I'm preparing to reload for a new Marlin 1894, 44 magnum. I consulted with one of the most respected bullet makers/sellers who also has family that are high level shooters at the national level. I was looking to choose a cast lead bullet for my new lever action because it cycles poorly with the jacketed hollowpoints. He suggested slugging the barrel to find the diameter of the bore since they do vary even in factory guns. I knew that having the bullet that matches the bore size properly enhances accuracy. I'm using them for a purpose that doesn't need high velocity but good accuracy. He told me at the beginning not to use a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die on these as it would swage the bullet back to a size smaller than than appropriate for the bore if for instance the correct bullet diameter was .432 the LFCD would swage the cast bullet back to something less than the original goal of .432 which would be most accurate in my barrel which measured .4312 when slugged. Standard cast bullet diameter for the cast lead bullet is .430, which is .001 more than a jacketed bullet standard size. The idea is to have a bullet .001 larger than the bore diameter which with a cast lead bullet allows for better grip of the rifling on the bullet and more consistent velocities and improved accuracy. He recommended a Redding Profile crimp die which doesn't post size the cartridge as does the Lee because when pulling the bullet out of the Lee die it passes through the carbide ring toward the bottom of the die a second time, sizing the entire cartridge again. In effect, you could start with the perfect diameter bullet, ie .432 and after crimping (and unintentionally post sizing), you would be left with a bullet that is no longer .001 larger than bore but .001 smaller. Clearly the bullet would shoot but not with the same accuracy potential of the original .432 diameter bullet. I love the Lee die, especially in my 9mm and 38 super applications because the first consideration for these is total reliability and reasonable accuracy 2nd. I don't see a reduction in accuracy with these primarily because they are used inside of 50 yds at most and typically 10 to 25 yards. I think the application dictates which of these are best and in my case, I will use both to achieve what I need in each individual cartridge.
I had problems with my Lee 356-95-RF dropping at .360. When ran through the Lee FCD it swagged the bullet down and pushed the lead up and out of the case making them look like mushrooms. Luckily I found this problem while making dummy rounds so no problem. Not using the die and just the seating die worked until I bought a sizing die then the FCD worked great. Great video FC.
I was aware of both sides of the controversy, you are the first person I have seen do a numerical evaluation of an extreme case. Thanks. This answers actual questions I have had. in .45 ACP even with first sizing, I was having some intermittent issues with maybe 3/100 loaded rounds being tough to chamber/extract. I considered that inappropriate ammo to share with friends. FCD cured it. Same for .380 acp. I simply couldn't make ammo which would reliably feed without FCD using bullets sized to .356.
+GunFun ZS -- The whole key is our FCDs should only do minor corrections of our ammo as the crimps are made. If the action is major, we are losing neck tension.. Lee designed the idea of TL molds - load 'em without sizing - and let the FCD take care of anything that might cause problems with the ammo functioning - an integrated approach. But there are definitely limits to what the FCD can do... Thanks to Lee - the integrated approach works very well as you and I (and many others) have found... Good shootin' and Good dancin' to ya... FC
When you get a load dialed up I recommend trying various levels of crimp even in bolt action. That minuscule amount of time the crimps holds the bullet can help SD and accuracy.
Actually the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die (or CFCD for short) was never designed for cast lead bullets. It was designed for jacketed bullets, specifically for correcting when somebody seated a bullet wrong creating a bulge on one side of the finished cartridge. When shooting cast lead bullets that you're casting yourself, the best way to go about knowing what to size the bullets is to slug the barrel, that is, take a round ball slightly larger than the bore size of the pistol made of pure lead, and push it down the barrel of the pistol. In the case of a revolver you would want to do that, as well as slug each of the cylinders. When shooting cast bullets you want to size the bullets .001 larger than the diameter of the largest slug. For most pistols shooting the .45ACP cartridge the bullets usually wind up sizing to .452 but it's not unheard of for some to need bullets sized to .453. For the .45Colt cartridge they normally need bullets sized to .454 although some Rugers have barrels / cylinders that can go down to .452 By making your bullets larger than the bore of your pistol to start with you reduce the chances of leading, increase the chances of getting better groups, the gun is easier to clean too. Getting back to the Lee CFCD, if you're loading fairly soft almost pure lead bullets (say a 30:1 lead/tin alloy) sized fairly large (.454 or .455 for 45Colt) and you're using brass that's been shot a dozen times or so, and so is getting work hardened and brittle, then you run your finished cartridge thru the CFCD, you're going to wind up having a bullet that's been sized down from where YOU want it to be, and because the soft lead alloy doesn't bounce back, you will loose neck tension. Lee for whatever reason actually has two different products that they call the Factory Crimp Die, one is the Carbide one which is for pistol calibers, and the other is the one they make for rife calibers. The rifle version uses a collet like device to really clamp down on only a very small amount of the bullet, just enough to make sure the brass case gets into the crimp groove of the bullet, or if there isn't a crimp groove on the bullet, this die will make one, that's how strong it clamps down! Now normally they only make this version of the die in rifle calibers, but folks that reload the 45Colt are in luck, as that's the only straight wall pistol caliber that Lee makes their rifle style FCD! And just now as I finished typing in this whole long comment I glance over at the video selection on the right side of my screen to see your video showing what looks like 2 of the carbide FCDs and the 45Colt rifle style FCD! so I'm going to go watch it right now...
I've had great and consistent results with the Lee Carbide FCD in 9, 38super, 40, 10, 45, 45LC, 45 Casull, 5.56, 6.8spc, 308, and 30-06. Neck tension tests in both handgun and rifle are very consistent. I also use the Lee Carbide U dies in all handgun calibers.
I had problems with 9mm and Taurus G3. It undersized the case just enough to headspace wrong and I got light strikes. Went back to crimping 9mm Lee bullet seater. FCD works great on. 38 and 357.
I am a fan of the Lee FC die...and size all my lead cast bullets...Nice thumb! You knew I would catch that!.......... Looks like at 14:00 the Buckshot coated Alox is drying and a loading Video is next!
+gman77gas -- That is really impressive that you noticed that...!! Amazing... I couldn't frame that shot to avoid getting that in there. But you are also clairvoyant, that video should be up in the next couple of days... Best to ya, Gary, FC Steve
Lee has two types of Factory Crimp Dies, one that is carbide style and one that is collet styled. The Carbide sizer part straightens the cases back up when the crimp part bulges the cases from the downward force of the die upon the case neck. The Collect Style crimp die does not apply downward pressure but rather inward pressure of which does not buckle the case creating a bulge that would then need ironing out. If this is true the carbide part of the die fixes what the downward pressure crimp part messes up, whereby I call it a gimmick of sorts because it does not really solve the problem, but rather patches it over. All that work hardening the brass is not good either. Better to just not cause an issue as apposed to patching it back up I would think. Again The Lee Collect Style crimp die never buckles the case whereby never needing to fix its own fuct-ups, as the downward forcing Lee Carbide Factory Style crimp dies do. Ergo with the Collect Style crimp dies there is never a need for the carbide ring, period. So if you see my point being Lee has the Collet Style crimp dies why would they sell a Carbide crimp die that messes up the brass only to turn around and solve its own issues, other than to act as if it is the crimp die of crimp dies of sort that everyone should have(?). That is why I call it a gimmick crimp die. Makes no sense when the Collet Style crimp die exist, right? Be sure and watch Lee's own videos on their Factory Carbide Style crimp dies: 1) th-cam.com/video/0rjlUH25DyM/w-d-xo.html And their Factory Collet Style crimp dies (of which they have both /roll and a taper types): 2) th-cam.com/video/vo7p4k36swI/w-d-xo.html
Most likely the Hornady brass is shorter because 225 FTX was properly loaded into that brass to get a proper crimp on the FTX cannelure. I had to trim .070 off my brass for the FTX making it to book spec.
One good way to to measure the max dia that the fcd will allow without swageing down the bullet is to run a fired case through the fcd (unsized and no bullet). Then measure the diameter of the case in the areas it contacts the bullet. Then measure the case wall thickness and subtract that from your case dia. It should give you a good number to work with if you plan on using oversized bullets. One tip is to do it with one of all the different brass/headstamps you have. Each brand may have slighty different case wall thicknesses. You could also do it with a bullet seated pull the bullet and measure but you will have to recycle those. Another trick ive been playing with is using the fcd as my sizing die because mine isnt as tight as the sizing die. It allows me to size my brass just enough to snugly fit the cylinder giving it a better seal when fired. Im still comparing how much it effects the accuracy but have noticed slightly tighter groups + higher velocity. Not much but a little.
You leave me sort of speechless.. I have always sized my cast bullets in a lube size Machine, therefore in the case a bullet being sized to say .452 it will be as round as the die made it. In the case of bullets that are shot as cast, they are only as round as they dropped from the mold. I feel that is where the irregularity and Bulges come from and the factory crimp die irons out that bulge.. Now,, The Barrel and chamber throat Know what size the bullet should be and will squeeze the Bullet down to size as the cartridge is fired so Minor irregularity isn't an issue. I choose to size my bullets and I don't have bulges in the cases that impede chambering in my firearms, The only time that has happened is when I was getting a bulge at the Bottom of the case and that was cleared up by switching shell holders. and again another Informative Video Cookie. You are a asset to the reloading community.
+Thorsaxe777 -- You recall us discussing this issue...videos can be spurred from anywhere and everywhere - again thanks for the impetus to do this one...it was fun to do...Had to dig out those old 45-70 bullets casted 30 years ago... Best to ya, FC
Wouldn't running that big of bullet up into the factory crimp die to swage the case cause extreme pressure because you essentially are compressing the case?
the only time I had an issue with the LFCD swaging cast bullets was with some loads I was working up in .40S&W. Specifically, the brand of brass I was using was slightly thicker and when passed through the die it squeezed the lead. Those particular loads leaded a bit, so I sorted out some thinner brass to load and the problem went away. I still think the LFCD is a great die, just have to pay attention to how the rounds feel when using it. If you have to use both hands to cycle the ram it's an indication the recipe needs adjustment lol. Great videos I like that you show all your results and edit sparingly.
+mky45lg -- Seems users of the FCD have determined the usual and proper feel for the die doing its work...if we get more than that, we are alerted that something is out of balance. Within the balance is where Richard Lee intended this die to work... Best to ya, FC
I know this is an old video (good one, too) but it seems to me a lot of the controversy is people assume the LFCD "Resizes" the case to the same dimensions as the sizing die. Did you ever measure the ID of the LFCD, compared to the ID of the resizing die? I bet the resizing die is smaller, with the LFCD only "resizing" if the case is beyond the maximum tolerance diameter. When I run a resized empty case back into the sizing die a second time, it always has a little bit of resistance, but almost all of my seated bullets run into the LFCD with no resistance at all until I reach the crimping groove. (I'm in a hotel right now and won;t be home to measure my dies for several days yet.)
hello Fc 45 lc , i use those lee pistol factorycrimpers most of the time ,although the rifle version works the best way for a crimp,And i said it before; a pistol lee factory crimper is a perfect tool .if you use uniformed cases (primerhole bevelling and trim lenght)And cases from the same lot.(because of the wallthickness and brasstype) .and thats only done/needed once on a batch (500 or 1000 cases),and you get especially on a progressive press a smooth operation and better accuracy.
+peteralexben -- Indeed, if we prep our pistol brass as we prep our rifle brass, we can get more uniform results. Not too many pistol shooters do that though as we need lots of ammo good for shorter range more than we need tack driving ammo at distance with our handguns. With our rifles 20 rounds will do (not 250-500 rounds). Most handgun shooters conclude that we don't need to do all that...but as you say, those that wish to do that should go ahead and do all that...Would be different if I could hold the x-ring at 50 yards one handed...then I'd want ammo that would group according to that standard. But if I was good enough to do that, the perfect score at Camp Perry would be in sight...and Winchester would give me all the match 148 WC ammo that I could use...that would be very nice indeed (hah!! - FC, the dreamer-- )... Best Regards, FC
+FortuneCookie45LC hello, The point I trying to make is this ,if you use differrent case`s , you get casewall thickness difference`s and elasticy of the case wall and that will result in more or less sizing of the bullet in the case,with the lee factory crimper.
+peteralexben -- Interesting, without realizing this - I was doing just that back in my PPC days - I bought 1000 round boxes of commercial reloads all reloaded with Winchester brass that had been loaded with factory 148 grain match wadcutters. I still have boxes and boxes of that Winchester brass 38s. It's really handy when I want to use uniform brass. Otherwise, for range shooting, I just use all my mixed stuff. That brass was all free and mighty fine to get... Have a great day, FC
I know this is late to the discussion, but it is about the crimp die. First the setup, just before COVID I bought a Taurus g3c and to break it in I planned to use up some of the cheap steel cased tula ammo I had stockpiled. I took it to the range, loaded a mag full and started shooting, after several rounds a round failed to fully chamber and jammed the pistol tight. After watching a video on TH-cam on how to clear that sort of jam I took the gun apart and tried rounds from that box and found about 20 percent would not chamber. I am guessing Taurus cuts their chambers smaller than my other 9mm which chambers tula rounds just fine. The question is, could I, or even should I run the tula rounds through my lee 9mm factory crimp die to see if that makes them more uniform? The Taurus loads and fires wwb 147 grain jhp just fine with no issues, which was my choice of carry loads for it. It just seems wasteful to use $32 a box ammo for breakin instead of the $7 a box ammo I have stored away.
Did they pull out easily with the inertia bullet puller? (That would be the test to see if the neck tension was compromised) They did seem to be a bit egg shaped in the diameters...
+HunterFisher 99 -- The 45 Colt and single action revolver is one heck of a combination - always has been. When you touch off those big 255 grain slugs at 875 fps, there's some real business there... Best to ya, FC
Dear Fortune Cookie: I have viewed at least two of your videos about the use of the Lee Factory Crimp Die. For the most part we are getting better machined cylinder chamber throats now, though I have heard that Colt has changed to .4525" which is about perfect for that round, I'll believe it when I actually see it. Colt began this situation when they changed their barrels from .454" to 452". The change was OK, but evidently they had lots of .45 Colt cylinders on hand with .454 up to .456, and rarely but present .457 Cylinder Throats. Clone manufacturers when they began to produce SAAs in .45 Colt, chambered the cylinders at first to nominal .454 dimensions. This is OK for most loading, we just simply sized for .454 and went happily on our way. The exception has always been with Colt Revolvers which were often found with throats of .456 and larger. I've been loading for the .45 Colt since I began shooting them as a 13 year old back in 1954. The only way I could get the revolvers with grossly oversize throats to shoot accurately was to size to .454 using 1-40 lead alloy, and using Blackpowder to slap the bullets in the butt and upset them to fit the chamber on firing. This procedure works well but relegates those revolvers with chamber throats with .456" and larger to use with Blackpowder only. This creates a problem only for those who don't know how to clean blackpowder fouling, or won't clean their spent cases and revolvers with a solvent made up largely of water. I used water soluble machinists oil until I discovered Ballistol mixed 1-10, I settled on this for Blackpowder cleaning, washed my cases and everything was OK. Early on, I could not afford a press, but our farm shop had an arbor press which I used with the old Lyman full length die with the punch rod for resizing revolver brass. I used the cylinders for testing reloaded ammunition just as you do, and at first tried to use the full length die to clean up the offending rounds, it didn't work, it ruined my ammunition. I settled on removing the de-capping pin on the neck sizing die in my 310 kit, and neck sizing every piece of loaded ammunition in this die, making sure I rubbed a little lube on the necks of the ammunition first. This worked perfectly and I used the method for years, often using the 310 dies in a press after I got one, eventually I broke down and got a 4 die Lyman pistol set and have used that set to load thousands of rounds with accuracy, I caution you that some, maybe even most 310 neck sizing dies are too tight for this procedure. I eventually traded that Colt with the grossly oversized chamber throats. Ruger, and Clone manufacturers of .45 Colt Chambered revolvers have cleaned up their acts, I don't know what Colt is doing, maybe they're still believing that we are still in the Blackpowder era, but I have heard that they very recently have seen the light and are cutting their chambers .4525-,453" like the rest of the industry does. FYI I now use the Lee dies and the factory crimp dies and have exceptionally uniform and accurate ammunition, I size to .453 (a custom die from Buffalo Armes), and only occasionally does a round need attention, in truth rarely does a round need attention. I do not even try to roll crimp anymore, I use that seating die to seat the bullet without a crimp then run the round into the factory crimp die, this procedure works fine. What to do about revolvers with grossly oversized chamber throats? Make a trade, find an extra cylinder of the correct dimensions, or go to soft alloys and Blackpowder not forgetting that one must clean with a water based solvent, and wash fired cases in hot soapy water. It is interesting observing reloaders bit by bit discovering what Elmer knew 60 years ago. If anyone has trouble with a revolver, the real solution is to find and read Sixguns by Elmer Keith, it will save a lot of frustration, The Old Man really knew his stuff, it was a rare privilege to have known him, we'll not see his like again. Merry Christmas to You and Yours Don Denison
Don Denison - That was a great comment..!! Elmer is as relevant today as he ever was. He didn't use gas checks because they simply weren't needed. And he did more with 20-1 and 16-1 alloy than we do with all the antimony and arsenic mixing and heat treating and age hardening stuff. He just shot what worked. His stuff works today as well as it ever did. My Virginian Dragoon 44 mag has chamber throats at .435" so I need bullets at .436" Well, no easy way to get bullets that oversized and if .430s are shot through those throats, leading is guaranteed - might get a couple of dozen good shots before leading degrades accuracy. So I just shoot a lot of jacketed through there, and the gun shoots fine with that. Your exploits with that Lyman 310 tong tool are the stuff of legend... Best to ya, and Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to ya..!! FC
Dear Fortune Cookie: A solution would be to find a new old stock cylinder in .357 Magnum, and have it rechambered to .44 Magnum to your specifications, I've heard of others using that solution for other revolvers whose cylinders were beyond hope of redemption, save the old cylinder for a Virginian Dragoon in .45 Colt that needs similar help.
Donald Denison - There was a commenter who said that Brownell's had some extra Virginian Dragoon cylinders at one time years ago...Fortunately, my Dragoon shoots fine with the heavier jacketed bullets, and even shooting cast for about a dozen shots actually shoots OK... Along with your comment, I'm sure a trip to a good gunsmith out in Nevada to have new cylinder work done would be the way to go...Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to ya..!! FC
Dear Fortune Cookie: One solution for your Virginian Dragoon if you really like it otherwise is to see if you can find one in .357, preferably one that is being sold cheap for some reason that the re chambering of the cylinder will clean up. I don't know if they were ever chambered in ..41 Mag, that should work well also. Then slug your bore, and have the chambers cut, and specify that the throats be .0005 larger than the slug that you get from your barrel. I have seen some Virginian Dragoons selling cheap at gun shows, worn, but the cylinders should be good, just check them out for wear in the critical areas, after all all you want is a cylinder smaller than the .44. Try also Jack First, Century, SARCO, and some of the chat forums. I once had a Virginian Dragoon, it was in .45 Colt, and would digest any load one could think of, it really liked a stiff load of 2400, and with solid head cases, would give the .44 Mag a run for it's money. I've got to go to Jackson tomorrow to do my shopping, an hour down , an hour back and three hours there more if I'm not lucky, it pretty much shoots the day, so I'll wish you and yours a Merry Christmas, may the Lord richly Bless you all. Sincerely Yours Don Denison
Donald Denison - Hope you had a very good trip and a great Christmas celebration as well. Problem with finding a used Virginian in a smaller caliber is that the gun might shoot well - but then it would not be a problem. But, tell you what, I'm going to check out some gun shows and see what I can scrape up...!! Happy New Year to you and yours, Don...FC Steve
Dear fortune cookie 45LC, I have a Henry Big boy in 45 colt. I loaded some swc cast bullets and had poor luck feeding so I got a LEE 6 CAV MOLD TL452-230-2R and had better luck, Isee the oal in my book is 1.60. I'm using 6 gr of titegroup and your 45 45 10 lube. I love the Henry and the 45colt cartridge do you have any quick advice you could share ? Ps love you channel !!
+Nick J -- Since the longitudinal axis is most important, I measure along the base to the nose direction. Unsized bullets are seldom perfectly round, but can be close. If bullets have been sized, one measurement is sufficient. (but care will have to be exercised to not have the lube throw off the reading). If not, I measure all around the bullet in at least 4 readings from different longitudinal aspects...Ususally, the readings are within .001 - .0015 so I'll go with the biggest reading. There is no set way - some casters measure at right angles to the long axis of the bullet, but then, you have to measure every driving band including the base from different aspects. Lot more readings to deal with. If you want to see real consistent bullet diameters, you will have to measure some factory jacketed bullets - it becomes quite apparent why our benchrest shooting friends demand the best match jacketed bullets to pursue the .0000" group at 100 yards ( has not been done ). Best to ya, FC
Hey FC, Are the 3 rounds that are bulged the most, bulged uniformly around the whole cartridge? If not, then they were most likely seated crooked. Not only must our seating plug be true, but when we place our bullet in the charged flared case, care should be taken to place it as squarely as possible. In fact, I like to partially seat the bullet, then give the cartridge a half turn, then finish the seating action. (Just in case there is a slight misalignment, the 180 degree turn should "counter-balance" this) it certainly doesn't do any harm and only adds about an extra minute of my time in loading a box of rounds...
Cookie, thanks for answering the question scientifically. I had trouble loading .357 reloads in my Colt Trooper, which requires .359 bullets to prevent leading of the first inch of the barrel. I buy my cast bullets at .359 diameter (158 to 162 grain SWC). Given the variation in actual bullet diameter and case wall thickness ( I never use mixed brass), some of the loaded rounds will just chamber with a firm push. My solution is a final pass of all loaded rounds through the Redding Profile Crimp Die, which is set to slightly profile crimp a typical oversize round. Works perfect for me even with speedloaders. The chrony tells me that there is no significant difference in Velocity or SD between "Profile Crimp" and NO "Profile Crimp". All rounds are loaded using a Lyman 4 Die Set, with the "M" expander die and seperate seat and crimp dies. SD averages 11 with 5.5 grains of Unique and under 4 for 4.2 grains of Bullseye, using Win cases and primers and Penn Bullet Company cast SWC advertised at 158 grains and averaging 161 grains.
IF those bullets are that much oversized, it might be better to: 1. Swage the bullets down a bit before loading them in a separate swaging die. 2. Find 45 bullets that are a few .001s smaller.
squeeze crimp on auto loading rifle rounds and roll crimp for long straight walled handgun rounds. I have uses lee dies for 18 years and have had great success. I would imagine an aggressive taper crimp on a cast loads would squeeze them out of size. you can use the bullet seating die to taper crimp any load. that is why lee sells the factory crimp separate in most cases.
Try roll crimping .44WCF and .38 WCF cartridges, and you will destroy many of your cases because of their very fragile and thin walls, even .45 Colt does better with a factory crimp die. Be aware that Marlin even before being bought by the Freedom Group used .431 sized barrels for nominal .44 caliber cartridges, their rifles often tumble .429 bullets. When working with these pistol caliber rounds, a reading of history, and careful measurements of slugs from the bore, and chamber mouths is absolutely necessary for acceptable reloads. Colt revolvers, often have cylinder throats of .456 and even larger diameters, a hold over from the days of blackpowder and .454 barrels.
Donald Denison - Thanks for posting this... For additional supportive information, my 1894 44 mag Marlin that has the micro groove barrel has groove dimensionos of .432" - requires .433" bullets to shoot well. I also found that .430" bullets keyholed at 25 yards in that rifle. My recently made 1894 Marlin 44 mag with the Ballard cut rifling shoots .430s just fine. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to ya..!! FC
I size my bullets to .454 as my chamber throats are .4525, and my barrel is .4515. I have looked at the factory crimp dies and wondered if my bullets would be swedged to below .4525. It they will not and I may be buying one afterall. Thanks Fortunecookie45lc!
+Sean O'Brien - Have no fear - the Lee FCDs only iron out irregularities - no full out swaging of the bullets being crimped. Note that most of our rounds will chamber without the FCD (might have to give 'em a little shove to be sure). But with the FCD, we don't have to be concerned - the rounds will drop in with that snick that we like...Good shootin' to ya... FC
Forester co ax press?? Very impressive looking.. Sturdy...I'm going to price this to see what the damage would be... Ah... This hobby is wrought with temptations..;)
tjmooremusic - There are no perfect presses - I did a testing on what the Co-Ax provides for us - the bottom line is, with the best in line bullet seating dies, the Co-Ax gives us .0005" - .001" less run out when compared to using a Lee Custom Cast Press or RCBS Rockchucker. That isn't much and the difference would not be practically apparent until we cross the 500 - 600 yard mark. But if a reloader simply wanted to use what the AMU uses, then the Co-Ax is the way to go. Plus the cost difference amortized over years is not much. Best to ya, FC Steve
I have to suggest reloaders acquire and READ, Handbook For Shooters And Reloaders, Volumes 1 & 2 by P.O. Ackley. It is rather dry reading, but you will learn do's and don'ts if you pay attention. Many of the things this man did are beyond our capabilities and he did survive his experiments, but we very well could not. Ackley devoted a few pages to loading and shooting larger and smaller than bore size ammo, as much as .040 and the results are given in language we can all understand. Ackley was very likely one of the greatest experimenters in firearms.
+Ray C. -- I do have one of Ackley's books - read it, but can't even tell you the title until I get back home to check. He certainly was an innovator of his day - and his name on all those Ackley Improved and Ackley Magnums will etch his name and fame forever into our consciousness. He and Elmer Keith, another of the experimenters of the day, were divergent on some things though - Ackley was what Elmer considered a fan of the "needle blowers" while Ackley called Keith the one "in the big Stetson" who also like big slower bullets that crashed through. It all made for great reading and the selling of magazines and books - they knew that though. I'm going to leave shooting bullets +.04 to others for sure. Best Regards, FC
FC, I finally decided to try the .45ACP Lee carbide crimp die as intended. I have had dies in .45ACP, 40S&W & 9mmMAK to use in the Lee Bulge Buster for several years. It seems to me that going into the die it takes effort to push them up into the die, but why should it require the same effort to pull the round back out of the die ? My bullets are sized to .452. Also the crimp seems to be very inconsistent. The case length that Lee claims doesn't matter gives very irregular crimp tension. Some rounds have to be TAPER crimped afterward to fit in a case gauge , RUGER Blackhawk convertible & COLT SAA.
Walks Fletcher - the whole idea of the LCFCD is to provide 45 ACP taper crimps that will chamber and function just fine as is. You shouldn’t have to run through any other dies to get that. Your 452 is proper. The tension into the die is first felt as a hesitation as the carbide ring removes the flair at the case mouth. Then tension is felt as the taper crimp is applied. You want some taper while keeping the shoulder proud for head spacing. Over doing the taper crimp can actually lose neck tension - not the idea. Of course, this tightness tension is also what you are feeling as the round is withdrawn from the die. And the carbide ring removes any bulges from the crimp as the round exits the die. Taper crimps from the Lee dies do provide consistent crimps as long as your cases are not longer than the max case length. If so trimming is necessary ( I haven’t found cases long enough to require the trimming) - might be your situation. Also, if bullets are past the allowable diameter, you will get excessive sizing during the crimping again causing loss of neck tension. As you have said, your 452 bullets are fine in this regard. Good reloadin’ to ya, FC Steve.
FortuneCookie45LC I don't quite understand. My results are different than yours. 1) Lee claims case length is NOT important. 2) Lee claims It's NOT possible to over crimp using their Die. 3) Lee claims cartridges crimped in their Die will chamber in any firearm chambered in that specific cartridge. 4) I tried rounds crimped in their Die, both shorter & longer then trim-to-length & max-length. 5) I used a COLT Series 70 Gold Cup, COLT Series 80 Special Combat Gov't, RUGER Blackhawk Convertible, GLOCK 21 with stock bbl & WOLFE bbl, S&W M1917 and a DILLON case gauge. Just not getting the results Lee says I'm supposed to be getting. Not all rounds drop into all chamber's as Lee and you claim. I even replaced the Lee cheap ass "lock" ring with a good quality RCBS lock ring. Set exactly as per Lee instructions. Die works great "Bulge Busting" but not so much for crimping.
WF - Don’t know what to say at this point. I have never trimmed any straight wall handgun brass because the length never exceeds max OAL And my cases all crimp fine with good performance (or I’d readily do things differently). And yes, it is very difficult to overcrimp with Lee factory crimp dies, but I don’t often push crimps to the stop with Lee dies. And as my videos show, cartridges that do not chamber all the way or are tight in chambers - run those through the Lee Factory Crimp Dies and same cartridges drop right in and drop right out. What I find is that the LFC dies work as advertised. And you are finding the exact opposite. Your only solution is to send the die back to Lee or simply do not use them. Good reloadin’ to ya...FC Steve
FC, I don't know why it's working out for me this way either. I used to trim .357, .44Mag & .357 Max back in the "olden days" 30-40yrs ago when I was shooting IMSHA. But those were REALLY HOT LOADS, actually overloads today. But I did it to maintain consistency. Something necessary for a good roll crimp. FYI, while I was "farting around" checking those .45acp loads in everything I could find, I discovered the ACP cylinder from my blue Blackhawk Convertable would fit & index properly in both my old STS VAQUERO'S. Too bad RUGER REFUSES to fit an ACP cylinder to either of these guns. The B/C gap was .004 & .003 respectively. It's .006 on the BlackHawk it was made for. Well good shooting to you, Walks
Walks Flethcer - Interesting about your Convertible cylinders fitting your Vaqueros, but that certainly is possible. Congratulations to you on that discovery..!! Increases the versatility of all your guns. Good shootin' to ya, .003 - .004" is much better than .006 (although .006 is at their specs) FC Steve
Cookie, I wan't to buy lead bullets to reload for 44mag 45 colt and 357mag. I can't find a place that sells them.Can you recommend a good on line dealer. Thanks. U DA BEST!!!!!
Cast your own lead projectiles. Lee makes very good and affordable bullet molds. Lead is also pretty cheap. Even cheaper if you have a public outdoor range nearby, that you can go to after hours to collect spent projectiles down range. Or if not after hours, just a few when the range is cold and people are replacing targets. Just don’t be rude about it, and try not to be the last person down range and making people wait while you collect lead. That’ll make enemy’s for sure.
Slightly roll crimp. I know this will get a bunch of flack but remember something, the extractor hooks the cartridge as it feeds. If you can set your bullets out to just kiss the rifling and slightly roll crimp--problem solved. I know the 45 acp head spaces on the case mouth per say. But my experience with over 25 years of hand loading this cartridge leads me to think otherwise. As an example, measure case length on some of your factory brass after firing. The variation will lead you to my conclusion. How many people have you heard of trimming acp rounds because of excess head spacing?
Don't trim. Just sort brass to piles of the same length. Pistol brass as he stated does not stretch with exception a heavy roll crimp on magnum calibers can stretch older week brass sometimes. Then set the crimper to each length size as needed. This provides consistency if you are looking for the most accuracy. Consistency in each step is what it is all about. Including sizing bullets to the gun used.
There are some unscrupulous vendors [generally not name brand because they have too much too lose] and so you really do have to use precise calipers and to test size & weight bullets. When the powder ignites the chamber will develop 50,000 PSIand even 75,000 PSI before the bullet begins to move. Ed Matunas (Metallic Cartridge Reloading), Grennel & Clapp (Handgun Reloading) Steindler (Reloaders Guide) .. Lee (factory) publications, Hornady, Sierra Bullets publications are all RELIABLE. Lone individuals notions are not reliable (and you can lose body parts). There are no harmless calibers and it is very easy to screw up big time. Read until you understand and do it right. Be careful with powder, bullets, primers, measures, scales, crimps .. don't even DO IT if you are not prepared to do it right (because it can be bad for your health)
I have several boxes to OT laser cut lead round nose. None will drop through the 45colt cylinder on my blackhawk . I tapped them gently but they don’t go out the end of the cylinder. These are 230grn LRN will the Lee factory crimp die help or should we be sizing these or are they wrong all together. I don’t load lead. This is my first go round as I normally use extreme copper coated for my hand loads in 9mm 357 and 45acp. This lead stuff has me confused a bit.
ritesideofthefence 58 - If your bullets drop through, they are too small, or your cylinder throat openings are too big. Yes, you want them to be push through. Bullets .001-.002" bigger than your throats are optimal. If bigger than that, you will have to tap them through - you can still shoot those but max loads will have pressure spiking. Measuring your cylinder throats will tell you the size of bullets you need. Lee sizing dies can then be used to size your bullets to optimal. Your cylinder throats may very well be .449". You could have all your throats reamed to .451" to best shoot those .452" bullets (happens to be standard for lead bullet 45). A gunsmith could do that for you fairly cheap as they have the reamers already. We would have to buy those from Brownell's or Midway may stock those. Have a great day, FC Steve
What I cannot understand is why do the seated .452" bullets cause a bulge in the front of the case ? Surely in a fired case, the body of the case would be as big as the chamber and when seated there would be no increase in diameter, unless they were full length resized cases. Interesting that you can get a .458" bullet in your chamber, have you measured the chamber throats?
+Englishman French -- Thanks for your comment. As you say, it's not just the .458-459 bullet, but also the 2x case wall thickness that dropped into the chamber. The FCD really only ironed out spot bulges and irregularities - There was more felt with the big rounds than the others, but it wasn't any concerted sizing down that was felt when the big rounds went into the FCD. So it is amazing that the chambers take those. Goes back to Elmer Keith doing experimentation with his Colt SAA in 45 Colt - he was using 45-70 bullets also and he wasn't sizing them down back then - those rounds also chambered, and his hot loads blew the top of the cylinder off. I'm definitely not shooting .458-459 bullets through my BH that has .452 cylinder throats. Best Regards, FC
Even neck sizing dies reduce that part of the case sufficiently to cause a bulge when the bullet is seated. The neck sizing dies do not size the base and will not allow 100% drop in loading because of the normal variations found in even the finest of revolver cylinders and rifle chambers. The factory crimp die will swage out the minor imperfections encountered in reloading this caliber, indeed for .44WCF as well, now that the Clone manufacturers are using .429 barrels for all firearms of .44 nominal caliber. (.44WCF, .44 Special .44 Russian, and in .44 Magnum) The solution there is to use the .44 Special/.44 Magnum expanding balls instead of the .427 ball with the .44WCF dies, indeed with Marlin .44 Caliber rifles as well, one should use a bullet sized to at least .429 in order to get ammunition that will chamber well and shoot accurately. Don't even try to use .427 44WCF (44-40) unless you are loading for an original. Marlin has always used barrels of .430 to .431 so it is essential to use properly sized ammunition in their rifles, even those made since WWII are often found with barrels of .431 inches. Check the cylinder's chamber throats and size for them, for rifles use bore sized bullets if they will cycle through the rifle, it is not unusual to find a rifle with a tight throat and a bore that is oversized for the chamber, the solution there is to open up the throat of the rifle chamber to allow bore sized bullets to chamber. History is an important subject when dealing with pistol caliber rifles and revolvers especially. Look to both Mike Venturino's writing, and especially to what Elmer Keith had to say about these situations, information is a very valuable commodity..
i dont have many lee dies and i hate the extra binding and noise from the factory crimp die but it works well for iffy bullets. i dont see this happening at all unless they use over sized bullets and then the problem is with the caster or buyer of the bullets not the crimp die. i like my dillon crimp dies but if im lazy and just want a couple thousand rounds to blow through in an afternoon i will use the lee dies or when im loading my seconds from poor casting practices :).
+Andrew James -- Wow, Andrew...I thought there were times that I shot a lot...but 2K rounds in an afternoon without having an automatic weapon is impressive...!! We find good uses for the dies that work for us...Have a great day, FC
+Andrew James I'm not sure I agree with you on this one. Case thickness has become extraordinarily inconsistent with certain calibers and as such the LFCD can make functioning ammo that was not loaded improperly or cast to a wrong size. For instance I size all of my .45 ACP's to .451 and still (using only Federal SPP cases) I have rounds that will not fully chamber because they are tight. I do not remember this being an issue until 10 years or so ago but it certainly is now.
+FortuneCookie45LC actually i have a couple select fire weapons but they are for combat and dont see much practice as my sporting weapons lol. i find my self loading, shooting only to load come home dump my brass in the tumbler and load some more and with cheap powders like titgroup i can really enjoy my hobby and with my new powder coating technique between me and a friend 2,000 is actually easy and very fun running real life drills. but this is where the dillon 500 comes into its own lol. when you can cast and load 1,000 rnds for under $40 dollars the question becomes why not and with rocky mountain realoading theirs no excuse to the non caster ;). i blow off premium jhp's for $115 per 1,000 lol just because i like their performance at +p pressures. try them rmr is where its at for good tmj, fmj and pulled maned brand bullets XD. i would say the holy grail for jacketed bullets.
+Nathan Metzner -- Doesn't have to be an issue - within parameters (like your 45), the Lee FCD works very well without doing any swaging or loss of neck tension. It's only when outside of parameters that weirdness happens. I recall seeing Hickok 45 do extra pushing to be sure his rounds were seated in his revolver cylinder. If he used the Lee FCD, the rounds would have all snicked in with that good snick sound that we all like - no extra finger pushing required. I thought of asking him that, but considered that his gun was just getting fouling buildup from all the shooting he was doing...the FCD can't help that... Best to ya, FC
+Andrew James -- Yes, you remind me of happier times - we used to reload to fill up the hoppers and then just dump them into a Border Shift bag in bulk approx 750 rounds - heavy rascal. With the FCD, we didn't have to case gauge every round (unless shooting a match). My own gun is a Colt Series 70 fully comped out and it was not real particular - I used good magazines, and it fed everything I loaded for it...Favorite load was 5.2 grains of Promo and the 210 grain Lee long nose SWC or the same bullet purchased in moly coated persuasion from Great Western Bullets - made major and ran the compensator the best. Good shootin' to ya, FC
probably because they want to be different and have daddy issues. ive noticed hornady brass sucks and i hate it. both reasons might be why but probably because i hate their over priced, pay for the brand, tarnish to easy and cant clean easily suck brass. i hope this helped and now you know i dont like hornady brass or for that matter their over priced bullets and chinese made loading supplies. their older stuff is good but now they seem gimmicky and are riding on the hornady name.
Size the same bullet to 452 and run back to back chrono with the fat ones. That might show loss of neck tension and acccuracy. Also ya never chked the inside diameter of the pulled bullet cases to see what the tension was... Inconclusive IMO
+aracp -- Thanks for noticing that, but I didn't do that since the bullets were essentially the same size after pulling as before they were seated. So that if the bullets were smaller, then the swaging occurred and the loss of neck tension would be very much suspected. Since there was only a bit of increase in the usual bulge correction feedback from the press and die with these rounds ( no major sizing being felt), the essentially same bullet diameter after pulling was not a surprise. Now, if even larger bullets were seated, then the FCD would have been doing some major swaging indeed, but that would have been in the realm of the ridiculous - these were big enough already. Have a great day, FC
+aracp -- Addendum reply - had to go back to work so this is delayed getting to you...the reason this is a sensitive issue is that, in my own experience, there was the loading of bullets many years ago now, that must have been on the big side in the 45 ACP. The bullets seated as usual, but when I ran the rounds through my Lee FCD to taper crimp the rounds, instead of the usual happening, the bullets would go into the FCD and you could feel more sizing than usual, when the round was pulled out of the die, the bullet that was seated a little farther out of the case was being grabbed by the die and there was enough loss of neck tension to pull the bullet out of the case on round withdrawl. I haven't had that happen again since, and I cannot get it to happen on demand even with these oversized 45-70 bullets in the 45 Colt...strange, but always in my memory...and way too complicated to mention in the video... Best to ya, FC
randy I had the same thing happen after using the 45acp fcd, I’ve since ordered dedicated taper crimp dies The bullet would set back .030” on chambering, it did NOT do that after seating - I also had the crimp completely backed off This was using a popular brand of plated bullets
randy Rexroad - You did nothing wrong. I've had that happen with 45 ACP also. Seems that when we have a bullet like that has less bearing surface and the bullet is on the large side - we did not size 'em. We can actually get enough swaging on the bullet and case that the case springs back off the bullet so that neck tension is lost. The bullet can be simply pulled out of the case with the fingers. What we have to do is size those bullets down to the correct diameter (usually .452") and then proceed. On bullet seating, there will only be the hints of sizing and swaging happening. Then the FCD is fulfilling its design. With proper sizing of the cast bullet, the seating will achieve the correct neck tension retention and the FCD will not reduce that when it applies the crimp and irons out irregularities that would cause functioning difficulties. Good reloadin' to ya, FC Steve
I think that the mixed results here have to do with thickness of our brass walls as well as possible deviations in the diameter of every individual carbide ring.
Slightly roll crimp. I know this will get a bunch of flack but remember something, the extractor hooks the cartridge as it feeds. If you can set your bullets out to just kiss the rifling and slightly roll crimp--problem solved. I know the 45 acp head spaces on the case mouth per say. But my experience with over 25 years of hand loading this cartridge leads me to think otherwise. As an example, measure case length on some of your factory brass after firing. The variation will lead you to my conclusion. How many people have you heard of trimming acp rounds because of excess head spacing?
Cookie.. Just a foot note, I think it would be Great if we as Subscribers started a fund drive for your channel to support you to acquire a Machine Rest for Load testing (Ransom Rest), Instead of accuracy testing at 12 1/2 yards and 25 yards, You could test loads in pistols all the way out to 50 or 100 yards.. I have found that even doing 25 yard test really doesn't do that much reveling the accuracy of pistols or ammo.. The real test is at 50.. One of the things Bullseye Guys say "It's not how they shoot at the short line, It's how they do at the fifty".. I Believe that would be your Crown Jewel. Good day to Ya,, Thorsaxe777
+Thorsaxe777 -- When I was working up to shooting NRA Bullseye, I discovered that I could shoot credibly one handed at 25 yards, but got the occasional flyer. That flyer happened every 10 rounds or so, and I couldn't get rid of them - something about the bad nerve in my right arm from playing years of tennis. Even at 25 yards, those flyers were immediate losers. At 50 yards, those would have been unmitigated disasters. I was working up to the 50 yard line, but never got there. NRA Bullseye has to be the toughest handgun sport bar none. I just shot action and steel instead, run and gun stuff - and shot bullseye for precision work. I could shoot High Power Rifle better than NRA Bullseye so I did some competing in High Power. Today, my ulnar nerve is even worse in my right arm. If I shoot one handed, I have to shoot between the flares. That Ransom Rest would be the real deal - I have never seen one being used at any of the many ranges that I have frequented over all these years...plus I understand that the individual gun adapters are on the pricey side as well...Any shooter that brought one to a range would attract some real interest for sure... But I would not expect the viewers to do anything like that - it would not be appropriate... Best to ya, FC
Well cookie, I feel that a Man that does what you do, Step by step puts his nose to the grindstone to discover what is a gadget, what is a gismo and what works. Should have something like that available to him, I think about what fun a guy like you would have having one of those, Not as a Toy, but part of your reloading equipment and You tube tools. I would Talk to the Club that you belong to and see if they would agree to fund one for the Members on a check out basis But never leave the club. About 20 years ago I bought my Rock River Custom 1911, It came with a less than one and a half accuracy guarantee at 50 yards. well I Gave it a run for the money with the ransom rest with 20 shots of Federal Gold Medal Match 185 gr. They all shot through the same hole in less than a inch at 50. But, here is the Kicker, I reloaded the Brass that was shot and returned to the Ransom rest and found that my 185 H&G loads with 3.8 grs of Bullseye trumped that Gold medal stuff, and here is another kicker that was a plus. I shot Mixed Brass and found that cases don't make a difference ether. same result's. anyway I would talk to the range board and maybe put it up to a vote. Good things to Ya Cookie..
+Thorsaxe777 -- A couple of the Bullseye shooters that I regularly see at the range and you would make a fantastic panel for a video...Some of the topics for discussion would include the changes in equipment over the years, where the sport is now and where it's going, current thoughts on the national importance of citizen marksmanship... I'd have a field day moderating the thing...But I'll have to research to see if that's already been done... Have a great day, FC
+Thorsaxe777 -- Thanks for your willingness - don't know if the other shooters are camera shy or anything -- I might just be daydreaming. -- TV shows can do that; they have producers that look at the budget, bring the principle people together, and then the directors assemble the supportive personnel, take over and get it done. The thing needs to be sold to the advertisers. If done as a phone llink...there is no show there...Best to ya, FC
Hornady seems to be consistent with their 'short cases' across all calibers they make in (revolver) pistol rounds. Their .357 brass is always about .025" shorter than any other brand of brass, no matter who makes it. I cull all mine into a container until I get enough to make a run of 50 to 100, then set everything up to properly size, flare, seat the bullet and crimp that batch.
Hay I just had a thought, they have case trimmers for a reason, as you fire a case 1,2,3 etc times the case stretches and you have to trim them or else they won’t chamber. My dum idea, if the case is short to begin with then you won’t have to trim them. After I typed this I saw how much of a stupid thought it is, I sent it anyway, I didn’t want to delete it and I wanted to let everyone know that even not so bright people read theses 🤡things🤪
@@kenneydin I think case stretch on a straight walled cartridge like .357 is minimal. More than anything else, I've seen nickle cases (mostly, but some brass) split from 'hot loads' in old guns. Now, necked rifle cases is a whole nother tale....
The Lee instruction sheet does NOT claim that if the rounds chamber they are good to shoot. That's a logical fallacy you've created from their words that if the rounds are good to shoot they will chamber.
He says that at the beginning of the video, this was for discussion sake. However, shooting .45-70 bullets out of a .45 Colt was how Elmer Keith got famous (by blowing up a Colt SAA!) Good shooting sir!
Disagree. The ones that wouldn't chamber were ones that weren't as concentric as the others, visibly. Of course accuracy would probably be poor and I wouldn't suggest firing oversized bullets with stout loads and you may find cylinder leading as bullets are swaged down in the cylinder throat. When using a soft lead bullet it will be swaged a couple times before it leaves the barrel. Before it gets to the cylinder throat, again in the forcing cone, when the bullet is engraved with the rifling. When you squeeze a bullet down, where does that diameter go? The bullet becomes longer. Not so hard to understand.
I'm preparing to reload for a new Marlin 1894, 44 magnum. I consulted with one of the most respected bullet makers/sellers who also has family that are high level shooters at the national level. I was looking to choose a cast lead bullet for my new lever action because it cycles poorly with the jacketed hollowpoints. He suggested slugging the barrel to find the diameter of the bore since they do vary even in factory guns. I knew that having the bullet that matches the bore size properly enhances accuracy. I'm using them for a purpose that doesn't need high velocity but good accuracy. He told me at the beginning not to use a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die on these as it would swage the bullet back to a size smaller than than appropriate for the bore if for instance the correct bullet diameter was .432 the LFCD would swage the cast bullet back to something less than the original goal of .432 which would be most accurate in my barrel which measured .4312 when slugged. Standard cast bullet diameter for the cast lead bullet is .430, which is .001 more than a jacketed bullet standard size. The idea is to have a bullet .001 larger than the bore diameter which with a cast lead bullet allows for better grip of the rifling on the bullet and more consistent velocities and improved accuracy. He recommended a Redding Profile crimp die which doesn't post size the cartridge as does the Lee because when pulling the bullet out of the Lee die it passes through the carbide ring toward the bottom of the die a second time, sizing the entire cartridge again. In effect, you could start with the perfect diameter bullet, ie .432 and after crimping (and unintentionally post sizing), you would be left with a bullet that is no longer .001 larger than bore but .001 smaller. Clearly the bullet would shoot but not with the same accuracy potential of the original .432 diameter bullet. I love the Lee die, especially in my 9mm and 38 super applications because the first consideration for these is total reliability and reasonable accuracy 2nd. I don't see a reduction in accuracy with these primarily because they are used inside of 50 yds at most and typically 10 to 25 yards. I think the application dictates which of these are best and in my case, I will use both to achieve what I need in each individual cartridge.
I had problems with my Lee 356-95-RF dropping at .360. When ran through the Lee FCD it swagged the bullet down and pushed the lead up and out of the case making them look like mushrooms. Luckily I found this problem while making dummy rounds so no problem. Not using the die and just the seating die worked until I bought a sizing die then the FCD worked great.
Great video FC.
+chevy6299 -- Thanks for all your great comments...When in doubt, size the bullets - that's a great conclusion from your comment... Best to ya, FC
As always, very thorough and informative information! Thanks Fortune.
I was aware of both sides of the controversy, you are the first person I have seen do a numerical evaluation of an extreme case. Thanks. This answers actual questions I have had. in .45 ACP even with first sizing, I was having some intermittent issues with maybe 3/100 loaded rounds being tough to chamber/extract. I considered that inappropriate ammo to share with friends. FCD cured it. Same for .380 acp. I simply couldn't make ammo which would reliably feed without FCD using bullets sized to .356.
+GunFun ZS -- The whole key is our FCDs should only do minor corrections of our ammo as the crimps are made. If the action is major, we are losing neck tension.. Lee designed the idea of TL molds - load 'em without sizing - and let the FCD take care of anything that might cause problems with the ammo functioning - an integrated approach. But there are definitely limits to what the FCD can do... Thanks to Lee - the integrated approach works very well as you and I (and many others) have found... Good shootin' and Good dancin' to ya... FC
When you get a load dialed up I recommend trying various levels of crimp even in bolt action. That minuscule amount of time the crimps holds the bullet can help SD and accuracy.
Started using the Lee FCD just a couple years ago & now they are a standard step in my reloading process.
Actually the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die (or CFCD for short) was never designed for cast lead bullets. It was designed for jacketed bullets, specifically for correcting when somebody seated a bullet wrong creating a bulge on one side of the finished cartridge. When shooting cast lead bullets that you're casting yourself, the best way to go about knowing what to size the bullets is to slug the barrel, that is, take a round ball slightly larger than the bore size of the pistol made of pure lead, and push it down the barrel of the pistol. In the case of a revolver you would want to do that, as well as slug each of the cylinders. When shooting cast bullets you want to size the bullets .001 larger than the diameter of the largest slug. For most pistols shooting the .45ACP cartridge the bullets usually wind up sizing to .452 but it's not unheard of for some to need bullets sized to .453. For the .45Colt cartridge they normally need bullets sized to .454 although some Rugers have barrels / cylinders that can go down to .452 By making your bullets larger than the bore of your pistol to start with you reduce the chances of leading, increase the chances of getting better groups, the gun is easier to clean too.
Getting back to the Lee CFCD, if you're loading fairly soft almost pure lead bullets (say a 30:1 lead/tin alloy) sized fairly large (.454 or .455 for 45Colt) and you're using brass that's been shot a dozen times or so, and so is getting work hardened and brittle, then you run your finished cartridge thru the CFCD, you're going to wind up having a bullet that's been sized down from where YOU want it to be, and because the soft lead alloy doesn't bounce back, you will loose neck tension. Lee for whatever reason actually has two different products that they call the Factory Crimp Die, one is the Carbide one which is for pistol calibers, and the other is the one they make for rife calibers. The rifle version uses a collet like device to really clamp down on only a very small amount of the bullet, just enough to make sure the brass case gets into the crimp groove of the bullet, or if there isn't a crimp groove on the bullet, this die will make one, that's how strong it clamps down! Now normally they only make this version of the die in rifle calibers, but folks that reload the 45Colt are in luck, as that's the only straight wall pistol caliber that Lee makes their rifle style FCD!
And just now as I finished typing in this whole long comment I glance over at the video selection on the right side of my screen to see your video showing what looks like 2 of the carbide FCDs and the 45Colt rifle style FCD! so I'm going to go watch it right now...
I've had great and consistent results with the Lee Carbide FCD in 9, 38super, 40, 10, 45, 45LC, 45 Casull, 5.56, 6.8spc, 308, and 30-06. Neck tension tests in both handgun and rifle are very consistent. I also use the Lee Carbide U dies in all handgun calibers.
I had problems with 9mm and Taurus G3. It undersized the case just enough to headspace wrong and I got light strikes. Went back to crimping 9mm Lee bullet seater. FCD works great on. 38 and 357.
I always used them. They are perfect!.
I am a fan of the Lee FC die...and size all my lead cast bullets...Nice thumb! You knew I would catch that!.......... Looks like at 14:00 the Buckshot coated Alox is drying and a loading Video is next!
+gman77gas -- That is really impressive that you noticed that...!! Amazing... I couldn't frame that shot to avoid getting that in there. But you are also clairvoyant, that video should be up in the next couple of days... Best to ya, Gary, FC Steve
Lee has two types of Factory Crimp Dies, one that is carbide style and one that is collet styled. The Carbide sizer part straightens the cases back up when the crimp part bulges the cases from the downward force of the die upon the case neck. The Collect Style crimp die does not apply downward pressure but rather inward pressure of which does not buckle the case creating a bulge that would then need ironing out. If this is true the carbide part of the die fixes what the downward pressure crimp part messes up, whereby I call it a gimmick of sorts because it does not really solve the problem, but rather patches it over. All that work hardening the brass is not good either. Better to just not cause an issue as apposed to patching it back up I would think.
Again The Lee Collect Style crimp die never buckles the case whereby never needing to fix its own fuct-ups, as the downward forcing Lee Carbide Factory Style crimp dies do. Ergo with the Collect Style crimp dies there is never a need for the carbide ring, period. So if you see my point being Lee has the Collet Style crimp dies why would they sell a Carbide crimp die that messes up the brass only to turn around and solve its own issues, other than to act as if it is the crimp die of crimp dies of sort that everyone should have(?). That is why I call it a gimmick crimp die. Makes no sense when the Collet Style crimp die exist, right?
Be sure and watch Lee's own videos on their Factory Carbide Style crimp dies:
1) th-cam.com/video/0rjlUH25DyM/w-d-xo.html
And their Factory Collet Style crimp dies (of which they have both /roll and a taper types):
2) th-cam.com/video/vo7p4k36swI/w-d-xo.html
Most likely the Hornady brass is shorter because 225 FTX was properly loaded into that brass to get a proper crimp on the FTX cannelure. I had to trim .070 off my brass for the FTX making it to book spec.
+aracp -- Interesting, never did figure out why Hornady brass was shorter, now I know... Have a great day, FC
One good way to to measure the max dia that the fcd will allow without swageing down the bullet is to run a fired case through the fcd (unsized and no bullet). Then measure the diameter of the case in the areas it contacts the bullet. Then measure the case wall thickness and subtract that from your case dia. It should give you a good number to work with if you plan on using oversized bullets. One tip is to do it with one of all the different brass/headstamps you have. Each brand may have slighty different case wall thicknesses. You could also do it with a bullet seated pull the bullet and measure but you will have to recycle those.
Another trick ive been playing with is using the fcd as my sizing die because mine isnt as tight as the sizing die. It allows me to size my brass just enough to snugly fit the cylinder giving it a better seal when fired. Im still comparing how much it effects the accuracy but have noticed slightly tighter groups + higher velocity. Not much but a little.
+Mike Barnes -- Now why haven't I thought of that - well done, yon Jedi - Impressive, most impressive..!! FC
You leave me sort of speechless.. I have always sized my cast bullets in a lube size Machine, therefore in the case a bullet being sized to say .452 it will be as round as the die made it. In the case of bullets that are shot as cast, they are only as round as they dropped from the mold. I feel that is where the irregularity and Bulges come from and the factory crimp die irons out that bulge.. Now,, The Barrel and chamber throat Know what size the bullet should be and will squeeze the Bullet down to size as the cartridge is fired so Minor irregularity isn't an issue. I choose to size my bullets and I don't have bulges in the cases that impede chambering in my firearms, The only time that has happened is when I was getting a bulge at the Bottom of the case and that was cleared up by switching shell holders. and again another Informative Video Cookie. You are a asset to the reloading community.
+Thorsaxe777 -- You recall us discussing this issue...videos can be spurred from anywhere and everywhere - again thanks for the impetus to do this one...it was fun to do...Had to dig out those old 45-70 bullets casted 30 years ago... Best to ya, FC
Wouldn't running that big of bullet up into the factory crimp die to swage the case cause extreme pressure because you essentially are compressing the case?
...four years later, but... Hey Thor, could you explain how switching the case holder helped you? What was the issue with your first one? Thanks
the only time I had an issue with the LFCD swaging cast bullets was with some loads I was working up in .40S&W. Specifically, the brand of brass I was using was slightly thicker and when passed through the die it squeezed the lead. Those particular loads leaded a bit, so I sorted out some thinner brass to load and the problem went away. I still think the LFCD is a great die, just have to pay attention to how the rounds feel when using it. If you have to use both hands to cycle the ram it's an indication the recipe needs adjustment lol. Great videos I like that you show all your results and edit sparingly.
+mky45lg -- Seems users of the FCD have determined the usual and proper feel for the die doing its work...if we get more than that, we are alerted that something is out of balance. Within the balance is where Richard Lee intended this die to work... Best to ya, FC
I know this is an old video (good one, too) but it seems to me a lot of the controversy is people assume the LFCD "Resizes" the case to the same dimensions as the sizing die. Did you ever measure the ID of the LFCD, compared to the ID of the resizing die? I bet the resizing die is smaller, with the LFCD only "resizing" if the case is beyond the maximum tolerance diameter. When I run a resized empty case back into the sizing die a second time, it always has a little bit of resistance, but almost all of my seated bullets run into the LFCD with no resistance at all until I reach the crimping groove. (I'm in a hotel right now and won;t be home to measure my dies for several days yet.)
hello Fc 45 lc , i use those lee pistol factorycrimpers most of the time ,although the rifle version works the best way for a crimp,And i said it before; a pistol lee factory crimper is a perfect tool .if you use uniformed cases (primerhole bevelling and trim lenght)And cases from the same lot.(because of the wallthickness and brasstype) .and thats only done/needed once on a batch (500 or 1000 cases),and you get especially on a progressive press a smooth operation and better accuracy.
+peteralexben -- Indeed, if we prep our pistol brass as we prep our rifle brass, we can get more uniform results. Not too many pistol shooters do that though as we need lots of ammo good for shorter range more than we need tack driving ammo at distance with our handguns. With our rifles 20 rounds will do (not 250-500 rounds). Most handgun shooters conclude that we don't need to do all that...but as you say, those that wish to do that should go ahead and do all that...Would be different if I could hold the x-ring at 50 yards one handed...then I'd want ammo that would group according to that standard. But if I was good enough to do that, the perfect score at Camp Perry would be in sight...and Winchester would give me all the match 148 WC ammo that I could use...that would be very nice indeed (hah!! - FC, the dreamer-- )... Best Regards, FC
+FortuneCookie45LC hello, The point I trying to make is this ,if you use differrent case`s , you get casewall thickness difference`s and elasticy of the case wall and that will result in more or less sizing of the bullet in the case,with the lee factory crimper.
+peteralexben -- Interesting, without realizing this - I was doing just that back in my PPC days - I bought 1000 round boxes of commercial reloads all reloaded with Winchester brass that had been loaded with factory 148 grain match wadcutters. I still have boxes and boxes of that Winchester brass 38s. It's really handy when I want to use uniform brass. Otherwise, for range shooting, I just use all my mixed stuff. That brass was all free and mighty fine to get... Have a great day, FC
I know this is late to the discussion, but it is about the crimp die. First the setup, just before COVID I bought a Taurus g3c and to break it in I planned to use up some of the cheap steel cased tula ammo I had stockpiled. I took it to the range, loaded a mag full and started shooting, after several rounds a round failed to fully chamber and jammed the pistol tight. After watching a video on TH-cam on how to clear that sort of jam I took the gun apart and tried rounds from that box and found about 20 percent would not chamber. I am guessing Taurus cuts their chambers smaller than my other 9mm which chambers tula rounds just fine. The question is, could I, or even should I run the tula rounds through my lee 9mm factory crimp die to see if that makes them more uniform? The Taurus loads and fires wwb 147 grain jhp just fine with no issues, which was my choice of carry loads for it. It just seems wasteful to use $32 a box ammo for breakin instead of the $7 a box ammo I have stored away.
Did they pull out easily with the inertia bullet puller? (That would be the test to see if the neck tension was compromised) They did seem to be a bit egg shaped in the diameters...
i have a little single action .22 revolver and i want to get one in .45 LC so bad
+HunterFisher 99 -- The 45 Colt and single action revolver is one heck of a combination - always has been. When you touch off those big 255 grain slugs at 875 fps, there's some real business there... Best to ya, FC
Dear Fortune Cookie:
I have viewed at least two of your videos about the use of the Lee Factory Crimp Die. For the most part we are getting better machined cylinder chamber throats now, though I have heard that Colt has changed to .4525" which is about perfect for that round, I'll believe it when I actually see it. Colt began this situation when they changed their barrels from .454" to 452". The change was OK, but evidently they had lots of .45 Colt cylinders on hand with .454 up to .456, and rarely but present .457 Cylinder Throats. Clone manufacturers when they began to produce SAAs in .45 Colt, chambered the cylinders at first to nominal .454 dimensions. This is OK for most loading, we just simply sized for .454 and went happily on our way. The exception has always been with Colt Revolvers which were often found with throats of .456 and larger. I've been loading for the .45 Colt since I began shooting them as a 13 year old back in 1954. The only way I could get the revolvers with grossly oversize throats to shoot accurately was to size to .454 using 1-40 lead alloy, and using Blackpowder to slap the bullets in the butt and upset them to fit the chamber on firing. This procedure works well but relegates those revolvers with chamber throats with .456" and larger to use with Blackpowder only. This creates a problem only for those who don't know how to clean blackpowder fouling, or won't clean their spent cases and revolvers with a solvent made up largely of water. I used water soluble machinists oil until I discovered Ballistol mixed 1-10, I settled on this for Blackpowder cleaning, washed my cases and everything was OK. Early on, I could not afford a press, but our farm shop had an arbor press which I used with the old Lyman full length die with the punch rod for resizing revolver brass. I used the cylinders for testing reloaded ammunition just as you do, and at first tried to use the full length die to clean up the offending rounds, it didn't work, it ruined my ammunition. I settled on removing the de-capping pin on the neck sizing die in my 310 kit, and neck sizing every piece of loaded ammunition in this die, making sure I rubbed a little lube on the necks of the ammunition first. This worked perfectly and I used the method for years, often using the 310 dies in a press after I got one, eventually I broke down and got a 4 die Lyman pistol set and have used that set to load thousands of rounds with accuracy, I caution you that some, maybe even most 310 neck sizing dies are too tight for this procedure. I eventually traded that Colt with the grossly oversized chamber throats. Ruger, and Clone manufacturers of .45 Colt Chambered revolvers have cleaned up their acts, I don't know what Colt is doing, maybe they're still believing that we are still in the Blackpowder era, but I have heard that they very recently have seen the light and are cutting their chambers .4525-,453" like the rest of the industry does. FYI I now use the Lee dies and the factory crimp dies and have exceptionally uniform and accurate ammunition, I size to .453 (a custom die from Buffalo Armes), and only occasionally does a round need attention, in truth rarely does a round need attention. I do not even try to roll crimp anymore, I use that seating die to seat the bullet without a crimp then run the round into the factory crimp die, this procedure works fine. What to do about revolvers with grossly oversized chamber throats? Make a trade, find an extra cylinder of the correct dimensions, or go to soft alloys and Blackpowder not forgetting that one must clean with a water based solvent, and wash fired cases in hot soapy water. It is interesting observing reloaders bit by bit discovering what Elmer knew 60 years ago. If anyone has trouble with a revolver, the real solution is to find and read Sixguns by Elmer Keith, it will save a lot of frustration, The Old Man really knew his stuff, it was a rare privilege to have known him, we'll not see his like again.
Merry Christmas to You and Yours
Don Denison
Don Denison - That was a great comment..!! Elmer is as relevant today as he ever was. He didn't use gas checks because they simply weren't needed. And he did more with 20-1 and 16-1 alloy than we do with all the antimony and arsenic mixing and heat treating and age hardening stuff. He just shot what worked. His stuff works today as well as it ever did. My Virginian Dragoon 44 mag has chamber throats at .435" so I need bullets at .436" Well, no easy way to get bullets that oversized and if .430s are shot through those throats, leading is guaranteed - might get a couple of dozen good shots before leading degrades accuracy. So I just shoot a lot of jacketed through there, and the gun shoots fine with that. Your exploits with that Lyman 310 tong tool are the stuff of legend... Best to ya, and Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to ya..!! FC
Dear Fortune Cookie:
A solution would be to find a new old stock cylinder in .357 Magnum, and have it rechambered to .44 Magnum to your specifications, I've heard of others using that solution for other revolvers whose cylinders were beyond hope of redemption, save the old cylinder for a Virginian Dragoon in .45 Colt that needs similar help.
Donald Denison - There was a commenter who said that Brownell's had some extra Virginian Dragoon cylinders at one time years ago...Fortunately, my Dragoon shoots fine with the heavier jacketed bullets, and even shooting cast for about a dozen shots actually shoots OK... Along with your comment, I'm sure a trip to a good gunsmith out in Nevada to have new cylinder work done would be the way to go...Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to ya..!! FC
Dear Fortune Cookie: One solution for your Virginian Dragoon if you really like it otherwise is to see if you can find one in .357, preferably one that is being sold cheap for some reason that the re chambering of the cylinder will clean up. I don't know if they were ever chambered in ..41 Mag, that should work well also. Then slug your bore, and have the chambers cut, and specify that the throats be .0005 larger than the slug that you get from your barrel. I have seen some Virginian Dragoons selling cheap at gun shows, worn, but the cylinders should be good, just check them out for wear in the critical areas, after all all you want is a cylinder smaller than the .44. Try also Jack First, Century, SARCO, and some of the chat forums. I once had a Virginian Dragoon, it was in .45 Colt, and would digest any load one could think of, it really liked a stiff load of 2400, and with solid head cases, would give the .44 Mag a run for it's money. I've got to go to Jackson tomorrow to do my shopping, an hour down , an hour back and three hours there more if I'm not lucky, it pretty much shoots the day, so I'll wish you and yours a Merry Christmas, may the Lord richly Bless you all.
Sincerely Yours
Don Denison
Donald Denison - Hope you had a very good trip and a great Christmas celebration as well. Problem with finding a used Virginian in a smaller caliber is that the gun might shoot well - but then it would not be a problem. But, tell you what, I'm going to check out some gun shows and see what I can scrape up...!! Happy New Year to you and yours, Don...FC Steve
Hey FC, great videos all around! Who makes those ivory-like grips you've got on the revolver in the video? Thanks and good shooting!
Dear fortune cookie 45LC, I have a Henry Big boy in 45 colt. I loaded some swc cast bullets and had poor luck feeding so I got a LEE 6 CAV MOLD TL452-230-2R and had better luck, Isee the oal in my book is 1.60. I'm using 6 gr of titegroup and your 45 45 10 lube. I love the Henry and the 45colt cartridge do you have any quick advice you could share ? Ps love you channel !!
Is there a trick to putting the calipers on the center diameter of a lead cast bullet, or for that matter any bullet ?
Wish you were my neighbor :-)
+Nick J -- Since the longitudinal axis is most important, I measure along the base to the nose direction. Unsized bullets are seldom perfectly round, but can be close. If bullets have been sized, one measurement is sufficient. (but care will have to be exercised to not have the lube throw off the reading). If not, I measure all around the bullet in at least 4 readings from different longitudinal aspects...Ususally, the readings are within .001 - .0015 so I'll go with the biggest reading. There is no set way - some casters measure at right angles to the long axis of the bullet, but then, you have to measure every driving band including the base from different aspects. Lot more readings to deal with. If you want to see real consistent bullet diameters, you will have to measure some factory jacketed bullets - it becomes quite apparent why our benchrest shooting friends demand the best match jacketed bullets to pursue the .0000" group at 100 yards ( has not been done ). Best to ya, FC
Hey FC, Are the 3 rounds that are bulged the most, bulged uniformly around the whole cartridge? If not, then they were most likely seated crooked. Not only must our seating plug be true, but when we place our bullet in the charged flared case, care should be taken to place it as squarely as possible. In fact, I like to partially seat the bullet, then give the cartridge a half turn, then finish the seating action. (Just in case there is a slight misalignment, the 180 degree turn should "counter-balance" this) it certainly doesn't do any harm and only adds about an extra minute of my time in loading a box of rounds...
Sometimes the brass case on the sides will collapse and buckle having a muffin top as the kids say on the sides like a fat roll on your hips
Great info here.
Cookie, thanks for answering the question scientifically.
I had trouble loading .357 reloads in my Colt Trooper, which requires .359 bullets to prevent leading of the first inch of the barrel.
I buy my cast bullets at .359 diameter (158 to 162 grain SWC). Given the variation in actual bullet diameter and case wall thickness ( I never use mixed brass), some of the loaded rounds will just chamber with a firm push.
My solution is a final pass of all loaded rounds through the Redding Profile Crimp Die, which is set to slightly profile crimp a typical oversize round. Works perfect for me even with speedloaders. The chrony tells me that there is no significant difference in Velocity or SD between "Profile Crimp" and NO "Profile Crimp". All rounds are loaded using a Lyman 4 Die Set, with the "M" expander die and seperate seat and crimp dies. SD averages 11 with 5.5 grains of Unique and under 4 for 4.2 grains of Bullseye, using Win cases and primers and Penn Bullet Company cast SWC advertised at 158 grains and averaging 161 grains.
IF those bullets are that much oversized, it might be better to: 1. Swage the bullets down a bit before loading them in a separate swaging die.
2. Find 45 bullets that are a few .001s smaller.
squeeze crimp on auto loading rifle rounds and roll crimp for long straight walled handgun rounds. I have uses lee dies for 18 years and have had great success. I would imagine an aggressive taper crimp on a cast loads would squeeze them out of size. you can use the bullet seating die to taper crimp any load. that is why lee sells the factory crimp separate in most cases.
+imperialfragments -- Nothing like having years of experience to be able to really say something - Thanks for posting... FC
Try roll crimping .44WCF and .38 WCF cartridges, and you will destroy many of your cases because of their very fragile and thin walls, even .45 Colt does better with a factory crimp die. Be aware that Marlin even before being bought by the Freedom Group used .431 sized barrels for nominal .44 caliber cartridges, their rifles often tumble .429 bullets. When working with these pistol caliber rounds, a reading of history, and careful measurements of slugs from the bore, and chamber mouths is absolutely necessary for acceptable reloads. Colt revolvers, often have cylinder throats of .456 and even larger diameters, a hold over from the days of blackpowder and .454 barrels.
Donald Denison then taper crimping with the bullet seating die will work best for those cartridges
Donald Denison - Thanks for posting this... For additional supportive information, my 1894 44 mag Marlin that has the micro groove barrel has groove dimensionos of .432" - requires .433" bullets to shoot well. I also found that .430" bullets keyholed at 25 yards in that rifle. My recently made 1894 Marlin 44 mag with the Ballard cut rifling shoots .430s just fine. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to ya..!! FC
I size my bullets to .454 as my chamber throats are .4525, and my barrel is .4515. I have looked at the factory crimp dies and wondered if my bullets would be swedged to below .4525. It they will not and I may be buying one afterall. Thanks Fortunecookie45lc!
+Sean O'Brien - Have no fear - the Lee FCDs only iron out irregularities - no full out swaging of the bullets being crimped. Note that most of our rounds will chamber without the FCD (might have to give 'em a little shove to be sure). But with the FCD, we don't have to be concerned - the rounds will drop in with that snick that we like...Good shootin' to ya... FC
Forester co ax press??
Very impressive looking..
Sturdy...I'm going to price this to see what the damage would be...
Ah...
This hobby is wrought with temptations..;)
tjmooremusic - There are no perfect presses - I did a testing on what the Co-Ax provides for us - the bottom line is, with the best in line bullet seating dies, the Co-Ax gives us .0005" - .001" less run out when compared to using a Lee Custom Cast Press or RCBS Rockchucker. That isn't much and the difference would not be practically apparent until we cross the 500 - 600 yard mark. But if a reloader simply wanted to use what the AMU uses, then the Co-Ax is the way to go. Plus the cost difference amortized over years is not much. Best to ya, FC Steve
I have to suggest reloaders acquire and READ, Handbook For Shooters And Reloaders, Volumes 1 & 2 by P.O. Ackley. It is rather dry reading, but you will learn do's and don'ts if you pay attention. Many of the things this man did are beyond our capabilities and he did survive his experiments, but we very well could not. Ackley devoted a few pages to loading and shooting larger and smaller than bore size ammo, as much as .040 and the results are given in language we can all understand. Ackley was very likely one of the greatest experimenters in firearms.
+Ray C. -- I do have one of Ackley's books - read it, but can't even tell you the title until I get back home to check. He certainly was an innovator of his day - and his name on all those Ackley Improved and Ackley Magnums will etch his name and fame forever into our consciousness. He and Elmer Keith, another of the experimenters of the day, were divergent on some things though - Ackley was what Elmer considered a fan of the "needle blowers" while Ackley called Keith the one "in the big Stetson" who also like big slower bullets that crashed through. It all made for great reading and the selling of magazines and books - they knew that though. I'm going to leave shooting bullets +.04 to others for sure. Best Regards, FC
+Ray C. I love those books. I like also that Ackley tested to destruction, to prove a point.
I forgot to add they are 230 LRN at supposedly .452
ritesideofthefence 58 - Sounds pretty much standard for LRN 45s....Best to ya, FC Steve
FC, I finally decided to try the .45ACP Lee carbide crimp die as intended. I have had dies in .45ACP, 40S&W & 9mmMAK to use in the Lee Bulge Buster for several years.
It seems to me that going into the die it takes effort to push them up into the die, but why should it require the same effort to pull the round back out of the die ? My bullets are sized to .452.
Also the crimp seems to be very inconsistent. The case length that Lee claims doesn't matter gives very irregular crimp tension. Some rounds have to be TAPER crimped afterward to fit in a case gauge , RUGER Blackhawk convertible & COLT SAA.
Walks Fletcher - the whole idea of the LCFCD is to provide 45 ACP taper crimps that will chamber and function just fine as is. You shouldn’t have to run through any other dies to get that. Your 452 is proper. The tension into the die is first felt as a hesitation as the carbide ring removes the flair at the case mouth. Then tension is felt as the taper crimp is applied. You want some taper while keeping the shoulder proud for head spacing. Over doing the taper crimp can actually lose neck tension - not the idea. Of course, this tightness tension is also what you are feeling as the round is withdrawn from the die. And the carbide ring removes any bulges from the crimp as the round exits the die. Taper crimps from the Lee dies do provide consistent crimps as long as your cases are not longer than the max case length. If so trimming is necessary ( I haven’t found cases long enough to require the trimming) - might be your situation. Also, if bullets are past the allowable diameter, you will get excessive sizing during the crimping again causing loss of neck tension. As you have said, your 452 bullets are fine in this regard. Good reloadin’ to ya, FC Steve.
FortuneCookie45LC
I don't quite understand. My results are different than yours.
1) Lee claims case length is NOT important.
2) Lee claims It's NOT possible to over crimp using their Die.
3) Lee claims cartridges crimped in their Die will chamber in any firearm chambered in that specific cartridge.
4) I tried rounds crimped in their Die, both shorter & longer then trim-to-length & max-length.
5) I used a COLT Series 70 Gold Cup, COLT Series 80 Special Combat Gov't, RUGER Blackhawk Convertible, GLOCK 21 with stock bbl & WOLFE bbl, S&W M1917 and a DILLON case gauge.
Just not getting the results Lee says I'm supposed to be getting. Not all rounds drop into all chamber's as Lee and you claim. I even replaced the Lee cheap ass "lock" ring with a good quality RCBS lock ring. Set exactly as per Lee instructions. Die works great "Bulge Busting" but not so much for crimping.
WF - Don’t know what to say at this point. I have never trimmed any straight wall handgun brass because the length never exceeds max OAL And my cases all crimp fine with good performance (or I’d readily do things differently). And yes, it is very difficult to overcrimp with Lee factory crimp dies, but I don’t often push crimps to the stop with Lee dies. And as my videos show, cartridges that do not chamber all the way or are tight in chambers - run those through the Lee Factory Crimp Dies and same cartridges drop right in and drop right out. What I find is that the LFC dies work as advertised. And you are finding the exact opposite. Your only solution is to send the die back to Lee or simply do not use them. Good reloadin’ to ya...FC Steve
FC, I don't know why it's working out for me this way either. I used to trim .357, .44Mag & .357 Max back in the "olden days" 30-40yrs ago when I was shooting IMSHA. But those were REALLY HOT LOADS, actually overloads today. But I did it to maintain consistency. Something necessary for a good roll crimp.
FYI, while I was "farting around" checking those .45acp loads in everything I could find, I discovered the ACP cylinder from my blue Blackhawk Convertable would fit & index properly in both my old STS VAQUERO'S. Too bad RUGER REFUSES to fit an ACP cylinder to either of these guns. The B/C gap was .004 & .003 respectively. It's .006 on the BlackHawk it was made for.
Well good shooting to you,
Walks
Walks Flethcer - Interesting about your Convertible cylinders fitting your Vaqueros, but that certainly is possible. Congratulations to you on that discovery..!! Increases the versatility of all your guns. Good shootin' to ya, .003 - .004" is much better than .006 (although .006 is at their specs) FC Steve
Cookie, I wan't to buy lead bullets to reload for 44mag 45 colt and 357mag. I can't find a place that sells them.Can you recommend a good on line dealer. Thanks. U DA BEST!!!!!
I use Missouri Bullets for .44 and ive used Rim Rock bullets for .357 and 9mm but im moving to caoted bullets
Cast your own lead projectiles. Lee makes very good and affordable bullet molds. Lead is also pretty cheap. Even cheaper if you have a public outdoor range nearby, that you can go to after hours to collect spent projectiles down range. Or if not after hours, just a few when the range is cold and people are replacing targets. Just don’t be rude about it, and try not to be the last person down range and making people wait while you collect lead. That’ll make enemy’s for sure.
Slightly roll crimp. I know this will get a bunch of flack but remember something, the extractor hooks the cartridge as it feeds. If you can set your bullets out to just kiss the rifling and slightly roll crimp--problem solved. I know the 45 acp head spaces on the case mouth per say. But my experience with over 25 years of hand loading this cartridge leads me to think otherwise. As an example, measure case length on some of your factory brass after firing. The variation will lead you to my conclusion. How many people have you heard of trimming acp rounds because of excess head spacing?
Don't trim. Just sort brass to piles of the same length. Pistol brass as he stated does not stretch with exception a heavy roll crimp on magnum calibers can stretch older week brass sometimes. Then set the crimper to each length size as needed. This provides consistency if you are looking for the most accuracy. Consistency in each step is what it is all about. Including sizing bullets to the gun used.
There are some unscrupulous vendors [generally not name brand because they have too much too lose] and so you really do have to use precise calipers and to test size & weight bullets. When the powder ignites the chamber will develop 50,000 PSIand even 75,000 PSI before the bullet begins to move. Ed Matunas (Metallic Cartridge Reloading), Grennel & Clapp (Handgun Reloading) Steindler (Reloaders Guide) .. Lee (factory) publications, Hornady, Sierra Bullets publications are all RELIABLE. Lone individuals notions are not reliable (and you can lose body parts). There are no harmless calibers and it is very easy to screw up big time. Read until you understand and do it right. Be careful with powder, bullets, primers, measures, scales, crimps .. don't even DO IT if you are not prepared to do it right (because it can be bad for your health)
I have several boxes to OT laser cut lead round nose. None will drop through the 45colt cylinder on my blackhawk . I tapped them gently but they don’t go out the end of the cylinder. These are 230grn LRN will the Lee factory crimp die help or should we be sizing these or are they wrong all together. I don’t load lead. This is my first go round as I normally use extreme copper coated for my hand loads in 9mm 357 and 45acp. This lead stuff has me confused a bit.
ritesideofthefence 58 - If your bullets drop through, they are too small, or your cylinder throat openings are too big. Yes, you want them to be push through. Bullets .001-.002" bigger than your throats are optimal. If bigger than that, you will have to tap them through - you can still shoot those but max loads will have pressure spiking. Measuring your cylinder throats will tell you the size of bullets you need. Lee sizing dies can then be used to size your bullets to optimal. Your cylinder throats may very well be .449". You could have all your throats reamed to .451" to best shoot those .452" bullets (happens to be standard for lead bullet 45). A gunsmith could do that for you fairly cheap as they have the reamers already. We would have to buy those from Brownell's or Midway may stock those. Have a great day, FC Steve
What I cannot understand is why do the seated .452" bullets cause a bulge in the front of the case ? Surely in a fired case, the body of the case would be as big as the chamber and when seated there would be no increase in diameter, unless they were full length resized cases. Interesting that you can get a .458" bullet in your chamber, have you measured the chamber throats?
+Englishman French -- Thanks for your comment. As you say, it's not just the .458-459 bullet, but also the 2x case wall thickness that dropped into the chamber. The FCD really only ironed out spot bulges and irregularities - There was more felt with the big rounds than the others, but it wasn't any concerted sizing down that was felt when the big rounds went into the FCD. So it is amazing that the chambers take those. Goes back to Elmer Keith doing experimentation with his Colt SAA in 45 Colt - he was using 45-70 bullets also and he wasn't sizing them down back then - those rounds also chambered, and his hot loads blew the top of the cylinder off. I'm definitely not shooting .458-459 bullets through my BH that has .452 cylinder throats. Best Regards, FC
Englishman French
Even neck sizing dies reduce that part of the case sufficiently to cause a bulge when the bullet is seated. The neck sizing dies do not size the base and will not allow 100% drop in loading because of the normal variations found in even the finest of revolver cylinders and rifle chambers. The factory crimp die will swage out the minor imperfections encountered in reloading this caliber, indeed for .44WCF as well, now that the Clone manufacturers are using .429 barrels for all firearms of .44 nominal caliber. (.44WCF, .44 Special .44 Russian, and in .44 Magnum) The solution there is to use the .44 Special/.44 Magnum expanding balls instead of the .427 ball with the .44WCF dies, indeed with Marlin .44 Caliber rifles as well, one should use a bullet sized to at least .429 in order to get ammunition that will chamber well and shoot accurately. Don't even try to use .427 44WCF (44-40) unless you are loading for an original. Marlin has always used barrels of .430 to .431 so it is essential to use properly sized ammunition in their rifles, even those made since WWII are often found with barrels of .431 inches. Check the cylinder's chamber throats and size for them, for rifles use bore sized bullets if they will cycle through the rifle, it is not unusual to find a rifle with a tight throat and a bore that is oversized for the chamber, the solution there is to open up the throat of the rifle chamber to allow bore sized bullets to chamber. History is an important subject when dealing with pistol caliber rifles and revolvers especially. Look to both Mike Venturino's writing, and especially to what Elmer Keith had to say about these situations, information is a very valuable commodity..
i dont have many lee dies and i hate the extra binding and noise from the factory crimp die but it works well for iffy bullets. i dont see this happening at all unless they use over sized bullets and then the problem is with the caster or buyer of the bullets not the crimp die. i like my dillon crimp dies but if im lazy and just want a couple thousand rounds to blow through in an afternoon i will use the lee dies or when im loading my seconds from poor casting practices :).
+Andrew James -- Wow, Andrew...I thought there were times that I shot a lot...but 2K rounds in an afternoon without having an automatic weapon is impressive...!! We find good uses for the dies that work for us...Have a great day, FC
+Andrew James I'm not sure I agree with you on this one. Case thickness has become extraordinarily inconsistent with certain calibers and as such the LFCD can make functioning ammo that was not loaded improperly or cast to a wrong size. For instance I size all of my .45 ACP's to .451 and still (using only Federal SPP cases) I have rounds that will not fully chamber because they are tight. I do not remember this being an issue until 10 years or so ago but it certainly is now.
+FortuneCookie45LC actually i have a couple select fire weapons but they are for combat and dont see much practice as my sporting weapons lol. i find my self loading, shooting only to load come home dump my brass in the tumbler and load some more and with cheap powders like titgroup i can really enjoy my hobby and with my new powder coating technique between me and a friend 2,000 is actually easy and very fun running real life drills. but this is where the dillon 500 comes into its own lol. when you can cast and load 1,000 rnds for under $40 dollars the question becomes why not and with rocky mountain realoading theirs no excuse to the non caster ;). i blow off premium jhp's for $115 per 1,000 lol just because i like their performance at +p pressures. try them rmr is where its at for good tmj, fmj and pulled maned brand bullets XD. i would say the holy grail for jacketed bullets.
+Nathan Metzner -- Doesn't have to be an issue - within parameters (like your 45), the Lee FCD works very well without doing any swaging or loss of neck tension. It's only when outside of parameters that weirdness happens. I recall seeing Hickok 45 do extra pushing to be sure his rounds were seated in his revolver cylinder. If he used the Lee FCD, the rounds would have all snicked in with that good snick sound that we all like - no extra finger pushing required. I thought of asking him that, but considered that his gun was just getting fouling buildup from all the shooting he was doing...the FCD can't help that... Best to ya, FC
+Andrew James -- Yes, you remind me of happier times - we used to reload to fill up the hoppers and then just dump them into a Border Shift bag in bulk approx 750 rounds - heavy rascal. With the FCD, we didn't have to case gauge every round (unless shooting a match). My own gun is a Colt Series 70 fully comped out and it was not real particular - I used good magazines, and it fed everything I loaded for it...Favorite load was 5.2 grains of Promo and the 210 grain Lee long nose SWC or the same bullet purchased in moly coated persuasion from Great Western Bullets - made major and ran the compensator the best. Good shootin' to ya, FC
I noticed just the other day that Hornady brass is shorter in the 45 Colt. Does anyone know why?
+Don Eime Only in the FTX bullet as far as I know
probably because they want to be different and have daddy issues. ive noticed hornady brass sucks and i hate it. both reasons might be why but probably because i hate their over priced, pay for the brand, tarnish to easy and cant clean easily suck brass. i hope this helped and now you know i dont like hornady brass or for that matter their over priced bullets and chinese made loading supplies. their older stuff is good but now they seem gimmicky and are riding on the hornady name.
Andrew James don't hold back brother! Tell me how you really feel. LOL... Frankly, however, I think you're exactly right.
Don Eime LOL
+Don Eime --Yep, those Hornady 45 Specials are really annoying...Have a great day to ya, FC
Size the same bullet to 452 and run back to back chrono with the fat ones. That might show
loss of neck tension and acccuracy. Also ya never chked the inside diameter of the pulled bullet cases to see what the tension was... Inconclusive IMO
+aracp -- Thanks for noticing that, but I didn't do that since the bullets were essentially the same size after pulling as before they were seated. So that if the bullets were smaller, then the swaging occurred and the loss of neck tension would be very much suspected. Since there was only a bit of increase in the usual bulge correction feedback from the press and die with these rounds ( no major sizing being felt), the essentially same bullet diameter after pulling was not a surprise. Now, if even larger bullets were seated, then the FCD would have been doing some major swaging indeed, but that would have been in the realm of the ridiculous - these were big enough already. Have a great day, FC
+aracp -- Addendum reply - had to go back to work so this is delayed getting to you...the reason this is a sensitive issue is that, in my own experience, there was the loading of bullets many years ago now, that must have been on the big side in the 45 ACP. The bullets seated as usual, but when I ran the rounds through my Lee FCD to taper crimp the rounds, instead of the usual happening, the bullets would go into the FCD and you could feel more sizing than usual, when the round was pulled out of the die, the bullet that was seated a little farther out of the case was being grabbed by the die and there was enough loss of neck tension to pull the bullet out of the case on round withdrawl. I haven't had that happen again since, and I cannot get it to happen on demand even with these oversized 45-70 bullets in the 45 Colt...strange, but always in my memory...and way too complicated to mention in the video... Best to ya, FC
Never had that happen with me concerning LRN in ACP involving the FCD. Thanks
My Lee 9mm FCD was pulling bullets out of loaded rounds. Bullets had been sized down by the FCD and were scrap. I switched to a taper crimp die.
Question, I tried to use my lee factory crimp die and it Reduces neck tension, what am I doing wrong , loading 45 acp
randy I had the same thing happen after using the 45acp fcd, I’ve since ordered dedicated taper crimp dies
The bullet would set back .030” on chambering, it did NOT do that after seating - I also had the crimp completely backed off
This was using a popular brand of plated bullets
randy Rexroad - You did nothing wrong. I've had that happen with 45 ACP also. Seems that when we have a bullet like that has less bearing surface and the bullet is on the large side - we did not size 'em. We can actually get enough swaging on the bullet and case that the case springs back off the bullet so that neck tension is lost. The bullet can be simply pulled out of the case with the fingers. What we have to do is size those bullets down to the correct diameter (usually .452") and then proceed. On bullet seating, there will only be the hints of sizing and swaging happening. Then the FCD is fulfilling its design. With proper sizing of the cast bullet, the seating will achieve the correct neck tension retention and the FCD will not reduce that when it applies the crimp and irons out irregularities that would cause functioning difficulties. Good reloadin' to ya, FC Steve
I think that the mixed results here have to do with thickness of our brass walls as well as possible deviations in the diameter of every individual carbide ring.
Slightly roll crimp. I know this will get a bunch of flack but remember something, the extractor hooks the cartridge as it feeds. If you can set your bullets out to just kiss the rifling and slightly roll crimp--problem solved. I know the 45 acp head spaces on the case mouth per say. But my experience with over 25 years of hand loading this cartridge leads me to think otherwise. As an example, measure case length on some of your factory brass after firing. The variation will lead you to my conclusion. How many people have you heard of trimming acp rounds because of excess head spacing?
Cookie.. Just a foot note, I think it would be Great if we as Subscribers started a fund drive for your channel to support you to acquire a Machine Rest for Load testing (Ransom Rest), Instead of accuracy testing at 12 1/2 yards and 25 yards, You could test loads in pistols all the way out to 50 or 100 yards.. I have found that even doing 25 yard test really doesn't do that much reveling the accuracy of pistols or ammo.. The real test is at 50.. One of the things Bullseye Guys say "It's not how they shoot at the short line, It's how they do at the fifty".. I Believe that would be your Crown Jewel. Good day to Ya,, Thorsaxe777
+Thorsaxe777 -- When I was working up to shooting NRA Bullseye, I discovered that I could shoot credibly one handed at 25 yards, but got the occasional flyer. That flyer happened every 10 rounds or so, and I couldn't get rid of them - something about the bad nerve in my right arm from playing years of tennis. Even at 25 yards, those flyers were immediate losers. At 50 yards, those would have been unmitigated disasters. I was working up to the 50 yard line, but never got there. NRA Bullseye has to be the toughest handgun sport bar none. I just shot action and steel instead, run and gun stuff - and shot bullseye for precision work. I could shoot High Power Rifle better than NRA Bullseye so I did some competing in High Power. Today, my ulnar nerve is even worse in my right arm. If I shoot one handed, I have to shoot between the flares. That Ransom Rest would be the real deal - I have never seen one being used at any of the many ranges that I have frequented over all these years...plus I understand that the individual gun adapters are on the pricey side as well...Any shooter that brought one to a range would attract some real interest for sure... But I would not expect the viewers to do anything like that - it would not be appropriate... Best to ya, FC
Well cookie, I feel that a Man that does what you do, Step by step puts his nose to the grindstone to discover what is a gadget, what is a gismo and what works. Should have something like that available to him, I think about what fun a guy like you would have having one of those, Not as a Toy, but part of your reloading equipment and You tube tools. I would Talk to the Club that you belong to and see if they would agree to fund one for the Members on a check out basis But never leave the club. About 20 years ago I bought my Rock River Custom 1911, It came with a less than one and a half accuracy guarantee at 50 yards. well I Gave it a run for the money with the ransom rest with 20 shots of Federal Gold Medal Match 185 gr. They all shot through the same hole in less than a inch at 50. But, here is the Kicker, I reloaded the Brass that was shot and returned to the Ransom rest and found that my 185 H&G loads with 3.8 grs of Bullseye trumped that Gold medal stuff, and here is another kicker that was a plus. I shot Mixed Brass and found that cases don't make a difference ether. same result's. anyway I would talk to the range board and maybe put it up to a vote. Good things to Ya Cookie..
+Thorsaxe777 -- A couple of the Bullseye shooters that I regularly see at the range and you would make a fantastic panel for a video...Some of the topics for discussion would include the changes in equipment over the years, where the sport is now and where it's going, current thoughts on the national importance of citizen marksmanship... I'd have a field day moderating the thing...But I'll have to research to see if that's already been done... Have a great day, FC
Sounds Good cookie.. I will put my two bits in if you want me to. Good day Cookie.
+Thorsaxe777 -- Thanks for your willingness - don't know if the other shooters are camera shy or anything -- I might just be daydreaming. -- TV shows can do that; they have producers that look at the budget, bring the principle people together, and then the directors assemble the supportive personnel, take over and get it done. The thing needs to be sold to the advertisers. If done as a phone llink...there is no show there...Best to ya, FC
Cookie, I was going to ask what that was.
+Louis Leoncini -- That's the Lee Factory Crimp Die in the Forster Co-Ax press...Best to ya, FC
Cookie, I know that was the lee die & Co-Ax press. I was going too ask what was that cut on your hand then you told us. Thank you LOVE THE VIDS.
+Louis Leoncini -- Oh, that...!! I just didn't want you viewers out there to think that my wife Jan bit me...!! Best to ya, FC
Hornady seems to be consistent with their 'short cases' across all calibers they make in (revolver) pistol rounds. Their .357 brass is always about .025" shorter than any other brand of brass, no matter who makes it. I cull all mine into a container until I get enough to make a run of 50 to 100, then set everything up to properly size, flare, seat the bullet and crimp that batch.
Hay I just had a thought, they have case trimmers for a reason, as you fire a case 1,2,3 etc times the case stretches and you have to trim them or else they won’t chamber. My dum idea, if the case is short to begin with then you won’t have to trim them. After I typed this I saw how much of a stupid thought it is, I sent it anyway, I didn’t want to delete it and I wanted to let everyone know that even not so bright people read theses 🤡things🤪
@@kenneydin I think case stretch on a straight walled cartridge like .357 is minimal. More than anything else, I've seen nickle cases (mostly, but some brass) split from 'hot loads' in old guns. Now, necked rifle cases is a whole nother tale....
The Lee instruction sheet does NOT claim that if the rounds chamber they are good to shoot. That's a logical fallacy you've created from their words that if the rounds are good to shoot they will chamber.
459 i think is more for 45/70 not 45 colt
He says that at the beginning of the video, this was for discussion sake. However, shooting .45-70 bullets out of a .45 Colt was how Elmer Keith got famous (by blowing up a Colt SAA!) Good shooting sir!
Disagree. The ones that wouldn't chamber were ones that weren't as concentric as the others, visibly. Of course accuracy would probably be poor and I wouldn't suggest firing oversized bullets with stout loads and you may find cylinder leading as bullets are swaged down in the cylinder throat. When using a soft lead bullet it will be swaged a couple times before it leaves the barrel. Before it gets to the cylinder throat, again in the forcing cone, when the bullet is engraved with the rifling. When you squeeze a bullet down, where does that diameter go? The bullet becomes longer. Not so hard to understand.
Robert kubrick