I hated Livia, but I could at least respect her. Livia was intelligent, patient, and in her own way worked to keep the empire secure and at peace. She was utterly ruthless and caused so much death, but it was at least for a purpose. Messalina was a willful arrogant child who just did as she pleased and never thought about the consequences. She was the empress with a devoted husband who would do whatever she wanted. She had power, wealth, and freedom. And when she got bored decided to simply divorce her husband, the emperor, marry her lover, and restore the republic. With NO plans of what to do when Claudius found out.
From what I see, knowing Claudius in this show I bet he knows that his wife never romantically love him considering their AGE GAP and had Messalina been more open to him and is NOT a piece of crap, Claudius would allow her to find a young lover.
Brilliant camera work, not only in the long, pacing shots, but the sudden spin at the end. And Sheila White played the narcissistic, ambitious Messalina perfectly, a magnetic mix of coquette and viper. Poor Claudius, who loved her, couldn't do more than wonder why on earth she'd do such a thing to him and conclude, "Poor unhappy woman . . ." Peerless acting all around. It's also my brother's *favorite* scene. He hated Messalina's guts, and cheered when she lost her head.
@@splinterbyrd We don't, that is true. Some think she considered Claudius about to be overthrown and wanted to ensure she and her children survived the power change, hence the marriage to Silius.
@@stevekaczynski3793 Agreed. Being the Emperor's wife was the most powerful position for a woman in the empire. For the Empress to deliberately move _away_ from that position is absolutely without precedent; there must have been some extenuating circumstances which were quite extreme. You're right; Messalina would have known full well that when Caligula had been toppled 7y previously, his wife and child had been killed as well.
@@splinterbyrd Some such consideration was likely there, otherwise it becomes the tale of a completely irrational nymphomaniac and her paramours. Claudius looked like he was not only losing power but was barely even aware of it. I suspect the Praetorian Guard, who put him on the throne, preferred to keep him there, otherwise Messalina's moves might have been ultimately smart rather than self-destructive.
@@cyrusmallison6157 She presumably wanted the power of being empress, but may have thought Claudius was about to be overthrown, hence the marriage to Silius. In a strange business it is the most rational explanation I can think of.
@@splinterbyrd Quite true, but we'll never hear her side of the story. The best we can hope for is the old saying "Where there's smoke, there's fire!" and hope Tacitus amd Suetonius got it right.
@@wayneantoniazzi2706 The Chief Vestal Virgin Vibidia was apparently the only person to speak up for her saying quite rightly that Messalina should have a fair trial in a court of law. But the Empress was never given a hearing. Her position as Empress was the most powerful female position in the Empire, so it seems extraordinary that she should deliberately try to move _away_ from that role. It has been suggested that Claudius' political position was becoming unstable (he was not entirely the nice man Graves portrays him to be.) Messalina knew perfectly well that just 7y earlier when Caligula was assassinated, his wife and child were killed as well. She may have been trying to protect herself and her children by pre-empting a putsch against Claudius.
@@splinterbyrd Women had low status in Rome - even empresses manipulated their husbands to exert power rather than possessing it independently. It is noticeable that for example Livia significantly lost power after Augustus died, as Tiberius disliked her. I am not convinced she actually killed Augustus, for that reason.
@@stevekaczynski3793 Roman women had better status than in Ancient Greece where they really were non-persons, although it certainly wasn't brilliant for women in Rome. The best status for women seems to have been in Ancient Egypt where they apparently had the same legal and political rights as men. I agree there was a great deal of inuendo about Livia at the time and since; people just seem to have disliked her, but without much hard evidence. It may simply have been a case that as Rome's first Empress, no Roman woman had ever had that kind of exalted status before in Roman history which was why she was regarded with suspicion.
She overestimated herself.......she was clever, and unlike his sister she came up with her own plans rather than others suggesting plans and letting her think she'd come up with them, but she still wasn't clever enough. I doubt her plan would've worked - at least not as quickly as she planned it. She overplayed her hand and didn't think things through as well as she thought she had. At the end of the day she was a vain, silly child playing tricks and loosing her temper.
I actually totally liked it. I generally agree with you, but as a villain imo (at least as portrayed in I, Claudius) Messalina is more of a narcissist and a coward. She didn’t think she’d ever face death for her actions, thinking she’d just dope her husband into forgiving her “He wouldn’t do that!” It makes sense to me that she’d be utterly hysterical upon realizing she’s not getting away with it this time. (Completely unrelated, but DIC is my favourite sailor moon dub ❤)
@@IsraelNowIsraelForever Sure, but not all villains are supposed to be exactly the same, the same way not all protagonist are. Don't know if you have seen the series, but facing "death like a Roman" with silent dignity or fierce pride was simply not fitting for a character like Messalina because 1) it was not the type of character she was, 2) to show how far she was from Livia, Claudius' grandmother and first "Big Bad" of the series who was a master manipulator who do faced her death with a degree of stoicism (and who Messalina claimed to want to model herself) and 3) because after all the things she have done with such vile delight, the only ending she deserved was the one she had... as a child screaming in a tantrum.
Probably, though I don't know how Roman bureaucracy worked. Apparently they used signet rings to seal documents - ordered to commit suicide by Nero, Petronius Arbiter is reported to have destroyed his signet ring so it could not be used to endanger others.
Why is it that whenever I see these Actors I always think of plush flats in London or Large houses in the country? Is it because like today they’ve all creamed off the BBC licence fee payers.They are all middleclass ,along with the little brat actors who played the children,all sons and daughters of middleclass actors or staff at the middleclass ridden BBC.
I hated Livia, but I could at least respect her. Livia was intelligent, patient, and in her own way worked to keep the empire secure and at peace. She was utterly ruthless and caused so much death, but it was at least for a purpose. Messalina was a willful arrogant child who just did as she pleased and never thought about the consequences. She was the empress with a devoted husband who would do whatever she wanted. She had power, wealth, and freedom. And when she got bored decided to simply divorce her husband, the emperor, marry her lover, and restore the republic. With NO plans of what to do when Claudius found out.
Well said!
From what I see, knowing Claudius in this show I bet he knows that his wife never romantically love him considering their AGE GAP and had Messalina been more open to him and is NOT a piece of crap, Claudius would allow her to find a young lover.
Such was life for Uncle Claudius
@@AYVYN He had a bad habit of marrying silly unsuitable women
Sheila White played the role of the histrionic narcissist perfectly.
This scene filled me with joy
Brilliant camera work, not only in the long, pacing shots, but the sudden spin at the end. And Sheila White played the narcissistic, ambitious Messalina perfectly, a magnetic mix of coquette and viper. Poor Claudius, who loved her, couldn't do more than wonder why on earth she'd do such a thing to him and conclude, "Poor unhappy woman . . ." Peerless acting all around.
It's also my brother's *favorite* scene. He hated Messalina's guts, and cheered when she lost her head.
It should be remembered that historically we don't have Messalina's side of the story
She was ultimately too simple a personality who got too close to power, and power corrupts anyone without the wisdom to handle having it.
@@splinterbyrd We don't, that is true. Some think she considered Claudius about to be overthrown and wanted to ensure she and her children survived the power change, hence the marriage to Silius.
@@stevekaczynski3793 Agreed. Being the Emperor's wife was the most powerful position for a woman in the empire. For the Empress to deliberately move _away_ from that position is absolutely without precedent; there must have been some extenuating circumstances which were quite extreme.
You're right; Messalina would have known full well that when Caligula had been toppled 7y previously, his wife and child had been killed as well.
@@splinterbyrd Some such consideration was likely there, otherwise it becomes the tale of a completely irrational nymphomaniac and her paramours. Claudius looked like he was not only losing power but was barely even aware of it. I suspect the Praetorian Guard, who put him on the throne, preferred to keep him there, otherwise Messalina's moves might have been ultimately smart rather than self-destructive.
That centurion or whatever who kills her really loathes her. Perhaps he never got invited to the parties...
He was always in the kitchen at parties 🥳
Messalina had countless innocent people executed or banished throughout her fantasies. Wouldn't be surprised if one of them was a relative.
According to Cassius Dio, he was one of her clients when she performed as Lisisca at Suburra brothels.
Holy shit man that was heavy
She had it coming to her.
All she had to do was ask Claudius for a divorce and he would have understood.
@@cyrusmallison6157 She presumably wanted the power of being empress, but may have thought Claudius was about to be overthrown, hence the marriage to Silius. In a strange business it is the most rational explanation I can think of.
Poor Mess-around-alina! I remember this from years back. Pretty chilling but we can't say she didn't ask for it.
@@wayneantoniazzi2706 That’s assuming we can believe Tacitus and Suetonius. We do not have Messalina's side of the story.
@@splinterbyrd Quite true, but we'll never hear her side of the story. The best we can hope for is the old saying "Where there's smoke, there's fire!" and hope Tacitus amd Suetonius got it right.
@@wayneantoniazzi2706 The Chief Vestal Virgin Vibidia was apparently the only person to speak up for her saying quite rightly that Messalina should have a fair trial in a court of law. But the Empress was never given a hearing.
Her position as Empress was the most powerful female position in the Empire, so it seems extraordinary that she should deliberately try to move _away_ from that role.
It has been suggested that Claudius' political position was becoming unstable (he was not entirely the nice man Graves portrays him to be.)
Messalina knew perfectly well that just 7y earlier when Caligula was assassinated, his wife and child were killed as well.
She may have been trying to protect herself and her children by pre-empting a putsch against Claudius.
@@splinterbyrd Women had low status in Rome - even empresses manipulated their husbands to exert power rather than possessing it independently. It is noticeable that for example Livia significantly lost power after Augustus died, as Tiberius disliked her. I am not convinced she actually killed Augustus, for that reason.
@@stevekaczynski3793 Roman women had better status than in Ancient Greece where they really were non-persons, although it certainly wasn't brilliant for women in Rome.
The best status for women seems to have been in Ancient Egypt where they apparently had the same legal and political rights as men.
I agree there was a great deal of inuendo about Livia at the time and since; people just seem to have disliked her, but without much hard evidence.
It may simply have been a case that as Rome's first Empress, no Roman woman had ever had that kind of exalted status before in Roman history which was why she was regarded with suspicion.
wow. that was really good
In reality Claudius obviously was not faithful husband himself, being an womanizer, but the conspiracy crossed the limit even he could not forgive.
Men weren't expected to be faithful.
@@urmo345 Agreed, and I don't know that Claudius was quite the nice man described by Robert Graves
She overestimated herself.......she was clever, and unlike his sister she came up with her own plans rather than others suggesting plans and letting her think she'd come up with them, but she still wasn't clever enough. I doubt her plan would've worked - at least not as quickly as she planned it. She overplayed her hand and didn't think things through as well as she thought she had. At the end of the day she was a vain, silly child playing tricks and loosing her temper.
She played - and she lost. That's all.
Why did she have to scream as she met her fate? The most menacing villains are those who face death or imprisonment stoically.
Yes, and most Romans have impeccable British accents.
I actually totally liked it. I generally agree with you, but as a villain imo (at least as portrayed in I, Claudius) Messalina is more of a narcissist and a coward. She didn’t think she’d ever face death for her actions, thinking she’d just dope her husband into forgiving her “He wouldn’t do that!” It makes sense to me that she’d be utterly hysterical upon realizing she’s not getting away with it this time.
(Completely unrelated, but DIC is my favourite sailor moon dub ❤)
she's not meant to be a menacing villain but a scheming manipulative woman
@@aussiejinjo one can be both.
@@IsraelNowIsraelForever Sure, but not all villains are supposed to be exactly the same, the same way not all protagonist are.
Don't know if you have seen the series, but facing "death like a Roman" with silent dignity or fierce pride was simply not fitting for a character like Messalina because 1) it was not the type of character she was, 2) to show how far she was from Livia, Claudius' grandmother and first "Big Bad" of the series who was a master manipulator who do faced her death with a degree of stoicism (and who Messalina claimed to want to model herself) and 3) because after all the things she have done with such vile delight, the only ending she deserved was the one she had... as a child screaming in a tantrum.
Love all of this and always have, but: would Claudius really be signing those documents? Wouldn't he have been using his seal to make them official?
the guy seals them w the lamp
This was Robert Graves's version. The real Claudius signed in full knowledge and when told she had been executed, he merely asked for more wine.
@@nm7358 The historical Claudius was more ruthless than the version Graves offers.
Probably, though I don't know how Roman bureaucracy worked. Apparently they used signet rings to seal documents - ordered to commit suicide by Nero, Petronius Arbiter is reported to have destroyed his signet ring so it could not be used to endanger others.
⚡️
roman soldier with death warrant is Vinnie Jones
Why is it that whenever I see these Actors I always think of plush flats in London or Large houses in the country? Is it because like today they’ve all creamed off the BBC licence fee payers.They are all middleclass ,along with the little brat actors who played the children,all sons and daughters of middleclass actors or staff at the middleclass ridden BBC.
Hmmm. Something makes me think your objections don't have a lot to do with acting.