Already I’ve read a few comments that have helped shift my perspective of Edgerunners. The take away I’m getting is that I seem to have falsely classified it as a revenge plot when it kind of isn’t one. Viewing it through that lens seems to be the reason I didn’t enjoy it all that much. I’m not going to take back anything I said in the video because that was my genuine interpretation of it. But that’s the beauty of the internet. Gaining a new perspective. Also, just in case this isn't clear, here's what the title is meant to mean. Revenge and anger aren't selling points to me, so revenge stories have to give me more than that in order to get me invested. I'm not angry enough of a person to get invested in a story from that alone. Anyways, thanks for all the support
here i was typing out a long asss comment about how edgerunners isn't a revenge story(loved it btw). i also do agree with your opinion on the main character but he's already hard for me to relate to since my both my parents are still alive and i dont live in a crime/ gang infested city.
@@AllhoursYOUMINbias He didnt say he had a negative experience with it. He publicly posted a video that has comments for people to express their opinion. If he didnt want a discussion he would have disabled comments or not replied at all. Calling it harassment is a bit far.
@cheryl kwon and I'm saying after 1000 times it's still not harassment and would be dumb to call it that. Most of the comments aren't being rude about it.
I felt that Edgerunners was much more a story about David being unable to cope with the tragedy in his life and using modifications as a coping mechanism instead. So it's not that David doesn't have emotions, it's that he doesn't process them well, until the last episode.
The latter half of edge runners was literally a love story with most of the motivations coming from a desire to self-sacrifice for the ones you love. Overall however it was very clearly a Shakespearean tragedy (as a genre). The whole point was getting you attached to David and then watching his life fall apart in spectacular fashion.
Yeah I got the vibe he wanted something current for the thumbnail, didn't know what to put and chose something that fits if you squint while doing a hand stand.
What makes Berserk work in my opinion is that while the idea that Guts wants revenge on Griffith is constant, it’s very rarely the main motivator behind what Guts does moment to moment. It’s an overarching goal, but Guts acknowldges, at least eventually, that some things are more important, and he finds purpose with his RPG party outside of killing Griffith.
Exactly! The Golden Age shows us the events that are still festering in the back of Guts' mind, but he continues moving forward both mentally and physically despite the earth shattering levels of trauma
@@JustTobyK I never saw cyberpunk as a revenge story and I think your enjoyment may have hinged on that. I came into it as a coming-of-age story because for most of the show he really wasn't angry at anyone . maybe the system, but you can't really be angry at a entire society made of people and he already got revenge on his bully. the stories in part about overbearing systems and David basically becoming a criminal king pin /a legend. The anger seems less of "I want revenge" any more I'm a teenage boy were trying to find my way in the world are feeling most guys know where you're not angry at anyone in particular With no one to regulate him because he has no parents. Cyberpunk isn't about rationality and really non of the actions would've changed with David taking a step back because it's just Davids character, his decisions, are really not led by anger but more by him just being a dumb kid. You may just don't resonate with coming-of-age stories, but I resonate with stories, like cyberpunk edge runners , FLCL and Yu Yu hakusho the stories, don't hanker on anger, but the development and mindset of the main character growing. Personally, I did not like attack on Titan, because I could not care less about the revenge plot because I did not care about Erin's and his change from hero to villain wasn't interesting to me.
@@sugartoothYT I can understand where he's coming from. Tbf being a global phenomenon doesn't mean everyone will like it though. I started losing interest in AoT ever since the truth of the world was revealed. I had theorized that Eren would die in the finale but the way his story was handled from the Marley arc onwards, and that finale, turned many people away.
id hardly call edgerunners a revenge story as revenge isnt even the main aspect of it, its a tragedy about davids failure to protect the ones he cares about, not about taking down arasaka or big corporate. so maybe you didnt like it because you were looking at it in the wrong light
I did finish it! My interpretation was that David wanted revenge against the world in general for stripping away his loved ones unfairly and the corporations that helped make the world what it is.
@@JustTobyK I will admit that is something he definitely felt, and the cause of his rebellious nature. But not something that was the main focus of the show. I felt the show was more about cycles of hatred. One bad act causes another one. It's similar to revenge. But without a clear objective
@@JustTobyK David never had revenge as his main motive, he stays in school to protect his mom and when his mom dies he gets depressed not vengeful or hateful, even when joining the edgerunners he doesn't do it to get revenge he does it for the money. When Pilar dies he gets revenge on that one cyber psycho but nobody else and he kills the psycho to protect Lucy as the main motive, not avenging pilar. When Maine dies he doesn't go back to get revenge, he goes back to doing jobs that have nothing to do with the downfall of arasaka. Etc etc he never goes out to get revenge, he goes out to protect his loved ones and does jobs not for revenge but to support himself and his loved ones
@@JustTobyK David does not want revenge against the world. He does not come off as an angry person. David is actually a sacrificial person. He's willing to sacrifice himself for his mother's expectation for his life, then hes willing to sacrifice himself for mane and his cause. And ultimately he's willing to sacrifice himself for Lucy's dream. If David felt like he had another way to a better life he would have done things differently. David attached himself to the cyberpunk lifestyle because in his eyes that was the one way to be free and that was the only thing he felt like he could a succeed in. Especially in a world where he knew the system was rigged against him. David was over confident and believed he was special he pushed himself to the brink thinking he could pull himself back.
It's not even just what he did to Casca, it's that he sacrificed the Band of the Hawk entirely. These were people who were loyal to him and considered him a dear friend, but he doesn't care at all. It shows how little he really cared about people who loved him, because he only ever saw them as a means to an end and that if leading them all to their deaths was all he had to do to achieve his ambition, he'd do so happily and then some. He didn't just callously sacrifice those who loved him, he reveled in the pain and despair he caused. If that doesn't spark rage, I don't know what can.
@@mindmaster323 Honestly after both watching the Golden Age anime adaptations and reading the manga... I understand and feel the rage that Guts' has and I fucking hope he get's to kill Griffith
The thing most people miss or forget about Cyberpunk is that the main villain isn’t a person, but Night City itself. NC forces the people who live there to abandon parts of their humanity for the sake of survival and that’s the root cause of the show’s problems
@@MIRAK-EL Sort of, yeah. The Culture influences the individual. When people are atomized and isolated from each other socially, they don’t cooperate unless they have clearly defined material benefits from doing so.
I would see it as, corporations, rather than night city, personally. Night City represents the people, like David and his crew, or the middle men that get betrayed by arasaka anyway. The city is meant to be something that can always be fluid, that can get eaten by corporations, or may not have to.
Calling Oshi No Ko a revenge story is like calling it an idol story. It's not necessarily wrong, but it's also not the central focus of the story either. Oshi No Ko is very unique in the fact that it doesn't really have a genre or focus point. The manga switches from rom-com, to revenge story, to battle shonen, to idol story, to murder mystery every few chapters, and it's done so effortlessly and flawlessly that it's genuinely incredible.
I wanna describe it as an insight example story where it doesn't focus on one genre that revolves around a feeling but more on unfolding the dark truth in the entertainment industry
Its literally a revenge story with many sidequests, dude. I like oshi no ko as well but dont pretend its not a revenge story. Every arc always finds a way to remind aqua for his revenge, even if the purpose was comedic.
You've just missed the entire point of the OP lol. Dumbing it down to a "revenge story with many sidequests" also hurts the experience and comes off as having a shallow analysis on what type of story the author is conveying. To me, it's more of a tragedy than a revenge story considering there's tons of commentary regarding the cutthroat and cold nature of the showbiz industry and how in turn these can affect the outlooks of the people involved from the actors to the idols. Ai's murder just so happens to be one of those events that happens ever so often in that industry and we're just going along for the ride of someone who's dealing with its aftermath. Revenge is part of the story, not the main course, it only looks that way because we're seeing the entire journey through someone who's seriously not coping well with what happened (with understandable reasons too).
@@pisaschitt787 the revenge story is literally just a plot device for MC's motivation, but the whole point of Oshi no Ko is to show us the dark side of the entertainment industies, which are the main theme of what Oshi no ko tries to convey to its audiences, not the revenge story itself. I mean, you're technically not wrong to call it a revenge story since it's the main catalyst, but to brand other things as simply "side quest" isn't right either
I think the reason why Aqua has a really good revenge motivation is very subtle. It's that the entire time Aqua was someone who had the potential to be that revenge fueled sociopath disguised in what seems to be a normally functioning human being. He's very isolationist, he has a fixation over his mother that should not be normal for a kid, he is very intelligent and uses it to his advantage, he subtly tricks and manipulates the people around him when it's to benefit himself or Ai, even before Ai's death there were these seemingly throw away hints that we didn't even realize were red flags all along. It was just the death of his mother that made what seemed to be someone normally functioning human on the surface spiral into the monster that he always had the potential to be. And what makes it even more insane is that to the viewer Aqua was normal but those small cracks in the character became fissures and it just made sense.
I think his bigger revenge motivation is because he's already been killed by someone who was influenced by the father/mastermind. He thinks it boils down to the same person who killed him and his mother so he needed to stop the father and know his ulterior motivation before it happens again
Aqua doesnt know this but he literally acts like an obsessive fan except this time she is literally related to the idol that was murdered and saw all of it first hand. If he wasnt a reincarnation he might be doing revenge for the sake of her mother, instead of thinking of her as an idol and nothing more
If I'm being honest, one thing in surprised/kinda disappointed you didn't really touch upon was the difference in antagonists between Cyberpunk and the other media and I think it kinda paints a better picture of what the story was going for. Every example except Cyberpunk paints a clear target for revenge Guts is Griffith Aqua is the killer (I think so I haven't watched the anime discussed) Hell even Eren has that in the formcof Marley/the rest of the world (normally wouldn't be a viable "antagonist" but Eren gets the power to destroy the world) Cyberpunk doesn't have that, or at the very least I think discussing Faraday and Adam smasher in the context of a revenge plot is faulty. The circumstances behind the death of David's mother were entirely systematic and random. They were caught in the crossfire of a surprise gang fight and when the trauma team came down they COULD have helped David's mom but decided not to because she wasn't a paying member. In this instance those gang members were just doing what gang members do and the trauma team were arguably doing their jobs. What Night City perpetuates is a cycle of violence which gets innocent people caught up in it. That's something that David realizes when he shoots the Ankara employee who reminds him of his mother. I think the big difference that really should've been mentioned is the big difference in power that David has compared to his target of "revenge". Sure Faraday is an antagonist but David never seeks vengeance after him (I don't count the ending since he was trying to get Lucy back, which by that logic Mario is getting revenge on Bowser) and by the time Adam Smasher comes into the story, David doesn't care. When Adam is directly in his face asking him to focus on the fight, David ignores him to try and save Lucy. The difference is that David can't exactly make a difference. There's no bad guy he can just punch and make Night City suddenly be better. The Trauma team still operates the same way no matter how many members he and his gang kill. Hell it's shown off right after the death. He deals with money issues as he now must sneak into the apartment due to rent being past due, the cremation was the cheapest option, his mother didn't have good Healthcare, he couldn't properly wash his clothes, etc etc. The main reason I disagree with the idea of Cyberpunk being primarily about revenge or even that David really works in this comparison is that the focus was moreso on how David was going to live on both mentally, physically and logistically after his mother's death rather than who/what he needs revenge on. After he has his rematch with the one bully who beat him, he's kind of just done revenge-plot wise. To me, him joining the edgerunners felt moreso about finding sustainability and purpose in life after he lost it.
I really appreciate this comment. This helps me see the whole series in a different light. From the get-go, I interpreted the series as a revenge plot. I saw it as David blaming the corporations for how messed up Night City is and wanting to get revenge on the evil CEOs that essentially took his mother from him.
I was gonna say when I came into this video I was like, "wait cyberpunk was a revenge story? I missed that." Well I suppose cyberpunk could be interpreted as a revenge plot but even then it'd be one with no target for revenge. Even Faraday and Adam, as antagonistic as they are, are just other cogs in the machine of the unfair world of cyberpunk. Even when faraday dies, no one cares because he doesn't matter. He's just another cog in the machine. I agree with a lot of the points you made
@GomuGomuNoToby Yeah I think the best way to put it is that with Cyberpunk the true antagonist is Night City. Everything that happened to David is just par for the course of Night City. David isn't really going out of his way to do anything but live and constantly gets punished for it due to who he is. He's poor so the kids at his school pick on him mercilessly, he has a blessed body to the corporations want to lure him in and turn him into a mindless soldier. He tries to hide behind a layer of stoicism because you need that stoicism to survive Night City. Julio dies but it's par for the course and due to his own inexperience, if David got too emotional then he'd never get anything done. I think the point is showing how the extreme capitalist society of Night City turns people into machines the more they go on. Both physically and mentally
Aqua's motivation for revenge is not anger. He is motivated by regret, the regret of being a doctor and being unable to save Ai, the regret of not telling Ai about the stalker. SPOILERS!!! In later chapters we can see how Aqua actually wants the whole revenge thing to be over, he believe Himekawa (his half brother) when he tells him that his father is already dead without even questioning if that person is really his father, we see through his PTSD episodes that he is motivated by the regret of being unable to save Ai even though he had the memories of his past life as a doctor, he is haunted by his past life and by his inability at that moment. Aqua in reality just wants everything to be over, he is motivated by regret (Spoiler: Unlike Ruby who is motivated by pure anger) (Sorry for my bad English)
I also read another comment that is why Aqua is way more into revenge than Ruby. As a doctor, he can't save his patient. As a fan, he can't save his idol. As a son, he can't save his mother.
Attack on Titan may have started as a revenge story but now?.... It's not just about revenge anymore. The actions of current Eren are not driven by anger or revenge. They are driven by his desperation to protect the people he cares about.
Most of all revenge stories does become like that slowly it makes you question is revenge even worth would that make everything right how much it would be satisfying and how much it won't be, Attack on titan does portray those emotions brilliantly.
I dont watch the anime and its been a while since ive read it, but isnt saying his motivations spoilers. You find that out at the end and was suppose to be some big reveal.
I feel that Berserk, as is Vinland Saga , is a story about overcoming anger. Trought the story we see Guts being affected by the Eclipse, see him consumed by his anger, see the things the anger makes him do, like almost AHEM AHEM-ing Casca and before that leaving her alone at the mountain instead of staying with her. By the time we get to chp 269 it seems that hes almost forgotten that anger, but then 270-271 happens and well....yea "overcoming anger isnt as simple as runing from it" is the lesson i feel Guts is on his way to learn
Eren is also overcoming his anger, it becomes sadness, knowing he's the reason for everything happening and unsure of what to do. Hence where the "I just keep moving forward" marks it as the most important line in the entire series. Eren's overcoming starts from the early stages of Season 3, and afterwards, he's a changed man.
Eren is actually still angry but his anger is shifted towards him and the world. Just like you said by knowing hes the reason all of this had happen he goes out of his way to fulfill his purpose.
Oshi no Ko is honestly much more focused on character studies/progression and showbiz than the revenge plot being the focus 24/7. It's still there, but mostly in the background, as Aqua is a very lowkey person who does long term plans.
Although Berserk makes us feel angry at times, it also tries to make us forget about revenge and seek journey to the other way, that is to heal Casca. Berserk doesn't want you to be angry all the time, it sincerly tries to make you overcome the anger that you felt. Leave the past behind, forget Griffith, turn away from those people who hurt you.
I never thought about Cyberpunk as a revenge anime. Just how the city and environment pushed people to survive, thus showcasing how David was pushed over the edge.
I would argue that edgerunners isn’t really a revenge story to begin with. The story is meant to convey the struggles of survival in an oppressive, dysfunctional future, where all one can do is resist while trying their hardest not to be consumed. (It has a secondary focus on morality, insanity, and all that jazz)
Well I do understand David’s response, people are different, Some people response to loss would be simply anger, had a friend who lost a parent , my guy was irritated, angry never wanted to share about his feelings , that’s just how people are, you are soft while others don’t want to remotely be that way
Kinda feel that the point of AoT and Edgeruners was out of point Edgeruners is more about survival and keep its individualism in a cruel city, was about a kid who lost his only family and had to survive finding a new one, and everyones dreams being fullfiled in a twisted way About AoT revenge is only part of the plot because the story starts in the middle. The "revenge" of the marleyans over the endians was due to Fear, and the only person that screams revenge is Eren. But in the big picture, everything was planed and executed by Eren to protect his kind, not for revenge. Hence many ppl agreed with his actions
To understand why Edgerunners was, how it was You'd first have to understand what the world of cyberpunk itself is supposed to be. And honestly, i would never put the story of David, or even the story of V as an revenge plot. Theres a lot more to those characters than just their hate for night city
Having read the manga so slight spoilers, I don’t get the sense that Oshi no ko is a revenge story. More like a tragedy. We see how Aqua’s search for revenge holds himself from happiness and corrupts those around him. We don’t want his father to go free because he’s an irredeemable monster once revealed, but it’s clear that Aqua is self-destructing to take him down and that is a tragedy.
As someone who read oshi no ko before the amazing 1 hour and a half episode dropped,. I didn't think it would be this loved by everyone, I had it in a slightly higher level than something like mashle and i have hells paradise over it, But the prologue in the anime was done so brilliantly, way better at hooking me in when i already knew the twist, The anime has such crazy colours which you obviously don't see in the manga
I dunno. I don't really share the opinion that you have to be angry to enjoy a revenge story. Good writing is good writing. I get everyone has their taste. I can hardly say i like berserk for example because it's a revenge story. It's a series that I love because despite the bleak and hopeless story of gut's life where he finds himself constantly in the worst situations even down to how he was born. Berserk is a story about people, living, moving forward despite the brunt of a harsh cruel world and the terrible situations they are given. Berserk is a story about hope ultimately. Guts may have started on a revenge path and he still definitely wants to cleave Griffith's head from his body. But there's so much more to it than that. Guts now has so many people that he fights for it's not just about getting revenge for the Falcon and Caska. And I think those moments of quiet with the cast of characters in less extreme situations highlights this. BERSERK isn't over as I write this but I don't believe the series is going end with guts ripping Griffith limb from limb and winning his revenge . I think like most of of berserks most poignant moments it'll end quiet. Probably sad. But hopeful. And I think personally the best revenge stories end with the character realizing revenge doesn't help and that they need to free themselves of it.
Is gonna sound harsh but if you think Cyberpunk is a revenge story fueled by rage you need to go back to literature class. It’s not about revenge, it’s about making a name for yourself in a place where everything is possible. David don’t want to burn the city literally but more to leave his mark and become a legend. And when there is old style punk revenge which I think isn’t the same, fundamentally cause it’s more about ideological revolution (which isn’t the theme it was going for) Also yeah, Cyberpunk story should be watched as a whole so you would be kept “on edge” IMHO.
Hi! Thank you for your comment, but I unfortunately have not attended a literature class. That may be the issue at hand here. While I understand now from the influx of comments that my interpretation of Cyberpunk Edgerunners is one that varies from the general public, it is how my human brain chose to interpret it. Even if the writer/s were to make an official statement saying that it isn’t a revenge story, it doesn’t change the fact that the human brain go brrrr. What I spoke in the video is just my personal interpretation. Thank you for your time and for clicking on my video :)
Revenge arc is not just about anger. Why it makes you angry? It is crucial to understand a character's want and need (a.k.a Monkey Paw problem). Revenge arc always involves losing something or someone (it doesn't need to be death, it can be symbolic), and that something/someone has profound connection to what the hero wants (usually not what the hero needs, but there may be exceptions, which depends on author's theme and goal for the story). The trigger of anger is depends on whether the hero resonates with you and you understand the significance of the something/someone that hero has lost; this isn't just about tears or how loud can the voice actor scream, although they definitely make your more emotional. Not sure why Cyberpunk was in the comparison cause it wasn't about revenge. IMO, It's more about characters' struggles to preserve humanity and bonds in a world that doesn't give shit about them.
In my opinion, the best revenge stories are never about revenge. Like you said, getting your audience to care about a revenge plot requires a lot of time spent on building characters, and that usually involves emotions that are a lot more compelling than the simple anger that is used to kickstart a revenge story. This leads to the story evolving into something much deeper than a typical revenge narrative. Both Berserk and Vinland Saga have a long winded prologue built to make you care about Guts/Thorfinn, but ultimately both become about a man finding his meaning and purpose in life, as well as opening up and trusting people. It's ironic the two best revenge stories in manga are directly antithetical to the concept of revenge. Revenge is just a means to an end, a plot device, and never the point of the actual story.
I disagree about your take that all revenge is meaningless in fiction. Sometimes it's the only thing that'll end the tormenter of the protagonist and/or the remorseless villain.
I think Edgerunners is a terrible revenge anime just because it isn't a revenge anime. The story is about David trying to find a reason to live, and his place in Night City. The death of his mother was tragic, but David never actually went out to find the killers of their mom. Her death was just to prove to David that no-names like himself got nothing that protects them.
Okay, you may not relate to David, but that doesn’t mean he’s a bad character. Even though I do not relate too much to him either, I have known quite a few people that are like him and react in a way I can find illogical, but I can understand how he acts. I just don’t think it’s fair for you to not like it because you don’t relate. Also the world of Cyberpunk is a literal Dystopia so yeah of course it’s got this bad world feeling to it. Sorry if this comes off as like aghh Cyberpunk fan blindly defending the show.
I never said David was a bad character or that I didn’t understand him. I didn’t like what I understood about him. Also not to be rude but I think it’s actually very fair to not like something for any reason. You could say that you don’t like my face and you don’t even have to HAVE a reason for that. David is objectively well written, but I did not subjectively like him
Don’t worry about Oshi no Ko having peaked in the first episode. Aqua is a fantastic protagonist and the story does a lot with character relationships outside of the revenge premise. The revenge acts more as a through line to guide the overall narrative rather than a moment by moment dictation of motivations
I read the Oshi no ko manga last week and I felt strangely emotionally invested in the story. I have tried to figure out why ever since, and one thing that actually confused me was why I felt drawn to the claim of taking revenge. I am also not much of an angry person although I know the feeling of being wronged and wishing for consequences or starting them off, and all the brute force approaches to seeking revenge seem unnatural to me. What I found for now is that what really dragged me along, so much that I read all night into the morning, was the "hidden in the shadows" aspect. Reading the situation, infiltration, manipulation. I am a manipulative piece of shit that keeps reading people like books from the sidelines and sometimes directs their actions or way of thinking based on what I learned about them, without them ever noticing. Mostly, it turned out in their favor, though, I did not use it to hurt them, but to push them toward their dreams and desires. And most of all, the reason I do this is because I can't handle anything directed at myself. If I control the play, I don't end up at the center of it if I don't want to. And all the people I fought with ended up leaving at some point, which I thought was a nice coincidence, but I think I made it happen. I did not lie nor tell anyone to do anything, but by the way I approached and talked to people, I made them act based on their own feelings. The way I deal with people who have hateful motivations is showing them sides of me they can relate to and then center their attention to something else that will make their hate turn into a neutral feeling. Which is also where I can relate to the acting parts of the story, as I am acting as that version of myself; someone who can make it happen. Also, the story heavily relates to a lot of issues that trauma can give to you, suddenly the whole world changes and the feeling of being on the edge can't go away no matter how normal or happy you might appear on the outside. The first anime episode/first 10 manga chapters showcase who the people are that we follow through the story, and what their intentions are. As someone manipulative, this is exactly what I am looking for in people. If there is someone I can't understand, I don't get involved with them. And usually, people I can speak to person to person tell me their backstories. And the only type of person I don't understand? It's mostly the angry people. Who try to set themself apart by being unlikeable and powerful and who ignore people that don't matter to them. Many action shows are like this, which is why I don't really follow this genre all too much despite the great shows out there. The desire for violence is something many people have inside of them, and revenge can just be a reason to let it out. Someone who does not have a desire for violence will not want to commit to it even if their loved one was killed in front of them. I have met some people with similar backstorys to common narratives, and they have been the furthest from your average revenge protagonist you could imagine. They had compassion, more than anyone else. Revenge was something they needed to be free, not something they had to force through at all cost. Some even felt compassion for those who wronged them, rather than anger.
What sold Eren's character in the manga was indeed his little realization (that didn't make it into anime) at the start : "Mom is dead! I can never see or hear her again!" with a panel of her taking care of him. And this is before getting how Eren keep remembering his mom whenever he's at his lowest and needed a bit of push
IMO, berserk is the only anime listed in this video that is a revenge story. Attack on titan. Is about a lot of things. Revenge is one of them. But survival, betrayal, and seeking truth takes way more story line up then revenge. I would say revenge is less then 5% of the storyline. BUT Edgerunners? I feel like u lost ur marbles with this one. David is never seeking revenge in the show. He is dealing with loss in a unfair world, in unhealthy ways. But he never is seeking revenge. He seeks romance, he seeks a better life, he seeks to make his loved ones happy and safe. But he never seeks revenge. I feel like you didn't even watch edge runners. It's hard for me to believe anyone could watch edgerunners and come to that conclusion. Maybe that's why you didn't like it. Because you saw the first ep and just figured it was a revenge story and didn't finish the ep 2. Lol sorry I hate to accuse you of doing that, but really. How did you come to that conclusion. Could you reply with ur reasoning on what actions david took that made you believe that ER was a revenge story?
You miss understood Eren's character. His motivation started out as revenge. But that stopped by the end of the 3rd season. By that time he is motivated by three things. Protecting his friends, protecting the island, Freedom. Eren let his revenge go.
David’s life wasn’t about revenge. It was about being remembered because in the end of the cyberpunk universe you want to be remembered no matter what that’s why some people chase to be a legend in that universe. And also being stronger, that’s why David packed himself with a lot of chrome
I think one difference could just be "experience with being screwed over by the system". David makes a lot of sense when framed as someone who has nothing to lose, who is suicidal, and who is hopeless, due to economic forces beyond his control. Even as a "badass" cyberpunk, he can't truly effect the change he wants to, and can only struggle until he dies (or at least, that is his viewpoint). Poverty generates that sort of hopelessness, as does to a lesser extent being screwed over forces outside your control. Oshi no Ko's tragedy is much more digestible because it's unjust no matter what the "system" is like. We get that somebody killing somebody else is really traumatizing without going through it, while being more...upset at the systems that control our lives and render us helpless is only really more understandable through having that experience.
see... I'm coming directly off of watching Vinland Saga, up to the point where it is now (episode 17) and to me, the white hot burning core of a revenge narrative, is actually pure love. love, and then grief. in order to tell a compelling revenge story, you have to craft a compelling tragedy. and in Vinland Saga, I think that is achieved gorgeously. I'm about to drop spoilers for Vinland Saga, so if you haven't seen it, I encourage you to do that before reading anything else I've typed. it's a really good story, it deserves your time and attention, I say this because I care, and I want as many people as possible to let it affect them on it's terms, the way the story intends. you would think that Vinland Saga begins with a death... but really, it begins with a life. Thors is a character who, in a very short amount of time, gives us a deep sense of his own identity and ideology. and that becomes the lynchpin to every other thing that happens in the story, because what Thors believes is the hardest possible thing to think in a world like this. Thors was a viking warrior. he fought, bloody and brutal, on the battlefield. this is the way that men in his culture are taught to be... it's how they measure their worth, and Thors was legendarily the most proficient at it. but very early on in the story, when we see him as this heartbreakingly gentle village leader and father, he says something to his young son that belies the true purpose of the entire narrative. "you don't have enemies. nobody has enemies." at first, it seems like a flowery yet impossible sentiment... and Thors tells this to six year old Thorfinn, his son who clearly isn't old enough to understand it, and then is killed before he has the chance to elaborate. and from that point forward, everything else in the story is set up to show how hard it is to think that these words are true. and then, to say it anyway. this perspective is simultaneously the most difficult conclusion to arrive at, the most challenging to maintain, and the most satisfying to see validated, all at once. and as the various conflicts and trials of the narrative move and evolve around our characters, this one statement keeps reverberating through it. this statement is everything. Thors knew the truth right from the start. the story gives us the answer at the beginning, then backtracks and tests it in every way possible. when Thorfinn stows away on the ship carrying his father's murderer, you're aware of the power imbalance that exists here. Askeladd, the man in question, is an experienced warrior, and his assignment to kill Thors wasn't even supposed to be anything personal. but what means nothing to one, will mean everything to another. and as Thorfinn grows up, and gains power while surrounded by violence, and steeped in rage... the gap between them lessens, and you watch as Thorfinn strives to reach the goal of matching Askeladd. he's becoming something repulsive to his own mind, and the perspective of his father disappears from him entirely. you watch Thorfinn fail to keep this important core piece of his father alive in the world somehow, and if you were hoping for catharsis, it begs the question... what would that look like at this point? you can tell that Thorfinn considers the depth of his anger to be an expression of the depth of his love for his father... but the truth is, his anger doesn't get him any closer to that. in fact, Thors only becomes more and more distant this way. Thorfinn's anger is more about his own frustration... he can't stand that Askeladd is allowed to just keep getting away with this. but why did he love his father so much in the first place? what rendered Thors into that warm, loving person that Thorfinn misses this much? how has Thorfinn ended up so far away from something so valuable, with not a single comfort to his name? why is he torturing himself like this? retribution won't make anything about this situation better... there is no relief at the end of this road. and along the path, Thorfinn continuously engages in violence that far surpasses what was done to him. he does it dispassionately, with his eyes fixated only on his own goal. the hypocrisy of it all is inescapably evident. and Thorfinn isn't the only one. other warriors have things that they care about too. Askeladd himself has a cause that he is eventually willing to risk everything for. the only way to avoid hypocrisy is to love nothing, and forfeit your right to grief. and if that is unachievable, then you _must_ know that your misdeeds will inevitably lead to the destruction of something you once held dear, and you'll have no one to blame but yourself. you cannot be the villain in someone else's tragedy and expect to come away clean. you cannot protect anything by wreaking havoc against others. they will hate you for it, and you won't have the right to demand that the cycle of violence stop before it reaches your doorstep. *you don't have enemies. nobody has enemies.* this may not manifest as truth all on its own... but a truly strong person is the one who decides, out of pure determination, to _make_ it true for himself, and maintain it rigorously, no matter what. Thors knew. he always knew. but the tragedy of Thors is not only the relentless kindness that must exist in a man who has come to this conclusion, or the way he was taken out of a world that desperately needed to learn what he knew... but also, he died before he was able to properly communicate this belief to his beloved son, who now has to suffer through the horrors that teach lessons like these the hard way. more than just revenge, Vinland Saga is about the grieving process, and how to overcome it. how to decide what you want your life to be full of, and how to work toward that goal. the hardest thing you could ever do, is nurture something fragile, and help it thrive in a world where you know the cruelty that people are sometimes capable of. peace isn't just some random phenomenon... it's a decision. Thors literally picked the toughest and most worthy fight of all. and honestly... you'll miss him. you feel his absence, and it does hurt. but turning that pain into anger only kills him more thoroughly... and ultimately, Thorfinn has always been just a grieving child who wants his dad back.
@@103ivd [Vinland Saga spoilers ahead] the point of Vinland Saga is that pacifism is hard. it's literally the hardest fight you could ever choose, especially in a society where violence is the norm. Thors chose it anyway, and he tells us this in the very beginning. but just being told doesn't really explain why a man would choose this. when Thors dies, Thorfinn is left without that answer. so Thorfinn chooses the opposite, and we watch, as he has a really bad time. literally, choosing violence never brings him an ounce of joy. through hatred, through pain, through frustration, Thorfinn indulges in the base impulse that seems like it would make sense. revenge is an impulse that is easy to gravitate towards. no one is special for choosing it. that is weakness. it takes Thorfinn all of the first season to realize that his fight got him nowhere. what does he _actually want?_ was it this? Askeladd is dead. is this what he wanted? the truth is that Thorfinn was a grieving child, and he wanted his father back. but so far, he hasn't really considered what it was that he loved about his father. what he really missed. it is easy to give in to frustration and lash out in anger. it is hard to dedicate yourself to the protection of something fragile, in a world where violence is easy. but when Thors decided to do it anyway, he became the man that Thorfinn misses so much. and now, Thorfinn has the chance to become someone just as valuable to the world. Vinland Saga knows what it's doing.
@@kamuyking551 it’s a typical poorly written revenge story that amounts to nothing. Thorfinn becomes a copy of thors within a single arc eventho he spent his childhood and teen years with askeladd and his men. He somehow becomes a thors knock off with no original character traits eventho askeladd was more of a father figure to him and he has more memories of askeladd in the manga. I just don’t get how people think his character makes sense, wants revenge but doesn’t take it cause he somehow cares about honor after his father got killed in cold blood infront of him , but then he thinks it’s honorable doing the biddings and pillage villages for his fathers killer for 11 years. I just don’t get how he couldn’t get his revenge, it’s poorly written.
Revenge plots are arguably my favourite type of story,thanks to so many games and movies. The Punisher helped BIG TIME when it came to that specific type of story X)
When i watched the intro to this video i was confused as to why Cyberpunk was included in a talk about "Revenge" stories. And now i can properly say that i can answer for you why you didn't see Cyberpunk as a good revenge story... Because it isn't a story about revenge. Cyberpunk has no sole thing to point a finger at for Gloria's death, it wasn't about David's anger or who killed her, it is a story about a Kid forced into a lose lose scenario by a corrupt corporate infostructure that allowed injustice against the disenfranchised like David's mom, and the moral of the story is a far broader one that stems from the fact that none of this would have come to past if medical care simply was affordable and kept Gloria alive, if society cared more for it's people. It's a story about tragedy, not revenge. David didn't want revenge, even if he was angry. He just wanted to get away, go to the moon with Lucy which they couldn't do cause their upbringing and the corruption the city was bathed in forced them to choose a broken life which the edgerunners all were pushed to do like David, and the city in the end took his new family too as a statistic. You don't feel any satisfaction or think of the villains are as complex because neither Faraday nor Adam had anything to do with Gloria's death because you failed to understand that this wasn't about revenge. No amount of David "not giving in to his anger" would change that he was left with no options after his mom died, what was he SUPPOSED to do? It wasn't in his control. Cyberpunk doesn't belong in this video. The same applies to Aot too. Eren didn't choose to be a mass murderer just to satisfy his revenge, just because he thought it would be fun to do. AOT stopped being about revenge for Eren in season 3 and now it's about his rights, his people's rights. No amount of moral soul searching or understanding that revenge is inherently wrong will change the fact that the outside world wants Eren and his people dead. And if he doesn't want to die stripped of his inherent rights to the world he was born into he would have to fight back, Kill. No amount of self love will change the fact that the outside world in aot wants to eradicate paradise and will if they could, with the only thing standing in the way of that being the rumbling. Yes. it's wrong and evil but he had no choice because the world, filled with it's hatred and evil for people they didn't know left him none, consequences of their own that blew so large that now they have no choice but to stare it in the eye. Another story about tragedy.
I think cyberpunk is different. As it's less about revenge (personally i didn''t see the revenge aspect), as in the other stories it is the drive for some characters (like aqua and eren), david's is more of him believing he is special (which he is) which causes him to think that he is unstoppable, (SPOILERS AHEAD) at first it looks like that, fun time with the group and having a father like figure of Maine, then he has his slow romance with Lucy, but then everything starts to go downhill, rebeccas brother dies, Maine and Dorio die. David tries to replace Maine in the community and become big, like Maine would want to be, while Lucy goes on hunts to have David not become arasaka's toy. Which he does as the only way he see's and is "told" by lucy that it's the only thing to save everyone. The idea of David's story doesn't have much to do with revenge.
@@JustTobyK With just 1k subs you're already doing so amazing, and I can't wait to see what you can do with the support of the audience you deserve to have. You're going to be huge some day ❤️❤️
I disagree I fully associate with David’s rage for everything. David isn’t going out to kill anyone, he’s angry at the system and world that he lives in
Great video! I think the fact that David never has an emotional response is the point of Edgerunners - he's chasing this macho fantasy, this toxic masculinity that he comes to wear as a shroud for his grief. He never shows anything but anger because it'd be giving in to weakness in a world that goes for the throat
I would say that David is just so tired of the world he lives in . Living in a terrible city and in even more horrible world. Where his only hope is to become a corporate slave. He doesn't show emotions because what would be the point it wouldnt change anything. He still going to have to get up everyday and slave away so he can become a cog in some mega corps machine. He isn't necessarily chasing a macho fantasy but more a fantasy where he is free from the burden of the world ie going to the moon.
@@JustTobyK that is the entire cyberpunk genre my gamer. It is a wholly cynical rejection of the idea that technological advancement is this amazing saviour of humanity, taking the much more prophetic stance that it's just going to expand the wealth gap, and then exploring the stories in that resulting dystopia.
"its fictional why should i care" then rants about the storytelling... i feel like this is one of those cases where u watched an anime but criticized it the entire time and didnt immerse yourself or let your self actually enjoy the story therefore you didnt like the story.
OSHI NO KO WILL LIVE UP TO THE FIRST EPISODE TRUST THIS WHOLE SERIES IS SO AMAZING YOU HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT. The series will hint at things that we will eventually miss, also the fact that both main characters aqua and ruby are amazingly and insanely written you will see small bits and pieces of both falling apart as the series progresses also I wouldn't call OSHI no KO a revenge story entirely
I saw all the comments about the Edgerunners, I'm glad you saw it isn't about revenge. But what really made me iffy about this video was the way you spoke about Berserk. It made sense then, that you saw Edgerunners as a revenge story. But even Attack on Titan, they evolve so much beyond that. Let me explain: With Berserk, you say Guts is FULL ON STOIC and don't express ANY emotions. Which is factually wrong. He acts like an asshole, but if you pay attention to the panels, you can see that's a façade with cracks on it. On the first chapter, sure, he doesn't even show care for Puck. Who literally closed his wounds and he said to his face "I don't care if you live or die", and the lil guy legit get hurt by his words. But on the next chapters, even before the Golden age, you see cracks. On the Wagon for example. You see him gleefully killing the dead. But as soon as a character shows up, he gets shocked. To the point where it even gets a hit in. Even when he strikes back and kills the character, there's no epicness, there's no flair. It's not this gore fest with his other kills. It's distant, dull, mute. And he even barfs after it. It shocked him. After that, there's another moment, he say some nasty things to a child, literally tells her to kill herself. And even as she spew hate back to him, he says 'bring it on'. But soon after that, as soon as he is out of view, he starts crying. Puck can glance into his emotions so the lil guy KNOWS he is not okay with what he is doing. It makes more obvious after you have the Golden Age for context, but the hints that he isn't this edgelord are there if you're receptive to the details. Attack on Titan too, it starts with Eren yelling "IMMA KILL ALL TITANS", but it evolves into so, so much more. A full out war, what even means to be free, the fate of the very humanity of this anime's world... I honestly think what miffs me more about it, it's more that you said "It's a Revenge Story" and I automatically associated that for you, that was all it is.
I never saw edgerunners as a revenge story, for me it was more of exactly what cyberpunk is. the story of a person who lives fast and dies young. Night city is a place with no happy endings.
Literally every single anime you listed isn't trying to necessarily promote and defend the idea of revenge. Each of those characters are genuinely suffering by holding onto their hatred and murderous intent. Let's break it down 1. Guts abandons Casca in her time of need so he can kill every demon until he finds Griffith. He comes to regret this, and as he grows closer with his party he starts focusing on their safety above all us. 2. David from Edgerunners isn't even on an revenge path, he doesn't have any grand plan, he's just feeling angry and rebellious as a youth, since he lost the one person that meant the world to him. He eventually grows accustomed to his criminal life and this eventually leads to his tragic death. If he chose to run away sooner with Lucy he might have had a happy end, but he couldn't do it. 3. Aqua wasn't filled with rage until he learned Ai's true killer, his own father, escaped justice. Even still, throughout the series, we see that Aqua's focus on revenge is very unhealthy. And we know that the show is implying Aqua's quest for revenge is the wrong answer since his black star in his eyes reflect the black stars in his father's eyes. He's not following the path of Ai, he's following the psychopathic path of his father. Clearly hinting at the fact that Aqua needs to develop and move on. 4. Eren's vengeful spirit metastasized until it eventually leads to the deaths of billions of people, and his own loved one kills him. Clearly this is a cautionary tale. (that being said the ending could have been handled better)
I believe that Davids revenge was used as a method to convey that your anger shouldn't get in the way of your life's path, hence how he was eventually killed by his overuse of implants and his constant pursuit of revenge, ruining his potentially perfect future with Lucy. It's a story about the tragedy of revenge, not the completion of it or character growth from it that is shown in a lot of other revenge anime. I understood Edgerunners as a show intended to highlight the futility of revenge, and how easily it can ruin a life if taken too far. Edit: how on earth do you only have 1k subs this is top tier essay vid content
Another best written revenge plots is Vinland Saga, instead of focusing on the revenge narrative, we are shown how that revenge destroyed the mc's life and the damage that was done to him, the feeling of guilt and trauma embodied him, now, in season 2 we witness how he can move on now with his own 2 feet without having another person as his own purpose, we will witness how an empty man after losing his purpose, finds himself
This was such a captivating perspective. This video showed up at the perfect time since I just finished rereading probably my first taste of a revenge story. I used to not be able to see the appeal in revenge plots, but after reading the Kuroshitsuji manga I've learned to come around. The Kuroshitsuji manga (not the anime) is, in my opinion, one of the more underrated revenge stories. It was published around 2006 so it's not as prevalent in this discussion any more, so I thought I would bring it up. Funny enough, it would probably be more associated with the anger/stoic route yet many of us, or at least me as a manga reader, find myself rooting for Kuroshitsuji's almost villain like protagonists. Kuroshitsuji has this interesting way of convincing us that our borderline evil protagonist duo is in the right. I don't know if Ciel Phantomhive's story is more like Cyberpunk or the others mentioned (since I have yet to watch or read some of these) or is unique, but I find myself enjoying it heavily. Kuroshitsuji's is very iconic and kind of takes a very interesting and creative route. It definitely needs to be given more credit whether it is criticism or praise for how Toboso writes it! Check it out if you want (specifically the manga because the anime is quite confusing unfortunately)!
i notice that people have a hard time trying to care for characters which i don't really understand. i really like the way you explained your views on revenge stories, and while it's still hard for me to understand the sentiment of not caring about characters just cause they're fictional, i do understand your points.
Edgerunners was never a revenge story... His mom's death was just the straw that broke the camel's back that lead him to give up and take the life of crime.
I disagree with alot of the takes in this video I don’t consider Edgerunners a revenge tale because David has no grand ambition of destroying the system or anything he’s just trying to survive in a capitalist dystopia. In regards to berserk that series harshly and blatantly criticizes gut’s revenge quest and is shown to be something that’s bad for Guts and the people around him. Reread chapter 129 of berserk for an example of the series blatantly criticizing Gut’s revenge quest. Also I think a big part of you not vibing with edgerunners was not understanding the sociopolitical subtext inherent to all stories within the cyber punk genre
Lelouch: I have unresolved anger towards my father. Charles: Oh shut, your childhood was wonderful, Hell you're the only one of my children I actually like.
As a manga reader who read oshi no ko, its a good revenge story, unlike cyberpunk (not saying that cyberpunk sucks). Aqua doesn't go to physical contact with the villain even though he knows his name and where he works, but he just steps back and messes with him psychologically, unlike david who goes in guns a blazing.
@@N0noy1989 well yeah it isn't, but it got some elements. So you can count that as a part of the story but not entirely a genre even if theres barely an aspect shown about revenge. Atleast there's an reason for revenge even if its ignored most of the time.
David's story is not even about revenge, he and his mother accidentally got into a gang fight, then his mother can't get enough treatment because of the terrible healthcare system. When the rich kid mock him, he got angry and just need to vent out his rage to the bully in his school. All of the bad things happened to him are stemmed from social problems, which is kinda hard to revenge on or even realise it in the first place. After that arc, he just got involved with criminal gang and barely care about revenging, just guilt over not being able to save his mother, because David is in fact a very good guy, he only rage a handful of time like after his mother dead or got into cyber hallucination
It's wrong to have cyberpunk in this video. Cyberpunk describes the inevitable reality of trying to make dreams come true, to reach a "happy ending" inside a world that fundamentally believes human lives have no value outside of the profit they can produce. David isnt trying to get revenge from arisaka, he just realises that as long as both him and arisaka exist he can never have peace. David only seeks revenge momentarily, his character is not at all driven by it. Additionally the whole toxic "im built diff" mentality of david satirises the toxic neoliberal/capitalist "great men can change the world" cliche cause in reality no one person, no matter how special they are, can "win" within a society like cyberpunk's. Cyberpunk is generally very political (you can look up the creator's views if you'd like to see more) and if it has to have a central theme, it'd probably be that anarchocapitalism and human hapiness can never coexist. Revenge has practically nothing to do with this anime.
I’m just angry, idk why, but I’ve always been like that at a young age due to my sensitivity Hearing that people are hardly that angry is so foreign to me
Well,sometime its hormonal,you have too much or not enough of certain thing and it leave a weird burning feeling of anger...i mean specificaly if you just natural feel angry for no reason at all.If its not that, i guess its time for you to ask yourself the big question...unless you like being angry?Also feel free to ignore this if you find it annoying,am just saying that because i used to be like that a little.
I dont know, people are just different, im not angry all the time like you, but i almost always get angry in situations where other people get sad. It's kinda strange.
I love revenge so much. The only time revenge plots fail for me is when the mc decides to give up their revenge, to try and be a better person, to forgive them. I dont want better, i dont want forgiveness, i want petty, i want bitter, i want anger and i want them to leave havinh completed their goal of revenge.
Yeah it's fun when Mc gets their revenge the whole " if you kill him you aren't better then him" is a bad incentive to stop revenge, it's more cringe whne MC give up after sacrificing lives
I'm making a revenge style story and the main character is one who absolutely refuses to lose his honor. There will be a greater focus on what honor means. And the events of the narrative will question whether or not one should live by such a code of honor if it only brings them misery. It'll question why he clings so desperately to it, what it's even good for, what it will accomplish. Is it a code of honor? or is it just being stubborn? These are all questions that will challenge the main character's morals. The quest for vengeance and to never abandon the way of the sword are embedded in this code of honor. Perhaps the reason he clings so desperately to this code of honor is because he feels that it's all he has left. Leading his friends to their deaths leaves an emotional toll, being left with nothing but a broken sword leaves him feeling powerless. He feels guilty, so perhaps he seeks both redemption and retribution through this code of honor? And he fears that losing this code of honor will turn him into exactly the type of person his enemy is. Akuma's vengeance is both out of rage as well as his sense of honor. He believes it would be honorable to kill her in the memory of his friends, and to calm his own rage. His rage and his honor will definitely clash with one another throughout the narrative, but this is the only time they both align.
Cyberpunk wasn't a revenge story... David's mom died in a random act of violence by thugs who never show up again. David spends most of the show just trying to get by. The closest thing to revenge is when he beats up that bully at school.
Berserk isn’t just a revenge manga it’s a story about a person and his struggles It disturbs me that u don’t think berserk is one of the best story ever written
Im still so confused how people think any of the villians in Edgerunners are meant to be villians. Its kinda obvious they arent, they are plot devices to move the story forward. The world of Night City is the villian, David is lashing out at a world that he cant defeat but is trying his best to make a name for himself. Probably why so many people can relate to the depressing atmosphere of the world given that Cyberpunk is a genere built on a crituiqe of the world
Its kind of funny how spectacularly this guy missed the point of most of these anime and just grouped them as "revenge stories", none of them from Berserk or even AoT are "revenge stories", revenge is merely a theme that becomes prominent on occasion and even then usually falls away. OnK from what I've seen is the closest and even then there are more major themes than revenge lol and making this video with a segment on it when there was one episode out is crazy. It's not that you weren't "angry enough", it's that you didn't understand the themes lul
I can't speak for Edgerunner or Oshi no Ko, since I haven't watched them, but my interpretation doesn't exactly align with yours for Eren and Guts. Eren's conversation with Reiner in the basement confirms that Eren isn't doing this for revenge. As the story progresses, we eventually find out that he's doing this for his freedom, as seen in the "this is freedom" scene, and the lives of his friends, as seen multiple times where he mentions he says he wants them to live long lives. What makes Eren compelling to me is learning what freedom means to him and how far he would go to achieve this. While I'm sure Guts wanted revenge at first, I believe his character arc is about his personal trauma and how he continues to persevere. As the story progresses, we see him slowly deal with his anger and starts opening up to other people. What makes Guts compelling to me is his indomitable human spirit. Everything was taken away from him, and yet he chooses to survive. Overall, I feel that Aot and Berserk aren't really watched for their "Revenge" plotlines. There are more compelling aspects to both these stories that certainly don't need the watcher to be angry.
There ia no revenge in cyberpunk edgerunner, the story is just being a story, the show shines its best at animation quality, soundtracks and fast but perfect pacing. Don’t judge a fish by its capability of flying in the air
My thing with Berserk is that whatever Guts does to Griffith it won't break/ change Griffith. I don't think even killing him will get rid of him for good
I feel like in edgerunners at least, it would make sense ig? Different people deal with sadness and grief... well, differently. Davis is just the type to find a way to deal with it for most of the series he doesn't even have enough hate to target arasaka itself. I feel like he's just running away from it all. In general the story of edgerunners was more about the characters in a fucked up city. And David struggled with the fundamentals of actually being a character. He was led around after his mothers death. An aimless kid forced into school because that was the only way up with a mother that provided for him until one little accident forced her body to shutdown. After her death.... same thing An aimless kid forced into being an edgerunner because that was the only way up with a group of similar/like-minded people to give him company. All he did was follow the dreams of others. Be it his mentor's dream, Lucy's dream and at the very end he even got to "the top of arasaka tower" like his mother told him to. He is like any young teenager. Too confused about the world around him, not knowing how to really live. It really resonates with me because i too was... probably still am like that. And i believe the heart of the matter here is that David... LACKS a goal for himself. No dream to strive for, only dreams of other people kept him going. Just my take on edgerunners though.
You really dont need anger to enjoy Revenge stories. Often Revenge stories show the Anger to be a non-solution to the problem, entertaining, getting you to think but not the end goal or the height of the storyline.
Vinland Saga I’d say does the revenge story just as well, (Not sure if you’ve read it or not so spoilers) In its approach to never actually achieving revenge watching Thorfinn fail before your eyes and his goal dies before he achieves it, he never had a plan beyond his rage falling into emptiness of depression and has to build himself back from scratch via the farm Similar to Berserk but unlike Thorfinn, Guts never gets a break and still has the chance to kill Griffith in the story From there Thorfinn has to evolve beyond his original goal into fighting for a greater purpose in his pursuit towards becoming a True Warrior Wanting to benefit as many people and not being selfish in his desires
With Oshi no Ko Aqua's revenge plot stem from the person AI who was his mother and his only reason for living be taken away in abrupt fashion. Therefore, the revenge feels justified since all anger is rooted in sadness, pain and feelings of weakness as an attempt to fight back in a situation you do not know how to overcome. In comparison with cyberpunk edge runners , The stylisation of how David Martinez Lives his life parallels the mindset of The world is shit and corrupt so I am going to try and get out of it and be the "best" with no prior plan which weirdly parallels a lot of people in real life throwing themselves at massive problems without understanding them and getting absolutely bodied by the same problems they did not think about. For one who takes what you love or to deceive you for the worst. If you live by not adding knowledge to the way you feel to create something useful to you. It will always lead in recklessness and an early grave. In addition, I am angry a lot -> It comes from: dissatisfaction, betrayal ,lies and assumptions
I'm a sucker for revenge stories. Morally i'm all for it, i love the concept and yet, my favorite anime/manga to have tackled revenge has got to be Vinland Saga
Cyberpunk is a punk story, hence the angst and being angry with the world. On a side note, and so i am not saying what most people are saying, Cyberpunk isnt a revenge story or at least it is not the main focus (mainly since the one who he is angry at isn't a person, its Night City itself) Also, a fun fact, David repeats, he's just "built different" is based on the idea of someone falling from a building and saying "so far so good" before facing their cruel end
I would argue revenge isn’t the focus of Edgerunners. It isn’t the mega corps that take his mother from him, it’s not the mega corps that kick him out of his house, it’s night city itself. A city that forces the poor to disregard their morals in order to survive. Though influenced by the mega corps it’s the systems in the city that David rebels against. It’s a story about trying and tragically failing to take down an extreme capitalist system. I would argue that David doesn’t want revenge but justice and equality. In the end however, David dies just like those before him, failing to make any real impact, killed by the system. He also dies trying to fulfil another’s dream just like he was doing with his mother
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 96 | คู่เอก "คมอาวุธ vs พันฤทธิ์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ofERaO0gOsE/mqdefault.jpg)
Already I’ve read a few comments that have helped shift my perspective of Edgerunners. The take away I’m getting is that I seem to have falsely classified it as a revenge plot when it kind of isn’t one. Viewing it through that lens seems to be the reason I didn’t enjoy it all that much. I’m not going to take back anything I said in the video because that was my genuine interpretation of it. But that’s the beauty of the internet. Gaining a new perspective.
Also, just in case this isn't clear, here's what the title is meant to mean. Revenge and anger aren't selling points to me, so revenge stories have to give me more than that in order to get me invested. I'm not angry enough of a person to get invested in a story from that alone. Anyways, thanks for all the support
here i was typing out a long asss comment about how edgerunners isn't a revenge story(loved it btw). i also do agree with your opinion on the main character but he's already hard for me to relate to since my both my parents are still alive and i dont live in a crime/ gang infested city.
@@AllhoursYOUMINbias Yes, he should. That's how discussions happen.
@@AllhoursYOUMINbias He didnt say he had a negative experience with it. He publicly posted a video that has comments for people to express their opinion. If he didnt want a discussion he would have disabled comments or not replied at all. Calling it harassment is a bit far.
please pin this comment of yours. As it clarifies your intrepretation of the anime
@cheryl kwon and I'm saying after 1000 times it's still not harassment and would be dumb to call it that. Most of the comments aren't being rude about it.
I felt that Edgerunners was much more a story about David being unable to cope with the tragedy in his life and using modifications as a coping mechanism instead. So it's not that David doesn't have emotions, it's that he doesn't process them well, until the last episode.
Yea I don't see Edgerunners as a revenge story at all
Literally saw the thumbnail and thought “why the hell is edgerunners here”
The latter half of edge runners was literally a love story with most of the motivations coming from a desire to self-sacrifice for the ones you love. Overall however it was very clearly a Shakespearean tragedy (as a genre). The whole point was getting you attached to David and then watching his life fall apart in spectacular fashion.
Yeah I got the vibe he wanted something current for the thumbnail, didn't know what to put and chose something that fits if you squint while doing a hand stand.
fr fr
What makes Berserk work in my opinion is that while the idea that Guts wants revenge on Griffith is constant, it’s very rarely the main motivator behind what Guts does moment to moment. It’s an overarching goal, but Guts acknowldges, at least eventually, that some things are more important, and he finds purpose with his RPG party outside of killing Griffith.
Exactly! The Golden Age shows us the events that are still festering in the back of Guts' mind, but he continues moving forward both mentally and physically despite the earth shattering levels of trauma
@@JustTobyK I never saw cyberpunk as a revenge story and I think your enjoyment may have hinged on that.
I came into it as a coming-of-age story because for most of the show he really wasn't angry at anyone . maybe the system, but you can't really be angry at a entire society made of people and he already got revenge on his bully. the stories in part about overbearing systems and David basically becoming a criminal king pin /a legend. The anger seems less of "I want revenge" any more I'm a teenage boy were trying to find my way in the world are feeling most guys know where you're not angry at anyone in particular With no one to regulate him because he has no parents. Cyberpunk isn't about rationality and really non of the actions would've changed with David taking a step back because it's just Davids character, his decisions, are really not led by anger but more by him just being a dumb kid.
You may just don't resonate with coming-of-age stories, but I resonate with stories, like cyberpunk edge runners , FLCL and Yu Yu hakusho the stories, don't hanker on anger, but the development and mindset of the main character growing.
Personally, I did not like attack on Titan, because I could not care less about the revenge plot because I did not care about Erin's and his change from hero to villain wasn't interesting to me.
Same happens with leluch his story is for revenge but he cares for his people
Yes! But unfortunately……
@@sugartoothYT I can understand where he's coming from. Tbf being a global phenomenon doesn't mean everyone will like it though.
I started losing interest in AoT ever since the truth of the world was revealed. I had theorized that Eren would die in the finale but the way his story was handled from the Marley arc onwards, and that finale, turned many people away.
id hardly call edgerunners a revenge story as revenge isnt even the main aspect of it, its a tragedy about davids failure to protect the ones he cares about, not about taking down arasaka or big corporate. so maybe you didnt like it because you were looking at it in the wrong light
honestly i feel like he didn't finish it. no way you could get that wrong. like revenge on what?
I did finish it! My interpretation was that David wanted revenge against the world in general for stripping away his loved ones unfairly and the corporations that helped make the world what it is.
@@JustTobyK I will admit that is something he definitely felt, and the cause of his rebellious nature. But not something that was the main focus of the show. I felt the show was more about cycles of hatred. One bad act causes another one. It's similar to revenge. But without a clear objective
@@JustTobyK David never had revenge as his main motive, he stays in school to protect his mom and when his mom dies he gets depressed not vengeful or hateful, even when joining the edgerunners he doesn't do it to get revenge he does it for the money. When Pilar dies he gets revenge on that one cyber psycho but nobody else and he kills the psycho to protect Lucy as the main motive, not avenging pilar. When Maine dies he doesn't go back to get revenge, he goes back to doing jobs that have nothing to do with the downfall of arasaka. Etc etc he never goes out to get revenge, he goes out to protect his loved ones and does jobs not for revenge but to support himself and his loved ones
@@JustTobyK David does not want revenge against the world. He does not come off as an angry person. David is actually a sacrificial person. He's willing to sacrifice himself for his mother's expectation for his life, then hes willing to sacrifice himself for mane and his cause. And ultimately he's willing to sacrifice himself for Lucy's dream. If David felt like he had another way to a better life he would have done things differently. David attached himself to the cyberpunk lifestyle because in his eyes that was the one way to be free and that was the only thing he felt like he could a succeed in. Especially in a world where he knew the system was rigged against him. David was over confident and believed he was special he pushed himself to the brink thinking he could pull himself back.
If Beserk doesn't make you angry enough for revenge than I guess you're into ntr a bit too much
☠
It's not even just what he did to Casca, it's that he sacrificed the Band of the Hawk entirely. These were people who were loyal to him and considered him a dear friend, but he doesn't care at all. It shows how little he really cared about people who loved him, because he only ever saw them as a means to an end and that if leading them all to their deaths was all he had to do to achieve his ambition, he'd do so happily and then some. He didn't just callously sacrifice those who loved him, he reveled in the pain and despair he caused. If that doesn't spark rage, I don't know what can.
@@mindmaster323 Honestly after both watching the Golden Age anime adaptations and reading the manga... I understand and feel the rage that Guts' has and I fucking hope he get's to kill Griffith
@@mindmaster323casca liked it tho
@@user-og9nl5mt1b hilarious bait comment LOL!
The thing most people miss or forget about Cyberpunk is that the main villain isn’t a person, but Night City itself. NC forces the people who live there to abandon parts of their humanity for the sake of survival and that’s the root cause of the show’s problems
@@MIRAK-EL Sort of, yeah. The Culture influences the individual. When people are atomized and isolated from each other socially, they don’t cooperate unless they have clearly defined material benefits from doing so.
I would see it as, corporations, rather than night city, personally. Night City represents the people, like David and his crew, or the middle men that get betrayed by arasaka anyway. The city is meant to be something that can always be fluid, that can get eaten by corporations, or may not have to.
Calling Oshi No Ko a revenge story is like calling it an idol story. It's not necessarily wrong, but it's also not the central focus of the story either. Oshi No Ko is very unique in the fact that it doesn't really have a genre or focus point. The manga switches from rom-com, to revenge story, to battle shonen, to idol story, to murder mystery every few chapters, and it's done so effortlessly and flawlessly that it's genuinely incredible.
I wanna describe it as an insight example story where it doesn't focus on one genre that revolves around a feeling but more on unfolding the dark truth in the entertainment industry
Its literally a revenge story with many sidequests, dude. I like oshi no ko as well but dont pretend its not a revenge story. Every arc always finds a way to remind aqua for his revenge, even if the purpose was comedic.
You've just missed the entire point of the OP lol. Dumbing it down to a "revenge story with many sidequests" also hurts the experience and comes off as having a shallow analysis on what type of story the author is conveying. To me, it's more of a tragedy than a revenge story considering there's tons of commentary regarding the cutthroat and cold nature of the showbiz industry and how in turn these can affect the outlooks of the people involved from the actors to the idols. Ai's murder just so happens to be one of those events that happens ever so often in that industry and we're just going along for the ride of someone who's dealing with its aftermath.
Revenge is part of the story, not the main course, it only looks that way because we're seeing the entire journey through someone who's seriously not coping well with what happened (with understandable reasons too).
@@pisaschitt787
You missed a lot of points if that's your take.
@@pisaschitt787 the revenge story is literally just a plot device for MC's motivation, but the whole point of Oshi no Ko is to show us the dark side of the entertainment industies, which are the main theme of what Oshi no ko tries to convey to its audiences, not the revenge story itself.
I mean, you're technically not wrong to call it a revenge story since it's the main catalyst, but to brand other things as simply "side quest" isn't right either
I think the reason why Aqua has a really good revenge motivation is very subtle. It's that the entire time Aqua was someone who had the potential to be that revenge fueled sociopath disguised in what seems to be a normally functioning human being. He's very isolationist, he has a fixation over his mother that should not be normal for a kid, he is very intelligent and uses it to his advantage, he subtly tricks and manipulates the people around him when it's to benefit himself or Ai, even before Ai's death there were these seemingly throw away hints that we didn't even realize were red flags all along. It was just the death of his mother that made what seemed to be someone normally functioning human on the surface spiral into the monster that he always had the potential to be. And what makes it even more insane is that to the viewer Aqua was normal but those small cracks in the character became fissures and it just made sense.
I think his bigger revenge motivation is because he's already been killed by someone who was influenced by the father/mastermind. He thinks it boils down to the same person who killed him and his mother so he needed to stop the father and know his ulterior motivation before it happens again
Aqua doesnt know this but he literally acts like an obsessive fan except this time she is literally related to the idol that was murdered and saw all of it first hand. If he wasnt a reincarnation he might be doing revenge for the sake of her mother, instead of thinking of her as an idol and nothing more
@@pisaschitt787 yeah he is basically a obsessed fan of Ai
If I'm being honest, one thing in surprised/kinda disappointed you didn't really touch upon was the difference in antagonists between Cyberpunk and the other media and I think it kinda paints a better picture of what the story was going for.
Every example except Cyberpunk paints a clear target for revenge
Guts is Griffith
Aqua is the killer (I think so I haven't watched the anime discussed)
Hell even Eren has that in the formcof Marley/the rest of the world (normally wouldn't be a viable "antagonist" but Eren gets the power to destroy the world)
Cyberpunk doesn't have that, or at the very least I think discussing Faraday and Adam smasher in the context of a revenge plot is faulty.
The circumstances behind the death of David's mother were entirely systematic and random. They were caught in the crossfire of a surprise gang fight and when the trauma team came down they COULD have helped David's mom but decided not to because she wasn't a paying member.
In this instance those gang members were just doing what gang members do and the trauma team were arguably doing their jobs. What Night City perpetuates is a cycle of violence which gets innocent people caught up in it. That's something that David realizes when he shoots the Ankara employee who reminds him of his mother. I think the big difference that really should've been mentioned is the big difference in power that David has compared to his target of "revenge".
Sure Faraday is an antagonist but David never seeks vengeance after him (I don't count the ending since he was trying to get Lucy back, which by that logic Mario is getting revenge on Bowser) and by the time Adam Smasher comes into the story, David doesn't care. When Adam is directly in his face asking him to focus on the fight, David ignores him to try and save Lucy.
The difference is that David can't exactly make a difference. There's no bad guy he can just punch and make Night City suddenly be better. The Trauma team still operates the same way no matter how many members he and his gang kill.
Hell it's shown off right after the death. He deals with money issues as he now must sneak into the apartment due to rent being past due, the cremation was the cheapest option, his mother didn't have good Healthcare, he couldn't properly wash his clothes, etc etc.
The main reason I disagree with the idea of Cyberpunk being primarily about revenge or even that David really works in this comparison is that the focus was moreso on how David was going to live on both mentally, physically and logistically after his mother's death rather than who/what he needs revenge on. After he has his rematch with the one bully who beat him, he's kind of just done revenge-plot wise.
To me, him joining the edgerunners felt moreso about finding sustainability and purpose in life after he lost it.
I really appreciate this comment. This helps me see the whole series in a different light. From the get-go, I interpreted the series as a revenge plot. I saw it as David blaming the corporations for how messed up Night City is and wanting to get revenge on the evil CEOs that essentially took his mother from him.
Well in case of Aqua target is not the killer, he self terminated. Aqua is searching for a person who manipulated the killer behind the scenes.
I was gonna say when I came into this video I was like, "wait cyberpunk was a revenge story? I missed that." Well I suppose cyberpunk could be interpreted as a revenge plot but even then it'd be one with no target for revenge. Even Faraday and Adam, as antagonistic as they are, are just other cogs in the machine of the unfair world of cyberpunk. Even when faraday dies, no one cares because he doesn't matter. He's just another cog in the machine. I agree with a lot of the points you made
@@JustTobyK man you just gotta love these kinda conversations
@GomuGomuNoToby Yeah I think the best way to put it is that with Cyberpunk the true antagonist is Night City.
Everything that happened to David is just par for the course of Night City. David isn't really going out of his way to do anything but live and constantly gets punished for it due to who he is.
He's poor so the kids at his school pick on him mercilessly, he has a blessed body to the corporations want to lure him in and turn him into a mindless soldier.
He tries to hide behind a layer of stoicism because you need that stoicism to survive Night City. Julio dies but it's par for the course and due to his own inexperience, if David got too emotional then he'd never get anything done.
I think the point is showing how the extreme capitalist society of Night City turns people into machines the more they go on. Both physically and mentally
Aqua's motivation for revenge is not anger. He is motivated by regret, the regret of being a doctor and being unable to save Ai, the regret of not telling Ai about the stalker.
SPOILERS!!!
In later chapters we can see how Aqua actually wants the whole revenge thing to be over, he believe Himekawa (his half brother) when he tells him that his father is already dead without even questioning if that person is really his father, we see through his PTSD episodes that he is motivated by the regret of being unable to save Ai even though he had the memories of his past life as a doctor, he is haunted by his past life and by his inability at that moment.
Aqua in reality just wants everything to be over, he is motivated by regret
(Spoiler: Unlike Ruby who is motivated by pure anger)
(Sorry for my bad English)
Please put more space on the spoiler part. It still can be seen partially on PC.
@@ReigoVassal better?
Good point
I also read another comment that is why Aqua is way more into revenge than Ruby.
As a doctor, he can't save his patient.
As a fan, he can't save his idol.
As a son, he can't save his mother.
that still revenge those and still anger
Attack on Titan may have started as a revenge story but now?.... It's not just about revenge anymore. The actions of current Eren are not driven by anger or revenge. They are driven by his desperation to protect the people he cares about.
And not even just desperation as he clearly stated that he just wanted this. A way of achieving "his" freedom and basically this is who Eren is
Most of all revenge stories does become like that slowly it makes you question is revenge even worth would that make everything right how much it would be satisfying and how much it won't be, Attack on titan does portray those emotions brilliantly.
I dont watch the anime and its been a while since ive read it, but isnt saying his motivations spoilers. You find that out at the end and was suppose to be some big reveal.
@@Nusutto I have read the manga too. But here, I am only speaking based on what has been shown in the anime version only.....
@@anjaneyasreetrout2444 oh, I swear you hear why he does his plan at the very end
I feel that Berserk, as is Vinland Saga , is a story about overcoming anger. Trought the story we see Guts being affected by the Eclipse, see him consumed by his anger, see the things the anger makes him do, like almost AHEM AHEM-ing Casca and before that leaving her alone at the mountain instead of staying with her. By the time we get to chp 269 it seems that hes almost forgotten that anger, but then 270-271 happens and well....yea "overcoming anger isnt as simple as runing from it" is the lesson i feel Guts is on his way to learn
Eren is also overcoming his anger, it becomes sadness, knowing he's the reason for everything happening and unsure of what to do. Hence where the "I just keep moving forward" marks it as the most important line in the entire series.
Eren's overcoming starts from the early stages of Season 3, and afterwards, he's a changed man.
Eren is actually still angry but his anger is shifted towards him and the world.
Just like you said by knowing hes the reason all of this had happen he goes out of his way to fulfill his purpose.
@@codm_haz3627 hmm you may be right. I wouldn't consider him angry, but rather dissappointed and depressed.
@@NToniiiii it starts in the Final Season right? Jokes aside ive never watched AOT and i have no idea what you guys are talking about
@@drakootherat1735 I definitely recommend it.
A nice flow between Shounen and Seinen! :)
Oshi no Ko is honestly much more focused on character studies/progression and showbiz than the revenge plot being the focus 24/7. It's still there, but mostly in the background, as Aqua is a very lowkey person who does long term plans.
Although Berserk makes us feel angry at times, it also tries to make us forget about revenge and seek journey to the other way, that is to heal Casca. Berserk doesn't want you to be angry all the time, it sincerly tries to make you overcome the anger that you felt. Leave the past behind, forget Griffith, turn away from those people who hurt you.
I never thought about Cyberpunk as a revenge anime. Just how the city and environment pushed people to survive, thus showcasing how David was pushed over the edge.
I would argue that edgerunners isn’t really a revenge story to begin with. The story is meant to convey the struggles of survival in an oppressive, dysfunctional future, where all one can do is resist while trying their hardest not to be consumed. (It has a secondary focus on morality, insanity, and all that jazz)
If it’s a revenge plot then I am usually already hooked
Well I do understand David’s response, people are different, Some people response to loss would be simply anger, had a friend who lost a parent , my guy was irritated, angry never wanted to share about his feelings , that’s just how people are, you are soft while others don’t want to remotely be that way
Kinda feel that the point of AoT and Edgeruners was out of point
Edgeruners is more about survival and keep its individualism in a cruel city, was about a kid who lost his only family and had to survive finding a new one, and everyones dreams being fullfiled in a twisted way
About AoT revenge is only part of the plot because the story starts in the middle. The "revenge" of the marleyans over the endians was due to Fear, and the only person that screams revenge is Eren. But in the big picture, everything was planed and executed by Eren to protect his kind, not for revenge. Hence many ppl agreed with his actions
To understand why Edgerunners was, how it was
You'd first have to understand what the world of cyberpunk itself is supposed to be. And honestly, i would never put the story of David, or even the story of V as an revenge plot. Theres a lot more to those characters than just their hate for night city
Having read the manga so slight spoilers, I don’t get the sense that Oshi no ko is a revenge story. More like a tragedy. We see how Aqua’s search for revenge holds himself from happiness and corrupts those around him. We don’t want his father to go free because he’s an irredeemable monster once revealed, but it’s clear that Aqua is self-destructing to take him down and that is a tragedy.
As someone who read oshi no ko before the amazing 1 hour and a half episode dropped,. I didn't think it would be this loved by everyone, I had it in a slightly higher level than something like mashle and i have hells paradise over it, But the prologue in the anime was done so brilliantly, way better at hooking me in when i already knew the twist, The anime has such crazy colours which you obviously don't see in the manga
I dunno. I don't really share the opinion that you have to be angry to enjoy a revenge story. Good writing is good writing. I get everyone has their taste. I can hardly say i like berserk for example because it's a revenge story. It's a series that I love because despite the bleak and hopeless story of gut's life where he finds himself constantly in the worst situations even down to how he was born. Berserk is a story about people, living, moving forward despite the brunt of a harsh cruel world and the terrible situations they are given. Berserk is a story about hope ultimately. Guts may have started on a revenge path and he still definitely wants to cleave Griffith's head from his body. But there's so much more to it than that. Guts now has so many people that he fights for it's not just about getting revenge for the Falcon and Caska. And I think those moments of quiet with the cast of characters in less extreme situations highlights this. BERSERK isn't over as I write this but I don't believe the series is going end with guts ripping Griffith limb from limb and winning his revenge . I think like most of of berserks most poignant moments it'll end quiet. Probably sad. But hopeful.
And I think personally the best revenge stories end with the character realizing revenge doesn't help and that they need to free themselves of it.
I have never seen people talk about Edgerunners as a revenge story
I don't think it really is
Is gonna sound harsh but if you think Cyberpunk is a revenge story fueled by rage you need to go back to literature class.
It’s not about revenge, it’s about making a name for yourself in a place where everything is possible. David don’t want to burn the city literally but more to leave his mark and become a legend. And when there is old style punk revenge which I think isn’t the same, fundamentally cause it’s more about ideological revolution (which isn’t the theme it was going for)
Also yeah, Cyberpunk story should be watched as a whole so you would be kept “on edge” IMHO.
Hi! Thank you for your comment, but I unfortunately have not attended a literature class. That may be the issue at hand here. While I understand now from the influx of comments that my interpretation of Cyberpunk Edgerunners is one that varies from the general public, it is how my human brain chose to interpret it. Even if the writer/s were to make an official statement saying that it isn’t a revenge story, it doesn’t change the fact that the human brain go brrrr. What I spoke in the video is just my personal interpretation. Thank you for your time and for clicking on my video :)
@@JustTobyK Thanks for reply ! I am sorry for sounding like a snob, I guess I just like the show and game a bit too much.
Revenge arc is not just about anger. Why it makes you angry? It is crucial to understand a character's want and need (a.k.a Monkey Paw problem). Revenge arc always involves losing something or someone (it doesn't need to be death, it can be symbolic), and that something/someone has profound connection to what the hero wants (usually not what the hero needs, but there may be exceptions, which depends on author's theme and goal for the story).
The trigger of anger is depends on whether the hero resonates with you and you understand the significance of the something/someone that hero has lost; this isn't just about tears or how loud can the voice actor scream, although they definitely make your more emotional.
Not sure why Cyberpunk was in the comparison cause it wasn't about revenge. IMO, It's more about characters' struggles to preserve humanity and bonds in a world that doesn't give shit about them.
In my opinion, the best revenge stories are never about revenge. Like you said, getting your audience to care about a revenge plot requires a lot of time spent on building characters, and that usually involves emotions that are a lot more compelling than the simple anger that is used to kickstart a revenge story. This leads to the story evolving into something much deeper than a typical revenge narrative. Both Berserk and Vinland Saga have a long winded prologue built to make you care about Guts/Thorfinn, but ultimately both become about a man finding his meaning and purpose in life, as well as opening up and trusting people. It's ironic the two best revenge stories in manga are directly antithetical to the concept of revenge. Revenge is just a means to an end, a plot device, and never the point of the actual story.
I disagree about your take that all revenge is meaningless in fiction. Sometimes it's the only thing that'll end the tormenter of the protagonist and/or the remorseless villain.
Woah woah woah I didn’t say all that
@@JustTobyK Then why did you say at 10:05, that revenge is never worth it, or does only apply for Attack on Titan.
@@dragon387ify you missed the part immediately before that 10:02
I think Edgerunners is a terrible revenge anime just because it isn't a revenge anime. The story is about David trying to find a reason to live, and his place in Night City. The death of his mother was tragic, but David never actually went out to find the killers of their mom. Her death was just to prove to David that no-names like himself got nothing that protects them.
Commenting for the algorithm. Thanks for sharing. I’m really surprised you don’t have more subscribers.
Hey, thanks so much!
Okay, you may not relate to David, but that doesn’t mean he’s a bad character. Even though I do not relate too much to him either, I have known quite a few people that are like him and react in a way I can find illogical, but I can understand how he acts. I just don’t think it’s fair for you to not like it because you don’t relate.
Also the world of Cyberpunk is a literal Dystopia so yeah of course it’s got this bad world feeling to it. Sorry if this comes off as like aghh Cyberpunk fan blindly defending the show.
I never said David was a bad character or that I didn’t understand him. I didn’t like what I understood about him. Also not to be rude but I think it’s actually very fair to not like something for any reason. You could say that you don’t like my face and you don’t even have to HAVE a reason for that. David is objectively well written, but I did not subjectively like him
Don’t worry about Oshi no Ko having peaked in the first episode. Aqua is a fantastic protagonist and the story does a lot with character relationships outside of the revenge premise. The revenge acts more as a through line to guide the overall narrative rather than a moment by moment dictation of motivations
I read the Oshi no ko manga last week and I felt strangely emotionally invested in the story. I have tried to figure out why ever since, and one thing that actually confused me was why I felt drawn to the claim of taking revenge. I am also not much of an angry person although I know the feeling of being wronged and wishing for consequences or starting them off, and all the brute force approaches to seeking revenge seem unnatural to me.
What I found for now is that what really dragged me along, so much that I read all night into the morning, was the "hidden in the shadows" aspect. Reading the situation, infiltration, manipulation. I am a manipulative piece of shit that keeps reading people like books from the sidelines and sometimes directs their actions or way of thinking based on what I learned about them, without them ever noticing. Mostly, it turned out in their favor, though, I did not use it to hurt them, but to push them toward their dreams and desires. And most of all, the reason I do this is because I can't handle anything directed at myself. If I control the play, I don't end up at the center of it if I don't want to. And all the people I fought with ended up leaving at some point, which I thought was a nice coincidence, but I think I made it happen. I did not lie nor tell anyone to do anything, but by the way I approached and talked to people, I made them act based on their own feelings.
The way I deal with people who have hateful motivations is showing them sides of me they can relate to and then center their attention to something else that will make their hate turn into a neutral feeling. Which is also where I can relate to the acting parts of the story, as I am acting as that version of myself; someone who can make it happen. Also, the story heavily relates to a lot of issues that trauma can give to you, suddenly the whole world changes and the feeling of being on the edge can't go away no matter how normal or happy you might appear on the outside.
The first anime episode/first 10 manga chapters showcase who the people are that we follow through the story, and what their intentions are. As someone manipulative, this is exactly what I am looking for in people. If there is someone I can't understand, I don't get involved with them. And usually, people I can speak to person to person tell me their backstories. And the only type of person I don't understand? It's mostly the angry people. Who try to set themself apart by being unlikeable and powerful and who ignore people that don't matter to them. Many action shows are like this, which is why I don't really follow this genre all too much despite the great shows out there.
The desire for violence is something many people have inside of them, and revenge can just be a reason to let it out. Someone who does not have a desire for violence will not want to commit to it even if their loved one was killed in front of them. I have met some people with similar backstorys to common narratives, and they have been the furthest from your average revenge protagonist you could imagine. They had compassion, more than anyone else. Revenge was something they needed to be free, not something they had to force through at all cost. Some even felt compassion for those who wronged them, rather than anger.
Revenge is rooted to love. You cant truly hate something if it doesn't threaten something you love.
I never thought of cyber punk as a revenge story
What sold Eren's character in the manga was indeed his little realization (that didn't make it into anime) at the start :
"Mom is dead! I can never see or hear her again!" with a panel of her taking care of him.
And this is before getting how Eren keep remembering his mom whenever he's at his lowest and needed a bit of push
IMO, berserk is the only anime listed in this video that is a revenge story. Attack on titan. Is about a lot of things. Revenge is one of them. But survival, betrayal, and seeking truth takes way more story line up then revenge. I would say revenge is less then 5% of the storyline. BUT Edgerunners? I feel like u lost ur marbles with this one. David is never seeking revenge in the show. He is dealing with loss in a unfair world, in unhealthy ways. But he never is seeking revenge. He seeks romance, he seeks a better life, he seeks to make his loved ones happy and safe. But he never seeks revenge. I feel like you didn't even watch edge runners.
It's hard for me to believe anyone could watch edgerunners and come to that conclusion. Maybe that's why you didn't like it. Because you saw the first ep and just figured it was a revenge story and didn't finish the ep 2.
Lol sorry I hate to accuse you of doing that, but really. How did you come to that conclusion. Could you reply with ur reasoning on what actions david took that made you believe that ER was a revenge story?
another reason to read Fire Punch
the point of edgerunners was you cant get revenge because theres not an "enemy" to get revenge at. its corporations.
You miss understood Eren's character. His motivation started out as revenge. But that stopped by the end of the 3rd season. By that time he is motivated by three things. Protecting his friends, protecting the island, Freedom. Eren let his revenge go.
David’s life wasn’t about revenge. It was about being remembered because in the end of the cyberpunk universe you want to be remembered no matter what that’s why some people chase to be a legend in that universe. And also being stronger, that’s why David packed himself with a lot of chrome
And I watched an anime and I didn’t see the group person who hired that group was killed or found by David
I think one difference could just be "experience with being screwed over by the system". David makes a lot of sense when framed as someone who has nothing to lose, who is suicidal, and who is hopeless, due to economic forces beyond his control. Even as a "badass" cyberpunk, he can't truly effect the change he wants to, and can only struggle until he dies (or at least, that is his viewpoint). Poverty generates that sort of hopelessness, as does to a lesser extent being screwed over forces outside your control.
Oshi no Ko's tragedy is much more digestible because it's unjust no matter what the "system" is like. We get that somebody killing somebody else is really traumatizing without going through it, while being more...upset at the systems that control our lives and render us helpless is only really more understandable through having that experience.
see... I'm coming directly off of watching Vinland Saga, up to the point where it is now (episode 17) and to me, the white hot burning core of a revenge narrative, is actually pure love. love, and then grief.
in order to tell a compelling revenge story, you have to craft a compelling tragedy. and in Vinland Saga, I think that is achieved gorgeously.
I'm about to drop spoilers for Vinland Saga, so if you haven't seen it, I encourage you to do that before reading anything else I've typed. it's a really good story, it deserves your time and attention, I say this because I care, and I want as many people as possible to let it affect them on it's terms, the way the story intends.
you would think that Vinland Saga begins with a death... but really, it begins with a life. Thors is a character who, in a very short amount of time, gives us a deep sense of his own identity and ideology. and that becomes the lynchpin to every other thing that happens in the story, because what Thors believes is the hardest possible thing to think in a world like this.
Thors was a viking warrior. he fought, bloody and brutal, on the battlefield. this is the way that men in his culture are taught to be... it's how they measure their worth, and Thors was legendarily the most proficient at it. but very early on in the story, when we see him as this heartbreakingly gentle village leader and father, he says something to his young son that belies the true purpose of the entire narrative.
"you don't have enemies. nobody has enemies."
at first, it seems like a flowery yet impossible sentiment... and Thors tells this to six year old Thorfinn, his son who clearly isn't old enough to understand it, and then is killed before he has the chance to elaborate. and from that point forward, everything else in the story is set up to show how hard it is to think that these words are true. and then, to say it anyway.
this perspective is simultaneously the most difficult conclusion to arrive at, the most challenging to maintain, and the most satisfying to see validated, all at once. and as the various conflicts and trials of the narrative move and evolve around our characters, this one statement keeps reverberating through it. this statement is everything. Thors knew the truth right from the start. the story gives us the answer at the beginning, then backtracks and tests it in every way possible.
when Thorfinn stows away on the ship carrying his father's murderer, you're aware of the power imbalance that exists here. Askeladd, the man in question, is an experienced warrior, and his assignment to kill Thors wasn't even supposed to be anything personal. but what means nothing to one, will mean everything to another. and as Thorfinn grows up, and gains power while surrounded by violence, and steeped in rage... the gap between them lessens, and you watch as Thorfinn strives to reach the goal of matching Askeladd. he's becoming something repulsive to his own mind, and the perspective of his father disappears from him entirely. you watch Thorfinn fail to keep this important core piece of his father alive in the world somehow, and if you were hoping for catharsis, it begs the question... what would that look like at this point?
you can tell that Thorfinn considers the depth of his anger to be an expression of the depth of his love for his father... but the truth is, his anger doesn't get him any closer to that. in fact, Thors only becomes more and more distant this way. Thorfinn's anger is more about his own frustration... he can't stand that Askeladd is allowed to just keep getting away with this. but why did he love his father so much in the first place? what rendered Thors into that warm, loving person that Thorfinn misses this much? how has Thorfinn ended up so far away from something so valuable, with not a single comfort to his name? why is he torturing himself like this? retribution won't make anything about this situation better... there is no relief at the end of this road. and along the path, Thorfinn continuously engages in violence that far surpasses what was done to him. he does it dispassionately, with his eyes fixated only on his own goal. the hypocrisy of it all is inescapably evident. and Thorfinn isn't the only one.
other warriors have things that they care about too. Askeladd himself has a cause that he is eventually willing to risk everything for. the only way to avoid hypocrisy is to love nothing, and forfeit your right to grief. and if that is unachievable, then you _must_ know that your misdeeds will inevitably lead to the destruction of something you once held dear, and you'll have no one to blame but yourself. you cannot be the villain in someone else's tragedy and expect to come away clean. you cannot protect anything by wreaking havoc against others. they will hate you for it, and you won't have the right to demand that the cycle of violence stop before it reaches your doorstep. *you don't have enemies. nobody has enemies.* this may not manifest as truth all on its own... but a truly strong person is the one who decides, out of pure determination, to _make_ it true for himself, and maintain it rigorously, no matter what. Thors knew. he always knew. but the tragedy of Thors is not only the relentless kindness that must exist in a man who has come to this conclusion, or the way he was taken out of a world that desperately needed to learn what he knew... but also, he died before he was able to properly communicate this belief to his beloved son, who now has to suffer through the horrors that teach lessons like these the hard way.
more than just revenge, Vinland Saga is about the grieving process, and how to overcome it. how to decide what you want your life to be full of, and how to work toward that goal. the hardest thing you could ever do, is nurture something fragile, and help it thrive in a world where you know the cruelty that people are sometimes capable of. peace isn't just some random phenomenon... it's a decision. Thors literally picked the toughest and most worthy fight of all. and honestly... you'll miss him. you feel his absence, and it does hurt. but turning that pain into anger only kills him more thoroughly... and ultimately, Thorfinn has always been just a grieving child who wants his dad back.
Sorry I don't want spoilers so I didn't read most of the comment, but YES the top lines are exactly the point I was trying to cover with this video
@@JustTobyK that's entirely fair... I really hope you enjoy it when you get to it!
Vinland Saga is stupid. Thorfinn somehow didn’t take revenge but did the biddings of his fathers killer and then becomes a pacifist
@@103ivd
[Vinland Saga spoilers ahead]
the point of Vinland Saga is that pacifism is hard. it's literally the hardest fight you could ever choose, especially in a society where violence is the norm. Thors chose it anyway, and he tells us this in the very beginning. but just being told doesn't really explain why a man would choose this.
when Thors dies, Thorfinn is left without that answer. so Thorfinn chooses the opposite, and we watch, as he has a really bad time. literally, choosing violence never brings him an ounce of joy. through hatred, through pain, through frustration, Thorfinn indulges in the base impulse that seems like it would make sense. revenge is an impulse that is easy to gravitate towards. no one is special for choosing it. that is weakness.
it takes Thorfinn all of the first season to realize that his fight got him nowhere. what does he _actually want?_ was it this? Askeladd is dead. is this what he wanted?
the truth is that Thorfinn was a grieving child, and he wanted his father back. but so far, he hasn't really considered what it was that he loved about his father. what he really missed.
it is easy to give in to frustration and lash out in anger. it is hard to dedicate yourself to the protection of something fragile, in a world where violence is easy. but when Thors decided to do it anyway, he became the man that Thorfinn misses so much. and now, Thorfinn has the chance to become someone just as valuable to the world.
Vinland Saga knows what it's doing.
@@kamuyking551 it’s a typical poorly written revenge story that amounts to nothing. Thorfinn becomes a copy of thors within a single arc eventho he spent his childhood and teen years with askeladd and his men. He somehow becomes a thors knock off with no original character traits eventho askeladd was more of a father figure to him and he has more memories of askeladd in the manga. I just don’t get how people think his character makes sense, wants revenge but doesn’t take it cause he somehow cares about honor after his father got killed in cold blood infront of him , but then he thinks it’s honorable doing the biddings and pillage villages for his fathers killer for 11 years. I just don’t get how he couldn’t get his revenge, it’s poorly written.
There wasn't any single villain is Edgerunners.. the whole Nightcity is the villain
Revenge plots are arguably my favourite type of story,thanks to so many games and movies.
The Punisher helped BIG TIME when it came to that specific type of story X)
Thank you for marking the segments I havent watched Oshi no ko and dont want to get spoiled.
Who can get angry at a revenge plot for Edgerunner? Who was David gonna gonna go after to avenge his mom? The goons or the government?😂
When i watched the intro to this video i was confused as to why Cyberpunk was included in a talk about "Revenge" stories. And now i can properly say that i can answer for you why you didn't see Cyberpunk as a good revenge story...
Because it isn't a story about revenge. Cyberpunk has no sole thing to point a finger at for Gloria's death, it wasn't about David's anger or who killed her, it is a story about a Kid forced into a lose lose scenario by a corrupt corporate infostructure that allowed injustice against the disenfranchised like David's mom, and the moral of the story is a far broader one that stems from the fact that none of this would have come to past if medical care simply was affordable and kept Gloria alive, if society cared more for it's people. It's a story about tragedy, not revenge. David didn't want revenge, even if he was angry. He just wanted to get away, go to the moon with Lucy which they couldn't do cause their upbringing and the corruption the city was bathed in forced them to choose a broken life which the edgerunners all were pushed to do like David, and the city in the end took his new family too as a statistic. You don't feel any satisfaction or think of the villains are as complex because neither Faraday nor Adam had anything to do with Gloria's death because you failed to understand that this wasn't about revenge. No amount of David "not giving in to his anger" would change that he was left with no options after his mom died, what was he SUPPOSED to do? It wasn't in his control. Cyberpunk doesn't belong in this video.
The same applies to Aot too. Eren didn't choose to be a mass murderer just to satisfy his revenge, just because he thought it would be fun to do. AOT stopped being about revenge for Eren in season 3 and now it's about his rights, his people's rights. No amount of moral soul searching or understanding that revenge is inherently wrong will change the fact that the outside world wants Eren and his people dead. And if he doesn't want to die stripped of his inherent rights to the world he was born into he would have to fight back, Kill. No amount of self love will change the fact that the outside world in aot wants to eradicate paradise and will if they could, with the only thing standing in the way of that being the rumbling. Yes. it's wrong and evil but he had no choice because the world, filled with it's hatred and evil for people they didn't know left him none, consequences of their own that blew so large that now they have no choice but to stare it in the eye. Another story about tragedy.
I think cyberpunk is different. As it's less about revenge (personally i didn''t see the revenge aspect), as in the other stories it is the drive for some characters (like aqua and eren), david's is more of him believing he is special (which he is) which causes him to think that he is unstoppable, (SPOILERS AHEAD) at first it looks like that, fun time with the group and having a father like figure of Maine, then he has his slow romance with Lucy, but then everything starts to go downhill, rebeccas brother dies, Maine and Dorio die. David tries to replace Maine in the community and become big, like Maine would want to be, while Lucy goes on hunts to have David not become arasaka's toy. Which he does as the only way he see's and is "told" by lucy that it's the only thing to save everyone. The idea of David's story doesn't have much to do with revenge.
also commenting for the algorithm, you deserve so many more subs
Ya’ll are real ones. This action is so unnecessary, but so nice of you
@@JustTobyK With just 1k subs you're already doing so amazing, and I can't wait to see what you can do with the support of the audience you deserve to have. You're going to be huge some day ❤️❤️
I disagree I fully associate with David’s rage for everything. David isn’t going out to kill anyone, he’s angry at the system and world that he lives in
I honestly find calling Berserk a revenge story insulting. It is a story about struggle
Aot is also a story of immense struggle, people correlate these two categories amd it can be used togather
In my opinion bad people gets what's coming for then is satisfying.
Great video! I think the fact that David never has an emotional response is the point of Edgerunners - he's chasing this macho fantasy, this toxic masculinity that he comes to wear as a shroud for his grief. He never shows anything but anger because it'd be giving in to weakness in a world that goes for the throat
Yeah, I guess that kind of world is too cynical for my taste
I would say that David is just so tired of the world he lives in . Living in a terrible city and in even more horrible world. Where his only hope is to become a corporate slave. He doesn't show emotions because what would be the point it wouldnt change anything. He still going to have to get up everyday and slave away so he can become a cog in some mega corps machine. He isn't necessarily chasing a macho fantasy but more a fantasy where he is free from the burden of the world ie going to the moon.
@@JustTobyK that is the entire cyberpunk genre my gamer. It is a wholly cynical rejection of the idea that technological advancement is this amazing saviour of humanity, taking the much more prophetic stance that it's just going to expand the wealth gap, and then exploring the stories in that resulting dystopia.
"its fictional why should i care" then rants about the storytelling... i feel like this is one of those cases where u watched an anime but criticized it the entire time and didnt immerse yourself or let your self actually enjoy the story therefore you didnt like the story.
OSHI NO KO WILL LIVE UP TO THE FIRST EPISODE TRUST THIS WHOLE SERIES IS SO AMAZING YOU HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT. The series will hint at things that we will eventually miss, also the fact that both main characters aqua and ruby are amazingly and insanely written you will see small bits and pieces of both falling apart as the series progresses also I wouldn't call OSHI no KO a revenge story entirely
I saw all the comments about the Edgerunners, I'm glad you saw it isn't about revenge. But what really made me iffy about this video was the way you spoke about Berserk. It made sense then, that you saw Edgerunners as a revenge story. But even Attack on Titan, they evolve so much beyond that. Let me explain:
With Berserk, you say Guts is FULL ON STOIC and don't express ANY emotions. Which is factually wrong. He acts like an asshole, but if you pay attention to the panels, you can see that's a façade with cracks on it. On the first chapter, sure, he doesn't even show care for Puck. Who literally closed his wounds and he said to his face "I don't care if you live or die", and the lil guy legit get hurt by his words. But on the next chapters, even before the Golden age, you see cracks. On the Wagon for example. You see him gleefully killing the dead. But as soon as a character shows up, he gets shocked. To the point where it even gets a hit in. Even when he strikes back and kills the character, there's no epicness, there's no flair. It's not this gore fest with his other kills. It's distant, dull, mute. And he even barfs after it. It shocked him. After that, there's another moment, he say some nasty things to a child, literally tells her to kill herself. And even as she spew hate back to him, he says 'bring it on'. But soon after that, as soon as he is out of view, he starts crying. Puck can glance into his emotions so the lil guy KNOWS he is not okay with what he is doing. It makes more obvious after you have the Golden Age for context, but the hints that he isn't this edgelord are there if you're receptive to the details.
Attack on Titan too, it starts with Eren yelling "IMMA KILL ALL TITANS", but it evolves into so, so much more. A full out war, what even means to be free, the fate of the very humanity of this anime's world... I honestly think what miffs me more about it, it's more that you said "It's a Revenge Story" and I automatically associated that for you, that was all it is.
I never saw edgerunners as a revenge story, for me it was more of exactly what cyberpunk is. the story of a person who lives fast and dies young. Night city is a place with no happy endings.
Literally every single anime you listed isn't trying to necessarily promote and defend the idea of revenge. Each of those characters are genuinely suffering by holding onto their hatred and murderous intent.
Let's break it down
1. Guts abandons Casca in her time of need so he can kill every demon until he finds Griffith. He comes to regret this, and as he grows closer with his party he starts focusing on their safety above all us.
2. David from Edgerunners isn't even on an revenge path, he doesn't have any grand plan, he's just feeling angry and rebellious as a youth, since he lost the one person that meant the world to him. He eventually grows accustomed to his criminal life and this eventually leads to his tragic death. If he chose to run away sooner with Lucy he might have had a happy end, but he couldn't do it.
3. Aqua wasn't filled with rage until he learned Ai's true killer, his own father, escaped justice. Even still, throughout the series, we see that Aqua's focus on revenge is very unhealthy. And we know that the show is implying Aqua's quest for revenge is the wrong answer since his black star in his eyes reflect the black stars in his father's eyes. He's not following the path of Ai, he's following the psychopathic path of his father. Clearly hinting at the fact that Aqua needs to develop and move on.
4. Eren's vengeful spirit metastasized until it eventually leads to the deaths of billions of people, and his own loved one kills him. Clearly this is a cautionary tale. (that being said the ending could have been handled better)
I believe that Davids revenge was used as a method to convey that your anger shouldn't get in the way of your life's path, hence how he was eventually killed by his overuse of implants and his constant pursuit of revenge, ruining his potentially perfect future with Lucy. It's a story about the tragedy of revenge, not the completion of it or character growth from it that is shown in a lot of other revenge anime. I understood Edgerunners as a show intended to highlight the futility of revenge, and how easily it can ruin a life if taken too far.
Edit: how on earth do you only have 1k subs this is top tier essay vid content
Another best written revenge plots is Vinland Saga, instead of focusing on the revenge narrative, we are shown how that revenge destroyed the mc's life and the damage that was done to him, the feeling of guilt and trauma embodied him, now, in season 2 we witness how he can move on now with his own 2 feet without having another person as his own purpose, we will witness how an empty man after losing his purpose, finds himself
This was such a captivating perspective. This video showed up at the perfect time since I just finished rereading probably my first taste of a revenge story. I used to not be able to see the appeal in revenge plots, but after reading the Kuroshitsuji manga I've learned to come around. The Kuroshitsuji manga (not the anime) is, in my opinion, one of the more underrated revenge stories. It was published around 2006 so it's not as prevalent in this discussion any more, so I thought I would bring it up. Funny enough, it would probably be more associated with the anger/stoic route yet many of us, or at least me as a manga reader, find myself rooting for Kuroshitsuji's almost villain like protagonists. Kuroshitsuji has this interesting way of convincing us that our borderline evil protagonist duo is in the right. I don't know if Ciel Phantomhive's story is more like Cyberpunk or the others mentioned (since I have yet to watch or read some of these) or is unique, but I find myself enjoying it heavily. Kuroshitsuji's is very iconic and kind of takes a very interesting and creative route. It definitely needs to be given more credit whether it is criticism or praise for how Toboso writes it! Check it out if you want (specifically the manga because the anime is quite confusing unfortunately)!
i notice that people have a hard time trying to care for characters which i don't really understand. i really like the way you explained your views on revenge stories, and while it's still hard for me to understand the sentiment of not caring about characters just cause they're fictional, i do understand your points.
Edgerunners was never a revenge story...
His mom's death was just the straw that broke the camel's back that lead him to give up and take the life of crime.
I disagree with alot of the takes in this video I don’t consider Edgerunners a revenge tale because David has no grand ambition of destroying the system or anything he’s just trying to survive in a capitalist dystopia. In regards to berserk that series harshly and blatantly criticizes gut’s revenge quest and is shown to be something that’s bad for Guts and the people around him. Reread chapter 129 of berserk for an example of the series blatantly criticizing Gut’s revenge quest. Also I think a big part of you not vibing with edgerunners was not understanding the sociopolitical subtext inherent to all stories within the cyber punk genre
Lelouch: I have unresolved anger towards my father.
Charles: Oh shut, your childhood was wonderful, Hell you're the only one of my children I actually like.
i will not watch the video but berserk is so much more than a revenge story
As a manga reader who read oshi no ko, its a good revenge story, unlike cyberpunk (not saying that cyberpunk sucks). Aqua doesn't go to physical contact with the villain even though he knows his name and where he works, but he just steps back and messes with him psychologically, unlike david who goes in guns a blazing.
edgerunners isn't even a revenge story. Not sure what this guy is on about.
@@N0noy1989 well yeah it isn't, but it got some elements. So you can count that as a part of the story but not entirely a genre even if theres barely an aspect shown about revenge. Atleast there's an reason for revenge even if its ignored most of the time.
Edgerunners is not a revenge story
David's story is not even about revenge, he and his mother accidentally got into a gang fight, then his mother can't get enough treatment because of the terrible healthcare system. When the rich kid mock him, he got angry and just need to vent out his rage to the bully in his school. All of the bad things happened to him are stemmed from social problems, which is kinda hard to revenge on or even realise it in the first place. After that arc, he just got involved with criminal gang and barely care about revenging, just guilt over not being able to save his mother, because David is in fact a very good guy, he only rage a handful of time like after his mother dead or got into cyber hallucination
You really understood edgerunners in the completely worst brain dead way possible but alright ig
It's wrong to have cyberpunk in this video. Cyberpunk describes the inevitable reality of trying to make dreams come true, to reach a "happy ending" inside a world that fundamentally believes human lives have no value outside of the profit they can produce. David isnt trying to get revenge from arisaka, he just realises that as long as both him and arisaka exist he can never have peace. David only seeks revenge momentarily, his character is not at all driven by it. Additionally the whole toxic "im built diff" mentality of david satirises the toxic neoliberal/capitalist "great men can change the world" cliche cause in reality no one person, no matter how special they are, can "win" within a society like cyberpunk's. Cyberpunk is generally very political (you can look up the creator's views if you'd like to see more) and if it has to have a central theme, it'd probably be that anarchocapitalism and human hapiness can never coexist. Revenge has practically nothing to do with this anime.
Revenge stories are never about only revenge. When they are, they're hollow.
I don't think this guy gets it, Cyberpunk isn't about revenge.
I’m just angry, idk why, but I’ve always been like that at a young age due to my sensitivity
Hearing that people are hardly that angry is so foreign to me
Well,sometime its hormonal,you have too much or not enough of certain thing and it leave a weird burning feeling of anger...i mean specificaly if you just natural feel angry for no reason at all.If its not that, i guess its time for you to ask yourself the big question...unless you like being angry?Also feel free to ignore this if you find it annoying,am just saying that because i used to be like that a little.
I dont know, people are just different, im not angry all the time like you, but i almost always get angry in situations where other people get sad. It's kinda strange.
Me too man i m a really angry person but kinda in a passionate way which benifits me most of the time , it helps me get my shit done faster
Raised by a single mother?
@@beastvicious8672 nah man some people are like that belive me it's built in blood
I love revenge so much.
The only time revenge plots fail for me is when the mc decides to give up their revenge, to try and be a better person, to forgive them.
I dont want better, i dont want forgiveness, i want petty, i want bitter, i want anger and i want them to leave havinh completed their goal of revenge.
Cringe
@@nek729 yes you are
@@nek729 yes you are
Yeah it's fun when Mc gets their revenge the whole " if you kill him you aren't better then him" is a bad incentive to stop revenge, it's more cringe whne MC give up after sacrificing lives
@@exiledkenkaneki701 you don't need a incentive to stop revenge. There is no incentive to take revenge in the first place.
Never Forget .....The Eclipse ...Never Forget and Never Forgive
Cyberpunk is a tragedy, not a revenge story at all. It's like you're calling Clannad AS a revenge plot.
I'm making a revenge style story and the main character is one who absolutely refuses to lose his honor. There will be a greater focus on what honor means. And the events of the narrative will question whether or not one should live by such a code of honor if it only brings them misery. It'll question why he clings so desperately to it, what it's even good for, what it will accomplish. Is it a code of honor? or is it just being stubborn? These are all questions that will challenge the main character's morals. The quest for vengeance and to never abandon the way of the sword are embedded in this code of honor.
Perhaps the reason he clings so desperately to this code of honor is because he feels that it's all he has left. Leading his friends to their deaths leaves an emotional toll, being left with nothing but a broken sword leaves him feeling powerless. He feels guilty, so perhaps he seeks both redemption and retribution through this code of honor? And he fears that losing this code of honor will turn him into exactly the type of person his enemy is.
Akuma's vengeance is both out of rage as well as his sense of honor. He believes it would be honorable to kill her in the memory of his friends, and to calm his own rage. His rage and his honor will definitely clash with one another throughout the narrative, but this is the only time they both align.
Cyberpunk wasn't a revenge story...
David's mom died in a random act of violence by thugs who never show up again. David spends most of the show just trying to get by. The closest thing to revenge is when he beats up that bully at school.
Na bro revenge anime isn't for YOU that's it. The thing is no matter what a writer does to improve his book/manga/comic, so people will find faults.
Berserk isn’t just a revenge manga it’s a story about a person and his struggles
It disturbs me that u don’t think berserk is one of the best story ever written
Im still so confused how people think any of the villians in Edgerunners are meant to be villians. Its kinda obvious they arent, they are plot devices to move the story forward. The world of Night City is the villian, David is lashing out at a world that he cant defeat but is trying his best to make a name for himself. Probably why so many people can relate to the depressing atmosphere of the world given that Cyberpunk is a genere built on a crituiqe of the world
Its kind of funny how spectacularly this guy missed the point of most of these anime and just grouped them as "revenge stories", none of them from Berserk or even AoT are "revenge stories", revenge is merely a theme that becomes prominent on occasion and even then usually falls away. OnK from what I've seen is the closest and even then there are more major themes than revenge lol and making this video with a segment on it when there was one episode out is crazy. It's not that you weren't "angry enough", it's that you didn't understand the themes lul
You don’t vibe with edgerunners because you could never understand the complexities of being a Mexican in Cali
This a joke don’t take it seriously
I can't speak for Edgerunner or Oshi no Ko, since I haven't watched them, but my interpretation doesn't exactly align with yours for Eren and Guts.
Eren's conversation with Reiner in the basement confirms that Eren isn't doing this for revenge. As the story progresses, we eventually find out that he's doing this for his freedom, as seen in the "this is freedom" scene, and the lives of his friends, as seen multiple times where he mentions he says he wants them to live long lives. What makes Eren compelling to me is learning what freedom means to him and how far he would go to achieve this.
While I'm sure Guts wanted revenge at first, I believe his character arc is about his personal trauma and how he continues to persevere. As the story progresses, we see him slowly deal with his anger and starts opening up to other people. What makes Guts compelling to me is his indomitable human spirit. Everything was taken away from him, and yet he chooses to survive.
Overall, I feel that Aot and Berserk aren't really watched for their "Revenge" plotlines. There are more compelling aspects to both these stories that certainly don't need the watcher to be angry.
There ia no revenge in cyberpunk edgerunner, the story is just being a story, the show shines its best at animation quality, soundtracks and fast but perfect pacing. Don’t judge a fish by its capability of flying in the air
My thing with Berserk is that whatever Guts does to Griffith it won't break/ change Griffith. I don't think even killing him will get rid of him for good
I feel like in edgerunners at least, it would make sense ig? Different people deal with sadness and grief... well, differently. Davis is just the type to find a way to deal with it for most of the series he doesn't even have enough hate to target arasaka itself. I feel like he's just running away from it all.
In general the story of edgerunners was more about the characters in a fucked up city. And David struggled with the fundamentals of actually being a character. He was led around after his mothers death. An aimless kid forced into school because that was the only way up with a mother that provided for him until one little accident forced her body to shutdown. After her death.... same thing
An aimless kid forced into being an edgerunner because that was the only way up with a group of similar/like-minded people to give him company.
All he did was follow the dreams of others. Be it his mentor's dream, Lucy's dream and at the very end he even got to "the top of arasaka tower" like his mother told him to.
He is like any young teenager. Too confused about the world around him, not knowing how to really live.
It really resonates with me because i too was... probably still am like that. And i believe the heart of the matter here is that David...
LACKS a goal for himself.
No dream to strive for, only dreams of other people kept him going.
Just my take on edgerunners though.
you should watch vinland saga dude, season 2 explores what happens after your revenge is done and the mental toll it entails
You really dont need anger to enjoy Revenge stories. Often Revenge stories show the Anger to be a non-solution to the problem, entertaining, getting you to think but not the end goal or the height of the storyline.
"I'm not angry enough for revenge stories." Yeah, you tell that to Vargas who has to watch an Apostle eat his wife, his son, and his legs.
david never wanted revenge?????
"Anger gives motivation without purpose." -master yi
Sometimes you need to kill someone.
Vinland Saga I’d say does the revenge story just as well,
(Not sure if you’ve read it or not so spoilers)
In its approach to never actually achieving revenge watching Thorfinn fail before your eyes and his goal dies before he achieves it, he never had a plan beyond his rage falling into emptiness of depression and has to build himself back from scratch via the farm
Similar to Berserk but unlike Thorfinn, Guts never gets a break and still has the chance to kill Griffith in the story
From there Thorfinn has to evolve beyond his original goal into fighting for a greater purpose in his pursuit towards becoming a True Warrior
Wanting to benefit as many people and not being selfish in his desires
Haha yeah understandable!
Also me: *Boots up Cyberpunk 2077 just to kill Adam Smasher*
With Oshi no Ko Aqua's revenge plot stem from the person AI who was his mother and his only reason for living be taken away in abrupt fashion. Therefore, the revenge feels justified since all anger is rooted in sadness, pain and feelings of weakness as an attempt to fight back in a situation you do not know how to overcome. In comparison with cyberpunk edge runners , The stylisation of how David Martinez Lives his life parallels the mindset of The world is shit and corrupt so I am going to try and get out of it and be the "best" with no prior plan which weirdly parallels a lot of people in real life throwing themselves at massive problems without understanding them and getting absolutely bodied by the same problems they did not think about. For one who takes what you love or to deceive you for the worst. If you live by not adding knowledge to the way you feel to create something useful to you. It will always lead in recklessness and an early grave. In addition, I am angry a lot -> It comes from: dissatisfaction, betrayal ,lies and assumptions
I'm a sucker for revenge stories. Morally i'm all for it, i love the concept and yet, my favorite anime/manga to have tackled revenge has got to be Vinland Saga
*"Revenge is a fool's game."*
- Arthur Morgan.
Cyberpunk is a punk story, hence the angst and being angry with the world. On a side note, and so i am not saying what most people are saying, Cyberpunk isnt a revenge story or at least it is not the main focus (mainly since the one who he is angry at isn't a person, its Night City itself)
Also, a fun fact, David repeats, he's just "built different" is based on the idea of someone falling from a building and saying "so far so good" before facing their cruel end
I would argue revenge isn’t the focus of Edgerunners. It isn’t the mega corps that take his mother from him, it’s not the mega corps that kick him out of his house, it’s night city itself. A city that forces the poor to disregard their morals in order to survive. Though influenced by the mega corps it’s the systems in the city that David rebels against. It’s a story about trying and tragically failing to take down an extreme capitalist system. I would argue that David doesn’t want revenge but justice and equality. In the end however, David dies just like those before him, failing to make any real impact, killed by the system. He also dies trying to fulfil another’s dream just like he was doing with his mother