737 pilot here, not in USA. You analyzing this kind of videos will help you A LOT in your career as a pilot. Some people study only to pass exams, others study to be professionals. You are a pro. Love your channel Munden. Keep the good work.
Analysis becomes understanding, and a lot of times you uncover many things in the course of the investigation that you didn’t know or weren’t exposed to correctly before. I did an in-depth review on a Lancair crash for college a few years back, and uncovered things that weren’t even fully explored in the NTSB report. Same goes for the FlyOn helicopter crash that killed 5 in the Hudson River a handful of years ago. It’s crazy what you learn through others’ mistakes.
I hate to admit this, but when I was teaching full time and had a discovery flight student, I would perform a quick walk-around, make sure the oil and fuel was good. Then I would do my safety briefing to the passenger and teach them about how the doors windows, and seatbelts work. Then I would start the engine, and off we would go. I usually had been flying that same plane all morning so my walk around was very brief. I’d skip the run up and flight control checks as they’d already been done at least twice that day. I had the checklist memorized, so I never used one. I was about as complacent as a 500 hour part 61 CFI could be. It’s a wonder nothing bad ever happened. It certainly could’ve. I got lucky. Do not be like me. I’ve learned from my mistakes and take it much more seriously now. The airlines have really drilled the flows and checklists into me. I feel naked not to use them now. My guess is he did the walk around with the flaps down, got in, started up, and completely forgot they were down. He didn’t run a checklist, or a flow, or even look outside. Probably just complacent and sent it!
Integrity and honesty is what passes on some important lessons. Kudos for stepping up and saying "Hey I am prone to this as well." I am too and I too have made mistakes. I usually catch them because I push myself to stay on that checklist. However, sometimes you don't catch it until you have a moment to reflect on the flight. A thing I do and say before any intro/discovery flight is "Everything in aviation has a checklist to save our bacon." Sounds silly, but it reinforces the act of actually using and following it as I have them follow me around on the preflight.
$80 for discovery flights these days. pretty cheap considering inflation but when I did mine, it was $20 (back in the late 90s) and it was great. my instructor and I did the pre-flight at the school hangar as part of the teaching experience and once all was clear, he had me do everything from startup, taxi, takeoff, and on. he, of course, took the radio. my 30 minutes started when the wheels left the runway. he gave me clear instructions on everything and never touched the controls. even on landing. it was so easy. I wish I'd been able to afford completing the course. btw, my discovery flight was also in a Cessna 172 but it was a Skyhawk. very nice plane to fly.
30 degree flaps is too much drag. I went on a flight with two friends one time and we all weighed about the same as these guys and it was a C172 also. But I opted to fly with a half tank of fuel. And gee, I set the flaps to 10!!
Pilot and 2 passengers in a 172S, eh? With full fuel and two passengers being overweight themselves, that easily pushes the gross weight over the 2550 max. Flaps 30 is crazy, I don't know why the pilot didn't put it at 0 or 10. No wonder the plane pitched way up. Checklist checklist checklist, nobody is above using them. Edit: To clarify, not saying two people on this flight were actually overweight, I don't know. Just generally speaking for this aircraft model, two of three people on board being overweight can easily push past the max gross weight if the fuel is full, too. Even with nothing in the baggage compartment.
The Cessna flap switches are incredibly poor-small and electrically powered, making it easy to see why someone might miss adjusting the flaps. In contrast, Piper aircraft have a much better system: the large lever, when fully raised, clearly indicates that the flaps are fully extended. Glad I only have 3 hours in a Cessna
@@abdimaliksharif1586 That claim is just absurd. There are no situations where someone accidentally deploys the flaps on a C-172, as the flap switch is notched. Also, a final flight control check and visual look around before take off would have quickly reveled the flaps being down. This was a pilot mistake all around, nothing more, nothing less.
@@redbaron6805 cessnas are still trash, no need to defend my friend. There were times where i wanted 10 degrees of flaps and i got full flaps instead due to a gust of wind. you can call that pilot error but its design error too.
@@abdimaliksharif1586 That claim is facepalm stupid it deserves an entirely new category. There is a reason the C-172 is the most produced aircraft of all time, and is the #1 trainer for pilots for multiple decades already. Once you graduate from kite flying, you will understand...
The thing about adjusting trim with the stall warning blaring tells me a lack of understanding by the pilot. It makes me wonder how he passed a CFI oral.
"HOW TO INTENTIONALLY CRASH A CESSNA 172" should have been the title. The c172 with full fuel is a 2 + 2 plane. The +2 is small kids or minimal luggage. I'm guessing an aft CG problem. Pilot claims they pitched the nose forward. They're either lying or the aft CG overload prevented that nose pitch forward.
Flaps 30 on takeoff is insane. Youd never miss that if youre reading checklists. I used to read my checklists out loud even if I was by myself just to be sure I skipping anything.
I realize this may be a selfish request but it would be cool if you made a aviation for dummies video (if you haven’t already), I say that cuz I know jack squat about aviation but I’m extremely fascinated by it and I’d love to be taught by you specifically, I can’t pin point it just yet but they way you teach and explain is ear catching and just plain phenomenal and I’d love to hear more, especially the basics, and bravo sir, this Channel makes me want to feel the euphoria of taking the the skies
Hey bro I just came across your channel. Nice analysis videos. This as you said was very preventable. Aviation is not something to be rushed, checklist checklist checklist identify verify. I subbed you, greetings from the Philippines!
I've seen this happen a number of times. To do the preflight you lower the flaps, but then forget to retract them after engine start. I've actually called on a handheld to warn the pilots. If in my relatively limited experience I've seen it multiple times this must happen a lot. It's easy to miss a checklist item especially with distractions like people asking questions (good luck on a sterile cockpit on most discovery flights). Lightly loaded a 172 can sort of kind of take off at 30 degrees of flaps (not 40 as some go to) but no way when over MTOW.
The way to deal with checklists: 1) check they do not contain errors or BS steps. 2) Dry run the checklist in the cockpit and ensure it makes sense. I find often they do not, so get them fixed. 3) Tell the student to STFU politely while running checklists. Ask them to watch, and ask questions AFTER, when asked. 4) If interrupted during a checklist, stop, deal with the interruption, then START OVER. Do not try and continue part way through.
@paradoxicalcat7173 POH checklists are frequently wrong or inadequate due to changes and updates. So your steps 1 and 2 are important or the checklist loses relevancy. Step 4 is more important than most people realize. Let me relate an example from another field. I created a test checklist for a high voltage battery rack. The techs took a break in the middle of the checklist and when they returned they picked up missing several steps. This resulted in one tech getting across 1200 volts DC, blowing him off a ladder. Luckily he survived this. If interrupted it is very easy to miss critical items.
I watched a fatal turnback crash at North Perry (KHWO) just over ten years ago due to a Lancair prop reduction gear failure - I have no idea how they survived that hit - it had to have been the soft dirt - also this looks like the trim was set way to high in the video and that overweight needed at least 10-to-20-gal of fuel to be removed - two major no no's - I have around 350hr in a 172 and the third person weighed over 350lb so we could never fly with the three of us and full tanks in any model 172 -
Looking at the footage, it doesn't look like they had flaps down. I kind of echo another comment and ask, is it possible the impact caused the flap switch to go towards the floor? Also wondering what the weight of the pilot was. Being that the 172 can seat up to 4 people, this seems like a mistake I could have easily made myself.
Is it possible that the inertia of the hard crash might have pushed the flap lever down? i couldn't tell from the video if the flaps were actually down or not.
That would be bizarre as when you check the controls, you would normally glance back and around the plane during runup. Leaving the flaps down at 30 degrees during takeoff is basically unheard of. It is a mistake that really shouldn't be possible to happen if someone did even elementary checks before takeoff.
@redbaron6805 Yet I am pretty sure he somehow missed it and didnt leave flaps 30 deliberately. So the question is how and why he made this mistake, bizarre or not 🙂
@@kbg990 It is a mystery for sure. I got over 200 hours in a C-172 and probably 600+ landings, and not a single time did I forget to retract the flaps. We would always retract them as soon as we left the runway, or as soon as we landed on touch and go's. I made mistakes like anyone else flying the C-172, but flaps were not one of them.
Who knows why, but it surely looks as though he tried to be zoomy and stalled the damn plane. I think if he’d lowered the nose a bit he would have been under control, and that’s always job one. Might have climbed away if the flaps were set properly, or settled back much more slowly if the flaps were over extended.
I can confirm the 172 will BARELY fly or climb full fuel two pax. I flew my brother in-law and girlfriend at the time and flew with quarter tanks and i was behind the O-300 at 2500 DA, Barely hilding 250FPM. luckily you can climb at that rate and be fine in texas.
Crazy lucky to live. Crashing both on exposed dirt as well as landing on the wing and rolling like that saved them. Incredibly fortunate, glad they got away with one there.
Is it also possible that the two passengers both lied about their weights on the reservation, giving him incorrect data for his weight and balance that he supposedly did before they arrived? I used to have to card people at a bar/restaurant, and you'd be surprised at the number of people whose drivers license says they're at least 50 lbs lighter than they are when they're dressed to go out partying--both male AND female. But it seems to me that this pilot didn't even think about the fact that his two passengers' weights together add up to a huge percentage of the maximum full-fuel payload of 560 lbs; unless he only weighs
With 30 flap it lifted early, then he tried for normal climb attitude. Is flap lever on this plane the sort where you have to stop it at the angle you want. He could have been setting for 10, got distracted, but stopped at 30, didn't visually check.
@@CFIIMunden oh I know it's a terrible idea. I'm not asking because it'd be something I'd do. I'm asking because I can't figure out how it's even physically possible.
I think he got confused by the position of the flap lever and he though they were fully up when they were fully down. Couple that with being overweight and possibly out of CofG they were doomed....Flying....Great when it works bad when it doesn't.
It's no accident, It was an experimental test flight. . . All check list items modified from standard, Results? Use established data and criteria as a pilot in command
172s HAAAATEEE extra passengers, I took off with 4 1 time 30 pounds over weight and I had to roll that bitch up to about 80 kts before I felt comfortable climbing out, and I made sure our departure and destination had looooong runways just incase something I didn’t like happened. This feel like just pure negligence.
well hopefully that instructor realizes now he/she has no business flying let alone teaching and should find a different career before he/she kills someone.
My take away here is a rushed carrier instructor rushing there way up the ladder glossing over basic aviation lore to bigger things. And it could also be said of there instructors too. What ever happened to old school methods of teaching!
Maybe rushed maybe not. I like flows ONLY if followed up with checklist. It's evident, he did not use the checklist or did a weight and balance. I think the additional info on weight and balance was just fluff, just my opinion. Flaps lifted the plane up early. However, we know he didn't use the checklist so trim was probably out of wack. I'm not suggesting this but we would use FAST in recurrent (simulator) for quick takeoff......Flaps Set, Airspeed Set, Speed Break Up, and Trim Set. These are major items on a jet. Moral of the story, use the checklist, do a wt/bal, and don't get in a hurry!!!!!!
I was working on my commercial at this very same airport in a Cessna 172/G1000. Part of the before takeoff checks included autopilot and trim. I had a runaway trim and on takeoff the aircraft just popped off the runway way sooner then I would expect. Fortunately, I resorted to treating the takeoff as a soft-field, and pushed the yoke forward, with considerable force, to keep the aircraft in ground effect until sufficient airspeed to climb out. I should have aborted the takeoff, but everything happened so fast.
From your description of the discovery flight you took looking for other schools the instructor was incompetent and unqualified! This is precisely the problem! Instead of helping correct the issue we have with young incompetent instructors just hour building we just kinda brush it off as "oh, I guess the instructor was rushed and i understand because they are rushed quite frequently to do these discovery flights ". This is totally unacceptable!!! As you stated, a student pilot should develop a flow check, and absolutely under no circumstances deviate from this procedure! Why do we keep discussing this same subject over and over but no actions are taken?? This has to stop ! The fact that we so many incompetent dangerous instructors out there means we also have too many incompetent DPEs or these cfis would never get certified! We already have a serious problem with the lack of enough DPEs to handle this ridiculous push for more pilots to fill this imaginary pilot shortage. I enjoy your content and please understand I'm not focusing this rant and frustration towards you personally but we have a serious problem. Some of these crashes need to be plastered all over the news on TV and news sites all over the world to get someone's attention. One accident in particular that ,in my eyes, does not get enough attention, is the tragic loss of Jenny Blaylock and her father. She's the young lady with the TN Flygirl channel. This accident was swept under the rug as far as I'm concerned and here's why I say this. I live in TN not far from where she regularly operated and where the crash occurred but didn't even know that this happened until months afterwards. I'm constantly on flying related social media channels and networks because I'm an avid pilot and do nothing but live for aviation. If this accident was taken seriously everyone in the country should have at least learned about it in a week or so. I had never heard of her or her channel period before the crash. If you aren't aware of the details of this crash, look into it . Any instructor that had any flight time with Jenny should at the very least stripped of all teaching privileges for life and in opinion grounded for life . Even anyone at the airport where she operated should be ashamed that they did not scream from the top of there lungs that this young lady was 100% unqualified to fly PIC and absolutely was not capable of of safely owning and flying a complex aircraft. She recorded all her flights on video for the whole world to see and no one stepped up and said " wait a minute, this girl is dangerous and has absolutely no business flying PIC" I'm shocked that our industry is not screaming from the hills about the level of incompetence involved with anyone associated with her and her flying adventures. Someone should have spoken up and saved her and her father's lives. I realize this is a long rant but I'm passionate about safety and I hope ti get more involved in raising awareness to the issues we have in our training philosophies as a whole. I'm afraid we've created a monster of a problem that will take ten years to change simply because the FAA moves as fast as a snail . Let me finish up by saying , I'm not bashing ALL young pilots building hours. But I will say and do believe we have way too many that simply become cfis because in all honesty, it's the quickest and easiest way to rack up those hours . This is a lazy attitude that will get people hurt . Thank you for the videos and keep up the good work!
I totally agree with you. We have a massive problem in our system that is leading to a huge amount of GA accident. I’m hoping to make this videos in order to teach lessons and learn from the mistakes that our fellow pilots have made. Thank you for the comment and I definitely understand your frustration.
Bureaucracy is useful to get day to day things done, but also is slow as you mention. Instructors are human as are students and yes, the school administration and even the administrator. Harry Truman said, "The buck stops here." He was a good leader who took responsibility for everything that happened or failed to happen in his Artillery Battery in WWI. Jesus said to give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and we have to honor our leadership in aviation. They do a lot of good, but as we go down in the system and get closer to the problems we also have less influence. There are self-serving instructors, but very few in my sixty eight years in aviation. Most are very dedicated to teaching flying and their students. They have very clear, well written, orders from the very top, however called Airmen Certification Standards. I work with local instructors attempting to teach what we call "workarounds" in another bureaucracy, The Army. I know I can push Wolfgang's law of the roller coaster and zoom reserve airspeed before any pitch up only so far, but young instructors can encourage their students to take advantage of the +or- flexibility in V-speeds to takeoff a little faster, get a little faster before pitch up for positive rate of climb on go around, and land a little slower. Yes, accidents eventually send messages even to general aviation. How long would airlines be able to operate with such poor energy management procedures? Anyway hang in there. Give them hell (the administrators who set the standards) Harry. Don't beat up on the troops.
I completely agree! One video with an EXTREMELY dangerous CFI was deleted. Part of the cover-up, but I watched it before it got removed. Tons if comments calling for him to be identified and permanently grounded. The real sad thing is TN Flygirl was aware her training was inadequate, but for some reason felt unable to speak up. I suspect she may have tried to complain in the past but got shutdown by a wall of silence. She did actually fire her CFI because of YT comments (yes, really) but it seems some bad habits were not undone. She really needed, and would have benefitted from, starting from scratch. She actually had a lot of knowledge, but had never developed the skills to apply them in the cockpit. A damn shame, and I still think multiple people should be held liable for negligent manslaughter.
The probable cause is that he attempted to maintain a positive rate of climb just out of high ground effect at a Vso pitch attitude and airspeed. Administrator, school, instructor, and finally student or licensed pilot...pilots we are going to have to have a come to Jesus moment with what the primary objective is here. Do we really want to maintain a positive rate of climb while climbing through high ground effect slower than Vso with thousands of feet of runway ahead? On takeoff we are, and will be for a few minutes, too low to recover from inadvertent stall. The critical angle of attack is not what causes stall, it is when stall happens. Pilots cause stall by pulling back on the yoke. This pilot stalled by attempting to maintain the positive rate of climb he had in ground effect when climbing above ground effect at less than Vso, the out of ground effect stall airspeed. Notice the mush prior to stall as he gets into the out of ground effect height. We don't have to get up that quickly. We are not an airliner. We have no jet engines. We have no TOGO button. The airplane will fly with 30 degree flaps and overweight in low ground effect. Yes, that could get someone in trouble except no one uses it. The airplane will fly out of ground effect with 40 degrees of flaps on a standard day at sea level to get certified. Ground effect is there, it is free, and now there are thousands of feet of it. Once we pitch up to fly through it, it is too late if we do not have zoom reserve airspeed. Zoom reserve airspeed is enough airspeed to maneuver safely. Neither Vx nor Vy are zoom reserve airspeed. Vx and Vy are never appropriate for takeoff or go around on long runways. Using either early in the takeoff, the outcome of the maneuver is always in doubt. Vx or Vy pitch attitude, is appropriate at the obstruction and Vx pitch attitude only if we delay the appropriate Vcc pitch attitude or Vy pitch attitude (short field) to clear the obstruction. Wolfgang knew what he was talking about when he said to try to hit the tree and then zoom over. We cannot zoom over at either Vx or Vy airspeed, only at Vx or Vy pitch attitude with zoom reserve airspeed. Talk to the crop dusters and bush pilots who actually use short fields. So instructors, we are a level below the school and two levels below the administrator. The workaround is to teach your student to stay level in low ground effect to the +5 knots fudge factor in the +or-5 knots allowed by the ACS. Give yourself and your student a fighting chance to survive these poor energy management standards and get that license to learn. And then learn to fly. Read Stick and Rudder for the principles to start with. Pay attention to what the airplane wants to do and the law of the roller coaster and V-speeds will work themselves out.
Jimmy what is zoom reserve airspeed? I have never heard that term "zoom". I have not worked as a GA instructor since 1984 so I am sure things have changed. Thanks, Wayne.
@flower2289 I answered on my laptop extensively and it doesn't show here. I am old and don't understand computers. Anyway the principals of the law of the roller coaster and what the airplane wants to do and zoom reserve airspeed come from Stick and Rudder by Wolfgang Langewiesche in 1941. Briefly he taught the concept of airspeed is altitude and altitude and pointed out that experienced pilots prefer staying level (I add in low ground effect) on takeoff until any obstructions require pitch up with thus developed zoom reserve airspeed. Hopefully the full explanation will come up in time with page numbers and quotes. If not I will rewrite the whole thing.
It came before 1984, Wayne, not after. It came before PTS and later ACS rejected it. It came in 1944 from "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche on page 53. The definition is basically enough airspeed for a steep climb@@flower2289
This is not complicated. Many pilots don't use checklists. He didn't use the checklist. He took off with full flaps. He crashed. Why is this a 23 minute video?
alk.....dude, seriously ?! 🙄 much more to a crash than a one line cause. kinda similar to why NTSB reports can be 200 pages. theres a story to tell that involves much more, as well as commentary (which most of us very much appreciate). the time it took you to type out that completely unecessary , salty azz comment , you could have been 3 minutes deep into the next video had you just kept it moving........
737 pilot here, not in USA.
You analyzing this kind of videos will help you A LOT in your career as a pilot.
Some people study only to pass exams, others study to be professionals. You are a pro. Love your channel Munden. Keep the good work.
@@jigonesa this comment meant a lot to me. Thank you so much.
Analysis becomes understanding, and a lot of times you uncover many things in the course of the investigation that you didn’t know or weren’t exposed to correctly before. I did an in-depth review on a Lancair crash for college a few years back, and uncovered things that weren’t even fully explored in the NTSB report. Same goes for the FlyOn helicopter crash that killed 5 in the Hudson River a handful of years ago. It’s crazy what you learn through others’ mistakes.
The best motivation to learn is wanting to stay alive.
I hate to admit this, but when I was teaching full time and had a discovery flight student, I would perform a quick walk-around, make sure the oil and fuel was good. Then I would do my safety briefing to the passenger and teach them about how the doors windows, and seatbelts work. Then I would start the engine, and off we would go. I usually had been flying that same plane all morning so my walk around was very brief. I’d skip the run up and flight control checks as they’d already been done at least twice that day. I had the checklist memorized, so I never used one. I was about as complacent as a 500 hour part 61 CFI could be. It’s a wonder nothing bad ever happened. It certainly could’ve. I got lucky. Do not be like me. I’ve learned from my mistakes and take it much more seriously now. The airlines have really drilled the flows and checklists into me. I feel naked not to use them now.
My guess is he did the walk around with the flaps down, got in, started up, and completely forgot they were down. He didn’t run a checklist, or a flow, or even look outside. Probably just complacent and sent it!
Integrity and honesty is what passes on some important lessons. Kudos for stepping up and saying "Hey I am prone to this as well." I am too and I too have made mistakes. I usually catch them because I push myself to stay on that checklist. However, sometimes you don't catch it until you have a moment to reflect on the flight. A thing I do and say before any intro/discovery flight is "Everything in aviation has a checklist to save our bacon." Sounds silly, but it reinforces the act of actually using and following it as I have them follow me around on the preflight.
@ thanks. That’s a good quote. Using it as a mantra to refocus on the important things is really smart.
$80 for discovery flights these days. pretty cheap considering inflation but when I did mine, it was $20 (back in the late 90s) and it was great. my instructor and I did the pre-flight at the school hangar as part of the teaching experience and once all was clear, he had me do everything from startup, taxi, takeoff, and on. he, of course, took the radio. my 30 minutes started when the wheels left the runway. he gave me clear instructions on everything and never touched the controls. even on landing. it was so easy. I wish I'd been able to afford completing the course. btw, my discovery flight was also in a Cessna 172 but it was a Skyhawk. very nice plane to fly.
Mine was almost $200.
My first thought when they impacted was "Yeah that's definitely 3 fatalities." It still amazes me they weren't dead on impact.
30 degree flaps is too much drag. I went on a flight with two friends one time and we all weighed about the same as these guys and it was a C172 also. But I opted to fly with a half tank of fuel. And gee, I set the flaps to 10!!
Pilot and 2 passengers in a 172S, eh? With full fuel and two passengers being overweight themselves, that easily pushes the gross weight over the 2550 max. Flaps 30 is crazy, I don't know why the pilot didn't put it at 0 or 10. No wonder the plane pitched way up. Checklist checklist checklist, nobody is above using them.
Edit: To clarify, not saying two people on this flight were actually overweight, I don't know. Just generally speaking for this aircraft model, two of three people on board being overweight can easily push past the max gross weight if the fuel is full, too. Even with nothing in the baggage compartment.
The Cessna flap switches are incredibly poor-small and electrically powered, making it easy to see why someone might miss adjusting the flaps. In contrast, Piper aircraft have a much better system: the large lever, when fully raised, clearly indicates that the flaps are fully extended. Glad I only have 3 hours in a Cessna
@@abdimaliksharif1586 That claim is just absurd. There are no situations where someone accidentally deploys the flaps on a C-172, as the flap switch is notched. Also, a final flight control check and visual look around before take off would have quickly reveled the flaps being down.
This was a pilot mistake all around, nothing more, nothing less.
@@redbaron6805 cessnas are still trash, no need to defend my friend. There were times where i wanted 10 degrees of flaps and i got full flaps instead due to a gust of wind. you can call that pilot error but its design error too.
@@abdimaliksharif1586 That claim is facepalm stupid it deserves an entirely new category. There is a reason the C-172 is the most produced aircraft of all time, and is the #1 trainer for pilots for multiple decades already.
Once you graduate from kite flying, you will understand...
Yikes
The thing about adjusting trim with the stall warning blaring tells me a lack of understanding by the pilot. It makes me wonder how he passed a CFI oral.
"HOW TO INTENTIONALLY CRASH A CESSNA 172" should have been the title.
The c172 with full fuel is a 2 + 2 plane. The +2 is small kids or minimal luggage.
I'm guessing an aft CG problem. Pilot claims they pitched the nose forward. They're either lying or the aft CG overload prevented that nose pitch forward.
Flaps 30 on takeoff is insane. Youd never miss that if youre reading checklists. I used to read my checklists out loud even if I was by myself just to be sure I skipping anything.
As soon as I saw there were 3 people onboard, I figured it was likely overweight, especially it was full fueled..
Yep....same errors in N9926Q...pilot crashed 😢..video on TH-cam
That's my old home airport. You can't tie your shoes in 30 minutes at ADS. I think you're right on that they were rushing.
I realize this may be a selfish request but it would be cool if you made a aviation for dummies video (if you haven’t already), I say that cuz I know jack squat about aviation but I’m extremely fascinated by it and I’d love to be taught by you specifically, I can’t pin point it just yet but they way you teach and explain is ear catching and just plain phenomenal and I’d love to hear more, especially the basics, and bravo sir, this Channel makes me want to feel the euphoria of taking the the skies
Awsome Job, I appreciate your hard work and commitment.
@@maxracing1777 thank you so much
Hey bro I just came across your channel. Nice analysis videos. This as you said was very preventable. Aviation is not something to be rushed, checklist checklist checklist identify verify. I subbed you, greetings from the Philippines!
Welcome aboard!
If your in a tight turnaround situation then critical items can b typed out on a small sheet and stuck to the dash.....
I've seen this happen a number of times. To do the preflight you lower the flaps, but then forget to retract them after engine start. I've actually called on a handheld to warn the pilots. If in my relatively limited experience I've seen it multiple times this must happen a lot. It's easy to miss a checklist item especially with distractions like people asking questions (good luck on a sterile cockpit on most discovery flights). Lightly loaded a 172 can sort of kind of take off at 30 degrees of flaps (not 40 as some go to) but no way when over MTOW.
@@flyer617 it’s actually super common.
@@CFIIMunden Yes. I admit that I have accidentally proceeded to taxi with flaps full after startup and only caught it in the runup.
Rushing. Lack of concentration. No excuse.
The way to deal with checklists:
1) check they do not contain errors or BS steps.
2) Dry run the checklist in the cockpit and ensure it makes sense. I find often they do not, so get them fixed.
3) Tell the student to STFU politely while running checklists. Ask them to watch, and ask questions AFTER, when asked.
4) If interrupted during a checklist, stop, deal with the interruption, then START OVER. Do not try and continue part way through.
@paradoxicalcat7173 POH checklists are frequently wrong or inadequate due to changes and updates. So your steps 1 and 2 are important or the checklist loses relevancy. Step 4 is more important than most people realize. Let me relate an example from another field. I created a test checklist for a high voltage battery rack. The techs took a break in the middle of the checklist and when they returned they picked up missing several steps. This resulted in one tech getting across 1200 volts DC, blowing him off a ladder. Luckily he survived this. If interrupted it is very easy to miss critical items.
Hi Brother, thanks for these videos, I am planning to start my PPL and you help me to become a better pilot.
Good luck with your training..it will change your life forever..😊
Best of luck!
not related to this incident but its nice to see a 2lazy2try fan :)
I watched a fatal turnback crash at North Perry (KHWO) just over ten years ago due to a Lancair prop reduction gear failure - I have no idea how they survived that hit - it had to have been the soft dirt - also this looks like the trim was set way to high in the video and that overweight needed at least 10-to-20-gal of fuel to be removed - two major no no's - I have around 350hr in a 172 and the third person weighed over 350lb so we could never fly with the three of us and full tanks in any model 172 -
Texas heat an issue with higher density altitude? Unfortunately you can’t make the flaps mistake when at or near gross weight
That’s how it is at my airport too.
I appreciate greatly that this clip begins with the silent seeing of events...
Yes, it’s better.
Probable cause: distracted pilot during preflight and runup. If they were done at all. Not using a check list.
16:30, i was thinking the same thing to, the checklist says trim set for takeoff if, these checklist are so important
@@AllAboutAuto31 I’ve jumped into planes that had the most absurd nose up trim you can imagine. Not a fan.
Looking at the footage, it doesn't look like they had flaps down. I kind of echo another comment and ask, is it possible the impact caused the flap switch to go towards the floor? Also wondering what the weight of the pilot was. Being that the 172 can seat up to 4 people, this seems like a mistake I could have easily made myself.
@@ChrisGtravels666 it’s definitely possible
Is it possible that the inertia of the hard crash might have pushed the flap lever down? i couldn't tell from the video if the flaps were actually down or not.
It’s possible yeah
Interesting theory
What a pile of lies. It is just short of "I made no mistakes, it was some gravitational anomaly"
Could it be that he extended flaps to 30 for his daily precheck, but then missed to retract them during startup/runup procedures? Just guessing
That would be bizarre as when you check the controls, you would normally glance back and around the plane during runup. Leaving the flaps down at 30 degrees during takeoff is basically unheard of. It is a mistake that really shouldn't be possible to happen if someone did even elementary checks before takeoff.
@redbaron6805 Yet I am pretty sure he somehow missed it and didnt leave flaps 30 deliberately. So the question is how and why he made this mistake, bizarre or not 🙂
@@kbg990 It is a mystery for sure. I got over 200 hours in a C-172 and probably 600+ landings, and not a single time did I forget to retract the flaps. We would always retract them as soon as we left the runway, or as soon as we landed on touch and go's.
I made mistakes like anyone else flying the C-172, but flaps were not one of them.
Who knows why, but it surely looks as though he tried to be zoomy and stalled the damn plane. I think if he’d lowered the nose a bit he would have been under control, and that’s always job one. Might have climbed away if the flaps were set properly, or settled back much more slowly if the flaps were over extended.
I can confirm the 172 will BARELY fly or climb full fuel two pax. I flew my brother in-law and girlfriend at the time and flew with quarter tanks and i was behind the O-300 at 2500 DA, Barely hilding 250FPM. luckily you can climb at that rate and be fine in texas.
im just wondering, why specifically in texas? do you have to climb faster in other places?
@Crazyclay78YT flat and nothing to hit
@@BTenold oh so just like where i live then, IL 😂😂
Right rudder and aileron tells you everything!
Crazy lucky to live. Crashing both on exposed dirt as well as landing on the wing and rolling like that saved them. Incredibly fortunate, glad they got away with one there.
Is it also possible that the two passengers both lied about their weights on the reservation, giving him incorrect data for his weight and balance that he supposedly did before they arrived? I used to have to card people at a bar/restaurant, and you'd be surprised at the number of people whose drivers license says they're at least 50 lbs lighter than they are when they're dressed to go out partying--both male AND female.
But it seems to me that this pilot didn't even think about the fact that his two passengers' weights together add up to a huge percentage of the maximum full-fuel payload of 560 lbs; unless he only weighs
@@SerebroWD that’s true that they could have lied or been super far off. I didn’t even think about that.
Do they have scales at these places?
@@dipndaVicmy flight school has a scale for this exact reason. It’s right outside the front door
Flaps extended for preflight and never reset for takeoff?
Likely.
Random fact. They survived and what helped their survival is the airplane was equipped with seatbelt airbags also in the report.
If we could get these things to stop catching fire on impact, survival rates will go way up
Agreed.
I would like to see pictures of the passengers and where were they sitting?
With 30 flap it lifted early, then he tried for normal climb attitude. Is flap lever on this plane the sort where you have to stop it at the angle you want. He could have been setting for 10, got distracted, but stopped at 30, didn't visually check.
Of course the impact could have caused a hand or arm flayed and caught the flap lever.
Can you explain how one does a runup while taxiing? Do you just ride the brakes or something?
@@aviation_nut You don’t lol. It’s a terrible idea.
@@CFIIMunden oh I know it's a terrible idea. I'm not asking because it'd be something I'd do. I'm asking because I can't figure out how it's even physically possible.
This looked like a classic aft cg or in-place rudder lock
Did this accident end the CFIs flight career? I wonder is he ever got back up in an airplane?
Substantial damage? Aircraft destroyed? Is not the total destruction of a aircraft called a hull loss?
I think he got confused by the position of the flap lever and he though they were fully up when they were fully down. Couple that with being overweight and possibly out of CofG they were doomed....Flying....Great when it works bad when it doesn't.
It's no accident, It was an experimental test flight. . . All check list items modified from standard, Results?
Use established data and criteria as a pilot in command
Makes you Leary of passengers sitting upfront.
Awesome channel 👍
172s HAAAATEEE extra passengers, I took off with 4 1 time 30 pounds over weight and I had to roll that bitch up to about 80 kts before I felt comfortable climbing out, and I made sure our departure and destination had looooong runways just incase something I didn’t like happened.
This feel like just pure negligence.
well hopefully that instructor realizes now he/she has no business flying let alone teaching and should find a different career before he/she kills someone.
Okay.. I'm just a student pilot (soon to take his PPL Check Ride) and as soon as I heard 30 degrees of flaps I thought "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!?!?!?".
They survived? Wow...
Somehow. A miracle.
My take away here is a rushed carrier instructor rushing there way up the ladder glossing over basic aviation lore to bigger things. And it could also be said of there instructors too. What ever happened to old school methods of teaching!
Maybe rushed maybe not. I like flows ONLY if followed up with checklist. It's evident, he did not use the checklist or did a weight and balance. I think the additional info on weight and balance was just fluff, just my opinion.
Flaps lifted the plane up early. However, we know he didn't use the checklist so trim was probably out of wack. I'm not suggesting this but we would use FAST in recurrent (simulator) for quick takeoff......Flaps Set, Airspeed Set, Speed Break Up, and Trim Set. These are major items on a jet.
Moral of the story, use the checklist, do a wt/bal, and don't get in a hurry!!!!!!
@@skyjakeX exactly. Flows to back up the checklist.
Very lucky- we have seen similar in the past and fatalities.
I was working on my commercial at this very same airport in a Cessna 172/G1000. Part of the before takeoff checks included autopilot and trim. I had a runaway trim and on takeoff the aircraft just popped off the runway way sooner then I would expect. Fortunately, I resorted to treating the takeoff as a soft-field, and pushed the yoke forward, with considerable force, to keep the aircraft in ground effect until sufficient airspeed to climb out. I should have aborted the takeoff, but everything happened so fast.
😂. Keep dreaming
Not resetting trim has killed a few pilots.
From your description of the discovery flight you took looking for other schools the instructor was incompetent and unqualified! This is precisely the problem! Instead of helping correct the issue we have with young incompetent instructors just hour building we just kinda brush it off as "oh, I guess the instructor was rushed and i understand because they are rushed quite frequently to do these discovery flights ". This is totally unacceptable!!! As you stated, a student pilot should develop a flow check, and absolutely under no circumstances deviate from this procedure! Why do we keep discussing this same subject over and over but no actions are taken?? This has to stop ! The fact that we so many incompetent dangerous instructors out there means we also have too many incompetent DPEs or these cfis would never get certified! We already have a serious problem with the lack of enough DPEs to handle this ridiculous push for more pilots to fill this imaginary pilot shortage. I enjoy your content and please understand I'm not focusing this rant and frustration towards you personally but we have a serious problem. Some of these crashes need to be plastered all over the news on TV and news sites all over the world to get someone's attention. One accident in particular that ,in my eyes, does not get enough attention, is the tragic loss of Jenny Blaylock and her father. She's the young lady with the TN Flygirl channel. This accident was swept under the rug as far as I'm concerned and here's why I say this. I live in TN not far from where she regularly operated and where the crash occurred but didn't even know that this happened until months afterwards. I'm constantly on flying related social media channels and networks because I'm an avid pilot and do nothing but live for aviation. If this accident was taken seriously everyone in the country should have at least learned about it in a week or so. I had never heard of her or her channel period before the crash. If you aren't aware of the details of this crash, look into it . Any instructor that had any flight time with Jenny should at the very least stripped of all teaching privileges for life and in opinion grounded for life . Even anyone at the airport where she operated should be ashamed that they did not scream from the top of there lungs that this young lady was 100% unqualified to fly PIC and absolutely was not capable of of safely owning and flying a complex aircraft. She recorded all her flights on video for the whole world to see and no one stepped up and said " wait a minute, this girl is dangerous and has absolutely no business flying PIC" I'm shocked that our industry is not screaming from the hills about the level of incompetence involved with anyone associated with her and her flying adventures. Someone should have spoken up and saved her and her father's lives. I realize this is a long rant but I'm passionate about safety and I hope ti get more involved in raising awareness to the issues we have in our training philosophies as a whole. I'm afraid we've created a monster of a problem that will take ten years to change simply because the FAA moves as fast as a snail . Let me finish up by saying , I'm not bashing ALL young pilots building hours. But I will say and do believe we have way too many that simply become cfis because in all honesty, it's the quickest and easiest way to rack up those hours . This is a lazy attitude that will get people hurt . Thank you for the videos and keep up the good work!
I totally agree with you. We have a massive problem in our system that is leading to a huge amount of GA accident. I’m hoping to make this videos in order to teach lessons and learn from the mistakes that our fellow pilots have made. Thank you for the comment and I definitely understand your frustration.
Bureaucracy is useful to get day to day things done, but also is slow as you mention. Instructors are human as are students and yes, the school administration and even the administrator. Harry Truman said, "The buck stops here." He was a good leader who took responsibility for everything that happened or failed to happen in his Artillery Battery in WWI. Jesus said to give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and we have to honor our leadership in aviation. They do a lot of good, but as we go down in the system and get closer to the problems we also have less influence. There are self-serving instructors, but very few in my sixty eight years in aviation. Most are very dedicated to teaching flying and their students. They have very clear, well written, orders from the very top, however called Airmen Certification Standards. I work with local instructors attempting to teach what we call "workarounds" in another bureaucracy, The Army. I know I can push Wolfgang's law of the roller coaster and zoom reserve airspeed before any pitch up only so far, but young instructors can encourage their students to take advantage of the +or- flexibility in V-speeds to takeoff a little faster, get a little faster before pitch up for positive rate of climb on go around, and land a little slower. Yes, accidents eventually send messages even to general aviation. How long would airlines be able to operate with such poor energy management procedures? Anyway hang in there. Give them hell (the administrators who set the standards) Harry. Don't beat up on the troops.
I completely agree! One video with an EXTREMELY dangerous CFI was deleted. Part of the cover-up, but I watched it before it got removed. Tons if comments calling for him to be identified and permanently grounded.
The real sad thing is TN Flygirl was aware her training was inadequate, but for some reason felt unable to speak up. I suspect she may have tried to complain in the past but got shutdown by a wall of silence.
She did actually fire her CFI because of YT comments (yes, really) but it seems some bad habits were not undone.
She really needed, and would have benefitted from, starting from scratch. She actually had a lot of knowledge, but had never developed the skills to apply them in the cockpit.
A damn shame, and I still think multiple people should be held liable for negligent manslaughter.
Praise the Lord they survived
Veer left? Ummm no you stalled and dropped a wing.
No NTDB. Follow DTSB)
The entire vides is assumptions.
Holy shit they survived????
I can’t believe it
The probable cause is that he attempted to maintain a positive rate of climb just out of high ground effect at a Vso pitch attitude and airspeed. Administrator, school, instructor, and finally student or licensed pilot...pilots we are going to have to have a come to Jesus moment with what the primary objective is here. Do we really want to maintain a positive rate of climb while climbing through high ground effect slower than Vso with thousands of feet of runway ahead? On takeoff we are, and will be for a few minutes, too low to recover from inadvertent stall. The critical angle of attack is not what causes stall, it is when stall happens. Pilots cause stall by pulling back on the yoke. This pilot stalled by attempting to maintain the positive rate of climb he had in ground effect when climbing above ground effect at less than Vso, the out of ground effect stall airspeed. Notice the mush prior to stall as he gets into the out of ground effect height. We don't have to get up that quickly. We are not an airliner. We have no jet engines. We have no TOGO button.
The airplane will fly with 30 degree flaps and overweight in low ground effect. Yes, that could get someone in trouble except no one uses it. The airplane will fly out of ground effect with 40 degrees of flaps on a standard day at sea level to get certified. Ground effect is there, it is free, and now there are thousands of feet of it. Once we pitch up to fly through it, it is too late if we do not have zoom reserve airspeed. Zoom reserve airspeed is enough airspeed to maneuver safely. Neither Vx nor Vy are zoom reserve airspeed. Vx and Vy are never appropriate for takeoff or go around on long runways. Using either early in the takeoff, the outcome of the maneuver is always in doubt. Vx or Vy pitch attitude, is appropriate at the obstruction and Vx pitch attitude only if we delay the appropriate Vcc pitch attitude or Vy pitch attitude (short field) to clear the obstruction. Wolfgang knew what he was talking about when he said to try to hit the tree and then zoom over. We cannot zoom over at either Vx or Vy airspeed, only at Vx or Vy pitch attitude with zoom reserve airspeed. Talk to the crop dusters and bush pilots who actually use short fields.
So instructors, we are a level below the school and two levels below the administrator. The workaround is to teach your student to stay level in low ground effect to the +5 knots fudge factor in the +or-5 knots allowed by the ACS. Give yourself and your student a fighting chance to survive these poor energy management standards and get that license to learn. And then learn to fly. Read Stick and Rudder for the principles to start with. Pay attention to what the airplane wants to do and the law of the roller coaster and V-speeds will work themselves out.
Jimmy what is zoom reserve airspeed? I have never heard that term "zoom". I have not worked as a GA instructor since 1984 so I am sure things have changed. Thanks, Wayne.
@flower2289 I answered on my laptop extensively and it doesn't show here. I am old and don't understand computers. Anyway the principals of the law of the roller coaster and what the airplane wants to do and zoom reserve airspeed come from Stick and Rudder by Wolfgang Langewiesche in 1941. Briefly he taught the concept of airspeed is altitude and altitude and pointed out that experienced pilots prefer staying level (I add in low ground effect) on takeoff until any obstructions require pitch up with thus developed zoom reserve airspeed. Hopefully the full explanation will come up in time with page numbers and quotes. If not I will rewrite the whole thing.
@@flower2289 It came from Stick and Rudder by Wolfgang Langewiesche in 1944 before PTS or ACS.
It came before 1984, Wayne, not after. It came before PTS and later ACS rejected it. It came in 1944 from "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche on page 53. The definition is basically enough airspeed for a steep climb@@flower2289
@ OK Thanks
...mumble on air; must be tuff.
😬
Hey brother, I sent you an email regarding study notes, let me know if you got it.
Also this video is insane. Probably spatial disorientation.
I got it thank you I’ll respond soon here.
A CFI on a clear sunny day is not going to have spatial disorientation, the plane stalled, that was the issue.
This is not complicated. Many pilots don't use checklists. He didn't use the checklist. He took off with full flaps. He crashed. Why is this a 23 minute video?
Thanks for watching!
alk.....dude, seriously ?! 🙄 much more to a crash than a one line cause. kinda similar to why NTSB reports can be 200 pages. theres a story to tell that involves much more, as well as commentary (which most of us very much appreciate). the time it took you to type out that completely unecessary , salty azz comment , you could have been 3 minutes deep into the next video had you just kept it moving........