEpsz9Jqnrs/w-d-xo.html
great vid, good humor for morning coffee, thanks kindly from great White North, off grid for 25 years, ungrounded at present, after I got my permit, great thought on the lightning attractor. I shut my batteries off if its close
The thing is your dc wires will then be your shortest path to ground through your inverter and through you who is using some equipment. You should have surge protectors on both the + and - lines on your panels. You then ground your frame so that that is the shorter path to ground. Of course you should include lightning rods at a higher level than your panels *with its own ground rod*
Your right, grounding is not part of a DC circuit. But I think you missed a point: earth ground on DC circuits serves a slightly different purpose. It's for your SAFETY. It provides the shortest path for DC current to flow in case of an unbalanced leak (positive/negative only leak, where there is little to no ISC until touched by something that completes the circuit). Without the earth ground, if the circuit has a leak, the current will flow through anything touching the ground, INCLUDING YOU. So yeah, in low voltage it's almost useless, but on an array of 10+ 600W PV panels where the circuit has 400V+, it's a life saver....
I think I've said here and everywhere that exceeding 60vdc should have a fault system. That includes neon alert bulbs from frame to independent ground to active grounding but not residential shared.
Exceeding 60vdc meaning input from the panels? I have circuit breakers on my solar system in my rv. My system is not grounded. My rv is not grounded. I know I’ve asked this question before, but now I’m unsure of what I should do. Can you help?
@@Blackbird-zo1su If your choosing to go as high as 60 volts DC, you need real safety by using at least inline fuses or breakers. I prefer staying under 44 volt, ( pair of 100 watt panels in series is 44 open voltage ) and likely to be felt but not likely to injure. Over that it gains deadly levels fast. You do not need to ground the panel frames, no one has to. But creating a short safety is wise no matter what your voltage is. Best breakers to use are Mathus, you need a box amzn.to/4fgc0Zd And sized breakers that are just higher then your panel amps amzn.to/3SiWDVN
Example - 300 watts solar would be 25 amps in a 12 volt system. Always buy a few extra breakers, and always get a box with at least 1 or 2 more spaces than your solar already uses so you can expand or option other sources.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 thanks, I do have adequate breakers.
But you would need Residual circuit breaker and 3-wire wiring for this to work. There are still 2-wire systems in old houses which only breaks on short circuit and won't protect you from injury if properly grounded or not. Nowadays when the household devices are mainly plastic such events are less frequent unless you are in e.g. bathroom.
Dad you have many solar panels but your windmill is beautiful (very informative video)
I have never ground any solar panels, or inverters, but I always use rebar to ground electrical fences, though! : )
Very smart. If you ever share wiring with a grid designed system your looking for problems. I wired to use my power in dedicated lines, and never lost a solar panel in 16 years.
Great information, and your daughter is a doll.
Grounding trucks always gives you that “jank” feeling 😂
I think you make a good argument regarding attracting lightning to a different ground source other than through your modules and houses grounding system. I.e. erecting a large lightning rod or grounding your houses via an existing perimeter fence as these would make for a safer path to discharge a lighting bolt around a houses property.
With that said, for many homes in the U.S. these methods of handling lightning surges just are not available. Some houses do not have an existing fence they can turn into a lightning attractor/arrestor and building a large lightning rod taller than the house is just not feasible as there often isn’t any yard space.
Although at times it seems the NEC is pedaling new codes to sell additional electrical components and installation, I do not think at its core that it is its purpose. ESPECIALLY with regard to grounding codes the purpose is to continue to make residential electrical circuits safer. In fact, building a large lighting rod or creating a grounding fence as you have suggested would In the end be more expensive to the homeowner(for most houses) than bonding solar modules together as part of a homes lighting protection.
You are correct in saying a circuit does not need a ground to operate, the modules will produce power without a ground. However, the grounding conductor is installed for use in worst case scenarios such as a lightning surge BUT ALSO for shorts within a circuit or static electricity build up. These problems are all best solved via a ground. To divert unwanted current quickly rather than exist as unwanted voltage running across the module’s frames.
You mention that vehicles and tractors are not grounded to earth. Of course they are not, having a constant connection to earth in all motor vehicles across the country is not feasible. However if it was I bet it would be required. Now consider trucks that move hazardous materials, static buildup within the truck due to normal operation can ignite flammable materials and this has been known for many years. Sometimes these trucks DO have a connection to earth via a chain dragged along the ground to dissipate the voltage differential.
Perhaps for off grid systems or systems in dispersed residential settings a better grounding system should be in place than using the house ands its infrastructure(solar modules) to handle lightning surges. But in most cases, congested neighborhoods would be better off with each house able to handle a surge independently. The modules on the roof could be damaged by lightning and if no path to earth is created the surge could burn up the wiring of the solar system causing a fire. The goal is NOT to attract lightning(even if this is an unwanted byproduct). Lightning is an unpredictable energy source and it is best for a house to just be as prepared as it can be.
@@briankober4879 you are talking logic and sure to offend people.
I thought you grounded the panel frame to take care of static electricity?
You two did a great job explaining this. Thank you
🥰
Thank you for the video. After watching your video I did not ground my system. I am having problems with my EG4 inverters. flickering lights, incinsitent power. Tech support asked if I grounded my panels. I told them no. they told me I needed to. I decided to use some leftover pv wire I had and ground my panels to satify that being the issue or not. While installing the grougning I could hear a electrich buzz every time i touched my pannels, I even got a light shock at one point. I pulled out my multimeter and had 140VAC and 1amp on the panel racking and frames. Turns out many all in one inverters do not isolate their PV inputt from AC output and it leaks into the pv lines and gets into the racking somehow? Once grounded the cuurent is no longer in the panles. just wonding your thoughts on this? would appriciate the input. also grounging the array did not solve any of the issues i was having with flickering and what not. thanks
What do you suppose caused totally isolated aluminum frames to be electrified? It's like saying I installed a inverter and solar into my Dodge van, now my Chevy pick up parked near it shocks me every time I touch it. Literally, the same way of thinking!
The voltage you get when touching a ground wire to a panel is from the existing ground wire "supplied common ( bonded circuits)" loop being made, It happens when your panels are mounted on metal racking on metal frames or metal roofs. This does not ever happen to any electrically floating un grounded panels mounted on wood!
Wonder why right! Induced current is looking for a conductor when your playing with it, and find it in reverse by a ground that's connected to a homes existing system of wiring which has a bonded Common(neutral)/Ground design. Technically, your making a jumper, and it makes many things behave odd.
People seem to think a inverters output is identical to a power plants system, it is not. It is a imperfect clone not designed to rely on earth ground for balance. It's not a identical product.
Yet, using a All-In-One inverter charger is not the problem that will make 100% non-electrified aluminum become current carrying items, connecting it to something upstream is what does that.
See how it all behaves when you DO NOT connect and share your inverter to the homes metal, ground, or bonded utility based and still connected to utility, system!
@@JOHNDANIEL1 thank you for the reply I appricieat your input. My panels are mounded on a wood frame i made 2x6 with big 6x6 post. then i put unistrut on top of that. I am off grid and do not have any utility power. when I ran my AC out from the invertter to my home panel i did run a line, neutral, and ground and have my main home circuit breaker ground neutral bonded. Would you still think i should remove the ground from my inverter to my main panel with this type of set up?
@@chasegj Yes, Just do a experiment. Remove the ground line on the inverter or run 2 wire for 120 volt, 3 wire for 240 volt and watch how the whole thing changes.
Consider how you would wire the same system into a old school bus/RV, Grounding is to chassis, not to anything else. NO ground rod, no ground strap related to AC voltage on the panels, but some do a DC ground to chassis due to static from 70 mph air flowing over panels. And no one gets electrocuted, it is safe there, so its same for a home system. RV's do not bond ground and neutral and if they do they tell you to separate it if installing a inverter. The ground on them is often only metal BOX to chassis, not a shared Neutral bar to Chassis.
I prove this all by disconnecting the ground, plugging into a inverter, and then measuring the volts from the ground wire to the ground post on the inverter and getting wild voltage on it anytime it is fed into a bonded power box. This feedback sometime affects your DC negative to your panels.
This discussion is really interesting.
I'm about to install a 360w solar panel backup system into my cabin which is on the grid. I bought a SunGoldPower 12v inverter/charger that will be fed from a regular household 15 amp circuit/outlet. The batteries are charged by the inverter/charger when the grid is up, but by the solar panels when the grid is down. The inverter/charger has a ground to the 200amp service panel through regular 14 awg house wiring. But it also has another grounding lug off its metal case. I was contemplating using that lug to ground my solar panels, but found your video as I do research on grounding. I think I'll do some more research, but this video has me re-thinking what I thought before.
Just realize the design of the power grid, with the earth involved, power created by rotating mass is not in any way the same as the generation/conversion of power from DC current. The "HAIR ON FIRE" panic stricken fear mongers who demand you ground connect all your DC circuits would fire you in 1 second if you drove a ground rod through the floor of their pick up to "ground it" since it has a AC alternator and DC circuits.
Solar for safety is fused. All DC should be fused. But be very careful back flowing your inverter through some residential wiring since it can be bonded common with neutral (ground direct) and may fry your inverters or introduce stray voltage in your existing ground circuits.
Thank you for the quick reply. I do know that the main panel they just installed is bonded common to neutral at the outside box. The power is then distributed inside to a 200amp service panel which (of course) is not bonded ground to neutral. It's one of those circuits that feeds my living room outlet where the SunGoldPower inverter/charger will be plugged in. Keep up the good work, it's appreciated by us still "in school". @@JOHNDANIEL1
@@avlisk When we install the common 240 volt 6000 watt Sun Gold into a space like your doing, we use this transfer switch amzn.to/3T9ItYr system. If you use a smaller 120 volt inverter with nothing over 3000 watt you can use this single sided model amzn.to/3GrP7ld
If you are looking for a truly awesome lightning repelling/diverting system, look up Nikola Tesla's lightning rod/repeller. It looks almost like an umbrella, but is designed to perform very similar to how you describe setting up the solar panels on metal roofing. Really interesting stuff.
Another thing that most people fail to grasp is that when lightning strikes the ground, the ground itself becomes energized and having something grounded to the spot that is energized can cause something that is sometimes known as "ground source lightning" and can also cause those grounded objects to become energized and be much MUCH more dangerous than an ungrounded metal object.
The main reason I am so involved with grounding/ground isolating stuff is my expensive radio equipment requires a good ground for proper signal propagation, but improper grounding can cause ground loops and lightning and even electric discharge damage by those same electromagnetic waves being transmitted and received. I learned a long time ago that there is a LOT of bad information out there regarding grounding.
Another thing people don't realize is that electricity does not just take the path of less resistance, it is actually really complex. See Ohm's law to truly understand how electrical energy will take all paths to ground and divide equally along those paths according to the resistance and then faraday's laws to see how adding inductance and capacitance can have a major impact on it.
The simple subject of grounding is so insanely complex that most electricians and electrical engineers don't fully understand it, there is just so much nuance that goes into it.
I base my study and results on 2 things, Sir Benny Franklin and Faraday's laws. Faraday using a all copper roof on a cabin next to a all wood shingle roof was trying to prove how copper was dangerous, He was a pissy man. He learned the opposite. He learned that electrochemistry was not that simple, the lightning on the project in north France on the coast, right in the marsh, a storm hot spot, it struck the carbon loaded chimney of the wooden house 3 times. Never touched the copper house or its chimney right next to it. Conclusion by Vander Hoff the resident, the copper make the house protected. Private notes to his parish.
In reality it made the load of the ground sourcing much more spread out. In reality, lightning DID strike both. But the concentration of energy diffusing outward was spread out on the all copper, leaving no real damage. But the energy was so focused on the wood framed houses chimney it blew the top off it and the cast iron frame from Ingles ship wrights, which both homes had, down below warped.
Little is known of his off Britain experiments done by fellows, but his findings on electrolysis caused by as he put it, the silent energy, showed how the later designs of the Faraday cage came about.
Note to be accurate, I am prejudiced toward his Savant Qualities, I am kin to Sarah Barnard, she was married to Michael Faraday, her grand father is direct blood line from my Germanic/Lithuanian roots.
Grid tied solar should always be grounded, your inverter can fail and modern inverters couple to the grid transformerless.
Lightning is not an issue, static buildup on the panels is.
Static voltage can build up on the frames and arc to the DC circuit.
Yeah, we got that same static problem with our van, and aluminum house windows. Working on it.
Good point. Their knowledge of grounding is very limited.
That’s great but the code makes you ground the rails that the solar panel frame is attached too .
Yes, and we ordered a few million feet of wire to stay in code on our RV as we haul it.
Great video. Quick question on inverters. I have a standalone inverter with an isolated transformer in it for ac 120v output. Should I bond neutral to ground or leave it floating. On the Victron Energy 1200va it has an internal jumper to select between the two. Thanks!
You need to have a neutral to ground bond for your circuit breakers to trip in a fault (hot wire touching metal that it shouldn't touch). You should only make the bond in one location. Bonding in more than one location is also dangerous. Typically the bonding happens at the breaker panel. The easiest way to bond at the main panel is to put the neutral and ground wires on the same bus. If they are separated in the panel then look for a bonding jumper or screw that connects them. If there isn't bonding at the panel then the inverter could be bonded. Many inverters and generators aren't internally bonded to prevent the mistake of creating two bonds.
Hello John, i watched this video and read the interesting comments. I remembered watching a video where the people had done an off grid instal (i think it was 7000 watts of panels). (i just wrote on their comments for them to watch this video- especially with diversion aspect). i just rewatched it, yes they grounded their panels through the controllers from what i could see (victron controller with earth). They had a lightning strike near the panels and it fried the controllers and inverter. They are now using surge protectors. The reason for this is that they mention that fuses simply dont react fast enough when massive lightning strikes pops in the voltage. they have also added further ground rods (copper). They are in a desert type area and they were told by solar company that long runs of the wiring (over 100 feet) are an attractant to lightning. Therefore more grounding to offset and make a channel for the lightning. The surge protection makes sense to me in the sense of topping massive voltage influx for whatever reason. However, i would be interested in your opinion on the "long " runs of wire scenario, being an attractant. Here is the story on their channel: th-cam.com/video/7DvIjAvMge0/w-d-xo.html (channel is Tiny Shiny home). Many thanks
I've had a 100w solar panel since '13, initially just an experiment in learning about solar, couple yrs ago moves it to front yd to supply pwr to charge controller for 33ah lead acid battery to power 12v flood light for my flagpole at night, just got 'nuther pair of 100w panels so can power electric chicken fence to keep predators from killing them all, again. My orig panel has never been grounded in either location.
Some inverter companies even say NOT to ground either leg of the DC output. Panels on a metal rack become grounded via the frame/structure of the rack. It may almost impossible to keep the metal frames isolated.
Exactly like that!
John, I’m sorry but you’re completely wrong on some electrical fundamentals.
The ground is not part of an AC electrical circuit. The power plant generators do not need the ground to create electricity. An electrical circuit functions just fine without a ground, which is the way homes used to be wired back in the day.
Electricity does not inherently want to go to ground, it always wants to return to its source. When it leaves the generator it must return to it.
There are only two main reasons distribution systems are grounded: lightning and being able to clear faults and stabilize voltage in the event of faults.
Lightning is derived from the earth and tries to find the easiest path back to it. Grounding transformers, points along poles, running lightning wires, and having rods at your home’s service entrance in theory helps with that.
If a fault like a short occurs where a line goes down on the ground, grounding of the system can help to trip the substation breakers, but it mainly helps to keep the line to ground voltages from rising too high, which is a problem with faults in an ungrounded system.
Also, a residential transformer is single phase, split into two hots and a neutral. The common is not derived from the ground, it is a neutral wire tapped from the center of the transformer winding and gives half the voltage compared to the two hot wires. That neutral is then grounded for the above reasons.
You might see a small amount of current constantly running on the ground of your house, but this is not electricity “going to ground.” Because distribution systems have many points of neutral grounding, it creates a parallel path for current to return to its source. So electricity is returning to the source through the earth. Check out SWER
You must be a distribution utility worker like I was. All the nearly 12,000 miles of cables we ran from 300+ massive wind turbines should not work now.
However, I'd suggest you prove your point by cutting your/the ground wire ( neutral/common bond ) from your electrical box. The one to the ground rod and the one to the ground strap on the power pole that gives your center return. When your power on all your 120 volt outlets basically stops, then revisit your opinion on it. Center tap removed, the floating neutral on the pole wire actually is *NOT from the power plant,* it is from the ground at/after distribution sub stations, and it is no longer sufficient and balanced. Ground does not come from the power plant, I never said it does, you imagined that. 75 to 130K VAC/4 does. When it hits the substations you get a optioned rural 7200 or a industrial heavy/urban 9800 volts. *delivered from ONE WIRE, cycling @60 hertz, on one wire.* {many poles have 1,2 and even 3 HOT wires, not all are used on each transformer unless multiple phases are needed such as 277 or higher}
At the Transformer that ONE energized wire and on then the local line you have is a mains tag drop, a massive GROUND EARTH Wire made ( normal neighborhood as a example) of 5 or 7 strands of 6 awg buried 9+ feet deep coiled 7 to 10 times or full underground distru style 1-5/8 rod 12 foot driven then it connects to and becomes the neutral common/neutral ground. Each following pole going away from the incoming hot circuit switch or break will have a typically bare 6 awg ground that is at the bottom of the pole. Lots of crack heads and Leftist mental patients have proven that Ground Matters as they cut the copper to steal it. Note the word GROUND = Earth.
The transformer can still send you 240 volts L1 & L2 but your center tap common gone ( the ground you say does not matter ) will not give you nothing else. And 90% of items ( stoves, furnaces, AC units ) all use 120 volt side in their 240 volt input to run operations like relays, clocks, timers, and lights )
DO the test! Seriously. No shit, Do it. Remove the ground/neutral that as you say IS NOT PART OF IT, Watch the results, keep a fire extinguisher handy.
science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/power7.htm
BTW - Lightning does not "come from the ground" as in it arches up to the sky, stop watching Bill Nye the Science liar. Lightning ( the visual light is caused, not created due to the grounding effect) When you see lightning travel horizontally where is the start to end origin?? Not ground. It is shorted to or by the ground, not actually "from the ground" as they claim. ( Tesla vs Edison ) but gains momentum of energy due to ground.
@ Just because that website is online does not make it accurate. They are omitting key facts. Transformer secondaries have always been grounded, that doesn’t mean they need the ground to function. The grounding is for the purposes I already talked about. What you and the website are really talking about is SWER, where there is one hot line and the ground is the return. That is not used anywhere but extremely rural areas. But again, the electricity is not going to ground, it is going THROUGH the ground back to the source, ie generator.
And I never said the neutral is derived from the power plant. You imagined it. I said it is derived from center tapping the winding of the pole transformer. And I said residential is single phase because it is, like you said, a single high voltage line from the 3 phases connected to the main line neutral for its complete circuit on the primary side. The substation transformer is a three phase, 4 wire distribution, with like you said a higher line to line voltage and a lower line to neutral voltage that they use for single phase residential distributions. Unless you’re in my area where the predominant distribution is ungrounded delta and all the single phase poles are connected line to line. We are not a multi grounded neutral distribution in my area.
MGN gives you some amount of constantly circulating ground current because so many points of the neutral are grounded that the ground becomes a parallel path. Still, that does not mean the earth is a requirement for a transformer with a neutral to function. As long as your neutral is intact and and not corroded, you can cut your grounds to them and they will work fine. Only current imbalance travels back on the neutral anyway. A multi wire branch circuit with balanced current on the hots equals 0 returning on the neutral.
And again, back in the day homes were 2 wire with no ground and they worked fine. Grounding helps to stabilize voltage in a fault and to clear faults.
As far as lightning, regardless of where it really comes from, it still goes to ground, or the ground is certainly part of the actual “circuit”
@@samgillis6224 Just get back with me after you remove the un-necessary ground on your home and let me know the details.
@ if you cut the transformer neutral then yeah your 120v loads will go crazy. Cut the ground connection to that neutral and nothing will happen in a properly functioning system
Thanks John i need to know this very valuable information, saludos from MEXICO amigo
But does it hurt to ground the aluminum frame of the solar panels? It won't protect from lightning damage, indeed will make the panels a "lightning rod", but will protect personnel from any potential buildup, either static or for feedback thru the cells from the inverter. Obviously, you can't ground panel frames on an RV, but doesn't mean a home installation isn't better if frames are grounded.
Ground if you feel its for you. But just know that about 99% of those who say they have voltage in their panel frames got it from sharing a single homes ground rod with the common neutral/structural ground bonded 120/240 utility panels, inverters ground lug, solar controllers ground lug and solar panels. So if you do ground them, DO NOT connect that circuit to the home or inverters system, ground them separately at least 30 feet away from any existing ground rod. They do collect atmospheric static in rare conditions but so does you car pop you with a static jolt from time to time.
If your frames are not earth grounded, a lightening strike will seek the easiest path to ground; through your panel circuits and through your inverter; blowing up some very expensive equipment!
You ground (bond) your frames to protect that expensive equipment from the lightening surge; providing a low resistance path to ground.
If the concern is the liklihood of a lightening strike to your panels, mount a 6 lightening rod near the panels; provide the lightening an easier path to ground than your panels.
The DC feeding from your panels does not require a ground but most split-phase inverters do. Static charges that build up in normal operation must be drained off or risk destroying the controller electronics.
The ground rod of the frames must be seperated from the equipment ground by a minimum of 10 feet to prevent backfeeding a lightening strike into your equipment ground.
Easiest path for lightning via your panels is by grounding them, it attracts the lightning by making a sure path for it. By them getting struck you will destroy your connected electronics no matter what you do just based on the flushing effect lightning has on earth ground. We want to believe, and your welcome to do so, that lightning is a thin line of electrical energy that just tracks as if by a rule the wire you installed for it. It absolutely does not. Solar arrays are more damaged due to group grounding than floating ungrounded. The more you make a massive target for lightning ( using a ground rod ) the more likely you will get your strike. Adding a nearby target that is fully attractive and taller totally prevents any lighting and sourcing your array. Consider this test. Take a 10 foot pole, add a heavy copper wire, connect to a deep ground rod, now hold that metal pole in your hands in the air during a lightning storm. Does all the lightning only go though the pole and wire? Or does or radiate into you that's holding the pole too?
Now do it separately with all mounted but you not holding it and note it does not radiate into you. Same effect if you ground the solar ( represented by you holding the pole ) or make a target not connected to you ( diversion mounted to draw strikes away from you ).
We choose diversion lightning rods (post) and omit our solar being the choice target.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 I presume you didn't read the entire response or misunderstood it as I indicated that the ground for the panel frames needed to be separated a significant distance from the equipment ground to avoid the flashover.
Having survived 2 near lightening strikes (within 10 feet), I am well aquainted with flashover. I have had my wind turbine pole(grounded) hit by lightening several times and the panels underneath the pole were fine as was the inverter.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 That may be truth only if all parts in vincinity are insulated from ground and not "naturally" grounded by rain. E.g. for cars and caravans with solar panels.
But it's usually not true for buildings, therefore even if the panel is not getting hit from lightning it will receive high voltage potential from lightning in vincity which will probably damage the regulator and other devices.
what if I have a metal converter that is screwed to the solar panel frame Johan, do I need grounding then, or is it also not necessary?
Thank you for the precious info.
I have an important question if you could help me with it.
I have an off-grid inverter that has a voltage of 60V between Neutral and Ground of the inverter AC output.
I am new in solar systems... I hear that this voltage should be 0V in order for RCD breakers to work properly.
After some research, some say that a way to solve this issue is to bridge ground and neutral on the electrical panel and ground them both.
Now I can see you say that inverters don't need to be grounded, but if there is a voltage between neutral and ground and you need protection from an RCD breaker, a way must be found...
I'm actually looking for a solution... What's your opinion regarding neutral/ground bridging on the inverter AC output?
Thankful for any kind of reply 👍
Spot on sir. Can't believe how many people confuse how ac & dc operates. Dc wants to get back to its negative whereas ac wants to get to earth ie the physical ground.
Lots of confusion is created by sellers and installers of power items. They want to confuse so they get the $$$$ from the fear.
Looking at a bunch of used panels and, some of them, the DC wires were chewed up with exposed conductors. On a van, truck or car, thats 12V DC..It gets alot more dangerous when you step that voltage passed 12 and it starts arcing through air gaps. Into you, down your aluminum ladder and into ground, when youre up there messing with them. My thoughts are wire the frames to ground, flip the breaker off during lightning then when lightning hits all your panels are potentially dead(probably not) but did you died tho? but theres some differences between fully off grid, on grid, grid tied, living in your house vs LIVING IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!!
You won't get arcing till you exceed 32 volts and not even unless you have your panels grounded will you get a arc from your positive wires. Buying used panels if about the worst thing anyone does, they were pulled due to imbalance and cell issues, no such as "oh we just wanted to upgrade" as if they are some new car model. The panels get pulled when the insurance company says they are not in spec or are failing. As for solar on vans, RV's and boats, about 2/3 who install them are running 2 or more panels in series with voltage exceeding 75 volts on average since they are using MPPT with 150 volt capacity.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Actually panel replacement on corporate solar farms are replaced when the tax write-off expires after 5 years. Depreciation is your friend when it comes to sourcing used panels.
Great vid. When I see a vid someone grounding there stuff or had there system fried, I send them to this vid. Hope you don’t mind. Bought the resistor pen from your list.
Great video, I have an off grid solar system (32 panels) and I dont ground them either.
Hi John. You got a point but sometimes the inverters get A/C energy from the Grid and that is why i guess they should be grounded.
Those models have a built in isolator ground circuit, it is based on a GFCI polarization circuit. If you test them you will find that once power is removed from the grid the pass through ground at the terminals vanishes. It returns when you reconnect the grid power. This is a relay in them that does it. If you connect that ground from the house/grid to the chassis then pass it into the wiring from the inverter you will notice a 2 to 3 volt reduction in the inverters output when not on grid.
Copper is a better conductor than rebar rust has even less conductivity. You want as low resistance as possible. In the car systems there is no ground because it is floating but you can get shocked when you get in and out of the car. Look up tn tn-s and tn-c-s systems
Iron oxide concentrations in the ground is the number one attractive path for lightning on the planet, over 95%. The higher the oxidation the more the field is. But copper deposits have no known record of lighting fusion or restructuring. Just because we coat the steel rod with 1.3 mil of copper plating does not mean the copper is the actual conductor to the inrush of charge or displacement of electrons, the steel is since it's molecules are more excitable by the backflow. That micro copper coating on the rod is for the above ground connection of clamps to meet code from the 1940's not to be a diffuser of energy.
YES! THANK You, Makes PERFECT SENSE!
0:23: The US uses a TN-C-S grounding arrangement for the low-voltage (secondary) distribution system. The neutral wire between the secondary winding of the transformer and each house’s service disconnect is considered a PEN conductor, it combines the neutral and ground wires into one. After the service disconnect, it splits into a separate neutral wire and ground wire. However, I disagree with the statement said @ 0:25 that the transformer ground wire is part of the circuit. It’s not. It does carry current, since the neutral wire is multi-point grounded by grounding it once at the transformer and also at each house once. But it’s not supposed to be used as the *main* return path for current, neither for normal conditions nor for line-to-case faults. It’s not a SWER (single-wire earth-return) system.
What your referring to is Common / Neutral and ground Bonding. A process is to increase the speed and safety of the circuit breakers. By doing so you get the line ( hot ) less able to default the energy into a identical size conductor ( neutral/common). Just do what 3 teens in Dallas did, Walk up to a few dozen poles and chop the "non circuit" ground wire. See how many smart meters responded back to the utility with shut down request. Then it was over 200 of them. It is a part of the engineered design to promote the center taps balance and return. When we installed over 130 massive wind turbines in the Texas Panhandle, western Nebraska, and most of southern Idaho from 2005 to 2008 the swash control switch on the transformers readings came solely from the ground cables. Not the HVT or the TRC.
A simple test used in the past was to connect the hot line to a ground directly to check the amp draw before circuit interruption. If Ground was not or never a circuit, it would do nothing.
I thank you for this but I see knee jerk dismissal of expertise or the civil service used by lobbyists to defend monopoly or consumer abuse or pollution a million times. I am learning from you and that's a great gift, I thank you again.
I've listened some more and it just keeps getting better! God bless you for explaining like I'm your own child!
As a master electrician, I have argued ALL of these points to people for years. Still people think I'm nuts. Go figure.
As a master electrician you believe that the earth is part of our 3 phase transmission circuit?
I was more excited to see you had riding mowers than the rusty rebar
Kiera has collected 2 more for rebuilding/repairing. 4 total now. She has the Murray, very old old ladies rider with only 54 hours on it, to make a fruit orchard trailer/water hauler, but it has a failed governor in it, so she got a case and gasket kit and new governor on the way. The other Huskee is a forest model to abuse, bush hog plan to deal with the back of her property it has as she says a transmission drive pully bound up, so it will be fixed when she collects enough $$ for one. Yes, I call it her property since I can't live forever and parents should build futures for their kids, not shove them off in crazy people making schools.
I love my mowers!
@@ayoungandoldsoul wouldn’t mind to see videos of lawn mower repairs, 80% of lawn mowers out there are MTD, might get a lot of hits
In low voltage dc it doesn’t make sense to ground it, however if you are running a 500v series and a positive wire gets a rodent in it and contacts it to the array you could be in for a bad day
Any voltage over 36 VDC I recommend inline fuses at the panels. Lower than 36 I install in line before the controllers.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 I’ve had 450 volt string go live to my array from squirrel damage. Flat knocked my dink in the dirt, grounded would have been better for me
Still do not ground it, Fuse it. Order you some burn safe fuse links, Add them in.
Contact Josh with Windy Nation, he will explain why to fuse what you have. And the best thing for dealing with squirrels chewing on your wiring is spraying risky areas with rustoleum underbody rubberized coating amzn.to/3HXWKRw . Place some cardboard under the wiring to protect back drop, and spray coat it with 2 coats. It retards sun damage, and it makes varmits vomit! Will last 10+ years.
Clearing a fault is not in the limited vocabulary of this discussion.
I have 10 on my lil bus i agree with you,its all metal roof protects them not a ground rod.
So how does one get rid of static electricity build up? I can get a shock from my 48v batteries and inverter charger. None of it is earthed.
I wouldn't earth for lightning but rather for a short circuit
Same static that you would get from your car, a aluminum storm door or RV body is what can come from solar panels if installed right. Yes, 48 volt is getting into the deadly voltage, That is why I am 36 volt and less. Earth grounding it is not a solution to produced DC under 200 volts since it will not naturally equalize to the ground during a short, you or a item in line will become the path. Not the same as AC that is checking to ground 60 times a second. The best thing is simply isolating with covers and proper breakers and durable battery switches on your system. Also, not running to many panels in series so you keep input voltages lower to prevent a high ended differential. I use a max of 65 to 70 volts solar on any 48 volt build to prevent such leakage from a failed Mosfet or Diode that may put my system at risk. .
nice practical anyway since there is no fault detection device for dc to disconnect on s/c to frame ( If a squirrel bites through) No point in earthing for auto disconnect anyway .
Good afternoon John
Thanks for the informative video. You had mentioned a lighting rod design that I'm having trouble picturing. We'll locate in a lighting prone area and would like to protect ourselves. Could you please explain the rod in more detail?
Thanks again
Scott
You use 4 sections of 1-3/8 Fence Top rail that is sold in 21 foot -6" sections. Very Cheap. You can get used on classifieds like craigslist or facebook often. Set them in concrete in a triangle 3 points at 4 feet apart 18" deep in concrete. You taper them to a peak, using bolts or plating connect the tops as you place another one in the center with a added 10 foot 6" piece down low under the 4th one ( single piece home depot $15), to end up about 29 feet total tube height. Very stable. You place 1/2 rebar up the center of the 4th one, the middle tube till its 2 feet out the top of the center tube with additional 1/2 rebar welded or clamped with heavy cable clamps till your down to the bottom and into the ground of the center tube about 2+ foot deeper than its 12 to 18" concrete. I may do a drawing and place it on my web page www.mydcvolts.com that I have been forgetting to update for a few months LOL!
This 30+ feet is generally much much taller than any solar, much taller by 10+" feet than a 2 story home, and more static attractive than any trees. You can go a little higher with a little common sense addition or adaptation.
Mine cost about $130 to build, and is why I will not worry about my solar.
Hi John, thank you for this very informative video. I now know that I do not need to ground my solar panels, although may I also ask if I need to ground surge protectors on the output of my inverter and dc input from my solar panels. My surge protectors has ground terminals and until now I am not sure if I need to ground it. Thanks!
You can and should on a GFCI or shock protection circuit using a new and totally separate ground rod far from the existing ( 20 + feet) then add a 10 awg ground to any surge protector. There is no need to ground any DC voltage under 36 volts unless its to chassis ( RV-BOAT-AUTO) . You can add a ground to them using the system your using for AC voltage but you should use a large Schottky diode or non active circuit ground when doing so.
The only man on planet internet that speaks plainly. Thank you@@JOHNDANIEL1
My trackers are lower than my neighbors metal shop and a 40 foot high oak tree. I measured ohms between the electrical panel ground and my steel pole in the ground mount. It was about 1100 ohms. I'm not going to ground it better than that. If I did it would attract lightning and blow everything to hell.
You are so correct no smart people and offices they just make rules and laws being annoying dear call DC voltage work if you ground easy voltage, you make a tremendous resistance to it running a dizzy voltage get you more trouble people do not realize and it is true what you say if you have solar panels, 6 inches above your roof and the grounding are you doing is building a serious lightning rod. Have a good day. Enjoy yourself and keep making videos.
Glad I watched this, I'm about to mount my panels, the brackets are already installed on the roof of my shed. Now I know I don't have to use the little aluminum clips between the panels or a ground wire to a ground rod. What about the sub-panel that is supplied by the inverter with 240v, the circuits will need a ground to meet code ? So do I connect a ground wire from the main panel? There is no other connection to the grid system, yet. Or would I connect to a ground rod (rebar) ?
When you go to AC voltage and anything over 60 volts DC then proper breakers and grounding is required on the AC side if its to join a existing system, the DC side can be left ungrounded as long as you have proper breakers but if your doing the most evil thing on the planet *GRID TIE* connecting then you must pay all the massive fees, follow every rule, connect to all ground connections and expect your pay off in a few hundred years.
As for the panel frames, you can ground by choice unless forced to do so, using a ground rod on them separate from anything your house is using and over 25 feet from a existing ground. Myself, I choose NOT to attract lightning to my panels but instead a dedicated lightning post but if you can get good replacement insurance on the panels then it's not a horrible idea to attract lightning so you can get new ones ever so often from a insurance claim.
You should ground if its part of a building with its own path to building's ground unless you have metal roof. But not ground the power wires from panels, you should use overvoltage/surge protection against ground together with fuses before FV regulator.
I am a self-taught electrical engineer and I agree with Two Chins 100%. (-:> Disclaimer: Don't blame me blame my teacher
Working on drafting drawings for installs makes you a engineer, repairing it in the field due to mother nature makes you a blue collar maintenance man.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 And taking the equipment back to your shop and fixing the engineering oversights/mistakes to make it actually work how it "theoretically should" make you a technician.
@@johnbrizendine7716 Yet the Edjumacated End-janeers get 500% more pay to guess at it.
@@johnbrizendine7716 i think i fall into that category, lifelong
Does an inverter feeding a breaker box need the box to be bonded? and a sub panel to that be left unbonded? The breaker box and the wind turbine are the only things I figure need grounding. three wire to a rectifier. If converting to DC does the turbine need a ground still? That was a really good video and thanks for answering many comments. It was informative reading.
So what about when u use a Bluetti device ac180 around 1800 watt unit. It has a grounding connection on it. Don't do it?
Grounding terminal on them don't usually connect in a bonded way so if you want to YES, will it do anything, very unlikely but it's a great confidence builder!
Earth grounds prevent the static buildup that causes lightning in the first place. For most panels, the frame is for bonding to that earth ground to prevent electrical charge buildup, it has nothing to do with the DC system voltage potential.
We will work on that when installing the 30 frameless panels this spring. However, when you do not ground your solar panels you get the same result as you do for not grounding your aluminum framed house windows. Static does not build up in non ferrous materials ( aluminum ) at the same rate as iron/steel, not even close.
I have a Victron charger controller and a solar charger that all connect together with batteries. If I have the building AC system connected to the inverter and that is connected to the ground of the pole, ... what happens to the inverter three wires if shore power cuts off? Is there an issue with any sort of ground loop? The 12V DC is connected and inverted to AC right?
When you connect a inverter, to a existing ground of a building or house then your sharing that ground. If a electrical condition exist that relies on that ground you can end up with a damaged inverter. They place this option on inverters to pass a improper UL and NEC rating. It is ok to do this with generators with a AVR in them, not ever to be done with brushless generators for the same reason. I only run on a GFCI from the inverter, then only use 2 wire on all shared circuits. Many inverters are different, but almost all will not run safe, especially high frequency models, sharing a ground with existing wiring. The best outcome is NOT to share house wiring, install new dedicated unless your buying a pricy quasi grid tie style inverter but using them means a huge cut in ability when grid fails.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Exactly!!! The only reason a UPS can do that; even though it's not really the same as having an inverter tied directly to the main breaker box, is because it has a lot of power conditioning circuitry and is specifically designed to act as a filter/conditioner for the grounded power going into it and to also automatically switch to backup battery power if the main power going into it is lost or over voltage or under voltage. I don't actually use inverters in my solar setups, I use all industrial grade high power with high power factor rack mounted APC UPS units that I have custom programmed for working as both UPS and standalone inverter systems.
Knurlgnar24 has a LOT of good information regarding modifying and reprogramming UPS backups to use as standalone and backup systems here on youtube.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Thank you. Of course. Victron has me ground the inverter to a rod outside the shed it is in too. Then when ac shore goes out it internally connects the ground and neutral. … as the batteries, solar controller and batteries are all connected to feed the shed’s ac wiring… the built in transfer switch etc helps.
@@johnbrizendine7716 These replies sure helped me understand more clearly. They also have me connect the negative battery cable to the ground rod by the shed. I don’t have the panel frames connected to ground though they are currently (pun intended) close to it.
Good information John, im sure glad you posted a new video because i was really worried that something might have happened to prevent it, like you getting sick or something going wrong at your place ! I told you that I always look forward to seeing your next video... 😊 Anyhow thanks for the explanation about not grounding solar ! I remember you had another video explaining the same thing awhile back but i guess people don't pay attention like they should..glad to see you're still going strong ..... Best wishes to you and family !
Doug...
There are people who will connect their solar panel frames to ground, some even their DC battery negative. They have all been lied to by sellers of materials related to the bad misinformed act.
yup, we're ok, thanks for thinking of us.
Hello Mr. Daniel, can you do a video on this...
I'm installing a solar power system in my barn. I connected the inverter to a breaker box for two circuits (120 and 240 volt). This solar breaker box is not connected to the barn grid power subpanel.
How do I ground the solar power breaker box? The inverter has a grounding lug, the PV combiner box has a grounding bar in it also. Are the three components mentioned (solar breaker box, PV combiner box, inverter) all grounded together and connected to an earth grounding electrode?
I have decided not to ground the 180 watt panels due to the lightning issue. Thanks for your videos!
Using a multi meter, with everything up and operating go and test from those ground lugs to the Positive & Negative on your DC system/Battery +/-. See if you get any circuit power, such as 10+ Volts DC in your results. If you do not, its only chassis grounding and you can using a 10 awg wire connect those items together and earth ground them for a simple static controlling ground. Static can gather in a chassis for a DC system ( touch the outside of your car body get a little ZAP when weather and atmospheric is right ) That only requires 3 feet of stripped copper coiled up in a 18" to 24" deep hole in the ground near your system.
As for safety on your solar frames or any roof mounted metals, go at least 50 feet and place a basic lightning rod 10+ feet higher than your solar is and you will cover those needs too.
Thank you, John, for your great video! Question: if you have solar panels on a metal roof and they are in parallel with the DC voltage over 100 volts and you are working on them and a down pour breaks out and you're touching the aluminum frames. Is there a possibility you will get shocked as water passes down your body and rolls off the roof to the earth which is ground? I have a 12 volt off grid system and my panels are all under 50 volts dc and in series, so I am not worried about grounding them. But some guys have systems where the DC volts can be 200 volts plus since they wired their panels in parallel. Thanks, if you have the time to answer.
If your wired wrong and your using the isolated aluminum frames as a conductor your already on the wrong path. However, if your up on a roof when rain is obvious your also starting the day bad. As for the rain and shock hazard the roof being metal far exceeds your conductivity of pure water ( rain water has no magnesium or saline in it to conduct much power under 500 volts ). **The scenario is like saying: *If I jump out a plane without a parachute but the ground is all marshmallows, and the wind is blowing 900 mph how hard will I hit the apple tree that's not there!* In other words, random rarity that if you die, it's a world record worth bragging about in the afterlife!
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Thanks John!
All cars are grounded, because all car tyres include small iron particles (iron "dust"). So all tyres are conductive. Not 100% rubber.
It is but not fully it is not a conductant but a bad insulator it may take some time untill the potential voltages are the same.
Cars are grounded to their own ground (forming Faraday cage).
what if you create some higher antenas to drive any possible lightning to ground... but not on array .. , is it ok ?? 2 or 3 poles around connected to grounding in a fair distance of metal pv frames and even higher
I explain that in the video, to use 3 cheap 21 foot Fence Top Rail to make a triangular mast, then it support 3/4 rebar another 6 or 7 feet further up to become the preferred path.
I thought it was code to have to have a power source earth grounded with a solid single wire
semi right, yrs don't ground dc, but do ground panel frames and mounting metal
I have a 35 foot rv with 2400 watts of solar in 4 strings 130 volts .
Should I bond solar panels inverter combiner box and battery breaker box to chassis frame HELP!
NO! Not if it ends up on same ground that the utility uses without putting in a inline circuit breaker safety. I have seen back feed destroy many inverters in RV's when they plug in and get chassis feedback. Use this, amzn.to/3ODDsDr for 30 amp, or this amzn.to/3DW7A87 for 50 amp then yes you can use the chassis ground, but I also install a 100 amp diode amzn.to/3DZmDOq to ground so NO back flow. When a AC unit kicks on, a high inductive load happens, and your on utility plug in, the common can get high loaded, it's spike can feed to ground, the chassis, and POOF your inverter or controllers eat it! Diode I use is so a fault in your system passes through, but a fault in something else does not. You take all solar, Inverter, Controller chassis with 10 awg wire to a buss bar, isolated, from it the Diode to frame.
Just tell them they need to go ground their cell phone. That should ring a bell.
That will make the Snowflakes SNAP!
I got luckily a light shock from an inverter due to a lightning strike in close vacancy of the house.
Definitely ground the metal inverter, or take out a life insurance policy....
Why would you get a shock from a isolated inverter unless you had its common running in the houses wiring, and the house has bonded common and ground. A inverter can not "receive" a lightning strike in any way unless your incorrectly using it. It is like saying your unplugged TV started to play 1960's sitcoms!
What about my 400ah battery bank in my truck..does it need to be grounded to my truck frame?
Connected as a DC circuit. Not grounded. Unless your planning on leaving your truck in one spot.
Thanks John 😊
Is there a video on the lightning rod made from fence top rail?
No, but I probably should do one. It's smarter to divert a possible lightning strike instead of attempting to manage one and that should be goal 1 for everyone.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Funny, I'm building a greenhouse with top rail right now. I'm picturing it with a ground rod attached from the peak. My aluminum sailboat mast with a pipe and my wind turbine are making me nervous now.
According to EG4, they recommend a ground rod on the panels because their inverters put out an AC voltage on the PV lines. Seems sketch but perhaps something to consider.
According to metallurgy, science, math and physics they are lying! Placing a ground rod on your panels, that are as electrically isolated as your car windshield, means their product is dangerous and they are looking for YOU to be to blame for damage or lack of safety of their product for "not doing it exactly right" no matter how you follow their plan because once you involve ( as a insurer will tell you ) Mother Nature, the earth, then the company is immune to claims.
Probably that's just "noise" or EMI.
Yeah I never quite liked their response on that one. I know enough to be dangerous and to know what they said doesn't fully add up :p
A grounding rod at the panels, or from the panels back to the main ground off the main service panel? The later is correct. You should never have the panels grounded separately from the main service panel grounding rod(s).
@@ssoffshore5111 yeah I completely agree. I ended up grounding off of an outlet I had nearby that was connected to the main service and that took care of my problem.
As a metal detectorist, I can at least say, when we find anything thats been in the ground for a long period of time, it will decay, that decay actually enlarges the signal. ONE QUESTION, how do you get a earth neutral bond on a off grid system without a ground??? you said to let your inverters float!!!! but they need a earth neutral bond, that is sometimes already done for you inside the inverter, other times you have to do it yourself, either way, the inverter is not floating.
Earth Neutral is a defined function of Grid Power, a part of its actual circuit. You do not create a circuit using the ground with Off grid power. Floating is the common and line ( hot) in a isolated use not a ground/common bonded like in a utility system. People can't get it into their heads that Utility power is mechanically created, nothing to do with inverters that create their output from synthesized electronic only methods. A comparison. Utility power ( mechanical over rotation over magnetic generators ) call it NON GMO Corn. Inverters, Switching and boosting from DC voltage using self contained conversion, Call it Franken food. With Corn you need the earth to plant it in, with franken food you need a clean soil free laboratory! Connecting to a ground with a inverter will damage the inverters, it will stop or damage your induced short detection safety system in that inverter so may makers knowing "people do not understand the output is NOT utility" often make a burn trace on the board to vaporize when a bonded system is connected to. A industry secret but a must have ability.
@@Urge38 think about if you have ever used a generator to power your home appliances (like refrigerator or cheat freezer during a power outage, or using one on a jobsite for running your saws and air compressors and such. That system is AC, just like whats coming out of your inverter, correct? Most smaller and even midsized generator aren't bonded to earth ground, because they utilize the same thing John is referring to here, a floating neutral. It seeks a path back to its OWN source to complete the circuit, NOT a path to earth.
Love the common sense education in this video.
I earth grounded my solar pane frames because you want to give the lightning bolt the shortest path to earth, otherwise it may run on your dc wires and reach your inverter where it will damage it
If lightning hits your panels there is nothing to stop it's effect on modern electronics. Nothing. The only solution is diversion like they use in massive arrays. Sacrificial sections or attraction mast are used. Grounding your panel frames only assist the lightning to find them. Does not stop the static energizing all of it.
It has something to do with insulating the whole object from ground potential. So it might work for Faraday cage type of installation like caravans. But even for those installation you should ground everything (e.g.regulator) to the common ground of the insulated object to avoid potential differences.
So the video is partly true, but the explanation is rather confusing.
so true .why dc
$$$$. Nothing explains why you would have to ground the frames on a solar panel, but not a Aluminum Skylight! If you let the panel float electrically like you do the skylight you get no path to ground to attract lightning. In fact, Pella Windows tells its builders this exact fact.
I have a 1500 watt inverter if it is connected to my batteries directly no ground I connect my phone to it, it goes nuts opening things without touching it but if I ground my inverter to my negative terminal battery it stops but it seems like the battery goes dead faster so could I ground my inverter to the frame of my trailer will that stop it or do I have a faulty inverter i'm asking because I never could get a straight answer from the internet lol
Make sure the inverter or anything to do with it is touching the trailer frame or ground is being shared anywhere on the trailer first. If it is doing this to your phone it is due to something touching or connected that is giving some sine wave effect to your USB ports. By grounding it to the battery your shunting it and yes using some juice to do it. So its related to the inverter and how its wired to AC outlets or sitting on metal frames or similar actions. Phone touch screens react to open ground in the screen layers to your touch, if your inverter is sending it a few odd hertz of sine wave it can behave wild.
It may be pointed out the following, for US-users:
1. Two-wire DC systems between 60-300 V are required to be grounded (i.e. to ground one current-carrying wire, usually the negative) [sec. 250.162(A) of the 2020 NEC].
3. PV system grounding is not required but is allowed [sec. 690.41(A)(1) and 690.41(A)(4)]. In other words, it’s optional to ground the negative or positive wires of a PV array.
4. PV equipment grounding is required [sec. 690.43]. In other words, the electrician must ground the metal frames of the PV modules (solar panels).
5. The NEC really just requires to connect an EGC to the exposed metal parts of the PV system, not to install a new grounding electrode system. But installing a new grounding electrode system and connecting it to the PV equipment is allowed and optional.
6. In telecom systems, all 48-V systems have the positive wire grounded.
As explained in the video, this is for DC non commercial systems and home power use. Mine is 12 to 36 volt, many I have installed are 140 to 300 volt and require a arrestor and some structural grounding by code but not the panels frames. All must be fused, all are fused, but no DC circuit can share a ground with a AC system.
We installed NiCad in many Telecom systems, mostly Sprint, some T-mobile. No grounding on the 56 volt modules was ever done, just the battery case and shunts had a circuit breaker to ground. All the solar used on those were 90 volt and frameless with no ground on them but the cables were in metal conduit that was grounded.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Section 690 applies to all PV arrays, it’s not limited to commercial ones. So even the metal frames of residential PV arrays must be grounded.
@@altuber99_athlete That only applies to commercially installed, not home owner installed to be used with Grid Connecting hardware. And not even in every state. There is zero regulations on owner installed that is not to be connected to the grid unless the county/city provides a code requirement. In Texas, that's only in 16 counties of the 254 counties we have. And for DC systems 36 volt and less, that is only applied to in 18 counties of the 254 counties. For 48 volt and higher its in 83 of the 254 counties. 2014 NEC Article 690 and all alterations does not include by mandate: Home Owner, Mobile, Non Domicile, Recreational, Farm, Non Occupied structures, and Remote Rural sites.
690 is procedures and guidelines ( if adopted by your state or municipality ) for Licensed Electricians or Service Techs to follow during install and service of such systems. Continually trying to read into it a Boogie Man to play games with is not realistic. enkonn-solar.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Article-690-Photovoltaic-PV-System.pdf
@@altuber99_athlete Spend some time telling this guy your findings. He's teaching it, He needs straightened out th-cam.com/video/nKWf7XTg-wg/w-d-xo.html
I saw earlier that your discussion board said that LiTime's 12V 100Ah mini battery would be evaluated? Why haven't we sent the video yet? I want to buy it, but I want to see your comments on this product!
Still doing a long term 2 month test on them. They have Pouch Cells in them, Rumor has it, Pouch Cells like those in Cell Phones deteriorate faster no matter the chemistry in them. ( samsung engineers warning 2020 on LiFePO4 Pouch/leaf Cell use) Something to do with the effect of stretch during folding of the materials inside. So I got them, the company wants me NOW NOW NOW to show them since what I paid was less than list price and upon agreement I would do a video on them, but I will not just do a video saying WOW THESE ROCK if they may SUCK! *I will leave the Show and Tell videos for sales up to Professional Promoters with fancy cars, deep pockets and high paid channels who tongue swab the rears of Google.
I wear a ground rod on my football helmet everywhere I go to protect myself against 5G.
Yes, but your likely picking up Alien signals now.
Some systems the inverters backfeed ac. Im dealing with this currently on an eg4 off grid system. 140v ac from panel frame to ground. Its in a steel roof so the entire roof is hot. Roof needs grounded for safety
*Roof needs grounded for safety* ( missing WHY you have power into your roof and panel frames!!!!!! )
Wanna stop that connection? Remove the inverter from the earth ground, you stop wild AC from being shared in a DC system that is connected to earth in the same location. Treat a inverter and solar controllers *As NOT BEING A UTILITY COMPANIES 3600 rpm generating earth circuit conducive power system,* and Voila! everything fixed!
I learn so much from this channel lol
I'm not here to diss you. You, as a man and a father just recently gained my respect. 😊
But... you do seem to be a little confused in regard to electricity and electronics.
I will not start blabbing about my experience but:
*Grounding* in any electrical circuit is a protection feature.
In AC systems it can also properly protect us from electrocution.
In DC systems, grounding protects the electronic components and protects us too from loosing cash, housing, life and limbs.
There are three main big dangers in solar power systems that can be reduced with propper grounding:
Electrostatic buildup - your panels and cables mihht be high-up somewhere and if they float (electrically) in regard to the ground, they can acumulate really big electrostatic charges. These can really damage electronics even if it can't pose a (direct) life or health issue.
Faults and EMI/RFI - now these won't work in impropper instalations but, in general, poropper grounding and propper overload protection systems can prevent electrocution, electrical fires and radio interference.
Induced surge currents from lighthning strikes - now, if your system is struck by lightning you're screwed, period. But if the strike is not direct, dangerous currents are still induced in your system. The later can be adressed by propper grounding and propper protectiin circuits.
The ground is a _third_ conductor in any circuit. It is the conductor we humans are in contact with. It is regarded as a neutral refference and usefull in fault detection and mitigation.
As anything else on this particular planet, impropper grounding can do more harm than good.
Stuff that is high-up should be grounded or have pathways to grpund for surges. Stuff that can leak currents on the outside sould be grounded.
Not confused one bit, but if grounding solar panel frames is important to you, do it. Grounding unpowered things that are on everything will need a few trillion tons of copper. Argument being equal, unless its to be cherry picked to eliminate inconvenient facts. See you at the aluminum skylight grounding party.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 iron is good enough for putting those electrostatic buildups to rest ;)
You reminded me tgat a local hardware shop used to sell copper plate, cables and rods for grounding and I found out after they sold it all and never stocked back again because it sat in shop gor years
Edit: and I was writing specifically about electric/electronic stuff not skylights but I'd ground that too.
Let me tell you about a personal experience I had a month ago. I lost $5 worth of equipment but that is not the point.
My pv system at my new home is currently under construction. Nothing fancy or big, just 1.2kw of pv on the roof.
The grounding and suppressors are still work in progress and I forgot to disconnect the array when I left for a while.
There was a storm, not much but with some lightning in the area. The house was disconnected from mains, the charger was disconnected from the battery but still plugged in the solar array.
One digital voltage/current monitor was fried. Nothing else but if the esd/surge
protection box would've been grounded (and populated with the appropriate IGDs :)) ) nothing would've happened.
Stay safe. The costs of grounding and protections are no match for the costs of property, health or life.
@ So far, and thats just due to medical center records deaths from any form of DC voltage is responsible for 108 deaths since 1980, nearly all are misuse of a welder. AC voltage is responsible for 331,800 deaths since 1978.
When a solar and controller event happens, 99% of the time it is that the controller was earth grounded, using the chassis post or shared a ground with the structures utility rated ground circuit. Any if not all ground rods produce a eddy current to above ground objects, and can in storms release a discharge voltage. They are for AC voltage, not DC. ep2000.com/understanding-neutral-ground-grounding-bonding/ and the facts about DC voltage can be easily summed up by the following www.history.com/news/what-was-the-war-of-the-currents
Your frames on your solar panel are like your frames on your windows, skylights, metal flashing on a shingled roof. In fact, the National Roofing Contractors Association recommends NOT to deliberately ground metal objects on your roof to deter corrosion and lightning opportunity.
Lightning arrestors, EMP devices and grounding non in circuit solar panel frames is snake oil and only increases your likely damage.
Okay, I think a lightbulb just illuminated in my brain. A few years back, when our house was being built, I decided to make it 100% off grid instead of paying 30+k for the local power company to bring power to our land in Southern UT. I built the solar array and installed the panels as well as the inverters, etc. I let a friend who's was an electrical engineer in Germany help me. I'm using two 5k grow watt inverters that are supposed to operate in together to give me 10k of inverting power, but they will only work properly when the solar is NOT turned on and running through the inverters. If I hook up the current sharing cables and the other parallel cables, just using my battery bank, (6 100ah lithium batteries), everything works great, but as soon as I turn on the solar, I get an over current error or something like that. No one at Signature Solar could figure it out so all I've been doing is running on one inverter and using the other inverter as a battery charger, which is such a waste. It's been running fine so I haven't messed with it since I resolved to use it as stated but now that I've watched your video, I'm inspired to disconnect all the grounds and see what happens. If that fixes my problem I'll be buying you all a pot of coffee.
@@georgedrenes8143 what happened?
Idk why people trying to discredit your info but you clearly know and understand alot in this field....its like you actually cracked the code something alot of manufacturers wouldnt like most of these guys that are against your argument could be manufacturers themselves wanting many consumers to be inviting lightning into there systems instead of directing it elsewhere that was the main take away from the video but these ppl keep missing the 👉 point
I had one ungrounded array and three other arrays that were grounded and guess which ones the lightning bolt hit last june? The one that was ungrounded of course!
That's psychotic. I'd buy lots of lottery tickets if I was you. A one in a 5 billion happened to you already. Solar panels with no attraction to lightning gets hit when next to it the ones screaming *THROUGH ME THROUGH ME* we are the shortest route, gets ignored. LOL!
@@JOHNDANIEL1 I worked in the broadcast industry years ago and over my long career, I witnessed lightning strike the ground, some 8 feet from a 250' radio tower. Totally changed my belief system!
My wife caught the event with her phone camera!
th-cam.com/video/e1Tx9ABR4hE/w-d-xo.html
I didn't see the lightning hit the panels, looks like maybe behind them. Ungrounded would not make it attract the strike. Like I said, buy some lottery tickets! Adding a ground or being grounded attracts lightning to that easier more conductive source to get to the ground. I worked in the telecom industry for some years and the towers got hit a lot, the internal components and equipment was all floating as well as the building it was in to prevent lightning using it as a path. More likely something in the ground attracted that lightning, not those panels or you'd seen some immediate damage. I have seen lightning strike next to a water tower but that was the visible light, the strike went though the tower frying 4 large solenoid valves in it. The light energy made no marks on the ground but heavy scoring was on the intermediate cross members 30 feet up.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 It definitely hit the 3rd or 4th top panel and in the very next frame, you can see fire and sparks jumping from panel to panel along the entire left half of the array.
Lightning is attracted by a potential difference path. Usually a sharp edge is a good attractor. That's why on tops of radio towers we used to install dissipators that look like a metal tree like thing with lots of spikes.
The purpose of grounding panels is to provide a path to ground, not through your equipment to ground. All building electrical systems have a ground, so there's no way to float the electrical system. The best approach is to shunt it at the source.
I’m not an Electrition but I understand DC don’t need to be grounded but when you have solar panels you turn DC into AC so the AC need to be grounded am I wrong about that
Yep, wrong about that. The Solar panel is a device that only makes DC voltage. A Solar Controller is a device that takes that "wattage" and converts it to DC Charging to place the results into a storage battery system. From that storage battery you get again, DC voltage until you send that to a Inverter, which is a device that synthetically makes a alternating current/voltage to use on AC devices. Since a Inverter is not a power generation system ( utility ) it is making the conversion from DC to AC power with some form of buck boosting and switches to create a sine wave, usually Mosfets and transformers. That process only creates 2 fields. Some are both synthesized as both hot + Line 1, hot - line 2 and some from pure sinusoidal wave of ZERO on Hertz. NONE are using a ground to create the output. The controller circuit in a inverter is used as the safety system, it actually can not fail either, so it is safer than a actual "earth Ground" since it does not require numerous connections to function. It works as follows. *Billy grabbed the output of a inverter, he was SHOCKED to see it immediately shut off. He heard from the brilliant code talkers that it would kill him. Then Billy learned a Inverter is sensitive to "wave variation" and will fault so fast that it's considered the safest power system to use in Ambulances and Hospital equipment since only 1.5% wave variation will fault it to stop working verses up to 15% in a Utility Grid non GFCI systems with double bonded circuits.*
The Ground post on a inverter do not actually do anything but chassis grounding, however you do not have voltage in the chassis, TILL YOU GROUND IT!!!
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Grounding and null pole (blue conductor wire of AC wiring) are not the same! Old wiring schemes used only 2-wire AC which one was null conductor and null pole which was grounded, but only in the local end (house wiring after 3phase division). Modern AC wiring uses Power, Null and Earth protective wire (yellow/green) which are never connected except where it begins - in residual and overcurrent switch device (best solution for higher safety). Same as modern inverters use the 3-wire output which reacts to residual current and will shut down once live wire output is tampered (except the cheap ones). Residual protection works due to Earth/protective grounding!
I would say that the whole explanation is quite a misconception.
You are true in some points in the video but not here.
I am getting 35 volts on my solar panel frames but only when my inverter is connected. How is that possible and how do i correct it? My 1st thought was to ground it.
Have you grounded your inverter or connected its output to the house/structures wiring? If so, your common in the inverter and the eventual path made will lead to ground and you will get that kind of effect.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 the inverter is grounded and it's not connected to any house wiring. I did some investigating and found I was getting 140 volts from an inductive effect from unused wires packed in the conduit so I'm looking in to that. Still can't beleave I got a shock from a completely unconnected at both ends ground wire.
@@Ranch321 People for some reason ground their inverters to Earth ground that is on or near a system used for Utility power. Even being close to those systems can cause voltage leakage. The inverters output is wild AC, common is a created format, not a result or earthing like a utility has to do. So you have a active phase from the inverter getting into the ground or common, or even earthing, I prove this to so many people it's not even funny but they insist some genius says they have to do it. In reality, a inverter or generator is a stand alone power creation and has to be 100% treated as one. NO sharing of wiring without 100% dedicated transfer equipment in the link.
@@Ranch321 If you have 1 single volt with enough non atmospheric amperage to shock you on your solar panel frames, you caused it to exist, it simply can not exist due to the fact the frame is metal in any way. The aluminum frame is NOT in the circuit of your DC voltage, the earth or your inverter without you making a connection to it. It is 100% isolated, just like your car, fence, lawn mower is until you introduce a circuit into it from a source.
@@JOHNDANIEL1 so after grounding the unused wires in the conduit the voltage seems to have all but disappeared so I think it was feed back from an inductive load generated by the proximity of the unconnected wires in the conduit. Also the grounding rods im using are 600 + feet from the utility grounding.
oxidized metal is not a good conductor of electricity:
Oxidation
When a metal's surface is exposed to oxygen, it reacts with the oxygen molecules to form metal oxides. These oxides can make the surface more resistant, which decreases the metal's electrical conductivity
Ahem.. NOT creating... COMPLETING a circuit. Thanx for making this point about grounding. Remember back in the 60's and 70's when there was a grounding strap underneath the cars..? hehe.. they were surely smoking funny things.
Yes I remember them! Some even used short lengths of chain!
Their purpose was to prevent static build up ...... resistance through tarmac is Not good ;o) ..... which is what allows you to build up the static in the first place!
This guy is the salt of the earth more people need to be straight up and to the simple point.
Failing health and resulting failing finances are forcing me into full time RV boondocking, and of course everything will be DIY. I will be building batteries using EVE LF280K cells, covering the roof of the trailer in solar panels in parallel to diminish shading issues, and possibly next year building a wind turbine to add to the trailer. My college electronics is 46 years rusty, so I'm wondering if you are able to some mentoring? My current thoughts are to build 4, 12 volt batteries in parallel (total 1120 amphours)., feeding a busbar, feeding a 4000 watt inverter. In case the trailer is in partial shade, I'm planning some portable panels as well. To top up the LIFePO4 batteries while driving it sounds like I'll need a DC to DC charger. It seems I may need multiple solar/wind controllers. I realize those are a lot of topics, but any thoughts you can throw my way would be appreciated. Thanks for reading my lengthy chat.
I would if you want to save $50 easy, go to Sun Gold right now, they are best thing going shrsl.com/42bmr
If you get 18 panels, you can run 6 at a time on 3 of the HQST 40 amp controllers ( amzn.to/41wEohx ) running them 2x2x2 like a 24 volt set up, 44 volt, that will make your outcome perfect for your 12 volt RV system on those controllers. I say to use the HAT metal for mounting them, but work with what you have. The best battery is a pair of the TIME USB 220 shrsl.com/42bna so when you can afford it you can add one more, or end up with 4 total which will make your plans complete. But 2 will run a 3200 watt SWI power inverter to run a good sized AC unit, you would need 3 or 4 of them to run a AC unit, Microwave, TV, Refrigerator and more on a pair of inverters or a 4000 watt Sun Gold. I Prefer the Sungold 4k for RV use.