IT'S NOT THAT HARD! lightsaber/sword FIGHT SCENE basics
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ย. 2024
- Here are the fundamental principles for GOOD sword fight scene.
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Petition for The Old Republic Fight Scene Autopsies.
Seconded
Absolutely
I need that
@@primeemperor9196 "A man can have anything...."
We need ones on all the trailers for both kotor and tor
What makes a good sword/lightsaber fight scene? Well, having a competent stunt coordinator helps, for one...
Having actual fencers like Bob Anderson and Christopher Lee around helped too.
@@harbl99 My favorite factoid about Christopher Lee is that on the set of LotR Peter Jackson was describing the particular sound he wanted Saruman to make after getting stabbed in the back. After the jobs he'd done, Christopher Lee knew exactly what kind of sound a man makes when that happens and corrected him.
@BeaglzRok1 Christopher Lee was an absolute savage, AND a gentleman. 😎🧐
Also having actors who are comfortable with a sword and are ok with getting smacked in the face with a prop. Part of the reason why the sequel era fights had such massive, telegraphed, misaimed attacks was specifically because the actors were afraid of getting hit.
Having characters we care about is a good start too. Shad, did you do the review of the Polish sword scene that was so bloody fast?
What makes a good sword fight in media: The story tricks me into believing that the characters are as good as the story says they are, and that the characters are trying to attain the goal that the story says they are.
Or the swings that they block, if not blocked, would have actually connected to the target.
You know, JUST AS A START. Like that's a pretty good start I'd say.
Also long shots instead of multiple flash cuts, to see what Is happening
it's a form of dialogue and should advance the story. Who is confident, who is scared? Who has the most skill. Is a character fighting defensively or aggressively? Are they trying to win or want to escape? That kind of stuff. Don't have your supposedly overpowered character duck at swings that aren't even aimed at them just because someone thought it looked cool in some different fight scene they saw somewhere...
@@haku8135 This is part of the " the characters are trying to attain the goal that the story says they are."... There are cases where, maybe, one of the characters ISN'T actually trying to kill (or even harm) the other character that they're fighting. So, maybe it's a training session. Where the student IS actually trying to hurt/kill the master, but the master is just messing with the student (Kill Bill comes to mind)... There, it might actually be important for the teacher to NOT be in measure with the target.
Alternatively, maybe the student isn't in measure because they're still the student... And they don't yet know how to be in measure yet. The sword fight scene (or frankly ANY fight scene) should serve the story and the characters. That's not to say that you can't have fight scenes drive the story (plenty of anime do that; I'd even argue things like John Wick do that)... But, even in those cases, the story is still setup to accomplish that. Let's just take John Wick; yes, John Wick is truly about the almost universally excellent fight/shooting scenes. However, it ONLY works because of the story. John IS the ultimate assassin. If John was just some bumbling fool, or a newly trained assassin... If there wasn't a REASON behind his skill... The fight scenes wouldn't have near the impact. Moreover, the first John Wick (and even the later ones) do a good job getting us to empathize with John. We know why he's fighting and killing. The movies get us on board with his story of revenge... And even, later, his story of essentially a 1 man defensive war (he was attacked first, so he's defending himself and attacking back). Those same fight scenes wouldn't have the same impact without the story and the plot behind them.
@@TrueFork I literally just watched an episode of My Hero Academia that shows all of this perfectly.
It's not sword fighting, but it is fighting. Season 4, the hero classes are having a mock battle competition. Teams in Class A vs teams in Class B.
One character, Bakugo, is very powerful, but he's a loudmouthed hothead that looks down on everyone.
Here's the thing though, he hypes himself up so much, because he earns it, he's VERY good. He's still growing as a character though, he WORKS with his team. He's determined to have a 4-0 match, flawless, no injuries. His power is explosion, his sweat is explosive basically, and he can rocket all over the place. His strategy is to blast forward, and when his team's scout finds the enemy, he charges ahead at them full throttle and starts blasting. But he's constantly appraising EVERYTHING, he doesn't have blind spots because he's keeping track of it all. His team runs into a trap, he flies back and blows it up. He gets trapped, he just knows his team will bust him out, then he doesn't hesitate, he's full throttle back into the fight the moment he's free.
The enemy team cannot adapt, the match lasts less than 5 minutes. It's a great episode, it's such a brief fight, but it's PACKED with how the characters have all grown. This entire team battle arc is really good for that actually.
MHA is just really good, go and watch it instead of this garbage Disney is calling Star Wars.
Corridor made one of the best light saber duels to this day with their „To the death“ short.
It's good, no doubt. My biggest nitpick with it though, is that he choreographer said that light sabers are light weight. Technically, they're not. The stronger you are with the force, the lighter they become.
That was done AMAZINGLY well
@aaronhanson9486 There is no real need for the force to use a sword, even a laser/plasma sword. All the weight is in the handle, the blade is nothing compared to steel. And as slow as blaster bolts are, a Droid or meth using human could block them. Baseballs are thrown faster.
@@aaronhanson9486 It depends on the timeframe. When the OT was being made, lightsabers were very heavy due to the amount of power running through them. That's why Luke always fought with two hands, he needed it to control the weapon. Vader's use of one hand was him demonstrating how vastly superior he was to Luke, being able to handle a saber with a single hand while Luke required both.
That changed as we got to the Prequels, where the idea shifted to the blades have no weight at all, everything is just in the hilts and you could whip a blade around as fast as you wanted so long as you could move the hilt that fast.
As time went on it changed again once we started getting TCW and the new canon stuff. Now there's a combination of the two. All the weight is in the hilt, but the blade has a gyroscopic resistance to being moved due to the plasma of the blade circulating around. It took training to overcome this.
That in turn developed into the revised version where it was your personal bond with your lightsaber that determined the ease of use. It is exaggerated with the Darksaber which actively resists anyone not bonded to it even if they aren't force users, such as Mando struggling to move it and finding it stupidly heavy, Sabine having struggled with it at first before it got lighter for her, and Bo not having any issues with it at all.
I don't know, I was completely underwhelmed but their version. I am not big on focusing on "realism" too much in my fantasy. It has never made any sense to me that people will complain about something in fantasy not being realistic. Moving objects with your mind, reading peoples mind, mind controlling people or shooting lighting from your fingers are all extremely unrealistic things, but people love it anyway. You know what else is INSAELY unrealistic? Lightsabers. Just the energy needed to create a plasma blade like that would torch anyone using it everyone else a good distance around it. It's fine not to like something, but doing it for not being "realistic" is silly when the rest of your fantasy disregards real life constantly.
I love how coordinated two experienced fencers seem to be. "For example if you present your blade" and after two dings they end in a beautiful bind position as if they just practiced the choreography. No words, just swords.
That is why Christopher Lee(Count Dooku) trained in the fencing style for his lightsaber design was made for that specific fighting style.
@@JustTooDamnHonest specific, pacific is an ocean
Spears and War Hammers/Axes are cooler but I understand.
@@NumptyMcGlumpty I corrected it.
ALSO, how you FILM a Fight Scene is VERY important! The proper placement of the camera can make an off target attack appear to be a kill shot.
In the theatrical context, fights are designed to appear more “real” from the angle and perspective of the audience, if you were standing on stage, you suddenly see their strikes aren’t as close as they appear.
You mean obscuring everything by trees and darkness isn’t a good idea?
I remember Living Anachronism (who is a stage combatant) talked about that very thing. Actors do have to be safe, but the trick is to make it look like they’re actually trying to kill each other, and part of that is viewing angles.
@@afrogunso47 - W-What about shaky cam? How is the audience going to feel like they're ...y'know... *IN* the fight with the protag?
smdh. I want to SEE the fight, not get motion sickness and eye-fatigue while trying to track the fight.
@@gameragodzilla Jill Bearup has some great fight scene breakdowns. She does stage combat as well.
"I never see anyone start a fight this way, testing each other and finding their reach..."
Yes you do, Luke versus Vader Empire Strikes Back.
I think they're talking about modern productions
You could also argue that Obi-Wan vs. Vader in A New Hope only get as far as this testing stage, and that's why people sometimes call that fight "two old men poking each other with sticks." Their fight was barely starting when Luke and the others arrived at the ship; once he saw them, Obi-Wan realized the fight was unnecessary, and he ended it before it really began.
I was thinking the same thing
Shhh. You’re making him seem like his opinion is wrong.
@@ettchaAbsolutely
I think the best purpose of using an overswing is to show they're either untrained or heavily exhausted. While exhausted it's common to make exaggerated moves
Oh, regarding Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon vs Maul, there's actually more to it than just the hits being a lot closer. That fight was filmed with high-speed cameras because Liam Neeson, Ewan McGreggor and Ray Park had rehearsed that scene to the point where they could go through it faster than an audience would find believable. A lot of the awkward telegraphing and pre-dodging in that fight scene was actually due to the footage being slowed down combined with each actor already knowing the choreography by heart. And it works watsonianly as well, as you could argue that in-setting it's a display of force precognition.
Didn't know that; that makes the Prequel Trilogy even better than the damn Sequels!
Yep. Hayden, Ewan and Liam all learned hot to actually fight. And the choreography was made accounting for actual martial artists.
And people cope hard saying the Acolyte surpasses the Prequels in lightsaber dueling. Absolutely insane.
@@sparking023 I think you mean Ray Parks, who played Darth Maul. Hayden wasn't cast until Ep 2.
@@kharilane1340Hayden was still taught in episode 3 so I think he’s just commenting broadly
This definitely deserves a compressed version on Shadlands channel.
Compressed? Shut the front door 😂
Nah, he wants that youtube dollary doos
@@derrickstorm6976...Okay?
Ryan vs dorkman was peak youtube
Oh man, that takes me back. Anyone know how Dorkman is doing these days? I know he was in a serious accident years back that messed him up.
@@VegetaLF7 I wish I knew
They were good but there’s another i like more, i think they were competing ina duel video competition, theres a bad guy with red double blade going against 2 guys with traditional lightsabers ina parking lot, the manson cover to sweet dreams was playing in the background it was really intense.
@@ryggamortis7594 I believe that video was called “Ferocity"
Fun fact: the guy who made the music track for RVD2 went on to do music for multiple Star Wars video games
I'm honestly happy the algorithm recommended this video to me. I never get to see the newest videos when they come out and this time it showed right when I opened youtube, straight out of the oven. Super good content Shad!
Man almost like that guy nick gallard knew what he was doing
It's Gillard
He's pretty much the inventor of the classic fast paced flashy lightsaber choreography we see today.
The original lightsaber fight between Obi Wan and Darth Vader in "A New Hope", some people say it was boring. But it was the most realistic lightsaber duel in Star Wars
Especially the part where Obi-Wan did one of the greatest spin attack across the entire galaxy
@@fransiscayulianita68 can't tell if that's sarcasm, but he did pull a few "trick shots" even back then lol
There's actually a great reimaging of this fight here on youtube. Someone did a great job with it.
@@MrBottlecapBill saw that, big fan
Obi-Wan v Maul in Rebels. They start in guards, play a bit of mental chess, testing each other, and when it finally kicks off proper, the fight is done in 3 moves.
There is a really good sword fight in jet lis Fearless. Jet Li and his opponent anthony delongis had little time to rehearse so they improvised most of it, and alot of the time actually tried to hit eachother. Great fight.
Honestly, a lot of the issue also lies with how willing to train the actors are. If you slogged through Ahsoka, you could see a physical difference in how much more skilled Hayden Christiansen was compared to Rosario Dawson. He legitimately looked like he was struggling to slow down to not bowl her over.
Compared to the extremely athletic fights of the prequels where the actors worked their butts off and were often trained martial artists (Ray Park being the most well-known example), the Disney stuff, with a few exceptions, tends to look like untrained amateur theater kids with little to no actual fighting experience.
The issue there is also a biological fact that is not aligned with Disney's political agenda, namely that on average men are just stronger than women.
It is true that weapons are great equalizers and a skilled female fencer can overcome a less trained men with a sword, but if the skills are comparable, the outcome is obvious.
In this case of course we're talking only about actors performing a choreography on a stage, but it is still challenging for a 130 pounds woman in her mid 40s (for as fit as she is) to keep up with 6ft1' man in good shape.
I was so disappointed when Asohka squared off with Elsbeth again. I expected much more and better out of that fight. Diana Lee Inosanto is martial arts royalty as her father is Dan Inosanto, one of the best known fight choreographers/coordinators in Hollywood. He's a kali/arnis expert. Diana is also very trained and has done her own fight choreography and training. Done her own martial arts movies. A season finale final battle from such a legend should have been better. I feel like they had more time to work on it, certainly way more budget. I felt like we got better out of the first fight between them in Mando, in terms of skill and pacing. Even Ahsoka vs Skol at the observatory was better for as short as it was.
The choreographed moves in Ahsoka were pretty decent on paper. But you could tell they weren't trained enough. They were slow and sloppy. Didn't swing with confidence. It made otherwise cool moves look goofy.
I think the Anakin vs Ashoka fight kind of works because he’s slightly slowing down for her the point of the fight was to show her that she’s not like her master and is her own person and has her own destiny
@@ROMANTIKILLER2 Disney as a company couldn't care nearly as much about "political agenda" as money. It costs a lot of money to get people to train actors to fight, because it takes time. And if they can save that money, they will. It's about money, not some "agenda". C'mon, stay in reality. Your critisism has so much more weight when it's thought trough and it's based on reality, not some lame whining on "agenda"
Dragons. Dragons make a good fight scene.
Disclaimer: only when competent people are in charge of the dragons.
Frieren dragon fight scene went hard.
How about wild dragon fights? Do those exist?
@@ImaginatorJoren
GOOD IDEA THANK YOU ❤
What dragon fight scene is competent where the dragon doesn't win super easily?
@@Maegnas99 When you see two dragons fight
It is genuinely great to have professionals breaking this stuff down, instead of just randos hating. Truly great video
its almost like the prequels stunt coordinator was trained to teach the choreography and the actors trained how to use their blades and still make it look flashy.
I feel like there several considerations on good sword fight within the context of a story. It doesn't always need to be the best fight ever and this is general advice for what I feel is missing in a lot of Hollywood productions.
1) Characterisation - How a character fights needs to tell the audience something. If you have a character who relies on their strength than show them maybe swinging a larger weapon with larger effort. Putting some real effort into each swing, trying to over power the opponent. That tells me something about them. If you have a character who is selfish or doesn't want to die, have them pushing other people in the way. If you have a character who is overly arrogant, have them yawn as they're swinging or swinging the weapon lazily as if they don't view X character as a threat. If a character doesn't want to kill, have them pierce their sword in the shoulder or legs (anywhere non lethal) and the opposite for a character who wants X character dead, they better be trying to kill. Don't be afraid to display how your character is feeling.
2) Stakes - Stakes should more often than determine length of fight (not always but be careful, long fights drain audiences and short fights against big bad can be a let down, annoying the audience). if it's a fight for the end of the world, your hero character better be putting every ounce of their soul into the fight. They could be getting desperate, angry, scared or whatever emotion you want and using every skill or technique they've been shown to know. You can display emotions within a fight without using a single words. I know Disney hates that but you can do it. If it's just random grunt no5, yeah sure make it short but at least make the fight mean something to the story whether that is plot, character or world building wise.
3) Various techniques and skills - Giving the hero a problem to overcome in a fight is always good. A hero who wins 100& of their match-ups without real effort is boring. If you have a character with daggers versus a character plated in armour, make the dagger guy have to tire them out or use weak points in the armour. Maybe it's a powered armour that has a fuel source, whatever just make each fight fun, immersive and impactful. In a world like Star wars or general fantasy you have access to the force or "magic" you can get real creative with your fights.
This can be extremely important, especially with story heavy fights. My surprising example for this is actually using John Wick as an example. The way that he fights and handles his weapons and gear give him this unique design and habits that people pick up on and associate with him, and only him. So definitely something to consider.
A “come on I can do this” nervous jitter/exhale after an early good engagement would be a good addition to a fight scene
Anyone who has seen any of the videos from Adorea Olomouc knows for a fact that realistic and even historical fight scenes are absolutely possible.
What makes a good weapon-based fight scene? People who are experienced in the craft giving you assistance, or just hiring one of them to perform the movements. There's a reason why Darth Maul and his fight scenes are considered LEGENDARY. There's a reason why Dooku's fighting style looks so damned good. People who know what they're doing will always make things look better.
Also Christopher Lee was a trained swordsman so that helped.
@@rpgadventurer32 Exactly. We need more like him. Hire more like that.
3:05 This reminds me of a particular scene in the later seasons of Star Wars Rebels that almost seems anticlimactic, but there's something special about those few seconds
Ironically, the place I’m most likely to see “realistically short” duels in movies are Japanese samurai movies where the sword duels are more like quick draw cowboy duels in Westerns than more Hollywood style sword fights. Makes sense given how much cross pollination there was between the two genres.
If there is a story being told through the action or even a series of problems and solutions like a real fight accompanied by good choreo then youve achieved your goal to an extent
Well done, Shad and Tyranth!
It makes the Anakin-Obi fight better when you remember they're precogs and have super powers. It explains the movements.
It makes the Acolyte fight *much* worse when you remember they're supposed to be Jedi.
princess bride. greatest sword duel of all time.
The fact they never seem to mention it is just sad.
I think The Court Jester from 1956 was better, funnier too
i love the princess bride's westley & inigo sword fight. i really wish shad would do a fight scene autopsy on it.
@@Wyldchild777 Jilll Bearup has an EXCELLENT breakdown vid called (Inigo vs. Westley: Princess Bride Perfection)
@@Wyldchild777 no. i dont. it is beyond critique.
As a karate guy, spinning back kicks and spinning back fists are definitely useful. They're usually better for sparring than actual combat or self defense, but they're still good techniques to have in your arsenal.
You usually want to do a spinning back kick when your opponent is retreating, or if he commits to a strike. For example, a common kick combo you learn is a round house kick into a spinning back kick. If your first kick lands, or your opponent dodges, he's moving backwards, so you don't have to worry about presenting your back, and the round house goes fairly naturally into the spinning back kick.
Another thing we do in karate is ipon kumite, or one step fighting. They are counters to presented attacks. The eighth ipon kumite is a spinning back kick in response to a stepping reverse punch. The leg on the side the punch is coming steps ~180° around the front, which moves your head/body out of the way of the attack, and then the stationary leg kicks.
Oddly enough, we rarely did any spinning back fists in karate. We learned a few kata (fighting forms) with them, but we never actually drilled any techniques or combos with spinning back fists.
I think I've pulled off a spinning back fist exactly once. I've also pulled off a forward backfist once or twice. One was purely on reflex. Was doing some light sparring with a buddy and he left his head open. My hand shot out, pretty much by itself and hit him at the right temple. It wasn't super hard but it had that really fast snappy action, enough that everybody around heard the SMACK! Glasses were messed up too. I felt so bad.
Great shot, still felt terrible.
What makes a good fight above all else is consistency. That includes the movement, characters power scaling, the person's abilities, the environment and the universe's world building. It doesn't always have to be in the realm of realism all the time. This is why so many enjoy anime battles even though they're not realistic all the time. What makes them good and any fight enjoyable is consistency. It has to at least be or convincingly convey the illusion consistency. If it has that people are able to buy into it. And even more enjoy it. As it allows people to immerse themselves into even a fantastical scenario.
I don't think consistency is the correct word here. Even if we took the best Acolyte fight and made everything similar quality to that (= consistent), it would still be bad.
@@tabull8180yeah it would all be inconsistent then. For instance the characters in the fight supposedly intend to kill each other. But they blatantly miss or fail to execute when given the opportunity. This is inconsistent with the presumed motive for the characters at hand. The characters are inconsistent. The fights are inconsistent. Consistency with motives and rules is needed.
@@tabull8180 Consistency is the right word. But when I am using it, I do not mean just in the sense of fighting tactics but also motivation and power scaling. The Acolyte fails because it is not consistent in any category from character motive, to fighting choreography, to power scaling.
@@Merisu_Sheep Okay yes, I see what you mean. To argue that, while still possible, would be going to the level of detail which this show is never capable of reaching. Therefore I decide to agree with you.
@@tabull8180 Honestly if the show simply stayed consistent with Star Wars, it would've not been in this problem in the first place. Hell its not even consistent to Disney Star Wars. That's how bad it is.
My list would be:
- stakes/consequences
- emotional connection with the chatacters and therefore the outcome
- choreography (can be realistic but depending on the tone of the show doesn't have to. but it has to fit.)
Edit: There's also the consideration of safety. Not so much with lightsabres but with other weapons. And many actors have little to no fighting experience. We aren't in the times any more where it wasn't unusual that many actors had years of experience of at least stage fencing.
I find "Do not overswin!" funny when I remember your cutting tests. Same with "Hold a guard position". Yes, they are cutting tests but why not avoid forming bad habits? Also makes control more important for the test.
That strange and somewhat useless "guard" position was also used in Ghost of Tsushima. No idea if they got it from some samurai movie.
I think a reverse grip is used in some knife fighting styles.
You can't only do reverse cuts with a lightsabre, you could also do side cuts. Just saying.
Think another thing is utilizing camera tricks correctly to fool the audience as it were. As Mike Starwalker talks about in some of his choreography videos, certain camera angles can make attacks appear closer to an opponent than they actually are.
@@AEsir_Goji That's true. Also we are watching these fights (usually) in 2D which allows for a lot more tricks to play.
Camera positioning and cuts are a whole other topic. Both can be used to great effect or just be confusing.
They actually mentioned the cutting tests. Which are specifically used to maximize abuse on the weapon. Or they are just destroying something for fun. Overswinging in both cases is justified. I assume they would be ok with overswinging to cut wood in a movie just not in a technical sword fight.
@@jimnoel3025 I differentiate between the cutting tests amd destruction tests. I see no problem with it for the latter but using it for the former "to make a tough cut" is wrong IMHO. Either you and the blade can make it or you can't. Using useless/unrealistic techniques is deceiving.
Good movies take risks, good fight scenes take risks. There are trained first responders and there should be a choreographer to train the actors. These fight scenes are also not first try, it takes weeks to months of practice before filming begins. Safety is not an excuse for bad choreography.
Even though they weren't the best choreographed, one of the things that made the original trilogy's fight scenes so tense was how much manoeuvring and feinting they did versus actual attacking. You really felt they were trying to get the measure of each other, and that they were desperate not to make a mistake or give away their intentions, because to do so would be fatal. Compare that to the non-stop spinning overswings of the Disney stuff and it's just so banal and wearisome to watch, just meaningless action with no sense of danger or a chance for the audience to breathe. Knowing how to pace your action is crucial to maintaining the tension level of a fight scene. More isn't always better.
Well also characters were more interesting so it was obviously more tense because you had an interest in the fate of the characters.
Love the content. Love the energy. Love the actual martial arts.
It’s amazing how a few blokes with a camera and a carnival castle can actually have more creativity in their pretend combat then the most successful studio in human history.
Keep up the good work, boys! This is the best Star Wars content we will get
Man, I forgot about Ryan vs Dorkman. Those were amazing fights.
This is why I always come back to Shad if I’m thinking of doing lightsaber choreography
Love the video! Many good points.
In regards to the static binds: Lore (written pre-Disney, post OG trilogy) describes the lightsaber as laser sword-like but is only fully mastered by an extension of the "force" of the user.
The lightsaber has both attraction and repulsion specifically against other lightsabers depending on the intent of the force users.
In total immersion of the world-building, it is supposed to be a mental/magic/force battle between two wizards with magic sticks regardless of them being referenced as Knights.
This excuses many of the static binds as a bid for mental control/leverage of force power. It also disregards the major need for a crossguard (minimal sliding), as well as why the lightsabers bounce off of eachother like in the Obi/Anakin fight.
Finally, it gives incentive to aim for the other lightsaber (in specific situations) rather than the opponent themself. In theory, hitting the other lightsaber and winning the mental chess match provides better openings in the conflict as well as an oppening for a non-lethal submission.
Totally unrealistic in a real world sword fight. Acceptable to an extent in a wizard battle with telekinesis and losely defined technology wands.
Telegraphing can also be somewhat excused by world setting as well, considering the telegraphing is mostly used to show the mental state of the combatants to the audience. The movies/shows put an major emphasis on controlling or embracing their emotions (calm and direct vs anger, chaos and passion etc)
This makes the Obi Wan and Anakin fight so much more impactful seeing the quick, controlled and non-telegraphed guards and strikes from the two top wizards in the universe.
What can't be excused is spinning, and blatantly missing just for story progression. It's just weak choreography. And as Shad said, it takes away from the immersion.
Nick Gilliard
What’s interesting about starwars is that there are 7 separate lightsabers forms. It would be interesting to see Shad adapt each of these forms using realistic swordplay.
(Unless that’s what this video is, I’m typing at the 30 second mark lol.)
I know many of the lightsaber forms are based on real life forms adapted into Star Wars, so I imagine most of them should be pretty good. For example, Christopher Lee was an accomplished fencer, so Dooku’s lightsaber form was heavily based on fencing.
@@gameragodzilla Of course he was. He did everything else.
This would be an awesome video
For that, shad would have to understand what realistic swordplay is XD
I believe it was said in the bonus features, but George Lucas wanted every Jedi/Sith to have a unique fighting style. Not just learn Kendo and there we go. Case in point Dooku's heavily fencing inspired style. In Disney Star Wars you really don't see that at all, except maybe in the cartoons and Ahsoka, and it makes every duel look very amateurish.
I will say, as criticism go, you guys have done ut the best. most guys who wanna comment on realism in swordfights, and on The Witcher and Star Wars especially. They forget to account for the lore- and the universe-stuff.
But still. Like your comment on how a sword fight starts. There is a huge difference from you guys, train in excebition sword fights and those who trained for killing one another. Also, here with Star Wars, were are talking about someone with the mindset of something like a Viking or Samurai (where death is a glorious thing and not at all the end of anything) the skill way beyond a Samurai and powers like a Wizard. They kan sense their opponents thoughts and feelings, sense the future, move faster than the eye can see and can move objects as big as a Cruise-ship! NOTHING is left to chance, nothing is based on the fesr of dying or failing, the hatred of the opponent or chances of injury.
dude Shad is so agile wtf
What's weird is I know that & I'm still always surprised...
I remember when he wasn't. It's amazing what you can do when you can breathe properly and get good sleep.
Constantly showing examples is an excellent touch!
That clip of you guys hitting eachother with light sabers is peak "We are idiots. But professional idiots!" 😂
Would like to see you two sit down with the Matrix reload Merovingian goon fights scene.
Outside of the obvious Neo can see behind him, etc... stuff.
The one time that really sticks out as cool with a character targeting the blade was in Lord of the Rings Aragorn used a big slash to knock the blade of an Orc out of the way then continued the charge with his next attack killing the Orc
It also works because the weapons of the orcs aren't sword, but long pikes for the humans and elves to ram themselves against. He knocked it out of the way then swung to build momentum knowing the armor was thick and also knowing they wouldn't be able to strike from behind because he would finish the spin before they could drop the pike and draw their own sword.
@Dragon_Lair I don't remember a spin. The big point is he pushed the weapon out of the way and used the opening to advance. Too many things will have then push the weapon out of the way then give a look like "ha! Look what I did"
Excellent video. Thank you very much.
Regarding the low number of thrusts in lightsabre fights specifically, one thing you have to remember is that Jedi are NOT like traditional swordsmen. The vast majority of a Jedi's enemies are guys shooting blasters at them, NOT guys fighting with other close-range weapons. As such, most of their focus is on deflecting blaster bolts. Thrusts would be useless for that purpose so they don't get into the habit of using them.
Not being made by Disney.
I think that you guys would enjoy Obi-Wan vs Maul from Star Wars Rebels. It only lasts like 2-3 seconds but it does so much of what you talked about. They went through several different poses, shifting from fighting style to fighting style and trying to feel out their opponents and how they should approach the fight. Then when the fight does happen it’s over in three moves.
Add on top of that, it’s an explicit callback to their first duel. Obi-Wan uses Qui Gon’s stance to lure Maul into being careless. Maul then tries using the exact same move to end Obi-Wan that he used against Qui Gon. Obi-Wan recognizes this and counterattacks appropriately.
Nick Gillard is sorely missed in the SW stunt team nowadays. He was the stunt coordinator and fight choreographer for the SW prequels! Ewan and Hayden practiced with him for over two years I think, before filming started on RotS? Ray Park was already a trained martial artist, and Liam Neeson trained in Irish longsword before he became an actor... It's a damned shame GL had Qui-Gon Jinn killed off at the end of TPM
Thanks for mentioning The Old Republic cinematics. They're really well done. My favorite one "Hope", manages to pull off non-force users vs sith.
Have you ever seen those old Ryan vs Dorkman lightsaber duels? Those were the best
Yall got an awesome groove going with the new rapport together. I very much enjoyed this discussion.
Fights should be part of the story telling. Character flaws or growth should be shown/exploited
I am a fan of Star Wars Rebels. In one of the later seasons where they were trading Sabine, a Mandolorian, how to use the Darksaber, Kanan told Sabine that her experience with metal blades doesn’t completely translate to lightsabers. They showed two lightsabers in the bind are essentially drawn to each other to the point of being unable to side against each other. It is a nice little piece of lore for those who see and remember it to rationalize that fantasy can take things anywhere. That being said, lore and reason get thrown away several times in a lot of stuff to make something either work or be cool. I agree that several lightsaber fights are cool but have flaws. Some are just bad. Some lightsaber fight scene using the ‘locked together’ part from Rebels and incorporating realistic fighting maneuvers and a little bit of fantasy logic would be awesome.
Fantastic!!! your point of view about some bad moment on a good figth against two good moments on a mountain of rubish is a good final point for this video..... thanks for that
11:14 I WASN'T EXPECTING THAT AT ALL, _LM🅰️OOO!!!!!!_ 🤣🤣🤣. Great video as usual, fight scenes can be cool *and* realistic, one thing doesn't take away the other 💪🏼...
Shad in medieval style armor reading from a digital tablet. There has to be a context somehow where a scene like this could be put in a movie.
Even though its old now, A Kid in King Arthur's Court. If that movie were made now, the kid would a modern tablet/phone back in that time.
Some sort of sci-fi castlepunk setting, like a Feudal World in Warhammer 40,000. Alternatively a castlepunk/dungeonpunk setting with magitech, like the Eberron setting in D&D.
Ik this has nothing to do with the video, but im getting back into archery and have been binge watching your archery videos… idk how many others agree, but would love to see ANYTHING else on archery, absolutely loved those videos
As a random person with no experience, the only thing I slightly disagree when someone dodges when they don't need to. I would dodge if someone swings a sword at me from basic instinct even if it would have missed, but then again, that doesn't mean every uneeded dodge is reasonable
Here is the full support I've been giving for all your videos, including the back catalogue. Only three years of rewatching left (the last one I rewatched yesterday was the satirical golf club review).
Awesome video. And Adorea is from Czech Republic. And you should look more to our Czech history. It is really interesting and Kingdome come deliverence is proof of that.
On point one: If you're 'trusting the force', then you might not have that 'feeling out' session before getting started.
I'm not a star wars expert, but to me the Obi One guard looks like it's saying to the opponent: "you don't know if I'm gonna use the light saber with my right hand, or the force with my left hand"... So, in universe, I can se it working
Bringing up the topic of binds. There actually is an in-lore explanation for this (before anyone points this out yes, I know it's just a result of choreography choices and this is a little retrospective but hear me out) lightsabers actually are magnetically drawn to one another. The best example of this is with the darksaber, specifically in rebels where Kanan and Sabine train. Kanan mentions that the blades will be drawn to one another and you see this with the electrical currents arcing between the blades. Now Kanan at this point had never actually fought the darksaber, he didn't even know it existed until a few days ago so how would he know this? It happens with regular lightsabers as well. So what causes this? To my knowledge it is the magnetic containment field around the blade that allows it to hold its shape, its similar to how the lightwhip works as well. When these magnetic fields make contact, then you get what is essentially two magnets making contact and that makes it more difficult to move your blade along or around your opponents.
I was checking the old republic fights and they do like almost everything mentioned in the video including the omnicirectional stuff and yknow, actually using the force for stuff. I vote for autopsy of those fights as well!
Good call-out to the Old Republic cinematics, the Ryan vs Dorkman videos, and the one I saw most recently, the Corridor Digital one.
👍👍👍👍😎😎😎😎
Hey, did you hear about the Star Wars fanatic who's been stealing autograph books and photo albums from other fans at conventions?
They call him the fan-tome menace.
31:56 the thing I love about classic Kenobi pose is when he does it in Rebel Maul duel only for him to change it to a proper guard to show that he's grown and is no longer young passionate duelist he used to be. Then he proceeds to demolish Maul in 2 seconds. Brilliant scene.
Shad can you PLEASE do a break down of the deleted scenes from the prequels the Anakin, Dooku fight and the Palpatine Windu fight
Omg yes! Ive been saying this related to star wars for ages. Even the cool fan films are just doing sword hitting instead of moves that look like their trying to stab each other
Nick gilliard is still alive and I think you can find him on various TH-cam vids
Star Wars Theory interviewed him in a walk-and-talk about this very fight the other day. The man is still very much alive and very much knows his craft.
I've used to be in a club that used real blunt swords and other weapons to learn how to use them right and use touch rules to be more or less safe and as our skills grew. Our duals sometimes lasted several minutes just because of the skills and the right moves. But even with those skills when ever I match with someone really good techniques and skills, my own skills did not last very long at all. A full on fight between two people who can really use a sword, usually ends either when someone makes a mistake and then the fight is over nearly instantly, but if that don't happen the fight can last for several minutes with both sides works hard to get in a good hit.
If people really dig into using sword and some of the really old techniques that still exist, you will soon begin to understand that a fight with weapons is all about the right moment.
Up against someone not as good as myself, all I needed to end the fight was their first move, so the fight was over within a second or two. But up against someone with a similar level of skill that changes a lot because there even a tiny hole in your defensive technique might end the fight, and you need to create an opening, both side will be hunting for an opening or using techniques to create an opening and such fights, might take a long time to end if both side is really focused and if they are about at the same skill level.
Personally I usually don't like seeing sword fights because there's always openings that the other side would take advantage of, but they don't. Or they fight style is so open that anyone with a tiny bit of skill would be able to kill them within seconds. So most of it looks fake to me, because I know how to really fight with a sword.
Learning enough control to use touch rules, just makes you very aware that it would be so easy to just change the angle a tiny bit too really hurt someone or kill them as using swords are dangerous, lightsabers are even worse as a single hit will end the fight and there is usually so many opening, bad moves and wasted moves that it's almost discussing.
Oh, and please someone send this video link to someone making that show to really fix the issue because it was honestly horrible to see.
Though you're from Australia Brother Shad, Happy 4th of July, I enjoyed the video. I also hope to see a video on July 24th, a special day for those of us in the faith.
Deadly? Disney can't even stand the sight of blood much less someone in character dying on screen.
Bottom line, the lightsaber fighting scenes by Disney look like drunk rednecks with glow sticks playing a bat fight at a rave.
regarding saber binds, in Rebels they mention the blades are drawn together, so there’s a stickiness to them that I think lets the cinematic close-up bind be less egregious. This may also be why reverse edge cuts are not used because sliding the blade would be like pulling velcro. None of this has been reasonably explained, but I always thought that line in Rebels did a ton of heavy lifting to help smooth over some of the sins. I don’t necessarily like it, but it’s a handy retcon to explain the bind encounters. The problem
is lightsaber on saber physics has never been adequately explained in canon (so far as I’m aware) and so what you typically get is whatever the production team feels like it should be for any given story. If we learned a lot more about how the beams of plasma naturally link up and bind themselves but are repelled by dueling force powers, etc. that could be a fantastical dynamic that would make lightsaber battles unique and more interesting, but we’ve never gotten that sort of explanation, really.
RULE OF COOL: A Jedi has a special sense that knows where the opponent saber is at all times, which means he can spin. It doesn’t mean everyone can spin at all times like a competition between toddlers to see who falls down first
If both people can do it then spinning is pointless because the opponent can sense the spin and prepare to strike the back.
That's not even really rule of COOL, it's rule of MAGIC.
Any fantasy or super powered setting where they've got swords and such, that doesn't take into account the powers of the fighters, isn't good.
Which is ANOTHER knock to Disney Star Wars! They NEVER use the FORCE during a fight. Like Jedi vs Sith, two force users, yeah they can't just toss out the force willy nilly, they can both use the force so they can block and counter, that's fine. But like Maul throwing something with the force to open a shield and separate his two opponents. Obi Wan pulling his lightsaber into his hand to quickly surprise and strike Maul.
Or just JUMPING! That's a force power. Using the force to push off the ground to leap far distances, they don't do ANY acrobatics now! Kylo and Rey are fighting on DEBRIS IN THE MIDDLE OF AN OCEAN and they don't do ANYTHING impressive!? Are you KIDDING me?
More people should take notes from Elden Ring in this aspect too. There's lots of instances of like, using gravity magic to basically make your weapon a freaking meteor. Or levitating your sword and turning it into a plus sized power drill! Or even just enchanting your blade with a magical flame that causes some extra burning effect even if they manage to block a hit. There's SO much cool shit you can do with magic and a sword.
@@haku8135 that's why IMO, the Obi Wan guard thing does make sense in universe, because he can use the force to guard against the droid weapons. Also because he can use the force, he can speed himself up briefly to deflect things and it will look natural and right as it's utilizing his in universe abilities.
@@v2mrstevenofv259 Okay, the dark voice in the back of my head wants to hand a bunch of lightsabers to a bunch of toddlers and set them spinning...
The carnage and screaming would be epic.
@@elwindil8566 - Precognition is a Force power in continual use, as is Force Sense. It's why the sense deprivation helmets are used. To teach them to rely on the Force, it replaces their sight. They can feel where the threat is coming from. They can feel what their opponent is going to do before they do it. Feel where the blaster bolt is gonna go before it is even fired. Feel the hostility and aggression from the guy about to shoot him in the face, even though the dude hasn't even pulled his weapon out. They hear the bell before it tolls. See the arrow before it flies. This is why most people can't beat them in a fight, can't really surprise them. Their mind is still like the moon reflecting on a placid lake. Any disturbance sends ripples they can sense. (WEll, if they're maintaining that calm and are focused.)
Two Force users battling it out with sabers is a chess game at breakneck speed where they're playing five moves ahead all the time. The goal of lightsaber combat isn't so much trying to find an opening but trying to make one in the first place.
Combine this with Force Speed, which heightens speed and reflexes. you're fighting with speed and reflexes that are lightning quick.
Fighting a Consular is like having an angry space wizard after you. Fighting a Guardian is like angry samurai Spiderman, with spidey's senses, speed, reflexes, agility, and in a pinch raw physical power. Oh, and they can do angry space wizard things too. Just maybe not as easily or the really high-level stuff. Sentinels balance the two.
Because the wielders of lightsabers are most often Force sensitive, they can use precognition to gage an opponent's actions. That is one reason why they don't do the feeling out strikes that the guys are talking about.
Hello Shad, long time subscriber and follower (on my personal account). On the topic of fan made lightsaber fights, I used a lot of your advice from your fight scene autopsy series to choreograph the lightsaber fight in my fan film Star Wars: A Test of Patience here on my profile. I'd be honored for you to check it out and see where I took influence from your past advice.
As I watch your video further it's funny how you bring up all the things I made points to include in my fight scene, namely the little starting taps and the retreating of the front foot, and using a rapier vs longsword guards and fighting styles. I'll admit I did include a bind (for the sake of passing dialog), but I did also allow for it to be taken advantage of, so maybe neutral point? Idk I'll let you judge it haha.
You can't argue with people who try to defend this stuff. Found one guy on twitter who kept saying prequels fights were terrible compered to Acolyte and ofc his response was that he's a swords master himself so he doesn't need some grifter youtubers explaining to him how a true sword fight should look like. And ofc his dad also worked at Nintendo.
Your Acolyte fight scene autopsy video did not disappoint, well done!
I would says that a key thing in a fight is, what is each of their objectives? Delay, kill, talk, subdue. That will inform their tactics.
You rip it apart but its return of the Sith is the best we have seen to date and its not even close !
Duel of the Fates would like a word...
As a writer, in your fight scenes... you need to be thinking about the CHARACTERS intent and experience. Characters reveal themselves in the way they choose to fight. Watch the movie The One for a great example of this.
So in Episode VI, when Luke is slamming down on Vader’s lightsaber before cutting off the hand, does that count as a specific example of purposely aiming for the blade?
In my eyes any fight between Vader and Luke was a power struggle not a fight to the death because they were father and Son. They weren't trying to kill each other in empire and Rotj. Luke was trying to control his rage but almost lost it, but ultimately wanted to save his dad rather than just slice his face off. He cut off his hand because it disarmed him permanently.
@@steventwist1435 Pretty much. Luke was going out of his way NOT to fight Vader. It wasn't under Vader mentioned his sister that he lost it. Vader was on the floor and Luke was still unleashing his anger.
@@steventwist1435 I’m aware of the context. I’m speaking more on the focus of his rage. He was repeatedly hitting the blade until it broke Vader’s guard. Then disarmed him. Is that not aiming for the blade regardless of his emotional state?
@@acgearsandarms1343 Yeah he's aiming at the blade to beat Vader into submission in my opinion he's getting angry and losing control and ultimately cuts his hand off. He's taking his rage out on the blade, trying to overcome him with strength, which is why the emperor almost got his way. Blind rage but still kind of in control. That's what I thought anyway.
After giving into emotion and losing control he still doesn't want to kill Vader. He beats his blade into submission. Then he cuts off Vader's hand in revenge for his own hand being cut off in ESB.
I love that the Corridor video got highlighted here. The title is "To The Death" if somebody wants to check it out. Those guys put A LOT of effort to make that video as realistic as it is possible with imaginary weapons. It is worth watching the BTS footage for that one, it is truly humbling
Haven’t watched the video yet, but I’m guessing it boils down to good choreography and competent storytelling
I think what so, so many people forget about lethal combat is that the aim of the game is not to kill your opponent. The aim is to not get yourself killed, usually by downing your opponent in some way. Which is why so often they don't do fights right in media. You don't even need experience in combat to know this. I learned it from fighting games! All they need to do is get someone who has decent knowledge of armed combat to check the shots
I told someone to slowdown the fight in acolyte and just try to count on one hand how many openings there are for a finishing move, you just cant. And they said "why would i slow it down instead of watching it at its intended speed" and i said A. To see how bad it is, B. Cause you want to analyze rather than just consoom content. And C. To show that its not actually realistic, if the writers had seen that, they'd known they need to rework the choreography
Mugen vs Afro Samurai by Team Red Pro is also has some good fight choreo. They tried to emulate the fighting style of both characters as close to the lore as possible. e.g. Afro Samurai uses a katana one handed, but uses the scabbard to block and parry, while Mugen does a breakdancing-type of fighting style to show his unpredictability. They also masterfully choreographed this by doing blocks/binds with the Geta slippers and Mugen's handguard.
The point of the light saber fights was not slapping swords together. It was the confrontation and the emotion. To focus on choreography and foot work misses the point. This is why the original trilogy's saber fights were so iconic and all other movies fail to live up to them. It's about the people and the story, not the fight itself.
There's no reason you can't have both. Good choreography and emotion/story are NOT mutually exclusive.
@@Wright805 Yes there is a reason you can't have both. When you're whipping around you can't talk. You do one or the other, not both.
@@SomeCanine Don't be daft. Watch the Original Trilogy lightsabre duels. Did Luke/Kenobi and Vader spend the entire time talking? No, they would fight for a bit, pause and then resume. During these pauses THEN they would exchange words. That's how you do both.
Plus, if the choreography is good, you don't NEED talking. All of the emotion can be conveyed through movement, body language, expressions etc. Watch Samurai Jack. That show had many episodes with little or even no dialogue and it could still tell a great story.
@@Wright805 The whole point of the duel in the movie was the talking. It is a confrontation but it's a dramatic moment, not a pointless dance competition.
@@SomeCanine Again, please explain to me why "a dramatic moment" requires choreography to be bad? Again, if it's done well it is not a "pointless dance competition" because it elevates the scene.
Seriously, why do you hate good choreography so much?
In kickboxing and mma, you have ro really set up spinning attacks, but they definitely work
Kenobi’s saber stance is only acceptable because of the context of the force. Kenobi’s form 3 is actually used to draw in an opponent so that their weapon can be deflected with a minor force push leaving them open for a thrust. It mirrors the sword and buckler stance using the force as your shield. Without the force however it is pretty bad to present an unarmored limb.
A non-force sensitive using that style in Star Wars would likely use a Beskar buckler, or would use a more sensible stance that still achieves a similar purpose, such as a two-handed low guard.
That is Kenobi and a real style, leave false opening’s that an opponent will take and counter. In terms of the Kenobi show he is supposed to be doing everything wrong, that’s the drama.
Ok, you really should do Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon fight scene autopsy at this point. That's too iconic to not be made
It's really two simple but quite important ingredients:
1. Coreography - commonly achieved with the help of professionals at work, taking time to prepare the shoot with good trainers, but also an understanding of the logic of the world.
2. Storytelling - which needs two smaller ingredients, likeable characters and a real threat to them, getting you to want to see them succeed but without forgetting it must be a challenge.
That breakdown of the anakin, obe one fight you did showed how amazing they did. The father type relationship and their powers explain most of the things like flourishing and spining.
Good sword fight scene is made when Disney is not involved
This was one of the best videos to date. Bravo 👏.
calling the prequels "baseball bat fighting" is an affront to baseball bat fighting.
Sequels, not prequels.
I watched a sword expert talk about the sword fight from The Princess Bride. He said that the swords they used were waaay lighter than a read fighting blade would be which allowed them to go a lot faster than they would in a real fight but other than that, it was excellently done with surprisingly real technique.
If they showed what A lightsaber IRL actually did to A human body the movie would be rated R. Also real blade on blade combat happens very fast and very directly, someone with martial training would appreciate that ................... the average audience goer.................. NO!!!!
As someone very into Arnis/Kali/Escrima, I can very very much appreciate that. But I also think you can use realistic moves and techniques, AND make the fight interesting and last a good while.
I have found two uses for spins:
1) fighting multiple opponents - Spin to threaten a big area and get out of encirclement
2) using a big shield - spin while blocking simultaneously and attack from a normally impossible angle
maybe to check what's going on behind you while passing through a "king's guard" or equivalent, or obviously in a multi opponent fight.