American diabolism and American exceptionalism represent two sides of the same fundamental problem: people in America being self-centered and ignorant of the outside world
It's not just Americans. You see leftists from all over the world do this. Utter fucking clowns, proof that even people you might agree with believe what they believe for all of the wrong reasons, possibly because of some sort of ideological hivemind, the desire to be part of a "team". This is a human fundamental problem. Humanity will NEVER get well.
Yea, American diabolism uncritically accepts the premise of America being essentially geopolitically omnipotent and all-important to the rest of the world.
I honestly think it’s due in large part to an American-centric outlook among those honest types who aren’t shills for RT. Even among people who claim to be critical of the US’s role in the world (and it is often justified to be critical tbf), it’s clear they still have trouble conceiving of the fact that other states have agency outside of the US. To them, everything is always caused by something the US or NATO does. Other states only act in response to something the US does. This is very clear in how the “Anti-imperialist” types characterize Russia’s actions in Ukraine as them “responding” to an aggressive NATO. They can’t acknowledge the fact that other states and countries have their own ambitions and that Russia is just as able to act aggressively as the US. It is a very bizarre form of American exceptionalism.
Im more convinced that it was just another Russian nationalist state but used communism as a cover and it's leaders were essentially just Bonapartists who used an opportunity to gain positions of power. It wasn't ever about socialism. Just Russian Imperialism first
If I had one line to say to tankies it would be “if you go against the system 100% of the time just by default, you’re still being controlled by the system”
My uncle is a tankie and has been for decades. This wouldn't work on him because he believes people are incapable of independent agency or thought, and that as such everyone is controlled (including himself) its a weird twist on conspiratorialism, where the world is defined by competing propagandas. There is no truth, no agency, nothing, only instructions. Everything he thinks he has to be told what to think, and he thinks this is the same for everyone and its merely a matter of who controls the flow of information THere's a certain religiosity about it, where truth itself is prescriptive rather than descriptive
@@jascu4251 Sounds like severe trauma. That's the kind of mentality fascism attempts to instill in people through gratuitous abuse. That's why you see people who have been broken like that coming out of, say, American Christian cults.
I think the answer is simply in complacency. People in the west have just lost sight of what life under a dictator is like, what war is actually like to live through, and how lucky they are to live in the century that they do. I’m not saying this out of a conservative point of view, since I still think there are a lot of ways we can improve our situation. However, a lot of leftists bought the idea that somehow if we just got rid of America, socialism would magically arrive in the world. That’s not how empires work, that’s not how imperial collapses work, and that certainly isn’t how socialism works. Just because you fight one empire doesn’t mean that imperialism suddenly ends. It just means one empire is weakened, allowing for other empires to rise in its place. This is especially dangerous, when the imperial system you are attempting to weaken is a flawed liberal democracy, and it’s replacements are all authoritarian dictatorships.
The left in Europe remembers and we live relatively close to Russia and Ukraine. The entire idea of the European union was grounded in peace between countries through fossil fuel deals.theres are for why the EU is making it's own defense. It's bad enough that Orban is on the inside the union.
I watched a lecture on TH-cam a couple of days ago called "Why Ukraine Is The West's Fault' featuring 'John Mearsheimer'. This lecture was given before the war began last February. It was uploaded 7 years ago. His main points all fell in the realms of a very America-centric view of "Ukraine isn't a strategically important country (not true) so why are we fighting for it?" and "How can WE direct Ukraine into going down the path of neutrality"... Like Ukrainians are supposed to see their own country as a mere cog in the machine of greater geopolitics and accept whatever deal the Russians threw at them as he felt Russia had a right to feel "threatened". It was ironic as he argued that Putin knew Russia would never be able to take Ukraine even though Ukraine didn't really have an army not so long ago and were in no fit state to pose any threat to Russia. Also if there was some justification to that claim, why did they invade Ukraine under the excuse of "de-nazification" ? He absolutely fell apart in the Q&A thanks to one neutral question. 1. He mentioned Russia had offered Ukraine a very good deal. I have no idea what deal he was talking about and haven't had the chance to research into it, but claimed it was a better deal than what the EU were giving them (remember this lecture was uploaded 7 years ago). In the Q&A an audience member asked him about the specifics of this deal. He couldn't name any. While I wouldn't expect him to be able to recite the entire thing, if you came to the conclusion that the deal was "better" that would imply you had compared the two choices and came to the conclusion that one was better - you should at least remember something.
Realism is the sociopathic ideology that led to the Monroe doctrine and the slaughter of countless people in Latin America, so it's weird to see supposed leftists citing a realist approach for why we should let Russia destroy Ukraine.
Since you said this was seven years ago, he probably meant the EU-Ukrainian Association Agreement. Basically, Euratom (the EU energy group) agreed to an energy-sharing policy as a way to start onboarding Ukraine into the Combined Market, basically to start small and build trust. They took this deal at the expense of the Eurasian Economic Union (eg, Russia and Co.), which tried to bribe them by offering far more. It should be noted: The EEU is ostensibly a democratic body where members can vote to cut off all EUU trade with other nations, and of course Russia dominates the vote so FUNCTIONALLY they have the power to cut off trade between any EUU nation and groups/nations they don't like. EDIT: Also John Mearsheimer is a once-respected political philosopher who went crazy about 12 years back. He's an Offensive Realist who somehow decided the logical conclusion of Offensive Realism was that the rule of hegemonic powers was inevitable, thus any nation that wasn't able to become one should just submit to their nearest neighbour for the "greater good".
Jason Call, one of the leftists who ran for Congress in 2022 and is now working for Marianne Williamson's campaign once got into an argument with me over peace and his answer to the "Russia has nukes so we shouldn't antagonize them" was to just give Russia everything they wanted regardless of how crazy or extreme it is.
What's even more disturbing is that people actually think that way. If those people got into power they'd be the biggest most spineless suckers on earth. Putin and Kim and Xi are banking on using threats of nuclear war to keep pushing and pushing back against democracy. And appeasement is the problem. What would happen if one day Russia threatened to nuke Alaska if the US didn't give it up? They've already threatened to nuke Ukraine if it doesn't surrender. The world would be a worse place if nobody called their bluff.
@@Enkarashaddam While I disagree with those people, it is at least a coherent worldview, it makes a logical sense at least. This is a huge step up from the ever-shifting world of satanists. nazis. nato did it, it never happened, they did it to themselves etc that is impossible to pin down People who think this about the nuclear threat, you can at least have a conversation with them and discuss it without it going wild (unless they also think all the other stuff in which case you've no chance of having a real conversation or discussion)
This is the weird thing I can't get over. Many claim they aren't left or right or pro Russian. Just pro peace. And in their mind the way to peace always seems to be "give Russia what it wanrs". Rewarding warmongering seems like pretty pro war opinion to me.
It’s worth noting that foreign policy has always been a sticking point that factionalizes leftists. For example, the 2nd Socialist International broke up because of disputes over WWI. The America First Committee, which was formed to protest the US’s involvement in WWII, consisted both of fascists and prominent socialists. Socialism by itself is best equipped for domestic issues, it needs additional ideologies to inform foreign policy.
Wonder if any major leftie creator has done a serious look into selectorate theory, because it offers the best analysis of this effect out of anything.
True, anarchists in the 30s were torn over involvement in WWII. Some took a similar stance to leftists today who want "peace in Ukraine" without really addressing the role of the invader as the point of the defense. But today we see WWII as peak antifa action, especially with the forming of popular fronts of formerly opposing partisans to combat fascism.
Do you think that has a connection to the horseshoe theory? For instance, I heard about a woman who was Bernie or Bust but later became temporarily supportive of the QAnon conspiracy theory, due to her distrust of the establishment. She believed the pro-imperialist establishment Democrats rigged the system against Bernie. There seems too be a remarkable overlap between the views Marxist-Leninists and the populist right
Nice to be reminded that every generation of leftists fail to realize that peace at all costs always capitulates to the aggressor. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to drink.
American diabolism but also a deep-rooted guilt complex that makes some leftists feel uncomfortable criticising other countries, like Russia, China, or Iran, because it’s either not our place to do so or because we have wronged these countries in the past in some way
I'm pretty sure at this point that this is largely because American leftists are mostly traumatized refugees from American religious conservatism, which has an even more abusive attitude toward enforcing guilt and self-loathing than the Catholic church.
This isn’t just a problem on the American Left either - look at Lula over in Brazil for some absolutely braindead foreign policy takes as well. One poster had it right when they said that democratic socialism as an ideology by itself doesn’t necessarily provide a coherent framework for reasoning through foreign policy issues.
Lula's problem is far more personal. His formative years were during the US-backed military dictatorship in Brazil, so because of that he deeply distrusts US foreign policy and will buddy up with anyone he perceives as being anti-US. It's a petty grudge but it's one that makes historical sense.
@@theshadowsagas3617 yeah no i 100% get south american distrust of america and anybody who doesn't at least understand, if not outright agree with the south american left on these issues, is historically illiterate
@@donovan4222 Let's dispense with the bullshit and get to heart of the matter? Do you think Russia is a fascist shit regime that needs to be defeated or should Ukraine concede to them.
To be fair I used to watch Hasan and stopped because of his "everything that is bad is America's fault" we can acknowledge our faults and history without being hateful.
Ur oligarchs have hijaked ur government by scaring everyone that government means communism and dictatorship. So the rich can now have socialism for them self and capitalims for the people. Its is by criminals for criminals and unless american people take back the government america should be considered a terrorist country.
I remember that when I was a tankie I was incredibly vulnerable to Russian propaganda: watching the tank parades in the red square with red army songs and red flags everywhere still being held in modern times made me feel like Putin somehow wanted to bring back something from the USSR. Luckily I stopped being a tankie long ago but this war opened my eyes even more on how stupid I had been and how the USSR I once admired was nothing but the Russian empire with a different name.
It's scary how easy it is to become a tankie these days. (oH hE sAiD tAnKiE, hIS oPiNiOn CaN bE iGnOrEd NoW!) I had become a tankie at one point and didn't even realize it. One day I caught myself defending Stalinist policy and said "wait...wtf when did this happen?". Had to take stock of my beliefs, and what tankie channels I had been watching. Oh man, cringe memory, I just remembered I had been watching BadEmpanada, and even defended that lunatic.
@Weeb Barker I can't add a whole lot because it's been ages since I've watched him, but the worst case I can remember was his video response to Knowing Better. 50 minutes of character assassination with maybe two small valid points.
I really don't understand why it's hard for some to be against imperialism in principal (not only US. imperialism) But then again, that's asking an awful lot to tankies & red fascies to abandon their bigotry.
@@sullen2420 of course Russia is an oligarchy. The tankies & red fascies looks past that, because they are the ones who see Russia as a kind of soviet inheritor for whatever alternative-factual reason they stirr up.
@@sullen2420 Havent they found torture chambers and mass graves in the liberated areas?! The killing doesn't stop if the victim stops defending itself. Ukraine deserves our full support, it is defending itself against a fascist, imperialist force. Shame on you for thinking we should leave over forty million people at the mercy of a serial killer.
I think a lot of these people mistakenly believed that because we were anti-Iraq war that meant we were anti-war. I'm not anti-war. Sometimes war is necessary to defend ourselves and our allies.
Same here. I'm not even totally ant Iraq war, I'm glad they removed Saddam. But it needed to be done to remove Saddam, not because of lies about WMD. And the country should have been rebuilt properly, not simply used as a corporate slush fund for Cheney's defense contractor friends.
@@robinpage2730 Should have just waited for the Arab Spring to topple his ass. There’s a grace myth that Saddam was a stabilizing force in the Middle East despite his reign starting almost immediately with war.
@@robinpage2730 Yea, that's the heinous thing about the US wars in Afghanistan and in Iraq: In both cases, Saddam and the Taliban, we had regimes that deserved to be removed because they were monsters and tyrants. But in both cases, what really happened was that Bush and the neocons wanted a war simply for the sake of having a war (and in case of some of them, the Project For New American Century types, a bizarre domino theory), effectively a war for no reason at all. Which honestly shows in just how bungled up the entire occupations were, everything was haphazard hipshooting grasping at some kind of purpose. It's a miracle Iraq didn't end up like Afghanistan when the US military left.
@@arskakarva7474No shit, the US does whatever makes them more money. Bush wasn’t actually lying when he said Mission Accomplished. You just didn’t understand what the mission was.
and some people are totally evil... its not accurate to just say "everyone is sorta evil" if you just leave it there... thats just some centrist nonsense on its own. food for the fence sitters. honestly, i think its actively counter-productice to push that narrative...
This conversation restored some of my sanity. I'm a socialist in Taiwan, and the only thing keeping me going is knowing that Socialism is not the problem just because Western authcoms keep hijacking and derailing serious projects with braindead cheerleading for ~alternative~ fascist empires. I do my part to diminish the kind of rose tinted perception of the States here, but it's from an informed and less essentialist perspective. Taiwan is the kind of social democracy that conservative americans apparently would rather kill themselves than live in, so I don't value their support for Taiwan an inch beyond its tangible utility. If it wasn't support given purely out of hating China, I'd consider it solid, but it's not, so I don't. That's a far cry from saying "since the US is treaty bound to defend us in an attack, we must be the baddies and should all accept death by chinese hypersonic missiles." You don't find people with opinions like that get out much.
@@donovan4222 that’s not who Taiwan is anymore, though. I’d rather not see it fall into the PRC’s hands, and many Taiwanese agree. That’s enough to justify their independence, which China opposes.
I am one of those rare Russian Vaush fans, and I also was one of those who reached out. Though I bantered about games, art and philosophy a bit, I wanted to come on. I understand why Vaush now turns all down - and it's a wise choice. Though when we emailed the war just began, and his schedule was swamped.
Great convo with a great guest. Sums up a lot of my feelings about leftists and their godawful foreign policy takes. It is the combination of American diabolism, privilege, intellectual laziness, Soviet fascination and romanticism, and the desire to distinguish oneself from mainstream liberals. The last point is something that I always thought about and I am glad you two brought it up. You can see it every time there is leftist disagreement, someone is going to accuse the other party of being a liberal and not a true socialist. I highly suspect that quite a few leftists take positions contrary to mainstream liberals precisely because they want to differentiate themselves from liberals. So if the mainstream liberal position is to support Ukraine with weapons, they will automatically take the contrarian position, which is to support Russia, and work backwards from there. This is why so many pro-peace leftists end up having the same positions as far-right fascists when it comes to Ukraine. Because fascism too is an anti-liberal position. And then when you couple that with decades of Russian (and lately Chinese) propaganda, and add in America's own screwups, it is not hard to see why so many leftists are left brain-poisoned when it comes to foreign policy.
Tooo many US leftists have awful takes on foreign politics and see everything only through US politics. As someone from south-east Europe many of their takes makes me uncomfortable.
@@ExtremeMadnessX Yeah, the whole "Ukraine is full of Nazis so let Russia invade and annex all of Ukraine because Putin good?" hot take always gets me. Talk about a braindead argument.
@arcturionblade1077 My country, Croatia, as well Bosnia and Herzegovina was in similar situation as Ukraine over 25 years ago. As well Kosovo years later. Their arguments against NATO intervention during war in Kosovo always make me uncomfortable. In my country, many people wished that NATO intervened earlier. Thousands of lives could be saved.
@@donovan4222 Would you say then that it can't be a leftist position to help Ukraine defend itself from their imperialist neighbour? Or that it's not ok nor a peaceful action for us eastern European nations join NATO to protect ourselves? Because versions of these two opinions are the most common disagreeable takes among leftists.
@@weedidi7144 He thinks that letting Russia win is based and that Genocide of Ukraine is good because it means there will be 44 million less Nazis in the world.
I used to like hasan due to him spreading decent (be fair, hes an idgit but his reach is huge) lefty messaging to the newer generations, but regarding Hyde 'threatening' hasan after his boxing match (hasan has every right to be nervous with how insane hyde's fans are, not necessarily from hyde himself): Sam hyde is a bridge troll, but Hasan's reactions in his chat and especially at Twitch con were straight up embarassing. He immediately got super aggressive to whoever asked the question and got in a guy he was a foot taller than's face to threaten him when he had the "nerve" to say "wow" after Hasan freaked out simply being asked about Sam Hyde's comment. He has to know that he behaved exactly in the way Sam and his insane fan base wanted, attacking his own fans for bringing it up, not even being able to tamp down the anger for half a second to explain calmly why he won't even entertain the idea. Instead, immediate anger, calling them names, etc.
Hasan cant seem to help himself when it comes to the topic of Russia and Ukraine. Dude will still act like America forced Russia to attack Ukraine and that Ukraine shouldnt get any help because reasons. He tries to dress it up as some weird "I Do not support russia, but Ukraine should look at other options." Like what? People like Hasan only ever appeal to russia and not once do they not look at what benefits Ukraine in Ukraine.
Isn't Hasan that one collaborator of the famous Twitch react streamer, Hasan's Empty Chair? If that's the guy, I remember seeing him once ban a guy for saying "if he's playing other people's content and then getting into drama for it later, perhaps he should just show whose content he's playing to avoid that". That gave him a big mad, he went on a rant about how he did exactly that with the latest drama and bam, banned. Even though he 100% did not do it which was literally one thing which triggered it. It wasn't an ironic joke ban-for-disagreeing either, it was a genuine mald. I don't know much about him, but everything I learn produces a picture of a total tool.
@@tricursor2481 Yeah, that shit was so cringe. I still like Hasan and watch clips often.. but it's obvious when he's being absurd about small shit.. or just out of his element on some topics.
Left leaning Finn here! Please note that the political and ideological left in countries close to Russia are almost entirely pro-Ukranian and anti-Putin. For example Finland joined NATO under leftist government, which just a few years ago would've been unfathomable. So it is not all the left, just those that are a safe distance away from certain Mr. Putiin😅
As an American leftist it certainly is an American centric belief that gives American leftists such bad takes. Being so close to the action your country naturally has less of an internal centric view as Amerocans
This is sort of the dividing line that I've noticed as well: The people who have positive/appeasement-minded opinions about the Russian invasion are generally the people who are least likely to be personally damaged by it. On that note, while some of them are genuinely delusional enough to buy the propaganda, I think there is also another large subset who just see this as a golden opportunity to "upset the balance of power" or "disrupt the narrative" in their own countries. Calculated contrarianism for personal gain rather than for Russia's sake, basically. And honestly, this kind of willingness to shovel innocent people into the fire just so they can score some sort of contrarian dunk on their own peers/leaders is so pettily pragmatic that it's almost admirable (or it would be, if they were ever willing to just own it as that).
As another finnish leftist I can say I agree 100% with u. And this is damn annoying to watch US leftist talk about the war on Ukraine like they have really no idea what's going on in the countries bordering Russia and how their populus feels about the US aiding Ukraine. Almost all leftists in Russias border-countries that are democracies, eventhough they might not agree with all of US excursions into middle east etc, they DO WANT ALL the support the US can give to Ukraine. And to them, US hegemony = safety for our countries, despite the negatives that might come with it.
Know whats sad? I first saw the phrase "american diabolism" from a book by chomsky i picked up when i was a teenager. Chomsky even once dared say that the us military was doing a good thing by supporting Rojava and preventing the turkish government from trying to unalive them all What happened
I am from ex-communist now EU and NATO countries Slovakia and Czech Republic. Far left and far right parties here have one thing in common: love for autocracy. And therefore they support Russia. A great demonstration of the horseshoe theory. Scary thought that they would take over in the Slovak parliamentary elections in September 2023. Thank God I live in Scandinavia already, so I don't have to emigrate to escape the upcoming tyranny.
This might be the most watched video that oz katerji has on TH-cam! And that feels weird, this is an important conversation but he has done so much good work haha
Regardless of that, tankies are already negatively associated with the left wether we want it or not. We need to excommunicate any and all tankies from the left, literally politically purge them.
As Russia's neighboor and ex soviet I don't understand how it's so hard to recognise that Russia is imperialist and always has been one AND is actively acting as such again?
@@donovan4222 look up how Poland got jnto NATO. They straight up blackmailed US politicians to let them in through the Polish diaspora. Also if NATO is a American imperial project its the most benign form of empire that has every existed. Almost no demands and extensive benefits. He'll look at orban and Erdoğan! You don't even need to support American policy to be a part of NATO. American imperialism is a lot more relevant to the context of South America, central asia and the Middle East. Eastern European involvment in the EU and NATO is not an example of American imperialism. For one expansion of the EU weakens American influence not strengthen it, and expansion of NATO is a natural anti imperialist reaction to the Moskowite regimes historic and present behaviour. Even the name "Russia" is imperialist BTW. Because its derived from the title "tsar of all the rus" the "rus" referred to here includes the Ukrainians and the Belarusians. Thus the expansion of NATO into Eastern Europe is a east European self defence reaction.
@@donovan4222 Yeah no. NATO invasion of Yogoslavia was well deserved because of all the horrendous killings that were happening there before NATO stepping in. Everything else you memtioned is not imperialism. Unlike Russia, US never occupied Eastern Europe, killed and deported it's people, stole their property en masse, forbade their culture, religion, forced a foreign language and demeaned the local language and traditions etc. You have no clue what imperialism is, what Russia has done to us.
@@donovan4222 1. NATO never invaded Yugoslavia. It was a strategic bombing campaign that, from what data exists, prevented a genocide. The intervention in Iraq was more imperialist. 2. The economic reforms that lead to most of Eastern Europe's economies to grow rapidly since 1992. Poland for example has had steady economic growth between 1992 and 2020. Estonia has had a economic boom since they escaped from moskowite imperialism. 3. NATO expansion past Germany wasn't American imperialism. It was the people of Eastern Europe having just escaped moskowite imperialism not wanting to be left in a position where they can fall under the moskowite yoke again. Calling it "American imperialism" is quite frankly insulting to the people who were once imprisoned under moskow. 4. The fall of the USSR was to a very large degree to internal causes. The Americans helped by applying pressure economically, but the economic degradation of that incarnation of moskowite imperialism was a natural result of the policies pursued by that regime. Did you know there was no factory producing toilet paper in the Soviet Union till like 1954. The system collapsed because the regime tried to compete militarily without having the economy to support it.
@donovan4222 1. There's a difference between using your airforce to stop a genocide and invading a country. 2. There's a difference between the economic situation during the 90s of places like Poland, Estonia, Czech Republic and Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. The economic liberalisation in the latter was a disaster of corruption and mismanagement. In the former we have some of the strongest and most dynamic economies in Europe. There's a difference in how the 90s panned out in different parts, and under the impression you were referring to places like Poland, Estonia or Czhechia, you know the countries that are more influenced by America, and not those more firmly on the other side of that dichotomy the outcome is that said countries did quite well for themselves once things had stabilized. Look up how Poland got into NATO, because the Americans didn't want to do it out of fear of angering Russia. But the Polish, Czech, Slovak and Hungarian presidents all went to America for a tour. This being just before an election. Thus if the Americans didn't sign off on letting them in they would have just endorsed their political opponents that would then (with the large population of immigrants from these countries) have won and let them in. The American government didn't want to do it, but was forced to to avoid losing the election. I was wrong on the first toilet paper factory, it was in 1969. The Soviet Union was dysfunctional on almost all levels and its eventual collapse was inevitable without considerable reform.
I was so disappointed with Secular Talk over this. He clearly still has those isolationist sentiments, although he hides them behind statements like "We've given Ukraine enough already"
I share this disappointment, though I knew he wouldn't be good on this issue. That being said he's definitely not as bad as he could have been. I'd like him to talk to someone a bit more skilled than Vaush on this. Not denigrating Vaush but I Kyle is....partly reachable. I don't think it would change his mind necessarily but I think its possible to give him a bit more of a fuller picture as to the merits of supporting Ukraine. Someone like Vlad Vexler might be a better choice for this than Vaush
This guy made me realize something about myself too. I am more of a liberal than a leftist for the time being. Sure, in Tito's time I would have been a full blown socialist, but the Marshall is dead and Serbs destroyed everything he built.
It's a remnant of the fascination with the Soviet Union. That wacky Soviet nostalgia. Though the Soviets were state capitalists, but that's neither here nor there. I still think even after the war is over and they've removed all their Lenin statues and Russian colonial remnants from their country that they also need to fucking clean up Lviv of it's nazi collaborator statue and street names etc. Just do what Lithuania did and ban em both.
@@donovan4222 Eastern Europeans tend to view them as equal evils, to be honest - to them, the Soviet occupation was every bit as diabolical as the Nazi one, just with a different flag.
@@donovan4222 It's not a false equivalence, it's precisely a means of avoiding equivalences. It doesn't matter who was worse, if you want to argue about that you can always become a published author. What matters is that X being worse than Y shouldn't give you a free pass to worship Y. So banning both avoids the issue altogether.
Big fan of Oz. He’s never shied away from asking the hard questions of the modern left. We need to examine ourselves in a less navel gazing more honest manner if we actually want to achieve something as a movement. Great interview.
A brilliant conversation that is right on point. I first came to this channel because there was such a void of progressive voices that understood the long-term implications of Putin’s attack on Ukraine or even got that this attack was not an action taken by a nation but one taken by a criminal despot because he fears any neighbor that previously wasn’t strong and stable enough to resist his corrupting influence within its borders becoming so because that would threaten his criminal enterprises there, not that it would threaten the security of his own country’s borders. Russia is a nuclear power, it is obviously not in any danger from any democratic nation whether it possesses nuclear weapons or not. No one wants that type of confrontation so no threat is posed there. The only perceived threat is to the ruthless dictator and his criminal regime which ITSELF is the only threat to Russia and its people. But as a nuclear power run by a criminal tyrant Russia is a threat to any of the free democratic countries around it which are not nuclear powers. If Russia destroys Ukraine and its people why would Poland then not fear it would be next? The talk of a need for a buffer zone is of course pure nonsense which logically collapses upon itself when extended out to its logical conclusion. The bottom line is that a democratic and autonomous Ukraine is no threat to the nation of Russia but if Putin is allowed to succeed in stealing the territory of Ukraine and committing a genocide against its people then the prospect of another European war is certain and the result of that would be the worst devastation the world has ever seen. None of it can be allowed to happen. Ukraine and its people MUST be saved.
I loved this conversation. I really wish everyone who considers themselves remotely left would listen to this entire video. The concept of pushing for peace to ensure imperialist occupation is absolutely ridiculous and unprincipled.
In early 90s Bosnia, the “neutral” arms embargo by NATO caused the Bosnians to be defenseless against the equipment Serbian equipment inherited from the Yugoslav government.
Orwell already covered this in his writings 'Notes on nationalism' and published letters. Pacifists are inherently pro-fascist. And many take the stance that pacifism only applies to the US and UK. That the Soviet Union and others are justified in taking military action even in non-defensive ways
Let's not forget that Bašar al-Assad is an ally of Putin so Russia Today (RT) spreads propaganda that says he's awesome. Kyle Kulinski has fallen for this among other "journalists".
Wow. Great to hear Lebanese voice on this topic. Thanks for the support. Cheers from Kyiv! On a topic of the left jerking off any anti-american personalities: Lately I get the feeling that Americans are not unique in their sort of self-centred read of the world. It's basically what you guys read, hear, and talk about - America, and American problems. So it would be only natural to include this knowledge when facing new information. Honestly, I do exactly the same: When faced with the story of Sudanese war I instantly started searching for the Russian trace. Because that is exactly what Russia did here in Ukraine, Georgia (Sakartvelo), Moldova - they funded the growth of the pro-russian or even ethnically russian politicians and military officers, and used them for the internal sabotage of said countries, when their political goals became unaligned with kremlin. But that said, it would be very easy for me to create conspiracies in my head about some key russian influence on a conflict I know nothing about. Yeah, so basically that's for you a pitch for a self-skepticism method of analysis. =)
I'm Canadian which puts me automatically to the left of most Americans but I've never had any patience with knee-jerk anti-Americanism. With all its faults and whatever its past sins American power properly applied is and will be for the foreseeable future, the keystone of any hope for a rules-based order.
@@noelwallinuppsala actually it is a defined term in US foreign policy. It is based on the ideas of free trade, national sovereignty (aka the idea that what happens in a nation should be decided by its people), and the idea that borders should not be changed through armed conflict. Do these things serve US interests? Yes but that in not the same as it being an arm of us imperialism.
I really think that if someone is anti-war they should also be pro global empire/hegemony. After all conflict between nations is inevitable. However if the conflicting nations have a mutually agreed framework or authority for resolving their disputes an armed conflict can usually be prevented. The US could certainly do much better as far as promoting peace. You can't really deny that the countries that have embraced American Hegemony don't go to war with each other though.
A not-insignificant proportion of the anti-war rally recently in DC had Russia flags, there seemed some kind of overlap between anti-war people and anti-Ukraine people. There were definitely people who were in one camp or the other but some that seemed to flit between both groups depending if the message was going too far in either direction, so there did seem to be some confusion there
@@donovan4222 Godwin's Law is still in effect I see. The world has actually been remarkably peaceful since the end of WWII. That's always a shocking claim to the woefully ignorant, but statistically undeniable.
@queerdo I said wars are less likely under the empire. Did you think conflict and war are synonyms? Your logic is fallacious by the way. Something being inevitable under one paradigm doesn't mean it would be avoidable under a different paradigm.
@queerdo So you're just completely incompetent when discussing logic then. I'll assume you meant A (empire) implies B (war). Not what I claimed, and you've provided no counterargument. We can discuss the logic further though. A => B does not mean !A => !B. This is called denying the antecedent. If you assume empires cause wars it does not logically follow that lack of empires would cause peace. My claim is that lack of a mediator for conflicts is what causes war. An empire or hegemon could provide that for its subjects, as evidenced by Western hegemony's consistent peacefulness between its members. I reason that if the world didn't have other competing hegemonies or unaligned nations most wars could be avoided. I'd think self-described anti-war anti-imperialist Vaush would disagree, so I don't know why you'd call me a vaushite.
The analogy I always like to use is that we're all on a boat, and right now that boat is listing really, really far to Starboard, AKA right for those of us not nautically inclined. Now obviously the solution to this is to tilt the boat to Port (left), and the people who want to tilt the boat even more to the right are fucking insane. But just because tilting the boat to the left is a good thing now, it doesn't mean we should tilt the boat so far over that now we're listing heavily to the left. Because at the end of the day, we can't afford to let the boat capsize, because if it does than no matter what way we want to tilt the boat, we're all gonna end up in the water and wash up on an island with some asshole full of coconuts.
“Why are leftists takes on Russia and Ukraine SO AWFUL?” I don’t know, maybe telling them that communism is good and that the Soviet Union did nothing wrong, the Uyghurs have nothing to worry about and North Korea is a truly democratic society might have something to do with it.
This is very American-centric. Let's add a view from Europe. Our left-wing radicals and communists are supporting Russia directly (because of former ties to the Soviet Union) or indirectly (by trying to stop military aid to Ukraine). Our social democratic parties are usually against Putin, but they obviously dislike the increased military spending this whole situation brings. Our centrist and center-right parties are basically supporting Ukraine. And the more to the right you go, the more the response is split. Conservative parties are supporting Ukraine against Putin. And the xenophobic ones (you know the ones I am talking about, immigration bad, EU bad, UN bad, US bad, believing in all sorts of conspiracies) are supporting Putin (openly praising him) or at least they want to spin the whole situation into isolationism (We have our people home; we don't have to help anyone, which in this case also helps Putin against Ukraine). This situation is actually a rare case in which left wing radicals and right wing radicals support the same thing, Putin.
I also think its the trauma of the post-9/11 wars. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen. Many of these conflicts went belly side up. Wasting money, lives, but also credit...war credit if you will. When the authortarian outsider countries start pushing at the gate. People rather just fold and mind their own business this side of the ocean. America has always been like this though. Both World Wars, the public were not supportive of those conflicts until the outsider came knocking on Americas door. Its a cycle.
There is a problem with the hard left and hard right. There are both working against the middle. When the hard left and hard right meet (give Russia what it wants) then there is a problem. Those positions should not be the same which means they are broken. Normal people support Ukraine. Normal Russians didn't want and don't understand the war.
The US should really get things made now that a rebuilding Ukraine will require and find desireable. If I were President I'd also beef up all the businesses with a monolith and centered manufacturing initiative that would directly benefit the GDP and/or government.
Wokeism is liberalism to the core. There's nothing woke about being a lefty class reductionist communist and they outright admit that they hate woke culture bcos they are fascists in disguise.
Here's my oversimplified take on the 2020s version of Chompsky: I think Chompsky's swing towards a "Realpolitik" angle comes from living so long in this world, he's become jaded and I am at a loss as to why anyone is surprised. He's in his 90s. We can't pretend that age isn't a factor here, and even the most trained and disciplined mind will probably want to find the path of least resistance, and when war is the subject, the path of least resistance is giving in to the demands of the aggressor.
His entire section on Syria from 25:00 - ish onwards mirrors the disillusionment I felt during that conflict too. I certainly don't think of myself as a "leftist" in the way I used to, especially since Ukraine.
I am a social democrat because I don't think that socialists and "socialists" are really ready to implement their ideas. The fact that so many support openly fascist policies because they are anti liberal is a huge red flag.
It’s western leftist. You see a lot in Britain (up to Jeremy Corbyn) and a lot in Central Europe. I know that Germanys biggest communist paper is weirdly pro Russia as well
Fantastic conversation that sums up my attitude shift towards the Western left over the past couple of years. So many people I held in high esteem were extremely disappointing. Chris Hedges had no problem calling out Serbs as genocidal maniacs back in the day. Now he quotes Henry frigging Kissinger to justify Russian appeasement and spreads undiluted Russian propaganda on Donbass. Spectacular fall from grace.
I agree with almost everything, I disagree with one thing - I understand both Vaush's standpoint but also the standpoint of the "tankies" (I am still against Putin and Russian invasion of Ukraine however, even if it was provoked by NATO and the West, Ukraine has the right to defend itself, as Russia killing innocent citizens is clearly the aggressor). The tankies are not Vaush's stereotype of "queer westerner socialists" - I am a queer, young, possibly-western (from Central-to-Eastern Europe), socialist. I don't hate democracy because "it's edgy", I hate it because it took my trans rights (politics and politics in Slovakia, Americans won't probably understand - shortly, I just dislike that democracy is the dictatorship of the majority, and if the majority is transphobic, than so be it - so I'm more of a direct-democracy, rigid constitution with human rights, libertarian/anarchist kind of socialist). American "tankies" are not the same as Slovak tankies, as the material conditions are not the same - and quite frankly, I would rather be with the softer American "tankies", rather than with Eastern-European tankies that are pro-Putin, pro-Wagner, etc... Those are the true tankies that try to look like "socialists", but are actually more like fascists (they are patriotic to even nationalistic, they are against American imperialism but not against Russian imperialism, they like Trump which is ironic, they are homophobic, xenophobic and sexist, etc, etc...) So Vaush talking about these "tankies" (calling SecondThought or Hakim or any moreof a direct-action-type of socialist rather than partisan socialist a "tankie"), is not only counterproductive (against unifying the left), but also makes him look like a lib, and is just totally insensitive against the true tankies here in Slovakia and Eastern Europe...
We absolutely need more voices like Oz who are willing to call out these kind of problems with the left. There are good causes and points to be had on both sides of the aisle, but as these comically extremist viewpoints become normalized, it only detracts from those good points. Very few voices seem willing to go after the lunacy and extremism on their own side. The political landscape has become more tribalist than ever, and I refuse to take part in it. I don't think I can be the only one who feels this way.
I like Hasan, I generally agree with a lot of his takes mainly because I already had similar takes, but his takes on the war and the idea that Crimea belongs to Russia before Ukraine is just so bad. Still love Hasan, his content is like leftist fast food.
Do Americans not know what forging aid is ? It's the u.s government giving a discount on weapons manufactured in America. They are just skiping there own margins. Ukrainian is still paying for the weapons and thet money still is going to the government via taxes ...it's just not quite the amount of money the u.s government would get had they sold the weapons in full price
The US has this peculiar aid policy that is designed to create interdependence. The idea is they will send over aid packages of just money, with the caveat that a large part of that money has to be spent on American products. This aid money gets reinvested into the local economy/industry, forging connections between local and American companies. Thus, these nations become dependent on their relationship with the US to at least some degree, and America also benefits from local innovation.
I'm not sure I'd call journalism dead when Associated Press continues to be reliable for American news, was the bit at 39:05 about foreign news sources like BBC forcing 'equal platforms' or something along those lines? Is it referring to eastern European news sources specifically? There's a lot to criticize about modern journalism, but I hesitate to say it's in its death throes. The best I can figure is that Vaush is referring to being about local newspapers lacking funding, which I'd definitely love to see funded as much as war journalism. Edit: I think 57 minutes in gave me my answer well enough, I definitely wish liberals were more willing to directly call far right actions fascist.
i think in my humble opinion, for communism, democracy is a necessity rather than an option. Otherwise, it's just a synonym for tyranny. E.g the level of concentrated power, exclusivism, and elitist vanguard party demanded by Lenni-Bolshevik style communist rule often becomes a hotbed for corruption, subversion, and eventual fascism; Just think about it, all those Lenni-Bolshevik communist dominions never work, and each carries their own signature dictators and their respective hefty loads of atrocities. Because of this Lenni-Bolshevik style communism, i still have to live in fear.
I really do think it boils down to American exceptionalism but in terms of it being the ultimate big bad. That and the most vocal (online) people that hold this position are almost always fringe minorities whose only friends are other tankies. When the only support system you have is these guys you’re gonna do all you can to keep them happy with you. Every time you see these guys it’s either vatniks or some mentally ill lonely person and that’s the community that accepted them.
So i guess, every leak julian assange and edward snowden realeased, + the new leak that just happended should be ignored right? Americans need to take back america. the shit it does to other nations is horrific.
@@donovan4222 American diabolism, as it was called in this video, is another form of exceptionalism. Both of them see America as the natural center of gravity of the world.
@@donnievance1942 eh, American diabolism and American exceptionalism aren’t the same thing, they are 2 products of the same core issue, thinking america is the only important thing on the planet
American media is occasionally very restrictive of anything a non-American might do better. During the recent Olympics, one British/international news outlet clearly showed two acrobats preforming one after the other. However, the American outlet (CNN?) Zoomed in on the American contestant waiting for her turn, only to pan out when she's up. Completely hiding the last contestants' performance. This can leave an audience with two conclusions: America produces the best outputs that none can compare, or, America is so bad at what it does that it must hide what other countries can do.
Being someone in West Asia. It's probably inconceivable to an American how American media is overarching. From movies, news and music alone, we learn a lot more about Americans than they can learn about us. With the exception of Japanese and Mexican media. Americans aren't exposed to the world. Thus their politics about other countires are about as limited as what national news outlets would want to say.
Tbh I think this is a problem for people in really 'big' countries in general, not just the US (though it's especially bad there, and more visible given the general prevalence of US media). Russians, Chinese, and Indians are just as clueless and ignorant about the outside world for the most part.
When I finished highschool I had to decide between using my knowledge of building "pyrotechnics" out of farm supplies and trying to accelerate a downfall to save the planet or learning engineering and slowly creating an technology base that makes the old system superfluous.
I don't get leftist, liberal, etc as far as fitting yourself in a box Why not take data as it comes and reason / rationalize what you think is right, regardless of where it will make you lean. Oppossing correct views can exist in tandem. Gray is generally the true color, rather than black and white, in my experience.
This guy has some good takes but I don't think that you have to be a centre left social democrat to make them (his takes on supporting revolution whether or not it's good is a bit whack but point taken). Vaush is right, a third camp position is not only compatible, but is essential to contemporary revolutionary socialist thought. Otherwise youre just a fascist masquerading as a lefty "ML". Western/American diabolism is a curse, a broken clock shows the time right twice a day, as does Western foreign policy smh. Neither Washington nor Moscow but the international working class!
This definitely made it hard to listen to his criticism and made some of it a lot weaker by being so strongly black and white, on what is something the average American is just disinterested because it’s 6000 miles away in a country they can’t find on a map. While himself spending the first 20 mins saying they are too black and white but just on the wrong side. Maybe they aren’t saying “Just give the Donbas” and that could be why they “won’t just say it” and arguing with the actual arguments. For how many times he said Hasan the actual shitty arguments said aren’t brought up. It’s an easy dunk why strawman when you have a point. It felt like a circlejerk often.
Just gonna call this out about Manufacturing Consent. I am just finishing it and Chomsky takes so much time repeating himself over and over again. Still an okay book, with a good messages to internalize, but so much repeating.
In my view, the fundamental issue is that many people cannot understand that there is a limited pool of feasible actions or outcomes existing which can be meaningfully differentiated. The truth is that there isn't always a better way and inaction is an action that comes with its own sets of consequences. Sometimes, maintaining a theoretical ideal may sacrifice that very ideal in practice. A closely-related issue is people who want to view everything in black-and-white terms.
I am honestly kind of confused. What leftists are we talking about? Maybe I just don't know any tankies?... I am pretty sure every leftist I know is pretty in agreement that no country should be invading any other country and if they do they shouldn't keep the land that results from that invasion.
We are not pure intellect, we are emotion, With the competitive nature of society, limited space and resources, pressure to succeed by peers and care givers, leads to Neuroticism, which is the trait disposition to experience negative affects, including anger, anxiety, self‐consciousness, irritability, emotional instability, paranoia and depression. Is it any wonder we are all confused, on drugs, mentally Ill, desperate for order out of chaos, Unfortunately people are desperate and reach for populist, than they accept ever more authoritarian policies. I!HO, a degree of emotional intelligence is just as important as Cognitive intelligence. Only with both is wisdom possible..
@Donovan Thank you for immediately proving me right. No, we are not using Ukraine. What we are doing is giving them the aid that They 1st asked us for because They want to defend Their country from an invasion by the authoritarian imperialist superpower.
What leftists? Let's see, Hasan, Kyle Kulinsky, Noam Chomsky, Richard Wolff, Jeremy Corbyn, numerous DSA chapters... Plenty of leftists think that countries deserve to be invaded because they lean West.
Russian regime has changed from what it was couple years ago. Ukraine is a territory the regime uses to escalate tensions against West. This escalation will continue all the way till the very end unless regime gets what it wants or external force ties their hands.
All it takes to disprove Chomsky’s take is to accept that this is a war between nato and Ukraine, it’s not, and then make the argument that NATO is bad sure but it’s just way better than Russia, so NATO should win because no matter what the result is, Russia will not stop if it doesn’t lose.
You mean it's a war between NATO and Russia, right? As far as who is "way better", such infantile arguments would not sway Chomsky, nor do they address his critiques of US foreign policy in the first place. The very suggestion underlies a fundamental misunderstanding of his position. By this logic you could justify virtually any US foreign policy in at least last 20 years and likely even longer. Sure George W Bush was bad, but he is way better than Saddam was, right? Why not argue for direct confrontation between US and Russia on that basis? After all, Biden is way better than Putin, is he not?
@Miguel Garay Well, you could kinda make a "double Horseshoe". Where one set of prongs, represents the likeness between authoritarians, and the other set of prongs represent the utopian wishfulness of the libertarians. Sure, the political theory of the prongs don't agree, but the whole idea of the horseshoe was that, theory doesn't exactly matter, when you're confronted with the reality that from the inside there isn't much difference between a gulag cell, and a KZ camp barrack.
"Liberal Democracy wasnt built to withstand forces that attack from within!" thats not true, just look at Germany however you have to create these safeguards and maintain them properly. Their experience with a fascist dictatorship which took power from a LD taught them how to protect themselves! Its the older democracies which suffer from this creational flaw.
I mean, it's why I still use "horseshoe theory" as a kinda yardstick to kinda predict the plausible outcomes of the extreme wings. It's not to understand political theory, but merely the observation that, there isn't that many differences between authoritarians. A gulag, and a KZ camp look very similar from the inside. I heard the same mechanism be described as "the authoritarian black hole" somewhere else.
American diabolism and American exceptionalism represent two sides of the same fundamental problem: people in America being self-centered and ignorant of the outside world
It’s spread well outside the US. Look and Chinese and Russian statements. They believe anyone calling them out is a stooge or controlled by America.
It's not just Americans. You see leftists from all over the world do this. Utter fucking clowns, proof that even people you might agree with believe what they believe for all of the wrong reasons, possibly because of some sort of ideological hivemind, the desire to be part of a "team". This is a human fundamental problem. Humanity will NEVER get well.
Oh I am french and trust me the stupid left is not only here
Yea, American diabolism uncritically accepts the premise of America being essentially geopolitically omnipotent and all-important to the rest of the world.
@@nextlevelgamer6936 well, it is omnipotent, but China and Russia would be far far worse if they had the same power as the us
I honestly think it’s due in large part to an American-centric outlook among those honest types who aren’t shills for RT. Even among people who claim to be critical of the US’s role in the world (and it is often justified to be critical tbf), it’s clear they still have trouble conceiving of the fact that other states have agency outside of the US. To them, everything is always caused by something the US or NATO does. Other states only act in response to something the US does. This is very clear in how the “Anti-imperialist” types characterize Russia’s actions in Ukraine as them “responding” to an aggressive NATO.
They can’t acknowledge the fact that other states and countries have their own ambitions and that Russia is just as able to act aggressively as the US. It is a very bizarre form of American exceptionalism.
Negative American exceptionalism or American diabolism as Vaush described it.
Maybe if we tell them Russia is America with vodka they'd get over it.
9/11 is a prime example
I call this effect "Nations Corrupting State Department Magic" fallacy.
@@EdwardSkihands you might wanna workshop that...
The Soviet Union was the worst thing to ever happen to socialism.
Im more convinced that it was just another Russian nationalist state but used communism as a cover and it's leaders were essentially just Bonapartists who used an opportunity to gain positions of power. It wasn't ever about socialism. Just Russian Imperialism first
Indeed. Its legacy and the association between that fascist shitstain and socialism has pushed so many away from leftism.
There's some competition for that title.
Seriously though. Just the removal of lysenko from history would save millions
The CCP is definitely giving the history books a run for the USSR's money
If I had one line to say to tankies it would be “if you go against the system 100% of the time just by default, you’re still being controlled by the system”
Neat observation.
I don't think you would get a productive response, but it is a witty quip.
My uncle is a tankie and has been for decades. This wouldn't work on him because he believes people are incapable of independent agency or thought, and that as such everyone is controlled (including himself)
its a weird twist on conspiratorialism, where the world is defined by competing propagandas. There is no truth, no agency, nothing, only instructions. Everything he thinks he has to be told what to think, and he thinks this is the same for everyone and its merely a matter of who controls the flow of information
THere's a certain religiosity about it, where truth itself is prescriptive rather than descriptive
@@jascu4251literally 1984 groupthink
@@jascu4251 Sounds like severe trauma. That's the kind of mentality fascism attempts to instill in people through gratuitous abuse. That's why you see people who have been broken like that coming out of, say, American Christian cults.
I think the answer is simply in complacency. People in the west have just lost sight of what life under a dictator is like, what war is actually like to live through, and how lucky they are to live in the century that they do.
I’m not saying this out of a conservative point of view, since I still think there are a lot of ways we can improve our situation. However, a lot of leftists bought the idea that somehow if we just got rid of America, socialism would magically arrive in the world.
That’s not how empires work, that’s not how imperial collapses work, and that certainly isn’t how socialism works.
Just because you fight one empire doesn’t mean that imperialism suddenly ends. It just means one empire is weakened, allowing for other empires to rise in its place.
This is especially dangerous, when the imperial system you are attempting to weaken is a flawed liberal democracy, and it’s replacements are all authoritarian dictatorships.
Animal Farm was about this.
The left in Europe remembers and we live relatively close to Russia and Ukraine. The entire idea of the European union was grounded in peace between countries through fossil fuel deals.theres are for why the EU is making it's own defense. It's bad enough that Orban is on the inside the union.
I watched a lecture on TH-cam a couple of days ago called "Why Ukraine Is The West's Fault' featuring 'John Mearsheimer'. This lecture was given before the war began last February. It was uploaded 7 years ago.
His main points all fell in the realms of a very America-centric view of "Ukraine isn't a strategically important country (not true) so why are we fighting for it?" and "How can WE direct Ukraine into going down the path of neutrality"... Like Ukrainians are supposed to see their own country as a mere cog in the machine of greater geopolitics and accept whatever deal the Russians threw at them as he felt Russia had a right to feel "threatened". It was ironic as he argued that Putin knew Russia would never be able to take Ukraine even though Ukraine didn't really have an army not so long ago and were in no fit state to pose any threat to Russia. Also if there was some justification to that claim, why did they invade Ukraine under the excuse of "de-nazification" ?
He absolutely fell apart in the Q&A thanks to one neutral question.
1. He mentioned Russia had offered Ukraine a very good deal. I have no idea what deal he was talking about and haven't had the chance to research into it, but claimed it was a better deal than what the EU were giving them (remember this lecture was uploaded 7 years ago). In the Q&A an audience member asked him about the specifics of this deal. He couldn't name any. While I wouldn't expect him to be able to recite the entire thing, if you came to the conclusion that the deal was "better" that would imply you had compared the two choices and came to the conclusion that one was better - you should at least remember something.
Realism is the sociopathic ideology that led to the Monroe doctrine and the slaughter of countless people in Latin America, so it's weird to see supposed leftists citing a realist approach for why we should let Russia destroy Ukraine.
Since you said this was seven years ago, he probably meant the EU-Ukrainian Association Agreement. Basically, Euratom (the EU energy group) agreed to an energy-sharing policy as a way to start onboarding Ukraine into the Combined Market, basically to start small and build trust.
They took this deal at the expense of the Eurasian Economic Union (eg, Russia and Co.), which tried to bribe them by offering far more. It should be noted: The EEU is ostensibly a democratic body where members can vote to cut off all EUU trade with other nations, and of course Russia dominates the vote so FUNCTIONALLY they have the power to cut off trade between any EUU nation and groups/nations they don't like.
EDIT: Also John Mearsheimer is a once-respected political philosopher who went crazy about 12 years back. He's an Offensive Realist who somehow decided the logical conclusion of Offensive Realism was that the rule of hegemonic powers was inevitable, thus any nation that wasn't able to become one should just submit to their nearest neighbour for the "greater good".
@@donovan4222 genocide? I don’t remember US officials openly saying Iraqis needed to be exterminated.
That’s a lot of words to type about a video Vaush has already analyzed
@@donovan4222 the dude is a fake realist and wrong on so many points it hurts Nato already borders russia anyway
Jason Call, one of the leftists who ran for Congress in 2022 and is now working for Marianne Williamson's campaign once got into an argument with me over peace and his answer to the "Russia has nukes so we shouldn't antagonize them" was to just give Russia everything they wanted regardless of how crazy or extreme it is.
What's even more disturbing is that people actually think that way. If those people got into power they'd be the biggest most spineless suckers on earth. Putin and Kim and Xi are banking on using threats of nuclear war to keep pushing and pushing back against democracy. And appeasement is the problem. What would happen if one day Russia threatened to nuke Alaska if the US didn't give it up? They've already threatened to nuke Ukraine if it doesn't surrender. The world would be a worse place if nobody called their bluff.
@@Enkarashaddam While I disagree with those people, it is at least a coherent worldview, it makes a logical sense at least. This is a huge step up from the ever-shifting world of satanists. nazis. nato did it, it never happened, they did it to themselves etc that is impossible to pin down
People who think this about the nuclear threat, you can at least have a conversation with them and discuss it without it going wild (unless they also think all the other stuff in which case you've no chance of having a real conversation or discussion)
Fear is a disease.
@@ezachleewright2309 - "Fear is the mind killer, the little-death that brings total obliteration."
This is the weird thing I can't get over. Many claim they aren't left or right or pro Russian. Just pro peace. And in their mind the way to peace always seems to be "give Russia what it wanrs". Rewarding warmongering seems like pretty pro war opinion to me.
It’s worth noting that foreign policy has always been a sticking point that factionalizes leftists. For example, the 2nd Socialist International broke up because of disputes over WWI. The America First Committee, which was formed to protest the US’s involvement in WWII, consisted both of fascists and prominent socialists. Socialism by itself is best equipped for domestic issues, it needs additional ideologies to inform foreign policy.
Wonder if any major leftie creator has done a serious look into selectorate theory, because it offers the best analysis of this effect out of anything.
Fun fact about the America First Committee: funded by the Nazi government! A lot of them literally had speeches written by Nazi government officials!
True, anarchists in the 30s were torn over involvement in WWII. Some took a similar stance to leftists today who want "peace in Ukraine" without really addressing the role of the invader as the point of the defense. But today we see WWII as peak antifa action, especially with the forming of popular fronts of formerly opposing partisans to combat fascism.
Do you think that has a connection to the horseshoe theory? For instance, I heard about a woman who was Bernie or Bust but later became temporarily supportive of the QAnon conspiracy theory, due to her distrust of the establishment. She believed the pro-imperialist establishment Democrats rigged the system against Bernie. There seems too be a remarkable overlap between the views Marxist-Leninists and the populist right
Nice to be reminded that every generation of leftists fail to realize that peace at all costs always capitulates to the aggressor.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to drink.
American diabolism but also a deep-rooted guilt complex that makes some leftists feel uncomfortable criticising other countries, like Russia, China, or Iran, because it’s either not our place to do so or because we have wronged these countries in the past in some way
I'm pretty sure at this point that this is largely because American leftists are mostly traumatized refugees from American religious conservatism, which has an even more abusive attitude toward enforcing guilt and self-loathing than the Catholic church.
Truuuue
It's the common leftist self-hatred and misplaced guilt. Misguided BS basically.
"in some way"
you mean like in ways that look identical to what is going on now? Yeeesss, very strange.
but true leftism is internationalist. it's literally everyones place to try to improve the whole world
This isn’t just a problem on the American Left either - look at Lula over in Brazil for some absolutely braindead foreign policy takes as well. One poster had it right when they said that democratic socialism as an ideology by itself doesn’t necessarily provide a coherent framework for reasoning through foreign policy issues.
What does the B in BRICS stand for?
Yep, Lula cozying up to Putin isn't a good look for international leftism.
Lula's problem is far more personal. His formative years were during the US-backed military dictatorship in Brazil, so because of that he deeply distrusts US foreign policy and will buddy up with anyone he perceives as being anti-US. It's a petty grudge but it's one that makes historical sense.
@@theshadowsagas3617 yeah no i 100% get south american distrust of america and anybody who doesn't at least understand, if not outright agree with the south american left on these issues, is historically illiterate
@@donovan4222 Let's dispense with the bullshit and get to heart of the matter? Do you think Russia is a fascist shit regime that needs to be defeated or should Ukraine concede to them.
To be fair I used to watch Hasan and stopped because of his "everything that is bad is America's fault" we can acknowledge our faults and history without being hateful.
Ur oligarchs have hijaked ur government by scaring everyone that government means communism and dictatorship. So the rich can now have socialism for them self and capitalims for the people. Its is by criminals for criminals and unless american people take back the government america should be considered a terrorist country.
Yet he still has bad Ukraine takes sometimes
@@donovan4222 You sound too parasocial.
Except a lot is America's fault.
But a lot of the things he talks about are pointing out American involvement without being an apologist
I remember that when I was a tankie I was incredibly vulnerable to Russian propaganda: watching the tank parades in the red square with red army songs and red flags everywhere still being held in modern times made me feel like Putin somehow wanted to bring back something from the USSR. Luckily I stopped being a tankie long ago but this war opened my eyes even more on how stupid I had been and how the USSR I once admired was nothing but the Russian empire with a different name.
It's scary how easy it is to become a tankie these days. (oH hE sAiD tAnKiE, hIS oPiNiOn CaN bE iGnOrEd NoW!)
I had become a tankie at one point and didn't even realize it. One day I caught myself defending Stalinist policy and said "wait...wtf when did this happen?". Had to take stock of my beliefs, and what tankie channels I had been watching.
Oh man, cringe memory, I just remembered I had been watching BadEmpanada, and even defended that lunatic.
@@TrepidDestiny tell me about everything bad with BadEmpanada in details pls.
@@donovan4222 Apparently nothing is serious in this world anymore.
@Weeb Barker I can't add a whole lot because it's been ages since I've watched him, but the worst case I can remember was his video response to Knowing Better. 50 minutes of character assassination with maybe two small valid points.
@@BerserkerLuke Wasn't he the guy who did apologia for Hamas' "jewish genocide" rhetoric too?
I really don't understand why it's hard for some to be against imperialism in principal (not only US. imperialism) But then again, that's asking an awful lot to tankies & red fascies to abandon their bigotry.
You know that Russia is an oligarchy, not communist, right? Why use the word tankie if you also want tanks rolling through the streets?
@@sullen2420 of course Russia is an oligarchy. The tankies & red fascies looks past that, because they are the ones who see Russia as a kind of soviet inheritor for whatever alternative-factual reason they stirr up.
@@sullen2420 Havent they found torture chambers and mass graves in the liberated areas?! The killing doesn't stop if the victim stops defending itself. Ukraine deserves our full support, it is defending itself against a fascist, imperialist force. Shame on you for thinking we should leave over forty million people at the mercy of a serial killer.
@@sullen2420 Because it's the tankies that are supporting Russia right now
@@sullen2420 we're not calling Russia tankies. The tankies are the Americans who think Russia is communist
I think a lot of these people mistakenly believed that because we were anti-Iraq war that meant we were anti-war. I'm not anti-war. Sometimes war is necessary to defend ourselves and our allies.
Same here. I'm not even totally ant Iraq war, I'm glad they removed Saddam. But it needed to be done to remove Saddam, not because of lies about WMD. And the country should have been rebuilt properly, not simply used as a corporate slush fund for Cheney's defense contractor friends.
@@robinpage2730 Should have just waited for the Arab Spring to topple his ass. There’s a grace myth that Saddam was a stabilizing force in the Middle East despite his reign starting almost immediately with war.
@@robinpage2730 terrible planning, bad execution and lying to get us into the war.
@@robinpage2730 Yea, that's the heinous thing about the US wars in Afghanistan and in Iraq: In both cases, Saddam and the Taliban, we had regimes that deserved to be removed because they were monsters and tyrants. But in both cases, what really happened was that Bush and the neocons wanted a war simply for the sake of having a war (and in case of some of them, the Project For New American Century types, a bizarre domino theory), effectively a war for no reason at all. Which honestly shows in just how bungled up the entire occupations were, everything was haphazard hipshooting grasping at some kind of purpose. It's a miracle Iraq didn't end up like Afghanistan when the US military left.
@@arskakarva7474No shit, the US does whatever makes them more money. Bush wasn’t actually lying when he said Mission Accomplished. You just didn’t understand what the mission was.
I'll happily trick the American war machine into doing the right thing.
Yeah, this may be one of the few times the US's military industrial complex makes a positive impact on the world.
@@donovan4222 I mean it is helping fight off Russian imperialist expansion
@@donovan4222 not the same. We are backing a democratically elected government being unjustly invaded by its neighbor.
@@donovan4222 80's or 00's?
@@donovan4222
So, Russia isn't an Imperialist Power expanding into Ukraine?
The whole "everyone is sorta good and sorta evil" is a life lesson that would be so good for everyone to understand.
and some people are totally evil... its not accurate to just say "everyone is sorta evil" if you just leave it there... thats just some centrist nonsense on its own. food for the fence sitters.
honestly, i think its actively counter-productice to push that narrative...
The ruzzian regime is purely evil. It was ruzzias own actions which caused the Baltics and former soviet republics to join NATO in the first place.
Im the good guy.
And thats a based take, no joke.
@donovan4222 no, just stop.
It's an invasion
This conversation restored some of my sanity. I'm a socialist in Taiwan, and the only thing keeping me going is knowing that Socialism is not the problem just because Western authcoms keep hijacking and derailing serious projects with braindead cheerleading for ~alternative~ fascist empires. I do my part to diminish the kind of rose tinted perception of the States here, but it's from an informed and less essentialist perspective. Taiwan is the kind of social democracy that conservative americans apparently would rather kill themselves than live in, so I don't value their support for Taiwan an inch beyond its tangible utility. If it wasn't support given purely out of hating China, I'd consider it solid, but it's not, so I don't. That's a far cry from saying "since the US is treaty bound to defend us in an attack, we must be the baddies and should all accept death by chinese hypersonic missiles." You don't find people with opinions like that get out much.
@@donovan4222 yawn
Taiwan was not colonized after the war, and it is not a dictatorship anymore.
@@donovan4222 that’s not who Taiwan is anymore, though. I’d rather not see it fall into the PRC’s hands, and many Taiwanese agree. That’s enough to justify their independence, which China opposes.
@@donovan4222 that’s because China threatens action against them if they do declare independence.
@@donovan4222 Based
I am one of those rare Russian Vaush fans, and I also was one of those who reached out. Though I bantered about games, art and philosophy a bit, I wanted to come on. I understand why Vaush now turns all down - and it's a wise choice. Though when we emailed the war just began, and his schedule was swamped.
👺
Because isolationism is a reactionary tendency. And those people aren't leftists.....their priorities reveal as much.
💯/💯
They would let Japan and Germany take over the world during WW2
@@donovan4222 no hunny. Google is your friend
Great convo with a great guest. Sums up a lot of my feelings about leftists and their godawful foreign policy takes. It is the combination of American diabolism, privilege, intellectual laziness, Soviet fascination and romanticism, and the desire to distinguish oneself from mainstream liberals.
The last point is something that I always thought about and I am glad you two brought it up. You can see it every time there is leftist disagreement, someone is going to accuse the other party of being a liberal and not a true socialist. I highly suspect that quite a few leftists take positions contrary to mainstream liberals precisely because they want to differentiate themselves from liberals. So if the mainstream liberal position is to support Ukraine with weapons, they will automatically take the contrarian position, which is to support Russia, and work backwards from there.
This is why so many pro-peace leftists end up having the same positions as far-right fascists when it comes to Ukraine. Because fascism too is an anti-liberal position. And then when you couple that with decades of Russian (and lately Chinese) propaganda, and add in America's own screwups, it is not hard to see why so many leftists are left brain-poisoned when it comes to foreign policy.
Tooo many US leftists have awful takes on foreign politics and see everything only through US politics. As someone from south-east Europe many of their takes makes me uncomfortable.
@@ExtremeMadnessX Yeah, the whole "Ukraine is full of Nazis so let Russia invade and annex all of Ukraine because Putin good?" hot take always gets me. Talk about a braindead argument.
@arcturionblade1077 My country, Croatia, as well Bosnia and Herzegovina was in similar situation as Ukraine over 25 years ago. As well Kosovo years later. Their arguments against NATO intervention during war in Kosovo always make me uncomfortable. In my country, many people wished that NATO intervened earlier. Thousands of lives could be saved.
@@donovan4222 Would you say then that it can't be a leftist position to help Ukraine defend itself from their imperialist neighbour? Or that it's not ok nor a peaceful action for us eastern European nations join NATO to protect ourselves?
Because versions of these two opinions are the most common disagreeable takes among leftists.
@@weedidi7144 He thinks that letting Russia win is based and that Genocide of Ukraine is good because it means there will be 44 million less Nazis in the world.
Hasan banned me on twitch because I said he was wrong one time. Literally the most fragile man on the planet 😂
I used to like hasan due to him spreading decent (be fair, hes an idgit but his reach is huge) lefty messaging to the newer generations, but regarding Hyde 'threatening' hasan after his boxing match (hasan has every right to be nervous with how insane hyde's fans are, not necessarily from hyde himself):
Sam hyde is a bridge troll, but Hasan's reactions in his chat and especially at Twitch con were straight up embarassing. He immediately got super aggressive to whoever asked the question and got in a guy he was a foot taller than's face to threaten him when he had the "nerve" to say "wow" after Hasan freaked out simply being asked about Sam Hyde's comment.
He has to know that he behaved exactly in the way Sam and his insane fan base wanted, attacking his own fans for bringing it up, not even being able to tamp down the anger for half a second to explain calmly why he won't even entertain the idea. Instead, immediate anger, calling them names, etc.
Hasan cant seem to help himself when it comes to the topic of Russia and Ukraine. Dude will still act like America forced Russia to attack Ukraine and that Ukraine shouldnt get any help because reasons.
He tries to dress it up as some weird "I Do not support russia, but Ukraine should look at other options." Like what? People like Hasan only ever appeal to russia and not once do they not look at what benefits Ukraine in Ukraine.
It's generally very easy to get banned in hasan channel, its heavily moderated
Isn't Hasan that one collaborator of the famous Twitch react streamer, Hasan's Empty Chair? If that's the guy, I remember seeing him once ban a guy for saying "if he's playing other people's content and then getting into drama for it later, perhaps he should just show whose content he's playing to avoid that". That gave him a big mad, he went on a rant about how he did exactly that with the latest drama and bam, banned. Even though he 100% did not do it which was literally one thing which triggered it. It wasn't an ironic joke ban-for-disagreeing either, it was a genuine mald. I don't know much about him, but everything I learn produces a picture of a total tool.
@@tricursor2481 Yeah, that shit was so cringe. I still like Hasan and watch clips often.. but it's obvious when he's being absurd about small shit.. or just out of his element on some topics.
Left leaning Finn here! Please note that the political and ideological left in countries close to Russia are almost entirely pro-Ukranian and anti-Putin. For example Finland joined NATO under leftist government, which just a few years ago would've been unfathomable. So it is not all the left, just those that are a safe distance away from certain Mr. Putiin😅
As an American leftist it certainly is an American centric belief that gives American leftists such bad takes. Being so close to the action your country naturally has less of an internal centric view as Amerocans
@@donovan4222Ignorant and arrogant tankie that think they know better than people who live near Russia.
This is sort of the dividing line that I've noticed as well: The people who have positive/appeasement-minded opinions about the Russian invasion are generally the people who are least likely to be personally damaged by it.
On that note, while some of them are genuinely delusional enough to buy the propaganda, I think there is also another large subset who just see this as a golden opportunity to "upset the balance of power" or "disrupt the narrative" in their own countries. Calculated contrarianism for personal gain rather than for Russia's sake, basically.
And honestly, this kind of willingness to shovel innocent people into the fire just so they can score some sort of contrarian dunk on their own peers/leaders is so pettily pragmatic that it's almost admirable (or it would be, if they were ever willing to just own it as that).
As another finnish leftist I can say I agree 100% with u. And this is damn annoying to watch US leftist talk about the war on Ukraine like they have really no idea what's going on in the countries bordering Russia and how their populus feels about the US aiding Ukraine. Almost all leftists in Russias border-countries that are democracies, eventhough they might not agree with all of US excursions into middle east etc, they DO WANT ALL the support the US can give to Ukraine. And to them, US hegemony = safety for our countries, despite the negatives that might come with it.
@@zombieoverlord5173 America is literally a two-hour boat drive away from Russia
I disagree that the first step was 2014-it was 2008. Pls don't forget us, guys!
Love to Georgia from the US! 🇬🇪 🇬🇪❤🤍
I was 25 when Putler attacked you guys. Now I'm 40 and looking forward to the day when Georgia sees him buried.
The first step overall was Chechnya I think. I'd love nothing more than give Georgia NATO protection
@@legion999 I'm pretty sure there were examples even before the Chechens, but I can't remember them
Know whats sad? I first saw the phrase "american diabolism" from a book by chomsky i picked up when i was a teenager. Chomsky even once dared say that the us military was doing a good thing by supporting Rojava and preventing the turkish government from trying to unalive them all
What happened
I am from ex-communist now EU and NATO countries Slovakia and Czech Republic. Far left and far right parties here have one thing in common: love for autocracy. And therefore they support Russia. A great demonstration of the horseshoe theory. Scary thought that they would take over in the Slovak parliamentary elections in September 2023. Thank God I live in Scandinavia already, so I don't have to emigrate to escape the upcoming tyranny.
This might be the most watched video that oz katerji has on TH-cam! And that feels weird, this is an important conversation but he has done so much good work haha
Calling Tankies "Leftists" is pretty charitable lol
@@TurtleChad1 yeah theyre p cool
Unfortunately it's not just tankies. Chomsky is far from a tankie and he also thinks Russia should be allowed to genocide Ukraine
It’s the equivalent of calling strasserite Nazis leftists.
Regardless of that, tankies are already negatively associated with the left wether we want it or not. We need to excommunicate any and all tankies from the left, literally politically purge them.
@@rockmycd1319 they're identical, just with a different aesthetic
As Russia's neighboor and ex soviet I don't understand how it's so hard to recognise that Russia is imperialist and always has been one AND is actively acting as such again?
@@donovan4222 There has never been a "US imperialism on Eastern Europe" and I lived in Eastern Europe my whole life so I would know.
@@donovan4222 look up how Poland got jnto NATO.
They straight up blackmailed US politicians to let them in through the Polish diaspora. Also if NATO is a American imperial project its the most benign form of empire that has every existed. Almost no demands and extensive benefits.
He'll look at orban and Erdoğan! You don't even need to support American policy to be a part of NATO.
American imperialism is a lot more relevant to the context of South America, central asia and the Middle East.
Eastern European involvment in the EU and NATO is not an example of American imperialism. For one expansion of the EU weakens American influence not strengthen it, and expansion of NATO is a natural anti imperialist reaction to the Moskowite regimes historic and present behaviour.
Even the name "Russia" is imperialist BTW. Because its derived from the title "tsar of all the rus" the "rus" referred to here includes the Ukrainians and the Belarusians. Thus the expansion of NATO into Eastern Europe is a east European self defence reaction.
@@donovan4222 Yeah no. NATO invasion of Yogoslavia was well deserved because of all the horrendous killings that were happening there before NATO stepping in. Everything else you memtioned is not imperialism. Unlike Russia, US never occupied Eastern Europe, killed and deported it's people, stole their property en masse, forbade their culture, religion, forced a foreign language and demeaned the local language and traditions etc. You have no clue what imperialism is, what Russia has done to us.
@@donovan4222
1. NATO never invaded Yugoslavia. It was a strategic bombing campaign that, from what data exists, prevented a genocide. The intervention in Iraq was more imperialist.
2. The economic reforms that lead to most of Eastern Europe's economies to grow rapidly since 1992. Poland for example has had steady economic growth between 1992 and 2020. Estonia has had a economic boom since they escaped from moskowite imperialism.
3. NATO expansion past Germany wasn't American imperialism. It was the people of Eastern Europe having just escaped moskowite imperialism not wanting to be left in a position where they can fall under the moskowite yoke again. Calling it "American imperialism" is quite frankly insulting to the people who were once imprisoned under moskow.
4. The fall of the USSR was to a very large degree to internal causes. The Americans helped by applying pressure economically, but the economic degradation of that incarnation of moskowite imperialism was a natural result of the policies pursued by that regime. Did you know there was no factory producing toilet paper in the Soviet Union till like 1954. The system collapsed because the regime tried to compete militarily without having the economy to support it.
@donovan4222
1. There's a difference between using your airforce to stop a genocide and invading a country.
2. There's a difference between the economic situation during the 90s of places like Poland, Estonia, Czech Republic and Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. The economic liberalisation in the latter was a disaster of corruption and mismanagement. In the former we have some of the strongest and most dynamic economies in Europe. There's a difference in how the 90s panned out in different parts, and under the impression you were referring to places like Poland, Estonia or Czhechia, you know the countries that are more influenced by America, and not those more firmly on the other side of that dichotomy the outcome is that said countries did quite well for themselves once things had stabilized.
Look up how Poland got into NATO, because the Americans didn't want to do it out of fear of angering Russia. But the Polish, Czech, Slovak and Hungarian presidents all went to America for a tour. This being just before an election. Thus if the Americans didn't sign off on letting them in they would have just endorsed their political opponents that would then (with the large population of immigrants from these countries) have won and let them in. The American government didn't want to do it, but was forced to to avoid losing the election.
I was wrong on the first toilet paper factory, it was in 1969. The Soviet Union was dysfunctional on almost all levels and its eventual collapse was inevitable without considerable reform.
I was so disappointed with Secular Talk over this.
He clearly still has those isolationist sentiments, although he hides them behind statements like "We've given Ukraine enough already"
I share this disappointment, though I knew he wouldn't be good on this issue. That being said he's definitely not as bad as he could have been. I'd like him to talk to someone a bit more skilled than Vaush on this. Not denigrating Vaush but I Kyle is....partly reachable. I don't think it would change his mind necessarily but I think its possible to give him a bit more of a fuller picture as to the merits of supporting Ukraine. Someone like Vlad Vexler might be a better choice for this than Vaush
As long as Russian soldiers on Ukrainian land are still breathing, we haven't given them enough.
@@JillLulamoonCalm down.
This guy made me realize something about myself too. I am more of a liberal than a leftist for the time being. Sure, in Tito's time I would have been a full blown socialist, but the Marshall is dead and Serbs destroyed everything he built.
This is a very honest realization. The pro Ukraine folks are thoroughly Liberals not Socialists
Why do all the best dictators think they'll live forever?
It's a remnant of the fascination with the Soviet Union. That wacky Soviet nostalgia. Though the Soviets were state capitalists, but that's neither here nor there. I still think even after the war is over and they've removed all their Lenin statues and Russian colonial remnants from their country that they also need to fucking clean up Lviv of it's nazi collaborator statue and street names etc. Just do what Lithuania did and ban em both.
@@donovan4222 Eastern Europeans tend to view them as equal evils, to be honest - to them, the Soviet occupation was every bit as diabolical as the Nazi one, just with a different flag.
@@donovan4222 Tankies are not communists. Cope and seethe
@@donovan4222 Donny the Vatnik sniffing up new Ls to collect like a bloodhound
@@donovan4222 🤡
@@donovan4222 It's not a false equivalence, it's precisely a means of avoiding equivalences. It doesn't matter who was worse, if you want to argue about that you can always become a published author. What matters is that X being worse than Y shouldn't give you a free pass to worship Y. So banning both avoids the issue altogether.
Big fan of Oz. He’s never shied away from asking the hard questions of the modern left. We need to examine ourselves in a less navel gazing more honest manner if we actually want to achieve something as a movement. Great interview.
A brilliant conversation that is right on point. I first came to this channel because there was such a void of progressive voices that understood the long-term implications of Putin’s attack on Ukraine or even got that this attack was not an action taken by a nation but one taken by a criminal despot because he fears any neighbor that previously wasn’t strong and stable enough to resist his corrupting influence within its borders becoming so because that would threaten his criminal enterprises there, not that it would threaten the security of his own country’s borders. Russia is a nuclear power, it is obviously not in any danger from any democratic nation whether it possesses nuclear weapons or not. No one wants that type of confrontation so no threat is posed there. The only perceived threat is to the ruthless dictator and his criminal regime which ITSELF is the only threat to Russia and its people. But as a nuclear power run by a criminal tyrant Russia is a threat to any of the free democratic countries around it which are not nuclear powers. If Russia destroys Ukraine and its people why would Poland then not fear it would be next? The talk of a need for a buffer zone is of course pure nonsense which logically collapses upon itself when extended out to its logical conclusion.
The bottom line is that a democratic and autonomous Ukraine is no threat to the nation of Russia but if Putin is allowed to succeed in stealing the territory of Ukraine and committing a genocide against its people then the prospect of another European war is certain and the result of that would be the worst devastation the world has ever seen. None of it can be allowed to happen. Ukraine and its people MUST be saved.
You should get this guy on more, if he wants to of course. Fun vid
I loved this conversation. I really wish everyone who considers themselves remotely left would listen to this entire video. The concept of pushing for peace to ensure imperialist occupation is absolutely ridiculous and unprincipled.
In early 90s Bosnia, the “neutral” arms embargo by NATO caused the Bosnians to be defenseless against the equipment Serbian equipment inherited from the Yugoslav government.
Than you for this. It has been disappointing and heart breaking some of the leftist takes on Ukraine.
Damn tankies being hella cringe. Making us look like we’re pro Russia.
You're a liberal. No sense in getting angry at people that don't represent you
Orwell already covered this in his writings 'Notes on nationalism' and published letters.
Pacifists are inherently pro-fascist. And many take the stance that pacifism only applies to the US and UK. That the Soviet Union and others are justified in taking military action even in non-defensive ways
Because they're afraid to be branded "LIB". Them's fightin words.
Let's not forget that Bašar al-Assad is an ally of Putin so Russia Today (RT) spreads propaganda that says he's awesome. Kyle Kulinski has fallen for this among other "journalists".
@@donovan4222 Rich coming from you
@@donovan4222 oh, where's your pseudo intelectual bs now? Did that comment made you shit your pants that hard that you can't find an answer?
Whats so wrong in wanting to own ur own oil and keep ur central bank state owned?
Kulinsky is stupidly naive or a grifter, I wonder which is worse...
@@pse2020 He just wants to remain in power, those things are just side effects. I wouldn't barrel bomb cities because of a freaking bank.
Wow. Great to hear Lebanese voice on this topic. Thanks for the support. Cheers from Kyiv!
On a topic of the left jerking off any anti-american personalities: Lately I get the feeling that Americans are not unique in their sort of self-centred read of the world. It's basically what you guys read, hear, and talk about - America, and American problems. So it would be only natural to include this knowledge when facing new information. Honestly, I do exactly the same: When faced with the story of Sudanese war I instantly started searching for the Russian trace. Because that is exactly what Russia did here in Ukraine, Georgia (Sakartvelo), Moldova - they funded the growth of the pro-russian or even ethnically russian politicians and military officers, and used them for the internal sabotage of said countries, when their political goals became unaligned with kremlin.
But that said, it would be very easy for me to create conspiracies in my head about some key russian influence on a conflict I know nothing about.
Yeah, so basically that's for you a pitch for a self-skepticism method of analysis. =)
What is more leftist than a union of countries coming together to help stand up to a bully!
I'm Canadian which puts me automatically to the left of most Americans but I've never had any patience with knee-jerk anti-Americanism. With all its faults and whatever its past sins American power properly applied is and will be for the foreseeable future, the keystone of any hope for a rules-based order.
Did you know there is a number of people who say the idea of a "rules based international order" is just another name for American imperialism
@@noelwallinuppsala actually it is a defined term in US foreign policy. It is based on the ideas of free trade, national sovereignty (aka the idea that what happens in a nation should be decided by its people), and the idea that borders should not be changed through armed conflict. Do these things serve US interests? Yes but that in not the same as it being an arm of us imperialism.
I really think that if someone is anti-war they should also be pro global empire/hegemony. After all conflict between nations is inevitable. However if the conflicting nations have a mutually agreed framework or authority for resolving their disputes an armed conflict can usually be prevented.
The US could certainly do much better as far as promoting peace. You can't really deny that the countries that have embraced American Hegemony don't go to war with each other though.
A not-insignificant proportion of the anti-war rally recently in DC had Russia flags, there seemed some kind of overlap between anti-war people and anti-Ukraine people. There were definitely people who were in one camp or the other but some that seemed to flit between both groups depending if the message was going too far in either direction, so there did seem to be some confusion there
@@donovan4222 Godwin's Law is still in effect I see.
The world has actually been remarkably peaceful since the end of WWII. That's always a shocking claim to the woefully ignorant, but statistically undeniable.
@queerdo I said wars are less likely under the empire. Did you think conflict and war are synonyms?
Your logic is fallacious by the way. Something being inevitable under one paradigm doesn't mean it would be avoidable under a different paradigm.
@queerdo So you're just completely incompetent when discussing logic then. I'll assume you meant A (empire) implies B (war). Not what I claimed, and you've provided no counterargument. We can discuss the logic further though.
A => B does not mean !A => !B. This is called denying the antecedent. If you assume empires cause wars it does not logically follow that lack of empires would cause peace.
My claim is that lack of a mediator for conflicts is what causes war. An empire or hegemon could provide that for its subjects, as evidenced by Western hegemony's consistent peacefulness between its members. I reason that if the world didn't have other competing hegemonies or unaligned nations most wars could be avoided.
I'd think self-described anti-war anti-imperialist Vaush would disagree, so I don't know why you'd call me a vaushite.
@@VitalVampyr So, you want the New World Order? Because that's what you're describing.
beginner tankies: supporting authoritarian anti-American far-left regimes
leveled-up tankies: supporting authoritarian anti-American far-RIGHT regimes **laser eyes**
The analogy I always like to use is that we're all on a boat, and right now that boat is listing really, really far to Starboard, AKA right for those of us not nautically inclined. Now obviously the solution to this is to tilt the boat to Port (left), and the people who want to tilt the boat even more to the right are fucking insane. But just because tilting the boat to the left is a good thing now, it doesn't mean we should tilt the boat so far over that now we're listing heavily to the left. Because at the end of the day, we can't afford to let the boat capsize, because if it does than no matter what way we want to tilt the boat, we're all gonna end up in the water and wash up on an island with some asshole full of coconuts.
What would be the coconut man’s method of distributing coconuts?
And always make sure to place your boats lantern square and level- an enlightened centrist, if you will.
“Why are leftists takes on Russia and Ukraine SO AWFUL?”
I don’t know, maybe telling them that communism is good and that the Soviet Union did nothing wrong, the Uyghurs have nothing to worry about and North Korea is a truly democratic society might have something to do with it.
America bad, ummkay?
This is very American-centric. Let's add a view from Europe. Our left-wing radicals and communists are supporting Russia directly (because of former ties to the Soviet Union) or indirectly (by trying to stop military aid to Ukraine). Our social democratic parties are usually against Putin, but they obviously dislike the increased military spending this whole situation brings. Our centrist and center-right parties are basically supporting Ukraine. And the more to the right you go, the more the response is split. Conservative parties are supporting Ukraine against Putin. And the xenophobic ones (you know the ones I am talking about, immigration bad, EU bad, UN bad, US bad, believing in all sorts of conspiracies) are supporting Putin (openly praising him) or at least they want to spin the whole situation into isolationism (We have our people home; we don't have to help anyone, which in this case also helps Putin against Ukraine). This situation is actually a rare case in which left wing radicals and right wing radicals support the same thing, Putin.
Thanos is more nuanced than Putin who is literally a bond villain and people somehow still sympathizes for Putin. 🤦
I also think its the trauma of the post-9/11 wars. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen. Many of these conflicts went belly side up. Wasting money, lives, but also credit...war credit if you will. When the authortarian outsider countries start pushing at the gate. People rather just fold and mind their own business this side of the ocean. America has always been like this though. Both World Wars, the public were not supportive of those conflicts until the outsider came knocking on Americas door. Its a cycle.
Hearing an American accent actually sound sensible is just surreal at this point.
The USSR delayed our global socialist revolution by a century... thanks Lenin.
Russia literally had a democratically elected socialist government that Lenin couped cause the Bolsheviks lost
Хочу вас поправить, не "социалистическую" а "капиталистическую"
@@donovan4222 well guess not for you, with that attitude looooool
Off to the gulags you go 🤣
@@donovan4222 Америка никогда не была социалистической
Uhh, you're welcome?
High quality guest, Vaush
As someone who studies post soviet conflicts on the side its quite abhorent to the extent imperialism and colonialism is brushed under the rug.
There is a problem with the hard left and hard right. There are both working against the middle. When the hard left and hard right meet (give Russia what it wants) then there is a problem. Those positions should not be the same which means they are broken. Normal people support Ukraine. Normal Russians didn't want and don't understand the war.
I have found that people who support Russia (who are not Russian) tend to have psychological issues.
The US should really get things made now that a rebuilding Ukraine will require and find desireable. If I were President I'd also beef up all the businesses with a monolith and centered manufacturing initiative that would directly benefit the GDP and/or government.
If the left can just divest ourselves of Tankies and Puritanical Wokescolds, we might actually get somewhere for once.
Then the left won't have anyone willing to do any of the fighting during the revolution.
Wokeism is liberalism to the core. There's nothing woke about being a lefty class reductionist communist and they outright admit that they hate woke culture bcos they are fascists in disguise.
Seeing as the right don't get to divest themselves of fascists and such, I don't think the left should be able to divest themselves of Tankies.
@@ShadowFalcon what a weird way to frame something in hard pragmatics, that was stated in obvious whimsy.
@@davidcauley9400
Eh sorry.
Sarcasm meter appears to be on the fritz.
Sorry mate.
Here's my oversimplified take on the 2020s version of Chompsky:
I think Chompsky's swing towards a "Realpolitik" angle comes from living so long in this world, he's become jaded and I am at a loss as to why anyone is surprised. He's in his 90s. We can't pretend that age isn't a factor here, and even the most trained and disciplined mind will probably want to find the path of least resistance, and when war is the subject, the path of least resistance is giving in to the demands of the aggressor.
His entire section on Syria from 25:00 - ish onwards mirrors the disillusionment I felt during that conflict too. I certainly don't think of myself as a "leftist" in the way I used to, especially since Ukraine.
I am a social democrat because I don't think that socialists and "socialists" are really ready to implement their ideas. The fact that so many support openly fascist policies because they are anti liberal is a huge red flag.
Yeah I'm a tankie
*US ABRAMS TANK ROLLS IN*
American leftists* maybe some brits
Nah, in Belgium too sadly.
@@deprivedfashionista8092 what a shame
Might take some flak for this, but most third-world leftists as well
I agree with this. Most Leftists dislike Putin and are just anti-involvement in the war here in Germany.
It’s western leftist. You see a lot in Britain (up to Jeremy Corbyn) and a lot in Central Europe. I know that Germanys biggest communist paper is weirdly pro Russia as well
This was such a good talk. I hope it gets more views.
Fantastic conversation that sums up my attitude shift towards the Western left over the past couple of years. So many people I held in high esteem were extremely disappointing. Chris Hedges had no problem calling out Serbs as genocidal maniacs back in the day. Now he quotes Henry frigging Kissinger to justify Russian appeasement and spreads undiluted Russian propaganda on Donbass. Spectacular fall from grace.
Very good convo thanks for uploading
I really appreciate you doing this, Vaush.
Love to Oz -- I was following his tweets from Kyiv avidly during the early days of the invasion.
great talk would love to see more content like this from vaush
I agree with almost everything, I disagree with one thing - I understand both Vaush's standpoint but also the standpoint of the "tankies" (I am still against Putin and Russian invasion of Ukraine however, even if it was provoked by NATO and the West, Ukraine has the right to defend itself, as Russia killing innocent citizens is clearly the aggressor). The tankies are not Vaush's stereotype of "queer westerner socialists" - I am a queer, young, possibly-western (from Central-to-Eastern Europe), socialist. I don't hate democracy because "it's edgy", I hate it because it took my trans rights (politics and politics in Slovakia, Americans won't probably understand - shortly, I just dislike that democracy is the dictatorship of the majority, and if the majority is transphobic, than so be it - so I'm more of a direct-democracy, rigid constitution with human rights, libertarian/anarchist kind of socialist).
American "tankies" are not the same as Slovak tankies, as the material conditions are not the same - and quite frankly, I would rather be with the softer American "tankies", rather than with Eastern-European tankies that are pro-Putin, pro-Wagner, etc... Those are the true tankies that try to look like "socialists", but are actually more like fascists (they are patriotic to even nationalistic, they are against American imperialism but not against Russian imperialism, they like Trump which is ironic, they are homophobic, xenophobic and sexist, etc, etc...)
So Vaush talking about these "tankies" (calling SecondThought or Hakim or any moreof a direct-action-type of socialist rather than partisan socialist a "tankie"), is not only counterproductive (against unifying the left), but also makes him look like a lib, and is just totally insensitive against the true tankies here in Slovakia and Eastern Europe...
Vaush based
Gorbie approved 👍
@@SirKemzyGodle indeed
bababooey
We absolutely need more voices like Oz who are willing to call out these kind of problems with the left. There are good causes and points to be had on both sides of the aisle, but as these comically extremist viewpoints become normalized, it only detracts from those good points. Very few voices seem willing to go after the lunacy and extremism on their own side. The political landscape has become more tribalist than ever, and I refuse to take part in it. I don't think I can be the only one who feels this way.
I like Hasan, I generally agree with a lot of his takes mainly because I already had similar takes, but his takes on the war and the idea that Crimea belongs to Russia before Ukraine is just so bad. Still love Hasan, his content is like leftist fast food.
Great conversation, just spoke my mind
Do Americans not know what forging aid is ? It's the u.s government giving a discount on weapons manufactured in America. They are just skiping there own margins. Ukrainian is still paying for the weapons and thet money still is going to the government via taxes ...it's just not quite the amount of money the u.s government would get had they sold the weapons in full price
The US has this peculiar aid policy that is designed to create interdependence. The idea is they will send over aid packages of just money, with the caveat that a large part of that money has to be spent on American products. This aid money gets reinvested into the local economy/industry, forging connections between local and American companies. Thus, these nations become dependent on their relationship with the US to at least some degree, and America also benefits from local innovation.
I'm not sure I'd call journalism dead when Associated Press continues to be reliable for American news, was the bit at 39:05 about foreign news sources like BBC forcing 'equal platforms' or something along those lines? Is it referring to eastern European news sources specifically? There's a lot to criticize about modern journalism, but I hesitate to say it's in its death throes. The best I can figure is that Vaush is referring to being about local newspapers lacking funding, which I'd definitely love to see funded as much as war journalism.
Edit: I think 57 minutes in gave me my answer well enough, I definitely wish liberals were more willing to directly call far right actions fascist.
i think in my humble opinion, for communism, democracy is a necessity rather than an option. Otherwise, it's just a synonym for tyranny. E.g the level of concentrated power, exclusivism, and elitist vanguard party demanded by Lenni-Bolshevik style communist rule often becomes a hotbed for corruption, subversion, and eventual fascism; Just think about it, all those Lenni-Bolshevik communist dominions never work, and each carries their own signature dictators and their respective hefty loads of atrocities.
Because of this Lenni-Bolshevik style communism, i still have to live in fear.
I find it bizarre that people who are (rightly) anti-imperialism, supporting imperialism.
The SovietUnion. The end
Basically every problem with the left can be tied back to those guys
Love from a Xanderhal and DylanBurns fan!
I really do think it boils down to American exceptionalism but in terms of it being the ultimate big bad. That and the most vocal (online) people that hold this position are almost always fringe minorities whose only friends are other tankies. When the only support system you have is these guys you’re gonna do all you can to keep them happy with you. Every time you see these guys it’s either vatniks or some mentally ill lonely person and that’s the community that accepted them.
So i guess, every leak julian assange and edward snowden realeased, + the new leak that just happended should be ignored right? Americans need to take back america. the shit it does to other nations is horrific.
@donovan4222 Russia is great country and definitely should conquer Ukraine! America Bad!
@@donovan4222 American diabolism, as it was called in this video, is another form of exceptionalism. Both of them see America as the natural center of gravity of the world.
@@donnievance1942 eh, American diabolism and American exceptionalism aren’t the same thing, they are 2 products of the same core issue, thinking america is the only important thing on the planet
American media is occasionally very restrictive of anything a non-American might do better. During the recent Olympics, one British/international news outlet clearly showed two acrobats preforming one after the other. However, the American outlet (CNN?) Zoomed in on the American contestant waiting for her turn, only to pan out when she's up. Completely hiding the last contestants' performance. This can leave an audience with two conclusions: America produces the best outputs that none can compare, or, America is so bad at what it does that it must hide what other countries can do.
Being someone in West Asia. It's probably inconceivable to an American how American media is overarching. From movies, news and music alone, we learn a lot more about Americans than they can learn about us. With the exception of Japanese and Mexican media. Americans aren't exposed to the world. Thus their politics about other countires are about as limited as what national news outlets would want to say.
Americans barely want to watch the Olympics. Watching non American contestants is definitely a ratings killer for the tv stations. That is all.
Tbh I think this is a problem for people in really 'big' countries in general, not just the US (though it's especially bad there, and more visible given the general prevalence of US media). Russians, Chinese, and Indians are just as clueless and ignorant about the outside world for the most part.
When I finished highschool I had to decide between using my knowledge of building "pyrotechnics" out of farm supplies and trying to accelerate a downfall to save the planet or learning engineering and slowly creating an technology base that makes the old system superfluous.
Woah settle down there Timothy McVeigh... Major "im the joker, Batman" vibes
I don't get leftist, liberal, etc as far as fitting yourself in a box
Why not take data as it comes and reason / rationalize what you think is right, regardless of where it will make you lean.
Oppossing correct views can exist in tandem. Gray is generally the true color, rather than black and white, in my experience.
This guy has some good takes but I don't think that you have to be a centre left social democrat to make them (his takes on supporting revolution whether or not it's good is a bit whack but point taken). Vaush is right, a third camp position is not only compatible, but is essential to contemporary revolutionary socialist thought. Otherwise youre just a fascist masquerading as a lefty "ML".
Western/American diabolism is a curse, a broken clock shows the time right twice a day, as does Western foreign policy smh.
Neither Washington nor Moscow but the international working class!
This definitely made it hard to listen to his criticism and made some of it a lot weaker by being so strongly black and white, on what is something the average American is just disinterested because it’s 6000 miles away in a country they can’t find on a map. While himself spending the first 20 mins saying they are too black and white but just on the wrong side. Maybe they aren’t saying “Just give the Donbas” and that could be why they “won’t just say it” and arguing with the actual arguments. For how many times he said Hasan the actual shitty arguments said aren’t brought up. It’s an easy dunk why strawman when you have a point. It felt like a circlejerk often.
Just gonna call this out about Manufacturing Consent. I am just finishing it and Chomsky takes so much time repeating himself over and over again. Still an okay book, with a good messages to internalize, but so much repeating.
As a Lebanese I am proud of Oz!!
In my view, the fundamental issue is that many people cannot understand that there is a limited pool of feasible actions or outcomes existing which can be meaningfully differentiated. The truth is that there isn't always a better way and inaction is an action that comes with its own sets of consequences. Sometimes, maintaining a theoretical ideal may sacrifice that very ideal in practice.
A closely-related issue is people who want to view everything in black-and-white terms.
I am honestly kind of confused. What leftists are we talking about? Maybe I just don't know any tankies?... I am pretty sure every leftist I know is pretty in agreement that no country should be invading any other country and if they do they shouldn't keep the land that results from that invasion.
We are not pure intellect, we are emotion,
With the competitive nature of society, limited space and resources, pressure to succeed by peers and care givers, leads to Neuroticism, which is the trait disposition to experience negative affects, including anger, anxiety, self‐consciousness, irritability, emotional instability, paranoia and depression.
Is it any wonder we are all confused, on drugs, mentally Ill, desperate for order out of chaos,
Unfortunately people are desperate and reach for populist, than they accept ever more authoritarian policies.
I!HO, a degree of emotional intelligence is just as important as Cognitive intelligence.
Only with both is wisdom possible..
@Donovan If you see a man being mugged on the street and do nothing to help him... then you are in fact helping the mugger.
@Donovan Thank you for immediately proving me right.
No, we are not using Ukraine. What we are doing is giving them the aid that They 1st asked us for because They want to defend Their country from an invasion by the authoritarian imperialist superpower.
@@donovan4222 utter bullcrap Russia started this because the Ukrainian people didn't want to be a puppet of russia the US had no say in the matter
What leftists? Let's see, Hasan, Kyle Kulinsky, Noam Chomsky, Richard Wolff, Jeremy Corbyn, numerous DSA chapters...
Plenty of leftists think that countries deserve to be invaded because they lean West.
Russian regime has changed from what it was couple years ago. Ukraine is a territory the regime uses to escalate tensions against West. This escalation will continue all the way till the very end unless regime gets what it wants or external force ties their hands.
All it takes to disprove Chomsky’s take is to accept that this is a war between nato and Ukraine, it’s not, and then make the argument that NATO is bad sure but it’s just way better than Russia, so NATO should win because no matter what the result is, Russia will not stop if it doesn’t lose.
You mean it's a war between NATO and Russia, right? As far as who is "way better", such infantile arguments would not sway Chomsky, nor do they address his critiques of US foreign policy in the first place. The very suggestion underlies a fundamental misunderstanding of his position.
By this logic you could justify virtually any US foreign policy in at least last 20 years and likely even longer. Sure George W Bush was bad, but he is way better than Saddam was, right? Why not argue for direct confrontation between US and Russia on that basis? After all, Biden is way better than Putin, is he not?
@@the-gadfly4743Ukraine? What is that? Who cares! US and NATO bad!
Really good exchange.
Because horseshoe theory is real.
In theory it's not. But in reality, it is.
@Miguel Garay
Well, you could kinda make a "double Horseshoe".
Where one set of prongs, represents the likeness between authoritarians, and the other set of prongs represent the utopian wishfulness of the libertarians.
Sure, the political theory of the prongs don't agree, but the whole idea of the horseshoe was that, theory doesn't exactly matter, when you're confronted with the reality that from the inside there isn't much difference between a gulag cell, and a KZ camp barrack.
@@miguelgaray4276 I'd argue that if you put it on a Cartesian plane, the actual shape would be more like an upside-down McDonald's logo
"Liberal Democracy wasnt built to withstand forces that attack from within!" thats not true, just look at Germany however you have to create these safeguards and maintain them properly. Their experience with a fascist dictatorship which took power from a LD taught them how to protect themselves! Its the older democracies which suffer from this creational flaw.
These guys make horseshoe theory plausible
I mean, it's why I still use "horseshoe theory" as a kinda yardstick to kinda predict the plausible outcomes of the extreme wings.
It's not to understand political theory, but merely the observation that, there isn't that many differences between authoritarians. A gulag, and a KZ camp look very similar from the inside.
I heard the same mechanism be described as "the authoritarian black hole" somewhere else.
Feudal Europe could be described as a multipolar world and we don’t want to go back to that.
Don't even need to go that far back; look at Europe in 1914.
Definitely main channel content
Great conversation
peepeepoopoo