@@starsfalldown1234567 they make really great Skyrim mods that expand a lot of NPCs, plus they’re working on a massive quest mod, DLC sized, which is incredibly fun
well, actually considering Taash's nature it's only natural that she unload this kind of stuff rapidly and in inappropriate time, because she's nervous about it and still afraid of Tama's reaction. THIS was actually good. But the fact we've got a team of masterful professor of necromancy, brilliant detective, hardened in war with demons scout and a f*cking immature teenager, who can breath fire... What the hell... But yeah, comparing to Dorian (or any companion in DA:I) there's only 1 or 2 really explored companions, others are hollow and sometimes just straight up fillers
I know right? Taash is literally so manipulative. "No, I don't like aqun-athlok, I like non-binary" so childish. What's next? Gonna call her mom a bigot if she doesn't comply??
" i didn't know you were gay" " Well, it's not like i introduce myself that way "HeLlO mY nAmE iS dOrIAn, i LiKe MeN" maybe i should start, seems like that's what everyone cares about these days" -my favourite bit of dialogue in the whole mission
@@thesunisup_ someone forcing Bioware to do that, that's what it is probably. Like Bl Rck saying that they'll stop financing them. So they can only use aesopian language.
@junkolover9518 no one forced anyone in bioware. Even if they had been forced to implement certain things, HOW they're implemented is the key to quality. Looking at the whole overall writing quality of the game it's very clear this is the team's fault, especially that gendermancer director's. This had little to do with outside influence. They were hardly told how to write the dialogue word for word.
@@thesunisup_I can say the same thing about Inquisition. Sten says women can't be men in Origins. Then Iron Bull is like well we have special women who take on men's roles. Yea no..
Even the term "non-binary" seems out of place and too modern. Dorian didn't say he was gay, he said he "liked men." Krem wasn't called "trans," Krem was just called a man, and Bull said the Qun had a special term for people like Krem. Word choice ensured that they didn't feel out of place. A character in a Medieval fantasy using the term "non-binary" feels VERY out of place.
And they might as well be not speaking english at all. If elves and dwarves predated humans then their language may be similar to them which is very far from english yet here we are "non-binary".
Yeah retcon the whole Qun for the sake of diversity. The Qun has no words for Trans or other kind of sexual preferenzes. If you are not in the norm of the Qun,you are a Tal-Vashot and we saw in DA2 what happens to them.
Didn't the mom say their own people have a word that is at least inclusive of that? Maybe more broad, but non-binary would fit under what the mom said, but she got yelled at for saying it.
@@johnnobon that cause those just want power over others and the people with real power hate the target people culture regition nation etc let get away with it cause the ideology harms the target why you think this crap has been unchallage for this long and any one fighting it are shut down
I love it when my medieval fantasy character uses real-world contemporary identitarian language to refer themselves. It doesn't feel deeply weird at all.
Do you... think these words dont exist in their universe? Or? Do you not know people use words to describe themselves? Are you angry because a part of someone's identity is different from some sort of faux norm you have constructed in your head? In a world of evolving individuals, we dont have to beat around a bush anymore. We just tell you the bush needs to be beaten.
thats what I was kinda trying to think about. like we can have fantasy settings with our contemporary problems, so why does it feel off? Is it the specific word "non-binary" that breaks the immersion? Because I think thats interesting. Like we could then instead had the character be like "I prefer neither to be labeled as male or female" and leave it at that or make up a fantasy word for that but it seems ok to use modern words and phrases that are more established. So it makes me think of how new/contemporary can language be in a fantasy work like this and not have it feel, "off"?
@@connerallen934 It's the dissonance imo. Krem never said "I'm trans", Dorian never said "I'm gay", they used language that fits in with the rest of the setting to describe their identities (and Thedas doesn't have a LGBT+ rights movement, so presumably little in the way of discussion of this kind of thing). Krem just says "I'm non-binary".
Notice how the Dorian scene was directed. Dorian walks from side to side, looks on the floor, hangs his head, looks back, poins his finger. And it was 10 years ago.
The more I see this Taash scene, the more it annoys me that her mother actually invites sympathy and is somewhat well written, where almost nothing else in the entire game is. Calling herself an inadequate mother due to her role and training as she does is actually a very Qunari thing to say. There's this whole arc within her character where she realises the damage she's done to Taash by going against the Qun and allowing this attitude to fester.
you don't need to be gay to empathize with a son having that relationship with their father. taash seems to act like a teenager so its harder to empathize with them
When Dorian was announced I was very against it, it felt like more forced inclusivity but damn that character was really well done and it actually made me more tolerant of characters like him. And hell, even his explanation about slavery gave me pause.
@@azahel542 Because even most people who complain about inclusion aren't against inclusion itself, rather they're against when it feels forced. Dorian is a Tevinter Mage, who happens to be Gay, Taash is a Trans-Person who happens to be Qunari. Dorian works because his's identity isn't dependent on him being Gay. You take that out, and you still have a Tevinter Mage and his opinions & views on the Rustic South.
@JacobiDanielle1 This is the fundamental point of contention, as always. Characters designed to only embody a specific trait first and foremost, with that traut generally being one based on modern sensibilities. That might work in a modern setting (though I'd argue it is jarring even there), but it _definitely_ doesn't work in any other setting.
Yeah they reacted like they're insecure about their own identity and how they live up to their mother's expectations or something. If only they established that first. Oh wait....
@@krasmasov6852 They acted like an immature, irrational, self-victimizing, "The world is against me and they're all evil cause I indulge my sensitivities by choosing to take everything like a personal attack", narcissistic brat.
Deadass bro, I thought Taash’s mom was genuinely curious. She wasn’t attacking the issue, she just wanted to understand, and Taash was a passive aggressive dick about it
One is reasonable anger towards a parent who sought to control their child. The other is a child throwing a tantrum at a mother who just wants to understand.
It's more of a fear response. Imagine possibly getting oppressed by your parent. Is it more than it had to be? Yes. But it's genuinely coming from a guarded place of "I have to be ready for anything". I am fine with Taash being wrong with the lashing out but ask why Taash is guarded than "why this scene is so awkward".
@@lepi8587 Taash is in their early 20's. Around the same age as Sera in DAI. Not a child, but young enough to still be frustrated as they try to navigate who they are.
@@nozomi90first off, it's a medieval fantasy setting- people mature slower today because we have things easy and don't need to learn as early. People in this kind of setting would be fighting and working by 15-16, so 20 is more akin to today's 30. And even with today's age of maturation you still should NOT be acting like this. I wouldn't even think of talking to my parents like this when they're actually showing signs of trying to understand and have expressed actual care for me. If you act like this in early to mid 20's you should be ashamed of yourself.
I think that the reason Dorian's story was so well recieved is you don't have to be LGBT to relate to it. A noble kid who idolized his dad and whose dad loved him. Then he matured and got told that he's free to love who he wants to, but he still has to fulfill his dynastic duties - marry who will be picked for him and reproduce. Just as the dad did, he himself despised his wife, but still did his duty. But the boy chose differently and the loving reformer father suddenly decided to do the unthinkable and change his sons mind through an evil ritual, massive risks be damned. So the boy ran away. A decade later, the father understands just how much he messed up and hurt his son, and only wants to see him again. The fact that Dorian is gay is an integral part of the story, but the story would work even if he weren't. Because it's not a gay story, it's a human story.
The reason Dorian's story is well-recieved (now) is because you have a worse example. Dorian's story sucked too. I despised it then and it's only gotten worse. You have a billion interesting things to do with you characters and you reduce the gay one to being gay and crying about their dad. Ridiculously lame, the only difference is the LGBT+ nonsense has gotten worse.
@@LevattWolfheart The being gay part of his story wasn’t the main focus imo. I always felt it was about making teventer a better place. He relationship with Alexi and his father all tied back to the issue with the country. The use of blood magic and nepotism. The betrayals and manipulations. It’s part of the reason he leaves at the end to become a magister. Also Dorian was well received. It was Krem who was disliked. Her story about being trans mulan just didn’t work.
And some people can be with Dorian, my dad try to me to study engineering, and I want to go to the law school, my dad try to sabotage and use his influence to not go to law school, cut the money he gave me, years later he apologize and be a father again to me, hurts a lot.
Dorian is relatable because even though the conflict is about his sexuality, you could replace that with any major life choice and it would still work. I don't like dragon age inquisition for a lot of reasons, but thr writing wasn't one of them. The characters are great
Yeah, because non-binary cr4p isn't really a thing like being gay or trans, you still dress the same way, you can still be heterosexual, so what's the big deal about it while gay and trans really get hate and a hard life? Non binary are just pretending they have a problem to become more interesting to other people while actually showing they're sexist and they believe stereotypes are real. I hate pink, that means I'm non binary? No, I'm just a woman who hates pink and don't fit into patriarchal roles. When I started playing I hoped Tash was trans instead she is just a silly child with no real problems
It's so damning that Rook has basically no effect on the outcome. The Inquisitor can actively push Dorian to seek reconciliation or not and it affects him very differently. I've done both and it makes their reconciliation way more meaningful when I know that there was a choice. The NB convo is just happening in Rook's presence and they can't back Taash up or convince Taash to listen instead of just lashing out. Rook is a PC that acts more like an NPC when it matters most.
Best part about the Dorian bit is, he does have all the agency. It's his story, but like any good friend, you can encourage his actions. It's like somebody actually knew how to write this as a third-party and not as a rant.
In VG Rook is literally the Michael Jackson eating popcorn meme as events happen in front of them. And then there's no option to call her out on her behaviour. The writers assume the audience is automatically on Taash's side. With Dorian, you can use your judgement and encourage Dorian to reconcile or push him to walk away.
@splintergectornathan9045 exactly. There's zero compassion for the mum in this situation. She clearly has a strained relationship with her daughter and struggles to understand her. Having dinner together is a way to help bridge the divide, and Taash just aggressively info dumps a whole new identity on her, blind-siding her and attacks her mother for asking questions she obviously going to have because she assumes she's "rejecting" her feelings.
Reminder that Dragon Age HAS been able to write and organically introduce a trans character, Krem, in the past, which means there is NO excuse as to why they should have struggled with Taash so much. Just pure laziness.
Krem wasn't trans? she was just gay and Bull even said women/men who feel they are born different gender are considered that way, in that convo Bull said "you are a man" as a compliment
@@JenIsHungry To be fair to Inquisition, I don't think there was a way to have inserted a trans character in a year like 2014 that wouldn't have inveitably been considered at least a little awkward. A lot of people didn't even know what a trans person was at the time, so there's not much they could have done differently to make it less weird.
What baffles me is the mom even suggested a word for it that fit? She didn’t deny her kid, just tried to understand? But I guess she was supposed to be a robot that only had the same variety in dialogue they gave Rook: positive affirmation or else.
It's a very ironic scene in that it establishes that "non-binary" doesn't exist in the world of Thedas in any meaningful way, and that Taash has little more understanding of the label than who she's talking to, and certainly less empathy. Speak the magic words as I tell them to you, or be shunned. Very unfortunate writing decisions.
Technically speaking is not the right term either, the term used by Taash's mother is closer to transgenderism than non-binarity, which isn't the case. However, much like Dorian's "I preffer the company of men" and let the audience be smart to infer he's gay instead of using modern-coined terminology, Taash could've used the same language to let their mother know they don't identify within gender binarity constructs, a thing that's taboo within the Qun's gender strict viewpoint but told to someone that by all accounts is willing to hear and critique as unbiased as possible while accepting personal accountability for her parental abscense. All of this without considering Taash's tantrum or the game's demand to always side with them no questions asked. By all means, the writting is witless, in spite of veteran writters from previous Dragon Age games being involved.
@@diegosaez4885only one small disagreement. Going by the description, the term could be used to describe transgender, or non binary, even though it's clearly meant to be used for transgender
I think the term that their mom is using is more of an umbrella term than anything else. there could be subsets of it because that's how Qunlat's language functions
Even when the mom said that calmly, Taash was like “Why can’t you just be happy for me?!” What the fuck..? That is not even a retaliation, that’s just lashing out. It’s like the writer just writes “Taash disagrees with the mom of using the term that fits, okay, why? Because fuck her that’s why, no retaliation on how those two are different things, no, just no, she’s wrong, Taash is right..”
It seems strange somehow for a character in a fantasy game to use the term non-binary. There have been people throughout history who didn’t consider themselves male or female, but that specific term feels very modern. Dorian doesn’t call himself gay, he just says he prefers men. Also his anger at his father feels a lot more earned lol. The Veilguard convo feels so awkward and rushed.
Exactly. Taash's mother even uses a specific term inuniverse that could very well describe a non-binary character but apparently Taash isn't happy with that
@@VIixIXine She used the phrase “gender given to them at birth”, not “gender assigned at birth”. It looks like a tiny difference but it does somehow flow better and feel more in universe-y than the latter. Too bad Taash had to go and throw an entire fridge at it barely a few seconds later.
Dorian's story is so much more compelling because it is not *just* about his sexuality. No it's bigger, it's about expectations and appearences, about an overbearing family that demands perfection and percieved his homosexuality as an imperfection that must be stamped out. And of course, it features two adults attempting to reconcile rather than one adult being berated by a child.
1: I’m non binary 2: we have a term for that 1: no fuck you 2: your’re misunderstanding 1: no fuck you I want to fight and be mad 2: sorry I caused a problem. Ill leave 1: *sits angrily* Literally seemed like she was trying to be understanding. Weird writing
it's so confusing, like were they two writers between Taash and her mum or what?? because her mum sounds like she genuinely just doesn't know wtf she's talking about and seems very rational and understanding, but Taash is throwing a fit and her mum just "i know this mood, i'll dip" right out of there
It’s the way these idiots see the world. They’re perpetually the victim, even if someone is agreeing with them on everything. It has less to do with gender identity and more to do with narcissism.
Yeah and the only responses you can make to traash is to paint the mother in bad light. She just seems confused to me and Traash is acting like an asshole. Mother even suggests Qun sayings for it which would be more fitting for a medievil fantasy game than 'non-binary' And Traash just throws a fit. I dont like Traash at all.
Yeah cause of course attempting to introduce 21st century concepts and words that didn't even exist to 15th century people is gonna be a little confusing for them. Somebody had to write this crap.
@@TheRealWalterClementsIt's not even that. As Taash's mother said in this very video, the Qunari already have a word for "transgender", the basis of understanding is *there* What Veilguard does is much worse and universal than trying to introduce foreign concepts as if they were common place: it says there's no room for growing and learning. The people in your life need to act with the utmost nonchalance to using a new name or identity for you, and if they don't you're entitled to scream at them and cut them out of your life, even if they're just asking questions or are trying to relate to you in terms that aren't LGBT+ adjacent.
She was legit like, "Oh yeah, we have people who don't conform to gender in our culture!" straight-up trying to make her child feel normal and she just freaked out. What even was that.
Just got to Taash's part and it felt so.... artificial? I remember reading that Dorian's personal quest was inspired in David Gaider's (the main writter for the first three games) own relation with his father and it was so genuine and heartfelt, wheter or not you personaly relate or just feel empathy for Dorian himself. Taash.... feels more like a checklist
When people talk about "woke writing" they're trying to articulate that feeling you had. One rule that these writers follow is this (fill in the blank with whatever identity group the writer is writing about) " Nothing bad can ever happen to a ___ character because they are ____." This is terrible writing because it basically makes any character development impossible. All stories rely on conflict, and conflict is the first thing to go in woke writing.
exactly! filling the blank without even trying to make sense of it. This writing feels so empty , like everyone worked alone without any feedback or debate. i laughed so hard when I hear "non binary". like.. I don't care if you are, but where is the effort to use a term that makes sense to the fantasy word. Why the writers didn't have the effort to paraphrase it? Time? EA was against It? Only time will tell
It's pretty close to the way my talk with my mother went when I came out as nonbinary. It's very accurate. Look at it from a different angle: Taash didn't sit down to negotiate, simply to state what they already knew to be true. And from their perspective, their mother didn't listen and tried to push in her preconceived ideas into the conversation (with Aqun-Athok being the rough equivalent of "transsexual", an outdated and inaccurate term). Even after repeating themselves multiple times. And I believe Taash is already being characterized as blunt and impulsive afaik, so this all makes sense. I believe the scene is simply demanding too much from the player. You need to be familiar with real world and in-lore terminology, with lived realities of nonbinary people specifically AND you need to have the media literacy to connect the dots. That's a lot. Otherwise, you will automatically stand on the side of Taash's mother who obviously doesn't even know what she did wrong. And she did say hurtful things, but it's not really revealed why they are hurtful. Which is also accurate, because as a nonbinary child, you really don't want to engage with that conversation at this point. I feel like there is something missing here. A scene either before or after this conversation that helps explaining the dynamic.
self insert dialogs from unskilled amateurs vs actual authors. one tried to tell a story while the other tried to oppress their own insecurities onto audience, the difference and the intention is obvious as day an night
Anyone else took notice how Dorian's actual dialoge with his father is kept private? You know, because it's a family business. We are there to make sure he is safe, give him courage and keep in check that this whole family matter doesn't spiral out to some political clusterfuck with Tevinter, but the talk is theirs. With Traash it's like "Hi mom, this is my boss, he will now listen to me coming out, anyway I'm non-binary, so fuck you. You may nod approvingly now, boss." I mean, who the fuck does that?
If you dont do her quest during one of the meetings of the veilguard someone will straight up stop the meeting to announce Taash's new pronouns. Its so jarring and stupid.
It's one of these things you bring a friend for, to back you up so you don't appear more unreasonable than you need to. "I don't feel like either gender, I'm different" is a hard sell to a parent that has seen you acting out many times before.
Dorian was such a well written character, his orientation was an aside. The fact that you could still flirt as a Female Inquisitor and he'd play along regardless. Kudos to the writers for giving Dorian the charm and humanity he had that was delivered by the immaculate Ramon Tikaram.
Damn the difference is staggering, I am not even the biggest fan of Inquisition and the writing for Dorian is so much more respectful and better for his character in the world.
you don't need to be gay to empathize with a son having that relationship with their father. taash seems to act like a teenager so its harder to empathize with the,
Well, this video is basically the difference between good and bad writing in a nutshell. Storytelling is two things, there is the story and then there is how you tell it. Veilguard... kinda dropped the ball at both parts. 😒 The whole thing with Dorian also has a really nice in-world background to it. Tevinter's have a thing with magic and bloodlines, and i think the game gave fleshed out that detail well. So nothing of it, felt forced, it meshed well with the story and world.
@@greggreyes6869Taash was clearly a self-insert of some non-binary writer with mommy issues. Taash has little personality beyond those two facts. The mother doesn't even seems that bad from what I have seen, but because she didn't immediately embrace and reassure her child, she's clearly evil and we have to hate her. Taash is also a bully, that also feeds into why players dislike them.
Because Dorian is written as a human being. Capable of anger and making mistakes, but also genuinely still loving and respecting his father. In fact, most of the criticisms he lays are directly against Tevinter. Dorian has a right to be angry, and his dad knows he did wrong. This is as opposed to Tash and her mother, with her mother mostly being confused and trying to understand through the Qun. Also keeping in mind that Dorian's anger is directly related to his father attempting to deny his own sexuality, and perhaps doing something else (there's some veiled implications there). Meanwhile Tash comes across as an angry toddler because mommy dearest misgendered them. Basically, it's a difference between someone writing in a good reason to be angry, a well designed character (I didn't use Dorian much due to his specialization, but he still was one of my favorite characters due to personality), and a conclusion that seems fitting. Versus Tash, who is basically just a mouthpiece for the creator to vent their mom and dad issues
Dorian's father tries to literally stop his gayness with forbidden magic, and Dorian finds the strength to accept his apology. Meanwhile, Taash's mother is slightly confused about her new gender status and gets the 'screw you mom, educating you is not my problem!' treatment. This sounds like something from a book for 13 year olds, and not one of the good ones...
When someone first said that to me I responded with oh that’s nice. But I have no clue what you’re talking about. Then they said and I rolled my eyes and walked off.😂
@@theprinceofrosesandorder That's still debatable, I feel if he uses blood magic to force him to marry a girl it kind of goes against his gayness lol. I guess youre correct that it seems like he would do it if he was asexual or refuse to marry for some other reason as well though so it might no be targeted at his gay identity specifically. He still doesn't accept Dorian's reason not to want to marry that girl and beget heirs to the bloodline and all that
Nothing takes you out of a medieval fantasy RPG more than hearing "Sooo, erm, EXQUEEZE me! I'm non-binary. Totally not a self-insert wink wink! Also mother, erm, you need to stop being such a homophobe." 11/10 writing
the mother is trying to be understanding and supportive while taash is being a angry teen and lashing out for no good reason and the dialog forces you to be all supportive of taash instead of rightfully calling them a fucking asshole
The mom legit just doesn't know what non binary means She's asking 'do you mean your trans?' And Taash seemingly gets pissed her mom doesn't just immediately know what non binary means and is asking so she can understand I feel like they're trying to do a whole 'look at what a bad mom she is', but that's not at all what this is. She just legit wants to know what it means
Remember - Dorian had the strength to do all this despite nobody peeling grapes for him in WEEKS. Ramon Tikaram is a fantastic actor, and he does great work with the (noticeably more nuanced) writing.
The mother straight up came with what might be a lore-friendly version of non-binary instead of using modern terms in a medieval fantasy game, and the girl really just threw a fit at her.
Here's the thing: a lot of people who clip that scene with Taash leave out the bit beforehand where the mom doesn't really know how to be a mom, but rather a scholar. Knowing that context, her cold yet inquisitive response is spot on for her character. All Tassh needed to do was not get overly emotional, explain the difference between non-binary and trans (the lore friendly term the mother used), and their mom most likely would have understood and probably accepted. Instead, Taash flips out for no good reason, and Rook is forced to side with Taash no matter what. Horrid.
@@TheKrossRoads To be fair, in that sense Taash acts like she always has to that point. They are petulant, rude, and demanding. Expecting others to do something they would not do for them, such as demanding people address her as They/Them while simultaneously calling Emmrich a 'death mage' despite him asking very politely not to. They are designed to be annoying and unreasonable. The annoying thing is you can't say anything about their attitude.
Taash's mother gets offended when you get Taash to embrace her Qunari side in order to connect better with her mother. It seems to me like whoever wrote Taash had no clue on how to write character flaws and struggles. Because, to me, even if Taash used the Qunari word, Taash's mom would apparently be upset about it.
Holy shit, you know what? I realize only years later that I never gave a single fuck that Dorian was gay. When I went through this mission and found out what his father did, the only thing on my mind was “Yo, you tried to fucking warp my boys mind, you piece of shit? Let him love who he wants!”. I didn’t see Dorian as the “Gay guy”, I saw him as a person trying to be himself. I backed him up because he was a friend, not the “gay companion”. God, the writing was underrated in inquisition.
The wonders of good writing. These new writers make the character gay/NB as their main character points, then try to tack on traits afterwards, whereas previously they were aware that these people are nuanced and deep that also happen to also be gay, not sole element of their personality.
@@westevez1863 no one in DATV is a new writer as far as i know. The person who wrote Taash had one of the best writing history in Bioware in my opinion (not as good as David Gaider who wrote Dorian and created Dragon Age as a whole, but still). Like the Trespasser DLC, Cole, Solas, Mordin Solus from ME. Taash on the other hand... Feels being written by entirely different person. Wonder if EA decision screwed everything over.
You know, you can tell which one has better writing just from the music. One has "feel sad" music blaring in the background to force feelings that the writing can't create. The other is silent so you here everything being said and to let the moment sit with you because it knows the writing and acting sells the scene.
Funnily the "feed sad" music doesn't even work and it creates this comedic effect where you feel disenchanted seeing this random event playing out in front of you.
Notice the difference in stakes, In inquisition, Dorian was a necessary key to prolonging the family line and furthering their political and biological power. Dorian's country is all about magic, so much so, that they practice eugenics in order to breed more powerful mages. And for magical eugenics you have to have a powerful magical spouse, which causes the need for arranged marriages between powerful families. Dorian was ostracised not simply because he was gay(though their culture is also homophobic) but the biggest problem with him was that he refused to play pretend in order to reinforce his family's political and biological position. At stakes we have: the future of his bloodline, the social/political standing of his living family members. In veilguard, the stakes are much smaller. Tash's family have already left the Qun, they gain nothing by practicing/referencing Qun's rules in everyday life. Tash's gender identity has no political/social/biological influence on anything. She is no longer a part of Qunari society, the only thing which remains is her mother, who is only a bit confused with how she acts/talks. At stakes we have: the confusion of her mother. Nothing else.
Also Dorian's dad was trying to manipulate his son still in a way to get what he wants. Taash's mom admitted to all her faults and was asking for understanding as well in return while trying to understand Taash. Who ultimately shut her out completely and clearly didn't give a shit about her own mother's feelings.
The first comment that really says something I agree. The two scenes were well written. Both respected the characters involved and felt genuine. What most people who compares the two don't get, however is that stake difference. I also find Dorian's questline more satisfying and deeply meaningful, but that doesn't make Taash's objectively bad, just a lot less interesting.
@@GabrielPassarelliG I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I find the Veilguard scene to be more... modern? Like it feels like they pulled it out of a sitcom. Maybe it's the table setting, or the way Taash said "So... I'm non binary" but it just feels out of place in a fantasy game.
I like how the reaction in Inquisition to Dorian saying "I prefer the company of men" (notice it's not 'gay', as that term was only adopted in English within the last century) is to react with "people care about that?" and he proceeds to give an extremely logical and in universe reason why it DOES matter within Tevinter culture (eugenics are the norm), and how he's literally seen as flawed because of it. He also doesn't play the victim here. He's rightfully angry because his own father attempted to use an evil blood magic ritual to alter his sexuality by force against his will in order to 'fix him' instead of accepting him, which caused Dorian to run away. Taash is just written by an individual who has never faced legitimate persecution so they have to invent a false sense of victimhood to get outraged at and her writing mirrors that mentality as though she's a self insert.
And too be fair, the father’s logic was sound in a sense. His son was going to get married and produce kids no matter what (as is his duty), so might as well make it so he’s not abjectly miserable the entire time
Well you're in for a shock. The writer of Taash is Trick Weeks who wrote some of the characters in inquisition like Iron Bull, Cole and even the main baddie SOLAS. So clearly it's not a skill issue since Weekes was responsible for some of the more enigmatic and memorable characters.
@@starsfalldown1234567 That makes it more inexcusible, because they were THERE for Dorian's writing. Unless these writers were sequestered and isolated they should have been aware of each other and their writing tendencies. Worse, if they did seek outwards for inspiration and correction, they got the wrong advice. This writing was poor, and it's a poor representation of non-binary people. It's so rare that such people get representation, which means more attention is paid to it - it was so important to get this right and they botched it. Taash feels both underwritten and underdeveloped as a person and a character, and is one of the game's bigger disappointments.
@@PikachuLittle somewhere in this quest is was also said that such rituals (conversion therapy by blood magic) are dangerous and can leave the person subjected to it in a vegetative state in case anything goes slightly wrong. so dorian's father at some point thought that the risk of reducing his son a vegetable is worth it if there's also a chance he'd become straight.
The thing that is brilliant about the Dorian character is that they took an aspect of who he was and then investigated how it impacted in the context of that world. The solution to resort to blood magic was uniquely Dragon Age. Also, why does a game published in 2014 look better than the one published in 2024?
Frostbite. There's nothing wrong with Frostbite, in fact, in can be used for some truly spectacular stuff (I.E. Dead Space, which is the best videogame remake since Resident Evil back in 2002), but Frostbite isn't meant for RPGs like Dragon Age. And this, combined with a Saints Row 2022-esque artstyle (it was made by Tumblr Narcissists after all), results in a game that somehow looks less appealing than even Dragon Age Origins from 2009!
The best part is that they didn’t make his sexuality into his entire character. They actually gave him a lot of depth. Sadly, the same can’t be said about Taash.
well at least at the the of tasah's scene you have a dialog choice.: A: taking Taash's side. B: taking Taash's side but in a difference way. C: taking Taash's side, but in a difference difference way. and D: taking Taash's side but in a difference difference difference way.
Dorian was a brilliant man who had refused to let you get close, he even pretended to be straight for a female inquisitor! This was an entire story arc in one scene. I think i was too harsh on inquisition.
and the way he apologizes to her for "leading her on" is just so... wonderful, and the sheer RELIEF when she can tell him to never stop with the flirting... I just love the follow up scene so much
I liked the story. My grudge with inquisition was the mmo style with vast spaces. I prefer a smaller but well done world... or the world of Witcher 3, which was huge and yet very well done.
@@KaiReel23 it's a blessing when you want to just live the actual world of Thedas tho, esp after claustrophobic second game. It didn't make sense for The Inquisitor to be the one going around for errands, 100%, but otherwise - even that is a question of tastes, really, the game was overall very good.
@@Xenono54 I am just saying, that the world building of Inquisition felt to me a bit empty and even grindy with little substance to it (unlike, say, GTA V world with crazy and funny encounters or Witcher 3 with unique quests and, in my opinion, better exploration). Which is why I think Origins was overall the best of the 3 for me. The Dragon Age 2 reused same locations, which was lame, but had a great story (Fascinating and alien Qunari, siblings conflict in the family, war between templars and mages, cool companions, that I wanted to know better, human r@cism against elves). Edit: but yeah, Inquisition wasn't a bad game. But I didn't find it great either.
@@KaiReel23 bro, it's 100% grindy, don't sugarcoat it. I'm just saying, for each their own, and some people don't find even grindiness to be a minus :D P.S. Oh YES the Qunari in DA2, Elves too (except for the fugly makeup they kept giving NPCs for some reason)! Loved THAT.
I think this is more a case of "we scared off all of our good writers, so we grabbed the first person off the street who wasn't completely illiterate."
The problem with Veilguard was never the LGBT stuff. The Dragon Age series always had that since the start (and did it really well in my opinion). The problem is presentation, and the difference in quality is shown here beautifully.
Well LGB, there isn't really any trans stuff. Also they don't use the words gay, bisexual or lesbian because that is modern English. It feels more natural to the world of Dragon Age that Dorian used the words "I prefer the company of men." It fits better than just saying the modern words.
Dorian's father: All about reputation. Homophobic for selfish reasons. Questionable apology. Dorian is naturally upset. Taash's mother: Admits she failed as a mother. Is trying to understand. Taash in explosively aggressive about it. Dorian is upset for good reason. Taash doesn't even like her mother, she wants her to be a monster. I mean, for fuck sake, it sounded like the mother left upset all while trying to understand what her daughter was! Definitely woke writing, cos it's the same rabies you see on Twitter: "I'm this thing!" "I don't understand." "YOU DESERVE DEATH!", like calm your they/them tits, Taash, Jesus... Not to mention, the phrasing. "I prefer the company of men", nice, subtle, in lore, fits the theme. "I'm non-binary", modern, blunt, doesn't fit the lore or theme. Plus, nobody called Krem trans despite him being so (women living as a man, no surgery possible), but he was accepted as such by the Chargers.
it's so sad. In Inquisition they made a trans character and integrated him organically and explained how he fits into the lore of DA and how he is perceived in his society and why it's possible for him to socially transition in that society. in Veilguard they didn't try to be creative and make it sound natural, they just decided that Tevinter society has the concept of nonbinary and calls it exactly that, Taash heard about that from Neve and started calling themselves that. the devs could at least come up with a unique Tevinter word for it, just how they did with the Qunari word for trans
@sunshine-dz6xj Exactly. I was thinking maybe Taash doesn't have a label for what she is, just that it feels correct to nit say "he" or "she", and her mother believes it delusional to call yourself a plural as "people will think she's possessed!". A misguided fear for her child and how the world would view them. I mean, they never openly called Krem trans in English, Bull was just like "Oh yeah, this happens in the Qun, we have a term for it, it's fine." while Tevinter was iffy with it all (and fine with slaves) and Orleas was fine with rampant gayness (Leliana and Zevarn being both examples). There was plenty of ways to weave a tapestry yet the decided to burn the yarn and call it art. -_-
@sunshine-dz6xj have to agree here we dog on inquisition for many valid reasons but the writing wasn't one of them it had many great moments and the characters were likeable and fit the world of dragon age
See thats the problem. He's not even homophobic. He doesn't hate that he's gay. He cared at the time he wouldn't sire an heir and keep their noble line going which is the duty of his station. He not only loved his son, but he didn't understand what was "wrong" with him. You can see how hurt he was that he hurt his son.
4:23 As someone who hasn’t played The Veilguard, what kind of choices are these?!? Not a single dialogue option to call her out? With Dorian, we could tell him that he didn’t let his father speak or that he should at least give the conversation a chance. Why does Taash deserve such kid-gloves?
Nah see in this game every dialogue option is : supportive, supportive and funny, supportive but stern and sometimes supportive and direct or supportive and apologetic. See now you really have agency to choose
From what I’ve noticed (haven’t played the game, just watched gameplays and videos), in DAV you can be either nice or nicer, especially to your companions 😅 many ppl described the dialogues as „ones that would take place with HR in the room”. I am not transphobic, but imo being a transphobic character should be an option, too. Driving your companions nuts and making them leave your party because of your decisions, opinions and choices should be an option, too, because that’s life. I think this is one of the key features of well-written RPG games. When I watched Taash and Emmerich argument scene and the way they apologised to each other, I was waiting for Mickey Mouse to pop up on screen and say “See kids? This is how you say I’m sorry” 😅 I’m a huge DA games fan and I can’t believe what it has become.
I watched my friend streamed the game and I don't think there was a single option to be a an asshole for your companion, every choice is supportive and not really meaningful.
Every dialogue choice is supportive and helpful, all characters are in safety bubble and ABSOLUTELY no one grows. "I'm right and you're wrong, the world has to change around me" Basically, woke ideology
What did you think? That game is just a sick woke propaganda. The whole ideology is "I want attention, you can't disagree or have your own different opinion, you have to agree with me, a special snowflake". That's the whole point about it.
Paying writers enough generally attracts more competent writers, or, at the least, encourages them to do a good job instead of just slapping stuff together for the next minimal paycheck. Bioware has been treating writers very poorly recently, which caused all their good writers to leave, so they're probably stuck hiring people who either don't care and just wanna clock in and out or are discouraged by the pay and work environment to do a good job.
I'm rusty on my Qun lore, but didn't they have words for this? The mom by comparison seemed logical and willing to understood, a sharp contrast the Dorian's father who attempted to use blood magic to change him entirely.
@@robcampion9917the mother is talking about a man or woman who wants to live as a woman or a man. That word means transgender. Taash isn’t transgender. That’s what the entire conflict is. The Qun has very strict gender roles so someone who does not want to follow those gender roles conflicts with that. That’s also why they use “non-binary” and not some made up Qun word. There isn’t a word for it in their language.
@@danielvital6836 Then they could have made up another made up word to use and not had them act like a petulant child that spends too much time on X and TikTok and wants to have special treatment like those people, but they do say write what you know.
@@danielvital6836 A woman that doesn't subscribe 100% to traditional gender roles is still a woman. The whole idea of Taash's conflict (and NB in general) is reductive and just reinforces the gender roles instead of challenging them.
It's so sad since the core idea behind Taash is not bad. A character who grew up in a society that is defined by pigeonholing is struggling with their own identity and doesn't feel like any role or category truly matches them. That is a compelling concept that *could* evoke empathy. Everyone can relate to feeling lost, feeling like nothing truly fits you, being confronted with expectations because of certain attributes that you cannot influence. Unfortunatetly the writing is just so bad that i'm having a hard time to feel anything other than hoping for the dialogue to end. Taash despite being an adult still acts like an obnoxiuos teenager in their rebellious phase.
Yeah. I'm frustrated in a way that conversations tend to just veer into the generic "go woke, go broke" critique. I don't see an issue with Veilguard having trans stories by any means, the issue is that this is just a really really bad trans story. It feels so out of place with how it approaches the topic, the dialogue is rough and awkward, you feel railroaded down a specific route, so it sacrifices any and all player agency, and it's so hard to be sympathetic to the character it is supposed to be about. Representation isn't the issue, as Dorian's story shows, it's just that Veilguard is full of really bad and out-of-place representation. Under a competent writer, Taash's story could have been both compelling and moving, but as it stands, it feels more like a joke.
@@LiF-y3cthe thing is Weekes IS a competent writer actually. He wrote Tali and Mordin in Mass Effect, and Vivienne and Cole in Dragon Age, for example. I don't know that happened here.
@@miossid I suppose I'd have to agree with you. Every writer can have bad ideas, but that's why you need cohesive and constructive team that can nurture good ideas and push back against the bad ones when needed. My assumption is there was minimal pushback with Taash's story from the other writers and editors because of two key issues. Trick clearly poured a lot of their nonbinary identity into Taash, but I worry that the team (of which there is plenty of competency and talent as much as people say otherwise) were unwilling to interfere with a story that was dear and personal to Trick, even if they had concerns. On top of that, Trick's spouse, Karen Weekes, is Veilguard's lead editor, so there's an obvious conflict of interest there and you have to wonder if less scrutiny was given to Taash's story as a result.
I like how much "choice" you have in veilguard. Pick one: 1. Your mother is wrong 2. You are right 3. SHES SO BAD OMG!! 4. You are so poor and she is so evil! Daaaaamn those choices 2024 ga_ming P.s. wheres the option: please leave my party immediately?
It was also the thing that got me the most. Can't even decide which option to choose between "you're right" and "you're right". If every dialogue in the game is like this then I have no idea who are those 20k people playing this game right now, I'd rather watch paint on my walls dry
Im still so confused on why the writers chose 'Non-Binary' which is a computer term for a medieval fantasy game. They even came up with a more accurate term in this scene? why not just use that term?
Dorian's father - opens his heart to Dorian, admits he hurt him, asks for forgiveness. Taash's mother - says (not to taash) she is a bad mother but that's not her job. Tries to force taash into qunari concepts. Flees at first sign of emotions.
The mother was definitely trying to deal with a delusional childish outburst, trying to understand someone who immediately began throwing a tantrum, if anything she is way too soft with her daughter, pretty much the opposite of what you said
@Serechll and I disagree but that would need a presentation on cptsd, emotional deprivation and developmental delay, triggers etc xD so let's say I'm just glad that most of the viewers don't resonate with that scene
"He tried to change me." This line really made me understand Dorian's frustration and sadness all at the same time. Also, the voice actors really nail the Dorian scene.
I’ve never played a Dragon Age game (I bought DA II but I keep forgetting to play it) and even without knowing any of the context, that line really hit hard. The voice actor delivered it great.
@@zigzagintrusion That won't be a shock, but as a DA fan, you definitely should play it. Voice acting in all three games is stellar and even in DA2, with its questionable gameplay, you'll find yourself admiring how the story is portrayed, particularly through voice acting. Characters make these experiences actually happen on the screen, especially since I never saw the convos between PC and companions as something visually groundbreaking, most of them consist of just seeing them move their lips. Doesn't matter, though, because the charisma oozes from the screen and captivates you like a spider does a fly.
It's not even subtle, it only looks that way compared to Veilguard. Then again, Dorian would have to literally skip into the room while a banner unfurled in the background, covered with rainbow colored glitter with the words "I'M GAY!" etched across it in order to not look subtle compared to Traash sitting down at a table and blurting out "I'm non-binary!" Edit: Spelling the name as "Traash" was a typo. But I like it, so I'm leaving it as is.
@@theobell2002 not subtle at all, but the scene has context, his father wants to make a perfect mage, even using blood magic, while Taash is just, yes, I'm non-binary and you're a bad mother for not understanding easily, while his mother already knows she's not perfect, but tries to give her daughter the best when she feels how the Qun could be dangerous to her, and also giving her a good life?????? Dorian in this case SHOULD be mad at his father, but Taash? yes, her mother is bad because... she wasn't raised to be empathetic and understand things when they're not clear??????????
@murono22 Dorian's situation is a lot more understandable and sympathetic. It seems he really looked up to his father and saw him as the epitome of virtue in a society that regularly oppressed the weak. There was a high degree of trust that was broken when his father went to extreme lengths to fix him. A player might even feel justified in telling Dorian to never speak to his father again. Taash's situation, on the other hand, is nowhere near the same level. They invite their mother over for dinner, then scoff at her dietary choice. They ambush her with a term her mother is clearly unfamiliar with, without any build-up whatsoever. They also make it clear they have no respect for their mother's opinion on the matter, despite her doing her best to understand the situation. Worse yet, unlike with Dorian, Rook just sits there, unable to influence the outcome in any meaningful way. If anything, the Taash dinner scene is a perfect example of "How not to come out to your family".
If DA:I is putting the message in my hand, DA:V is stamping it with a universe sized clothes iron, thats why I said "difference", the dialogue or content in DA:I isnt peak or anything but good lord it makes me wish for it back with DA:V.
The worst part is that, as Taash's mother says, there is already a term "aqun-athlok" under the Qun for how Taash feels, but they still had to go with the modern version and make her non-binary. Her mother was just trying to understand but Taash is just forcing her to love her without providing any answers and explanations. You cannot demand love if you're not giving it back.
The difference is Dorian's scene describes the situation, and allows the player to feel out their own thoughts and feelings on the subject. To empathize with Dorian and who he is as a person. Veilguard flat out tells you how to feel, and that you're wrong for not understanding in the first place.
It also respects the established lore within Thedas. It wasn't so much an issue before in both DA 1&2 the prospects of non-binary gender, especially in romance. Their very divine is not required to be a "virgin" and a mirror of Andraste. What they put instead is the premise of how either views cannot be easily subjected to right or wrong without proper context. The Tevinter Magesterium are power hungry. Like Dorian said, what he was angry wasn't about the non-acceptance of his father that he liked men but the fact that they have to subject each and every generation to a breeding ground just to give birth to a "perfect mage" and the worst part is his father believes he is doing this for his son because they are all part of this so called "legacy". The issues with the Qun was that it wasn't just a society or race, it's a religion. They try to maximize meritocracy by putting those most capable in the right position and only then will they be given freedom but should still be focused on their "purpose". What Taash was saying is they want to be a part of the Qun but cannot properly do so. The problem then is the execution. Despite being emotion driven, Dorian was able to tell his story why he felt remorse against his family. Meanwhile Taash didn't feel like they really care about what they want to happen. Do Taash wants to serve the Qun properly once they find their identity or was she just a shoe horned character for DEI and pretty much shallow outside of their traits. I can respect them being called with their preferred pronoun as part of their lore. But what is the context and how did it affect the world and lore at large. DAV felt like a generic RPG that uses the settings of Thedas but nothing more. DA has always been world driven that's why despite how proper or improper your choices are, the consequences are out of the player's control. I understand that they are attempting a "soft reboot" but this feels like they just made the 3 entry worth of history into nothing because apparently everyone is dumb and soulless.
@@Maruceroooo i sent it from my mobile, that message was aimed at "kirururik" just under you, i guess the @ didn't work. that said, you sound really fucking insecure lmao
@@kirururik In this case there absolutely is one, Dorian. You're just misunderstanding about the reason he's a victime. He's not a victime because his father or his national culture dosn't agree with his sexuality, He's a victime because his father ACTIVELY tried to change his mind by force with the use of blood-magic that could have killed his son or worse. On the other hand, that other character just threw "I'm non-binary", her mom didn't buy it, she left, that's it. Beside emotional damages, there is no actual harm here, it's a divergence of opinions. But Dorian? Nah that Boi went through something genuinely dangerous and harmful. Real fucking danger that could have threatened his life and worse from the one he trusted the most.
Why are they acting like this is some insane conflict. The mom even doesnt come off as bigoted or toxic, just confused and Traash is being a huge asshole about it.
@krasmasov6852 i own the game, traash is a huge asshole throughout, and you can never call them out on it, you can only be supportive of Traash's selfish behaviour. Sure before this the mom was a bitch but the child takes from its mother. Also Traash judges people for wearing dresses, mind your own business, Traash. A shitty character doesnt mean bad writing, but when the shittiness is depicted as not shittiness, it is bad writing imo.
As a matter of fact,Dorian is one of my favorite characters in inquisition. He's actually the male character that I want most to have a bromance relationship with my male inquisitor. Hate how he looked in Failguard and how little he did in that trash.
If you romance Dorian in inquisition, his look in the credits is his look in Veilguard. It wasn’t created for this; it was actually made cannon in Inquisition.
I really love Dorian's scene. Unsupportive father is not a big surprise, but when he gets to blood magic stuff this is a whole new level of crap. We all play pretense to fit in, but to forget yourself entirely? That's scary
This comparison is really good I thought about it too, thanks for making the video. The difference in the quality in writing is really clear. Dorian’s writing and voice acting are really good and you actually sympathize with him and it fits within the story. Taash just comes across as a petulant child which would be fine if that’s what they were meant to be but you don’t really have the option to call them out
@stephenwithaph1566 Have to disagree. Just listen carefully; the mumbling of words alone is bad imo. I don't consider that to be a mark of a good VA. But I've also only seen this scene, and if the VA was very impassionate here specifically, which would not surprise me, then it might be that she is better otherwise.
The entire point of inviting Taash's mom to dinner here was to tell her that Taash is nonbinary. That's the central purpose lol. Did you not play the game?
I’m not gonna comment on The Veilguard because I haven’t played it and ripping into what I haven’t seen/played feels unfair. When I experienced the scene with Dorian’s father, I loved it. The reasons for why they fell out go beyond who Dorian takes to bed. It’s the product of Tevinter’s political culture, social stigmas, and deeply-held values being cast aside. Dorian’s father betrayed him, and his anger is entirely justified. Dorian’s father, having now seen just how terribly he betrayed his son, has sought him out in hopes of forgiveness. It’s such a perfect scene that it shocks me. I also appreciate how neither character uses modern terminology like ‘gay/homosexual’ or ‘conversion therapy’. I’m not against modern language in fantasy settings, but avoiding the obvious words in favor of phrases like “I prefer the company of men” and “you tried to change me” was an inspired choice. There is a reason Dorian’s story is beloved by the LGBT community. It’s relatable, sympathetic, and tasteful without coming off as preachy or simplistic. More of this, please?
You won't get another story like Dorian's. The people writing LGBT representation these days (except maybe indies) simply aren't capable of understanding what made Dorian's story work. All you get now is slop in the vein of Veilguard. This isn't even limited to AAA gaming- comics, cartoons, and movies are all like this now and have been since 2018 or so
I just finished it. I bought it and played it out of respect for the Dragon Age franchise. I wish I spent the 75 hours doing something else. I completed every companion and faction quest, opened every chest, explored every corner of every explorable part of the game. The actually meaningful story spans what feels like just 2-3 months of time in the game, which can be covered in 12 hours of gameplay. The rest of the gameplay is not worth it. 60$ for just 12 hours isn't worth it. There is some attempt at character development in the companions, but it just so diluted down and bland. It feels like this game was made for kids in that sense. The combat system was nice, could be better, especially how your companions interact with combat. Your companions are basically unkillable, a mechanic which makes fights sometimes really stupid. Also using any spell of your companion triggers a global cooldown, meaning you can't use any of their other spells, so you end up only ever using one spell to combo (there is a trigger/detonation system) with another; this might not be the optimal approach in higher difficulties though, where supportive companion spells might be needed. I can keep going honestly. A very bland game, with no attempt at innovation, regression in quality in some aspects compared to prior games. I wouldn't play it again nor recommend it,.
Gaider has said that Bioware began to resent its writers and expensive narratives, think its something anyone can do. No understanding that the gameplay was never especially good, it was the narratives that kept people returning. This is the result.
David Gaider, the lead writer for Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age II, wrote Dorian. He also wrote the three DA books, The Stolen Throne, The Calling and Asunder. Of course it's good/better.
Bioware either losing or just straight up firing some of it's oldest and greatest Dragon Age writers between Inquisition and Veilguard really shows here
@@collenjets123 even Origins had issues. People act like it was the perfect game but the gameplay was 99 out of 100 times cast blizzard or some area attack and stay behind a door, fighting against a reskin of the same enemy over and over. But I do agree that Inquisition lost some pure rpg elements from Origins. Both had excellent writing though, can't say the same for Veilguard unfortunately
Personally. Inquisition had issues with gameplay and pacing, not voice acting or story telling. In fact, it is as good as Origins. But that grind and vast empty maps with ugly UI elements is/was turn off to this day.
I loved Dorian in Inquisition, maybe my favorite companion. He actually had a personality and wasn't just all about his sexual orientation, although of course that was also a part of him/his story. But he had plenty to offer besides that. And look how they massacred him in Veilguard. A fucking crime against fashion.
The conflict Dorian has with his father actually makes sense, given the culture and the politcs of the society they came from. Taash' conflict with her mother is just drummed up teenage drama.
What pisses me off about Taash’s scene is that their mother is just trying to understand. How can you “jUsT bE hAPpY” for someone without understanding what you should be happy for them about??
They did a good job capturing the utter confusion normal people have when they are met with these crazy concepts. Also, look at 4:21. Of course, there is no answer you can give where you can side with the mother because the writers are so high on their own product that they don't want to give the player a chance to disagree with their views.
The more I think about it, the more I wonder if the writer of Taash’s dialogue was resentful for having to write about the non-binary character and formed that character exactly how he or she feels about non-binary. Taash sounds like a 14-year-old, not like a mature person who can have mature conversations with respect for others. If they felt respect for non-binary people, they surely would have been able to do better than this? Anyone could have done better than this?
I mean, yeah. You can make a character come out as non-binary or whatever else but why make it like this? Why make this like an IRL interaction? It seems the writer forgot they were writing for dark fantasy and not their usual fanfiction
@abcdefghij337 yeah that would be nice. I mean the mother's even trying to understand the situation so I don't get taash's hostility at all. what I meant was it's written like a coming out dialogue in the real world, our world, and not setting approbiate.
It's really not like a real interaction. Unless by an "IRL interaction" you mean an argument on Twitter where everyone talks like bots that try to tear one another down over stupid crap like micro-aggressions incorrect pronouns.
It is objective tho, Inquisition is my favorite entry - the gameplay was awful, but the writing was the best in all the games for me, as were the characters - mature, complex, and you could go back to the scenes many times, analising them.
@@pativi6643It is my personal favorite as well (I love Origins, had like 10 playthroughs, but it's just dated), I do acknowledge that the game has significant flaws. And 90% of them are EA's fault. I didn't buy it on launch so some of the bugs were fixed when I got it + I knew to skip the grind in the Hinterlands.
Wait so the Dragon Age world already has a word for people who don't identify with their birth-assigned gender? And the mother accepts that? But the character just says no and argues? This writing makes no sense.
Dorian scene is really good. There's a really solid drama that driven by the setting of Tevinter. In Tevinter, as Dorian said, you have to merry a random person just to get a better child. And you couldn't decide for yourself who to merry, this women/men is handpicked by your parents. Hence Dorian being gay is such a problem in Tevinter. That's why his father was driven by Tevinter's society and it's rules to such an extreme to use blood magic to change Dorian, which could've ended really bad for Dorian. But at the same time writers makes you sympathise with a father, who realised that he betrayed his child. It doesn't feel forced. It feels really organic in Dragon Age world. And at the same time people who wanted representation got what they wanted. Tash at the same time is a member of Qunari society, which is insanely strict and direct with it's rules. I mean, talk to Sten in DAO and you will get a pretty good idea on how their society works. I mean, a non binary? In qunari? I think they had a different word for people like her. And what her mother is talking about? She is qunari, why is she trying to understand her? As a Qunari she would've called her a dumbass, who dosn't respect the Qun and trying to make things more difficult. I mean, one of the reasons why Qun works the way it works, because it's simple, direct and doesn't complicate things. You were born a warrior, then you are going to live as a warrior for the whole life. You were born a craftsman, then it's your job for the whole life. No need to change it, no need to strive for more. That's how Sten explained it and felt that everyone who doesn't think that way are the weird ones. But in DAV we are trying to make a drama out of it? In strict society such as this? Im sorry, but Tevinter have much more freedom, that's why i can believe there's more freedoms and that's why a person like Dorian might exist. I haven't played DAV, so maybe im missing some context. I would love to believe that. But I don't wanna believe that they've ruined Qunari. They always were so controversial, but at the same time some of their ideas on how their society works was pretty interesting.
The fact that Shathann tried to understand her daughter shows that she really cares. You can't tell that to Taash though, it's just four different flavors of "don't worry, your mom is wrong".
sten's issue in DA:O is that female characters were fighting while being ACKNOWLEDGED AS FEMALE. that was what broke his brain. most of this is Inquisition retcon, but Iron Bull explains that in the Qun, if you are a good fighter, you are a man. period. it doesn't matter if you were born with female parts. if you fight, you are male. if you have a female role in the qun, you are female, it doesn't matter what's between your legs(my HC is that if Bull wasn't such a good fighter from a young age, he might have ended up a Tamassran which is a female role, thanks to his caretaking needs and mother hen tendencies. tamassrans also assign various roles to individual qunari which fits with his intelligence brain). in the qun, your role IS your gender IS your identity - which is carried over from Origins, where Zevran has banter with Sten where he states categorically that "sten" is actually Sten's RANK, not his NAME(a qunari inquisitor, when meeting iron bull for the first time, can acknowledge him as "sten" as well). which was a neat bit of rewriting if you ask me. it technically is a retcon, but it doesn't FEEL like a retcon because the logic of the earlier information carries over. if Taash had stayed in the qun, they likely would have been acknowledged as male. I'll grant the non binary bit would be difficult for qun brains to handle, because to them all roles are gendered so i can imagine that having someone who is NEITHER gender might be difficult for them to fathom, but as to what Qunari lore existed prior to Veilguard... Taash would have been able to be a male in qun society.
Taash didn't grow up in Qunari society and isn't a member of it. her mother did grow up under the Qun but ran away with Taash when she was born. she did it because Taash is a firebreather and so Shathann was afraid they would make her a berserker in the Antaam. aside from that as far as I've seen Shathann still follows the Qun but Taash is more liberal and doesn't respect the Qun as much because she grew up in Rivain and had influence from non-Qunari people. it also seems like she's being a teen rebel and I thought so because her whole character is written like she's 15 but apparently the devs said she's in her early 20s. it makes sense that her mom doesn't understand the whole nonbinary thing, as a Qunari she doesn't see "neither" as an option
@@sunshine-dz6xj A non-binary person in qunari society would be considered a worthless lazy outcast. Their roles in society are tied to gender meaning if you choose none you also refuse to take on a role benefiting society. So Taash and the whole "being unsure of gender" would only make sense if Taash would feel BOTH as a man and a woman. Trying to take on multiple roles as a single person. Instead they chose the completely opposite because of modern sensibilities and a narcissistic self insert.
in the tiniest bits of fairness, they are outside of the Qun so they are operating on different tandards, though in aprt their expereinces. it doesn't change that nonbinary wouldn't even exist as a word in their world. dorian doesn't use the term homosexual, cause it doesn't exist. simply that he 'prefers the ocmpany of men'.
One of the best things about the Dorrian scene was how desperate his father seemed to be to reconnect with his son after knowing he fucked up. The facial animations and voice acting got that across very well.
I hadn't seen any footage of Veilguard yet, and It genuinely took me awhile to figure out that the newer game's scene wasn't just an amateur parody sketch about braindead communication.
Dorian looks like a grown man. A man who makes his own decisions and is ready to take responsibility for them. Taash looks like a child who can't figure out what kind of sandbox they want to play in. This is just my opinion about these two characters and how they were written.
the mom said she was a scholar and explained that she was thought to look at things logically so first being non binary is very uncommon in this world and instead of going "o well its this" she just went off... in our world maybe it would be weird to say in America but I think the mom never had a chance
@@orgaysis it might be realistic for the modern day but its pretty silly in the context of a medieval fantasy. This scene would make soooo much more sense in something like Mass Effect, here it feels like 1 person in a d&d group that is trying to apply real world logic to feudal nightmare societies and being surprised when people dont know policies/terms that wont be invented for another 2 thousand years (Also the Qun are fucking insane ruthless zealots, there is no way i can believe they wouldnt just kill someone on the spot for being a bit different, like they had to pick the absolute least plausible race in the game for this too)
WHILE YOU’RE ALL HERE CHECK OUT ANBEEGOD’S MODS
What's that?
I’m too scared
@@starsfalldown1234567 they make really great Skyrim mods that expand a lot of NPCs, plus they’re working on a massive quest mod, DLC sized, which is incredibly fun
This is anbeegood? I love their mods!!
@@steebstrang6340it's a group of people?
"Here, vegetables... Sooo, I'm non-binary."
Incredible writing.
“Here, non-binary… soooo, I’m vegetables.” Would’ve been a massive improvement.
@@Noxlla She turns into a carrot
Oh hai doggy
well, actually considering Taash's nature it's only natural that she unload this kind of stuff rapidly and in inappropriate time, because she's nervous about it and still afraid of Tama's reaction. THIS was actually good. But the fact we've got a team of masterful professor of necromancy, brilliant detective, hardened in war with demons scout and a f*cking immature teenager, who can breath fire... What the hell...
But yeah, comparing to Dorian (or any companion in DA:I) there's only 1 or 2 really explored companions, others are hollow and sometimes just straight up fillers
Yeah. I'm sure you've never had an awkward conversation with a loved one in your life. Betcha you S rank all of them with Speech 100.
"Who the fuck starts a conversation like that?!" -Peter Griffin.
I just sat down
@@sonictelephone1526 *He
*She
Fuck
*It
Did you see the peter griffin in dragon age clip? Its really good, should be easy to find for anyone interested.
People who are looking to start a fight, not start a conversation.
@@Humpdurious Yup, I saw it, Seinfeld laughing track and all. Was utter gold and made the whole interaction slightly more bearable to sit through
T: I am
M: Oh we have
T: No
Veilguard writing in a nutshell
I know right? Taash is literally so manipulative. "No, I don't like aqun-athlok, I like non-binary" so childish. What's next? Gonna call her mom a bigot if she doesn't comply??
Tell me you havent played the game without telling me
" i didn't know you were gay"
" Well, it's not like i introduce myself that way "HeLlO mY nAmE iS dOrIAn, i LiKe MeN" maybe i should start, seems like that's what everyone cares about these days"
-my favourite bit of dialogue in the whole mission
I love how he specifically tears that shit down when fucking Veilguard fell right into that exact pit.
The fact that Dorian was explicitly sarcastic yet this is EXATCLY what the Veilguard is doing is actually mind-blowing
@@thesunisup_ someone forcing Bioware to do that, that's what it is probably. Like Bl Rck saying that they'll stop financing them. So they can only use aesopian language.
@junkolover9518 no one forced anyone in bioware.
Even if they had been forced to implement certain things, HOW they're implemented is the key to quality. Looking at the whole overall writing quality of the game it's very clear this is the team's fault, especially that gendermancer director's.
This had little to do with outside influence. They were hardly told how to write the dialogue word for word.
@@thesunisup_I can say the same thing about Inquisition. Sten says women can't be men in Origins. Then Iron Bull is like well we have special women who take on men's roles. Yea no..
Even the term "non-binary" seems out of place and too modern. Dorian didn't say he was gay, he said he "liked men." Krem wasn't called "trans," Krem was just called a man, and Bull said the Qun had a special term for people like Krem. Word choice ensured that they didn't feel out of place.
A character in a Medieval fantasy using the term "non-binary" feels VERY out of place.
non-binary is outta place even in the modern era its just a made up word to confuse the younger gen
And they might as well be not speaking english at all. If elves and dwarves predated humans then their language may be similar to them which is very far from english yet here we are "non-binary".
Yeah retcon the whole Qun for the sake of diversity. The Qun has no words for Trans or other kind of sexual preferenzes. If you are not in the norm of the Qun,you are a Tal-Vashot and we saw in DA2 what happens to them.
Didn't the mom say their own people have a word that is at least inclusive of that? Maybe more broad, but non-binary would fit under what the mom said, but she got yelled at for saying it.
@@johnnobon that cause those just want power over others and the people with real power hate the target people culture regition nation etc let get away with it cause the ideology harms the target why you think this crap has been unchallage for this long and any one fighting it are shut down
I love it when my medieval fantasy character uses real-world contemporary identitarian language to refer themselves. It doesn't feel deeply weird at all.
Nice pic
Do you... think these words dont exist in their universe? Or?
Do you not know people use words to describe themselves? Are you angry because a part of someone's identity is different from some sort of faux norm you have constructed in your head?
In a world of evolving individuals, we dont have to beat around a bush anymore. We just tell you the bush needs to be beaten.
thats what I was kinda trying to think about. like we can have fantasy settings with our contemporary problems, so why does it feel off? Is it the specific word "non-binary" that breaks the immersion? Because I think thats interesting.
Like we could then instead had the character be like "I prefer neither to be labeled as male or female" and leave it at that or make up a fantasy word for that but it seems ok to use modern words and phrases that are more established.
So it makes me think of how new/contemporary can language be in a fantasy work like this and not have it feel, "off"?
@@connerallen934 It's the dissonance imo. Krem never said "I'm trans", Dorian never said "I'm gay", they used language that fits in with the rest of the setting to describe their identities (and Thedas doesn't have a LGBT+ rights movement, so presumably little in the way of discussion of this kind of thing). Krem just says "I'm non-binary".
Notice how the Dorian scene was directed. Dorian walks from side to side, looks on the floor, hangs his head, looks back, poins his finger. And it was 10 years ago.
His Walk is different too.
It’s almost like the Dorian scene was made by people with talent or something 🤔
Yeah well he is standing up and the others are sitting down. The facial animations are better in Veilguard.
Hahaha... no, they're not, even the lip sync is fucked up in veilguard... everything is fucked up and poorly made in veilguard.
@@Allaiya.Idk if just me but every veil guard scene I see it looks so unnatural people just standing or sitting without moving their bodies
Dorians scene is so sympathetic.
It’s so well written.
Taash is the opposite of sympathetic.
The more I see this Taash scene, the more it annoys me that her mother actually invites sympathy and is somewhat well written, where almost nothing else in the entire game is.
Calling herself an inadequate mother due to her role and training as she does is actually a very Qunari thing to say. There's this whole arc within her character where she realises the damage she's done to Taash by going against the Qun and allowing this attitude to fester.
you don't need to be gay to empathize with a son having that relationship with their father. taash seems to act like a teenager so its harder to empathize with them
When Dorian was announced I was very against it, it felt like more forced inclusivity but damn that character was really well done and it actually made me more tolerant of characters like him. And hell, even his explanation about slavery gave me pause.
@@azahel542 Because even most people who complain about inclusion aren't against inclusion itself, rather they're against when it feels forced. Dorian is a Tevinter Mage, who happens to be Gay, Taash is a Trans-Person who happens to be Qunari. Dorian works because his's identity isn't dependent on him being Gay. You take that out, and you still have a Tevinter Mage and his opinions & views on the Rustic South.
@JacobiDanielle1 This is the fundamental point of contention, as always. Characters designed to only embody a specific trait first and foremost, with that traut generally being one based on modern sensibilities. That might work in a modern setting (though I'd argue it is jarring even there), but it _definitely_ doesn't work in any other setting.
“Taash, I’m so sorry…that you overreacted to very understandable confusion.”
Yeah they reacted like they're insecure about their own identity and how they live up to their mother's expectations or something. If only they established that first. Oh wait....
@@krasmasov6852 cope and seethe 🤡🤡
@@krasmasov6852 They acted like an immature, irrational, self-victimizing, "The world is against me and they're all evil cause I indulge my sensitivities by choosing to take everything like a personal attack", narcissistic brat.
@@krasmasov6852 Idk the mother seems the most real person in that scene. The other two feel written by 12 year olds
Deadass bro, I thought Taash’s mom was genuinely curious. She wasn’t attacking the issue, she just wanted to understand, and Taash was a passive aggressive dick about it
One is reasonable anger towards a parent who sought to control their child.
The other is a child throwing a tantrum at a mother who just wants to understand.
It's more of a fear response. Imagine possibly getting oppressed by your parent. Is it more than it had to be? Yes. But it's genuinely coming from a guarded place of "I have to be ready for anything".
I am fine with Taash being wrong with the lashing out but ask why Taash is guarded than "why this scene is so awkward".
Which is a thing that happens.
@@Nutshellbound Taash is not a child though. Yet behaves like one.
@@lepi8587 Taash is in their early 20's. Around the same age as Sera in DAI. Not a child, but young enough to still be frustrated as they try to navigate who they are.
@@nozomi90first off, it's a medieval fantasy setting- people mature slower today because we have things easy and don't need to learn as early. People in this kind of setting would be fighting and working by 15-16, so 20 is more akin to today's 30. And even with today's age of maturation you still should NOT be acting like this. I wouldn't even think of talking to my parents like this when they're actually showing signs of trying to understand and have expressed actual care for me. If you act like this in early to mid 20's you should be ashamed of yourself.
I think that the reason Dorian's story was so well recieved is you don't have to be LGBT to relate to it. A noble kid who idolized his dad and whose dad loved him. Then he matured and got told that he's free to love who he wants to, but he still has to fulfill his dynastic duties - marry who will be picked for him and reproduce. Just as the dad did, he himself despised his wife, but still did his duty. But the boy chose differently and the loving reformer father suddenly decided to do the unthinkable and change his sons mind through an evil ritual, massive risks be damned. So the boy ran away. A decade later, the father understands just how much he messed up and hurt his son, and only wants to see him again. The fact that Dorian is gay is an integral part of the story, but the story would work even if he weren't. Because it's not a gay story, it's a human story.
EXACTLY! 👏
The reason Dorian's story is well-recieved (now) is because you have a worse example.
Dorian's story sucked too. I despised it then and it's only gotten worse.
You have a billion interesting things to do with you characters and you reduce the gay one to being gay and crying about their dad.
Ridiculously lame, the only difference is the LGBT+ nonsense has gotten worse.
@@LevattWolfheart ok
@@LevattWolfheartAgreed. The only things worse in Traash's story are the delivery, quality of writing and dialogue
@@LevattWolfheart The being gay part of his story wasn’t the main focus imo.
I always felt it was about making teventer a better place. He relationship with Alexi and his father all tied back to the issue with the country. The use of blood magic and nepotism. The betrayals and manipulations. It’s part of the reason he leaves at the end to become a magister.
Also Dorian was well received. It was Krem who was disliked. Her story about being trans mulan just didn’t work.
Real Victim VS Real Victimism
Also... the last Veilguard choices only blame the mother: the only neutral is "i'm sorry"
Dorian's "You tried to CHANGE me!" with the voice break always stabs my heart. Taash's storyline is NO comparison.
And some people can be with Dorian, my dad try to me to study engineering, and I want to go to the law school, my dad try to sabotage and use his influence to not go to law school, cut the money he gave me, years later he apologize and be a father again to me, hurts a lot.
Dorian is relatable because even though the conflict is about his sexuality, you could replace that with any major life choice and it would still work. I don't like dragon age inquisition for a lot of reasons, but thr writing wasn't one of them. The characters are great
Yeah, because non-binary cr4p isn't really a thing like being gay or trans, you still dress the same way, you can still be heterosexual, so what's the big deal about it while gay and trans really get hate and a hard life? Non binary are just pretending they have a problem to become more interesting to other people while actually showing they're sexist and they believe stereotypes are real. I hate pink, that means I'm non binary? No, I'm just a woman who hates pink and don't fit into patriarchal roles. When I started playing I hoped Tash was trans instead she is just a silly child with no real problems
Oh yeah I felt that, I really really felt that.
Yeah, it hits hard like Garosh "you made me who I am" during encounter with Thrall
It's so damning that Rook has basically no effect on the outcome.
The Inquisitor can actively push Dorian to seek reconciliation or not and it affects him very differently.
I've done both and it makes their reconciliation way more meaningful when I know that there was a choice.
The NB convo is just happening in Rook's presence and they can't back Taash up or convince Taash to listen instead of just lashing out.
Rook is a PC that acts more like an NPC when it matters most.
Best part about the Dorian bit is, he does have all the agency. It's his story, but like any good friend, you can encourage his actions. It's like somebody actually knew how to write this as a third-party and not as a rant.
@Pastafari4 exactly, man that's why it feels hollow in Veilgaurd. It's like being talked at instead of spoken to.
In VG Rook is literally the Michael Jackson eating popcorn meme as events happen in front of them. And then there's no option to call her out on her behaviour. The writers assume the audience is automatically on Taash's side. With Dorian, you can use your judgement and encourage Dorian to reconcile or push him to walk away.
@@Incoherent-excitement if they would give me choice, i would be totally on Taash's mother side
@splintergectornathan9045 exactly. There's zero compassion for the mum in this situation. She clearly has a strained relationship with her daughter and struggles to understand her. Having dinner together is a way to help bridge the divide, and Taash just aggressively info dumps a whole new identity on her, blind-siding her and attacks her mother for asking questions she obviously going to have because she assumes she's "rejecting" her feelings.
Reminder that Dragon Age HAS been able to write and organically introduce a trans character, Krem, in the past, which means there is NO excuse as to why they should have struggled with Taash so much. Just pure laziness.
Krem wasn't trans? she was just gay and Bull even said women/men who feel they are born different gender are considered that way, in that convo Bull said "you are a man" as a compliment
@looots1320 I don't think you played the game, lol.
It was weird and awkward then, too, but this is just atrocious
@@JenIsHungry To be fair to Inquisition, I don't think there was a way to have inserted a trans character in a year like 2014 that wouldn't have inveitably been considered at least a little awkward. A lot of people didn't even know what a trans person was at the time, so there's not much they could have done differently to make it less weird.
I don’t know if this was lazy or just a skill issue.
What baffles me is the mom even suggested a word for it that fit? She didn’t deny her kid, just tried to understand? But I guess she was supposed to be a robot that only had the same variety in dialogue they gave Rook: positive affirmation or else.
It's a very ironic scene in that it establishes that "non-binary" doesn't exist in the world of Thedas in any meaningful way, and that Taash has little more understanding of the label than who she's talking to, and certainly less empathy. Speak the magic words as I tell them to you, or be shunned. Very unfortunate writing decisions.
Technically speaking is not the right term either, the term used by Taash's mother is closer to transgenderism than non-binarity, which isn't the case.
However, much like Dorian's "I preffer the company of men" and let the audience be smart to infer he's gay instead of using modern-coined terminology, Taash could've used the same language to let their mother know they don't identify within gender binarity constructs, a thing that's taboo within the Qun's gender strict viewpoint but told to someone that by all accounts is willing to hear and critique as unbiased as possible while accepting personal accountability for her parental abscense.
All of this without considering Taash's tantrum or the game's demand to always side with them no questions asked. By all means, the writting is witless, in spite of veteran writters from previous Dragon Age games being involved.
@@diegosaez4885only one small disagreement. Going by the description, the term could be used to describe transgender, or non binary, even though it's clearly meant to be used for transgender
I think the term that their mom is using is more of an umbrella term than anything else. there could be subsets of it because that's how Qunlat's language functions
Even when the mom said that calmly, Taash was like “Why can’t you just be happy for me?!” What the fuck..? That is not even a retaliation, that’s just lashing out. It’s like the writer just writes “Taash disagrees with the mom of using the term that fits, okay, why? Because fuck her that’s why, no retaliation on how those two are different things, no, just no, she’s wrong, Taash is right..”
It seems strange somehow for a character in a fantasy game to use the term non-binary. There have been people throughout history who didn’t consider themselves male or female, but that specific term feels very modern. Dorian doesn’t call himself gay, he just says he prefers men. Also his anger at his father feels a lot more earned lol. The Veilguard convo feels so awkward and rushed.
It's a very one-dimensional writer self-insert
Exactly. Taash's mother even uses a specific term inuniverse that could very well describe a non-binary character but apparently Taash isn't happy with that
This writing is basically self-insert fanfiction
@@coolgirl3890well, Taash's mother also used the term "gender assigned at birth", which is also a modern delusion.
@@VIixIXine She used the phrase “gender given to them at birth”, not “gender assigned at birth”. It looks like a tiny difference but it does somehow flow better and feel more in universe-y than the latter. Too bad Taash had to go and throw an entire fridge at it barely a few seconds later.
Dorian's story is so much more compelling because it is not *just* about his sexuality. No it's bigger, it's about expectations and appearences, about an overbearing family that demands perfection and percieved his homosexuality as an imperfection that must be stamped out.
And of course, it features two adults attempting to reconcile rather than one adult being berated by a child.
1: I’m non binary
2: we have a term for that
1: no fuck you
2: your’re misunderstanding
1: no fuck you I want to fight and be mad
2: sorry I caused a problem. Ill leave
1: *sits angrily*
Literally seemed like she was trying to be understanding. Weird writing
it's so confusing, like were they two writers between Taash and her mum or what?? because her mum sounds like she genuinely just doesn't know wtf she's talking about and seems very rational and understanding, but Taash is throwing a fit and her mum just "i know this mood, i'll dip" right out of there
Maybe we all missunderstood that scene, I bet the writer is the parent who struggles with a non-binary child xD
It’s the way these idiots see the world. They’re perpetually the victim, even if someone is agreeing with them on everything. It has less to do with gender identity and more to do with narcissism.
Taash is 13 years old in every way but physically, and being in a romantic relationship with her is fucking unacceptable.
The head writer has autism. I feel like someone who doesn't know social cues shouldn't be writing dialogue, otherwise we get the newest DA.
I just love how Taash's mother in all of this just looks legitimately confused.
Yeah and the only responses you can make to traash is to paint the mother in bad light.
She just seems confused to me and Traash is acting like an asshole.
Mother even suggests Qun sayings for it which would be more fitting for a medievil fantasy game than 'non-binary'
And Traash just throws a fit. I dont like Traash at all.
At least they got that part right lol. I relate to her more than anyone else in this silly game.
As we all were in this game
Yeah cause of course attempting to introduce 21st century concepts and words that didn't even exist to 15th century people is gonna be a little confusing for them. Somebody had to write this crap.
@@TheRealWalterClementsIt's not even that. As Taash's mother said in this very video, the Qunari already have a word for "transgender", the basis of understanding is *there*
What Veilguard does is much worse and universal than trying to introduce foreign concepts as if they were common place: it says there's no room for growing and learning. The people in your life need to act with the utmost nonchalance to using a new name or identity for you, and if they don't you're entitled to scream at them and cut them out of your life, even if they're just asking questions or are trying to relate to you in terms that aren't LGBT+ adjacent.
She was legit like, "Oh yeah, we have people who don't conform to gender in our culture!" straight-up trying to make her child feel normal and she just freaked out. What even was that.
Because the goal isn't to feel normal.
The goal is to feel superior because she's different.
Just got to Taash's part and it felt so.... artificial?
I remember reading that Dorian's personal quest was inspired in David Gaider's (the main writter for the first three games) own relation with his father and it was so genuine and heartfelt, wheter or not you personaly relate or just feel empathy for Dorian himself.
Taash.... feels more like a checklist
When people talk about "woke writing" they're trying to articulate that feeling you had. One rule that these writers follow is this (fill in the blank with whatever identity group the writer is writing about)
" Nothing bad can ever happen to a ___ character because they are ____."
This is terrible writing because it basically makes any character development impossible. All stories rely on conflict, and conflict is the first thing to go in woke writing.
exactly! filling the blank without even trying to make sense of it.
This writing feels so empty , like everyone worked alone without any feedback or debate.
i laughed so hard when I hear "non binary". like.. I don't care if you are, but where is the effort to use a term that makes sense to the fantasy word. Why the writers didn't have the effort to paraphrase it? Time? EA was against It? Only time will tell
It's pretty close to the way my talk with my mother went when I came out as nonbinary. It's very accurate.
Look at it from a different angle: Taash didn't sit down to negotiate, simply to state what they already knew to be true. And from their perspective, their mother didn't listen and tried to push in her preconceived ideas into the conversation (with Aqun-Athok being the rough equivalent of "transsexual", an outdated and inaccurate term). Even after repeating themselves multiple times. And I believe Taash is already being characterized as blunt and impulsive afaik, so this all makes sense.
I believe the scene is simply demanding too much from the player. You need to be familiar with real world and in-lore terminology, with lived realities of nonbinary people specifically AND you need to have the media literacy to connect the dots. That's a lot.
Otherwise, you will automatically stand on the side of Taash's mother who obviously doesn't even know what she did wrong. And she did say hurtful things, but it's not really revealed why they are hurtful. Which is also accurate, because as a nonbinary child, you really don't want to engage with that conversation at this point.
I feel like there is something missing here. A scene either before or after this conversation that helps explaining the dynamic.
@@Rubycule Or the better choice. Which is not putting all this BS in the game.
self insert dialogs from unskilled amateurs vs actual authors. one tried to tell a story while the other tried to oppress their own insecurities onto audience, the difference and the intention is obvious as day an night
Anyone else took notice how Dorian's actual dialoge with his father is kept private? You know, because it's a family business. We are there to make sure he is safe, give him courage and keep in check that this whole family matter doesn't spiral out to some political clusterfuck with Tevinter, but the talk is theirs. With Traash it's like "Hi mom, this is my boss, he will now listen to me coming out, anyway I'm non-binary, so fuck you. You may nod approvingly now, boss." I mean, who the fuck does that?
If you dont do her quest during one of the meetings of the veilguard someone will straight up stop the meeting to announce Taash's new pronouns. Its so jarring and stupid.
IF you skip neve or someone else will say she's trans or nonbinary ect and all choices is accept it. Thats bs nazi ideology.
@@bmagada
I'm assuming recruitment is as mandatory as learning her new pronouns?
Writers who need a therapist instead of a job writing for a major franchise
It's one of these things you bring a friend for, to back you up so you don't appear more unreasonable than you need to.
"I don't feel like either gender, I'm different" is a hard sell to a parent that has seen you acting out many times before.
Dorian was such a well written character, his orientation was an aside. The fact that you could still flirt as a Female Inquisitor and he'd play along regardless.
Kudos to the writers for giving Dorian the charm and humanity he had that was delivered by the immaculate Ramon Tikaram.
Damn the difference is staggering, I am not even the biggest fan of Inquisition and the writing for Dorian is so much more respectful and better for his character in the world.
you don't need to be gay to empathize with a son having that relationship with their father. taash seems to act like a teenager so its harder to empathize with the,
Well, this video is basically the difference between good and bad writing in a nutshell. Storytelling is two things, there is the story and then there is how you tell it. Veilguard... kinda dropped the ball at both parts. 😒 The whole thing with Dorian also has a really nice in-world background to it. Tevinter's have a thing with magic and bloodlines, and i think the game gave fleshed out that detail well. So nothing of it, felt forced, it meshed well with the story and world.
Which is why the problem was never about LGBT people, the problem was that the writing is .just so awful in vail guard
@@greggreyes6869Taash was clearly a self-insert of some non-binary writer with mommy issues. Taash has little personality beyond those two facts. The mother doesn't even seems that bad from what I have seen, but because she didn't immediately embrace and reassure her child, she's clearly evil and we have to hate her.
Taash is also a bully, that also feeds into why players dislike them.
Because Dorian is written as a human being. Capable of anger and making mistakes, but also genuinely still loving and respecting his father. In fact, most of the criticisms he lays are directly against Tevinter. Dorian has a right to be angry, and his dad knows he did wrong.
This is as opposed to Tash and her mother, with her mother mostly being confused and trying to understand through the Qun.
Also keeping in mind that Dorian's anger is directly related to his father attempting to deny his own sexuality, and perhaps doing something else (there's some veiled implications there). Meanwhile Tash comes across as an angry toddler because mommy dearest misgendered them.
Basically, it's a difference between someone writing in a good reason to be angry, a well designed character (I didn't use Dorian much due to his specialization, but he still was one of my favorite characters due to personality), and a conclusion that seems fitting. Versus Tash, who is basically just a mouthpiece for the creator to vent their mom and dad issues
Dorian's father tries to literally stop his gayness with forbidden magic, and Dorian finds the strength to accept his apology.
Meanwhile, Taash's mother is slightly confused about her new gender status and gets the 'screw you mom, educating you is not my problem!' treatment.
This sounds like something from a book for 13 year olds, and not one of the good ones...
I'm pretty sure my niece is more mature than Taash.
She's 10.
Most people with pronoun in their bio write and talk like that.
When someone first said that to me I responded with oh that’s nice. But I have no clue what you’re talking about. Then they said and I rolled my eyes and walked off.😂
Halward used blood magic to make Dorian marry that girl they've found btw. He didn't care about Dorian's gayness.
@@theprinceofrosesandorder That's still debatable, I feel if he uses blood magic to force him to marry a girl it kind of goes against his gayness lol. I guess youre correct that it seems like he would do it if he was asexual or refuse to marry for some other reason as well though so it might no be targeted at his gay identity specifically. He still doesn't accept Dorian's reason not to want to marry that girl and beget heirs to the bloodline and all that
Nothing takes you out of a medieval fantasy RPG more than hearing "Sooo, erm, EXQUEEZE me! I'm non-binary. Totally not a self-insert wink wink! Also mother, erm, you need to stop being such a homophobe." 11/10 writing
‘You tried to change me’
So much vulnerability. The pain of a parent wanting to change you would resonate with anyone
BioWare writers “once we had a fanbase that admired and praised our work”
Dragon Age fans “once we had stories that deserved it”
the mother is trying to be understanding and supportive while taash is being a angry teen and lashing out for no good reason and the dialog forces you to be all supportive of taash instead of rightfully calling them a fucking asshole
Seriously, the dialogue forced my Rook to raise his voice at the mother. That was a weird out of place and out of character overreaction.
That's something that has become really apparent since Veilguard released, taking away the player's ability to react how they want
@@jamesavis1 illusion of choice
The mom legit just doesn't know what non binary means
She's asking 'do you mean your trans?'
And Taash seemingly gets pissed her mom doesn't just immediately know what non binary means and is asking so she can understand
I feel like they're trying to do a whole 'look at what a bad mom she is', but that's not at all what this is. She just legit wants to know what it means
It seemed to me that the mother was trying to relate a term in their language to one she'd never heard before. Why get mad over that?
Remember - Dorian had the strength to do all this despite nobody peeling grapes for him in WEEKS.
Ramon Tikaram is a fantastic actor, and he does great work with the (noticeably more nuanced) writing.
Oh you made me laugh
Taashs Mom: "oh, we have a thing in our culture that sounds very similar to this new concept you're describing to me"
Taash: REEEEEEEE
The mother straight up came with what might be a lore-friendly version of non-binary instead of using modern terms in a medieval fantasy game, and the girl really just threw a fit at her.
Here's the thing: a lot of people who clip that scene with Taash leave out the bit beforehand where the mom doesn't really know how to be a mom, but rather a scholar. Knowing that context, her cold yet inquisitive response is spot on for her character. All Tassh needed to do was not get overly emotional, explain the difference between non-binary and trans (the lore friendly term the mother used), and their mom most likely would have understood and probably accepted.
Instead, Taash flips out for no good reason, and Rook is forced to side with Taash no matter what. Horrid.
@@TheKrossRoads To be fair, in that sense Taash acts like she always has to that point. They are petulant, rude, and demanding. Expecting others to do something they would not do for them, such as demanding people address her as They/Them while simultaneously calling Emmrich a 'death mage' despite him asking very politely not to. They are designed to be annoying and unreasonable. The annoying thing is you can't say anything about their attitude.
that shit was made up and dumb tbh
Taash's mother gets offended when you get Taash to embrace her Qunari side in order to connect better with her mother. It seems to me like whoever wrote Taash had no clue on how to write character flaws and struggles. Because, to me, even if Taash used the Qunari word, Taash's mom would apparently be upset about it.
Holy shit, you know what? I realize only years later that I never gave a single fuck that Dorian was gay.
When I went through this mission and found out what his father did, the only thing on my mind was “Yo, you tried to fucking warp my boys mind, you piece of shit? Let him love who he wants!”.
I didn’t see Dorian as the “Gay guy”, I saw him as a person trying to be himself. I backed him up because he was a friend, not the “gay companion”.
God, the writing was underrated in inquisition.
Plus he was fun and funny to run around especially with sara 😂
The wonders of good writing. These new writers make the character gay/NB as their main character points, then try to tack on traits afterwards, whereas previously they were aware that these people are nuanced and deep that also happen to also be gay, not sole element of their personality.
And in the end it’s not really about Dorian being gay, but rather that he wouldn’t submit to the script his father wanted him to follow.
@@enrique6335 Exactly, but that level of complexity doesn't resonate with a modern writer unfortunately.
@@westevez1863 no one in DATV is a new writer as far as i know. The person who wrote Taash had one of the best writing history in Bioware in my opinion (not as good as David Gaider who wrote Dorian and created Dragon Age as a whole, but still). Like the Trespasser DLC, Cole, Solas, Mordin Solus from ME. Taash on the other hand... Feels being written by entirely different person. Wonder if EA decision screwed everything over.
Imagine Dorian being "Im Gaaaaay father" and starts to vogue. Duckwalking while the inqusitor is going slay! slay! slay queeen!
You know, you can tell which one has better writing just from the music. One has "feel sad" music blaring in the background to force feelings that the writing can't create. The other is silent so you here everything being said and to let the moment sit with you because it knows the writing and acting sells the scene.
Funnily the "feed sad" music doesn't even work and it creates this comedic effect where you feel disenchanted seeing this random event playing out in front of you.
@@m1hfn2fI don’t even find it funny. It’s just painful to watch. I’m wondering how they found people to dub that shit.
Notice the difference in stakes,
In inquisition, Dorian was a necessary key to prolonging the family line and furthering their political and biological power. Dorian's country is all about magic, so much so, that they practice eugenics in order to breed more powerful mages. And for magical eugenics you have to have a powerful magical spouse, which causes the need for arranged marriages between powerful families.
Dorian was ostracised not simply because he was gay(though their culture is also homophobic) but the biggest problem with him was that he refused to play pretend in order to reinforce his family's political and biological position.
At stakes we have: the future of his bloodline, the social/political standing of his living family members.
In veilguard, the stakes are much smaller.
Tash's family have already left the Qun, they gain nothing by practicing/referencing Qun's rules in everyday life. Tash's gender identity has no political/social/biological influence on anything.
She is no longer a part of Qunari society, the only thing which remains is her mother, who is only a bit confused with how she acts/talks.
At stakes we have: the confusion of her mother. Nothing else.
So well put
Also Dorian's dad was trying to manipulate his son still in a way to get what he wants. Taash's mom admitted to all her faults and was asking for understanding as well in return while trying to understand Taash. Who ultimately shut her out completely and clearly didn't give a shit about her own mother's feelings.
The first comment that really says something I agree. The two scenes were well written. Both respected the characters involved and felt genuine. What most people who compares the two don't get, however is that stake difference. I also find Dorian's questline more satisfying and deeply meaningful, but that doesn't make Taash's objectively bad, just a lot less interesting.
@@GabrielPassarelliG I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I find the Veilguard scene to be more... modern? Like it feels like they pulled it out of a sitcom. Maybe it's the table setting, or the way Taash said "So... I'm non binary" but it just feels out of place in a fantasy game.
1:23 who dafaq starts a conversation like that, she literally sat down.
I like how the reaction in Inquisition to Dorian saying "I prefer the company of men" (notice it's not 'gay', as that term was only adopted in English within the last century) is to react with "people care about that?" and he proceeds to give an extremely logical and in universe reason why it DOES matter within Tevinter culture (eugenics are the norm), and how he's literally seen as flawed because of it. He also doesn't play the victim here. He's rightfully angry because his own father attempted to use an evil blood magic ritual to alter his sexuality by force against his will in order to 'fix him' instead of accepting him, which caused Dorian to run away.
Taash is just written by an individual who has never faced legitimate persecution so they have to invent a false sense of victimhood to get outraged at and her writing mirrors that mentality as though she's a self insert.
And too be fair, the father’s logic was sound in a sense. His son was going to get married and produce kids no matter what (as is his duty), so might as well make it so he’s not abjectly miserable the entire time
Well you're in for a shock. The writer of Taash is Trick Weeks who wrote some of the characters in inquisition like Iron Bull, Cole and even the main baddie SOLAS. So clearly it's not a skill issue since Weekes was responsible for some of the more enigmatic and memorable characters.
@@starsfalldown1234567 That makes it more inexcusible, because they were THERE for Dorian's writing. Unless these writers were sequestered and isolated they should have been aware of each other and their writing tendencies. Worse, if they did seek outwards for inspiration and correction, they got the wrong advice. This writing was poor, and it's a poor representation of non-binary people.
It's so rare that such people get representation, which means more attention is paid to it - it was so important to get this right and they botched it. Taash feels both underwritten and underdeveloped as a person and a character, and is one of the game's bigger disappointments.
@@PikachuLittle somewhere in this quest is was also said that such rituals (conversion therapy by blood magic) are dangerous and can leave the person subjected to it in a vegetative state in case anything goes slightly wrong. so dorian's father at some point thought that the risk of reducing his son a vegetable is worth it if there's also a chance he'd become straight.
@@msssmysteryWow I don’t remember learning that, well its a good thing blood magic just doesn’t exist in Veilguard then 🙄
The thing that is brilliant about the Dorian character is that they took an aspect of who he was and then investigated how it impacted in the context of that world. The solution to resort to blood magic was uniquely Dragon Age.
Also, why does a game published in 2014 look better than the one published in 2024?
Frostbite.
There's nothing wrong with Frostbite, in fact, in can be used for some truly spectacular stuff (I.E. Dead Space, which is the best videogame remake since Resident Evil back in 2002), but Frostbite isn't meant for RPGs like Dragon Age. And this, combined with a Saints Row 2022-esque artstyle (it was made by Tumblr Narcissists after all), results in a game that somehow looks less appealing than even Dragon Age Origins from 2009!
@@NebLleb Inquisition was also on frostbite. In fact, a lot of faults of the game are there because of Frostbite
It was originally going to be an online game like Elder Scrolls Online till EA listened to Bioware on not doing that
It's because they tried in 2014, they didn't in 2024
The best part is that they didn’t make his sexuality into his entire character. They actually gave him a lot of depth. Sadly, the same can’t be said about Taash.
It feels like a politically funded PSA was plugged into a script. Like, "Hey kiddos! Do you know what non-binary is?"
well at least at the the of tasah's scene you have a dialog choice.: A: taking Taash's side. B: taking Taash's side but in a difference way. C: taking Taash's side, but in a difference difference way. and D: taking Taash's side but in a difference difference difference way.
😂😂😂 just an agreeable puppet
And I thought fallout 4 was bad with its "yes", "hesitant yes", and "sarcastic yes"
@@KingBobbitoYou forgot the 4th option. Fail/terminate quest line
Bout time we take the Trash out then.
@@Espartanica Nah, that's not an option. You can select, "As of right now, I will say no, but I reserve the right to come back later and say yes."
Dorian was a brilliant man who had refused to let you get close, he even pretended to be straight for a female inquisitor! This was an entire story arc in one scene. I think i was too harsh on inquisition.
and the way he apologizes to her for "leading her on" is just so... wonderful, and the sheer RELIEF when she can tell him to never stop with the flirting... I just love the follow up scene so much
I liked the story. My grudge with inquisition was the mmo style with vast spaces. I prefer a smaller but well done world... or the world of Witcher 3, which was huge and yet very well done.
@@KaiReel23 it's a blessing when you want to just live the actual world of Thedas tho, esp after claustrophobic second game. It didn't make sense for The Inquisitor to be the one going around for errands, 100%, but otherwise - even that is a question of tastes, really, the game was overall very good.
@@Xenono54 I am just saying, that the world building of Inquisition felt to me a bit empty and even grindy with little substance to it (unlike, say, GTA V world with crazy and funny encounters or Witcher 3 with unique quests and, in my opinion, better exploration). Which is why I think Origins was overall the best of the 3 for me. The Dragon Age 2 reused same locations, which was lame, but had a great story (Fascinating and alien Qunari, siblings conflict in the family, war between templars and mages, cool companions, that I wanted to know better, human r@cism against elves).
Edit: but yeah, Inquisition wasn't a bad game. But I didn't find it great either.
@@KaiReel23 bro, it's 100% grindy, don't sugarcoat it. I'm just saying, for each their own, and some people don't find even grindiness to be a minus :D
P.S. Oh YES the Qunari in DA2, Elves too (except for the fugly makeup they kept giving NPCs for some reason)! Loved THAT.
I think this is more a case of "we scared off all of our good writers, so we grabbed the first person off the street who wasn't completely illiterate."
The problem with Veilguard was never the LGBT stuff. The Dragon Age series always had that since the start (and did it really well in my opinion). The problem is presentation, and the difference in quality is shown here beautifully.
Well LGB, there isn't really any trans stuff. Also they don't use the words gay, bisexual or lesbian because that is modern English. It feels more natural to the world of Dragon Age that Dorian used the words "I prefer the company of men." It fits better than just saying the modern words.
"Oh, you're a member of the LGBT alright. Just not a super one!"
"Oh yeah? What's the difference?"
"Presentation!"
@@omnipresentl1316Krem in inquisition was transgender
Yeah this is extremely lazy writing.
@@omnipresentl1316 Krem was in Inquisition and Maevaris was in the comics since after DAII.
Dorian's father: All about reputation. Homophobic for selfish reasons. Questionable apology. Dorian is naturally upset.
Taash's mother: Admits she failed as a mother. Is trying to understand. Taash in explosively aggressive about it.
Dorian is upset for good reason. Taash doesn't even like her mother, she wants her to be a monster. I mean, for fuck sake, it sounded like the mother left upset all while trying to understand what her daughter was! Definitely woke writing, cos it's the same rabies you see on Twitter: "I'm this thing!" "I don't understand." "YOU DESERVE DEATH!", like calm your they/them tits, Taash, Jesus...
Not to mention, the phrasing. "I prefer the company of men", nice, subtle, in lore, fits the theme. "I'm non-binary", modern, blunt, doesn't fit the lore or theme. Plus, nobody called Krem trans despite him being so (women living as a man, no surgery possible), but he was accepted as such by the Chargers.
it's so sad. In Inquisition they made a trans character and integrated him organically and explained how he fits into the lore of DA and how he is perceived in his society and why it's possible for him to socially transition in that society. in Veilguard they didn't try to be creative and make it sound natural, they just decided that Tevinter society has the concept of nonbinary and calls it exactly that, Taash heard about that from Neve and started calling themselves that. the devs could at least come up with a unique Tevinter word for it, just how they did with the Qunari word for trans
@sunshine-dz6xj Exactly. I was thinking maybe Taash doesn't have a label for what she is, just that it feels correct to nit say "he" or "she", and her mother believes it delusional to call yourself a plural as "people will think she's possessed!". A misguided fear for her child and how the world would view them. I mean, they never openly called Krem trans in English, Bull was just like "Oh yeah, this happens in the Qun, we have a term for it, it's fine." while Tevinter was iffy with it all (and fine with slaves) and Orleas was fine with rampant gayness (Leliana and Zevarn being both examples).
There was plenty of ways to weave a tapestry yet the decided to burn the yarn and call it art. -_-
Hoenstly part of it is that it means that its possible he wont sire a new genreation either.
@sunshine-dz6xj have to agree here we dog on inquisition for many valid reasons but the writing wasn't one of them it had many great moments and the characters were likeable and fit the world of dragon age
See thats the problem. He's not even homophobic. He doesn't hate that he's gay. He cared at the time he wouldn't sire an heir and keep their noble line going which is the duty of his station. He not only loved his son, but he didn't understand what was "wrong" with him. You can see how hurt he was that he hurt his son.
“How she takes it is her problem”. Such a lovely character.
4:23 As someone who hasn’t played The Veilguard, what kind of choices are these?!? Not a single dialogue option to call her out? With Dorian, we could tell him that he didn’t let his father speak or that he should at least give the conversation a chance. Why does Taash deserve such kid-gloves?
Nah see in this game every dialogue option is : supportive, supportive and funny, supportive but stern and sometimes supportive and direct or supportive and apologetic. See now you really have agency to choose
From what I’ve noticed (haven’t played the game, just watched gameplays and videos), in DAV you can be either nice or nicer, especially to your companions 😅 many ppl described the dialogues as „ones that would take place with HR in the room”. I am not transphobic, but imo being a transphobic character should be an option, too. Driving your companions nuts and making them leave your party because of your decisions, opinions and choices should be an option, too, because that’s life. I think this is one of the key features of well-written RPG games. When I watched Taash and Emmerich argument scene and the way they apologised to each other, I was waiting for Mickey Mouse to pop up on screen and say “See kids? This is how you say I’m sorry” 😅 I’m a huge DA games fan and I can’t believe what it has become.
I watched my friend streamed the game and I don't think there was a single option to be a an asshole for your companion, every choice is supportive and not really meaningful.
Every dialogue choice is supportive and helpful, all characters are in safety bubble and ABSOLUTELY no one grows.
"I'm right and you're wrong, the world has to change around me"
Basically, woke ideology
What did you think? That game is just a sick woke propaganda. The whole ideology is "I want attention, you can't disagree or have your own different opinion, you have to agree with me, a special snowflake". That's the whole point about it.
It's not even about "paying writers enough" it's about getting people who are even mildly competent at writing.
Or talk to their parents at least…
Yeah, it appears they have a either a writers room filled with hacks or there's at least one very dominant asshole who insists on dialog like this.
Paying writers enough generally attracts more competent writers, or, at the least, encourages them to do a good job instead of just slapping stuff together for the next minimal paycheck. Bioware has been treating writers very poorly recently, which caused all their good writers to leave, so they're probably stuck hiring people who either don't care and just wanna clock in and out or are discouraged by the pay and work environment to do a good job.
You don't get those people without paying them well.
one is a father who tried to control his son the other is a mother trying to understand
I'm rusty on my Qun lore, but didn't they have words for this? The mom by comparison seemed logical and willing to understood, a sharp contrast the Dorian's father who attempted to use blood magic to change him entirely.
Yep, the mother actually says it.
@@robcampion9917the mother is talking about a man or woman who wants to live as a woman or a man. That word means transgender. Taash isn’t transgender. That’s what the entire conflict is. The Qun has very strict gender roles so someone who does not want to follow those gender roles conflicts with that. That’s also why they use “non-binary” and not some made up Qun word. There isn’t a word for it in their language.
@@danielvital6836 Then they could have made up another made up word to use and not had them act like a petulant child that spends too much time on X and TikTok and wants to have special treatment like those people, but they do say write what you know.
@@danielvital6836 A woman that doesn't subscribe 100% to traditional gender roles is still a woman. The whole idea of Taash's conflict (and NB in general) is reductive and just reinforces the gender roles instead of challenging them.
@@DJ-yo9oigood point
It's so sad since the core idea behind Taash is not bad.
A character who grew up in a society that is defined by pigeonholing is struggling with their own identity and doesn't feel like any role or category truly matches them.
That is a compelling concept that *could* evoke empathy. Everyone can relate to feeling lost, feeling like nothing truly fits you, being confronted with expectations because of certain attributes that you cannot influence.
Unfortunatetly the writing is just so bad that i'm having a hard time to feel anything other than hoping for the dialogue to end. Taash despite being an adult still acts like an obnoxiuos teenager in their rebellious phase.
Yeah. I'm frustrated in a way that conversations tend to just veer into the generic "go woke, go broke" critique. I don't see an issue with Veilguard having trans stories by any means, the issue is that this is just a really really bad trans story. It feels so out of place with how it approaches the topic, the dialogue is rough and awkward, you feel railroaded down a specific route, so it sacrifices any and all player agency, and it's so hard to be sympathetic to the character it is supposed to be about. Representation isn't the issue, as Dorian's story shows, it's just that Veilguard is full of really bad and out-of-place representation. Under a competent writer, Taash's story could have been both compelling and moving, but as it stands, it feels more like a joke.
@@LiF-y3cthe thing is Weekes IS a competent writer actually. He wrote Tali and Mordin in Mass Effect, and Vivienne and Cole in Dragon Age, for example. I don't know that happened here.
@@miossid I suppose I'd have to agree with you. Every writer can have bad ideas, but that's why you need cohesive and constructive team that can nurture good ideas and push back against the bad ones when needed. My assumption is there was minimal pushback with Taash's story from the other writers and editors because of two key issues.
Trick clearly poured a lot of their nonbinary identity into Taash, but I worry that the team (of which there is plenty of competency and talent as much as people say otherwise) were unwilling to interfere with a story that was dear and personal to Trick, even if they had concerns. On top of that, Trick's spouse, Karen Weekes, is Veilguard's lead editor, so there's an obvious conflict of interest there and you have to wonder if less scrutiny was given to Taash's story as a result.
that not really compelling not fitting in and finding your purpose in life is old as dirt and has beeen done without gender
"despite being an adult still acts like an obnoxiuos teenager in their rebellious phase."
so just a typical non-binary person then.
"Why, this is a good comparison video! What videos does this dude have?"
Followers Dialogue Expansion
"Holy fucking shit."
Turns out making the character actually likeable is incredibly important
I like how much "choice" you have in veilguard.
Pick one:
1. Your mother is wrong
2. You are right
3. SHES SO BAD OMG!!
4. You are so poor and she is so evil!
Daaaaamn those choices 2024 ga_ming
P.s. wheres the option: please leave my party immediately?
Someone went around sacrificing the main party characters in a video. Was actually the only satisfying thing I saw from this entire game lol
It was also the thing that got me the most. Can't even decide which option to choose between "you're right" and "you're right".
If every dialogue in the game is like this then I have no idea who are those 20k people playing this game right now, I'd rather watch paint on my walls dry
Im still so confused on why the writers chose 'Non-Binary' which is a computer term for a medieval fantasy game. They even came up with a more accurate term in this scene? why not just use that term?
Dorian wants to be accepted by his father.
Taash wants to bully and gaslight her mother.
Dorian's father - opens his heart to Dorian, admits he hurt him, asks for forgiveness.
Taash's mother - says (not to taash) she is a bad mother but that's not her job. Tries to force taash into qunari concepts. Flees at first sign of emotions.
The mother was definitely trying to deal with a delusional childish outburst, trying to understand someone who immediately began throwing a tantrum, if anything she is way too soft with her daughter, pretty much the opposite of what you said
But also, the writing is god awful trash so we can just disagree, considering the writers are completely useless
@Serechll and I disagree but that would need a presentation on cptsd, emotional deprivation and developmental delay, triggers etc xD so let's say I'm just glad that most of the viewers don't resonate with that scene
But I still have my concerns. Like the 'we can't kill the boss monster bc we are distracted' xD please find a better excuse xD
"He tried to change me." This line really made me understand Dorian's frustration and sadness all at the same time. Also, the voice actors really nail the Dorian scene.
I’ve never played a Dragon Age game (I bought DA II but I keep forgetting to play it) and even without knowing any of the context, that line really hit hard. The voice actor delivered it great.
@@zigzagintrusion That won't be a shock, but as a DA fan, you definitely should play it. Voice acting in all three games is stellar and even in DA2, with its questionable gameplay, you'll find yourself admiring how the story is portrayed, particularly through voice acting. Characters make these experiences actually happen on the screen, especially since I never saw the convos between PC and companions as something visually groundbreaking, most of them consist of just seeing them move their lips. Doesn't matter, though, because the charisma oozes from the screen and captivates you like a spider does a fly.
And that's the biggest problem with woke writing: the characters are never put into a position of hardship or struggle. EVER.
@williamdrum9899 man went under a video about a Bioware game and used the word woke lmao get real
"So... I'm non-binary"
WHO TF STARTS A CONVERSATION LIKE THAT??? I JUST SAT DOWN!
The difference in subtlety is sad
There's nothing subtle about "I prefer the company of men". lol
It's not even subtle, it only looks that way compared to Veilguard. Then again, Dorian would have to literally skip into the room while a banner unfurled in the background, covered with rainbow colored glitter with the words "I'M GAY!" etched across it in order to not look subtle compared to Traash sitting down at a table and blurting out "I'm non-binary!"
Edit: Spelling the name as "Traash" was a typo. But I like it, so I'm leaving it as is.
@@theobell2002 not subtle at all, but the scene has context, his father wants to make a perfect mage, even using blood magic, while Taash is just, yes, I'm non-binary and you're a bad mother for not understanding easily, while his mother already knows she's not perfect, but tries to give her daughter the best when she feels how the Qun could be dangerous to her, and also giving her a good life?????? Dorian in this case SHOULD be mad at his father, but Taash? yes, her mother is bad because... she wasn't raised to be empathetic and understand things when they're not clear??????????
@murono22 Dorian's situation is a lot more understandable and sympathetic. It seems he really looked up to his father and saw him as the epitome of virtue in a society that regularly oppressed the weak. There was a high degree of trust that was broken when his father went to extreme lengths to fix him. A player might even feel justified in telling Dorian to never speak to his father again.
Taash's situation, on the other hand, is nowhere near the same level. They invite their mother over for dinner, then scoff at her dietary choice. They ambush her with a term her mother is clearly unfamiliar with, without any build-up whatsoever. They also make it clear they have no respect for their mother's opinion on the matter, despite her doing her best to understand the situation. Worse yet, unlike with Dorian, Rook just sits there, unable to influence the outcome in any meaningful way.
If anything, the Taash dinner scene is a perfect example of "How not to come out to your family".
If DA:I is putting the message in my hand, DA:V is stamping it with a universe sized clothes iron, thats why I said "difference", the dialogue or content in DA:I isnt peak or anything but good lord it makes me wish for it back with DA:V.
The worst part is that, as Taash's mother says, there is already a term "aqun-athlok" under the Qun for how Taash feels, but they still had to go with the modern version and make her non-binary. Her mother was just trying to understand but Taash is just forcing her to love her without providing any answers and explanations. You cannot demand love if you're not giving it back.
the awkward silence after she said it 😭😭
The difference is Dorian's scene describes the situation, and allows the player to feel out their own thoughts and feelings on the subject. To empathize with Dorian and who he is as a person. Veilguard flat out tells you how to feel, and that you're wrong for not understanding in the first place.
It also respects the established lore within Thedas. It wasn't so much an issue before in both DA 1&2 the prospects of non-binary gender, especially in romance. Their very divine is not required to be a "virgin" and a mirror of Andraste. What they put instead is the premise of how either views cannot be easily subjected to right or wrong without proper context.
The Tevinter Magesterium are power hungry. Like Dorian said, what he was angry wasn't about the non-acceptance of his father that he liked men but the fact that they have to subject each and every generation to a breeding ground just to give birth to a "perfect mage" and the worst part is his father believes he is doing this for his son because they are all part of this so called "legacy".
The issues with the Qun was that it wasn't just a society or race, it's a religion. They try to maximize meritocracy by putting those most capable in the right position and only then will they be given freedom but should still be focused on their "purpose". What Taash was saying is they want to be a part of the Qun but cannot properly do so. The problem then is the execution. Despite being emotion driven, Dorian was able to tell his story why he felt remorse against his family. Meanwhile Taash didn't feel like they really care about what they want to happen. Do Taash wants to serve the Qun properly once they find their identity or was she just a shoe horned character for DEI and pretty much shallow outside of their traits.
I can respect them being called with their preferred pronoun as part of their lore. But what is the context and how did it affect the world and lore at large. DAV felt like a generic RPG that uses the settings of Thedas but nothing more. DA has always been world driven that's why despite how proper or improper your choices are, the consequences are out of the player's control. I understand that they are attempting a "soft reboot" but this feels like they just made the 3 entry worth of history into nothing because apparently everyone is dumb and soulless.
One is a victim, the other one identify as a victim
no one is a victim
well said
@@Maruceroooo i sent it from my mobile, that message was aimed at "kirururik" just under you, i guess the @ didn't work.
that said, you sound really fucking insecure lmao
@@kirururik In this case there absolutely is one, Dorian.
You're just misunderstanding about the reason he's a victime.
He's not a victime because his father or his national culture dosn't agree with his sexuality,
He's a victime because his father ACTIVELY tried to change his mind by force with the use of blood-magic that could have killed his son or worse.
On the other hand, that other character just threw "I'm non-binary", her mom didn't buy it, she left, that's it.
Beside emotional damages, there is no actual harm here, it's a divergence of opinions.
But Dorian? Nah that Boi went through something genuinely dangerous and harmful.
Real fucking danger that could have threatened his life and worse from the one he trusted the most.
Why are they acting like this is some insane conflict.
The mom even doesnt come off as bigoted or toxic, just confused and Traash is being a huge asshole about it.
This take is only possible to have if you have only ever seen this scene on its own.
@krasmasov6852 i own the game, traash is a huge asshole throughout, and you can never call them out on it, you can only be supportive of Traash's selfish behaviour. Sure before this the mom was a bitch but the child takes from its mother.
Also Traash judges people for wearing dresses, mind your own business, Traash.
A shitty character doesnt mean bad writing, but when the shittiness is depicted as not shittiness, it is bad writing imo.
As a matter of fact,Dorian is one of my favorite characters in inquisition. He's actually the male character that I want most to have a bromance relationship with my male inquisitor. Hate how he looked in Failguard and how little he did in that trash.
I'd much rather he had nothing to do with that garbage at all :'D
I refused to believe that Dorian is canon and I refuse to accept Veilguard all in all is canon.
@@ph4kiew Cool, man
If you romance Dorian in inquisition, his look in the credits is his look in Veilguard. It wasn’t created for this; it was actually made cannon in Inquisition.
@@danielvital6836I believe it’s based on his concept art for Inquisition. Same for the younger Solas.
Dorian's characterization invites sympathy, emotion, and a very humanized story. Taash's exists as a gotcha gratification thing.
The funny thing is, whoever wrote this is completely oblivious to how insane this is.
Nothing about this is insane
@@krasmasov6852 For how long have you been writing for Bioware?
I really love Dorian's scene. Unsupportive father is not a big surprise, but when he gets to blood magic stuff this is a whole new level of crap. We all play pretense to fit in, but to forget yourself entirely? That's scary
Yeah using mind control on your own son to get him to obey is so screwed up and petty but fits the universe perfectly.
Essentially Conversion Therapy, but worse somehow.
This comparison is really good I thought about it too, thanks for making the video. The difference in the quality in writing is really clear. Dorian’s writing and voice acting are really good and you actually sympathize with him and it fits within the story. Taash just comes across as a petulant child which would be fine if that’s what they were meant to be but you don’t really have the option to call them out
I honestly think Taash's voice actor or the scene director really failed them that scene.
@@AbstractTraitorHero I think the voice actor did a good job; it was the lines she was paid to read which were awful.
@stephenwithaph1566 Have to disagree. Just listen carefully; the mumbling of words alone is bad imo. I don't consider that to be a mark of a good VA. But I've also only seen this scene, and if the VA was very impassionate here specifically, which would not surprise me, then it might be that she is better otherwise.
Her.
Then why all of you buy all their speech caliing her "they" though? I dont get it
I only ever heard that the writing was bad for Veilguard, but I was in genuine shock when 1:23 came up. You couldn't be any more on the nose than that
The entire point of inviting Taash's mom to dinner here was to tell her that Taash is nonbinary. That's the central purpose lol. Did you not play the game?
I’m not gonna comment on The Veilguard because I haven’t played it and ripping into what I haven’t seen/played feels unfair.
When I experienced the scene with Dorian’s father, I loved it. The reasons for why they fell out go beyond who Dorian takes to bed. It’s the product of Tevinter’s political culture, social stigmas, and deeply-held values being cast aside. Dorian’s father betrayed him, and his anger is entirely justified. Dorian’s father, having now seen just how terribly he betrayed his son, has sought him out in hopes of forgiveness. It’s such a perfect scene that it shocks me.
I also appreciate how neither character uses modern terminology like ‘gay/homosexual’ or ‘conversion therapy’. I’m not against modern language in fantasy settings, but avoiding the obvious words in favor of phrases like “I prefer the company of men” and “you tried to change me” was an inspired choice.
There is a reason Dorian’s story is beloved by the LGBT community. It’s relatable, sympathetic, and tasteful without coming off as preachy or simplistic. More of this, please?
You won't get another story like Dorian's. The people writing LGBT representation these days (except maybe indies) simply aren't capable of understanding what made Dorian's story work. All you get now is slop in the vein of Veilguard. This isn't even limited to AAA gaming- comics, cartoons, and movies are all like this now and have been since 2018 or so
Agreed, if such is the case
I just finished it. I bought it and played it out of respect for the Dragon Age franchise. I wish I spent the 75 hours doing something else. I completed every companion and faction quest, opened every chest, explored every corner of every explorable part of the game. The actually meaningful story spans what feels like just 2-3 months of time in the game, which can be covered in 12 hours of gameplay. The rest of the gameplay is not worth it. 60$ for just 12 hours isn't worth it. There is some attempt at character development in the companions, but it just so diluted down and bland. It feels like this game was made for kids in that sense. The combat system was nice, could be better, especially how your companions interact with combat. Your companions are basically unkillable, a mechanic which makes fights sometimes really stupid. Also using any spell of your companion triggers a global cooldown, meaning you can't use any of their other spells, so you end up only ever using one spell to combo (there is a trigger/detonation system) with another; this might not be the optimal approach in higher difficulties though, where supportive companion spells might be needed. I can keep going honestly. A very bland game, with no attempt at innovation, regression in quality in some aspects compared to prior games. I wouldn't play it again nor recommend it,.
Someone thought their trauma dump would be brave and inspiring
obvious self insert i agree.
"Is the internet proud of me for treating my mom like evil garbage yet"
Gaider has said that Bioware began to resent its writers and expensive narratives, think its something anyone can do. No understanding that the gameplay was never especially good, it was the narratives that kept people returning. This is the result.
1:24 is this actually in the game ? 😂😂😂
Unfortunately, yes.
And SO much more, embarrassing frankly.
There's also push ups 🤦🏻♂️
@@MelchVagquest 4 or 5 push-ups out of a stated 10, even.
And unavoidable if you want to find all the chests in all regions...
David Gaider, the lead writer for Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age II, wrote Dorian. He also wrote the three DA books, The Stolen Throne, The Calling and Asunder. Of course it's good/better.
He left saying they no longer wanted to pay writers what they are worth. It really shows with the fanfic level of writing on display here.
Bioware either losing or just straight up firing some of it's oldest and greatest Dragon Age writers between Inquisition and Veilguard really shows here
People shat on Inquisition so, so much. They really took good writing for granted. Well, there you go
Inquisitiojn also had issues, but goodlord it got so so much worse.
@@collenjets123 even Origins had issues. People act like it was the perfect game but the gameplay was 99 out of 100 times cast blizzard or some area attack and stay behind a door, fighting against a reskin of the same enemy over and over. But I do agree that Inquisition lost some pure rpg elements from Origins. Both had excellent writing though, can't say the same for Veilguard unfortunately
To be fair inquisitions issues were never its companions more just corypheus being whatever and grinding for power sucking at times
Personally. Inquisition had issues with gameplay and pacing, not voice acting or story telling. In fact, it is as good as Origins. But that grind and vast empty maps with ugly UI elements is/was turn off to this day.
Inquisition is an insane game, so much content, I dont care if theres some empty maps, all the rest is insane
I loved Dorian in Inquisition, maybe my favorite companion. He actually had a personality and wasn't just all about his sexual orientation, although of course that was also a part of him/his story. But he had plenty to offer besides that.
And look how they massacred him in Veilguard. A fucking crime against fashion.
Yes he was so charming and dashing and witty/funny!
The conflict Dorian has with his father actually makes sense, given the culture and the politcs of the society they came from. Taash' conflict with her mother is just drummed up teenage drama.
Dorian doesn’t push it on you or the story, it comes naturally and feels well real unlike the modern era
What pisses me off about Taash’s scene is that their mother is just trying to understand. How can you “jUsT bE hAPpY” for someone without understanding what you should be happy for them about??
Dorian was a super well written character. Also exactly how I imagined someone from Tevinter to be. So good.
They did a good job capturing the utter confusion normal people have when they are met with these crazy concepts.
Also, look at 4:21. Of course, there is no answer you can give where you can side with the mother because the writers are so high on their own product that they don't want to give the player a chance to disagree with their views.
Has Taash’s mom considered a blood magic ritual to make her daughter less dramatic?
The difference is that the Inquisitor can convince Dorian to talk to his dad to reconcile while Rook is just sit there and offer nothing.
The more I think about it, the more I wonder if the writer of Taash’s dialogue was resentful for having to write about the non-binary character and formed that character exactly how he or she feels about non-binary. Taash sounds like a 14-year-old, not like a mature person who can have mature conversations with respect for others. If they felt respect for non-binary people, they surely would have been able to do better than this? Anyone could have done better than this?
I mean, yeah. You can make a character come out as non-binary or whatever else but why make it like this? Why make this like an IRL interaction? It seems the writer forgot they were writing for dark fantasy and not their usual fanfiction
How is it an IRL interaction when you can’t once tell Taash to be nice to her mother?
@abcdefghij337 yeah that would be nice. I mean the mother's even trying to understand the situation so I don't get taash's hostility at all. what I meant was it's written like a coming out dialogue in the real world, our world, and not setting approbiate.
It's really not like a real interaction. Unless by an "IRL interaction" you mean an argument on Twitter where everyone talks like bots that try to tear one another down over stupid crap like micro-aggressions incorrect pronouns.
The dumbest thing about the interaction is her mom is trying to understand and Taash refuses to believe it. The writing was off completely
@truckinandfightin3248 absolutely. The mother is not dismissive at all
Inquisition is not the strongest game in the series, but the characters make me come back to it time and time again.
It is objective tho, Inquisition is my favorite entry - the gameplay was awful, but the writing was the best in all the games for me, as were the characters - mature, complex, and you could go back to the scenes many times, analising them.
@@pativi6643It is my personal favorite as well (I love Origins, had like 10 playthroughs, but it's just dated), I do acknowledge that the game has significant flaws. And 90% of them are EA's fault.
I didn't buy it on launch so some of the bugs were fixed when I got it + I knew to skip the grind in the Hinterlands.
@@masha22092000r Definetly game that benefits from QoL mods, like faster looting, no map wait time or some pretty hair :)
Wait so the Dragon Age world already has a word for people who don't identify with their birth-assigned gender? And the mother accepts that? But the character just says no and argues? This writing makes no sense.
"Don't navigate the subject and try to understand it. Just validate me. Immediately."
The gay stuff in Inquisition walked so that the gay stuff in Veilguard could saunter limpwristedly
The one in Veilguard tripped on its own feet and started shouting at the flat ground.
Dorian scene is really good. There's a really solid drama that driven by the setting of Tevinter. In Tevinter, as Dorian said, you have to merry a random person just to get a better child. And you couldn't decide for yourself who to merry, this women/men is handpicked by your parents. Hence Dorian being gay is such a problem in Tevinter. That's why his father was driven by Tevinter's society and it's rules to such an extreme to use blood magic to change Dorian, which could've ended really bad for Dorian. But at the same time writers makes you sympathise with a father, who realised that he betrayed his child. It doesn't feel forced. It feels really organic in Dragon Age world. And at the same time people who wanted representation got what they wanted.
Tash at the same time is a member of Qunari society, which is insanely strict and direct with it's rules. I mean, talk to Sten in DAO and you will get a pretty good idea on how their society works. I mean, a non binary? In qunari? I think they had a different word for people like her. And what her mother is talking about? She is qunari, why is she trying to understand her? As a Qunari she would've called her a dumbass, who dosn't respect the Qun and trying to make things more difficult. I mean, one of the reasons why Qun works the way it works, because it's simple, direct and doesn't complicate things. You were born a warrior, then you are going to live as a warrior for the whole life. You were born a craftsman, then it's your job for the whole life. No need to change it, no need to strive for more. That's how Sten explained it and felt that everyone who doesn't think that way are the weird ones. But in DAV we are trying to make a drama out of it? In strict society such as this? Im sorry, but Tevinter have much more freedom, that's why i can believe there's more freedoms and that's why a person like Dorian might exist.
I haven't played DAV, so maybe im missing some context. I would love to believe that. But I don't wanna believe that they've ruined Qunari. They always were so controversial, but at the same time some of their ideas on how their society works was pretty interesting.
The fact that Shathann tried to understand her daughter shows that she really cares. You can't tell that to Taash though, it's just four different flavors of "don't worry, your mom is wrong".
sten's issue in DA:O is that female characters were fighting while being ACKNOWLEDGED AS FEMALE. that was what broke his brain. most of this is Inquisition retcon, but Iron Bull explains that in the Qun, if you are a good fighter, you are a man. period. it doesn't matter if you were born with female parts. if you fight, you are male. if you have a female role in the qun, you are female, it doesn't matter what's between your legs(my HC is that if Bull wasn't such a good fighter from a young age, he might have ended up a Tamassran which is a female role, thanks to his caretaking needs and mother hen tendencies. tamassrans also assign various roles to individual qunari which fits with his intelligence brain). in the qun, your role IS your gender IS your identity - which is carried over from Origins, where Zevran has banter with Sten where he states categorically that "sten" is actually Sten's RANK, not his NAME(a qunari inquisitor, when meeting iron bull for the first time, can acknowledge him as "sten" as well). which was a neat bit of rewriting if you ask me. it technically is a retcon, but it doesn't FEEL like a retcon because the logic of the earlier information carries over.
if Taash had stayed in the qun, they likely would have been acknowledged as male. I'll grant the non binary bit would be difficult for qun brains to handle, because to them all roles are gendered so i can imagine that having someone who is NEITHER gender might be difficult for them to fathom, but as to what Qunari lore existed prior to Veilguard... Taash would have been able to be a male in qun society.
Taash didn't grow up in Qunari society and isn't a member of it. her mother did grow up under the Qun but ran away with Taash when she was born. she did it because Taash is a firebreather and so Shathann was afraid they would make her a berserker in the Antaam. aside from that as far as I've seen Shathann still follows the Qun but Taash is more liberal and doesn't respect the Qun as much because she grew up in Rivain and had influence from non-Qunari people. it also seems like she's being a teen rebel and I thought so because her whole character is written like she's 15 but apparently the devs said she's in her early 20s. it makes sense that her mom doesn't understand the whole nonbinary thing, as a Qunari she doesn't see "neither" as an option
@@sunshine-dz6xj A non-binary person in qunari society would be considered a worthless lazy outcast. Their roles in society are tied to gender meaning if you choose none you also refuse to take on a role benefiting society. So Taash and the whole "being unsure of gender" would only make sense if Taash would feel BOTH as a man and a woman. Trying to take on multiple roles as a single person. Instead they chose the completely opposite because of modern sensibilities and a narcissistic self insert.
in the tiniest bits of fairness, they are outside of the Qun so they are operating on different tandards, though in aprt their expereinces.
it doesn't change that nonbinary wouldn't even exist as a word in their world. dorian doesn't use the term homosexual, cause it doesn't exist. simply that he 'prefers the ocmpany of men'.
Taash legitimately speaks and acts like a teenager. It's so hard to give a shit
even down to how the scenes end.
"Come on. Don't let food go to waste." *stares at the food, not even reaching for it or a utensil*
One of the best things about the Dorrian scene was how desperate his father seemed to be to reconnect with his son after knowing he fucked up. The facial animations and voice acting got that across very well.
I hadn't seen any footage of Veilguard yet, and It genuinely took me awhile to figure out that the newer game's scene wasn't just an amateur parody sketch about braindead communication.
See, I actually like Dorian. He's one of my favourite characters in DA:I. And he's actually fun to have in the party.
Dorian looks like a grown man. A man who makes his own decisions and is ready to take responsibility for them. Taash looks like a child who can't figure out what kind of sandbox they want to play in. This is just my opinion about these two characters and how they were written.
the mom said she was a scholar and explained that she was thought to look at things logically so first being non binary is very uncommon in this world and instead of going "o well its this" she just went off... in our world maybe it would be weird to say in America but I think the mom never had a chance
Dorian was such a charmer, he oozed character and confidence in such a beautiful way. But it never felt forced, it just felt natural.
I loved to go around with Dorian and Vivienne in my Team. Those two together were like the Fashion Brigade.
Them roasting Solas regarding his fashion crimes (almost as bad as his other crimes) was just the cherry on top
Nah. Not Viv. Iron Bull and Sera please.
@@mayhemmacy1566 Mayhem ensues when those two are together. MAYHEM!
@@chainofheaven I disliked Viv for her bottomless snobbery, but now I am intrigued to try this combo
Dorian's quest - emotional, charged with drama
Taash's quest - Obnoxious, annoying
And both are realistic.
@@orgaysis it might be realistic for the modern day but its pretty silly in the context of a medieval fantasy.
This scene would make soooo much more sense in something like Mass Effect, here it feels like 1 person in a d&d group that is trying to apply real world logic to feudal nightmare societies and being surprised when people dont know policies/terms that wont be invented for another 2 thousand years
(Also the Qun are fucking insane ruthless zealots, there is no way i can believe they wouldnt just kill someone on the spot for being a bit different, like they had to pick the absolute least plausible race in the game for this too)