They debated like Christians. Good to see. I was taught dispensationalism and held to it for 10 years. I have been amillennial for 4 years now. I don’t take a partial preterist view like Kieth, but I appreciate many of the points he made. Good job guys.
I find it ironic that the dispensationalist makes such a huge point about “not reading someone else’s mail” when that is precisely what they do with the Olivet discourse. 😄
I love this debate. Two friends and brothers in Christ having a good time while debating a good topic. Both of you made good points, and I hope more stuff like this follows in the future. Maybe a debate on Calvinism next time?
I do hope that Spencer looks into the arguments for amillennialism more. It sounded like he was very ignorant of the other eschatological positions. It was clear right off the bat that he was reading his tradition into the text as well as falling victim to what Mark Ward calls "false friends" in the KJV where a old English use of a word means something different than what we think it means. For instance "study to shew thyself approved" does not mean have a bible study. The word study there means to work diligently. When he went straight to the dispensational proof text of "rightly dividing the word" he read his dispensational position right into that verse without understanding that he was doing that. That verse is not about dividing different dispensations at all. It simply means to rightly understand the word of God. I see the KJV fundies using that verse all the time and it has absolutely nothing to do with dispensations or dividing between Jews, Greeks, and the Church as he said. He would really benefit from studying the different eschatological positions to challenge his views. Even if he didn't walk away from it having changed his views it was obvious that he's never wrestled with the other positions. I have a very similar journey as you brother Keith, in coming to an amillennial view from a premillennial understanding. My friend and mentor as a new believer wrote a book on understanding the end times and he was working on putting together a teaching workshop to go through the material and help people to understand eschatology from a dispensational premillennial view and so he was practicing his teaching using me as a student. At first I saw all these puzzle pieces fitting together and I was so excited and things were making sense but then when I was just reading through scripture especially the gospel of John and 1 Thessalonians it just started to unravel. The first question that started the unraveling for me was when Jesus was talking to Martha about Lazarus and Martha says "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day" so it shows that the resurrection happens on the last day. Then I went to 1 Thessalonians and it says the same thing, that the dead rise when Christ returns. The dispensational premillennial view cannot deal with those passages legitimately in their context. They have to go to other proof text passages in Daniel 11 to bring in a 7 year tribulation that divides the coming of Christ and the resurrection into two separate events which is not even what is really happening in Daniel 11. I think it is so hard for them to see it because it really is an entire systematic theology. There is a whole system that fits together with that view which has its own hermeneutics rules and when you've been learning the entire Bible under that system it shapes how you view certain things and its a very tightly woven system. It's so prevalent that most people who are taught under it don't even know that they are being taught a system. For instance. Spencer said that he just read the Bible and came to those conclusions on his own but that's not true. He sat under preaching as a new believer and learned the Bible under that system so when he sees those things it's because he was being taught that system even if not aware of it. I do not say this in any disrespect or condemnation. I grew up in a church and realize now looking back that so many things were steeped in that tradition so even as a unconverted sinner in rebellion in my teen and adult life I still had some sort of left behind series understandings of eschatology. Most people don't even know there are other views. They just think that is the Christian view. I do hope it challenges him to at least spend the time looking into the other views to be challenged. I do want to say all of this in charity and brotherly love. There are still a lot of things I don't know and I know that I'm not the man I ought to be and fall so short in so many ways.
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 Revelation 20: 7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven2 and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
I am a Pre-mil dispensational and I am a millennial. I am the only pre-mil person in my church. I just see pre-dispy as the most likely scenario from my own Bible study. I just listened to my Pastors do a 30 week study on Revelation that was A-mil, but I am still firmly in the pre-dispy camp. I will say that Zionism is a major flaw of many pre-mil folks.
@@Orangeyoshis actually I discovered my son is mid-millennial and my grand kids are post-millennial. I guess I will just have to trust God to get all back together when Jesus returns. However I am pre-trib.
Just found your channel recently by coming across this video. I'm not a dispensationalist,altho i used to be and lean more the amillenial view now but that was an really great and humble debate rather than hearing and seeing name calling,anger and making this a salvation issue. I watch brother Spencer's videos on regular and always really enjoy and glean something from them!
Josh Howard is such a great guy. Very gracious and a good moderator. I watch his channel Eschatology Matters all the time. They have great guests and discussions on there.
@@chrisjohnson9542 I totally agree. What's so disappointing to me is all these so called prophecy channels that are dispensational have hundreds of thousands of followers and views, while Eschatology Matters, a very orthodox one, has so few. It just shows how much deception there is in the professing church. Very disheartening.
Do you know what the scriptures say about his binding? It says he’s bound to no longer deceive the nations. Is it possible that he has been bound in that way so that the gospel has gone from the Jews to the gentiles? Revelation 20:3 [3] and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer….
Good debate. I was raised dispensational, pre-trib, pre-Millenial and like Keith have moved to an a-mill view. Here are some of my thoughts. Spencer Smith asserts that 1 Thes. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 are about the pre-trib rapture of the Church while Matt. 24 (and the parallel accounts of the Olivet Discourse) are about the nation of Israel. I'm curious about how he limits references to the elect to the nation of Israel because the phrase is used numerous times throughout the New Testament for Christians, but that wasn't teased out in this debate. But here's an even bigger problem with that perspective. Matt. 24:31 states that "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (For the record, I interpret the Olivet Discourse in a partial preterist manner while also believing references such as this one involve what's commonly called, "prophetic telescoping" which is an allusion to an event in the distant future in the context of prophecy that has a near term fulfillment. This would be similar Isaiah 7:14 being about the virginal conception and birth of Jesus in the midst of a sign given to King Ahaz about contemporary geo-political issues, that being Israel and Syria's alliance against the southern kingdom of Judah.) Matthew references the "great sound of a trumpet." Recall that Spencer Smith believes that this pertains to the nation of Israel during a future 7 year tribulation period that occurs following the rapture of the church. This understanding of the dispensationalist timeline is crucial to understanding the problem. Because Smith believes that 1 Cor. 15 is about the pre-tribulation rapture, while Matt. 24 is about a later post-tribulation "rapture" for (only Jewish?) tribulation saints. The issue is that 1 Cor. 15:52 speaks of this event happening "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Notice that this is the "last" trump[et]! If this is a separate event from the Second Coming that occurs BEFORE the Second Coming, why does Paul describe this as the "last" trump[et]? Is the trumpet sounding in Matt. 24:31 even more "last" than the trumpet that will sound at the pre-tribulation Rapture? The most natural reading is obviously that these two verses (Matt. 24:31 and 1 Cor. 15:52) are describing the SAME event, to wit the catching up of all the saints to meet Christ in the air at his glorious appearing and second coming. In attempting to "rightly divide," Smith has created a division where one CANNOT exist. The other major issue that moved me away from dispensationalism is the resurrection. The Scriptures seem to suggest that the resurrection of the dead is one, singular event, as opposed to an event that occurs in stages over a long period of time. Dispensationalists like Spencer Smith believe that the first stage of the resurrection occurs at the pre-trib Rapture, in which deceased Christians are caught up to meet Christ in the air. The second phase occurs at the conclusion of the tribulation with the resurrection of tribulation saints prior to the inauguration of the Millenial Kingdom. The third and final phase comes at the conclusion of the Millenium and prior to the inauguration of the eternal state. This contradicts numerous Biblical references to the resurrection as one event that happens all at once. During the debate Foskey referenced Dan. 12:2, " And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Foskey also referenced several parables which speak of the final judgment. To this I would add Acts 24:15b, "[T]here shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." There is one resurrection event of BOTH the just and unjust. The final nail in this coffin is Jesus' own teachings on the resurrection of the dead. "Marvel not at this: for the HOUR is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." According to Jesus, all the dead, the righteous and the wicked, the just and the unjust will occur at a single hour. This has to refer to a single event that will occur at "the last day" (John 6:39-54, 11:24, 12:48). This by itself refutes the rapture as an event separate and distinct from the Second Coming! Spencer Smith emphasized a "literal" hermeneutic at various times in the debate, but there is simply no way to stretch the single hour spoken of by our Lord to encompass a three-phased resurrection spanning over 1007 years (the time from the purported pre-trib rapture to the conclusion of the Millenial Kingdom on dispensationalist reckoning). The number 1000 is highly symbolic, and is used symbolically throughout Scripture ("For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills." - Psalm 50:10). You cannot insist that the 1000 year reign of Christ mentioned in Rev. 20 be interpreted literally while at the same time, taking the reference of Christ to the final resurrection of all occurring in a single hour figuratively. It just doesn't work. Dispensationalism creates artificial distinctions where none actually exist, and this is then foisted upon the text to make the system seem coherent. Good job to both debaters. I appreciate other things that Spencer Smith says in spite of my disagreement on eschatology.
When Christ comes back for the final battle believers are on white horses.....Rev says that "heaven was opened" ....implying we are already in there....also there is no instructions for the church leading upto trib and then the church isn't mentioned at all during the trib time....seems pretty easy to understand if you read what's there
Enjoyed it very much; found it very edifying. Well done. Would love for y’all to discuss/debate other parts of eschatology. Specifically the millennium; is it. A literal 1000 years or metaphorical.
This was so fun and informative. It was great to see the love of Christ displayed between 2 men that disagree. My eschatology changed from PreMill to AMill about 3 years ago when a friend sent me a link to Voddie Bauchams Revelation series and that was it for me. So many things clicked and made sense that didn’t before. Joel Beeke also has a great series on Revelation that helped solidify the AMill position for me. Thanks and God bless
I'm surprised one of the "slam dunks" against the Pre-Tribulational Rapture in 1 and 2 Thessalonians wasn't even mentioned. 1. The apostle Paul describes the Rapture/Second Coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. 2. The Church at Thessalonica “between the letters” panicked and thought the Rapture/Second Coming of Jesus Christ might have happened without them. 3. Paul assured them in his second letter that the Rapture/Second Coming had not happened, and that before it occurs, the “man of lawlessness” (Antichrist) would have to first appear (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). There are NO verses in Scripture that talk about a separate, secret, Pre-Trib Rapture. Biblically, the Rapture and the Second Coming are one event that occurs after the Great Tribulation.
No 2 Thessalonians 2 says that the "Day of the Lord" will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed. It does not say that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him will not occur until these events take place, but the "Day of the Lord", read the passage again carefully. The Day of the Lord when spoken of in scripture is always pictured as judgement, destruction, darkness, a day of WRATH! The scriptures never teach "our being gathered to Him" as the Day of the Lord. Joel 2:31 says, "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the great and awe-inspiring Day of the LORD comes." When does the Day of the Lord come, well after the apostasy comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed AND after the sun is turned to darkness and the moon to blood. When does that occur in Matthew 24? “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days: The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken."
Ahhh y’all missed a great opportunity with the last question! Why does the rapture matter? Because Eschatology Matters! Great discussion! I would point out to brother Spencer that Jesus used “kingdom of heaven” and “kingdom of God” interchangeably, Matt. 19:23-24, just saying. Anyway, great discussion.
@Scribeintheink does Christ’s return matter? Does the judgment matter? Does his ridding the world of sin matter? Those are all topics of eschatology. So according to you eschatology does matter. I’m glad we agree.
This was excellent! Thanks for modeling such great brotherly love within disagreement. I was raised in churches that held a dispensational view and never knew there were other views until honestly very recently. It coincided with me learning how to study the Bible and being introduced to studying in its literary context, actually. I’m still learning, but considering covenantal views on Israel and the church have been so incredibly encouraging to my faith. Seeing myself as part of the one redeemed people of God, and removing the fear that came with the idea of a pre-trib rapture and fighting in the battle of Armageddon and all of that, has increased my gratitude and peace. I lean reformed/covenantal and amil now, although I’m still studying this topic. And I still have many dispy brothers and sisters in Christ who I love dearly!
Good debate! It's encouraging to see two pastors with very wide differences in their beliefs stay charitable toward each other and simply plead their case for why they believe what they believe. And i do believe the king got his suplex in on his opponent. The set up was when pastor Smith admitted his position is not found in early church history, and the execution came after he was asked by pastor Foskey: Is this doctrine so planly taught in the Bible, that someone who had never read the Bible before, would come to this conclusion on their own without being lead to it by someone else? Spencer replyed - it was plain to him as he read the Bible.
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 Thank you for the question friend and it's a simple answer. Since we the saints of Christ will be gathered to him at His return as 1 Thessalonians 4 verse 17 teaches, and since Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 verse 1 thru 4 is telling the church that before the day of the Lord can occur the Man of Lawlessness must first come, the answer is: We His Church will raptured to Him after the Man of Lawlessness appears so the Man of Lawlessness comes first. Now where we will differ I assume is in the details and understanding of what happens in between those two events.
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634the rapture itself is something that needs to be examined, the rapture to leave is not something that is historically taught nor is it found in the original language, this is a twisting of English language in our own terms and thoughts , ( in my own opinion and thought ) In my opinion, it is a greeting if we be lifted but not a rapture. The dead will raise in a resurrection and we meet our LORD GOD SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AS THE BRIDE READY FOR ITS GROOM
Great debate! Spencer won because he has the correct view! All the evidence suggests the church will not go thru the tribulation, Rev 3:10-11 we will be kept from the hour of trial, Rev 4 the church is seen in heaven (24 elders) before the tribulation begins in chapter 6. 1 Thes 5 "that day" the Day of the Lord will not overtake believers & we are not appointed to wrath, Jesus referencing Lot, how he was removed from Sodom before God's wrath fell. All points to Pre-trib. Jesus' return & the Day of the Lord is a fearful event but when Paul speaks of Christ's return for Christians its a blessed event.
It happens after this. ”Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.“ II Thessalonians 2:1-4 NKJV
@@cloudx4541 Yes, the falling away comes first which we are currently living through most likely. Once we are gathered then the antichrist can be revealed once the restrainer is taken out of the way which is the holy spirit working in and through the Christian church on the earth.
Just finished a 25 part teaching on Revelation. Chuck Missler . He goes off on a couple wild rides, but his main teaching was awesome and completly based on scripture. Was well worth the time
I definitley thought King Keith won this debate, but Spencers closing statement was a good reminder that if someone's interpretation is keeping them on track to faithfully be obedient to the gospel then God bless. One day our path of sanctification will be complete and we'll know it all, but not in this life.
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 To my understanding, the simple answer is after. I did appreciate Keith bringing up the misinterpretation of the prophecies of Jesus, because I strongly feel in hindsight we will understand perfectly, but the exact details are at this time easy to misconstrue. I have heard a good arguement that the antichrist spirit has been working against us for sometime. What is your understanding of scripture?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 This is one piece of the prophecy that can be interpreted many ways. The preterist will say he is roman general Titus defiling the temple before it's fall in 70 ad. I was formerly taught that it was the antichrist that will be a singular man made known shortly before Jesus return. I now hold to the view that stays true to the concepts of "already but not yet" and that prophecy holds true through all time in more than one way (in many cases). I think we should be aware of the antichrist spirit and it's desire to defile God's temple (our bodies) as much as the temple in Jerusalem. Whether or not a singular man is revealed in my lifetime, or a spirit works in many unbeleivers throughout time, I can be sure in the promises of scripture that in this life I need to be alert and depend on Jesus because there is an enemy. Even tribulation will work for good for those who love God :)
If the early church fathers thought the second coming of Christ was imminent, and a few of them did, boy did they get that wrong. 2,000 years later and He still hasn't returned. My historic premill friend thinks it's going to happen in our generation because things "are getting so bad", so could he also be wrong?
Maybe I’m misunderstanding scripture but it seems the apostles THOUGHT the return of Christ was going to be very soon, but they didn’t see his second return, so soon could be a subjective theme. Like I believe that He could come back anytime but I also know it could be thousands of more years before He returns. Maybe I’m wrong in my understanding but that’s kind of how I see it.
@@robertreynolds7123 Sure, he could come back at any time like you said. Some Scripture verses seem to be indicating a soon coming, but many of those aren't actually referring to the Second Advent at the close of history, but other events, such as the soon coming destruction of Jerusalem. We just have to be discerning as to what event is being spoken of as soon coming. That's the trick I guess.
@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 well much like brother Keith Foskey, I believe a lot of what Revalation, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3 were talking about, was accomplished in 70AD, I'm post-mil, so slightly different than Keith, so I'd say there is no rapture, as to the way its normally taught in pre-trib rapture teaching. However I believe that happens on the last and final day of redemptive history, pretty much the way Keith explained it
@@randycadkins Beloved friend in Christ, thank you for the reply. Will we be caught up and gathered together before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
2 Timothy 2.15 NET: "Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately." This is a verse about properly proclaiming the gospel itself, not about distinguishing between various "gospels" in the Scriptures that are targeted toward different audiences.
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 The "rapture" imagery depicts believers as a group of emissaries meeting Christ in the air at his arrival and escorting him to the earth as an honored dignitary, so there's no reason to think that it's an event that precedes anything else. As St. John Chrysostom says in his 8th homily on 1 Thessalonians: *If He is about to descend, on what account shall we be caught up? For the sake of honor. For when a king drives into a city, those who are in honor go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge within. And upon the coming of an affectionate father, his children indeed, and those who are worthy to be his children, are taken out in a chariot, that they may see and kiss him; but those of the domestics who have offended remain within. We are carried upon the chariot of our Father. For He received Him up in the clouds, and “we shall be caught up in the clouds.” Seest thou how great is the honor? and as He descends, we go forth to meet Him, and, what is more blessed than all, so we shall be with Him.*
I feel like spencer smith made a lot of arguments from silence. You would have to apply the same standard to the Gospels and the details that each one includes and omits.
“Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore (sixty) and six.” - Revelation 13:18 Almost nobody has such wisdom. That verse has to be for those who end up getting left behind.
As a recovering dispensationalists, I find that ad nauseam harping on "dividing" the Bible (2 Tim 2:15) too often ends up dividing a verse from its context. For example, Smith kept repeating that the details of Matt 24 differ from 1 Thes 4 prove they're separate events. While I agree (though not in the way Smith distinguishes them, i.e. 70 AD vs. 2nd coming), the differences could also be simply due to their addressing different audiences for different purposes, akin to the variants of details of the same event in different Gospels. In Matthew, Jesus' discourse is in answer to the disciples' question specifically regarding the signs of his coming (24:3). Paul on the other hand, was encouraging a church whose members were fearful of having missed the resurrection and worried about believers who had died...very different purposes and contexts. Like the old saying: A text without a context is a pretext. Nice job by both debaters, though the moderator could have been better.
The disciples ask 3 questions in Mt 24 and Jesus goes on to answer them. The first question was answered in 70ad. The second question will be answered during the tribulation period. The third question will be answered after the 1000 year reign of Christ. There are six parables that follow and there are two parables as responses to each of the three questions.
There really is no debate to be had. The bible is very clear that tribulations and great tribulation occur before he returns. The bible warns not to let teachers take you captive by empty philosophy.... When someone's theology requires an appeal to translational variants and avoids context you got to walk away and pray for their repentance. Don't join in they work, they are working for their own edification.
If it's "very clear", why was it unheard of until 1830? It came about via a charismatic-like vision by a young woman, Margaret MacDonald, who influenced John Darby. It was later popularized by Lewis Sperry Chafer and C.I. Scofield in the latter's reference Bible. Its origin, along with its not being clearly taught in Scripture, should give its adherents pause.
I have no idea but I've only read the revelation twice. So I'm starting this and hoping to have insight. Edit: I like Voddie Bauchams sermons on the revelation but that's just him going over the problems that arose in the churches in the letters. At least the four I've made it through so far.
Gracious debate, well moderated, and Spirit filled. We do not divide over this but we must test it by the Scriptures. Pre-Mil is solidified by Is 65, Ez 40-48, and Rev 20 but Pre-Mil does not, repeat does not, necessitate a ‘pre-trib’ rapture. God’s Wrath is what we are promised deliverance from and His wrath does not begin until the seventh seal is opened, after the midpoint (abomination of desolation), and after the great martyrdom of the saints (5th seal). We are caught up, saved, raptured just before the wrath is unleashed. Daniel 9, 11-12, Joel 2, Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Rev 6-7, 1 Thess 4-5, and 2 Thess 2, etc all lay out the exact same timeline for the 70th week and there are 0 references in any of them to a pre-70th week rapture. We are saved from wrath, not from earthly persecution, suffering, or tribulation... we are promised it. Do not fear it, steel yourselves and your families and your congregations, we will shine as the stars of heaven when holding to our testimony (Dan 12) and the Spirit will give us utterance, welcome it as Luke 21 says, and lift up your eyes because in your suffering in that day you will know your redemption draws near. God Bless.
Started out pre-mil because that was the stand of the church I came to Christ in. That changed as I studied and grew. As things stand now, you could call me a partial preterist and a Pan-Millenial. It will all pan out in the end. I believe God hasn't revealed everything to us for HIS reasons. We have enough trouble dealing with the truth's He has revealed. Just look around you. I've been a fan of Brother Spenser for some time now, though I have disagreements with him. I recently came across Brother Keith and enjoy his takes and agree with him on much. I thank God for both of these Brothers and I get disappointed when people get so incensed over this issue and start anathametising any who differ. Praise God these two men are adults and can act as brothers in the Lord should.
@@Jaymus71490 Dear friend in Christ, thank you for the reply. Can you also please clear our doubts of the verse in which our beloved Apostle Paul says, "that day shall not come except the son of PERDITION be revealed"? May grace abound towards us, amen!
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 certainly! I believe that verse (2Thes. 2) refers to the 2nd coming, not the rapture. The Thessalonians thought they were in the tribulation, and Paul was assuring them that they were not in the tribulation yet.
@@Jaymus71490 I am sorry, I don't understand. Please be patient dear friend, I am a slow learner. Can you please share with me what the Holy Spirit means by "THE 2ND COMING" in VERSE 2?
Does 1st Corinthians C 15 not say that at the LAST TRUMPET? This is after the tribulation. “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”
As a post tribber, I would give Spencer some good points that can seem convincing to those wh ohave not studied scripture. Obviously, I don't buy it. I used to believe in a pre-trib, but the word of truth doesn't need to be divided to the fact that the rapture happens after the tribulation.
Since Keith kept wanting to go to genesis there's a great sermon he should check out from buster seaton called "the gospel preached unto abraham"....outlines everything..... after Isaac(Christ) gets His bride rebekah(rapture of church) then abaraham goes after keturah(isreal 2nd chance/ 144k)(sarah was isreal first chance/abrahams first wife/left to go to gentiles) The first book outlining the same thing that the last book lays out.... pretty neat since God is the Alpha and the Omega....knows the ending from the beginning...etc
Maybe dispensationalists should go to Exodus as a type. The Israelites didn't get "raptured" from Egypt before God sent the plagues. While they were protected from God's wrath during that "tribulation", their persecution increased. Their "rapture" didn't occur until all that was complete.
@@sbs8331 I don't think that applies....the saints are free to go when the rapture takes place....the plagues were sent to Egypt because Pharoah wouldn't let them go......not applicable....similar to the whole argument ...a non pre-trib argument allllmost sounds good but just isn't quite right.....similar to satan transforming into an angel of light....trys to mimic the truth but with his own spin on it......also....rapture and 2nd coming are two separate events.....rapture we go to Him/clouds....2nd coming Christ is literally on earth destroying the false
I am a Bible believing literalist and yes I came to the conclusion of a 7-year tribulation and a clear difference between the church and Israel because that's simply what the Bible teaches and this view is not just 200 years old this view is literally 2000 years old study my friend study
There's a short book from 1945 that emphatically proves from scripture that the events of the rapture and the 2nd coming cannot be separated. They are concurrent. The book is titled The Momentous Event: A Discussion of Scripture Teaching ob the Second Advent , by WJ Grier (128 pages).
He is great at debate, was more prepared, and knows the Bible well. The other fella, not so much. As we say in the South, bless his heart. Dispensationalism is such a horrible, false doctrine. I would go so far as to call it heresy.
@@christalone71 The only trap we have to be alert about is the "snare of the fowler". Dear friend in Christ, there is nothing wrong in brothers and sisters sharing with each other what the Holy Spirit has revealed to them and clearing each other's doubts so that we can escape eternal (you know what).
Spencer Smith I agree with you, but you basically had an opening statement and reiterated it over and over without addressing any rebuttal. It would be great to see someone who like John MacArthur or Dr. Andy woods, if Keith foskey is the "king" of the amillennial position should he be debating the "king" of dispensationalists, to be a fair fight. But even without a fair fight my problem with amillennialism is the waffling of interpretation. The rapture is a concept that can be drawn out through patterns through our scripture as well as the new testament texts. You have no problem doing that with other biblical concepts. The Trinity, Sola scriptura, if your a. And there are, while not many, a handful of references to escaping the wrath to come in the early church, and theology novum is ironic when, you do not agree with infant baptism (I agree with you by the way) which is the traditional position of the Church.
I honestly think when discussing this topic that we need to address hermeneutics, and we need to address the theological covenants undergirding covenant theology because they are found nowhere in Scripture.
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 my brother. Would you please just get to the point that you want to make? It would be faster and better. 👍🏼 I don’t understand why you are asking this question. I answered you. That Paul says the fallen away and the son of perdition happens first. Before the rapture. That’s a fact my brother. So please just explain what you want to?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 this is like the 4th time that I have answered this. Last time and I’ll move on. We are waiting time. Get to the point? Why are you constantly asking the same thing? If you think that I’m wrong about something. Say what you are assuming or thinking. And we can get to the point of what you’re issue is brother? Again. Go back and read my responses to you on your question. You asked “What does the Holy Spirit mean by the revelation of the sin of perdition” my answer is. He is telling us through Paul that the rapture or coming of Jesus Christ will not happen until first the fallen away happens first and the revelation of the son of perdition
No he didn't. It's important to understand just because our oldest copy is 300 AD doesn't mean it was written then. It's a copy not the original. And it clearly happened before Israel was sacked in 70AD. Also that would make John over 90 years old. If you go all the way to 300 AD he'd be a couple 100 years old
@person6768 ...you are misinformed... it is well known that John wrote Revelation around 90 A.D.. on the aisle of Patmos. You would know that if you personally studied it.... God bless
@ihiohoh2708 the quote from Keith was Revelation was written before the temple destruction in 70ad. I thought it was a well-known fact that it was written after. God bless brother
Spencer follows Darby & Scofield, who popularized a johnny-come-lately doctrine invented by a woman who has a charismatic-like vision. Keith follows the Scriptures in the same way that Bible believing pastors and teachers have for centuries.
@@sbs8331 I believe the idea of dispensations predates both of those people, but I definitely agree that dispensationalism is most certainly a 19th century invention. This is kind of the problem with radical reformers though. People are so focused on their *personal interpretations* of the Bible that they completely neglect all of historical Christianity. Yes, the Bible is the highest authority; but that does not mean we disregard everything that was unanimous among ALL early church fathers. This is what the original Reformers held to. This is why you see today the resurgence of early heresies such as denying the Trinity.
What did they accomplish as far as the events of the book of Revelation? I would love to do an explanation, of the events of the book of Revelation, and cover in scripture the second coming, and the rapture, by actually going into scripture to do it in the book of Revelation itself. I have been teaching Revelation for 27 years now, and my videos are on TH-cam under the title. Pt1 the pre wrath rapture and the third coming of Jesus. To find the next video just type in what part your looking for like pt2 pt3 ECT and then type in the rest of the title. No order of Revelation at all was given.
You totally missed the distinction the brother made. In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile. The middle wall is still firmly in place unless one is in Christ. As proven by the correct hermeneutical eschatological view pretrib rapture of the church, premill return of Christ. The Jew is still with us, they are the whole reason for the great tribulation.
Hey brother, thanks for the kind words about my channel. I could not find the thread of our conversation in this comment section anymore, and I am not sure if it was taken down by Keith or deleted by you on accident. Either way, may we all do more studying of God's word to be faithful to rightly handle the text and be better bereans.
@@davidalvarado6420 yes, I removed that comment because it wasn’t made in good faith. It was a total misrepresentation and that’s not good, lol. The reason I remarked on your channel is that most responses to any of my comments that seem to be somewhat critical are people that don’t even promote Godly content or character. It’s a pleasure to interact with people of genuine faith. Faith that informs their everyday life. Although, it’s becoming quite rare to do so.
@@Micah4_12 Did you want to repost my comment so that others may have the information for themselves even though your comment was not made in good faith as believers should be okay with admitting when they are wrong and correcting their position when out of alignment with the whole counsel of God.
I see that there is a problem when you think the rapture and the second coming are the same Luke 21:35-36and in Revelation when John saw saints in white that no man can number. We a already in heaven the second coming hasn't. 😮 happened yet
you dont read very well. Revelation 7 says ... 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. THEY ARE SERVING GOD IN HIS TEMPLE Revelation 15 says ... 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. NO MAN enters the temple UNTIL THE PLAGUES ARE DONE. Proving the great multitude don't serve God in His temple until after the rapture at vial number 7. Revelation 16 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. stupid people dont study their bible and stupid people will be destroyed Hosea 4 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. .
Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
A much more telling verse that nobody mentions, yet is also quite important is this one: "Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore (sixty) and six.” Almost none of, if any of, the believers of the Church age have such wisdom.
I commend unto anyone who would to read the book REVELATION by Dr. Gerald Stevens. It isn't your average escstology book and he doesn't have your average view. It is steeped in historical information and data of all kinds going back to the early church historical context, following the realms of thought of the middle ages, reformation, colonial period etc. even if you disagree with Dr. Stevens I think you will find it fascinating
01:23:30 I can't stand that understanding of what it means to be a "convert." Ugghhhhh like it's just a switch you turn on whenever you muster the desire to lift your arm. Groooosssssssss
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 if you listened, the word often used to symbolize the "Rapture" is known as people going to welcome their King to town. Its not to get swept away out of town but to welcome in royalty, which is why the rapture is being caught up to return w The Lord, not to hang out for 7 years.
Everything happened in 70 AD? And John was banished to Patmos in 90 AD Revelation written in 96 AD or around that time and John saying these things are to come? So How could this been already happened in 70 AD before it was written?
@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 before the Anti-Christ is released Revelation chapter 5:9-11 John sees the the 24 elders and the Church around the throne then in chapter 6 the Anti-Christ is released in the 1st seal. These people who say we have to go through the "Tribulation" (Jacob's trouble) always forget about the Judgment seat of Christ so when does that happen if we have to go through this time of Tribulation?
@@jonathansmith7377 Dear friend in Christ, thank you for the reply. Can you also please clear our doubts of the verse in which our beloved Apostle Paul says, "that day shall not come except the son of PERDITION be revealed"? May grace abound towards us, amen!
@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 yes keep reading down till verse 7 he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. Let meaning hinder the he is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit hinders the Anti-Christ until he be taken out of the way, the he who be taken out of the way is the body of Christ. Lots of people say the he is the Holy Spirit is the he but that's impossible u can't remove the Holy Spirit, but Holy Spirit is hindering the Anti-Christ until the body of Christ is taken out of the way. U will also hear the he is talking about the Man of Sin is the he and the he is hindering the Son of perdition and he can't be revealed until the man of sin is taken out of the way which makes no sense because they the same person and would mean that he's in control and not God which the bible does not teach.
@@jonathansmith7377 I am sorry, I don't understand. Please be patient dear friend, I am a slow learner. Can you please share with me whether the Holy Spirit is referring to our rapture or something else in VERSE 1?
The dead in Christ rise first...that's a resurrection. There are 4 witnesses, including Paul, who confirm that there is only 2 total resurrections and 1 resurrection of the righteous. And John tells us that this one resurrection of the righteous includes tribulation martyrs, which means nobody in Christ is raising up before the tribulation. Without a 3rd resurrection being made up & forced into the Text, pre trib is totally unworkable and collapses. Do not be deceived by anyone about this. Daniel 12:2 King James Version 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel says only 2 total. John 5:28-29 King James Version 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Jesus says only 2 total. Acts 24:15 King James Version 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Paul tells a gentile Roman governor there's only 2 total and only 1 of the just and he does so AFTER he wrote Thessalonians & Corinthians. Which means there is no secret 3rd resurrection as part of the "mystery" that he was given to take to the gentiles. Unless of course you're prepared to espouse the idea that Paul "forgot" to mention that 3rd resurrection here in Acts 24, and subsequently blew a golden witnessing opportunity while speaking to this gentile Roman governor?? Revelation 20:4-6 King James Version 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. John confirms only 2 total and only 1 for the righteous and it includes tribulation martyrs, which means nobody in Christ is raising up before the tribulation. You cannot come to a pre trib rapture without violating the commands in Revelation 22:18-19. Pre trib ADDS a non existent 3rd resurrection to the Text while simultaneously TAKING AWAY Matthew 24, Mark 13, & 19 chapters of Revelation from the church. Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 18:7 King James Version 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. American churchianity glorifies herself & lives deliciously and her pre trib rapture heresy promises her that she will escape earth before the beginning of sorrows. Pre trib is mystery Babylon doctrine, and yet Spencer Smith makes videos railing against mystery Babylon...oh the irony!
The only way anyone comes up with an entire doctrine and system with the dispensational rapture is if they are taught it - period. There is one people of God, both Jew and Gentile alike in Christ Jesus.. praise the LORD..ALL Glory is His. I think most American Christians first come across the Pre-trib idea and as we grow and the Lord shows us, we grow out of that and into more sound Biblical eschatology -- Hahahaha :D Love y'all brothers! There is no pre-trib rapture, only the RESURRECTION at the LORD's return - AMEN!
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 RESURRECTION DAY = THE LAST DAY👇 John 6 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 11 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. RESURRECTION DAY = THE LAST DAY☝ THIS IS RESURRECTION DAY THIS IS THE LAST DAY👇 1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. .
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 THERE IS NO DEBATE IF YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE The debate comes from a large group of truth deniers causing division in the body of Christ endure to the end not 7 years before the end. not 3.5 years before the end .
The rapture is related to Greek philosophy for the tickling of the ears. Jesus' death, resurrection, ascension, and return are how God is and will fulfill his promise to Abraham in Genesis 12. All other predictions are funny business. 1 Corinthians 13.1-3 says all of this is noise.
I understand why amill and post-mill was a more traditional held belief, because what about the jews and their unbelief , but once 1948 happened and now their is a literal Isreal in the same place as it was in the OT times that is elephant in the room is hard to displace the rapture. All puns intended
They def don’t understand the nation of Israel and prophecies in the OT that were fullfilled had a literal fulfilling, maybe some had a duel mode as well, ie topology, spiritual, etc. but non the less they were literal
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 The rapture is when the Lord Himself descends from heaven to raise the dead. 1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. There is only one day set aside for the resurrection of the dead. John 6 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. so you tell me, is the last day before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 Its the pre tribulation rapture worshipers that CAUSE DIVISION in the body of Christ because they refuse to believe the truth.
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They debated like Christians. Good to see. I was taught dispensationalism and held to it for 10 years. I have been amillennial for 4 years now. I don’t take a partial preterist view like Kieth, but I appreciate many of the points he made. Good job guys.
I find it ironic that the dispensationalist makes such a huge point about “not reading someone else’s mail” when that is precisely what they do with the Olivet discourse. 😄
We read it we just don't pay the bill 😎
I love this debate. Two friends and brothers in Christ having a good time while debating a good topic. Both of you made good points, and I hope more stuff like this follows in the future. Maybe a debate on Calvinism next time?
I do hope that Spencer looks into the arguments for amillennialism more. It sounded like he was very ignorant of the other eschatological positions. It was clear right off the bat that he was reading his tradition into the text as well as falling victim to what Mark Ward calls "false friends" in the KJV where a old English use of a word means something different than what we think it means. For instance "study to shew thyself approved" does not mean have a bible study. The word study there means to work diligently. When he went straight to the dispensational proof text of "rightly dividing the word" he read his dispensational position right into that verse without understanding that he was doing that. That verse is not about dividing different dispensations at all. It simply means to rightly understand the word of God. I see the KJV fundies using that verse all the time and it has absolutely nothing to do with dispensations or dividing between Jews, Greeks, and the Church as he said. He would really benefit from studying the different eschatological positions to challenge his views. Even if he didn't walk away from it having changed his views it was obvious that he's never wrestled with the other positions. I have a very similar journey as you brother Keith, in coming to an amillennial view from a premillennial understanding. My friend and mentor as a new believer wrote a book on understanding the end times and he was working on putting together a teaching workshop to go through the material and help people to understand eschatology from a dispensational premillennial view and so he was practicing his teaching using me as a student. At first I saw all these puzzle pieces fitting together and I was so excited and things were making sense but then when I was just reading through scripture especially the gospel of John and 1 Thessalonians it just started to unravel. The first question that started the unraveling for me was when Jesus was talking to Martha about Lazarus and Martha says "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day" so it shows that the resurrection happens on the last day. Then I went to 1 Thessalonians and it says the same thing, that the dead rise when Christ returns. The dispensational premillennial view cannot deal with those passages legitimately in their context. They have to go to other proof text passages in Daniel 11 to bring in a 7 year tribulation that divides the coming of Christ and the resurrection into two separate events which is not even what is really happening in Daniel 11. I think it is so hard for them to see it because it really is an entire systematic theology. There is a whole system that fits together with that view which has its own hermeneutics rules and when you've been learning the entire Bible under that system it shapes how you view certain things and its a very tightly woven system. It's so prevalent that most people who are taught under it don't even know that they are being taught a system. For instance. Spencer said that he just read the Bible and came to those conclusions on his own but that's not true. He sat under preaching as a new believer and learned the Bible under that system so when he sees those things it's because he was being taught that system even if not aware of it. I do not say this in any disrespect or condemnation. I grew up in a church and realize now looking back that so many things were steeped in that tradition so even as a unconverted sinner in rebellion in my teen and adult life I still had some sort of left behind series understandings of eschatology. Most people don't even know there are other views. They just think that is the Christian view. I do hope it challenges him to at least spend the time looking into the other views to be challenged. I do want to say all of this in charity and brotherly love. There are still a lot of things I don't know and I know that I'm not the man I ought to be and fall so short in so many ways.
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
Afterwards.@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 Revelation 20: 7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven2 and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
@@morefiction3264 Oh thank you so much. So, will we be raptured only after the son of perdition is revealed?
@@Mojo32 Let us praise God for you being awake. Dear friend in Christ, what does the Holy Spirit mean by the revealing of the son of perdition?
As a boomer I am a pre- millennial and my grand kids are ah-millennial.
I enjoyed the debate.
I am a Pre-mil dispensational and I am a millennial. I am the only pre-mil person in my church. I just see pre-dispy as the most likely scenario from my own Bible study. I just listened to my Pastors do a 30 week study on Revelation that was A-mil, but I am still firmly in the pre-dispy camp. I will say that Zionism is a major flaw of many pre-mil folks.
I’m also a pre-millennial millennial 😂 Though my church is also pre-mil
@@Orangeyoshis
actually I discovered my son is mid-millennial and my grand kids are post-millennial. I guess I will just have to trust God to get all back together when Jesus returns.
However I am pre-trib.
The Lord is merciful dear friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634
You did know we were just having fun with words? But thank you for your truth and love.
Just found your channel recently by coming across this video.
I'm not a dispensationalist,altho i used to be and lean more the amillenial view now but that was an really great and humble debate rather than hearing and seeing name calling,anger and making this a salvation issue.
I watch brother Spencer's videos on regular and always really enjoy and glean something from them!
Josh Howard is such a great guy. Very gracious and a good moderator. I watch his channel Eschatology Matters all the time. They have great guests and discussions on there.
They deserve so many more views. It's very surprising how small the channel is. They do so great and have so many excellent brothers on.
@@chrisjohnson9542 I totally agree. What's so disappointing to me is all these so called prophecy channels that are dispensational have hundreds of thousands of followers and views, while Eschatology Matters, a very orthodox one, has so few. It just shows how much deception there is in the professing church. Very disheartening.
@@chrisjohnson9542 Peace to you, friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
Well these prophecy channels are also promoted by Zionists. That is the problem with the vast majority of dispensationalists.
Satan is NOT bound right now....CLEARLY.
Do you know what the scriptures say about his binding? It says he’s bound to no longer deceive the nations. Is it possible that he has been bound in that way so that the gospel has gone from the Jews to the gentiles?
Revelation 20:3
[3] and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer….
Good debate. I was raised dispensational, pre-trib, pre-Millenial and like Keith have moved to an a-mill view. Here are some of my thoughts. Spencer Smith asserts that 1 Thes. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 are about the pre-trib rapture of the Church while Matt. 24 (and the parallel accounts of the Olivet Discourse) are about the nation of Israel. I'm curious about how he limits references to the elect to the nation of Israel because the phrase is used numerous times throughout the New Testament for Christians, but that wasn't teased out in this debate. But here's an even bigger problem with that perspective.
Matt. 24:31 states that "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (For the record, I interpret the Olivet Discourse in a partial preterist manner while also believing references such as this one involve what's commonly called, "prophetic telescoping" which is an allusion to an event in the distant future in the context of prophecy that has a near term fulfillment. This would be similar Isaiah 7:14 being about the virginal conception and birth of Jesus in the midst of a sign given to King Ahaz about contemporary geo-political issues, that being Israel and Syria's alliance against the southern kingdom of Judah.)
Matthew references the "great sound of a trumpet." Recall that Spencer Smith believes that this pertains to the nation of Israel during a future 7 year tribulation period that occurs following the rapture of the church. This understanding of the dispensationalist timeline is crucial to understanding the problem. Because Smith believes that 1 Cor. 15 is about the pre-tribulation rapture, while Matt. 24 is about a later post-tribulation "rapture" for (only Jewish?) tribulation saints. The issue is that 1 Cor. 15:52 speaks of this event happening "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Notice that this is the "last" trump[et]! If this is a separate event from the Second Coming that occurs BEFORE the Second Coming, why does Paul describe this as the "last" trump[et]? Is the trumpet sounding in Matt. 24:31 even more "last" than the trumpet that will sound at the pre-tribulation Rapture? The most natural reading is obviously that these two verses (Matt. 24:31 and 1 Cor. 15:52) are describing the SAME event, to wit the catching up of all the saints to meet Christ in the air at his glorious appearing and second coming. In attempting to "rightly divide," Smith has created a division where one CANNOT exist.
The other major issue that moved me away from dispensationalism is the resurrection. The Scriptures seem to suggest that the resurrection of the dead is one, singular event, as opposed to an event that occurs in stages over a long period of time. Dispensationalists like Spencer Smith believe that the first stage of the resurrection occurs at the pre-trib Rapture, in which deceased Christians are caught up to meet Christ in the air. The second phase occurs at the conclusion of the tribulation with the resurrection of tribulation saints prior to the inauguration of the Millenial Kingdom. The third and final phase comes at the conclusion of the Millenium and prior to the inauguration of the eternal state. This contradicts numerous Biblical references to the resurrection as one event that happens all at once.
During the debate Foskey referenced Dan. 12:2, " And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Foskey also referenced several parables which speak of the final judgment. To this I would add Acts 24:15b, "[T]here shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." There is one resurrection event of BOTH the just and unjust. The final nail in this coffin is Jesus' own teachings on the resurrection of the dead. "Marvel not at this: for the HOUR is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." According to Jesus, all the dead, the righteous and the wicked, the just and the unjust will occur at a single hour. This has to refer to a single event that will occur at "the last day" (John 6:39-54, 11:24, 12:48).
This by itself refutes the rapture as an event separate and distinct from the Second Coming! Spencer Smith emphasized a "literal" hermeneutic at various times in the debate, but there is simply no way to stretch the single hour spoken of by our Lord to encompass a three-phased resurrection spanning over 1007 years (the time from the purported pre-trib rapture to the conclusion of the Millenial Kingdom on dispensationalist reckoning). The number 1000 is highly symbolic, and is used symbolically throughout Scripture ("For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills." - Psalm 50:10). You cannot insist that the 1000 year reign of Christ mentioned in Rev. 20 be interpreted literally while at the same time, taking the reference of Christ to the final resurrection of all occurring in a single hour figuratively. It just doesn't work. Dispensationalism creates artificial distinctions where none actually exist, and this is then foisted upon the text to make the system seem coherent. Good job to both debaters. I appreciate other things that Spencer Smith says in spite of my disagreement on eschatology.
When Christ comes back for the final battle believers are on white horses.....Rev says that "heaven was opened" ....implying we are already in there....also there is no instructions for the church leading upto trib and then the church isn't mentioned at all during the trib time....seems pretty easy to understand if you read what's there
Spencer Smith is awesome!! I have learned a lot from him as it goes for the new age/occult etc.. He is a brother no question about it!
It's nice to see a friendly conversation.
Can we all just appreciate what a great announcer's voice the presenter has? 😁
This was fun AND informative. Appreciate it
The Lord is merciful dear friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
Enjoyed it very much; found it very edifying. Well done. Would love for y’all to discuss/debate other parts of eschatology. Specifically the millennium; is it. A literal 1000 years or metaphorical.
This was so fun and informative. It was great to see the love of Christ displayed between 2 men that disagree. My eschatology changed from PreMill to AMill about 3 years ago when a friend sent me a link to Voddie Bauchams Revelation series and that was it for me. So many things clicked and
made sense that didn’t before. Joel Beeke also has a great series on Revelation that helped solidify the AMill position for me.
Thanks and God bless
This was the best ever! Love both of you brothers so much.
The Lord is merciful dear friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
I'm surprised one of the "slam dunks" against the Pre-Tribulational Rapture in 1 and 2 Thessalonians wasn't even mentioned.
1. The apostle Paul describes the Rapture/Second Coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
2. The Church at Thessalonica “between the letters” panicked and thought the Rapture/Second Coming of Jesus Christ might have happened without them.
3. Paul assured them in his second letter that the Rapture/Second Coming had not happened, and that before it occurs, the “man of lawlessness” (Antichrist) would have to first appear (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12).
There are NO verses in Scripture that talk about a separate, secret, Pre-Trib Rapture. Biblically, the Rapture and the Second Coming are one event that occurs after the Great Tribulation.
No 2 Thessalonians 2 says that the "Day of the Lord" will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed. It does not say that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him will not occur until these events take place, but the "Day of the Lord", read the passage again carefully. The Day of the Lord when spoken of in scripture is always pictured as judgement, destruction, darkness, a day of WRATH! The scriptures never teach "our being gathered to Him" as the Day of the Lord.
Joel 2:31 says, "The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the great and awe-inspiring Day of the LORD comes."
When does the Day of the Lord come, well after the apostasy comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed AND after the sun is turned to darkness and the moon to blood. When does that occur in Matthew 24?
“Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days:
The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not shed its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the celestial powers will be shaken."
Ahhh y’all missed a great opportunity with the last question! Why does the rapture matter? Because Eschatology Matters! Great discussion! I would point out to brother Spencer that Jesus used “kingdom of heaven” and “kingdom of God” interchangeably, Matt. 19:23-24, just saying. Anyway, great discussion.
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@Scribeintheink does Christ’s return matter? Does the judgment matter? Does his ridding the world of sin matter? Those are all topics of eschatology. So according to you eschatology does matter. I’m glad we agree.
I listened to Keith's podcast...but seeing the outfits of these guys... oh my. Next Level. Great conversation.
This was excellent! Thanks for modeling such great brotherly love within disagreement. I was raised in churches that held a dispensational view and never knew there were other views until honestly very recently. It coincided with me learning how to study the Bible and being introduced to studying in its literary context, actually. I’m still learning, but considering covenantal views on Israel and the church have been so incredibly encouraging to my faith. Seeing myself as part of the one redeemed people of God, and removing the fear that came with the idea of a pre-trib rapture and fighting in the battle of Armageddon and all of that, has increased my gratitude and peace. I lean reformed/covenantal and amil now, although I’m still studying this topic. And I still have many dispy brothers and sisters in Christ who I love dearly!
I'm postmil, and I found this conversation both fun and enlightening!!!!
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
Same!
Good debate! It's encouraging to see two pastors with very wide differences in their beliefs stay charitable toward each other and simply plead their case for why they believe what they believe.
And i do believe the king got his suplex in on his opponent. The set up was when pastor Smith admitted his position is not found in early church history, and the execution came after he was asked by pastor Foskey: Is this doctrine so planly taught in the Bible, that someone who had never read the Bible before, would come to this conclusion on their own without being lead to it by someone else? Spencer replyed - it was plain to him as he read the Bible.
The Lord is merciful dear friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634
Thank you for the question friend and it's a simple answer. Since we the saints of Christ will be gathered to him at His return as 1 Thessalonians 4 verse 17 teaches, and since Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 verse 1 thru 4 is telling the church that before the day of the Lord can occur the Man of Lawlessness must first come, the answer is: We His Church will raptured to Him after the Man of Lawlessness appears so the Man of Lawlessness comes first.
Now where we will differ I assume is in the details and understanding of what happens in between those two events.
@@reformed2019 I thank you so much for being awake. Dear friend in Christ, what does the Holy Spirit mean by the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634
Indulge me please, and you go first. What do you understand it to mean?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634the rapture itself is something that needs to be examined, the rapture to leave is not something that is historically taught nor is it found in the original language, this is a twisting of English language in our own terms and thoughts , ( in my own opinion and thought )
In my opinion, it is a greeting if we be lifted but not a rapture. The dead will raise in a resurrection and we meet our LORD GOD SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AS THE BRIDE READY FOR ITS GROOM
John MacArthur and RC Sproul did a debate, I think, about baptism. They disagreed and loved each other :)
Great debate! Spencer won because he has the correct view! All the evidence suggests the church will not go thru the tribulation, Rev 3:10-11 we will be kept from the hour of trial, Rev 4 the church is seen in heaven (24 elders) before the tribulation begins in chapter 6. 1 Thes 5 "that day" the Day of the Lord will not overtake believers & we are not appointed to wrath, Jesus referencing Lot, how he was removed from Sodom before God's wrath fell. All points to Pre-trib. Jesus' return & the Day of the Lord is a fearful event but when Paul speaks of Christ's return for Christians its a blessed event.
It happens after this.
”Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.“
II Thessalonians 2:1-4 NKJV
@@cloudx4541 Yes, the falling away comes first which we are currently living through most likely. Once we are gathered then the antichrist can be revealed once the restrainer is taken out of the way which is the holy spirit working in and through the Christian church on the earth.
Just finished a 25 part teaching on Revelation. Chuck Missler . He goes off on a couple wild rides, but his main teaching was awesome and completly based on scripture.
Was well worth the time
The Lord is merciful dear friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
This has become one of my fave channels .. GOD bless .. King Keith in tha house
The Lord is merciful dear friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
I definitley thought King Keith won this debate, but Spencers closing statement was a good reminder that if someone's interpretation is keeping them on track to faithfully be obedient to the gospel then God bless. One day our path of sanctification will be complete and we'll know it all, but not in this life.
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 To my understanding, the simple answer is after. I did appreciate Keith bringing up the misinterpretation of the prophecies of Jesus, because I strongly feel in hindsight we will understand perfectly, but the exact details are at this time easy to misconstrue. I have heard a good arguement that the antichrist spirit has been working against us for sometime. What is your understanding of scripture?
@@KatieGarcia101 I thank you so much for being awake. Dear friend in Christ, what does the Holy Spirit mean by the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 This is one piece of the prophecy that can be interpreted many ways. The preterist will say he is roman general Titus defiling the temple before it's fall in 70 ad. I was formerly taught that it was the antichrist that will be a singular man made known shortly before Jesus return. I now hold to the view that stays true to the concepts of "already but not yet" and that prophecy holds true through all time in more than one way (in many cases). I think we should be aware of the antichrist spirit and it's desire to defile God's temple (our bodies) as much as the temple in Jerusalem. Whether or not a singular man is revealed in my lifetime, or a spirit works in many unbeleivers throughout time, I can be sure in the promises of scripture that in this life I need to be alert and depend on Jesus because there is an enemy. Even tribulation will work for good for those who love God :)
If the early church fathers thought the second coming of Christ was imminent, and a few of them did, boy did they get that wrong. 2,000 years later and He still hasn't returned. My historic premill friend thinks it's going to happen in our generation because things "are getting so bad", so could he also be wrong?
Maybe I’m misunderstanding scripture but it seems the apostles THOUGHT the return of Christ was going to be very soon, but they didn’t see his second return, so soon could be a subjective theme. Like I believe that He could come back anytime but I also know it could be thousands of more years before He returns. Maybe I’m wrong in my understanding but that’s kind of how I see it.
@@robertreynolds7123 Sure, he could come back at any time like you said. Some Scripture verses seem to be indicating a soon coming, but many of those aren't actually referring to the Second Advent at the close of history, but other events, such as the soon coming destruction of Jerusalem. We just have to be discerning as to what event is being spoken of as soon coming. That's the trick I guess.
Maybe he did ‘come’ in judgement.
Thanks for this, from South Africa
I didn't make it through the intro before cracking up. How did the host avoid a spit-take during Keith's introduction?
32:09 Wish I could hear those teachings on the 4 different resurrection accounts. Bet they were gold. 🥇🥇
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
Can you change your eschatology mid-air?
This was a really good, and loving debate, and I'm so glad to see stuff like this in the Church.
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 well much like brother Keith Foskey, I believe a lot of what Revalation, and
2 Thessalonians 2:3 were talking about, was accomplished in 70AD, I'm post-mil, so slightly different than Keith, so I'd say there is no rapture, as to the way its normally taught in pre-trib rapture teaching. However I believe that happens on the last and final day of redemptive history, pretty much the way Keith explained it
@@randycadkins Beloved friend in Christ, thank you for the reply. Will we be caught up and gathered together before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 my friend, I already answered that, have a blessed day!
Great thumb nail and theme!!!
The Lord is merciful dear friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
2 Timothy 2.15 NET: "Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately."
This is a verse about properly proclaiming the gospel itself, not about distinguishing between various "gospels" in the Scriptures that are targeted toward different audiences.
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 The "rapture" imagery depicts believers as a group of emissaries meeting Christ in the air at his arrival and escorting him to the earth as an honored dignitary, so there's no reason to think that it's an event that precedes anything else. As St. John Chrysostom says in his 8th homily on 1 Thessalonians:
*If He is about to descend, on what account shall we be caught up? For the sake of honor. For when a king drives into a city, those who are in honor go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge within. And upon the coming of an affectionate father, his children indeed, and those who are worthy to be his children, are taken out in a chariot, that they may see and kiss him; but those of the domestics who have offended remain within. We are carried upon the chariot of our Father. For He received Him up in the clouds, and “we shall be caught up in the clouds.” Seest thou how great is the honor? and as He descends, we go forth to meet Him, and, what is more blessed than all, so we shall be with Him.*
@@MAMoreno Oh thank you so much. So, will we be raptured only after the son of perdition is revealed?
Keith - well done, brother. Clear and simple. None of this poor hermeneutic that makes a mess of the scirptures.
I feel like spencer smith made a lot of arguments from silence. You would have to apply the same standard to the Gospels and the details that each one includes and omits.
“Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore (sixty) and six.” - Revelation 13:18
Almost nobody has such wisdom. That verse has to be for those who end up getting left behind.
GO WATCH THIRD ADAM
The Lord is merciful dear friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 third Adam isn’t about the rapture.
@@kkeytone Oh ok, thank you. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
As a recovering dispensationalists, I find that ad nauseam harping on "dividing" the Bible (2 Tim 2:15) too often ends up dividing a verse from its context. For example, Smith kept repeating that the details of Matt 24 differ from 1 Thes 4 prove they're separate events. While I agree (though not in the way Smith distinguishes them, i.e. 70 AD vs. 2nd coming), the differences could also be simply due to their addressing different audiences for different purposes, akin to the variants of details of the same event in different Gospels. In Matthew, Jesus' discourse is in answer to the disciples' question specifically regarding the signs of his coming (24:3). Paul on the other hand, was encouraging a church whose members were fearful of having missed the resurrection and worried about believers who had died...very different purposes and contexts. Like the old saying: A text without a context is a pretext.
Nice job by both debaters, though the moderator could have been better.
The disciples ask 3 questions in Mt 24 and Jesus goes on to answer them. The first question was answered in 70ad. The second question will be answered during the tribulation period. The third question will be answered after the 1000 year reign of Christ. There are six parables that follow and there are two parables as responses to each of the three questions.
@@morganedwards839It should be noted that this passage and elsewhere don't describe "comings" (plural) but a single "coming".
There really is no debate to be had. The bible is very clear that tribulations and great tribulation occur before he returns. The bible warns not to let teachers take you captive by empty philosophy.... When someone's theology requires an appeal to translational variants and avoids context you got to walk away and pray for their repentance. Don't join in they work, they are working for their own edification.
If it's "very clear", why was it unheard of until 1830? It came about via a charismatic-like vision by a young woman, Margaret MacDonald, who influenced John Darby. It was later popularized by Lewis Sperry Chafer and C.I. Scofield in the latter's reference Bible. Its origin, along with its not being clearly taught in Scripture, should give its adherents pause.
Man, Keith had some really weak arguments
Does a husband beat his future wife before their ceremony?
I have no idea but I've only read the revelation twice. So I'm starting this and hoping to have insight.
Edit: I like Voddie Bauchams sermons on the revelation but that's just him going over the problems that arose in the churches in the letters. At least the four I've made it through so far.
Gracious debate, well moderated, and Spirit filled. We do not divide over this but we must test it by the Scriptures. Pre-Mil is solidified by Is 65, Ez 40-48, and Rev 20 but Pre-Mil does not, repeat does not, necessitate a ‘pre-trib’ rapture. God’s Wrath is what we are promised deliverance from and His wrath does not begin until the seventh seal is opened, after the midpoint (abomination of desolation), and after the great martyrdom of the saints (5th seal). We are caught up, saved, raptured just before the wrath is unleashed. Daniel 9, 11-12, Joel 2, Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Rev 6-7, 1 Thess 4-5, and 2 Thess 2, etc all lay out the exact same timeline for the 70th week and there are 0 references in any of them to a pre-70th week rapture. We are saved from wrath, not from earthly persecution, suffering, or tribulation... we are promised it. Do not fear it, steel yourselves and your families and your congregations, we will shine as the stars of heaven when holding to our testimony (Dan 12) and the Spirit will give us utterance, welcome it as Luke 21 says, and lift up your eyes because in your suffering in that day you will know your redemption draws near. God Bless.
The Lord is merciful dear friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
Nice and edifying discussion, more of this kind o stuff!
Started out pre-mil because that was the stand of the church I came to Christ in. That changed as I studied and grew. As things stand now, you could call me a partial preterist and a Pan-Millenial. It will all pan out in the end. I believe God hasn't revealed everything to us for HIS reasons. We have enough trouble dealing with the truth's He has revealed. Just look around you. I've been a fan of Brother Spenser for some time now, though I have disagreements with him. I recently came across Brother Keith and enjoy his takes and agree with him on much. I thank God for both of these Brothers and I get disappointed when people get so incensed over this issue and start anathametising any who differ. Praise God these two men are adults and can act as brothers in the Lord should.
Josh's face is the best part of this.
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
Jesus returned as he said he would. Squabbling over a third coming of Jesus is of no Biblical value. You’ve missed the second coming brothers.
and even the verse it says at the last trumpet sound.
King James debate next. Oh man. This was good to watch.
The Lord is merciful dear friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 before from my understanding.
@@Jaymus71490 Dear friend in Christ, thank you for the reply. Can you also please clear our doubts of the verse in which our beloved Apostle Paul says, "that day shall not come except the son of PERDITION be revealed"? May grace abound towards us, amen!
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 certainly! I believe that verse (2Thes. 2) refers to the 2nd coming, not the rapture. The Thessalonians thought they were in the tribulation, and Paul was assuring them that they were not in the tribulation yet.
@@Jaymus71490 I am sorry, I don't understand. Please be patient dear friend, I am a slow learner. Can you please share with me what the Holy Spirit means by "THE 2ND COMING" in VERSE 2?
Does 1st Corinthians C 15 not say that at the LAST TRUMPET? This is after the tribulation.
“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”
As a post tribber, I would give Spencer some good points that can seem convincing
to those wh ohave not studied scripture. Obviously, I don't buy it. I used to believe
in a pre-trib, but the word of truth doesn't need to be divided to the fact that the rapture
happens after the tribulation.
Awesome job Keith!!! so good!
The Lord is merciful dear friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
Since Keith kept wanting to go to genesis there's a great sermon he should check out from buster seaton called "the gospel preached unto abraham"....outlines everything..... after Isaac(Christ) gets His bride rebekah(rapture of church) then abaraham goes after keturah(isreal 2nd chance/ 144k)(sarah was isreal first chance/abrahams first wife/left to go to gentiles)
The first book outlining the same thing that the last book lays out.... pretty neat since God is the Alpha and the Omega....knows the ending from the beginning...etc
Maybe dispensationalists should go to Exodus as a type. The Israelites didn't get "raptured" from Egypt before God sent the plagues. While they were protected from God's wrath during that "tribulation", their persecution increased. Their "rapture" didn't occur until all that was complete.
@@sbs8331 I don't think that applies....the saints are free to go when the rapture takes place....the plagues were sent to Egypt because Pharoah wouldn't let them go......not applicable....similar to the whole argument ...a non pre-trib argument allllmost sounds good but just isn't quite right.....similar to satan transforming into an angel of light....trys to mimic the truth but with his own spin on it......also....rapture and 2nd coming are two separate events.....rapture we go to Him/clouds....2nd coming Christ is literally on earth destroying the false
Why debate ? Christians that believe it will be gone . Christians that don't will also be gone and just a little embarrassed. All good .
Spencer for the win!
I am a Bible believing literalist and yes I came to the conclusion of a 7-year tribulation and a clear difference between the church and Israel because that's simply what the Bible teaches and this view is not just 200 years old this view is literally 2000 years old study my friend study
So there’s two peoples of God and the church is a side project? That doesn’t make any sense
@@therockstar17 read your Bible
Great job brothers!
The Lord is merciful dear friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
Afterwards.@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634
There's a short book from 1945 that emphatically proves from scripture that the events of the rapture and the 2nd coming cannot be separated. They are concurrent. The book is titled The Momentous Event: A Discussion of Scripture Teaching ob the Second Advent , by WJ Grier (128 pages).
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
It is a great day when a fundie says he doesn't know everything. Hats off to you, Spencer.
Piglet definitely skips leg day.
They need to invite Carol Vey for the pre-trib position on the next one
Great job Kieth you killed it👍🏽👍🏽.
He is great at debate, was more prepared, and knows the Bible well. The other fella, not so much. As we say in the South, bless his heart. Dispensationalism is such a horrible, false doctrine. I would go so far as to call it heresy.
Peace to you, friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@christalone71 Peace to you, friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 Sounds like a trap lol
@@christalone71 The only trap we have to be alert about is the "snare of the fowler". Dear friend in Christ, there is nothing wrong in brothers and sisters sharing with each other what the Holy Spirit has revealed to them and clearing each other's doubts so that we can escape eternal (you know what).
Brotha's. Rip those T shirts...Flex on! What fun and good info too.
The Lord is merciful dear friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
Spencer Smith I agree with you, but you basically had an opening statement and reiterated it over and over without addressing any rebuttal. It would be great to see someone who like John MacArthur or Dr. Andy woods, if Keith foskey is the "king" of the amillennial position should he be debating the "king" of dispensationalists, to be a fair fight. But even without a fair fight my problem with amillennialism is the waffling of interpretation. The rapture is a concept that can be drawn out through patterns through our scripture as well as the new testament texts. You have no problem doing that with other biblical concepts. The Trinity, Sola scriptura, if your a. And there are, while not many, a handful of references to escaping the wrath to come in the early church, and theology novum is ironic when, you do not agree with infant baptism (I agree with you by the way) which is the traditional position of the Church.
That boy Keith had his pen ready so he didn’t miss a single point!
I honestly think when discussing this topic that we need to address hermeneutics, and we need to address the theological covenants undergirding covenant theology because they are found nowhere in Scripture.
I would like to have a debate on the rapture?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 after
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 my brother. Would you please just get to the point that you want to make? It would be faster and better. 👍🏼 I don’t understand why you are asking this question. I answered you. That Paul says the fallen away and the son of perdition happens first. Before the rapture. That’s a fact my brother. So please just explain what you want to?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 this is like the 4th time that I have answered this. Last time and I’ll move on. We are waiting time. Get to the point? Why are you constantly asking the same thing? If you think that I’m wrong about something. Say what you are assuming or thinking. And we can get to the point of what you’re issue is brother? Again. Go back and read my responses to you on your question. You asked “What does the Holy Spirit mean by the revelation of the sin of perdition” my answer is. He is telling us through Paul that the rapture or coming of Jesus Christ will not happen until first the fallen away happens first and the revelation of the son of perdition
...umm John wrote revelation after 70 AD...
Exactly. That is what I was thinking
No he didn't. It's important to understand just because our oldest copy is 300 AD doesn't mean it was written then. It's a copy not the original. And it clearly happened before Israel was sacked in 70AD. Also that would make John over 90 years old. If you go all the way to 300 AD he'd be a couple 100 years old
@person6768 ...you are misinformed... it is well known that John wrote Revelation around 90 A.D.. on the aisle of Patmos.
You would know that if you personally studied it....
God bless
@@J.P.Walker Possibly even up to 100 A.D, but I must have missed this part of the video. Where and who claimed otherwise?
@ihiohoh2708 the quote from Keith was Revelation was written before the temple destruction in 70ad.
I thought it was a well-known fact that it was written after.
God bless brother
Spencer follows the Bible, Keith follows man.
Spencer follows Darby & Scofield, who popularized a johnny-come-lately doctrine invented by a woman who has a charismatic-like vision. Keith follows the Scriptures in the same way that Bible believing pastors and teachers have for centuries.
@@sbs8331 I believe the idea of dispensations predates both of those people, but I definitely agree that dispensationalism is most certainly a 19th century invention. This is kind of the problem with radical reformers though. People are so focused on their *personal interpretations* of the Bible that they completely neglect all of historical Christianity. Yes, the Bible is the highest authority; but that does not mean we disregard everything that was unanimous among ALL early church fathers. This is what the original Reformers held to. This is why you see today the resurgence of early heresies such as denying the Trinity.
Wow, that is very uncalled for and not true and bearing false witness , please think and know more before you speak about brothers
Why the Rapture , LOVE .
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
What did they accomplish as far as the events of the book of Revelation? I would love to do an explanation, of the events of the book of Revelation, and cover in scripture the second coming, and the rapture, by actually going into scripture to do it in the book of Revelation itself.
I have been teaching Revelation for 27 years now, and my videos are on TH-cam under the title.
Pt1 the pre wrath rapture and the third coming of Jesus.
To find the next video just type in what part your looking for like pt2 pt3 ECT and then type in the rest of the title.
No order of Revelation at all was given.
You totally missed the distinction the brother made. In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile. The middle wall is still firmly in place unless one is in Christ. As proven by the correct hermeneutical eschatological view pretrib rapture of the church, premill return of Christ. The Jew is still with us, they are the whole reason for the great tribulation.
Hey brother, thanks for the kind words about my channel. I could not find the thread of our conversation in this comment section anymore, and I am not sure if it was taken down by Keith or deleted by you on accident. Either way, may we all do more studying of God's word to be faithful to rightly handle the text and be better bereans.
@@davidalvarado6420 yes, I removed that comment because it wasn’t made in good faith. It was a total misrepresentation and that’s not good, lol.
The reason I remarked on your channel is that most responses to any of my comments that seem to be somewhat critical are people that don’t even promote Godly content or character. It’s a pleasure to interact with people of genuine faith. Faith that informs their everyday life. Although, it’s becoming quite rare to do so.
@@Micah4_12 Did you want to repost my comment so that others may have the information for themselves even though your comment was not made in good faith as believers should be okay with admitting when they are wrong and correcting their position when out of alignment with the whole counsel of God.
@@davidalvarado6420 no, I do not. For my own reasons, that it doesn’t matter to me if you agree with or not.
I see that there is a problem when you think the rapture and the second coming are the same Luke 21:35-36and in Revelation when John saw saints in white that no man can number. We a already in heaven the second coming hasn't. 😮 happened yet
you dont read very well.
Revelation 7 says ...
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
THEY ARE SERVING GOD IN HIS TEMPLE
Revelation 15 says ...
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
NO MAN enters the temple UNTIL THE PLAGUES ARE DONE.
Proving the great multitude don't serve God in His temple until after the rapture at vial number 7.
Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
stupid people dont study their bible and stupid people will be destroyed
Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
.
Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
A much more telling verse that nobody mentions, yet is also quite important is this one: "Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore (sixty) and six.”
Almost none of, if any of, the believers of the Church age have such wisdom.
I commend unto anyone who would to read the book REVELATION by Dr. Gerald Stevens. It isn't your average escstology book and he doesn't have your average view. It is steeped in historical information and data of all kinds going back to the early church historical context, following the realms of thought of the middle ages, reformation, colonial period etc. even if you disagree with Dr. Stevens I think you will find it fascinating
01:23:30
I can't stand that understanding of what it means to be a "convert."
Ugghhhhh like it's just a switch you turn on whenever you muster the desire to lift your arm. Groooosssssssss
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 if you listened, the word often used to symbolize the "Rapture" is known as people going to welcome their King to town. Its not to get swept away out of town but to welcome in royalty, which is why the rapture is being caught up to return w The Lord, not to hang out for 7 years.
@@the1der Beloved friend in Christ. So, you mean we will we be caught up and gathered together before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
Everything happened in 70 AD? And John was banished to Patmos in 90 AD Revelation written in 96 AD or around that time and John saying these things are to come? So How could this been already happened in 70 AD before it was written?
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 before the Anti-Christ is released Revelation chapter 5:9-11 John sees the the 24 elders and the Church around the throne then in chapter 6 the Anti-Christ is released in the 1st seal. These people who say we have to go through the "Tribulation" (Jacob's trouble) always forget about the Judgment seat of Christ so when does that happen if we have to go through this time of Tribulation?
@@jonathansmith7377 Dear friend in Christ, thank you for the reply. Can you also please clear our doubts of the verse in which our beloved Apostle Paul says, "that day shall not come except the son of PERDITION be revealed"? May grace abound towards us, amen!
@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 yes keep reading down till verse 7 he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. Let meaning hinder the he is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit hinders the Anti-Christ until he be taken out of the way, the he who be taken out of the way is the body of Christ. Lots of people say the he is the Holy Spirit is the he but that's impossible u can't remove the Holy Spirit, but Holy Spirit is hindering the Anti-Christ until the body of Christ is taken out of the way. U will also hear the he is talking about the Man of Sin is the he and the he is hindering the Son of perdition and he can't be revealed until the man of sin is taken out of the way which makes no sense because they the same person and would mean that he's in control and not God which the bible does not teach.
@@jonathansmith7377 I am sorry, I don't understand. Please be patient dear friend, I am a slow learner. Can you please share with me whether the Holy Spirit is referring to our rapture or something else in VERSE 1?
Sweet mercy❤
The dead in Christ rise first...that's a resurrection. There are 4 witnesses, including Paul, who confirm that there is only 2 total resurrections and 1 resurrection of the righteous. And John tells us that this one resurrection of the righteous includes tribulation martyrs, which means nobody in Christ is raising up before the tribulation. Without a 3rd resurrection being made up & forced into the Text, pre trib is totally unworkable and collapses. Do not be deceived by anyone about this.
Daniel 12:2
King James Version
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel says only 2 total.
John 5:28-29
King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Jesus says only 2 total.
Acts 24:15
King James Version
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Paul tells a gentile Roman governor there's only 2 total and only 1 of the just and he does so AFTER he wrote Thessalonians & Corinthians. Which means there is no secret 3rd resurrection as part of the "mystery" that he was given to take to the gentiles. Unless of course you're prepared to espouse the idea that Paul "forgot" to mention that 3rd resurrection here in Acts 24, and subsequently blew a golden witnessing opportunity while speaking to this gentile Roman governor??
Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
John confirms only 2 total and only 1 for the righteous and it includes tribulation martyrs, which means nobody in Christ is raising up before the tribulation. You cannot come to a pre trib rapture without violating the commands in Revelation 22:18-19. Pre trib ADDS a non existent 3rd resurrection to the Text while simultaneously TAKING AWAY Matthew 24, Mark 13, & 19 chapters of Revelation from the church.
Revelation 22:18-19
King James Version
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Debating the rapture is really pointless given that all prophecy was already fulfilled in 70 AD
@Scribeintheink Correct
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
Spencer would agree with that. So you only disagree with one of them.
Revelation 18:7
King James Version
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
American churchianity glorifies herself & lives deliciously and her pre trib rapture heresy promises her that she will escape earth before the beginning of sorrows.
Pre trib is mystery Babylon doctrine, and yet Spencer Smith makes videos railing against mystery Babylon...oh the irony!
The only way anyone comes up with an entire doctrine and system with the dispensational rapture is if they are taught it - period. There is one people of God, both Jew and Gentile alike in Christ Jesus.. praise the LORD..ALL Glory is His. I think most American Christians first come across the Pre-trib idea and as we grow and the Lord shows us, we grow out of that and into more sound Biblical eschatology -- Hahahaha :D Love y'all brothers!
There is no pre-trib rapture, only the RESURRECTION at the LORD's return - AMEN!
The nicene creed says one return
Bro Spencer sounds like he is MAD (mid Acts dispensationalist)
No
@@Micah4_12 ok
He isn't.
this lay man's plain reading doesn't see spencer's position in any way. but to be fair, i am not a gymnast, i don't flex like that :D
Law of first mention is...not good.
your face when he mentions 7 raptures in the bible lol
haha this is great
Peace to you, friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634
RESURRECTION DAY = THE LAST DAY👇
John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
RESURRECTION DAY = THE LAST DAY☝
THIS IS RESURRECTION DAY
THIS IS THE LAST DAY👇
1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
.
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634
THERE IS NO DEBATE IF YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE
The debate comes from a large group of truth deniers causing division in the body of Christ
endure to the end
not 7 years before the end.
not 3.5 years before the end
.
Keith, you've lost by NKO 😊
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
The rapture is related to Greek philosophy for the tickling of the ears. Jesus' death, resurrection, ascension, and return are how God is and will fulfill his promise to Abraham in Genesis 12. All other predictions are funny business. 1 Corinthians 13.1-3 says all of this is noise.
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 The rapture doesn't exist in the Bible. It flows from pagan philosophy.
Thats because matthew 24 already happenes
What in the world. Two grown men playing like the word of God is a joke. Calvinist explains it
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 what are talking about all this rapture stuff is fake
I understand why amill and post-mill was a more traditional held belief, because what about the jews and their unbelief , but once 1948 happened and now their is a literal Isreal in the same place as it was in the OT times that is elephant in the room is hard to displace the rapture.
All puns intended
Excuse my bad grammar
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
They def don’t understand the nation of Israel and prophecies in the OT that were fullfilled had a literal fulfilling, maybe some had a duel mode as well, ie topology, spiritual, etc. but non the less they were literal
Too prideful and mocking for me to watch yhis.
When you say pre trib, you say Jesus is a liar. Mathew 24!!
Beloved friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
I believe both are wrong. I don't we in the millennium now. I believe in and 6000yrs then a 1000yrs (the day of rest) .
HYPE
Peace to you, friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634 no
@@PurePuritan 😅
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634
The rapture is when the Lord Himself descends from heaven to raise the dead.
1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
There is only one day set aside for the resurrection of the dead.
John 6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
so you tell me, is the last day before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?
@@gracefreshfoodsministries.9634
Its the pre tribulation rapture worshipers that CAUSE DIVISION in the body of Christ because they refuse to believe the truth.
#DispensationalismisDead
What is Dispensationalism?
The Lord is merciful dear friend in Christ. Will we be raptured before or after the revelation of the son of perdition?