I might rather swing for the fences with the rifle to honest. Would you prefer to eat the steel pipes or the stock? I have only shot a .50 single barrel hawken rifle and that was heavier than sin, wonder what the specs are for this
@@commander31able60 Captain Price right? That quote has saved my life countless times while playing shooters lol, everything from good old CoD4 to Arma3 and CS:GO
Some years back, I worked at a C&R shop in Gettysburg. We had one of these, but I didn't know how it worked until now. Very interesting! I wished I had played with it more now :)
We go through a whole lot of trouble to kill each other. After having to reload these damn things 3 or 4 times I'd strongly consider discussing my differences with whomever I'm shooting at. Including the deer if applicable.
- So what's with that slavery thing you have going on? Aren't you going to get rid of it? - Why would we? It's quite convenient. The deer is nice, by the way.
@@TheThingAndTheOtherThing they definitely had black powder revolving rifles. The channel "cap and ball" has a great video on the 1855 colt root revolver rifle. I would love one personally.
@@TheThingAndTheOtherThing Because the back blast of gas pressure scales up with it? When firing a conventional revolving pistol both hands/arms are behind the cylinder/chamber, this is not the case with a rifle and getting blasted with gas pressure and lead spray from the action is a concern. Revolver-Rifles were a thing though, just not a hugely popular one.
@@ricochet5241 yea quicker without a doubt. But like Karl said while fumbling with tiny caps "imagine trying to do this in combat" you drop one and you could be wearing somebody's bayonet. The whole idea is you're saving it for an emergency right
Sadly, it takes three shots to spin the spinner. Also, I am of the controversial opinion that swivel breech guns are obsolete in a military capacity these days.
@@Rumblestrip no, it a mini-gun is actually just a swivel breech gun at its highest evolutionary state. What differentiates it from a revolver is the fact that it has a barrel for each chamber, rather than a single barrel that each chamber must align with. This reduces barrel wear and enhances cooling by both reducing the effective firing rate of each barrel and forcing airflow around each barrel as it rotates around the center axis of the cluster.
Maybe with a conical.... Like a lee r.e.a.l. bullet 45s weigh 200 grains... Getting into 45 colt territory for power... Maybe a little stiffer with the right load.
Thanks, Karl. The swivel breech muzzleloader you demonstrated represents a step in firearms development that I was previously unaware of. Your historical vignettes are enlightening and entertaining.
Just a small point. The short starter you used wasn't really used until after the civil war and only for formal shooting matches. It wasn't until the 1930s that people assumed that they had always been around. I just use the big of my patch knife to pound the ball level, then use the ramrod.
It’s cool that you give us content that reinforces and pertains to your current project but can be watched in a vacuum as just a cool overview of an interesting historical action and firearm. This is why I come to this channel.
If you look into civil war carbines of the south. Look up the Tallassee carbine. Was a mixture of Springfield and Enfield parts. One of the rarest guns with its armory not being burned down after/during the Civil War.
We did a weekend of different events, climbing, first aid, low and high ropes, competitions and a black powder demonstration for the Explorer scouts. Usually 70-100 kids plus other adults. I got to be the loader, the entire day. The bruise on my hand from starting balls for six hours was huge. By the end the two rifles were so fouled. Good times.
I have seen some references that say these were commonly combination guns, either both smooth bore or with one rifled barrel. They'd have the first barrel loaded with a round ball for shooting big game, and the second barrel was loaded with shot for small game & birds. This allowed the shooter to take any type of game they happened to come across, while being cheaper than a true double barrel since it only has one lock.
For everyone that says in a stressful situation you will not be able to use the slide lock on a pistol to drop the slide due to stress... your great great grand dad had to put a tiny loose cap on a tiny nipple in battle. I think you will be ok.
Oddly they were probably using larger winged caps in the service, but your point is well made sir. Swapping cones on something like this is extremely easy... The musket caps would have been readily available to... Literally on corpses in cap pouches. Lol
The scenery, birdlife etc where you guys are just seems so spectacular. One day, when I see the USA, I will avoid all the big cities and see the wide open spaces of your beautiful country.
Great video! From a fellow that shoots the old style boom sticks, you can get reloads down to 20 seconds from a powder horn, measure, patch, ball, short starter, ramrod. Don't waste time putting the ramrod back, just hold it with support hand and have a capper, or leather capper.
A little doofy for combat, but I could definitely see this being a great hunting rifle at the time, having a follow-up shot immediately available after the first. Also, as another commenter suggested, a live comparison of a standard musket and this swivel breech rifle being reloaded and fired as much as possible within 2-5 minutes would be very interesting. Might be a fun competitive video for you and Ian to do if you guys get the opportunity at some point. I can already see all the fumbled caps.
Use 1 barrel, keep the other in reserve. In case of severe fouling or emergency then use the 2nd one. Whoever creating this/bought this is smart person. I like it.
I've never heard of a swivel breech rifle before, very interesting. I've been watching Ian's videos for years and I can't recall seeing one on his channel. I'll have to go searching now.
Would be handy in a situation where you miss with first shot, misfire or only lightly wound someone attacking you? Perhaps not ideal for battle but for self defense situations. Nice to have a six shooter as a backup aswell.
Karl. This and forgotten weapons are the only channel I reliably watch. Maybe put C&Rsenal on that list, but not nearly as much. I really wish I had the spare money to help support both channels. I hope to once this virus shit blows over. Keep doing the good work!
I've seen enough muzzleloader shooters break their ramrod when they were under time pressure to see a spare one as not a bad thing. It's just a stick, usually hickory.
@@voneror This would have been a civilian hunting rifle, not a military arm, so it would be more likely to have extra options available, like the extra rod. Also, it looks more symetrical, and therefore more atractive. Probable not much more work or materials to add it, but they could sell it as a premium model. Military arm- simple, cheap, reliable. Civillian - well, it looks better, so it will sell better.
That’s just the way it was! I will say the worst threat from loading from the powder flask was a flash ignition of the flask itself turning it into a grenade going off in your hand. I did have a flash once at the muzzle, powder burns on the wrist are no bueno but minor.
The one question turning in my head while watching: If you already have a swivel breach, why not make it a breach loader??? You would loose the ability to fire two shots after another but loading would be soo much faster.
I remember asking some old timers why I couldn't make Minie balls for my Hawken, they said the twist rate was too high and they would destabilize. I imagine the same is true for this gun.
Rifle twist enters into it a little bit, but honestly, I've put some of those "old timers" knowledge to the test and sent a Hornady great plains hollow point 700 yards out of a 50 caliber flintlock to an aluminum sheet and hit just fine with a 1:48 twist 35 barrel. There's a video of my first hit on my YT to prove it. Got all the load info in the description. I suspect minie balls didn't really exist much for these guys kind of like now. We got some modern. Ideas about and the closest conical they had was slightly oversized for this gun for 44 revolvers... Average size for the concials there was 0.450-0.452. you might be able to force that down the barrel, but not very often and not consistently.
Karl, you mentioned the earlier rifles, those swivel breech flintlock rifles were found, but not common among the Revolutionary War volunteers of the Southern theater. Upon reading of the exploits of some of my ancestors with the various units such as Morgan's Riflemen and the "Over-mountain Men" (who marched hundreds of miles through the 'wilderness of the Blue Ridge Mountains) and defeated Ferguson at the Battle of Kings Mountain (the Ferguson Rifle is a fascinating rifle in its own right, and has been the subject of one of Ian's Forgotten Weapons presentations), along with other lesser-known battles of the region, reading the reports and letters seem to suggest that generally swivel-breech rifles, at least the flintlocks were often owned two types of people; as they were reportedly more expensive than two separate rifles, due to the greater precision in the 'smithing', owners were either quite well off, or marksman whose abilities would allow them the use the 'rapid' second shots. Remember, flintlocks would have been far more at risk for having flash-overs with the two pans in close proximity. I am thinking that it much the same in the 1860s. It's interesting that the western regions, the in mountains of the south, from Virginia to Georgia were considered strongholds for the Republicans prior to the Civil War if nothing else but the resentment by the westerners that the Democrats in the state capitals had long ignored the people of the mountains. Thank you Karl for the demonstration.
So the standard issue weapon with updated ammunition was better than the more advanced weapon that was available at the time. Almost like I've heard this point made here before. Anyways, this historical stuff is why I subscribe, look forward to more.
Please no... Always makes me cringe... Fyi the percussion gun wins if the cap is on when it's dunked... That's the point in the cap. Doesn't need testing... If ya want to test it, hunt with each in the rain. Unless you put a little beeswax in front of the pan on the flintlock your main and priming charges are both going to be soaked if it's raining hard enough... Never mind if the flint will actually produce Sparks when the cock strikes it to the hammer/frizzen.
"Can you imagine doing this in battle?" I can imagine all sorts of ways to mess up the loading sequence and none of them good! Double charges would be easy to do, no charge under one ball, two under the other, etc.
I wonder how effective mass numbers of these used in line formations would've been, especially in units four or so ranks deep. The first two ranks would be able to fire their two shots, then reload behind the third and fourth ranks as they moved up to fire their own, so on. The fire may not be as sustained as a regular line unit, but I could see them being superb as a sort of 18th-19th century shock-troop. Massive initial fire followed by a charge.
Before the battle of Shiloh, Albert Sidney Johnston said to Southerners (and I paraphrase) "Come! Bring your rifles, bring your shotguns. If you don't have a rifle or shotgun, bring a pike. Just Come!" A non-optimal firearm is far, far better than a literal sharp stick than is the best firearm compared to that non-optimal firearm.
Interesting. Can't recall ever seeing one. When i saw swivel breech, i was thinking maybe it was a breechloader that swung open to the side. It would be fun for hunting. Militarily, if you had a platoon or so of guys with these, you could do volley fire. Divide into 3 or 4 groups. Each line fires both their shots and then reloads. But just having a few scattered through a unit does not seem to have much combat utility. Fascinating system though. Great demo
Things like this likely also saw Union service. Several museums have rifles used by Union regiments from the Trans-Mississipi Theater that were just standard plains rifles.
I’d be interested as to how to integrate these into linear combat. You could fire a volley with one barrel, reload it, and if attacked mud reload you have a spare shot. It’s similar to a tactical reload wherein one round is still in the chamber as you reload. For asymmetric warfare it’d increase the fire power of a small unit by double. I imagine that’d be helpful in ambush or simply against a larger opponent. Very interesting!
Very interesting concept. This seems like an excellent rifle for hunting and possibly for home defence (if you can duck down inside to reaload or grab another weapon). I probably wouldn't want it as a weapon of war though. Thanks, Karl!
Modified Hopkins and Allen rifle from around 1970s. Added longer brass trigger guard and wood panels on side of barrel. Same patch box , same breech, same sights. Would a civil war rifle fire #11 caps? Been shooting mine since 1973. Serial number is 01776 believe it or not.
Seems pretty odd today, but I'll bet in the days two army lines standing apart and volleying at each other this seemed like a ridiculous advantage, being able to lob two volleys in the first part of the battle
I would like to see a comparison of shooting for speed and accuracy with this and other musket type rifles of the time. It would be interesting to see if you could shoot 6 or so targets at medium distance faster with this or with a more modern musket.
3:56 a decently reliable way to tell if you have an air space (aka, a pipe bomb) is to "toss" the ram-rod down..... letting go of it before it hits the ball. if it bounces back up, its 98% sure its seated against the powder charge again..... use a starter (because if ya just use the ram rod..... it can break.... and then ya spear your hand clean threw) then use the ram-rod..... push it down then pull the ram-rod up about 6 inches..... and "flick" it back down the bore if it doesnt bounce... or only bounces off the ball a little bit you have an air gap (again.... this is an EXPLOSIVE condition) but if you flick it down..... and it bounces back like it hit a "bouncy ball" your seated, loaded, and ready to cap and fire
or, if you ONLY use the same powder charge and balls.... mark the ram rod with a line..... right at the crown of the barrel if the line is above the end of the barrel.... its a NO-GO but if the line is in-line or below the end of the barrel..... your good to cap and fire
Depends on the application this would have been fielded for... This doesn't strike me as "give Private Target McStumpy over there the swivel breach we got." No this strikes me as either a skirmisher or sharpshooters weapon. Something for a get in fast and get out, or a hide and look for somebody with stars on his uniform and give him lead poisoning.
The first reload isn't much faster than double reload - it's the reloading way that is significantly slower since these can't use minié balls _nor_ paper cartridges (though why you couldn't have ready-measured charges in paper pouches + a ball all ready to go escapes me). Keeping a second shot in reserve does sound like a reasonable thing to do though, especially in a unit that might have these and regular one-barrel muzzleloaders. Keeps everyone firing volleys at similar rates. So I imagine these were really just 'Pvt. McStumpy' rifles, issued out because 'it's what we got, private! Now, march into line, hop to it, get moving moving moving!' Accuracy doesn't seem to be anything to write home about either, or Karl at least left it out of this equation. So not a marksman's weapon as such, I guess.
Interesting video! I have never seen one of these in a Confederate context before. I am not surprised given the shotguns, squirrel rifles, flintlocks and some of the other trash the south used before they got a reliable supply of Enfields. It would be interesting if you could do a segment on some of the other foreign rifles, such as the Austrian Lorenz, that both sides used until better weapons were on hand.
Under the stress and chaos of combat, I would be extremely concerned about accidentally pouring a double charge down one barrel. That said, I love the inventiveness of these early repeating rifles.
Hi Karl, I'm a Patreon supporter and totally appreciate your channels content. Thanks for doing a video on a black powder muzzle loader. I'm an avid black powder shooter from the land of the persecuted gun owners in Canada. We appreciate your freedoms. Our government just banned some of my guns and classified them as prohibited. When it comes to gun legislation they have there heads up there butt.
War has historically been the biggest catalyst for innovation. At the start of WWII, most countries were still flying biplanes, 5 years later the Germans had viable jet airplanes.
This was actually more of a hunting arm then it is a military arm. Swivel breach guns go back quite a ways, usually with nobility and the like. Never made in any significant numbers.
Not bad for a sniper rifle during the period if it's accurate enough. One shot, then scoot and find another firing position was a common tactic because of black powder smoke giving away the snipers position. Having the other barrel as a back-up for a quick follow-up shot, or for self-defense when moving would be beneficial.
Maarten De R. I suspect you are thinking of a shotgun. Although I’m sure there’s an exception on forgotten weapons, rifles/muskets don’t tend to be side by side.
typical side-by-side shotguns have their barrels canted towards the central axis very slightly, so if you put infinite rods in both barrels they will intersect at some distance. this hampers accuracy at range and would be detrimental to a rifle, or a non-rifled weapon firing one bullet instead of many. I expect the reason for the over-under design is to increase "magazine capacity" without compromising the accuracy of each individual barrel. you could see this as a sort of revolver.
Two things come to mind: This way you have one sight picture. A common problem/factor of side by side shotguns for example is that the two barrels are not exactly parallel to each other. They both tilt inwards slightly, so that you can use the same sight for both. Their idealized bullet trajectories basically form an X, the meeting point of both being typically at the range the weapon is sighted in for. That's fine for a shotgun for relatively close distances, but not ideal for hunting or precision weapons. If you instead arrange the barrels in perfect parallel, you either have one sight that doesn't quite work for two barrels, or two pairs of sights that you have to switch between shots. The other thing is cost (and maybe weight). With a percussion side by side you need two locks, or some thingamajig that stops both barrels from firing at once if you somehow manage with one lock. Locks are the main mechanism with the springs and all that, plus you have to engineer it so the trigger switches between the two locks. Or you need two triggers, which is simpler and many hunting weapons opt for that solution. The turning mechanism of the two barrels just requires a mechanism to lock them in place and a part to swivel on. That can be cheaper. Also you can end up with less parts in general, therefore reducing weight. But for civilian weapons, which can generally be more expensive that military ones, the first point about the sight arrangement and aiming is probably more important.
That was my thought as well -- this is no better than a side-by-side or over-under two barrel rifle with the addition of a shaft that can seize up or go out of alignment.
"switching to your knife is always faster than reloading"
I might rather swing for the fences with the rifle to honest. Would you prefer to eat the steel pipes or the stock? I have only shot a .50 single barrel hawken rifle and that was heavier than sin, wonder what the specs are for this
@@mattigator600 practically, I agree. I was making a reference to CoD 4.
@@commander31able60 Captain Price right? That quote has saved my life countless times while playing shooters lol, everything from good old CoD4 to Arma3 and CS:GO
Great, bow knife the watermelon
Al Swann you know what he meant was the rebels were all dead before getting anywhere near bayonet range
As i recall the south lost
I've never heard nor seen of a rifle like that. Very interesting.
Same here, never knew these were a thing!
Likewise. Thinking about it now I can see the usefulness of a quick second shot when hunting.
@@Vespuchian that was my thought, you wouldn't have to take your eyes off the target if you missed or made a bad hit.
Check duelist1954, he has a 54 flintlock swivel breach
Some years back, I worked at a C&R shop in Gettysburg. We had one of these, but I didn't know how it worked until now. Very interesting! I wished I had played with it more now :)
It cracks me up that people get upset when the gun gets pointed at "them", the reality is it got pointed at a camera three weeks ago.
And the camera survived to upload the tale...
If you're brought up with strict muzzle discipline it's freaky looking down the business end of any gun, any time or place.
The world has indeed turned upside down, Ian just reviewed a brand new 9mm PCC and Karl is shooting a Forgotten Weapon. Enjoyed both.
We go through a whole lot of trouble to kill each other. After having to reload these damn things 3 or 4 times I'd strongly consider discussing my differences with whomever I'm shooting at. Including the deer if applicable.
- So what's with that slavery thing you have going on? Aren't you going to get rid of it?
- Why would we? It's quite convenient. The deer is nice, by the way.
Hush, Commie. He's making a joke.
Hush second man, he was also making a joke.
I love this nation
You can also get your saber ready and solve the issue the old fashion way :-)
Swivel Rifle - when you almost had the idea to make a revolver rifle .
Only swivel breach is safer and easier to use, cause no cylinder gap. Lol
If only men where stronger, any more then two barrels an your arms are hanging off after a day carrying it.
Seems curious to me that no one had that idea. Black powder revolvers worked fine, why not scale it up?
@@TheThingAndTheOtherThing they definitely had black powder revolving rifles. The channel "cap and ball" has a great video on the 1855 colt root revolver rifle. I would love one personally.
@@TheThingAndTheOtherThing Because the back blast of gas pressure scales up with it? When firing a conventional revolving pistol both hands/arms are behind the cylinder/chamber, this is not the case with a rifle and getting blasted with gas pressure and lead spray from the action is a concern. Revolver-Rifles were a thing though, just not a hugely popular one.
It's like a derringer on steroids.
Of course the soldier could have kept the second barrel as a reserve.
True.
I wonder how easy it would be to lose your reserve percussion cap and get no bang in an emergency.
@@mattigator600 Probably quite easy, but it'd be quicker to grab a new cap than do a full reload from scratch under stress, right?
@@ricochet5241 probably, since a full reload would include adding a new percussion cap :)
@@ricochet5241 yea quicker without a doubt. But like Karl said while fumbling with tiny caps "imagine trying to do this in combat" you drop one and you could be wearing somebody's bayonet. The whole idea is you're saving it for an emergency right
Imagine charging some dude thinking that he's out of ammo and he just rotates the barrels and dunks on you and your ancestors #disrespectful
Sadly, it takes three shots to spin the spinner.
Also, I am of the controversial opinion that swivel breech guns are obsolete in a military capacity these days.
Isn't a mini-gum just a "higher order" of swivel breach? 🤔...😆
@@bluefalconssuck5881 no no...that's a revolver lol
@@Rumblestrip no, it a mini-gun is actually just a swivel breech gun at its highest evolutionary state. What differentiates it from a revolver is the fact that it has a barrel for each chamber, rather than a single barrel that each chamber must align with. This reduces barrel wear and enhances cooling by both reducing the effective firing rate of each barrel and forcing airflow around each barrel as it rotates around the center axis of the cluster.
Well of course. Good luck taking on a guy with an AK while you have a muzzle loader
I’m liking the 19th century frontier and Civil War-themed videos lately Karl.
Could you spin a spinner using this given the two rapid shots?
No, insufficient powah.
Sad :(
That is what I was hoping for at the end 😀
Maybe with a conical.... Like a lee r.e.a.l. bullet 45s weigh 200 grains... Getting into 45 colt territory for power... Maybe a little stiffer with the right load.
@@InrangeTv Well that just means you need more powder and depleted uranium for the ball obviously.
My jaw hit the floor when he swiveled the barrels.
A speed test between this an a union rifle would be cool. Quickest to shoot 4 or 6 times
A speed/accuracy comparo of all the major rifles used in the civil war would be interesting.
Military musket with paper cartridges wins every time. What else ya got?
five times.
Maybe a spinner
@@Rumblestrip
Have you considered a Burnside, Maynard or Lindner.
Thanks, Karl. The swivel breech muzzleloader you demonstrated represents a step in firearms development that I was previously unaware of. Your historical vignettes are enlightening and entertaining.
What fantastique rifle! Thank you from France!
Just a small point. The short starter you used wasn't really used until after the civil war and only for formal shooting matches. It wasn't until the 1930s that people assumed that they had always been around. I just use the big of my patch knife to pound the ball level, then use the ramrod.
Please please please do more of these videos!!!! I love this early 1780-1899 stuff. Fascinating
Awesome! First heard about swivel breech rifles in Cormac McCarthy’s book Blood Meridian.
It’s cool that you give us content that reinforces and pertains to your current project but can be watched in a vacuum as just a cool overview of an interesting historical action and firearm. This is why I come to this channel.
I have never seen one of these operated. Thank you! I genuinely appreciated this.
If you look into civil war carbines of the south. Look up the Tallassee carbine. Was a mixture of Springfield and Enfield parts. One of the rarest guns with its armory not being burned down after/during the Civil War.
We did a weekend of different events, climbing, first aid, low and high ropes, competitions and a black powder demonstration for the Explorer scouts. Usually 70-100 kids plus other adults. I got to be the loader, the entire day. The bruise on my hand from starting balls for six hours was huge. By the end the two rifles were so fouled. Good times.
Thank you for the demo of the swivel breech rifle.
So does this accept two bayonetts as well? Asking for a friend
I didn't see a bayonet lug fixed... But I suppose would could Dove tail one in for ya lol
Two bayonets? Could one of them be a shovel? *Happy gas mask noises*
I have seen some references that say these were commonly combination guns, either both smooth bore or with one rifled barrel. They'd have the first barrel loaded with a round ball for shooting big game, and the second barrel was loaded with shot for small game & birds. This allowed the shooter to take any type of game they happened to come across, while being cheaper than a true double barrel since it only has one lock.
Nice some inrange to start the morning
Wow where are living then that it's in the morning lol
Marley Matthews the us of fucking a
For everyone that says in a stressful situation you will not be able to use the slide lock on a pistol to drop the slide due to stress... your great great grand dad had to put a tiny loose cap on a tiny nipple in battle. I think you will be ok.
Oddly they were probably using larger winged caps in the service, but your point is well made sir. Swapping cones on something like this is extremely easy... The musket caps would have been readily available to... Literally on corpses in cap pouches. Lol
Pat Putnam yes musket caps are a lot easier to use than #10 or #11 primers but it is still fiddly trying to place a cap on a nipple
Great great grandpa probably muffed it up under stress. Dropped ammo and non-fired or misfired guns were very common on Civil War battlefields.
My great great grand dad died in the war. I'll stick to racking the slide.
The scenery, birdlife etc where you guys are just seems so spectacular. One day, when I see the USA, I will avoid all the big cities and see the wide open spaces of your beautiful country.
Great video! From a fellow that shoots the old style boom sticks, you can get reloads down to 20 seconds from a powder horn, measure, patch, ball, short starter, ramrod. Don't waste time putting the ramrod back, just hold it with support hand and have a capper, or leather capper.
Always reliably interesting content. Thank you Karl!
I Never Heard of Such a State of The Art Weapon as Back Assward Was long Before The Tiger Tank 2!
Nb4 hipsters say a muzzle loader is their pick for a apocalypse gun
use one barrel
start reloading
get interrupted by enemy
smoke him with your spin-surprise musket
I wish the company that made these rifles was still around I need one in my collection!
A little doofy for combat, but I could definitely see this being a great hunting rifle at the time, having a follow-up shot immediately available after the first.
Also, as another commenter suggested, a live comparison of a standard musket and this swivel breech rifle being reloaded and fired as much as possible within 2-5 minutes would be very interesting. Might be a fun competitive video for you and Ian to do if you guys get the opportunity at some point. I can already see all the fumbled caps.
Super cool design, what a nightmare under fire though! Thanks for sharing Karl!!!
Use 1 barrel, keep the other in reserve. In case of severe fouling or emergency then use the 2nd one.
Whoever creating this/bought this is smart person. I like it.
I've never heard of a swivel breech rifle before, very interesting. I've been watching Ian's videos for years and I can't recall seeing one on his channel. I'll have to go searching now.
Great video Karl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you official DERPGRU GUY!
Definitely Fascinating, Thanks Karl!
Very interesting!!! I’d not heard of this rifle before. Thanks for making this video!!!
Hey Karl, what an interesting weapon. Thanks for the video and the bit of history
I really like how it has two sets of sights. the barrels are different, so should be the sights.
Would be handy in a situation where you miss with first shot, misfire or only lightly wound someone attacking you? Perhaps not ideal for battle but for self defense situations. Nice to have a six shooter as a backup aswell.
Karl. This and forgotten weapons are the only channel I reliably watch. Maybe put C&Rsenal on that list, but not nearly as much. I really wish I had the spare money to help support both channels. I hope to once this virus shit blows over. Keep doing the good work!
Inclusion of two ramming rods seems so bizzare. It's not like you could realistically ram two barrels at the same time.
I've seen enough muzzleloader shooters break their ramrod when they were under time pressure to see a spare one as not a bad thing. It's just a stick, usually hickory.
@@steveh1792 If this was the case for historical guns, I think they would have 2 ram rods on every gun not only on this type and you never see this.
@@voneror This would have been a civilian hunting rifle, not a military arm, so it would be more likely to have extra options available, like the extra rod. Also, it looks more symetrical, and therefore more atractive. Probable not much more work or materials to add it, but they could sell it as a premium model.
Military arm- simple, cheap, reliable. Civillian - well, it looks better, so it will sell better.
Why couldn't you ram 2 barrels at the same time? Is there that much resistance?
They tend to get jealous and insecure, so you have to talk them into it.
That’s just the way it was! I will say the worst threat from loading from the powder flask was a flash ignition of the flask itself turning it into a grenade going off in your hand. I did have a flash once at the muzzle, powder burns on the wrist are no bueno but minor.
The one question turning in my head while watching: If you already have a swivel breach, why not make it a breach loader???
You would loose the ability to fire two shots after another but loading would be soo much faster.
Fascinating! Thanks Karl.
Rich.
I remember asking some old timers why I couldn't make Minie balls for my Hawken, they said the twist rate was too high and they would destabilize. I imagine the same is true for this gun.
You could use Maxi-Balls though, they work nice from hawken rifles with 1:48 twist (but they werent inventend back in the days)
Rifle twist enters into it a little bit, but honestly, I've put some of those "old timers" knowledge to the test and sent a Hornady great plains hollow point 700 yards out of a 50 caliber flintlock to an aluminum sheet and hit just fine with a 1:48 twist 35 barrel. There's a video of my first hit on my YT to prove it. Got all the load info in the description. I suspect minie balls didn't really exist much for these guys kind of like now. We got some modern. Ideas about and the closest conical they had was slightly oversized for this gun for 44 revolvers... Average size for the concials there was 0.450-0.452. you might be able to force that down the barrel, but not very often and not consistently.
this is like one of those rpg gun
+2x shots
-2x reload speed
I think Glanton used a gun similar to this in Blood Meridian. Cool to see it
Karl, you mentioned the earlier rifles, those swivel breech flintlock rifles were found, but not common among the Revolutionary War volunteers of the Southern theater.
Upon reading of the exploits of some of my ancestors with the various units such as Morgan's Riflemen and the "Over-mountain Men" (who marched hundreds of miles through the 'wilderness of the Blue Ridge Mountains) and defeated Ferguson at the Battle of Kings Mountain (the Ferguson Rifle is a fascinating rifle in its own right, and has been the subject of one of Ian's Forgotten Weapons presentations), along with other lesser-known battles of the region, reading the reports and letters seem to suggest that generally swivel-breech rifles, at least the flintlocks were often owned two types of people; as they were reportedly more expensive than two separate rifles, due to the greater precision in the 'smithing', owners were either quite well off, or marksman whose abilities would allow them the use the 'rapid' second shots.
Remember, flintlocks would have been far more at risk for having flash-overs with the two pans in close proximity.
I am thinking that it much the same in the 1860s.
It's interesting that the western regions, the in mountains of the south, from Virginia to Georgia were considered strongholds for the Republicans prior to the Civil War if nothing else but the resentment by the westerners that the Democrats in the state capitals had long ignored the people of the mountains.
Thank you Karl for the demonstration.
So the standard issue weapon with updated ammunition was better than the more advanced weapon that was available at the time. Almost like I've heard this point made here before. Anyways, this historical stuff is why I subscribe, look forward to more.
Flintlock and Percussion Cap mud test!!! 😉
Please no... Always makes me cringe... Fyi the percussion gun wins if the cap is on when it's dunked... That's the point in the cap. Doesn't need testing... If ya want to test it, hunt with each in the rain. Unless you put a little beeswax in front of the pan on the flintlock your main and priming charges are both going to be soaked if it's raining hard enough... Never mind if the flint will actually produce Sparks when the cock strikes it to the hammer/frizzen.
Imagine reloading this rifle when someone is attacking you.
If you could afford a rifle like this during the war, chances are you also had a revolver or a pistol or two.
"Can you imagine doing this in battle?" I can imagine all sorts of ways to mess up the loading sequence and none of them good! Double charges would be easy to do, no charge under one ball, two under the other, etc.
I wonder how effective mass numbers of these used in line formations would've been, especially in units four or so ranks deep. The first two ranks would be able to fire their two shots, then reload behind the third and fourth ranks as they moved up to fire their own, so on. The fire may not be as sustained as a regular line unit, but I could see them being superb as a sort of 18th-19th century shock-troop. Massive initial fire followed by a charge.
i think Judge Holden used the same gun in "Blood Meridian"
Great novel, my favourite. I keep wondering what he meant by a swivelbore.
Awesome Video! Thanks for posting it!
Before the battle of Shiloh, Albert Sidney Johnston said to Southerners (and I paraphrase) "Come! Bring your rifles, bring your shotguns. If you don't have a rifle or shotgun, bring a pike. Just Come!" A non-optimal firearm is far, far better than a literal sharp stick than is the best firearm compared to that non-optimal firearm.
Interesting. Can't recall ever seeing one. When i saw swivel breech, i was thinking maybe it was a breechloader that swung open to the side. It would be fun for hunting. Militarily, if you had a platoon or so of guys with these, you could do volley fire. Divide into 3 or 4 groups. Each line fires both their shots and then reloads. But just having a few scattered through a unit does not seem to have much combat utility. Fascinating system though. Great demo
Things like this likely also saw Union service. Several museums have rifles used by Union regiments from the Trans-Mississipi Theater that were just standard plains rifles.
I’d be interested as to how to integrate these into linear combat. You could fire a volley with one barrel, reload it, and if attacked mud reload you have a spare shot. It’s similar to a tactical reload wherein one round is still in the chamber as you reload. For asymmetric warfare it’d increase the fire power of a small unit by double. I imagine that’d be helpful in ambush or simply against a larger opponent. Very interesting!
I rather stay with my beloved Spencer Rifle.
@@Muster_Muckee_II Your wish is granted. You now have a Zip 22
@@Muster_Muckee_II Hey, could probably sell a zip for quite the price to a collector and buy a functional gun with that money
That's so cool! Thanks for sharing, great channel!
The fact it also has 2 cleaning rods cracks me up.
Always good to have a spare
I believe it should be mentioned that one should make sure to use a "tight: load. The second load jarring loose could be a disaster looking to happen.
Very interesting concept. This seems like an excellent rifle for hunting and possibly for home defence (if you can duck down inside to reaload or grab another weapon). I probably wouldn't want it as a weapon of war though.
Thanks, Karl!
Makes a h&r 12ga look fast!
Modified Hopkins and Allen rifle from around 1970s. Added longer brass trigger guard and wood panels on side of barrel. Same patch box , same breech, same sights. Would a civil war rifle fire #11 caps? Been shooting mine since 1973. Serial number is 01776 believe it or not.
Seems pretty odd today, but I'll bet in the days two army lines standing apart and volleying at each other this seemed like a ridiculous advantage, being able to lob two volleys in the first part of the battle
Doubt they had that many... Historical references of these style of guns is pretty slim and rare.
I would like to see a comparison of shooting for speed and accuracy with this and other musket type rifles of the time. It would be interesting to see if you could shoot 6 or so targets at medium distance faster with this or with a more modern musket.
It'll be the same sustained rate of fire but it's faster for 2 shots.
Sometimes you need a second shot as fast as possible, other times you're dead.
Almost no one loaded a musket directly from a flask during the Civil War.
Cartage for the win.
3:56 a decently reliable way to tell if you have an air space (aka, a pipe bomb)
is to "toss" the ram-rod down..... letting go of it before it hits the ball.
if it bounces back up, its 98% sure its seated against the powder charge
again..... use a starter (because if ya just use the ram rod..... it can break.... and then ya spear your hand clean threw)
then use the ram-rod..... push it down
then pull the ram-rod up about 6 inches..... and "flick" it back down the bore
if it doesnt bounce... or only bounces off the ball a little bit
you have an air gap (again.... this is an EXPLOSIVE condition)
but if you flick it down..... and it bounces back like it hit a "bouncy ball"
your seated, loaded, and ready to cap and fire
or, if you ONLY use the same powder charge and balls....
mark the ram rod with a line..... right at the crown of the barrel
if the line is above the end of the barrel.... its a NO-GO
but if the line is in-line or below the end of the barrel..... your good to cap and fire
I feel like the troops equipped with these rifles would have realized that the second shot isn’t worth the long reload and only use one barrel.
Second shot in case you get bushwacked
Or ya know just use one barrel and reload the second after the battle
Depends on the application this would have been fielded for... This doesn't strike me as "give Private Target McStumpy over there the swivel breach we got." No this strikes me as either a skirmisher or sharpshooters weapon. Something for a get in fast and get out, or a hide and look for somebody with stars on his uniform and give him lead poisoning.
The first reload isn't much faster than double reload - it's the reloading way that is significantly slower since these can't use minié balls _nor_ paper cartridges (though why you couldn't have ready-measured charges in paper pouches + a ball all ready to go escapes me). Keeping a second shot in reserve does sound like a reasonable thing to do though, especially in a unit that might have these and regular one-barrel muzzleloaders. Keeps everyone firing volleys at similar rates.
So I imagine these were really just 'Pvt. McStumpy' rifles, issued out because 'it's what we got, private! Now, march into line, hop to it, get moving moving moving!'
Accuracy doesn't seem to be anything to write home about either, or Karl at least left it out of this equation. So not a marksman's weapon as such, I guess.
Interesting video! I have never seen one of these in a Confederate context before. I am not surprised given the shotguns, squirrel rifles, flintlocks and some of the other trash the south used before they got a reliable supply of Enfields.
It would be interesting if you could do a segment on some of the other foreign rifles, such as the Austrian Lorenz, that both sides used until better weapons were on hand.
Nice one Karl 👍👌
Under the stress and chaos of combat, I would be extremely concerned about accidentally pouring a double charge down one barrel. That said, I love the inventiveness of these early repeating rifles.
"have what you can bring" aka "run what you brung"
Having a couple of those on the line for each soldier could mean really good firepower
No wonder so many soldiers died during the Civil War. They had to go through so much just to reload their rifles while in the line of fire.
Lock, stock, and two smoking barrels!
Short starters are a 20th century creation, to the best of my knowledge on the subject.
Hi Karl,
I'm a Patreon supporter and totally appreciate your channels content. Thanks for doing a video on a black powder muzzle loader. I'm an avid black powder shooter from the land of the persecuted gun owners in Canada. We appreciate your freedoms. Our government just banned some of my guns and classified them as prohibited. When it comes to gun legislation they have there heads up there butt.
"Single-shot muzzle loaders are obsolete"- Ian's Ancestor circa 1860 (probably)
Great vid as always
Ah yes, in times of desperate struggles, this led to interesting ideas that would set the stage for bigger innovations.
War has historically been the biggest catalyst for innovation. At the start of WWII, most countries were still flying biplanes, 5 years later the Germans had viable jet airplanes.
This was actually more of a hunting arm then it is a military arm. Swivel breach guns go back quite a ways, usually with nobility and the like. Never made in any significant numbers.
Not bad for a sniper rifle during the period if it's accurate enough. One shot, then scoot and find another firing position was a common tactic because of black powder smoke giving away the snipers position. Having the other barrel as a back-up for a quick follow-up shot, or for self-defense when moving would be beneficial.
I would love to have one of these for Black Powder deer hunting
Huh, I have never heard of such a thing. Very interesting.
My cousin's father-in-law hunt's elk with a swivel breach flintlock.
I feel like the 1-2 powder charge for each barrel would be easy to mix up under stress, dump too much in one and too little in the other.
Thays a very cool mechanism
There was a black & white Western/Adventure film in which a rifle like that was use..I just can't think of the name at the moment.
Not sure this thing gets you any more than just having a fixed side by side musket rifle like the Kodiak from Pedersoli.
I would think caping the bottom barrel first then the top one would speed up the reload by cutting out a swivel move
Question from a non-shooter: What would be the advantage of this over a side-by-side type or musket/rifle? Or is that something I made up?
Maarten De R. I suspect you are thinking of a shotgun. Although I’m sure there’s an exception on forgotten weapons, rifles/muskets don’t tend to be side by side.
typical side-by-side shotguns have their barrels canted towards the central axis very slightly, so if you put infinite rods in both barrels they will intersect at some distance. this hampers accuracy at range and would be detrimental to a rifle, or a non-rifled weapon firing one bullet instead of many. I expect the reason for the over-under design is to increase "magazine capacity" without compromising the accuracy of each individual barrel. you could see this as a sort of revolver.
Double rifles are a real thing, this swivel breach may be cheaper to make and assemble than making two lock mechanisms, one for each barrel.
Two things come to mind: This way you have one sight picture. A common problem/factor of side by side shotguns for example is that the two barrels are not exactly parallel to each other. They both tilt inwards slightly, so that you can use the same sight for both. Their idealized bullet trajectories basically form an X, the meeting point of both being typically at the range the weapon is sighted in for. That's fine for a shotgun for relatively close distances, but not ideal for hunting or precision weapons. If you instead arrange the barrels in perfect parallel, you either have one sight that doesn't quite work for two barrels, or two pairs of sights that you have to switch between shots.
The other thing is cost (and maybe weight). With a percussion side by side you need two locks, or some thingamajig that stops both barrels from firing at once if you somehow manage with one lock. Locks are the main mechanism with the springs and all that, plus you have to engineer it so the trigger switches between the two locks. Or you need two triggers, which is simpler and many hunting weapons opt for that solution. The turning mechanism of the two barrels just requires a mechanism to lock them in place and a part to swivel on. That can be cheaper. Also you can end up with less parts in general, therefore reducing weight.
But for civilian weapons, which can generally be more expensive that military ones, the first point about the sight arrangement and aiming is probably more important.
That was my thought as well -- this is no better than a side-by-side or over-under two barrel rifle with the addition of a shaft that can seize up or go out of alignment.
I thought it was a mud test based on the thumbnail. My heart skipped a beat